Rob Lee: Welcome to The Truth In His Art, your source of conversations connecting arts, culture, and community. These are stories that matter, and I am your host, Rob Lee. Today, I'm running it back, and I'm excited to welcome back a Grammy-nominated musician Guggenheim Fellow, improvisational vocalist, producer, author, speaker, and multidisciplinary fine artist. We first connected back in 2023, and I'm eager to catch up to see how his practice has evolved. So please welcome back to the podcast. Kokayi. welcome back to the podcast.
Kokayi.: My name is Kokayi. I'm an artist and musician, pre-manent, improvisational vocalist working in the liminal space between jazz and hip-hop, if you want to call it jazz, but all black music. A lot of my work is centered around demystifying culture, while at the same time celebrating culture, and then getting rid of the isms that exist within those parentheticals. I've been doing this for over 30 years as a professional musician, and then as an artist over the last 15, 20 years.
I started off doing graffiti when I was a kid, but got more so into visual art and just expanding on those things in terms of the art world, which is very similar to the music world, which is very similar to the podcast world, which is very similar to the music world, but very similar to the music world, and then you've got music and music and all of that kind of, I think, I think is really relevant. You're just being yourself. They don't understand, you know, the upheaval of white supremacist delusion. So when you operate in that space, it's very different.
Rob Lee: Thank you. And it's like, you know, like, again, it's almost like I can improv the whole thing, which would be right up your alley and probably the whole conversation where, you know, I play with this thing. I pride myself on being sort of like a lazy philosopher, right? And I had this idea that I've been kicking around and I say it in conversation on occasion. I feel like whenever there's an opportunity to do something that might be good, but may not be the biggest financial hit, I find that to make it seem like it's a big financial hit, we do this thing, we insert what I call artificial vibes. And it's just like, oh yeah, we're going to activate this space. That's like, you mean you're just going to use the space? Right. And I try to turn that off, which based on the sort of previous conversation, some of the, that we had before putting the mics on, just some of the challenges that kind of happened behind the scenes. I think that mentality, that thought process that I have, that might be why I'm not the person that people get along with in that. I might ask a question like, what is this?
Kokayi.: We actually doing? Right. Right. No, I mean, you know, continue.
Rob Lee: And, and I think, you know, like how you, you, you express sort of how all of these things are connected, because it's truly a web. And I think using art in its broadest sense, right? I think art tells you, like what you are as much, if not more, it tells you who you are. So in that vein, like, who are you when you, when you look at yourself through the lens of art, the art that you make, the art that you enjoy? Who am I?
Kokayi.: I am a black man that's existing under specific sort of conditions. That have been outlined for me. Right. And so I have to exist outside of the margins and boxes that are often built for people that look like me. Right.
And so what my through my art, my artist catharsis for me. Right. So I ain't making everything for everybody. Like this is not for you to get, you know, I hope you get some healing, but I'm healing through this. Right. I hope you get some answers, but I've got answers through this.
Right. So I, a lot of the work that I make is, it's, it's about me trying to, to, to reckon, reconcile within myself a lot of the things that I see. And in that process, holding the mirror to oneself, there's other people that might get caught in that reflection. And so that's how I look at it. That's, that's who I am. For me, I'm, I am my name that was given. I am the summoner of the people, but I'm also he who holds the mirror up. In front of himself so that we can all see who we are.
Rob Lee: It's good. It's really good. See, I mean, you actually got a, like a name with meaning. Mine just means like Brighton famous. I don't know about that.
Kokayi.: Couple of Brighton famous. And I mean, do what you do. Living a life, brother.
Rob Lee: I mean, the love he gets to fall here with the, you know, it's all shiny.
Kokayi.: Okay. That's it. Nobody gets going to get your eye, bro.
Speaker 3: So, again, like, I like it. It's like, you know, when you, you think about when folks are making their work, I, I have a lot of conversations and folks may talk about, you know, I'm making this and it has this sort of consumer in mind, the audience. But what you were saying, they're like, you're doing this for you. And I, and I think that that's the best part.
I even want to listen to like, you know, Rick Rubin talk through like the creative act and so on. It's literally that, like the process, the work is for you. And if someone get, and you hear other people say it obviously, but if someone gets something out of it, fantastic. Um, and even when I get feedback from folks that listen to this, they're like, oh, this reminds me of this, or could you edit this? I was like, well, I'm curating it. I'm doing the interviews.
This is what I'm curious about. And if you might like the direction I'm going with, the sort of depth and sort of how I'm going about these conversations, fantastic, but selfishly, I'm trying to get insights from, from folks to make my self seem a little bit smarter. Yeah.
Kokayi.: I mean, y'all, you know, we're all out here trying to like, I think the way that we socialize, the way that we, you know, the, the circles that we flow in, as we mature and our social circles change, as we find ourselves more interested in other things, those that, you know, as you move through your life, man, and the whiskers get wider, you know, things are just different, right?
Things are different. And then you have to look around for me personally. I'm looking around. I'm like, I hold on. I know I'm not crazy. Right. And so some of the things I put out there are the check.
It's a temperature check. Is it, is it me? Like, I know it ain't me.
Is it me though? So let me say what I got to say, you know, get it off my chest. Yeah. It's very interesting. I'm, you know, I had a political conversation with another fellow black man who's of a certain age, and we were just talking about how, like during my whole lifetime. Yeah. As a Gen Xer during my whole entire formative years, I was told that Russian communism were bad, like those two things were synonymous.
Yeah. And old white people were the main people that were like, no. And there were movies. There's, you know, there's a series of movies that hunt for red, October, red, dawn, the red, red, whatever you want to pick a pick a red, there's a red, right? Um, red, even the movie. Like, so all of these things were out there that were like Russia, communism, bad, you know, America, freedom, democracy, good. And then when you hear old white people now that are older than myself, what they remember, so you know, black, no, great.
Um, they out here just like Russia, good. And you're like, what are you talking about, bro? Like you never watched the movies. Like you never, you weren't in class that day. We were, you know, this is what we talked about, right?
You know, you remember the drills? Like, you don't remember any looking for the invasion of the reds that were coming. Like that was what McCarthyism was about. This is hunting the communists. Like, what are you doing?
Rob Lee: And I think to add the extra layer to that being where you're based at and where you're from, you're DC guy. And I, I look at it as well. I hit that, I hit 40 in January. I've, I've, I've offended. And, you know, one of my, for, for ridiculous purposes, but it's one of those things you like, what you like, it's one of those movies that fall into that vein. It's like Rocky four. It's like, yeah, keep eating the Russians. It's been ingrained in me. That's a 40 year old movie.
Kokayi.: The propaganda has been deep. So at this moment, as we. Experience these cultural changes, right? From, you know, which is all wrapped up in white supremacist division, racism, fascism, as they try to, you know, reel back that time of, of, uh, you know, supreme amounts of hatred and feeling that they are now empowered to do so and have, you know, basically finagle and finesse the political system so that they can, you know, operate under, you know, the guise of being lawful citizens. Right. While we're doing all that, I'm sitting over here like, what I need to say at this moment, right? And I feel like, like for my work, I have a specific message, right? But also I'm like, that's y'all, like I really have resigned myself to not be, I'm not a magical Negro. I'm not here to make you feel fine. Right. I'm not here to empathize or to, um, to cry with you. Right. Y'all fucking around. Y'all finding out.
Rob Lee: It's the, it's the thing going back to the, the, the SNL, right? When I think it was Chris Rock and Chapelle in there, this is after the first, it's just like, we didn't, we, we were expecting this. And, and it's sort of, sort of that mentality.
And, you know, as I was saying, and this leads into this next question, um, as I was saying before we got started of like, sort of the, the ethos and the thinking that goes into the season of like, what am I curious about right now? Like me in 2019 still had that sort of Trump through line of, you know, you talk spicy about my city, I ain't gonna allow that, but I got to figure out a way to do that with some degree of elegance, right? And some degree of artistry. Whereas now in sort of in elegant times, so much more in elegant times, so verbally in elegant times that people do whatever they want.
They want everything and they're doing everything they want. And I was like, what do I want to do with this? And I was like, I want to revisit things. I want to take sort of a deeper lens and a deeper inspection of these things and using sort of hundreds of interviews at this point, maybe to have a different insight and different perspective, dive it into how the, how folks think, how creative folks think, especially now with all of the things that have happened over the last five years. So for you, thinking through, obviously you're, you're working, the things are going to be rooted in.
And I think we've gathered a lot of that in the conversation. That's why I'm even in the first, where's the direction splintering off? Where's the theme splintering off when you're creative work over the last few years? I mean, time is getting wider, wilder by the minute.
Kokayi.: So for sure. I mean, I feel like, you know, here's the thing. Them folks ain't got no problem being goofy as goofy as possible. Right. So these, these motherfuckers pushing the limit on whatever, right? Rule of law, I don't care. Judge, so what?
Throw you in the back of the van, fly you out of the country, kidnap you, just do whatever. So as an artist, do I feel like I need to censor myself this moment? Hell no. For what? For what? Right. So before I'm looking for, you know, and I feel like this, you know, thankfully I had a good conversation. I had a conversation with her lean flowers one time and we was just talking about like, he was like, man, people need to get off the, you know, the government nipple, like we need to stop looking for these arts grants and figure out a different way to fund ourselves.
Cause what's going to happen if it drives the loan by whole? Here we are in space with is dried up or you got to bend the knee. Yeah. Right.
It's either dried up or you got to bend the knee. Like you got to go full on, you know, adjacency to the, to the, to the, to the tyrants, right? In order, you got to sanitize and homogenize your message and your work in order to gain. So this is the part, this is the, like, what's she going to do for a dollar?
Like what's she going to do for a dollar? You not going to, you're not going to say black people no more. Oh, we can't say that. Oh, we, we not going to say LGBTQIA plus people. No, we're not going to talk about queer folk. We not going to talk about all the reflections of the vast amount of diverse individuals. We're not going to say diverse. We never talk about equity. We're not going to talk about inclusion. We never add these words. I can't put that in my application.
Right. Oh, no, no, I don't care anymore. So I don't, I was already at a certain age where I don't really care. Like, you know, my zero fucks given, but it's really like on 12. Like, so you reach a certain age, you just be like, I ain't doing that. Like, if I've been doing this for a minute, I ain't doing that.
Right. And hopefully if you got a great therapist, your bad behaviors, right? And your ill behaviors are wrapped up in, I ain't doing that no more. Cause you want different outcome. Right. But at the same time, through your creative work, you're like, man, why am I, if you was ever holding back, like I thankfully, I was not in the space of trying to hold back. I knew that I had to write a specific way to get a grant. Right.
And writing in that way is just, you know, using a specific type of language in order to express yourself and get your point across so that the folks reading it don't think you just out here tricking off break. However, now I'm just like, why am I, I'm not holding that. No, I don't even need to talk to you. Yeah. If you ain't even a line with what I'm aligned with, why am I talking to you? Cause I'm not bending the knee. Like that's not what happens.
Rob Lee: And that's, and that's a good, really good point. Like, you know, where I sit at the day job is in higher ed. Right. So seeing that, and I do this and I can see the massive shifts and what's the whole podcast industry looks like in terms of simple discoverability. That's just like, when they talk about, oh, shadow band doesn't exist. It's like, maybe in the way that it's discussed, however, you can demonetize, you can just have this thing, certain things pushed higher and so on that fall outside of what we say the standards are. Like this needs to be this, this is sort of the format that you need to have. Cool.
Right. And then in that language as you, you discuss and you see, like, oh, no, that's not what's happening. Oh, so these are the voices that are pushed there that are kind of serve as a, the media for the messaging that's against sort of the more diverse and so on. It's what it's saying people. So when I look at very personally, those, those podcast boards, just to get an idea who's successful is very white. It's very, and I was like, oh, okay.
So we're aspiring for this. And to your point, I'm like, I refuse. I don't think I want to do that. I don't think they look like me. I think I actually intimidate them. So let me go over here and do something else. Right.
Kokayi.: It's, well, it's not, I mean, I don't even look at it as they want you to aspire to be those people. Yeah. It is, I feel like the zeitgeist is the echo chamber. The zeitgeist right now is to homogenize and then have a massive amount of echo chambers to reinforce your bad behavior. You already know, like, if you didn't feel like, if you didn't feel like calling me the N word with the heart ER was bad, you wouldn't be so angry about using it. Right. If you felt like diversity was such a horrible thing, you really wouldn't be so angry about it.
Right. If it's a horrible thing, you wouldn't be angry because things that make you angry at the, just things that you are like vehemently, uh, offended by. And what is so offensive about people being different?
Right. What is so offensive about powerful black women? What is so offensive about powerful women? What is so offensive about, you know, you know, trans individuals?
What is so, what is so offensive about all of that? If you're comfortable within yourself. Right.
So what I'm finding that, you know, a lot of these podcasts, a lot of these channels that are getting funding and that funding is coming from those individuals who are like, finally, somebody saying out loud what I've been hiding behind the keyboard trying to say, right? I don't got to get no smoke. Yeah. Person.
Yeah. I can throw you $2. So you're, you know, so you're bank, so you could just say what I need you to say, or I could call in and yell at this liberal, right? And then get scum. Like, but all this is about cowardice and fear, um, which has always been the modus operandi of those individuals within these contiguous United States who have always operated the same way. They would gather in the hundreds to lynch one black person.
They would be one person trying to lynch one black person. I always got to be a crowd. It always got to be a goon squad. Right. You can't show up. It'd be three black people.
You need 98 cops. Right. Why is that? Because that's an internal fear.
That's an, that's an internal inferiority complex that you feel like you need to squash out or tamp out the life of an individual who you a fear and be coveted. That's well, well said. So that's what we get echoed.
I, we got it now. It's just an echo chamber of, you know, you know, the chauvinistic speak and the, you know, transphobic hollering and then, but that, and the thing that pisses me off more so than anything else is black people adopting that nonsense. And I got to sit here and look at you in your face, knowing that you don't know no black people, why your headline all fucked up. Like, go man, bro, get it lined up, bro.
Rob Lee: And that's the thing that really like gets under my skin. Like, you know, I have any of these conversations. It's like, well, how are you monetizing it? All of this different BS.
I'm like, that doesn't matter. Like doing this, the mission or what have you, and I don't want to sound like in that vein, but literally there is mission oriented. Um, you know, I think in those terms, and then I started hearing these things that are really pushed towards and sort of like, and going back to one of the things you said earlier of like how into peripheries, like how a person will fill themselves out for the dollar, a devalued dollar. And it's just like, so, and then having explanations for it later, well, you know, you got to understand, not up.
Kokayi.: Not up. I mean, listen, capitalism is a wonderful thing. Right. Don't, don't get me twisted. Right. Pros and cons. You get what argue for it. You can argue against it. You know, these systems that have been in place for, for ages have always produced poor people, right? Have always caused those who have to be against the have nots. That's always going to happen. However, this, this is where I break the line.
I really don't care if you want to go sell out for the dollar. Yeah. That's fine.
Just don't sit here and try to convince me that it's for any other reason. Get your money, bro. Yeah. Get your money, sis. Get your money up. I will call you a coon.
If you could, for your dollar, tap dance, proudly put up your sign, buck and shuffle them folk do the whole thing. Like I don't, I'm cool with that. Yeah. I can respect you if you like outside saying, look, listen, I'm about to tap for this bread.
Cool. Now, if I'm looking at you, call your corn that don't be offended. You knew what you knew them shoes you put on.
You know, you just call that man master when you sitting up in the Senate talk about daddy's back, you're like, all this nonsense. You can do all of that stuff. Right. You can say all of that stuff, but say it with your whole chest. Like I'm fine with that.
I'm fine. If you want to do something for some money, man, go do it for some money. Just don't ask for me to respect you. Yeah. I don't want to respect. I'm not going to respect you.
Rob Lee: If I, you, you, you can't have it. Both will have you. You do this cherry pick thing and, you know, it's just like, to you, like you said, you know, say, what's your favorite whole chest? Like this is, this is what you chose.
Kokayi.: No one asked you. What you chose. And so what I find is when you sitting over here trying to convince me, that this is for some strange ill envisioned reason, you feel like you are justified in doing so. That's a lot of mental acrobatics. That's a lot of cognitive dissonance that you're participating in.
Trying to convince me that you are right because you opted for the back. It's okay. Yeah. Go get your money. If you're not going to get my respect at the same time that you're getting your money.
Rob Lee: So that, that takes me to sort of these next questions. One's, one's related to money. And we'll talk about that. Secondly, but I want to talk about the Guggenheim a little bit. If you don't mind. Oh yeah. For sure. Um, so your first MC.
First MC to win a Guggenheim from music competition. Yeah. Shout out to you. Congratulations on that. Thank you. Uh, what would the like sort of challenges or sort of that process? Cause like you're the first Google. I'm just going to say Google. I'm a Guggen. Yeah.
Kokayi.: I'm going to say it all the time. The Google, because I know we talk about, we off the Guggen. Um, listen, listen. Um, I tell everybody if you can form some sentences and have some really good ideas, apply for the Guggenheim. Right. I feel like this, one of those institutions that irregard, you know, irrespective of what you look like or your ideas or your identity or your politics or your, your associations and affiliations, they're looking at what work are you trying to put out here in the world? Right. And that to me is sounds altruistic, but they stick with that. Right. And it's, it's, it's a value. It's a valuable thing to have integrity and let that thing leak across, you know, multiple disciplines. Um, so with that, yeah, I mean the application, as soon as I did the application, you know how you got the one kid in class that might finish the test real early, right? And you, but you know that kid is proud, you know, you'd like, no, let me bend you had perfect SAT.
So you've been messing up the curve the whole year. And then there's one time where you like spend all night studying and you get to the test and you like, all right, this is my midterm. This is actually a real story. Happened to me on my final for my African American studies class at UNC3. So I was at, I got me, we have been studying some crazy hours.
I was drinking jolt, which was a cola that no longer exists anymore, but it had like mad crazy caffeine. I had been up for almost two days studying. We had a study group.
We was spending our time on McKellan live. We was in the library dog. I had a great study group. I drove home, took a shower, drove back to school and took the test at seven o'clock in the morning. Bang that joint out like an hour went by and I was like, yo, something like, I was looking at the paper and I was looking around. People were still down and I was like, I'm finished. I ain't do this. I was like, nah, I could, I'm not finished. I was like, dog, I'm finished. But then you look at the gen, I was like, it don't look wrong.
Let's just turn it in. So I literally walked up to the TA. My, my, my, my TA was named Frank. He was an alpha gave, uh, gave Frank the joint, dipped out, went home, passed out for almost day and a half, came back the next semester, got my grades back and was like, Oh wow, I killed that joint.
Got back the next semester. Frank was like, yo, do you know that you messed up the curve for the whole class? And I was like, yo, what you talking about? He was like, slim, you got the highest grade on that joint and you finished first and literally I was sitting like third to the back of the room and had to walk all the way down like the church marks with the finger up the hand in my paper and people was like, Oh, this isn't a thing. Like, Hey, you sure you done? Yeah, it's a wrap.
And I came up and I crushed the curve. That's how I felt doing the Google. Right.
I finished the application. I was like, that's it. Yeah.
Nothing. It wasn't a hard application. It was just that in my mind, the project that I was proposing was very, very clear and over time, having done successfully, you know, receive grants. Uh, shout out to DCCA, a shout out to OCTF and me. Um, shout out to, you know, anybody's that were giving me a grant across the country, NEA, all of that.
Um, and even an opportunity like a USA artist, like I recommended for before, uh, creative capital, even on and get it, you know, still being in the top, you know, all of that. Man, I finished that joint and I was like, these are clear concepts. There's a clear ideas. I think I'm done. I'm just going to send it.
Yeah. I had great, uh, recommenders. My budget analysis was solid. Like everything I had was, I knew what I had. I knew what I wanted and the vision was clear on what I wanted to do.
The project I wanted to do. And this was my first time filling out the Google. Right. Never had done it before. And I knew people that have filled it out 10 times.
I know people that did it 15 times, never wanted the first time I did it. I want, and I turned right around and told my man, uh, Anthony, Ted, who won the next year, I was like, tell yo bro, fill out the joint. And he was like, what did you do? I was like, have a clear sense of idea. Da da da da da with the recommenders. And show enough, bro, follow the advice came through with a killing project. Next thing you know, he was like, yo, go, go, I'm a googie. I love that.
Rob Lee: And that's, and it's really sound. I mean, I think too often, um, I hear about the folks who are doing the visual arts. I see it in a podcasting, you know, we don't have like these, well, a lot of folks don't have these sort of like set visions. They're trying to do something that's safe because it'll be fundable. Like we look at the, the film industry, right? It's like, well, this didn't break a billion dollars, so it's not successful. And then that trickles down into folks being a little bit more safe or apprehensive or doing a kind of a copy of what looks to be successful. And, you know, as you're touching on, if you got something that you have your foundation, do you have your stuff done right?
And it's a sound project. You don't need to over bake it. You know, you just like, look, I like the cookies that a little doughy. Sometimes it can be a little doughy and it's just like, it's good.
So that's what really matters. It's like, you got your thing right. You, you did the, you do Dylan, did you have your budget and all of that stuff in mind and you got a solid thing and you let the cars fall where they may, but trying to mold what you're doing into something that might be deemed successful at the moment, right? That's like when, you know, I've always mentioned this a couple of years ago when everyone had a entanglement podcast, I was just like, you know, you know, so Rob, what do you think about this? I'm unqualified. I don't do that podcast, you know, right?
I used to. So in that same vein, and thank you for sharing it with us. That's really cool to the background. So I'm curious about this, it's this theme of like artist attrition and artist support as a part of it. What kind of support, you know, outside of money, because I have money that we talked about is this important and all of that stuff, but at the same time, other things are more important. Thank outside of money. What kind of support means the most to you in your art life?
Kokayi.: You know what? So great question. Thank you. Um, I, I work with the Interledger Foundation. So I've been working with them probably about 10, 15 years started out as an ambassador for them. Uh, it, and they talk about it's a, it's a fintech company now, uh, but they were into web monetization and the Interledger protocol, which is the protocol that helps you send, you know, money pretty easily. Um, and they were doing a lot of web monetization stuff to try to get people to be able to fund themselves through, you know, peer to peer, uh, money exchanges through wallets, digital wallets.
Not necessarily with crypto, but with any currency. Um, and so work with them as an ambassador, then became ambassador manager, and then came on as a consultant. And a lot of the times my first questions, um, or first conversations with them, I was like, Hey, you know what, man, you know, money is great. Right. Giving people money is amazing thing. However, access is another thing that's amazing.
Right. If you could give me some access to some people that I wouldn't have access to, that's amazing support. Um, if you could decrease the barriers to entry to certain things, that's great support. If you could underwrite this thing over here, don't give me the money.
Give somebody the money to teach me how to do X, Y, and Z. That's great support. So it's, I look at support like, um, I think oftentimes, especially like when we, uh, and it's, it's, it's a roundabout segue, but it's there. A lot of times when we talk about things that are supposed to be for people, we assume so much because we first world country. Right. And we who, and those of us who have computers, right.
And stable internet. When we talk about kids and we like, oh man, we need to do something for the kids. We won't give every kid.
This is what happens in public school. All right. We will give every kid a computer, but then you want to lock the computer up.
Yeah. Why are you locking the computer up? Well, because you already understand that there's some sort of disparity going on at home that the kid might sell the computer because they can't pay for lunch. Right. So the barrier to entry and, and then you get a kid a computer and with a Wi-Fi, that's the assumption is I can't even have a kid a computer.
Right. But the kid don't have Wi-Fi. They barely got cable. They barely got a phone. They might have a phone. That doesn't necessarily mean they got the unlimited data plan on their phone. That, you know, what we give the library with the library and open 24 seven.
I can't do my homework at the library 24. So there's all these barriers, the entry that we assume. Yeah. We say we're going to give every kid a computer. We're going to give everybody some money. We assume because of our, our privilege of being a specific and a specific growing up a specific way, living a specific way, being able to earn a specific amount of money. We assume that these things are helpful.
Right. So yes, every artist could use a specific amount of money. The one question I used to hate on some grants is, well, how much is my thousand dollars going to do for you? Like I need to jump down and be like, oh my God, my so these thousand dollars, you're going to save my whole life. Life changing amount of money. Five thousand dollars in the life that man, you done paid a bill, bro. You just let you help me breathe for another month.
Rob Lee: It didn't cover my, my plantation hood. Yeah.
Kokayi.: It didn't cover all the stuff that I need to be able to create. Yeah. You have provided some relief from a stressor, but this ain't life changing bread. Your twenty five hundred is appreciated, but that's not life changing bread. And so I think when we talk about resources and we talk about the other things that we need, yes, money is great, but what am I going to do with that money? I think a grant writer is a great thing to help people with.
I think some sort of budgetary situation, you know, grant, you know, people to show you how to do the budget, you know, access to other individuals, introducing them in different communities, walking them into certain institutions without them having to jump through and, you know, all the stereotype loopholes, right? That to me as an artist is also necessary.
Rob Lee: That's, that's so, so important. Like just, uh, I think of the whole you teach a man a fish and all of that stuff. I think of that thing and a lot of times we're not getting it.
I'll share before I move into this next question, I'll share like an example that really falls into it. I was very aware of it. How many of you seen each other person? I'm a giant black guy.
Speaker 3: You're a big black guy too.
Rob Lee: And, um, I remember I got this pretty, pretty large award, right? And earned pretty large award, you know, used to proper numbing, I suppose. And, you know, I'm going there and I'm speaking on about the award and sort of what it meant. And I was like, well, this is allowing me to do some things. There was a lot of strings with it. That was sort of my real thought. And I was like, you got to give it to me in installments and you're actually kind of stemming my creative process. And, you know, I was kind of really, because at a fault, I'm going to be honest. And I was like, all right, what do they want to hear?
And how can I marry that with something that feels authentic? And it's like, let's be positive. And the positive was this thing built capacity and I was able to do these other things. It was honest. I didn't feel like I was biting my tongue and I didn't feel like I was like kind of selling it out a little bit. And I looked at the optics of who was around.
It was a lot of like older white folks. So I was already a little like, I don't know about this. It's like, I got to just do it. And, and I just felt uncomfortable in it.
But I was like, I already did this. This is not selling out. You're actually being honest. You're not gassing it up.
You're not doing all of these sort of different things to really take for this organization and this institution. You did a thing. You got funding to do this thing. And you said what the funding translated to you did your thing.
Here's the equation. And once I got past it, you know, that sort of experience, I was able to kind of move along with it and get sort of my fine. They held onto the final piece of funding to interactually for me to do this.
And, you know, it was fine, but I used that information to go into sort of the next one of what do I want the next one to look like. And I find for me, and I think for a lot of artists, when it's very rare that you get a really large piece of funding, you don't know how to do that. You might only get that one time. So for me, it was just like, all right, when the next one comes up, I know what I'm looking for from a funder. I don't want this installment thing. You know, I'll take less of not installment for whatever the thing looks like. I want to be able to realize my vision and not feel like I'm kind of dampening that vision to touch.
Kokayi.: But it's also, you know, it's the strings for strings sake. Yeah. Right. It's like, what do you think I'm going to do with this funding? Right. That's why I love, what do they call it?
It's basically it's untethered funding. Yeah. It's just like, yo, man, you do you, right? Give me the money. Let me do you, bro. Do you, sis?
Like go out here and just do the work. Cool. That type of funding unrestricted.
That's what they call it. I'm restricted. I love unrestricted funds because now I can just go program how I'm going to program. I'm going to do what I'm like. There's ways that I could save that you're not going to. If you sent me two grand, I can't save with the two grand. Like I could save with the 30 grand. Right.
With the 30 grand, I could go do X, Y, Q and Z and that equals a whole different set of programming and, you know, and, and substantive programming and effects that it has on community. Yeah. More so than if you gave me this $2,000 or two weeks and I'm sitting over here like, okay, well, you know, I can't, I can't pay the whole vendor.
Yeah. But I need to pay because you hold on to this two grand and then, and then every time I got to get the two grand, you want me to put the shoes on and hit the little stuff. That's not a way, bro.
Rob Lee: And that's one of the things where when. You know, to your point around like having a vendor like, you know, I'm higher than an editor. I was doing video at a certain point and I was just like, okay, I want to do this.
I can get most of these done at a volume discount. But if I do it in this sort of piecemeal way, and it's like, this is a better way of doing it. And it's like, right. And I know how to like manage it. And they ask you for all of these things. And it's just like, hmm, but you know, for me, it's just like not knowing it. And now having that background and that knowledge, I just put together a grant application. I was just like, here's my budget. I don't problem with your numbers. For data analysts, it's fine.
I was like, you don't know what this cost. So here you go, you know, um, so I want to shift over to the brothers a little bit. So hubris, right? And hubris and blackness and the infinite potential well explores black masculinity and trauma through a hip hop lens to be very general internet. How is your perspective evolved as you've kept creating? Like over the years, you know, like you again, we're kind of talking about as you would get those whiskers and as we mature and we grow up, our perspectives kind of shift. So talk a bit about that.
Kokayi.: When I did hubris, it was as part of the house beyond artist residency. Yeah. And what I felt like is I had this idea of a father and some relationships based on my own, again, based on my own relationship with my father and thinking about fathers and sons and how that worked out. And I wanted to do a record and a photography series of fathers and sons, right?
Or one father, one son or fictitious father and son. And then as I was writing it, I was like, man, who's going to be reviewing this application? And I was like, well, if I write this this way, they're not going to get it because they're not black. And they don't understand that tumultuous, sometimes mind feel that it is between fathers and sons.
We talk about the black community, whether that's absentee fathers with that father that incarcerated, whether that's fathers that are really good people and black men and take care of their kids, whether they with or without the mama or people that have been married too long, if you've been married for the wrong reason, right? So all of those things came into play, right? And I was like, man, let me cast this in a way that they would understand. So I wrote it and said, Icarus and Daedalus, great story, the idea of hubris, great story, not a black.
And they were like, ooh, come be part. Like, so I was able to examine that when I did black descent and infinite potential well, I didn't write that for anybody. So that was Nicholson arts did that. And what Nicholson does, they provide you space and then you can create your own exhibit within that context. They didn't ask me like, what are you trying to create? And let's go create that they were just like, a, he goes from space to create, how do you want to use that space?
And what do you feel like you want to examine? And I was like, Oh man, this is great. And then I was like trauma. So it was a Vince Staples quote, when he was on hot 97, and he was talking about how black people's number one export is trauma.
Right? He was like, you know, I turn on daytime TV, and I could watch the Kardashians or this and ain't nobody squabbling. But as soon as I turn on some black folks on TV, we always got to be squabbling. We always got drama. We always got trauma. Right. And then we start talking about movies and music and all of that.
And I was like, man, what would it look like? Because our commodity is trauma. If I was to re contextualize certain things with the removal of that trauma. So the first thing was, you know, and it started off with a single idea of black people are not a monolith. That's yeah, a obelisk with a light bright on the inside that said black people are not a model if and then I moved to sitcoms. And I was like, Oh, what would what would happen if I recontextualized Martin, different strokes, different world and the Jefferson, right, but using historical figure. So my Jefferson's piece is literally Thomas Jefferson and the woman he impregnated the slave woman and he impregnated.
I can't remember her name at the moment. And then they're offspring. Yeah. Right. So then I did that. And then I, you know, redid the Martin poster with the original Martin, but with Coretta Scott, Martin and Bayard resting on it with Bayard resting being an openly homosexual man during the civil rights movement, who's pretty much written out of the movement because he was a homosexual black man. Yeah. And then same thing with different strokes, same thing with different world people, you know, back to African movement with Marcus Garvey and Stokely Carmichael. And there's another young lady who was part of the back to Africa movement. And then I took the dinner thought about language and how we look at language and how do we when when we demonize or others have demonized hip hop.
Yeah. It's often because of the language that's there, the ideas and the themes. So what I did is I took the billboard charts for a specific time. And I took it from country rock hip hop and pop.
And I took the top five songs, combined them together in one document, and then passed out each word by itself. Yeah. Separate, separating. So all the lyrics were in one document. But then I broke each word that appeared in it in superscript. You can see how many times the word appeared for pop, hip hop, rock and country.
And then you could look through it like a car catalog and figure out. And so you don't know what the song is because all the lyrics are mixed together. But it's top five songs.
But you compare terms. So bitch, the term bitch appeared more in R &B than it did in hip hop. Right. And some other terms like it was some other whole or something was more in country than it was in hip hop or R &B. Right. It was like you could look through it and find the language, you know, so you could parse out language irrespective of the genre, right.
So without context, you could just look at the language. Yes, you know that this is the genre, but you don't know what song this is. You don't know if it's all the same song.
But within the context of the language, you can see that in country, they use derogatory terms as much as they use in pop as they move in hip hop or R &B music. And then the last thing was a film called See a Body in which I took out I used like the top film. So I used Boys in the Hood. What was it? Jesus. Boys in the Hood.
Love Jones. It was a bunch of I can't even remember all of them. Red Tails, like I use a bunch of different, I'm officer and gentlemen, I use a bunch of different some spike joints.
I took all these films, but then like for the Boys in the Hood scene, I wanted to create like these two lines. What would happen if Ricky lived? Right. So instead of Ricky getting shot in the alley, it moves. You see Tay Diggs running down the alley, but then it was that Tay Diggs? Yeah, Tay Diggs, right?
Rob Lee: Is that voice of the hood? That was more chestnut.
Kokayi.: More chestnut. So you see more chestnut run down the alley, but then it changes into him being in like, uh, uh, was the best man. Right? So you see him. So you see him hopping out the car.
He looked all fresh. So it's like, what if Ricky lived? What if we took the trauma out of all these movies? Gotcha. So that's what that is. That's what you too.
Rob Lee: By the way, I didn't show that. Yeah. That's, uh, that's really cool. And I feel like, you know, when we get out there too, it was then suddenly, you know, I mean, but the AI and of it all happened.
Kokayi.: Right. But, but so what I'm saying is like, within these, as I've worked to change stuff and I'm doing like now I got a exhibit coming to the Hirschhorn on Saturday Friday and Saturday as part of sound scene. I worked with the Götze Institute to do a sound piece, which turned into a video piece about Thomas Mann, who was talking about democracy because he had been ousted from Germany during fascism. And he spoke against the Nazis and he spoke against fascism and they, he won the Nobel Peace Prize for one of his books. And then he had all these speeches. He was living in California and he was coming to the Library of Congress and doing all these speeches on democracy and how to maintain democracy and what happens when you have fascist regimes come into power.
And those who fight against them. And this is from a German speaking from the perspective of being a German. So I did the piece for the Götze, that piece is now going to be in, in, in the, at the Hirschhorn on Friday and Saturday. But I'm saying the growth of all of those is at one point I felt like I needed to explain myself right to those persons who were participating in giving me, you know, granting me the agency to do so. And then I felt less apologetic as I moved on and just was like, let me just do me. This is my work. So can I just do me?
Rob Lee: I love that. I love that sort of that point where you're able, or you realize not even able to be able, but when you realize like, I'm just going to do me and just do it unapologetically and let that speak for what it is. So I want to go back on to hip hop a little bit. And this is more, I don't remember if it was from double XL or complex, but I remember I used to have this section in air called like Humps or Dumps based on the season. And I had the same sort of idea, but I want to craft it towards like hip hop, culturally speaking, maybe music as well, but culturally speaking, macroly. There's this belief that hip hop is like kind of died out and sold out. We gave it away culturally. I don't know if that's 100% true, but there is some truth there. And I think that culturally, it's unhealthy.
I don't know if it's dead, it's unhealthy. And the commercial wins kind of hide how bad it is at times. It's like, oh, this person made a lot of money, or this person has this new whatever streams, because it's not going platinum anymore. So culturally, what's something that you'd like to cop or drop just from like hip hop from your perspective? It could be in any sort of realm, whether it be purely music, whether it be sort of the, you know, some of the discourse around hip hop, or what would you want to cop? What would you want to drop right now?
Kokayi.: I think just to go back to your point, I don't think it's, I don't think, so I think most people when they talk about hip hop, they think in terms of the music, they don't think in terms of the hip hop culture, the idea of making something out of nothing, because that's never died. That has gone on through each generation. So millennials picked it up, Z done picked it up, Alpha done picked it up, they know how to make something out of nothing.
They think it's for nothing, or they think it's like, yo, but being a creative and creating something where something doesn't exist and filling in the gap that doesn't exist in society is all hip hop mentality. Yeah. Right. So as a culture, I don't think it will anywhere. I think it's just become so ingrained in American culture, right? Because of all the things that you mentioned, the commodification of the music and the proliferation of our slang and like all of these things. So America, as it always does, is trying to siphon off the culture to make it American culture. But it's black and brown people culture is hip hop culture that has created this pathway for people to be able to think differently. And a lot of these kids, whether they be fascists or not, grew up listening to hip hop music because it's part of the culture now.
Right. So I don't think hip hop has died at all. I don't think hip hop has gone out of style. Now, if we talk about the music, if we talk about the businesses or some of the things that have happened, yeah, I mean, I wrote an article for the eating while ago when the 50th came up for hip and I'm and it was called as complicated, right? And I have a complicated relationship with hip hop. Not I have more complicated relationship with it turning 50 and the focus being only on the rap acts, right?
Not on the DJ, not on the bboys and bgirls, not on the graffiti, not on the fashion, not on the, you know, we made, you know, new technologies. It was only focused on the MCs and rap groups and, you know, mostly male MCs, you know, so it was very skewed. And that's what made me feel funny about the 50th is because it wasn't talking about the encompassing full view of hip hop culture. I don't think I would drop anything out of hip hop culture.
I think I feel like the thing I would drop is people's conflation of hip hop music and the business of hip hop, right, that has happened with hip hop culture. Yeah. Right. The culture is totally different than the music and the iterations of the music at it has changed and the music is supposed to change. That's the other part about any, the main idea about hip hop is to be innovative. If we're still innovating, then yes, it's going to change. People are going to rap differently, style of dress is going to change, like the music is going to be, we're going to produce the songs differently, we're going to spin records differently, we're going to do art differently. Like all because it's a growing art form and as we grow and mature, things are going to change.
So yeah, I don't know. I think the conflation and the miseducation around what hip hop culture is, is the problem more so than the culture itself. People would be like, for the culture, and I'd be like, that's some fuck shit.
Right. That ain't what the culture is not about raping women and pilling them up and, you know, all these bitches and hoes and showing you titties. Like that's not the culture. Right. These are choices that you can make within this culture.
Right. It ain't like, it ain't like we never seen no MCs, you know, women who were MCs that wasn't showing some sex appeal. We saw that from the very beginning. Let's not act like it wasn't there. Let's not act like everybody was all righteous.
Let's not act like everybody was dressed in the same way. Like, let's not, it wasn't cool. Run DMC wasn't cool when they came out.
They made that look with the fedoras and the jeans and the sneakers cool, but everybody looked like Grandmaster Flash with the belts and the leather and the long hair pressed out and the see-through shirts like that. Bro, that was the early wave. Like, let's not act like that wasn't what was happening. That was synonymous with New York fashion. Like, it was, let's not act like that wasn't happening.
Rob Lee: I remember, I think that was this Netflix documentary that's in there just like, I had panties on my shoulder or what have you, then when DMC comes out, I'm like, I'm done.
Kokayi.: Right, so that's what I'm saying. So I think the conflation of the music and the changes in the music and then the understanding, and then the misunderstanding of hip hop is hip hop business is the business of hip hop, which if we are being honest, they utilize the ageism and the sexism within hip hop to keep black creators and kids from owning any publishing so they can actually have some freedom in the business of music. Right, so what we've done with hip hop and called it hip hop and say hip hop is not the culture, it's the business of the music that we have now confused with the culture.
With a culture exists in another self. So what I want to drop the conflation of bullshit, you know, I'm hip hop till I die. Like to me, everything has always been and will always be hip hop because anything innovative and new, that's just how I think about things. I don't think about things like being able to create things out of nothing is what hip hop taught me.
Rob Lee: That's really a distinction and you know, a few things that take away from it before I go into this next question. It's like, you know, folks, I mean, that's still punk rock, but that's also hip hop. That is, those things where, you know, you watch these videos on on like Instagram or what have you. And I see, they'll have those as mom and their kid and their kids think maybe Gen Z or what have you and they're talking about this is the slang, you know, that we're saying from this and I was like, this is queer community and black slang that you've now said is y'all, it's not even to your thing around like this is now American. You guys have always had an issue with hip hop association with America, but then you want to cherry pick sort of the, you
Kokayi.: know, and giving clock it like all of that is queer culture, LGBTQIA plus black folk, brown folk, like these are things that have moved their way into the zeitgeist. I just feel like this is and this is how I always felt as soon as white people start saying certain words, it's like, all right, y'all, we gotta, we gotta, we gotta bounce pass on that joint.
Rob Lee: I'm gonna start saying zip it up and zip it out.
Kokayi.: You know, so go with it. swag and you know, high fives like all that's all our culture, even so now even even the misunderstanding of a cultural term has now become bastardized and conflated to mean something totally different. Stay woke. Oh my gosh. It's just like pay attention.
Yes. These fools are trying to turn it like there's a woke idea. What does that mean? You mean be aware? The idea or the, you know, keep your head on the swivel is the same as stay woke. But we don't say to keep it, keep your head on the swivel ideology. It's like no, like pay attention. If you grew up in any city, you knew, you know, bro, stay woke like you'd be be aware.
Like, oh, you headed down to the train, bro, stay woke. Like it had nothing to do with an ideology, but I feel like what happens is white people catch the word and don't understand it or the larger, not always, but you know, the larger masses that have no affinity or understanding of language always trying to, but that goes back to my first day. You hate me because of the way I look and you covet me because of my cool. And so because you covet, you want to use those words, but oh, you feel fun because you can't use the word because you used the word wrong.
Rob Lee: You're using it wrong. It's like when it's just like, oh, this
Kokayi.: DEI, I say, you don't even know I felt like I was the only woman because I knew my shit and I was with the fellas and the guys and now I'm fired and I just realized I'm the DEI. Really? You thought that there was only one woman for a reason? Right. Like no other women were great.
Rob Lee: None. I think of this, this running bit that me and my partner, we throw around from, I think maybe season one or season two of Atlanta when I think Darius's character is like everything made up. Stay woke. And I was like, it's literally, literally they pay attention.
Kokayi.: That was a whole song. That was Redbone. That was a whole chorus.
Rob Lee: I'd be remiss if I didn't ask this one. I got a couple more after this. I'd be remiss if I asked this one in your opinion. And because this is ultimately, I framed this podcast as facilitating folks share their own story.
You know, I have some questions, but really I let the guest cook. Why is storytelling so effective for communicating ideas? I know filmmakers use it and other rappers use it, get across ideas versus it being purely a data dump of like, here's some information, form it how you will, but it's done with an artistic intent. Why is storytelling so effective in getting across that information while providing insights and interpretations with elegance or skill? Because data don't have no emotions.
Kokayi.: Data doesn't have any emotions. Data doesn't have empathy. Data, empirical data is just like, here we are. This is zero. This is one. And this is what it is. There's no emotion. There's no nuance.
There's no gray, right? It's the facts and the figures, which I can appreciate, right? I like the facts and the figures. But the story behind the facts and the figures, like I love, that's why I love Freakonomics, the book Freakonomics, because it tells, you know, it gives you all the facts and figures, but then it gives you the story behind it.
So that now that you read in the data, you're like, oh, that's why that data look like that, right? It's not just the spins. It's who got paid to boost the spins. Oh, that's why the spins look like that. Because if I just looked at the data, the data would tell me that you got these because you're such a hell of an individual, right?
You're so amazing and all inspired. But what the story tells me is that your daddy paid for the ad revenue, right? Paid for the ad time and paid the network to boost you and pay some IOs. And then some IOs got paid.
And now your data look like your streams is on a million that you went to stream farms. Like, that's what the story tells me. Yeah. Also, I mean, when we think in terms of like storytelling in the artistic context, it gives the people the opportunity to relate to something there's a very, very, I say, and to be there's nothing new under the sun. Right? Right.
So because there's nothing new under the sun, my story might tap into your story, right? There's so many I grew up in a in a specifics part of the city. Right? I remember going to Oakland, my first time in the Bay. And I was riding down. I think we was headed to, I can't remember where he was headed. It was I can't remember where we were. Wherever we was headed looked like Ben and Roe. So me, Black Indiana and Subsea, we was driving and we was like, son, this is gonna look like Ben and Roe. Like it literally looked like Ben and Roe.
And we was like, this Oakland, this looked like Ben and Roe. And I was like, ah, so immediately without the language, without the music, without understanding the chicken spot on the corner or the Muslim bakery by Lake Merritt, like immediately on that street looking at it, I was like, I know this. I know this. And so I have a different respect.
I have a different idea in context of the people that live there without ever having stepped outside the vehicle. Right? Now I'm in tune to like, oh, okay, I get that. I get, you know, I understand where you're coming from. And I feel like that's what happens when we tell stories in the right way.
There's certain rhymes. I just go back to, there's certain MCs, right? I've heard a plethora of MCs talk about selling drugs.
Sure. And nine million of them drug rap records. I'll be like, yeah, all right, all right. What's in there is like two people that I've heard talk about selling drugs. And I'm like, oh, you're also drugs. And the reason I could say it is because I'm like, oh, I know drug dealers. Like, I grew up with a nice amount of drug dealers. And only a drug dealer would know that talk. The specific, the way you just said that, and the what you're talking about, and the way you talked about it, that's not nothing you pick up on the street. That mentality and the terminology that you're using is not just some fly like that terminology, that ain't known terminology.
So when you hear certain MCs talk, you'd be like, oh, no, I got you. That's you. You're an official, you sold drugs. And now you changed your life. You sold drugs.
Right. And I could appreciate your drug laps, because I know that you sold them drugs, right? Not because I approve of you selling drugs, right? And peplin whatever you did to the community. But the authenticity behind your story, right, is a little more palatable than this person over here who I know absolutely sold no drugs, even though they talking like they sold all the drugs, because you got simp, you're simping, right? And in the other parts of the life, with this person who sold drugs is not doing that because there's a specific code that they follow. And it's terminology.
And I'm like, yeah, I know what you did. Killers. I know, listen, man, I know people in high places and low, low places, people who I know that would probably put a hole in you, never talked about putting a hole in you. Right.
At one time, those people were the people I knew, the people I knew that would absolutely cause you not to exist anymore, were the first people to be like, Hey, bro, please like, let's not do this. Yeah.
Rob Lee: I mean, that's that's the thing that my dad would float around all the time. You know, he's just like, he's like, the guy's talking too much about what he's going to do to you. That means he's not going to do nothing. So that transfers into all the other things. And, you know, and it's, it's, it's, it's remain true. It's remain true for a very long time. And going back to sort of like, you know, you listen to someone that's doing their drug raps, one might say, this is going to be a smug sniff, because it's the name of the podcast, there's truth in their art.
Kokayi.: Right. And I mean, and I'm not to just bring up all the negative, but I feel like that's, you know, and I say this for songwriter singers and songwriters too, like, honesty and records. I've known singers because of the timber. And I can hear it make me feel like they client. I will bust a tear on the record here in the record, because that emotion is caught up in that vibration, right? And also the music got vibrations, right? And those honest, honest vibrations move me more than this. And I can feel them. That's, that's, that's a good point.
Rob Lee: I got these two last ones. One is mean related. It's ridiculous. But, um, you know, I'm an Aquarius. You know, and I think I take that Jordan meme, you know, took it personal. I definitely take these things personal sometimes.
I was sharing a little bit before we got started about taking these things personal. Right. Right.
Right. So what emotion, and I think you're, you're, you're keying in on a little bit, but what emotion do you tap into? Because I think pettiness and taking things personal is an emotion. What emotion do you tap into to get things done?
Kokayi.: I do. So I'm, I'm funny. Here's what I'm funny about. This is what I'm funny about. Um, I deal with a lot. I feel like I have integrity. And integrity for me is a thing.
It's a real thing. Character is a thing. Integrity is a thing. And keeping your word is a thing. And so what I'll do is I tell myself I'm going to do something. And then I can't break my word because I said I was going to do it.
Oh yeah. So a lot of times the motivation, after if we talk about emotions, that's something I do as a mental exercise is to keep myself on point is to tell myself I'm going to do something and I got to do it or announce it to the world. And now I'm responsible to do it. But the other thing, honestly, that drives me more than anything else is trying to exercise my emotional trauma that I grew up with. So a lot of things that come out, a lot of things that get processed is me doing therapy in real time.
Right. So I go to the therapist every Wednesday. Every Wednesday, I'm in there chopping it up about getting this monkey off my back.
Right. Whatever monkey that is, emotional monkey, you know, the food monkey, whatever monkey I got, get it off my back. I make music as a cathartic exercise.
I get on stage as a cathartic exercise because a lot of the things that I experienced stick with me to this day. And I don't like it. Right. And so some things I have to participate in getting it out. It has to get out. The ideas have to get out.
The stories have to get out because I don't want to, I don't want to go to bed with them. Like some people can process and live with a trauma and let they trauma fuel them. I'm like, get this trauma off of me because I can't do it. Like a lot of times I can't do it. I don't want to keep doing it because I know the end.
Right. The end had me depressed. The end had me wanting to kill myself. The end had me in places that I did not have any joy. And so when I found that I could excise these demons and, you know, move through life and get this stuff off my back and find joy in life and find the joy in wanting to live and all that other stuff, I'm like, oh no, we just got to keep getting this stuff off of us. So that's at the root of it all is like trying to get those things off of my mind and out of my self.
Rob Lee: That makes sense. That makes a lot of sense. I think in a world where I find more and more due to the nature of doing this, you know, I listen to some of these sort of like sports folks, these biographies and so on and just people who achieve things and get things done. I deal well with my trauma, I suppose, but when it comes to like getting things done, I try to think in those terms. It's like very similarly in that I set this goal for myself. It's like, don't break this promise to yourself. You set out to do this, you chose this, but let's not go back. Like you can adjust, but you got to give a real reason to be adjusting.
Like if you thought it through the whole, what is the Japanese gambante thing, gambaru, if you like luck, you know, luck is out of it. You've done everything that you needed to do to do this, right? You made a concerted effort to make this choice. So do it and just go with it. Don't teach yourself, don't shortchange yourself. And I try to apply that to so many things that I do. And I used to call it, and in times I still do, rotting the wave. And I found that I get a little bit more selective in which part of that wave I'm going to ride because you have folks who come in who don't maybe have that work ethic. This is collaborative, right?
And nature, you know, I'm only as good as my dance partner at times. And, you know, you have folks who maybe want to work with you, maybe want to put out an opportunity and so on. And you're like, man, I really want to get this done.
I said, I was going to take more opportunities. And then you realize you're doing a lot more work because you're a high achiever. And that gets conflated with this notion of, I want to get things done.
I promise I would get things done. So being more selective in that regard, because ultimately, when it doesn't work out and when it doesn't go your way, you already know. You already know it doesn't fit. And so I think I've gotten better with saving myself that trauma later because a lot of times if I say no to something, because I've already put myself in this mindset of I'm going to accept it, I've done everything I needed to do, it's perfect, if you will. I feel bad if it doesn't work out. So I try to mitigate the limit that. Right. No, I feel you.
I feel you. So here's the last one. Last real question. I got a couple of rapper fire ones for you. But last real question is, what's coming up, man? Let's give us a peek. What's coming up?
Kokayi.: So I just got the audio back from Big Ears, which is I was at the Big Ears Festival with my own band. We're going to put that out as a record. I have the Guggenheim project that I did. I did actually two albums with the Guggenheim project that were 100% improvisation albums. And so the first one I'm working on now, I mean, it's already mixed and mastered and ready to go, but I'm just, I'm struggling with do I want to let a label do it or do I want to do it? And what does that mean?
And what are the resources look like and how can I get them resources and all that? Right. So that's that struggle. But the Big Ears journey, I'm going to get that mixing mastered and try to get that out by August. Again, I'm going to pump it to Herzhorn this weekend, 20, 30, 31st, I'll be at the Herzhorn for sound scene, which is happening right now. Still doing art, still out here taking photos. And actually, man, just like trying to find more benefactors or about to hit this nine of us, like, because, you know, it's, it's, I'm about to start back with the, I'm going to be on a podcast starting in June.
I'm going to head up one with the Interledger Foundation, taking over from my homie, LaWille Carama, and I'll be doing the Future Money podcast. So that's what's coming up. Yeah.
And that's all about spend tech and finance and creatives in that space and technologists in that space and anybody who deals with mobile money or money in general, we're going to be talking about it. Okay.
Rob Lee: Yeah, we should chat afterwards. I have a quick video. Yeah. So I want to move into these rapid fire questions real quick and as I say with folks, you don't want to overthink these and looking for a real quick off the cuff answers. Yeah. What's the creative risk that you recently took?
Kokayi.: Uh, leaning fully into this, uh, 100% improvisation. Love it.
Rob Lee: One of the meanings around your, your name, um, summon the people to hear, right? What's one topic you truly want people to hear to get? You need more empathy in your life. Okay. We're moving through these really quickly. I love this.
Um, and what's this the last one? What's one way working with, um, with artists from other cultures have kind of helped shape your creative lens? I know that travel's been a part obviously through the, through the years. There's collaboration. Yeah. How does that work into your creative lens?
Kokayi.: Well, I grew up in Germany. So my, my, uh, I grew up, I did spend five years in Germany born in DC, stayed in DC until I was three moved to Germany when I was three, came back when I was eight. Um, I always knew the world was small. It wasn't based around DC. So collaborating with other arts artists in different countries literally just opens your mind up to not be so caught up in your neighborhood. That's it.
Once you realize that this globe is globin, right? It's not, it's not about Baltimore. It's not about DC. It's like I could be in Berlin. I could be in Hamburg. I could be in Paris. I could be in Joe Berg. Like it don't really matter. The world is 100% available to you. Get your passport, get about it. I love it. So I look at it.
Rob Lee: And that's kind of it for the pod. Um, topo, topo, can you check you out?
Kokayi.: Yo man, you can always check me out Instagram, kokai, or go to my site, kokai.com, subscribe to my sub stack at kokai. I'm everywhere probably at K-O-K-A-Y. Yeah, you'll find me. Kokai.
Rob Lee: And there you have it folks. I'm going to again thank Kokai for coming back onto the podcast and catching up with us and giving us some great insight here. And for Kokai, I am Rob Lee, fan of there's art, culture, and community. In and around your neck of the woods, you just have to look forward.
