Rob Lee: Welcome back to the Truth in His Art, your source of conversations connecting art, culture, and community. These are stories that matter, and I am your host, Rob Lee. Today, I am thrilled to welcome back my next guest, a New York based interdisciplinary artist, Professor and researcher. He merges archival and contemporary imagery through photography, film, and collage, exploring themes including nationalism and indexicality.
His work has been exhibited at Rotterdam Photo Festival, Lincoln Center for the Performing Arts, and Photoville, and he's been commissioned by the New York Times and Google, among others. Please welcome back to the program, Isaiah Winters. Welcome back to the podcast.
Isaiah Winters: Bro, I am so grateful to be here. Thank you. It's been many years, like you said, and a friend. That means a lot to me, man, and I feel the same exact way.
And it's kind of tough to be like, oh, it's been a couple of years since we've officially been on the pod together because, you know, we keep in touch and definitely keep an eye on what each other's doing. So I'm honored to be back. I feel like so much has changed. So much has just blown up in your career. I want to talk about some of these things as well. And I've been grateful to, you know, have a few things change on my end. And wow, what a time, man. What a time for us to be talking and what a time for us to find ourselves just trying to live, just trying to survive in this country.
Rob Lee: Yeah, man. Back in the mix. And yeah, you know, it's probably at least twice a year. I try to make it up there to NYC, and I'll hit you up like, yo, what's good? Coffee? What are we doing? But and, and I was actually remarking with a friend earlier about that. I'm like, hey, you know, I'll go out of town and, you know, I'll ping my people like I'm up here for like three hours.
You got like 15, you got 30 and you always pull ups. I definitely appreciate that. And just all the conversations we've had in the last, last four years and in that sort of vein. So let's talk about it over the last four years since that last conversation for folks who may not be dip. But they should go back and listen to your first interview. But for folks who are dip, could you reintroduce yourself to the listeners and give them like, you know, sort of a quick synopsis of what you've been working on recently?
Isaiah Winters: Absolutely, man. So, you know, in that time, excuse me, I have finished up my MFA. So the last time we chatted, I was kind of in the process of finishing up my MFA at the new school Parsons kind of was my dream school to go to and get my MFA into top. So the photography just really kind of up my knowledge and things with respect to like contemporary works and the history of the medium and the archive and all these different things, you know, and I think around that time things were, we were almost on track for things to start opening up.
And so, you know, with vaccines and whatnot, I definitely got to explore more of the city and kind of work through a few different projects, have finished up that degree and I'm now teaching at the new school at Parsons full time in the photo department. So that's been huge. It's been crazy. That process of getting a full time position at a university like that, I am so grateful and it was absolutely brutal and nuts. It went on for months.
It was like never ending. But now it's interesting to see how things are done, you know, from a different perspective. And I've been adjuncting for a few years and doing that and kind of teaching at different universities.
So it's good to kind of have a home right now in that space. And, you know, as far as the work is concerned, definitely came to a sort of conclusion with a lot of the this land is your land project mixed media kind of dealing with the history of the national park system and the ways in which, you know, these lands have been segregated or the ways in which indigenous communities have been removed from them and trying to relate some of these themes to things we are seeing like right now, you know, who kind of mentioned the fact that we're in 2025 and every day is a different journey that I think we're dealing with or like trying to process. So, you know, outside of working at the school and kind of teaching, I am trying to be out in, you know, these streets and in Baltimore DC and whatnot and document some of this craziness that we're seeing.
So, you know, ever since the election season started and we started having, you know, all that going on the pro-Palestinian youth movements and protests on university campus here in New York, the things really kind of exploding out of Columbia. I've been in a lot of these places and then just, you know, taking photos, video and getting what I can. Just keeping track of this crazy rise of fascism that we, you know, I believe that we are seeing a bit on track for and just the ways in which, you know, everyday police officers are kind of playing into these systems and kind of getting us to where we are now and everyone's kind of just doing, you know, as they're told in a way. So, yeah, just kind of keeping an eye on that constantly exploring researching. I'm also working on a really interesting project, at least interesting to me at this point, about love itself and the establishment of this like white suburban myth that we have here in the U.S. and how the Levitt family and kind of their zoning and housing and changes to these ideals of America kind of like shaped a lot of things and how a lot of service members, particularly black service members were denied the ability to get some of these homes that were subsidized by their GI bills and whatnot and how we kind of get into institutional racism and structural racism within like the housing industry, you know, and the history of that stuff.
And in fact, so it's a lot to dive into, you know, a couple of years, but that's kind of the gist of things. And, you know, all of this work is obviously on my website. So we'll talk about that later.
Rob Lee: Yeah, absolutely. And thank you for that. And I wanted to, I try to find myself letting the guest cook a little bit more. Let me let me step back. Let me let me not chime in. And it's like that game of like verbal double Dutch, right? Right. Right. So within in a in a feeling, I was hearing pieces of it a little bit.
They put it in the last five years. Have you refined or altered your creative process? So that's counting, you know, sort of before you and I had the conversation, but also it's a big chunk of time since like, how is, you know, sort of your process change or been refined and or even your artistic vision?
Isaiah Winters: No, that's a great question. And, you know, I think finishing up that degree, and this is in no way in me saying that everyone needs to go out and run and get an MFA within your discipline.
Right. I just think for me, I know going into it, there are a few areas that I felt I was lacking in and almost just like an intellectual rigor that I had to be held to a standard of like, I got to get this thing done. I had all these projects that I was sitting with or ideas I had. And it's like, whether it's the not having the confidence or just not necessarily knowing where to go for the proper references or resources.
I just wasn't sure what to do. So finishing that up in 2022 helped me in a ton of ways because not only did I kind of really learn to refine some of my research tendencies or like take more risks. I left with a confidence just in like knowing how to start with ideas, start with a base concept and explore that quite a bit. And from a number of different ways, that was really something that helped transform my practice quite a bit. And then exploring, like diving into other spaces that maybe I had an interest in like sculpture, collage, performance, kind of like playing around in some of these other spaces that I didn't necessarily associate with photography to begin with. But like just seeing how that has expanded my practice. And then really like embracing video more. I know for years I was reluctant to it just because of the sheer amount of like work it takes, you know, when it comes to filmmaking, but seeing as in I teach it now, I teach theory as well as kind of filmmaking and documentary filmmaking and experimental stuff.
I really had to like hold myself accountable and dig into it more. So been spending a lot of time learning analog filmmaking as well as expanding my like knowledge in the digital space. And I'm loving shooting 16 mil right now. I had the opportunity to shoot 35 mil.
Shout out to Steve from Montanowara here in New York City. But that was kind of like a bucket list thing for me. So it's been nuts to move through all these spaces and just be learning from experts in all these different fields. Like I consider myself really blessed and lucky. And, you know, I'm learning from a lot of these, a lot of my peers.
Rob Lee: That's great. And, you know, that sort of continued pursuit for knowledge and learning and even the being a being a professor and matriculating through that process. And, you know, I can say, and we've talked about it like off, off mic before, sort of my experience and playing as an educator for the last year plus.
And you have to revisit those things. You're like, I'm a master in this area. It's like, no, you have to read now. And it's something about it when you can learn something. It's a forget the name of the process, but you can learn something.
You can write something once you're able to teach something or paraphrase something. Now it's now sticks. And you can't be effing either. It's like, well, you just do this thing. It's like, no, you have to explain this to someone who's not done it or who haven't done it a million times.
Isaiah Winters: Yeah. Or even, I mean, I'll just add in, or you're explaining it to a group, maybe 90% of them have never done it, but then there's 10% that have done it a bunch of times. So you're also like, okay, I'm not BS anything because one of these students might mess around and call me out.
And I will say you are not playing at being an educator, bro. You've been doing some awesome things in that space. And like, I'm excited for that. I'm always, you know, me, I'm always talking to friends like, oh, would you consider teaching? Do you want to teach? Because certain people just have this like demeanor about them, where you kind of want to hear them talk through things. And I feel like that's been one of the best things about teaching.
It's just like, when you find a topic or you find a person and you connect them with another person, you see like those sparks just go off and those ideas start generating. It's like, there's nothing like it, you know?
Rob Lee: I 100% agree. Um, yeah. And thank you for that. Like it says, you know, we're coming up on sort of my, uh, third foray into, uh, you know, it's just like high school college and, you know, it's just really, really cool and I'm trying to get too big of a head about it, but also, you know, I'm naturally modest. But also it's definitely a thing that it's just like, I take pride in, I care about it and, you know, I, I get made fun of a little bit, you know, my people. That's like, there's mine. We have a, we have a, um, you know, Joe Giordano, right? He's like, what's going on co-worker? I was like, I just settled out.
Isaiah Winters: Oh man. That's the dude. I also just got his, uh, his new book. Yeah. Joe is a guy. I like Joe. I like Joe a lot. He's a dude. Yeah. I'm going to be sharing some stuff about it, but I love it. Yeah. I love it.
Rob Lee: Oh yeah. So I want to, and this is almost a good segue because of some of the stuff that, that he's done a few years back, um, probably that, that 2021. And, um, you know, sort of what I've, you and I've talked about a bit, some of the, just travel, I'll say, I'll say, you know, travel and some of the work that you've done in this between Baltimore, DC, New York, and some of those tense political moments, you know, how has that been? And, you know, capturing these experiences firsthand, could you give us a bit of insight on like kind of what you were doing and what that experience was like? Because, you know, I've had folks on who've traveled and been in different parts of the community as this sort of rise of fascism or this reprice of fascism. Right. And happening. So from your perspective, give us the sort of, you know, your, your perspective.
Isaiah Winters: I mean, this is a, this is a huge one, man. As you know, it's, it's been, you know, it's been interesting. I think some context here helps because a lot of people may know, you know, me coming out of the new school or my association with that now, or maybe some of the like brand work or editorial editorial work I've done, you know, in Baltimore, a lot of association with the be more creative than like all of the awesome things we are able to do on that team. But a lot of people don't know that my undergraduate degree was in sociology. So, you know, this research background and this interest in kind of like people, but also organizations and cults and the ways in which kind of beliefs or and ideas are circulated. You know, it's always been fascinating to me. But this interest in the last like year plus of just turmoil and things happening in the U.S. It's been kind of wild, you know, because in a sense, as I start to cover more of these things, I think to, you know, the protests and the students encampments and things like that really, really showed me just how much of a disconnect there was between what I was seeing on the news and kind of what I was experiencing here every day. And again, you know, I briefly touched on this, but the fact that NYPD being invited on campus started up at Columbia really, and, you know, and the way the things have blown up there and professors are harassing students and, you know, protesting things and being disciplined at work. You know, there was just a lot of things that were popping up that seemed to go against a lot of the values that like we try to instill in these types of institutions are the things that we talk about being important. So kind of seeing the ways that like the police were responding, politicians that are dirty corrupt mayor Eric Adams, like all these people were in this space, but then, you know, crazy things that happen out here and none of it would be covered.
I think it brought back some of this interest that I had in unearthing some of these things, right? And again, speaking to systems and just like through this slow burn, we get to the situation where now people have just lost their their rights and they've lost their freedoms. And, you know, there's not really a more relevant time to be speaking about this, you know, the disappearing students and, you know, it's just it's a really crazy time. And I think in my readings and studies about kind of fascism and cult and whatnot, you can just see and also just spending so much time around a lot of these people at rallies and the inauguration, you know, the crazy day that stands out to me with the Madison Square Garden hate rally as many people have dubbed it.
And I would a million percent agree with that. I've never seen anything like it, you know, but you see kind of firsthand spending time in these spaces that like these are still human beings at the end of the day, you know, but something is just gone astray in my opinion. And like there's this constant chase to want to be right or to want to be on a winning team or associate with something.
And a lot of people kind of view Donald Trump in this case as it's like false idols. So seeing this rise of just like straight up violence and intensity from NYPD and like state organizations as well as this sort of creep up into extremism and loyalism that we're seeing in DC. It's just like a crazy time to be documenting this stuff, you know, I've definitely found myself just like, what am I doing here on a number of occasions being out? So it's yes, it's wild, man. It's wild out there.
Rob Lee: Yeah, man. A couple of comments. One, you know, I think in those, I think we had one of those text exchanges and you were saying where you were at. I was like, be good, my bro. That was literally what it was like. Keep an eye out.
Isaiah Winters: I appreciate you. I appreciate you. Like, no, it means a lot of people kind of reach out and just check in. And to me, it's like, oh, no, no, I'm good. But then I think about it and I'm like, oh, no, this is wild. Like it's just wild to be here right now. Right.
Rob Lee: And, you know, also I can't help but go for a low hanging fruit, you know, you know, you just think of the biblical moment, you know, just.
Isaiah Winters: Eric Adams, I can't because if we start with him, I will, I will spend the rest of the time not answering any questions and just digging into Eric Adams. This man is like my, he doesn't care about me. This guy's like my arch nemesis. I cannot stand Eric Adams. I am here for his downfall. I'm just, I'm waiting. I'm slowly waiting.
Rob Lee: I mean, some of the takes on it, I'm going to move to this other thing, but some of the takes on it, one of my guys was like, he's like, I hate him so much. It's like he's, it's like he's the antithesis of John Lewis, but he looks like. Really? Yeah.
And, and this is, this is the, the last thing I'll say as far as that, you know, your, your, your, your piece there. So, you know, I have the privilege of having my birthday be on the inauguration day. So what a privilege. Yeah. Wonderful.
I'll always take credit for Obama. That's the one running that I have, but I had an interview, a scheduling in DC that same week. So, you know, in the 20th had an interview scheduled on the 23rd. So I try to do my DC interviews and more of the interviews where I can be there in person. I think during these, these times and what I've learned over the 800 plus episodes, it's something about being there face to face with another person that just can't be replicated because, and, and, and it connects to this while walking down there, I've never been in DC in the week of an inauguration and all of this stuff that happens, barcades and all of this stuff was still up. But some of the signage, it's like this, this movie, I think it was like this movie about horror creatures that were coming out of advertisements. That's all I could see when I was walking there. These different people coming out of the woodwork who are, were kind of, oh, I'm, you know, not a, I'm neutral.
I'm a libertarian. It's just like, no, you're, you're doing a tour here and you're supporting this. It's just like we've, right?
And you've used sort of these cultural tentacles and sort of humor and some of these things are weird, right? As a way to gain some sort of traction. And that's what I think is aided in this, this loyalty and podcasters and this, the new media, if you will, have had a lot of backing and these sort of relationships are coming home to Roos and we see it scheduled like that.
See it in DC schedule for the next six to 12 months. And, you know, it is very telling as I was walking from Union Station to the recording location, it's about a 20 minute walk, but I like to, you know, I like to walk else we think and I'm just getting any signs and I'm like, yeah, all of this is cooked. This is just embedded here and it's garish and it's ugly and it's just like everyone is, you know, in that seal position, you know, just on all four, just wait. It's messy, bro. It's messy. It really is. And that's the thing, like, you know, as I see it in and, you know, sort of having things like even this conversation, I'm sure someone's going to parse through and it's like all of this DEI terminology, I can't believe the flag, this podcast and it's just like, it's encroaching on even freedom of speech, the thing that you guys claim to care about.
Isaiah Winters: So I could, and that's the thing, right? It's like, just say, what is DEI? Like, we all know what you're saying. Just you're not being subtle and it's so weird because, yeah, you're absolutely right. All these things that a lot of these, these right wing, right wing figures kind of advertise for or claim that they want is like total immunity to say what they want and do what they want and freedom of speech. Yet they kind of want to get people banned and fired and kind of use a lot of the same tactics that they tend to criticize. And that's the thing, right?
You just see this cognitive dissonance from supporters who are just like, I support this thing, but I'm going to do the exact opposite of that. And if you ask a why it's like, how dare you even ask me a why I'm just following my ex, which I don't even know what to call Donald Trump at this point. And, you know, he wants to be a king. He wants to be a strong man. I don't know what that being is at this point. And I'll leave him with that.
Rob Lee: So, and this is the next two are kind of follow-ups to it, right? So building on that experience and we were touching on the DEI part, which I feel has a specific color and personality attached to it.
Isaiah Winters: Yeah, it's weird, right?
Rob Lee: Yeah, yeah. So how have those experiences and, you know, you've lived 30 plus years as a black man in this country? I've now 40 years as a black man in this country. Like how has, I guess this in its almost concentrated way in the last year, leading up to sort of surprise, we're back.
How has that like been as far as how you navigate and interact within the world with sort of like being aware, like it's not even a, it's not even, they're not even trying to hide it as you're touching on this. Like we're anti-victory, anti what you might represent. We're anti-intellectual. Right.
Isaiah Winters: You know, it's tough because I feel like my views on this are shifting. Whereas in the, you know, maybe 2020, the few years following that, and even a little bit before that, we'll, if we think of like Pete's again and all this craziness as it, as it began and, um, forward-channeling and whatnot, right? I always kind of had this idea and this is something that I really started to think about more as I separated from the Air Force and moved, you know, more back into what we call civilian life. But the fact that like my identity or like me being welcome in certain spaces is conditional. So like when I was in the Air Force and I wore that uniform and I walked through an airport, I know, well, I'm not going to get as many racist looks as I would, I would get if maybe I just had on like my hoodie and sweat pants, like I would. And the other day, like white people are going to leave me alone or people are not going to take a second, you know, double take at me or think that I'm up to something. And I think, you know, once I stopped wearing that uniform and started to think about a lot of these things and also just like criticize or think of the things that I am critical of, of even my own time and service or things that I was asked to do, it's just this like uncomfortability. And it makes me think of, you know, even my, my childhood and a lot of cases.
When I finally moved to Maryland with my family, um, and going to schools and being the only black kid in the classroom, it's very much this idea of, you know, code switching or doing what you have to do just to kind of move or survive day to day in these spaces. Um, in the last year plus or just like in documenting a lot of these things, all of those feelings are starting to come back, right? And it's like, it's not enough that I'm a professional or I'm this or that. Like when you're in these spaces or you're at a Trump rally or the inauguration, for example, like all of that is gone and people feel so emboldened, especially in a place like DC now, like you're saying, just to say what they want and do what they want and make threats against women and make threats against people of color and not just say, but say the word that we know and say it to me, you know, and so to kind of hear these things and experience them, I think it's just bringing to the forefront a lot of the doubts or, um, issues that I already had with this country to begin with. It's just now that these things are out front and censor, it's like, okay, we know who to avoid, but when we get to a situation where it's like, now we have to avoid everyone or like this is so predominant, like people just feel comfortable saying, DEI this woke that. Like, we know what they're trying to say.
So like, why are so many people comfortable saying this now? You know? So I think there's a temperature check that like is being done, but also continues to need to be done, you know, moving forward. And also, I just don't think that we have the leaders, especially in the Democratic party right now that we need to be asking these questions and having these conversations. I don't know.
I don't know. It's a big thing, but like Hakeem Jeffries to me is probably one of the biggest losers in history. Like, honestly, I can't believe how much of a failure this dude has been, but, you know, you can take that back to money or other situations and kind of figure out how we get to a situation like this.
Rob Lee: Yeah, no, no, that's, that's a good point. And going, going back to, you know, one of these things that I've observed in the last sort of years, well, that kind of relates when it comes to doing this or pursuing funds or pursuing opportunities.
It's just sort of weird. Where do I fit? I'm a six foot four, 250 pound black man. All right. There are certain rooms that I'm asked to come in and I'm confused.
I'm invited, right? I'm confused with someone else because I might not look a certain way. Oh, we thought you were this in person.
It's this kind of weird subtlety of you showed up on time and professional. You can't be that black faster. It's a weird right to be in. Or when I'm in sort of a black environment and I have those connections, it might be a college I went to, it might be sort of, here's the step by step of why we should have a conversational connect.
I don't know if you're black enough, bro. It's sort of that weird dynamic that sits there. And I've almost just tried to pull myself and extract myself from it of being, I don't know, in a way that doesn't quite make sense.
I'm like, what are you guys driving at? And I don't, I don't really get it. I don't really get it at times. And I've only seen it really when I've tried to put myself out there a bit more, making it an effort to do things more publicly. And I have conversations with certain, you know, outlets locally who want to collaborate and I can see what it is. It's, you're trying to find a way to exploit me because you don't have black folks really following and buying what you're selling.
So I try to use me as a shortcut to do that, but I'm not whatever that is that you think, you know, that you're going to be able to sell through. And it's very, it's very interesting. And sometimes it could be deceptive where I go into some of these rooms that it's just like, all right, I know I'm here as a bit of token, as I must suppose, and then when I go into the rooms that I'm like, I have this connection and I feel like welcome and I feel good, but for something, for some reason, the follow-up isn't there or I'm deemed as bougie or what I do is a little too high level. It's very odd.
Isaiah Winters: Yeah, you're always, you know, we're always adjusting and having to kind of adjust ourselves. And that's the point that it gets tiring at a certain point where you're just like, you know what, I'm going to work with myself or for myself or with just a few people that I trust and try to get something done. But, you know, it's, it's just reality and it's unfortunate because there's so many different boxes and shapes that we have to kind of put ourselves into not only survive, but like thrive within this country. And so, you know, bringing it back to that, but also kind of what we were talking about before, it's just a really hard time right now to see all of these things that people have fought hard for or these things that, you know, we are really trying to do to make it a lot easier for those coming up behind us, whether through mentorship or just literally connecting to opportunities. All these companies rolling back their policies and inclusion and it's just like, what are we doing here?
Like what is the end goal of this look like? Or individuals or those who can be deemed as other, which, you know, that definition is going to change depending on where you are. And like in a lot of cases, people will have to make considerations, not just about like who they associate with, but like where they live, what state they live in and like that's going to become more and more important. So, yeah, it's tough and it's serious, serious conversations that like I think people will continue to have living for it. It needs to be discussed.
Rob Lee: I think to some degree, and to be far moved to this next part of the question. Yeah. Some degree there's this shell shock that just like you guys knew what was happening, like this is kind of what it is. So sort of prepare and then I get really hooked on how we go about messaging.
So during the one of the early sort of retail blackouts, I was in New Orleans from Artigraw and I'm like, I don't know if I can't spend money today. It isn't going to be a challenge, but it's sort of the thing where we have to be a bit more organized, but simplistic in what the messaging is. Because I, you know, heard in red that there were different interpretations of what was meant by sort of this blackout, if you will, of buying versus buying from there. And it's just like right there, the message starts to kind of kind of fall apart because people are interpreting it differently. And, you know, it's just like, how do you simplify it?
And then also having people who, because you have a data background, I have a data background who can show like, this is actually the impact of this action. So the sort of negative ROI, if you will.
Isaiah Winters: Exactly. Exactly. No, you're spot on, bro. And that's the thing I work now and being part, being full time and working at the news full, I have had the opportunity to work with a ton of communication designers and graphic designers, you know, and that messaging, even the ways that you can get out, like there's so much good that can be done with, you know, designers and artists going out and just helping an organization come up with those statistics or in a way that's like very digestible. So I think you're spot on, like the messaging and these things need to be a little bit more direct, but also kind of, I guess, universal enough that people can kind of follow whatever those set rules are, because it is tough. It's like, if you're traveling, okay, maybe you can try to do this or, but I heard of people like maybe just buying a ton of shit from a place like the day before or the day after. And it's like, okay, you probably just spent more than you would have if you had just purchased on that day.
So you might actually be doing more damage than good. So it's interesting to me, you know, I'm watching all this stuff. I'm watching the stock market crash right now and the Fed and all these different things. And it's very, I think if anything has the opportunity to like move people, I think it's their money. And I think it's a lot of these people, boomers and whatnot. And, you know, I'm not even going to get into Gen Z's move to the far right, but let's stick with boomers and above. You know, watch it because they would have 401ks and retirements and things to keep an eye on. I think as more people start to see these effects, it will be easier to try to maybe get them back. But it is a weird time and it's tough. 100%.
Rob Lee: So in it, let's talk a bit about how when you're contorting and figuring out where to fit, how, you know, like, what's the noise, the distraction, the hooks and how do you avoid them and recover when you're hooked. You know, I'll say, as I give you a moment of process here that, you know, it was a lot of stuff that I didn't like with how this season rolled out and how it was planned.
And in fact, I said to myself, I didn't say it out publicly, but I said to myself, if Kamala won, I was probably going to, this is probably going to be the last season anyway. But since we're here and almost at this return, I'll say, oh, and they're on this DEI or whatever. Oh, I'm going to double down.
Isaiah Winters: We back with a massive thing.
Rob Lee: But the thing with it, because of you see who's sort of running this and, you know, that sort of space, because I think margin largely podcasting and that sort of independent media isn't as regulated. It could be demonetized, but it's not as regulated as right now.
It's no FCC for sake of argument, right? So with that, you know, folks are allowed to do certain things, certain stories and certain creators have pushed a bit more. And I'll cite the way to kind of combat that when you're hooked instead of complaining is try to do something that is the antithesis of it. So if all of this is online and no real connections really try to push for the real connection is what I've made an effort to do.
So if this is like less interviews, but sort of more person to person really connect, really use the community, leveraging that community. That's the real thing, which will, I think, last past all of this. Right.
Isaiah Winters: No, and I think you're doing the right thing. It's tough, you know, because we're people are tired. We're tired of being, you know, the only one waging a lot of these these battles and these fights. And I think, you know, we know when the election results were just starting to come in or when they were about to come in in the like weeks leading up to it. There's this whole discussion of like, well, black men, maybe you're going to let down Kamala and they don't want to vote for her and all these things. And it's like, I couldn't, I can't speak for everybody. We are not, you know, we are not a monolith, but like, I didn't know any black men that I was talking to that we're not going to support Kamala. So it's like, again, where are these narratives coming from? And it's also maybe trying to create division between black women and black men.
So, you know, there's a lot of there's a lot of things that I've seen that Nikki question where these ideas or where these stories are coming from. You know, but it's we're tired. And I think I hear you when you say like if Kamala won this would have been, you know, you kind of can come to a nice conclusion. Look, I've been doing this work.
Maybe I'm interested in moving to another project. And I tell you, man, I feel the exact same way where it was like, damn, I'm like, I wish she had won for a million different reasons. But one of them selfishly enough was like, I could take a break. Like, let's, I want to step back. I want to work on some of my more abstract projects and ideas and maybe dabble in some other things. But we find ourselves in this point of crisis right now where it's like, if you have the ability to do anything, if you can use whatever your creative outlet is, or your work or your pastime, like whatever it is to be active and do what needs to be done or like, share these messages. And I feel like you have a responsibility to do that. Like not everybody's going to be able to engage in the same way.
But like something has to be done and I hear like on doubling down. Respect to you. Like, you know, I'm so serious about that because yeah, we just have to talk to people and like, you know, in a lot of situations, I found myself really burning out covering these protests and running around the city and I've an NYPD swing baton in my head. And I'm like, I'm getting threatened me and like go to do, you know, they're kettling us and everything.
When a lot of the protests are going on and things are still happening here, but like during the height of it. Oh my God, they didn't care who you were. They didn't care what you look like what you did what credentials you had or not. NYPD was so ill equipped and so just like militaristic.
They were swinging on everybody. So like, you know, I got injured that those first few weeks and I think for me, like I said, not everybody can engage in the same way. I had to kind of listen to friends and family at a certain point and just take a step back or it's like something's happening on this campus. Like, I can't cover that. I just need for whether it's mental or physical.
I can't be running up and down New York streets. You know, every other night while all of this is going on. So like really taking those pauses. Because I didn't feel it. It's like I didn't feel that burnout until I sat down and was like, I don't even want to touch it. It's, you know, it gets really tough. So it's definitely been a situation where I'm trying to adjust and like respond to burnout symptoms as I notice them. But when you see so much going on, like you said, it's kind of you want to go as hard as possible because we feel the weight of it. And we also understand like we've been fighting for these small gains. I cannot sit here and let Elon must be the reason that, you know, all of these things are changing for me in a lot of ways. So it's hard, but that balance is something that like I'm always trying to work out. Yeah.
Rob Lee: Yeah. I remember being one of the last times that you and I got together and I was up there with a situation that happened. And you're like, bro, I'm supposed to be off today. This BS just happened. I got to run over there. And that was sort of the beginning, you know, of because it was beginning of last summer or something.
I think it was May when I was up there. And I was like, Oh, and seeing all of the protests, all of the demonstrations, all of the activity. Well, this is different up here. And I was like, this could be bad.
And then sort of some of the things you've touched on in subsequent months and you've touched on in this conversation. It's just like, Oh, yeah, this, this could go left. And it's as the, as you like to say, it's not even hot yet.
Isaiah Winters: Exactly. Yeah. And no, you're right, man. It was like end of April when a lot of it or yeah, end of April last year when a lot of the stuff, the Columbia started happening and then it kind of just spread throughout the city over the next couple of months. Yeah.
Rob Lee: So I want to switch gears a little bit to mostly education. So I going back to that a bit. Educator and film lover, because you know, we train notes on film. You've been on a podcast and you know, I talked about film a little bit. You may have been on a few episodes.
Isaiah Winters: Well, I need to be, bring me back, bring me back over there too. I'm not biased in any way.
Rob Lee: You always love me. You always love me. How do you see the increasing prevalence of like AI, you know, imagery, you know, impacting the role of photography and visual storytelling? Like, you know, we're a little bit removed from the Oscars will have you and there's different uses of AI.
I don't know if in the visual component, but definitely audibly it was mentioned with a thing. Adrian Burdy's role will have you and the brutalism. But sort of what is your, your take as someone who educates and who practices in the visual medium?
Isaiah Winters: Yeah, no, no, that's it. It's a great question. And I think AI is tough because it's one of those situations where I'll bring back, I'll bring in like a nerdy professor photography analogy. And I talk to my students about this all the time, you know, it's this idea of like, okay, it's great that we're sitting here and we're learning about theory and we're thinking about the ethics of this medium and really, really trying to get at the root ideas behind the use of AI versus like not using it. But in the same ways that like everyone has a camera in their pocket via smartphone or small device or DigiCam, whatever it is, you know, not everybody has taken the time to think about these things or think about representation or like what happens or if I'm creating AI images, where do those things go and like who has the rights to them. So there's a lot of conversations that just aren't being hot about AI.
And even kind of thinking about like the brutalists and I think there was a couple of other films where they may have mentioned, you know, AI being a part of the process. It's tough. It's a slippery slope because it's like, okay, where do we kind of draw the line on this if someone is editing a script or editing for grammar and they're using AI like, it's a tool, how are you using it.
So it's really tough. Whereas like I kind of scare my students to being like, this is the this might lead to the end of our careers as we kind of know them. But at the same time, if you're using it to, you know, for certain type of tool or to make a process, you know, a little bit smoother. There are ways where I can see it kind of freeing up time for other things.
Unfortunately, the reality that we live in is very much rooted in capital. And so a lot of the negatives I think will outweigh the positives as industries and corporations find ways to like not pay artists or to use AI to supplement what they were doing. And you know, it's like a lot of this information, a lot of these things are being fed in without the permission of the creators or the authors or the artists. So it's like, you know, whether you know it or not, your work is being fed in and like, we know that we don't return the conditions.
We know that people are not really thinking about the fact that they're giving the rights to their images to meta or to Adobe or things like that. So it's really tough. Like I definitely don't want to scare my students away or scare people away from AI. But I think it's one of those tools that we really need to be careful because even in like some of the films, I feel like one day I'd read a report that was like, AI was used for this and that and that and that. And then the next day it's clarified. Oh, it was only used for this. And the next day, well, it was used for that, but then it may have been used for this other thing. It's like we don't even we're not even really able to define what uses are appropriate or not.
So it's it's interesting. I mean, I think we're at a point of serious change, but I also want to give as much kind of respect and shout out to the writers and actors and directors. I know the DJ kind of signed the deal a little bit earlier, but like all those people who protested and really stood sit on business and they stood firm when it comes to like the writer strike and the acting strike and things like that to make sure that AI clauses and kind of protections were added to their contracts.
I think that's huge because there's nothing that is more like gross to me than thinking about the fact that like Disney or Amazon, for example, could like digitally own the rights to a certain actor that they've worked with and then reproduce them and make them digital like we're moving into like Tron territory here. Like where what is this and you know, so it's my complicated answer on AI, but I think it's if you use responsibly good. Our track record is not really showing that that's going to be the case though, in my opinion.
Rob Lee: Yeah, I think that's a good good point. I think it's a the ethical use how it's being used. Is it being used to improve certain processes that you know kind of important but monotonous and then you have other folks like you know who I think like to get into the weeds of the sort of busy parts that the challenging parts the editing pieces of their work like Robert Eggers is like I got to be in there and you know, there are AI tools for even doing this is like oh well take the best parts now I don't know if I want to take that. And I think about it because we haven't really touched on it too much because it's been more talk about visual and I think that started maybe with like what is the like the sort of online generated art that the the the tokens will have
Isaiah Winters: you Oh yeah the crypto the was it like the crypto
Rob Lee: came Yeah, it kind of started with that it's like oh this is how arts traded and so on it's just like yeah these are weird hooks and I started thinking about there is the better part of 20 years 16 years of my voice as this change I've said all these different things that exist.
So for people who are putting out podcasts there I guess that is unregulated. So if someone wanted to build out something I want to get this accent, you know finally get that Baltimore accent right even though I don't quite have it right water water. We can we can do that and I take issue with it and I'll say before I move to this next question I'll say when you let it run amuck a little too much like going through and writing questions is really hard for me at times. Especially when I'm busy so there was a point where it was a little bit too much AI that was inserted in there since like I called it stems. I'll have like my idea.
This is a question I want to expound on. Give me something and I'm editing the AI versus the AI editing what I'm doing is how these questions got to come out because I'm losing my uniqueness my voice in there and I think that that has to be especially with something creative has to be at the forefront. We're always busy. We're always not getting our do and so on. But you know, sort of that convenience and that easy thing that's the easiest way to get into the back door.
Isaiah Winters: No, I mean, your spot on and again it's thinking about it as a tool that you can kind of work with versus something that you're just using to supplement doing the work yourself, which you know, it's just a mindset, I think for a lot of people.
Rob Lee: Yeah. Um, I got two more real questions I'm going to hit you with. So I think some artists don't like being observed. I look at it. I look at it like when you're at a desk at a desk job or something like that. Someone's just creeping over.
It's like, hey, what you know, they're not they're like, look, let me pump your brakes. Yeah. And I have a I have a checkered relationship with it because I'm like, yeah, do I got a boogie like why are you looking over here? And it's like, oh, you're really tall and you're taking up a lot of space.
Oh, I get it. You know, so for you for you're out there, you know, you're you're taking your capture. You're just a capturing moment. And I would imagine people are looking at you and seeing what you're doing. What does it take for you to get there because it's so alien and foreign to me. I don't like being looked at. I just was like, yeah, what are we doing?
So, you know, how does that work? And have you ever been apprehensive of like doing work taking photos doing work outside and having people just like, what you doing, bro?
Isaiah Winters: Oh, absolutely, man. I mean, it's when you're doing any type of like documentary or street. I started doing street photography and Baltimore, you know, 10 plus years ago, that's how I got.
I kind of like worked up my courage in that space. But when you're covering a lot of these things, especially political events and, you know, we see how much, you know, photographs can also be used now by like the police or FBI to track people down. There's a lot of conversations or like ethics, you know, about being out and capturing people on the street. So I try to follow like a few rules of my own and also make sure that I'm, you know, in public spaces and documenting, you know, people that are typically like of age and maybe can consent to their photograph being made like, you know, it's different for everyone. But for me, like, I don't photograph people's children. That's just something that I think could really set them off and like having, you know, Luke is a year and a half now.
And like, I would not want someone that I don't know photographing in. So that's kind of a thing that I stick to. But it is tough. I think that, you know, depending on the situation, you kind of dial things up or down, you know, some of these protests or the encampment destruction is by the NYPD where like the police are being violent and doing all different kinds of things. I'm going to dial it up to 10 and I'm going to be jumping and moving and kind of doing what I got to do and not necessarily be so worried about, okay, that I do this. It's more just kind of like about just documentation and getting what I can so that people can see this madness at this point. And I think that's going to be a big part of my work. I think that's going to be a big part of my work. I think that's going to be a big part of my work. And I think that's going to be a big part of my work. I think that's going to be a big part of my work. And I think that's going to be a big part of my work. I think that's going to be a big part of my work. I think that's going to be a big part of my work. I think that's going to be a big part of my work.
I think that's going to be a big part of my work. I think that weighs almost every single person. the problem of that every single person sits is against Eric Adams or the thing that he was accused of 10, 15 years ago. And so you're here because you have this unique perspective where other people might just be like, wow, I'm taking pictures of a mayor.
This is really cool. I'm like racing mansion like I'm going with that and you know there's certain situations where there's going to be a photographer there's going to be someone out there that is going to be the better person to tell a story or work on something or document a certain space or a group of people so I think for me I'm always trying to keep these things in mind and as long as I can kind of answer them those questions or justify them to myself then I go out and I feel okay. But there's always going to be situations whether you're somewhere new you know the cultural norms or I'm in a predominantly you know white space like you know all the time that I spent up in Montana and I'm just not going to see another black person and they're not going to see any other black people so it's like you're going to stick out. You're always as we kind of started this conversation speaking about down things up and down cold switching doing what you got to do to essentially like tell this story or get this get this thing out there. But it's a practice makes perfect situation like it never is perfect and I just I you know I get approached by people people are antagonistic towards me all the time and you just like try to explain to them. This is what I'm doing.
I'm not here to do XYZ whatever you're accusing me of this is this is who I am and like you hope that they accept that and they can walk away but sometimes people have words for you know and it is what it is. But following these threads is something that like I just it feels natural to me and I think having that fine arts background as well or spending these spending this time with all the visual references and the different things that kind of feel me. I just I use some of these things to my advantage and like you know we've talked about propaganda in the past and like visual imagery and how important that can be. I think I try to use images when I go and I'm documenting some of these things in a way that I know will work counter to a lot of the propaganda that's out there so it's like I don't mean I'm going to make my counter propaganda to what you were seeing on CNN or Fox News etc. And I think that works for people but these are all the things that I kind of do to try to fuel myself as I go to cover something or like I'm working on a new story.
Rob Lee: That's that's good and you gave me a few things I just typed down I think I'm going to steal that concept of like just working with film because it kind of gives you the parameters. I think I'm just like cassette tapes is like yeah you got to record this to a cassette tape go.
Isaiah Winters: Oh cassette tapes are worth that I'm actually working through an idea right now of a piece of I won't give too much of it away but it's definitely sensing around cassette tapes we'll have to talk about that.
Rob Lee: Yeah I'm looking forward to it. So I got I got this one last real question and this is sort of the the wrapping up also maybe the the panic forward if you will. You know I think I was sharing with you before I got started before we got started. You know the last time I was I was in New York I was at Orn Airfest and you know I'm observing just different people there were some live podcasts they were people that were making music and just changing their concept on storytelling. There was one educator who used opera to talk about switching up here in the speed in which you're talking and it was very insightful and I was just like really truly amazed by how some of these folks are doing storytelling and and crafting story. So from your perspective what was the last time that you were like truly amazed by you know maybe work that you've created and finished or maybe the work of others but what was the last time you were really like amazed.
Isaiah Winters: Oh man. Alright so I have there's so many different things I can name what I will say that I have kind of a more like museum centric MoMA response here so I'm a big fan of Christian Marclay video artists done a bunch of experimental video works but a work that he's done that I've you know I've studied and kind of reference quite a bit in my own classes but it's called the clock. And essentially this video piece is running you know at a certain period of time and MoMA whatever institution is playing at and this work is 24 hours long and kind of everything is synced up to clocks that appear in cinema. So it's not just like hey every minute you know you can name a time of the day and there's going to be a representation visually there. It's fascinating to see in person so that's something that I saw recently and like I spent almost two hours there and it's kind of a weird.
Meta thing because instead of looking at my phone or looking at a watch you always know what time it is because it's always appearing on screen one way or another. So that show just got extended I would highly recommend it to anyone that's interested in like photo or video or filmmaking it just has some of the best clips ever. You see this piece and you're like how did his mind put this together. Truly truly like incredible painstaking work and then kind of more on a personal side of things you know there's a bunch of photographers that I came up with and Baltimore and I've worked with some people like Michael Wood Ryan Rhodes you know Sean champion there's a lot of people that I've been inspired by through my career and I continue to have this like references kind of in my life and supporters of my practice. You know I've worked with Terry Henderson quite a bit who's an amazing writer and editor and curator and shout out to her Andrea Dixon I'm currently for the show just ended but I had a collage to collage pieces in a show at Micah layers recently so that was a lot of fun and I'm not usually the biggest you know person when it comes to speaking about my love for my own work.
But I was really grateful to see the work installed in their gallery and just a careful consideration and curation by Terry and Andrews team it just made it an incredible experience so that was a situation where I've been working on a piece or two pieces kind of centered around black representation within cinema and TV and like the idea of Uncle Tom character character or like a manly type figure in cinema and like how it's going to be. And all these stereotypes and representations have kind of you know multiplied themselves and came to be very everyday you know to a lot of people's depictions like assumptions about black people and we talked about D.I. and what that means now you know and woke it's crazy to see we're like a lot of these ideas are the ways people felt existed previously and maybe now like we said they're just a little bit more emboldened to share them. So I think for me showing that work and being able to be at the opening and do a subsequent panel and like talking to people that responded to it who also had had some of these ideas but it never kind of spoke about them publicly or like you know how to conversation with someone about them. It just makes it it makes it a really kind of important and like awesome experience. I'd say that was something that I experienced recently that was huge. And it definitely put things into perspective and like it's a it's a constant reminder of like why we do what we do.
And a lot of cases artists and creatives you know as you know for sure. You know we're just running around and we feel crazy in a lot of ways we're like we're working so hard to do this. I want this grant or I just need this this residency or this thing to like push the work forward or do something else and you know certain days you just like why am I doing this.
Why am I going through this stress. Does anyone care about this you know so even just having like one conversation about it with someone really puts things into perspective and like that fuels me for the next project that's always how I'm kind of moving.
Rob Lee: That's great and thank you. Thank you for sharing that is of course of course man. Good insight. I like sort of the back end almost is like with I think musicians run into sometimes the album cycle. It's like I never got the first one I'm going to use that to fund the next one and but you know getting sort of that that payoff from like oh this feels feels great. This is that it gives you the juice to move on to the next thing and you know yeah just that that experience I was describing being up there.
That gave me enough fuel and energy when you have those ups and downs those wax and then wanes of sort of just going through the not the motions but through the sort of process in the day to day of all of the stuff that you need to do but also making the stuff that you care about you hope other people at least have some interest in. Right.
Isaiah Winters: Absolutely man.
Rob Lee: So I got that's a wrap up of the real questions and thank you for indulging now. Of course. So where we're going at next is the rapid fire portion. Yeah for that.
Yeah for questions for you. You don't want to over thank them. You've been over here before you know how operate with boys. We get it. Yeah. So here's the first one. Okay. This goes back to kind of one of the things we were touching on but I'm curious if there was one thing that you could pinpoint where does your creative courage come from. Oh man.
Isaiah Winters: I create courage. I would say and I keep speaking to this references and things like that just kind of knowing the types of work that I'm trying to create to really kind of I find a lot of the courage in my own practice comes from learning from the past or studying the history and really kind of getting at the root ideas or like concepts behind certain things. So you know speaking about not necessarily just references within my practice but then like going out and trying to document you know or create a different type of propaganda like I mentioned.
It's just kind of in being studied and like what's been going on in the medium and what's already just there and like whether I want to do a remix of that or a spin of it or critique of it you know you need that backing and that background that kind of like feel that that confidence to move forward. Good.
Rob Lee: Thank you. Of course. When is art or in your case photography successful.
Isaiah Winters: Oh that's a good one. It's a tough one. I say when it creates something in someone whether that's like an emotional response or a negative response and anger response joy. I think photography you know it is a medium and we live in such a visual world where like everyone is going to respond to something differently. An image of a certain figure or a political figure or an actor or something is going to have a much different response of someone else than it is to me.
And then same thing you know vice versa. So I think when it kind of has some type of thing that it creates whether the message is like overtly political or kind of related to something else or maybe it's just an extremely beautiful image that people find moving. I think just the ability to create connection is why I love photography and like why the visual mediums really stick with me but I will say honestly this is kind of a hot take as much as I love photography and my BFA my my MFAS is photography excuse me. I think cinema just does something totally different and I'm definitely in that camp of there are so many ways that you can communicate and they just I think cinema gives you a lot more resources to try to connect with an audience or try to kind of convey a certain message. You just have more time with them and like more manipulation of the spaces you know.
Rob Lee: Yeah and you did funny you don't have these questions but the last two rapid fire questions I have are related to movies and cinema so it's really funny. So your movie guy with great taste on my my sad.
Isaiah Winters: I appreciate you that means a lot coming from you.
Rob Lee: Look man when I go on a lot of box I'm like all right what does that say. All right cool.
Isaiah Winters: Wild is on there though you never know. You never know. You do.
Rob Lee: You do the title like that's interesting five stars right there my guy. But whether it's you've watched recently or for the first time or rewatched what was the last movie that you like really enjoyed that gave you that five stars scratch that itch. Oh man.
Isaiah Winters: I'm about to like pull up my letter box. I think technically the last five star I gave and this is controversial because we were just talking about the it was the brutalist but I watched that in December. Okay the film that I just most recently gave five stars to it and this is this is kind of dark was actually a girl with a needle out of Denmark I believe one of the Oscar nominees for international film didn't win black and white incredible story it was moving it was troubling it kind of made me rethink a lot of things and like I don't want to give away too many of the things that I did. I don't want to give away too many spoilers but essentially the story follows this woman who's a factory worker.
This is post World War one and her husband has not returned from the war but they don't have official documentation that he was killed in action. So her life kind of starts to fall apart and you follow her character over the next. I want to say 1015 years or so as she starts working with another woman as a wet nurse so like that's all that I'll give away but that film kind of shook me to my core. You know I think my top ratings were like a Nora the brutalist and then the substance this year. But if I had seen that film sooner it would also kind of be in that top space that they said it's one of the darkest films I've seen. Honestly but I would highly recommend it. Just it's one of those perspective pieces where I'm like oh my God I feel like I just learned something about humanity and just about like survival but I wasn't expecting I went into completely cold. Good good doc films.
Rob Lee: Yeah you know I. This is one of those rare years where I didn't see many of the best picture nominees and yeah I was kind of like one of those weird years and you know my partner doesn't want to see it. Then I'm like all right cool I'm going to stick over here and watch the substance again or I'm going to find something or shutter because I get busy.
Isaiah Winters: Man shutter dope and I definitely watch the substance like through I think I watched that more than any of the other film nominees this year but. You know if it's not films like that or the girl the needle I think my fate for Amelia Perez is also futile in me and in a lot of ways to say it's kind of a similar to my feelings about Eric Adams or like I just need to continue pushing forward so that I can watch this you know in real time. This fresh out.
Rob Lee: All right so here's the last one. No excluding the film from this mix what's three must have item or must have experiences that make up a perfect day when you're going to the movie the movie itself doesn't necessarily matter. Okay. But what has to happen for that movie day to work for you what are three things that have to happen.
Isaiah Winters: Oh my gosh a movie day. Okay. In preparation or just solely at the theater maybe I'll give you like a combination. Okay so in preparation it is legal here so depending on the film.
I might need a little at a little adult tree. But really it's going to depend on the film and I love sci-fi I love thrillers like I love horror as well we were talking about shutter so kind of the something if if I want to get into a certain vibe I'm going to start with that. So I did that you know I am a AMC a list members shout out AMC sponsor sponsor this man sponsored this sponsor all the things that he does. Um.
This is super bougie but honestly bro I love it. They now let you like book your snacks in the app and have them waiting for you when you get to the theater. So I've been I've been having icy cups. Candy snacks what you name it just ready to go I roll in the theater I know my seats reserved I know I'm good to go.
I pick up my snacks and I just like settle right in you know I don't want any stress waiting in lines things like that so that's been good and then honestly just like no nothing lingering I can't have emails or tasks or things on my calendar where I'm like. Oh like I got to do this as soon as I get out of the movie like I need that stuff done I need that checklist done so I can fully focus on what I'm watching so I say those are like the three things for me. The film doesn't matter but if I'm watching your film and like I'm already going to like it. And all of those things happen for me in the right order and the right place you might you might mess around and get a five star stuff with some of those controversial reviews on letterbox you never know it could just been a great day. Everything could have been you know all the all the planets aligned for that film and for me.
Rob Lee: That's wonderful that is that's a great way for us to to wrap and that is. That's a good combo like that I did get when you have the right setup. It's just like I'm going into this to enjoy the movie you're in that space. So any final moments are two things I would like to do. I'd like to one thank you so much for coming back onto the podcast and catch you know. Thank you.
Yeah. And two I want to invite and encourage you to share with the listeners website social media any of that stuff you want to share so folks can stay up to date on what you have happening.
Isaiah Winters: Of course man of course so no seriously you know I know I popped in there for a second but thank you seriously for having me on. We have these chats but it's always good to kind of like formalize it and you are my favorite interview bro you already know this so kind of just working with you.
I'm just asking from you the questions that you have and I know that you're so thoughtful and considerate about the things that you're asking you're also not necessarily taking into account like what you just found out about someone in that week and a Google search like you really stay in touch with people and you know what's going on in their lives and their practices so I appreciate the intention there and the attention to detail as well. And outside of that you know people can find me in the usual places my website www.isaiarw .com. And then Instagram same thing Isaiah RW I need to be on there share more stuff I'm definitely working on a lot but I've been prioritizing the website and kind of connecting with others over social media right now so. Some new stuff coming on there as well as some kind of install pace of the recent works but those are the two places you can find me for sure and I encourage people to like any questions you're up here in New York you want to grab a coffee you want to go to a process you want to hear what's going on shoot me a DM shoot me a message and like it I'll try to I'll try to get back.
Rob Lee: And they have the folks I want to again think the great Isaiah winter is coming back onto the podcast and catch it up with me for Isaiah winter I am probably saying that there's art culture and community and around your neck of the woods you just have to look forward. .
