Rob Lee: Welcome to The Truth and the Start, your source of conversations connecting arts, culture, and community. These are stories that matter, and I am your host, Rob Lee. Today I'm excited to be running it back with a multidisciplinary artist, researcher, and educator whose work spans photography, video, and archival practice.
Born and raised in New York City, his work interrogates the systems of advanced industrial societies and the psychological impact of late capitalism. We first did an interview back in 2023, and I'm excited to catch up and explore how his work has grown across continents, across disciplines, and across memory. So please welcome back to the program, Joseph Cochran II. So as we get started here, it's been a few years since we last spoke. And so for those who don't know you or shamefully missed our first conversation, could you reintroduce yourself?
Joseph Cochran II: So my name is Joseph Cochran. I professionally go by Joseph Cochran II, you know, about what it's like to be a junior. And, you know, I'm a photographer, I like to say visual artist, researcher, educator. And, you know, yeah, I don't know what to say about that. I've been doing this shit for a while, and I'm happy to still be doing it.
Rob Lee: That's great. It's great. It's like, it's no frills. I was waiting for like New Yorker. I was waiting for that.
Joseph Cochran II: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that shit too. You know, I mean, I'm originally from, I mean, some of my Brooklyn friends would disagree with where Harlem begins at. But I'm from East Harlem, you know, also known as El Barrio for my action New Yorkers.
And, you know, kind of born here, raised here, except for a little 78 gap. And, yeah, you know, now I'm in Brooklyn, you know, yeah, and last time you saw me, I was fucking homeless. I'm not my studio.
That's how you fucking saw me. I didn't mention that, but, you know, and now I'm in Brooklyn, kind of just showing out, you know, suffice to say, shit's kind of working, I hope, you know.
Rob Lee: That's one of the benefits of doing these like follow up conversations, like this was happening then, didn't really talk about it. This is what's happening now.
Joseph Cochran II: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I was on the middle, I was on the middle of that time at that time, you know what I'm saying? I think even when I came on, having a little like poachy man, like Chinese.
I was like, what's happening with the man's own? I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, one day, one day, I'll find this way, some media, and maybe on our like 10th one, we can like chop it up about that.
Rob Lee: So, and thank you for that, for the intro. Yeah. And, you know, sort of the second question that I have here, I often hear about artists taking on work that doesn't align. And again, this is like sort of a continuation of our first conversation. But taking on work that maybe doesn't align with their values and they do it.
And we've talked about this a little bit before we got started. They take on opportunities, they may not align with their values. And it's an effort to stay afloat, whether it be relevant, whether it be for sort of financial means, access, what have you. How do you stay true to your values while building the artistic life that you want?
Joseph Cochran II: Keeping a fucking day job. You know, I was raised by folks who said, you know, I don't care what you do, you could be a platinum rapper, you could be whatever, you know, keep a job, keep something removed from whatever it is you're pursuing. Because, you know, at least my thinking, maybe I stumbled back a little bit, like, when I first started to, when I began to make my work, you know, and maybe this is, maybe some of you just lose the fetus. But I told myself from the beginning that I would never earn money from it. I would never like, you know, know whatever be interested in me, you know, and that freed me. Because it was like, okay, like, there's no one to give the fuck anyway, like, let me just do what I want. And, you know, as I got to get a little bit of motion with my practice seven years, seven, eight years later, you know, like, you know, in like, for example, when I first returned to New York City, you know, I had nothing, you know, I was like coming out of a, coming out of a, separating with my partner at the time, I had, I had been a ghost in America for seven years, you know, I had no bank account, I had no money, I had nothing, you know, I took two jobs.
One was building frames, one was a teaching. And, and I was, and I was still going out and shooting, but I wasn't like, you know, I wasn't going to openings, I wasn't going to museums, like, I wasn't going to anything, you know, I was just like, all right, I'm back home, let me do this for myself. I mean, you know, this is what I feel peace with. And this is what makes me feel good. And, you know, like, luck or whatever, whatever you want to call it, brought me to the opportunity that I ended up getting with Swivel Gallery, which is a gallery of representative, and things went the way it went from there. But early on, you know, working with the gallery, for example, I, you know, I said, but it was one of those, there's one situation where I was like, listen, like, you know, after I got to tell him that he would never like make a dime off me because he was a photography, I had this, you know, I would have these back and forth with myself, and a little bit with him on like, yo, man, like, this is what I do.
This is what I'm on. Like, if you don't, if you don't fuck with this, like, I could just work a job. Yeah, I just work my job and maybe I work a ton dead and I'll be happy, you know, maybe someone finding a liquidation, you know, on convivial my or shit, maybe, you know, or maybe it's just getting burned up. At least I tried, you know, and I feel like to say, like, I mean, you know, I've been, I've been there where like, I'm taking photo gigs, I don't want to do because I'm fucking broke, you know, and I'm saying, like, I've been I've assisted artists, you know, saying, like, done like lighting staging, all this kind of shit, you know, which I've always figured like, well, those are jobs.
I don't have to put my essence into it. And I was and I was strongly suggest that people do that, that people muck it up and work, you know, saying have a job, do it, you know, saying it will, it will feel like shit when you're doing it, but it will benefit you in the long run. Yeah. At the same time, you know, if art is like, if art for the artist is like their child, you have to think about, well, what, well, if I if I had a living, breathing human that was of my essence, like what I put, what I put them in a situation that they shouldn't be in, right?
What I what I what I put them, what I put them in this part over there with these people who don't appreciate them, or what I keep them here at home with people that I love them. Yeah. And I think it's as simple as that, at least for me, it's as simple as that.
But also, I think that even work that may not align with you may align with you. Sure. So and I think it's like, like, I mean, I have to joke about this all the time, but, you know, you know, you ever heard of Darryl Davis?
Yes. So you know, I'm getting that with David Davis. I remember I was showing someone, I was showing someone this guy one day, another artist. And it was just like siding me, like, and I was like, yo, listen, okay, like, my TBS give me 20,000 miles right now. I'm going to photograph a KKK. Yeah.
Rob Lee: Like, like, like, but they're racist. I'm like, well, you know, like, it's risk, but high reward. You know what I'm saying? Like, you know, but also the same, but also at the same time, like, if if New York City, if New York City asked me to, I don't know, like, put up a bunch of fucking billboards, and they selected the images, and I wasn't able to select them.
I wouldn't do that, you know. So I think I think really, it's really one of those things where it's like, you know, you you get it where you fit in. And we then we won't fit in everywhere. And that's okay. Yeah.
Rob Lee: Yeah. I think I think that's a good distinction too. I remember my my partner, she put me on to the Darrell, Joana, what have you. And my initial response, I was like, yo, what is this?
Joseph Cochran II: Right? She's like, she's like, just watch it. I want to know what your thoughts are. And it turned into those rare instances where I actually wrote something about it. It was like, I wrote a piece about it.
Yeah. And sort of like what my assessment was, because, you know, there was a point where he was here in Baltimore and, you know, in talking, and I was just like,
Rob Lee: I don't like the way we come off in this one. I was just like, you, you're very selective with the the Baltimoreians that you talk to. And I was like, nah, nah, but these are just who these some of these folks are. And I was like, there's not a nuance.
It's not a conversation that there's no discourse. And I thought, you know, as far as that segment in the doc that, you know, what he was doing, the intent of what he was doing was misconstrued. And I was just like, yeah, you guys are missing it.
So yeah, that's just sort of an aside related to that. But going back to, you know, some of these opportunities that present themselves, I think, you know, I look at the volume of stuff I've done, you know, 800 plus interviews, all of them can't be, you know, just this was the one at a line 100% to everything I wanted to do in my hopes and dreams. Some are reps. Some are opportunities to sort of like grow. Some are ones that was like, wow, how did I get this?
Some of these different things. And I think at a point when you get a stage, it's like with certain actors, I don't audition anymore. It's kind of that. And it's like, I know what my values are, and I'm refining them to where I'm at now, maybe something that I did a year ago, two years ago, I wouldn't even consider now. And maybe, you know, sort of two years from now, what I'm doing here is just like, and I think being able to sort through what works and what hits.
One of the other things I heard in your response there was something I hear more and more of from folks who speak on creative practice, creative acts and such of having that separation, you know, all your eggs and then that one basket and then that thing goes tits up.
Joseph Cochran II: What are you going to do? That's what I'm saying. It's like, it's like, you know, like, I mean, you know, in this like neoliberal age, we live in a zombie neoliberal age, we live in everyone is is encouraged to be a hustler. Right? Yeah. Yep. Right.
Culture, right. And, you know, hustling in the like white collar sense, I mean, unless you're like the real white collar hustling for Wall Street guys and everything, like most of it looks like backwards hustling. You know, I mean, like, like I see, and this is no shame, like, I mean, hey, take it, take it, how you think how you want to take not you, but like, take it how you want to take it, you have to listen to this, but let's say if you're a goddamn artist, like, why the fuck would you want to work in an art space? Why would you want to job there?
Why would you why would you want to be around that? You know what I'm saying? Like, it's not, it's not going to like change.
It's not going to like change anything for you. It's not the same as like, I don't know, like, you're some, you're some singer, but you're a janitor at Interscope. They hear you say one day, they're like, holy shit, maybe we should sign them.
You know, like, like, you're not Franco Hera at the at the at the Met, you know, or like, just working your job, but you write poems and just a habit of the one of the best folks in 20th century. Like, like the percentage, the percentage chance of that is so low. Yeah. You know, that like, why not?
Wouldn't it be more effective to a work a job that pays enough that you can finance everything that you don't need nobody? B, do something that gives you enough prestige for clouds outside of art that people are like, oh, shit, you do this in art. Right. Or C, like, oh, do crime.
Rob Lee: Like, I don't know, like, like, like you said, put all your eggs in one basket.
Joseph Cochran II: It's just like, I don't know, like, and I've been there on like, some non-art shit, like putting all putting all of my things in one thing. And then, you know, like, it falls to the wayside as it does because the center cannot hold. Okay. You know, so it's it diversification is always important. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's real.
Rob Lee: Like, you know, and I love those examples, like the sort of the balance that I have, and it's like using sort of both hemispheres of the mind, you know, like I work in a sort of data field as far as the day job, and I do this and I mentioned folks, they're like, how do you do?
And it's like, you're not thinking hard enough. That's right. And, you know, literally, I can do the storytelling to show how they're connected.
That's a skill. Like, I can use the data analysis background to make the the data work and show my data from this creative. And I can use the creative side, which I'm gonna, you know, adapt the storytelling, the storytelling to show like why this data matters and let both of them watch each other's hands.
And then now add in in the last year, two years, really, the education thing, then it's just like, yo, now I'm separating myself from Joe podcast with a microphone, you know, just whatever this person is doing. And but at times, and I've had this conversation today, what you're doing is not successful. You need to just put everything in one basket. I was like, that doesn't work.
That's not how that that goes, especially not now. And I and I think the grind thing in that sort of hustler culture or whatever version of it is, it's very, very much something that's created here. Like I'm, I'm a high achiever and get a lot of stuff done, but it's like refining and focusing that laser and that attention in a way that it moves things and it's productive versus I can do a lot and I'm not really efficient in any of these things, but you're doing so much. Yeah. So I'm gonna move into this because, you know, like I said, a few weeks ago, we saw each other. So you're based in NYC and you've traveled internationally for residency exhibitions, cologne, Brussels, I see in there. So how is working abroad while staying rooted in, you know, sort of this, this cultural mecca of like New York and I feel really cringe saying it, but I do believe it. How's that like shaped your perspective on our, your perspective on your own work?
Joseph Cochran II: Towards the beginning of what I now know to be a practice, you know, like when I, like when I moved to China, for example, like when I moved to China, you know, I had like a severe, like mental breakdown, like severe, severe, like three weeks in, you know, and, and, you know, like a lot of that had to do with the fact that like, you know, you know, my grandmother was very close to me passed away, you know, it was just this whole like confluence of like things hitting me, the fact that like I had never been on a plane before moving to China, you know, like my parents had never taken a, taken a flight, you know what I'm saying? Like my parents, I'm never really letting me go to New York, you know, and if my father did leave New York City, it didn't change, you know what I'm saying? Like, so I'm like, damn, like, I'm, I'm now in this place, police don't even got guns, you know what I'm saying? Like, and I, and I have time, like, sort of first time I've had time, I'm just like, getting up every day, yeah, I go to work, but I only work for me hours a week, and then I'm just to my own device, you know, and one of the thing, and also on top of that, I had this worry that I would be gone for however long I would be gone, and I would lose myself in that. And losing myself would mean losing my identity as a New Yorker, because it's where I'm from is where I am, you know what I'm saying?
I'm more, you know, I'm saying like, obviously, like my defaults, I'm a black man, but you know, one A, one B, is where I'm from and who I am, you know what I'm saying? And, you know, like, especially in China, I made sure that at every moment I got, I got to do, every moment I had, I got to do things that I would do at home. You know, and this is something that I adopted everywhere that I went. Like, yeah, the exterior might be different, but when I'm in to myself, I'm gonna do, I'm gonna do what I do normally, you know what I'm saying? Like, you know, I mean, I mean, my old lady, if you could talk to her, she'll tell you, like, you know, I was the one living in China, like we were living in Chinese Communist housing, which was like six-story, like concrete buildings.
And I would leave the door open, like middle of the summer, like literally smoking cigarettes inside, like listening to dipset and doofs and like full blast, like shirtless, just, just to feel like I'm home, you know, just to feel like I'm on the block, like chilling, you know what I'm saying? Because like, you know, and I met a lot of people who like moved to these countries that I've lived in, just worked in, who like, they tried to assimilate into society, right? But coming from where I come from, you know, coming from New York, like, what does assimilation even mean? I just want to assimilate to being in New York, right? You know, such a diverse, like place.
You know what I'm saying? Where there's something for almost every kind of culture. So for me, like, assimilating to, especially to a city, which is the case that I had in Shanghai, like I'm living in the city, like, I'm not about to run around, like, with Miles Redbook and like, I'm just like, a part of, a part of the team now, because that's not, that's not, that's not true.
Yeah. So, and quite frankly, you know, everywhere that I've been abroad, like, people make sure that, that you know, you're not a part of whatever they're in. You know what I'm saying? Like, you are, you know, you are a guest in their space. You know what I'm saying? You know, so for me, I think it's always been pretty easy to retain that, you know, I think to, I think to a lot of people, well, now people know me a little bit better, but I think, um, when I first came back home, people kind of had to see that, like, oh, you know, like, he's shamed, he's no longer this, he's no longer that, so, but very quickly, I'm so realized, like, that he was able to just like, kind of stay who he is, you know, and again, like, I think, I think a big part of that is one, being a guest in the space and two, the things that we do to retain ourselves in that space, you know, but also like, I mean, I gave you an example, like, you know, um, especially in Europe, like, you know, New York is such a, is such a, uh, such a nexus point, that, you know, the moment people would hear not from New York City, like the conversation would cease to be about, like, whatever, like, cultural shit they got to be doing in their, in their place, they're like, oh, shit, not, you're from New York, you're from where culture is, right?
Like, almost as if they're saying, who are we to tell you how to live when, like, all we want is to live the lifestyle you're living, right? So, so, you know, like, I think in that sense, it was, it was easy, like, I don't know, if I would have been from like, I would have been from like Nebraska or something, maybe it would have been difficult, maybe it would have been no facial to Nebraska, you know, but maybe it would have been like a different, a different story, you know, but I think coming from as you call it, the cultural mecca, like, it really benefited me, you know.
Rob Lee: Yeah, it's this, this retention and I just want to add this, because, because, like, you know, especially in the globalized world today, like, in today's globalized world, excuse me, like, they shout hi, like, this is listening to the same shit, right? Like, you know, like, like, I remember on this last story, I'll get on this, but I remember on the little, little kerfuffle I got into kind of club once, you know, two Chinese kids walking, no, those got bandanas on their head, like, sagging pants, beanie styling belts. And, you know, like, homie come up to me, he's like, yo, what's good, my nigga? Like, what up, my nigga?
And I'm like, I'm like, yo, nigga, this is gonna kill for less. You know what I'm saying? Like, who do you think you're talking to? Like, you know, and I was like, I'll snap the shit out of you, you know what I'm saying? It became a whole thing, you know, security guards, sort of whole thing happened.
I was a regular there, so I was fine. But, you know, his man, who was the smarter of the two, you know, I have a conversation with him now, I'm like, yo, I'm like, I'm even trying to hang out, you know what I'm saying? I'm gonna dress the way you want to dress. But you're not filming the coming in, coming to me and transmit what you think my culture is to me.
Right. And, you know, you know, I was like, you know, I appreciate that you're into this. I mean, like, you know, for me, it's incredible.
I mean, like, you know, all the years I lived abroad, you know, how fair it was to meet people who were from where I was from. You know what I'm saying? Like, it's great to see people who are like, into it, you know, like, this is not a story, but it's not an example. I mean, like, first time I heard the West Side gun was from like a Belgian. You know what I'm saying?
Like, you know, so these kinds of things that like, you know, it keeps you tethered. And it definitely isn't fair. It definitely depends on the way you're from.
You know, but I think, you know, and that's always going to be a privilege to be from here. Because like, I don't know if our culture can die. I don't know if it can be like, you know, maybe there are strong cultures, you know, I'm saying, like, in terms of residents. But I think, but I think, I think New York City's culture is so like, it's faith and so like, valued and wanted that it just cannot be like, it's a fire that can't be extinguished.
Rob Lee: Yeah, I agree with that. Yeah, I'm dating New Yorker for one. And she's like, yeah. But she lived here for like 20, she's like, I'm a New Yorker. I was like, I fair enough. And I think, like, when you're going to those different places, and I think this is why in part, because I think my approach is very similar of just maintaining who you are, just being true to who you are, and whatever you identify with. So, you know, when I go to a different place, I'm still trying to do the same. I'm going to take it maybe some of the sites and see some of that from a cultural interest standpoint. But that same sort of drive is there, even where I'm at, like, oh, what's this new show that's happening with this new restaurant, making that sort of same approach to a different place. I'm gonna have way too many protein shakes, I'm probably going to lift weights.
It's going to be the same sort of like rundown. I'm not going to try to over ingratiate myself in something that's not mine, almost in a look at me or a try hard sort of way. It's just like, get some culture, I want to get depth in that way and kind of understand it a bit more. But I'm not deviating too far from what I normally would do.
Joseph Cochran II: Yeah, man. And I think especially in the case of, you know, what I do, people kind of appreciate my approach more in my experience because, like you said, I'm not the weird, noisy European woman in Uganda wearing a daisui. You know what I'm saying? Like, you know, I'm just like, oh, cool, like, I fuck with what you're doing.
But I mean, how can I fit in while not doing anything that you do? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know what I'm saying? Like, but you know, yeah, yeah, I mean, yeah, I'm in Italy, I'm going to drink the app, but you know, I'm like, everybody else, you know what I'm saying? I don't have, you know what I'm saying?
But at the same time, I'm like, I'm going to, you know, talk any different, or walk any different, or go about anywhere differently, just because I'm in a different place. I don't think that's right. Because like, you know, I mean, I mean, these fucking pilgrims, they come, they come to America and they, and they add like, it's their culture. Yeah, they add like, their culture is like the dominant shit here. You know what I'm saying? Like, fuck it out. Like, why, why, why would I change anything up? You know what I'm saying? I hear you. I hear you.
Rob Lee: So I want to move into this next question and sort of, you know, tease it a few times. But you know, we met in person recently for the first time, like, we did this interview a few years back, we met in person for the first time. And it's usually this thing that's a different vibe. You meet somebody in person, you know, like, yo, just do whack. Like, because me, initially, look, you know, this is the thing, I'll keep it, I don't like people initially when I first meet them.
I'm like, hi, who? And it was very different with you. Like our mutual friend, Cam, she, you know, gassed it up. It was like, Joey's great.
I was like, we'll see. That was literally my energy right into it. And then it was absolutely right. And you know, you have this, this taste about you have like this really good sense of humor fashion. Like, you know, you had to, you were out here like a Pope fixtures character.
You know, I actually bought two hats, by the way, as a result. You know, you know, you obviously photography, you know, you know, about film, you're talking about this different stuff and really cool conversations. And it's very rich. And in a very short period of time, which was really dope, I was like, Oh, this is a full experience. Where does that sort of broad array of interest and sort of just, I guess, I guess interest is the best way to put it, but where does that come from that eclecticism?
Joseph Cochran II: Oh, man, I mean, I've been trying to figure out my strengths. You know, I think that, well, at the top of the totem, you know, all credit and all praise is due to my grandmother, Marjorie, you know what I'm saying? Like, you know, she was the kind of person I mean, she came, she came to New York City as like a 14, 15 year old in 1962.
You know what I'm saying? At like the beginning of like the hippie generation. She wasn't really that, but she was around all that, you know? And, you know, like, for my early formative years with her, like, either by proxy or directly, she just put me on all kinds of shit. Like, you know, one of my favorite things to do with her was, you know, I don't know how TV is, how cable was all the more, but I feel like the blocks are the same in this regard, like Fox, the, the, the Island of the News, Simpsons, Will of Fortunes, the Jeopardy, Will of Fortune, Nightly News Blog. Every day, I would get out of school, watch Tuna'umi, fuck, and I then like sit there and watch this stuff with her. I would watch Jeopardy with her. Jeopardy completely changed my life. Like, like, you know, like it was this kind of thing where, you know, Jeff watching it with her completely changed everything with me because like, I would watch this stuff and, you know, like, obviously trivia games, those a lot of stuff being said. And I would ask you like, oh, like, what's this? Oh, what's that? Oh, Maximilian Roast here.
Who is that? All right, Junior, go get the Botanical, like, talk about it. You know what I'm saying? She was a very open person in that way. You know, she told me like an adult, she would like really like break the stuff down with me the best way she could. You know, so that's kind of like the top of the totem pole. And then I would say like, you know, after me and her were separated, then I began living in Brooklyn with my foster family, like, I was a very timid kid, like, I always say like, like, in the projects that I grew up in, like, I'm probably like, top 20 soft as nigga there.
But like, outside of it, I feel tough at 85% of it. So, so like, to them, I was like, fucking awesome Orpheus kind of kid, you know what I'm saying? Like, oh, this nigga like literally the daisies is here, like, you know, he has the books. Look at him, he's reading.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, he's some reading nigga, you know. So, so, you know, like they would, so, you know, like, people in my hood like me, you know, I'm saying like, they really fucking me and like my family, like, serious, serious people, you know. So like, I was protected in my hood. And, you know, the foundation of that protection was, listen, you got two options, you can stay in the books, or you can be in the street. If you're gonna be in the street, we're not gonna protect you. You're just one of us. But if you stay in the books, you're good.
You know what I'm saying? So I would go to the library like every day almost, you know, whenever I had an opportunity to. And like, even before I could like, understand what I was reading, I was just, wow, this, this title is funny, The Gay Science by Friedrich Nietzsche. Let me just like, flip through this and like, check this out.
You know, or, or like, oh, let me go on the internet and go on an intro fire and see what's going on there. You was always like, I was surrounded in a world that I didn't understand. And I was obsessed with understanding, you know. And, you know, especially again, my grandmother, she really implanted in me this idea of like, yo, most of shit, like just ask about it. Try to figure it out, you know, like, and most importantly, like, you know, let your curiosity guide you.
And for better or for worse, that's that's what I've done throughout most of my life. Because I just, you know, I can't really explain it. Like I just have like these kind of feelings. And I'm like, Oh, that's interesting. Let me check that out. Oh, this is something I mean, let me look into this.
And they have to be, you know, to be a word, it could be a letter, it could be a number plate somewhere. I just, I can't really explain that, you know, and, and I think that I've always been a pop culture guy, like, you know, I love, love, love, love, love pop culture. And I got even more involved in your pop culture when I found out that Stanley Kubrick was also a pop culture guy, also NFL guy, which I thought was interesting, you know, and, you know, reading these historical accounts of like creators and thinkers that I liked. Yeah, I think gave me kind of like a pathway to see how I said, you know, I'm saying, because it was like, Oh, like, yeah, in the real, in the present material world, people are telling me that intellectual does X, Y and Z, right?
And to A, B and C. But I see some of these people like Arthur Jaffa, right in my black desk talking about going to see space Odyssey. Yeah. All right. So what does that have to do with any of his work?
Rob Lee: Well, let me let me put this your way. I, you know, I think that, you know, it's this thing where when I mentioned, I'm a smart-ish dude. I'm always self deprecating. I'm a smart-ish dude. And, you know, when I have conversations with folks who, you know, talk about the stuff that they're into and talk about it really intellectually, right?
Yes. They look down on these other things. They look down on like the NFL. They look down on sports. They look down on like pop culture.
And it's almost as a neatest, snobbish thing. I can't, I can't really jam with you. And then I was like, I can, I'll get the sense of it. And I find like, when I get the sense of the, the, the, the, the clause come out and it's just straight intellectual wit.
I'm a villain when it comes to it. I was like, so you know, the NFL is just like a doctrine around strategy, right? Like that's literally just chess, right?
You want to just chess with you. And no, it's not like, are you? It is.
Yeah. It's like, look at it. It's like, look at it.
And it's, it's, it's that. And one of the things you touched on, like the, you know, you, you mentioned your grandmother and sort of like, you know, Jeopardy, you know, I'm a Jeopardy here myself, by the way. I'm a big Jeopardy guy. And I remember, I'm really into like cooking and trying out different things, curiosity, right? And I remember, you know, as a kid, I was really into illustration.
I wanted to be a comic book artist. You know, my, I mentioned on this podcast before, she was a, she was a me, a me, a mender or seamstress. And she took elements in my dad's like duffel bag. He was a, he served in Vietnam. He had one of those giant duffels.
Yeah. And then one of these like, oh, like almost attache ties with like canvas and had holes in it. So she used elements in his bag to mend that. And that became my first art bag.
And I still have it in studio right now. And, you know, she was really into like PBS, you know, so it's like, yo, you didn't be watching Sesame Street. You're going to be watching like these different cooking shows. And that's where my love cooking came from, you know, but just having that and then sometimes I have to cook with her and things of that nature. You just learn these things.
And I think as you become older, it just becomes part of your personality. Like, you know, someone to ask, like, you know, I've had chef that I've talked to, they're like, you know, you just have a chef mentality, right? Or I'll talk to someone who's a curator and I'm thinking deeply about how they want about something.
You know, you're just curating, right? And it's sort of that curiosity, but sort of the depth and the interest of it. Like you going on Angel Fire was happening over here. Deep dive has been way too much time doing it.
Joseph Cochran II: But that's what I'm saying. And I mean, also, I'm a comic guy too. But, you know, like, that's my thing. It's like, you know, my grandma, she was very like, you know, especially in comparison to where I ended up, like after our time with her, like, she, she would have likely been considered a progressive parent today, you know, in the sense of like, the first video game I ever had, I don't say the C8, she voted for me. You know, where she was like, she wouldn't get the game stop. And she's like, Oh, what game is going to make him read? Oh, this is RPC. Hit that.
You know, she fully supported me like watching it today. And like, won't be comics. And won't be like that. She was cool. But she was like, like, to her, like, she wanted to make sure that education was like fun for me. And it just happened to align with my mentality. And I mean, also, like, you know, I think that I got really lucky and had really good like mentors and stuff throughout my life. Like, like, I thought we were just all talking about I didn't go to my first museum or something like 14, you know, like in New York City. And then like, that was only because I had a therapist in high school, who just over her me one day, just talking about some like, some like painting that I didn't even I don't remember the artist was like some, some somebody in the cannon.
Yeah, I was talking about it. And I was just like, kind of like, Oh, like, yeah, like this or the brushstrokes there, this thing is 30. He's like, Oh, you look at art like often. I was like, Oh, computer. Like, he's like, you know, those like the man, you don't do this like one thing.
I'm an imposter, bro. Like, what you be like, I'm back at age, you know, like, he's like, Oh, yeah, we have to, I gotta take, I gotta take it a mobile. You know what I mean? Like, definition to the moment, you know, like, to be to the met, all of a sudden, I couldn't I couldn't leave that place. I was so curious about it.
You know, I was just go there, like back when students would get like good time there. So I was like, just chill out, ask people questions, you know, like my grandma would be like, you know, parents always tell you not to talk like strange, you know, she's like that. But like, you know, for her, it was like, well, you know, when you come of age, like, all the strangers, you know, say, like, you might learn something, you know, like, and I and, you know, like her teachings, the things that that she showed me and then my mentors who were kind of similar in the future, they all have this kind of like same directive, just like, follow, follow the thread, you know, don't try to, try to be taken, you know, try to be moved, you know, and things that move me, making me curious. And I'm gonna dive into it more.
Rob Lee: It reminds me of before I move to this next question, it reminds me of what Austin Cleon talks about all the time and still, you know, still like an artist, you know, all of that stuff. And he'd mentioned sort of you, you find, you find these different lessons from, you know, sort of your masters and a lot of times that those those masters aren't here, but they left their roadmap. So you just follow what those things are. And, you know, say, hey, the lesson, lesson plans.
So you just follow through on these things. And it's a lot there. And I think it's, you know, contemporarily, things have been sullied.
I'll tell you this, one of the things that I do when I'm looking for information, I go into Google, and I put parameters in terms of time on it, give me real articles, but before the last 10 years, well, you really interviews before the last 10 years, because some brain rot, some weird things have been filtered into that, and give me that as I use maybe a music term, give me that so I can build out stems stems of what I use as a basis for the questions done when I ask. There's at least a nugget there. Let me build off of that.
So it might be, let me look at some old Charlie Rose interviews. How did he approach this? How did he go about it?
And going into it? And, and I say this all the time, I'm not like you niggas. I'm like, Oh, let me take a look at these interviews and build off of that. Let me do some research versus just not having anything set and then just going off the cuff with some of these ill-informed questions. Let me let me actually put some effort and some thought and some merit to what I'm doing and that all is rooted in sort of curiosity and didn't follow and following what seems to align and then see if it does align. So speaking of which, you asked some questions. I got a couple questions about this overstandard magazine interview that you did. And, you know, one, and we touched on a little bit of this earlier, but, you know, in this, this interview, you mentioned you've always been interested in the streets and, you know, how ties back to your upbringing and such.
And I find, you know, folks distance themselves a lot of times from their roots, especially when they gain some level of access. Yeah, you're new. Yeah, I'll let it all more.
That's not me at all. You know, a lot of the, you know, they're based in Brooklyn, but it's like, you're from Baltimore. You can't do both, you know what I mean? Why does the, why is that hold and that interest still there as far as the streets, the streets culture per se?
Joseph Cochran II: Well, I mean, like, well, I mean, one, you know, like, I don't, you know, live in the model a little bit more, you know what I'm saying? I mean, I'm around there every now and then, you know, but I don't live in the model. I was just there like two nights ago.
Rob Lee: You're there. You know, do some stuff. But, but, you know, like, I
Joseph Cochran II: think, I think one, just, I don't know how to say it's obvious. I'm just mental because I'm not, I'm not judging anyone in particular. It's just like an archetype I'm speaking about. But I think that, you know, people tell us, especially like, we are averse to monolithic thought, but we tend to think about a different, if you want to say it is. And, and I think that even in black culture, we miss that there is, there are class dynamics that are really, really, really important to know, you know, if I, for example, like, you know, when I began to live in Brooklyn, starting with Brownsville and later Eastern York, like, there are actual cutoff points, actual perimeters to the neighborhood that are very easy to see. And, you know, like, I'm okay to a front, these cutoff points, maybe to be blocked over.
And, like, The difference in their mentalities can be like 90 day compared to us. So just two or three blocks over from where Browseville ends is too family. It is about your kids living with two parents.
Sure. Two parents households. You know what I'm saying? Whereas like in Sefflow houses in Browseville is 15 floors of just fucking like madness and pain. You know what I'm saying?
Like you want a two-parent house. Right. You know what I'm saying? And this has a big impact on how you move and how you do things. And then I think that in the arts especially there's a crop of, you know, to speak on black people. I can't speak on brown people or something like that. I can't speak on black people. But speaking on black people, there's a crop of people that I often call black Republicans who like they, you know, what is convenient when they're around their people. They are of struggle. When really their life is just like little class white people. You know what I'm saying?
Which is not wrong. I wish I would have grew up like that. You know what I'm saying? Like I grew up here. I grew up here. But you know, like I'm not going to sit here and like what's the way that I grew up?
I'm not going to sit here and like, oh yeah, you know, I traveled abroad and did all this. Now I'm just not that anymore. It's like, no, my father's that. Like my cousins is that. You know what I'm saying?
Like, they're going to see every day is that right? No, like, like, like who would I be to just like, oh, yeah, I'm not involved in that anymore. So, you know, I'm going to like change up on you guys. It's like, no, like, you know, like this is the world that I live.
It's the world that I'm around. And then also there is unfortunately the race component to it where, you know, like people see a poor black artist, you know, or an artist that has less that happens to be black. They immediately think that you come from trouble. They immediately think that you, you know, and when it gets wrong is when people like need into that, you know, I think that's bad, especially if you don't come from that because there's a bunch of artists that you're on gatekeeping when you do that, you know, not that whether you're from the streets for now should be the reason like that you're moving. But your story is significant in art. You know what I'm saying? Like, it's, I think it's, I think it's important and it's important to always reflect whatever space you have.
And, you know, like, you know, like, most like the question you asked earlier about like, oh, you know, when I'm in a foreign country, like how do I retain myself? Like, you know, it's like they say, you can take, you can take them out the hood. You can take the hood out of them. Like, like why, oh, you can take them out together. You can get together out of them. It's like, and I don't want to be taken down.
You know what I'm saying? Like, why would I want that taken down? Why would I want to, you know, like, who am I trying to please? What I'm going to perform some kind of like uppity blackness, you know, I'm going to perform some kind of whiteness. What does it serve when like, when like, when like all of them want to be like us?
Rob Lee: And that's, and that's the thing. That's the thing where, especially now, just, this is a small addition to that sentiment. You know, in the moment that, let's say you start acting quote unquote brand new, right? You're like, I'm this now.
It's like, why is your hair like slick to the side? What are you doing, bro? You're one unearthed tweak from just like, yeah, well, you was doing this back 10 years ago. So it's just like, yo, just be you. Maybe you sort of, I'm into this now, but it can't be a complete sea change, tonal change of what, who a person is. And when a person is like, when I look at sort of this arc and I'm very into my stuff, right? So when I go back and look at sort of my saturation and being a podcaster, right?
There is a track record, almost like a journal. Yeah. For me being 24 when I started to 40 now, I can go on the same timing, right? But there are certain things that's like, yeah, I've been saying this almost two decades.
I still had the same philosophies and the same thoughts and same perspectives. And maybe it's more refined. Maybe it's sort of, I've gotten rid of it, but it can't be a full change because then it's just like, what's it authentic to begin with?
Joseph Cochran II: Absolutely. And I mean, you know, like, I mean, I mean, like, how many examples we see of like, it would be in the mood for nothing. No, I'm like, changing up, you know what I'm saying? Like, for like going, for like going crazy, they're like, when they wake up and they realize they don't have the community, you know, like, and also like, you know, people will really stop with me.
You know, they would say something if I was like, actually, if I was like, active, different, you know, what are you doing, bro? Yeah. And I mean, also, like, you know, and I got to emphasize this, you know, I don't know many details, but you know what I'm saying? Like, besides the time that I was a boy, even when I was a boy, like, you know, like I go to places like, I don't take me, take me to the equivalent of here.
I'm gonna see. I'm saying, like, not also like, oh, I want to be around the YNs. But more so, like, I want to see what it looks like. I'm going to see how people are living, you know? And, but here, you know, like, the whole time that I've been making arts since I did back here, like, I've always had a close proximity to street shit.
Yeah, that's the worst. And, you know, like, to the point that like, I don't know, you know, hang out with almost 60s Crimson and go like, museum shows. You know what I mean?
Like, it's always been a close proximity. It's something that I can't really shake, you know, because like, like, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not rich. You know what I mean?
Like, I'm not like ostensibly, I'm still in the same class that I've been in my whole life. Yeah. So just because like, just because a gallery besides this show, he doesn't mean that I should like, you know, drink up my pinky out now. You know what I'm saying?
Rob Lee: You don't drink with your pinky out? What are you doing, bro? What's happening?
Joseph Cochran II: You know, you know what I mean? Like, you know, and I think that so many people, they're just ashamed of who they are. And, and, and many people are ashamed of being black. Not not that being black is being important. I don't mean that.
Right. Remember, but, but, you know, I think that like people are, people are ashamed of the classic on something ashamed of the creed that they have the race that they are. I've never, I've never had that kind of, I've never felt that kind of shame. You know what I'm saying? I never felt like, you know, I've always felt like, yeah, you know, I want more money, but like, I ain't really got no beef with the, yeah, it should happen. You know, so like that, but I fuck with people.
You know, like, like more so than rich areas. I mean, I go, I saw people telling me how people telling me how you asked me how I'm doing. Yeah. So like that, you know what I'm saying? You know, like, like, I'm like, I see and feel more humanity here than I feel in these so-called like, our spaces, you know, these so-called spaces of culture. So why would I want to disentangle myself from that? Why would I want to be any different? Like, I'm not like, I'm a civilian.
I ain't no problem. Like that's so much response. Like these are just neighborhoods to me. You know what I'm saying? Like, and why would I not want to be in the neighborhood?
Rob Lee: I feel the same way. And I'm glad you said that piece is sort of like, not feeling that sort of peace and not feeling that, and now paraphrase that sort of welcome when you're in these places of culture.
You know, I don't like that vibe of I go there, I do this and I kind of share with you maybe where I feel like I fit in some of these things. But I don't have credentials. So I'm not technically a journalist, but I do something with journalistic intent. I'm not an artist, but I do something with an artistic been an artistic approach to it.
I do an archival project, all of these sort of different things and just regular civilian, regular, regular people. Those are the ones that, you know, we like what you do. We appreciate what you do and sort of the space where the sort of my entry and my access and my ability to maybe draw out the personality of someone who is an artist who is a creative who is in that space. The people who are around sort of the gatekeeper, the sort of the people that hold the keys, if you will, they want to connect with me.
Then they kind of come with this sort of exploitative sort of approach and this exploitative dynamic and I see it and then that sort of activities. Like, yo, I see a scam. I see it.
Yeah, that's not a scam that comes from maybe being involved in some things at a point or have you and being around it. You see it, you know it. And, you know, cool.
Joseph Cochran II: You got it. And that's kind of another thing too, which you just brought up like, you know, again, before like I had a backing of like a gallery. I was getting impressed about me like that.
There was people in my hood that was supported. You know what I'm saying? What that was saying? I, yo, you will, that's like, you are saying like, it was those people who were like, who like, you know, I go out and I meet and I meet. They frenzy that, yo, let's do right here is like that we does. You know, I'm saying you should know, you know, I'm saying, oh, you can put them in any room and he could talk to anybody. You should talk.
You know what I'm saying? Like it was always that, you know, whereas like in spaces that we're both referring to, like, you know, people, people are a lot more cynical, a lot more skeptical, you know, and oftentimes not saying, oh, I'm not trying to make a broad declaration of people. But, you know, like in my experience, I mean, a lot more cynical ironically, I mean, a lot more cynical people in these places, in these spaces of like cultural capital and I do in spaces.
Rob Lee: You know, the same thing when we, when I was up with you on and why you were like, yeah, that's Robbie's from blah, blah. And, you know, Robbie does this.
He's a media. One of those things is, you know, I pay attention to it. And it's not like I was doing it like actively, but that dynamic is different from in mind. We're just meeting in person.
He'd been on the power. We're just meeting in person at that time. It's folks that I know that's down here. It's like, oh, yeah, he does this whole podcast. Oh, yeah. And it's someone who is in this sort of place of influence and of cultural relevance. And it's just like this little, it's like that bed is like, how's your little job coming along?
Joseph Cochran II: It's not played with sort of the merit that's there. And it sets a, it sets an intent and it sets a perspective of the person receiving it. And it's just like, oh, you know, cool.
Whereas this is just like on its merits and, you know, the way that you presented it is on its merits. And then, you know, let those interactions kind of foster naturally and a couple of them did that night. And that's all people human, you know, I mean, like in a real way. But I mean, like, yeah, I mean, you know, and I mean, I mean, I'm not saying like people that do that kind of shit, they count.
You know what I'm saying? And they, and they, and they like, and they don't believe in themselves first because of you, because of you believing in yourself. Like, I don't do this.
I might do something like this. I'll be like, oh, this person's a fantastic. You know what I'm saying? Like, cause it was like, no one does what I do. So I don't do what they do.
Like, why would he go? I've got nothing to do with me. Right. But what I can say is if I respect what you do, like, oh, that's line Z. I fuck with them. They had to pay it with me. Thought you should fuck with. Yeah.
Rob Lee: Yeah. 100% like it's the thing where it's a vouching thing. Like I, I, I joke with my girl all the time. I was like, I got one and a half friends. She said, how does that even work? How does that math work? I was like, doesn't even work.
It doesn't even matter. And but when I'm in a spot, especially in doing this, I meet most of the people that I connect with. And this is sort of this teared out thing. And I think when people talk about sort of art friends and this desire to connect, especially how we are in current society, you know, connection is very, very weird. So I'm like, I visit my friends and if I go to a place and I have people there, I'm going to hit them up like, yo, you trying to like chop it up, grab a coffee, bong, bong, because it's already been vetted.
It's already there. And it's a means of especially if it's a city that I'm not familiar with. And it's like, oh, you're showing me something new.
So now we have the other currency. I've now learned something from being in that person sort of thing. And I'm getting and I'm getting that perspective from them. What is their version of this versus me doing maybe something tourist adjacent on me?
Just kind of, I don't know, getting like recommendations, but it's sort of like, this is what this person does. This is this whole in this wall we're going to go to. We're going to check this out. It's like, cool, I'll follow in the leader.
We good. You're able to pick up different things that this is. This is where it's really interesting. When you come back to a place, especially when you've had those connections and sort of what's baked in those connections, you're almost able to do your own version of it. You might be retracing those same steps.
Joseph Cochran II: That was 1000%.
Rob Lee: You're broad and it'll touch. So, yeah, I got two more real questions and the next one is related back again to that article, that interview. You said in there that nearly every photo you've taken, you remember the circumstances in which you took them and how they made you feel. So, I'm curious, what makes a subject or moment stand out enough for you to capture it?
Joseph Cochran II: It depends. I feel like I have the same answer to you as like the curiosity question, you know, whereas like sometimes, sometimes it's like, I can't really explain it. You know, like I can't really put that into words. But, you know, like, I think I've told this story in the overstanding people I say here. Like, maybe I told them private. But, well, at first, so when Neema and I first started to live in like the center of Shanghai, you know, I was like, like, I don't need pork or whatever.
And a lot of that in China. And I would kind of struggle with time to time like five maybe like food. Yeah. Like, so I was like, shitty like all the time and stuff like that. You know, and one day I'm at the park and I was like, smells like, smells like a law firm. Someone like, what is that? Where does that have?
The following smell and then come across a whole, a whole junior market happening like literally like a few blocks from my house. Yeah. But we're doing this so much. Man, like, so busy. Like, like, Chinese, it's not cool. You just say like, you know, I'm like, this one we like, like raceplacers. They don't have something, you know, I come to find out that they were weaker, they were weaker Muslims.
Right. And, you know, they're seeing, they're seeing me, which like, you know, like in China, I mean, like you black, like black women have a lot of words. Some frictions, people like you black, like they take pictures, you on phone, like all kinds of shit. But like this time I walk through this shit and like, if I chose, you want to be like, oh, I'm like, oh, why? You know, my mind is being blown so much so that I can't even like take pictures.
I'm just like, why is all and all I'm like, sensorally, sensorally over the like, you know, literally. Um, and then like this woman coming basically speaking English, we got into a conversation, um, I bought like food and all that stuff. She thought, oh, she come out of mass. So I should meet the email, you know, show like, came to mass at the email.
Same day I meet the email. One of his cousins is about to get married. It's going to get married.
Yeah. And he, um, he does, I never seen this, but he's walked to the center of the mass and he starts doing like this kind of like him, like the weaver language starts doing this kind of like a call. You know, um, I'm like, I'm asking him, I'm like, what is he doing?
He's like, oh, he's doing like a ceremony and call for his wife. And I like to do like, sees me, could I take a picture of him while he's doing it? Do sees me. He walks over and, um, we get to, we get to chat a little bit through the email because he couldn't speak English.
Yeah. And he was like, yeah, this guy wants to invite you to the wedding. And I was like, excuse me.
He's like, yeah, he's like, you're invited to the wedding. I was like, really? Wow.
Wow. Like, I thought like, I kind of get misty eyed, you know? And then, uh, so then I came, you know, I came, I came to the wedding and I mean, like, I'm literally in a mosque of like 400, like 400, 500, like Chinese Muslims, you know, we are Muslims. Then like, this is like, and I mean, at this point, I had done my rabbit hole.
I like learned about their persecution, the ethnic cleansing that's happening there and everything. And, you know, like, I remember standing behind, um, some of the, some of the brides, like people just looking at the scene, some serving scene. I was like, I was like, I, I was, and this is actually my first experience, like photographic margin, a lot of people, you know, and, um, and I'm sitting here, like, you know, I think, I think this is why I'm doing what I'm doing. You know, I think this is what I should be doing. You know, and, and yeah, like that, you know, I mean, like a situation like that, you know, like, how do you put that? How do you, how do you like, you know, like, I, I, I mean, like, that's also, I gotta take something with me. You know what I mean?
God, I leave it with science, you know, and, and the two images was what I left with, you know, I mean, there are other ones, but yeah, but the two images that are published on the side, I left with and some of those things like, you know, I may never see people again. They may, they may, who knows, Chinese make the size to genocide them. They may end up in a prison camp one day.
They're literally cameras in this mosque right now recording us because the Chinese government puts cameras in religious spaces. You know what I'm saying? Like this could go left tomorrow.
Right. And if it does, you know, and I get out of it, fine, or, you know, or something bad happens, then I want to be able to say, like, I was here with you. Experiencing this, you know, you impacted my life. And that's how the thing like, yeah, I mean, there's a lot of images I take that like they're really mundane and, you know, that's landscape or something like that.
But a lot of that will be, you know, me being in the space of stream, like, I'm just amazed I'm even here. Right. I'm just shocked that I'm seeing this right now. You know what I mean? Like, you know, like living in Sardinia and like making work there is like, you know, I'm literally in the center of an Italian island surrounded by mountains and every day I wake up, like, you don't see the city.
You just see mountains and countryside. And I'm like, you know, I feel like you have no, you have no empathy if that doesn't move you in some way. Right. You know what I mean? Like, or, or, or you've just been too privileged or too long.
You know what I'm saying? You know, like, like, I remember sleeping on floors with roaches and my social like that. And, you know, like to be, to then be in the space for to meet someone who was looking at me as an equal or even more than that. That moves me and that's why I document or I'm inspired by them and I photograph them, you know, like the refugee in the asylum seekers that I met.
I kept feeling so sad that I was seeing these mostly black men who kind of look like me, you know, but the only difference is that they don't have safe pastures. You know, and, and I'm sitting here. Tal is telling bitch on, on the other, on the other side of my table, you're gonna fucking cappuccino. Now they're sitting there and trying to like sell like Turkish shit. Right. You know what I mean? And to the point where this one guy is male who now is doing really well.
We talk often the paradigmically down that he's integrated with society. Like, you know, as well as things I might go home and come to sit down man. Like, like, who are like, what's going on? She was good, you know, like, you know, like, I'm black. You black.
We in this place, they ain't no black people. That's all, you know, and I come to talk to them and I and his crusade became my crusade. Right. All I'm saying because like, you know, I believe that everything is connected. We live a road. All is connected.
And you cannot. The specific, especially if photography at the level that I think that I'm doing that you, you know, it's like, it's like the two moves. What's that? Like, if one thing matters, everything matters. Like, you can't like, you can't sit here and. You know, you humanize yourself first. And then dehumanize others. We have, we have to feel and I think I've always been like a very sensitive person in very attuned to the feelings of people.
At least I think I am. I mean, obviously, like, I feel like it's kind of time, you know, but that's the one question. The other is like, man, sometimes it's just the feeling like I might see. Oh, I was talking to the last one about the family asking me about an image.
In Mexico. And I saw this girl while I was walking with a friend and she had, she had the Japanese kind of countries of love on her forehead. Like, like literally like here. I'm like, oh, you got the Dara and like, she was like, yeah, you're the first person to ever like.
Like I've met here that like knows it maximum like. And I'm like, yeah, like, why? And we got to all conversation about it.
I won't, I won't put the story out there, but she got from a certain kind of situation. And, you know, so, so, so, but I'm like, yeah, like whatever way people are treating you in this world was on your forehead. That's who you are. And I'm so happy, but I got to have this conversation with you. And, you know, I feel the need to take this photo.
Can I do it? And then also there's this situation where like, you know, like when I have the instinct to take a photo of someone, that was like, really? Me? Like seeing their face when they're like, wow, someone thinks I'm important enough.
That doesn't even know me. Right. To take a picture. You know what I mean? You know, and I don't know. I guess I'm just kind of a personal person. Now, like, I like to know how people feel. I like to like, I could sort of start to be a social practice, social work, you know what I'm saying?
Like, and a big part of social work is being able to empathize and most importantly being being able to be moved. You know what I mean? Like, so I don't know that answers the question because I think it's a real nebulous. Like, I'm just trying to figure that out myself, but, you know, these are definitely like things that do it for me.
Rob Lee: You know? No, I think that helps. And I think it does answer the question. A lot of times it's sort of one of the considerations and I think you really covered that.
You provided some good examples. So what I'm going to do is I'm going to move sort of the last question I have to the end. I'm going to hit you with these rapid fire questions because technically this last question actually kind of is a nice close out. So rapid fire. Let's shift gears into that. So don't overthink these. These, you know, I'm looking for the off the cuff answers, right?
And I got four of them of added to, I've added to, there's only two initially above added to. So what's one thing currently is part of your practice that you just want to unlearn? You want to just take out? Exposure rules. Yeah.
Legacy. This is what is something you think about often or something that you don't think about like at all? I know for me, I'm always like having this really weird relationship with downloads and numbers. I used to care about them a lot early on.
I don't care about them at all. And I feel like legacy is one of those things that we talk about in sports and I feel like there's a weird racial component to it. What about your legacy?
You've never won a chip. Yeah. What do you think about like sort of your legacy or your sort of your your history in this sort of archival? What is that you think about often or not at all as relates to your body of work over the life?
Joseph Cochran II: Well, well, first, I don't think about how anyone besides the people I saw with besides the people I who were kidding, I care about. Yeah. And I mean, the people who the people who whose opinion I do care about, they will tell you themselves like maybe I will only consider about their opinion at like a level like 30 or 40%. Like I kind of don't give a fuck about like, I don't care about numbers.
I don't care about national. I just care about making a lot of me, you know, in terms of legacy and I've always said this, you know, um. I mean, like my personal legacy will be whatever it will be.
You know what I'm saying? Like, you know, you know, anything to happen and then I'll manage whatever I don't give a fuck. But, you know, like I if this is any of this one, stay in touch with time. I just hope that one, I can't be seen as being a part of the candidate of photography and to that. Right.
And this takes me back to when I was living in Brussels, my relationship with that name. I'm thinking about quitting doing what I do. And we're talking to a professor. This professor told me I could look at my archive.
She's like, you know, you're a preponder, saying new ways of seeing for your culture. No, what the ever told me like that, you know, and, um, and I didn't believe it at all. You know, but, um, but now, you know, seven years later, whatever, how long it's been. Well, when it comes to the works like this, I just hope that someone will be able to build upon whatever it is I did and do it better. Okay. Here's the next one.
Rob Lee: Um, what football team do you support? What's your team?
Joseph Cochran II: I mean, I mean, I'm about the fault, the three New York teams, but, but I grew up in a great as household.
Rob Lee: Okay. I see. See, I was always looking for that. Like we do the default thing and then like in his thing, I know we're, we're at a sort of part where we're recording this since the beginning of the summer.
And, you know, we're both, I'm sure we're both going to be watching the game a little bit later of a different sport. Um, but yeah, like, you know, it was sort of the default thing. It's like, yeah, man, I got to go with the, uh, the wizards. I was like, I can't do that anymore. I can't go with the default. It's like, I'm a Nick's fan now and it's been like that for like the last year, but it's terms of football, definitely home team.
Joseph Cochran II: Uh, definitely, but, um, well, yeah, well, well, I would be too. Yeah. Jayden Daniels.
Rob Lee: No, no, no, no, I'm a Baltimore.
Joseph Cochran II: That's, that's definitely would be if you have a large accident, there's got to be Derek Henry. Yeah. I would be too.
Rob Lee: And it's, it's been that way the whole time and the lifelong Orioles fan too, which is not great. Um, so, you know, it's just like doing that. But, um, when I love when someone has like, yo, we got a rich sports history here. Yeah. I kind of rock with this other other team right here.
Joseph Cochran II: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like, when it was like rich, Shannon and like Jerry Rice and like, I was, I was crazy about the Raiders. You know what I'm saying? I was like, I was like one of my favorite teams.
Rob Lee: Oh, totally in Kauffman. Charlie.
Joseph Cochran II: Yeah. Yeah. I'm down. Yeah. I'm gonna be a Romanosky. I want. In Jaws and stuff. You know, you know, we got fucked over twice by our own coach about a patrons. I'm not, I'm not, I'm not a figure.
Rob Lee: I used to be a Patriots fan. Um, so here's the, here's the like the last one in the rapid fire portion. Uh, just, just from your, your POV or what have you, what is something like right now? Yeah. And this is the end of May, 2025 to really date it. What is something we should be paying attention to? Oh, shit. You're a worldly individual. Uh, um, prices of eggs. Like what? Yeah.
Joseph Cochran II: Yeah. I mean, I think most monetary managers, people should have paid. But, but like, uh, I would say, I would say, um, the South China Sea, um, you know, Taiwan, Chinese relations as well referred to me, South China Sea, the new strategic partnerships being made between like Japan, China, stuff like that. You know, um, I think people for those who don't understand why I'm saying this, like, I think it's only 90% of the chips that we use in our shit comes from Taiwan. You know, so, um, and the event and I'm not, you know, I made this mistake before.
I ain't made it now. I'm not saying who's right and who's wrong, but Chinese take the Chinese take over, take over Taiwan. You know, uh, we might, we, things might change a little bit for us. Right. And how we live here in West. So there's that, um, obviously Ukraine and Russia, the Ukraine, Russia situation. Um, if it is real Palestine, um, the, the genocide in Palestine, you know, I think people won't really understand the gravity of that and what it means.
Like not just the Palestinians, but what's going to be to the Western world. Um, other than that, uh, I think people should really, really, really pay attention to the, uh, how should I say to the, um, scavenging of public space, especially America, you know, um, like I've been calling the death of third spaces. You know, um, there's no like, you know, when I was a kid, like adults went to the community center and they would wake up, you know what I'm saying? Like obviously this happens in other states and like other like countries, definitely in other countries, but, um, especially here in New York, like third spaces are dying out, you know, like there's no, there's not, we're more and more losing the capacity to like, yo, yo, let's make up enough money. I bet that let's just go, let's just go like you're in square just fill in steps. Right. Let's just go to the party park and just chill here.
Let's just go to the seaport and chill there. Cause everything is being turned into monetary generators, right? Batteries. You know, um, there was just one space that had like Egypt, like what, what they call Egyptian architecture and palm trees and, um, like inside a building. It was a public space for like 40 years.
Yeah. Just got bought by like private equity and the main complaint was like, Oh, there's like homeless people hanging out in there. This is a third site. Well, yeah, it's a public space. Right. Sorry. You know what I'm saying? Hey, like who cares?
You know what I'm saying? But you know, this whole quality of life, um, the renewed, especially in New York, the renewed quality of life campaign, I think it has been disastrous for, uh, for us, you know, um, and, and people, and I think people will see that it is a key part as to why New York has become so expensive. You know, I would suggest everyone out there on air, one book you will want to read out of one of the books you just raised by this fellow named Alex Vitali who wrote the end of policing, but it's called, um, city of disorder. Uh, one second. Uh, we tell it, uh, city of disorder, how the quality of life campaign transformed New York politics.
Okay. You can find the PDF online for those of you guys who are into PDFs. But this details how mayor Bloomberg's quality of life campaign, which, which Eric Adams has like created a 2.0 version of that, like completely shifted.
Not only New York city politics, but the economy of New York. Yeah. And, um, and, you know, uh, this is happening. I mean, like in red states, this is, this has already happened. I mean, like you go to like Austin or you go to like fucking like Dallas or shit, like 75, 85% of the city is like privately owned. Right.
Something like, you know, there's no, like that a city needs this third spaces. Well, everyone's going to go crazy. And that's what we're seeing here. I didn't get to look out for that.
Rob Lee: And I think that's a good point. And that's why, you know, when folks aren't knowing how to be human because there's these socialize, we're doing those. Sort of online thing.
And that has a weird sort of, and not to even go into that tangent, but you, you have to do it in person. And, you know, gone are the days where you could just like walk around. It's like, you should be doing something. You should be going to a place. Frankly, I like to try to just check out libraries.
I'll spend time in a library and just goes back to, and I wasn't even one of those library kids when I was younger. It's just like, now I'm just going to go there because it needs to be a departure where I don't need to buy a coffee or to do the whole thing. Let me get a courtesy cup of water.
You know, I don't need to do any of that. I need to be there and you're able to connect. And, you know, I think that that's a big thing. And I think you're right. So I want to, I want to go into sort of the, the, the closing out here and sort of like wrap us up a bit. And there's two things that I want to do as we wrap up a close out here. One, I want to thank you for coming back on. I'm glad we were able to make this happen. You guys, you got me on any time.
Joseph Cochran II: And, you know, you know, when you get, when you get full facilities, you know, if, you know, if, if old Joey's practice is further ahead and I got some financial weight under me, you know what I mean? I could like pull up. I could be like, you know what I'm saying? I could be a recurring guest. I could be like, I mean, I mean, he's not culture anymore, but I could be like, well, it's a little recurring guest on road. You know what I'm saying? Just like pull up on you, you know? I don't know.
You know, I've been told probably to interview with Denver Goddard. Oh, shit. My Joe, that's, you know, all right. Like he was sitting down like 20 minutes in my chat. Tell you, let's do it.
Rob Lee: So in the other part I want to do in this close out is sort of give you the space to share anything that you have coming up in the, during the summer and it's, you know, three or so months. If you have anything you want to, you know, present and tell us about, you know, here's the opportunity to do so.
Joseph Cochran II: Tell you how right now I ain't all shit. So July 10th in New York, I have a exhibition opening up. It will be titled Public Work. If for those who have listened to this, you might get that I'm pretty public space oriented.
So that's going to be fun. Other than that, tentatively, as in, I'm still negotiating some contracts and logistics, I am supposed to undertake a project in the former Yugoslavia, where where I will, it's a proposal, it's an original proposal that I made for for Go 2025, which is the European Capital of Culture destination, which for this year's iteration, they will have their first borderless capital culture, which is, which is the Venetia frugally, Julia region, Julia region. Also known as the Julian March, but specifically the border of Italy and Slovenia, which is divided by two cities. Well, one city that has been divided into two called Gorizia and home base will be there on the, on the, on the Italian side, but I will be working mostly in the Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia. And the idea is that post World War II, the AMG, the Allied Military Government, which was France, Britain, US, they created a demarcation line between Italy and Yugoslavia called the Morgan line. And this line stretched from the top of Slovenia, only down to Croatia.
Um, and basically there was a zone A and a zone B that was changed multiple times from then until maybe like until even well disputed at least until even the fall of Yugoslavia. And it just so happens that this route, this Morgan line is also the one of the contemporary land routes from migrants coming from the Levant and something in Africa. So, um, like, for example, when I was in, when I was in Slovenia last month, because I gave a lecture at the University of Nova, of Nova Gorizia, uh, I'm literally walking across the border, never show all my passport, all this shit.
And at the border, I'm seeing like literally migrants, like dozens of them just sitting there, you know, so, you know, like one, um, this project, I've, you know, I've always felt that to complete what I hope will be, will one day be known as my Mediterranean Sada. Going through the former Yugoslavia was going to be important. You know, going to the Balkans was going to be important for that. But to, you know, um, I think especially in the case of the Balkans, we have a better and more navigable conversation there. Um, to document that it is about Neo imperialism, Neo colonial tendencies. I mean, like the UN, the US literally bomb Belgrade. Like, like, you know what I'm saying? Like Bill Clinton was like one of the Yugoslavian worst enemies.
Rob Lee: Well, like, well, like, you know, like, all because they didn't want them to fall into the hands of the Russians, you know, the sort of West like basically helped.
Joseph Cochran II: I mean, like you told to, told to any of anyone from the Balkans, they say, we, we broke this up, but also the West played a big hand in breaking up that region and, um, in the Balkanization of that region. So, uh, this project, which, um, if it is, if it does come to fruition, um, will be, will be, will debut in, uh, in Slovenia in October with talks to bring it to the US. Um, if it happens, I think it will, it will maybe be one of the most substantial projects I've ever done.
You know, um, I mean, I'm like, I'm going to have to travel to London because there's archival data that I came to access online. You know, like there's this, it's just like, it's, yeah, it's a whole thing. I'm really excited for it. You know, um, and I hope it all works out, but yeah, those are the two things.
And I hope in between that, that actually have a vacation, you know, see, see, see some of my, uh, yeah, see some of my friends, you know, um, and, uh, put my feet up somewhere. Yeah. Ragged with shit.
Rob Lee: I love it. It's, uh, it's busy and I'm, you know, definitely will, you know, make it a point to have this episode out, like, you know, leading into some of the, uh, all come because it's going to be a busy end of the year for you.
Joseph Cochran II: Um, so, you know, and I mean, I mean shit, man, you know, like, if you, uh, you're around, there's a lot coming to exhibition, man.
Rob Lee: I think I can pull up. Your boy's got some vacation coming up. I'll be out of the country part of that. You know, that's why I've been, you know, he had dressed in like a tart. You know, I got the guns out right now, see through shirts,
Joseph Cochran II: you know, you know, he could have, he's fine, you know. But yeah, man, I mean, you know, uh, you know, we, we, we do what we must.
Rob Lee: So, um, and again, I, and to actually close out, close out again, thank you for coming back on, um, tell folks where they can check you out website, social media, all of that good stuff. And then we'll close it. Okay.
Joseph Cochran II: Um, so, uh, my Instagram is a, well, yeah, I'm not, I'm not an Instagram blog anymore. So I do, I do, you just find me by typing this in, uh, Joey, Junior, that's my Instagram. If you can't find it like that, put two underscores Joey, Junior. And it's underlined, underline Joey, Junior.
And, uh, Joseph Cochran.net. Um, I don't know if you're, if you're in New York, um, if you're in New York and not weird, I don't know if you'll be an email. I'll get fucking coffee with you. So I don't know. Like, uh, other than that, uh, uh, Joey, Junior, that's sub stack.com. Or you can find out on my Instagram. I'm, I'm, I'm working the populated, you know, uh, you know, you know, art, art people give me money, so I can hire an assistant and they can talk to me. Uh, other than that, I don't know. I don't know, man. Email and make it.
Rob Lee: That was good. Um, if there you have it folks, I want to again thank Joseph Cochran and the second for coming back onto the podcast, run that back with me and for Joseph, I'm Rob Lee, cannabis, art, culture and community in and around your neck of the woods. You just have to look for it. Yeah.
