The Truth In This Art: Stories That Matter

Rob Lee: Welcome to The Truth In His Art, your source for conversations at the intersection of arts, culture and community. These are stories that matter and I am your host, Rob Lee. Today I am delighted to welcome back onto the podcast a returning guest who was a part of my really big year in 2022 and a part of that year long series in 2022 where I went up to Philadelphia and did interviews on site. My guest is a visual artist from the north and uptown regions of Philadelphia, PA.

He's known for his urban art style of painting which blends a fine art sensibility and a street art aesthetic. So please welcome back to the program, SK Sean Cole, Sean Kenzie. Welcome back to the podcast.

sean sk kinsey: Thank you so much for having me, Rob. I appreciate it, man.

Rob Lee: So we're here, we're in Philadelphia. This is the on location sort of situation. And you know, as we were talking a little bit before we got properly caffeinated.

sean sk kinsey: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Much easier right now. You got like oatmeal or something, no dairy. Yeah, oatmeal, oatmeal thing, I have it going on. Ah, come on. You're getting the healthy side.

Rob Lee: No sugar, you know. Yeah, I boiled the sugar, I boiled the sugar. Every now and again, if I give me one pun, not like

Speaker 3: seven years of the coconut syrup, you know. But before we get into sort of the deeper conversation and I'm going to dissect your coffee order a little bit later, could you reintroduce yourself for the audience? I mean, this has been what, two? Almost three years since we last talked? Yeah. So give the folks a rundown of who you are. SK Sean Cole, Sean Kenzie, please.

sean sk kinsey: Oh yeah, Sean Kenzie, visual artist, creative, born and raised in Philadelphia. Jeff White doing artwork, man. You know, if I'm doing great things, anything creative. So yeah, I'm here.

Rob Lee: So thank you for that. And you know, I think when we were kind of like figuring out like what we were going to do, how we were going to approach this conversation, you know, obviously I was going through and I like to send over my questions beforehand. You have a question. And so I'm curious, but I'm familiar, right? So like, I see the connection Baltimore-Filling, I'm from Baltimore, here, filming. Could you describe what it means to be from North-Filling? And like how that shows up in your work? Because that was something I read. I was like, what's North-Filling? I'm from Baltimore. I don't know what that means outside of Baltimore. So I would say this, first and

sean sk kinsey: foremost, shout out to North-Filling and shout out to Uptown-Filling as well. It was a privilege that I was pretty much raised in and like learned, I learned from, you know what I'm saying? I would say the importance of being from those areas to me are the fact that that's where my family's from. Yeah. And just, you know, having that upbringing with them, like they're pretty people, for food collar people, you know what I'm saying? They're about family, they're about tradition, and they're about love as well.

Yeah. Obviously, you know, I raised my love by being affectionate, you know, being happy at the hardest moments, just being together. And I think my artwork touches a lot of bases on that because as you can see, I put a lot of like hearts and peace signs and my artwork, things of that nature. And it just, you know, just gravitate to me because, like I said, you know, being from Philly, we have that judgment on us already of people thinking, you know, we're all like, to shady people. Yeah. So I try to incorporate different possibilities to my art and, you know, but just to show people that, you know, we all aren't the same.

Rob Lee: And that's, it's interesting. And I have a question that kind of extends on that, which is a nice sort of segue into it. But it's funny because it's duplicative at the same time. You know, just like, like Baltimore, we have the whole Charm City thing, but we only talk about it being dangerous. Absolutely. The city of Brotherly Love. Love is a part of that, but it's like, it's just gritty there.

sean sk kinsey: Yeah. You know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's like, which one is it? Or is it both? And that's the thing that's really curious to me. I would say it's both. But let's be honest, you know, it's crime everywhere. It's what cities have. It's crime everywhere you go, right? But I think the East Coast, we sort of like rag on our, you know, our families more.

Rob Lee: It's a credibility thing.

Speaker 3: And do you remember this song? They had a sample. I think it was a Jay-Z sample. I'm going to go harder than Baltimore. And it's just like, why is that the metric for the only sort of export where we're talking about these places?

And I think the demographics in Baltimore as far as the racial breakdown is very similar to here. And it's sort of like, so not any of the, I hate to word, any of the vibrancy or any of the creativity or any of those things. It's sort of this, yeah, we're keeping it real or whatever the equivalent now. We're keeping it real goes wrong.

sean sk kinsey: I was waiting to say that. You know what I mean? Like, I don't want to point any fingers. I don't know much, but let's say, I mean, keep it a buck. You know, that comes from just certain communities and certain things we, like glorify, that we don't have to. And especially being a white man and, you know, Philadelphia and a big city, you know, it's sad to say, we're all kind of like stereotypes.

You know what I mean? Especially got to look like me. I had tattoos, I had an image. I'm tall. You take it with that nature. But not knowing when you get to know me, I'm a very nice guy. I carry myself well, I'm an artist. You know what I'm saying? Who are you? It's a bad nature. So I think we tend to glorify the wrong things too much. You know what I'm saying?

Rob Lee: So this, I don't want to hold it up because we're right there actually. You know, so to reset it, love, peace, smiling is, you know, iconography and things that show up in your work. And you touch on it a bit and sort of, you know, you're a black man. I'm a black man of a certain age. Right.

Mid-80s. Have a reputation. We have this reputation.

I remember through the 90s. You boy, I didn't smile in any pictures. It was like, nah.

Right, nah. And it was just like, it was a thing. And it became like something that was considered cool. And I think it's aesthetical to what you might be feeling. You shouldn't be on, as my mom would say, you shouldn't be on picture day breaking your love down. But you're here. You're in a good fit.

You should be happy, excited. So share with me like why really elevating these ideas as a black man, add these ideas and these things around love, peace and sort of like happiness. Why they are important for you to like sort of elevate. And I think you're touching on that now. It's sort of countering that image. It's very important to me because I'll say this.

sean sk kinsey: I wasn't always the happiest person, you know, like growing up. People come think of my childhood, you know, like childhood traumas and even becoming a young man. I wasn't always the happiest. Facing a lot of mental illnesses, thinking about nature to the point where I had to go to therapy, you know, trying new ways to find outlets, you know what I'm saying? And just realizing that there's more in life than just stereotypical things that we tend to worry about that we can't control. But realizing that there's an outcome, you know what I'm saying? There's a positive outcome. So going to therapy and like being more open with my family, shooting my wife, you know, she's a huge help in my journey, I've got better myself, you know what I'm saying? Just realizing that, you know, there isn't always a role block. And you know, there is some light at the end of that tunnel, you know what I'm saying? And it's one thing my grandmom, she always taught me growing up.

My mother as well. But they always told me just because we're from somewhere, they don't mean we have to act like it. And that would always, that always stuck to me because you just said, you know, we have this whole whole thing where we glorify the wrong things and, you know, come to these big cities.

And that has always stuck to me. So I just try my best to be different. And who was my artwork? I just try my best to stand out no matter how I can. And the way I do it is it's just pretty much not like, so I see a lot of artists, they create art, it's always very subjective, you know what I'm saying?

It has like a deep meaning to it, or like something dark, you know, kind of demonic or like, just depressing almost, you know what I'm saying? So I try to bring more light. My tomorrow with like vibrant colors that I use, you know, some positivity messages in there.

It smiles the heart, you know, like the peacocks, everything in one. So that's the most important part to me. You know, just to realize that my mental health matters. And I can't, you know, carry that weight, you know, from past traumas, or into this new life of mine, you know what I'm saying? That's

Rob Lee: the thing that, and thank you for making that point. You know, I've done therapy three times. Actually wrapping up some stuff now and it's sort of that check-in. It's just like, what do you need? And mind comes from what I'm exploring in that, what I have explored is sort of this desire to be a people pleaser, being overly into sending the representatives, sending what I think people want from me. And through doing this, doing these interviews, doing these conversations, because I've got a fair amount of time doing it, I find that I am at my most comfortable when I'm just being with me and I'm not trying to be this performer. This is a production, I'm a performer. And I find that when I play with that and as closer to who I am as an individual, I don't feel like I'm sacrificing something. Because ultimately that comes back on the back end, I just feel like, man, I was presenting this and they didn't like me. And I gave them something that they couldn't identify, but once I got to doing something that felt real, and being able to consistently do it at a minimum, I'm pleasing myself.

But that's the most important thing. And I think going back to one of the things we both were talking on is sort of this kind of glorifying certain things. I see it all the time. It's like I was going to cut you off for your sake. I was like, oh, it's not going to really pop the algorithm.

sean sk kinsey: It's like this, if you don't post anything negative or something that's trendy or rage bait, you don't get any clicks. You know what I mean? I've been told multiple times.

Rob Lee: When I do something that shows this, I'm a connector, right? So I'll show business and art connecting and then it has a community element. I've heard from several publications locally. We'll see a story here. But it's something that's positive and showing these interconnections. And it's just like, well, if I wanted to troll it, right?

Just add some dark stuff. I trolled it sometimes. As you should. I'll limit it. I'll do it. You've got to see what the line is. Right. I was joking because I'm coming up on 900 interviews at this point, right? Wow.

sean sk kinsey: In six years. And thank you. I appreciate that.

Rob Lee: And if I get to that number, right, there's a lot of things that I've seen, a lot of things I've observed, whether first hand or second hand, and I joke on occasion of like, I want to do the Patreon exclusive images, right? Right, right.

Truth and the truth is, I don't have to dark. That would work. Yeah, yeah. And so moving into this, right, when we first chatted, it was back in late 2022. So yeah, coming up in three years. So revisiting and following up on folks in part, it's continuing conversations or it's expanding on conversations. And I'm confronted with this idea of being more aware of the passage of time.

Speaker 3: Wow, that was that long ago? Wow. This is all that's going on. So over the last few years, how do you perhaps refine your vision? Like you have sort of, this is the foundation of what you're doing and what's important to you. But how have you refined it? How have you added it to,

Rob Lee: you know, SK 2025 versus SK 2022?

sean sk kinsey: SK 2022. Just got married. And I also will be coming to father. So I would say that was the biggest, honestly, it's not the biggest part of my motivation I've ever had in my life. So, you know, fatherhood was, it's everything to me. And I would say that really helped me, you know, give that push of life. All right, you're not only taking care of yourself, but you're taking care of your family as well.

And me being the best, you know, artist, man, you know, father, husband, I can be, you know, to get my son something to look at, to look up to. So that's what I would say was the biggest, like, difference between me, then and me now.

Rob Lee: So you're considering a larger sort of meaning, family, legacy and so on, in these three years. And I would imagine that that drives some decision making you're making as it comes to being an artist. Sure does.

You know, maybe certain sources like really double down on the positive. Yes, yes. And I find that in conversations that I have, especially with like black dads, and like, you know, like, oh, I got like, I got a little kid, what have you. And technically, I've run the gamut.

This is really weird. I don't have any kids, but I have a step-grandson now. And like, I got to teach him my ways. Absolutely. And literally his birthday was two days after I turned 40. Awesome. So he was born two days after I was like, all right, everything. I can teach you everything I know.

It was not a lie. And I was like, I want to be the cool uncle. Because I live in the cool uncle lane, right? I've earned nicknames from the kid's parents.

It's all rap names. It's like your G-Unit. It's like, it's your unit because you're big, but then also it's like, it's kind of the grand. And I gave the kid his nickname. I call him Master P. Master P. Because his first name he gives her the P. Gotcha. And I was like, look, when I come over to Sean Price Necklace, don't be weird. Don't be weird. Your kid's going to be hip hop. All right.

Hip hop all the way out. But it's sort of that. And I hear from folks and they talk about sort of, it's a slowing down. It's a slowing down and it's a more wide consideration when, whatever they're doing, when they're responsible for someone else. They're responsible for other people's family dynamic or even kids.

sean sk kinsey: And also it's very important because now, you know, we live in an era where everything is especially like the black community, all urban communities, I would say. We live in a time where now there's certain things, like being a whole creative isn't like from the point, you know what I'm saying? It's all about get a day job. Yeah.

Get a day job or if you're not, you know, being an artist, you know, you're being a rapper or a half lead. Yeah, you know what I'm saying? You know, certain things that's not acceptable when it comes to the sort of thing. So me, just teaching my son that look, you can be anything you want to be and even as a black man, you know, you can be an artist as well. Yeah. And actually make a living off of it. Yeah. So that's very important to me just to show him what those steps, you know, how it's done now. There are no barriers. You know, and you know, I,

Rob Lee: this is a bit but also it connects. You know, I got the grandson piece. I've done teaching for the last two years, you know, sort of, we've talked, you know, about two years. Yeah. Just as an additional thing. And I said the goofy thing, I look at myself and like, ugh, like, man, my kid, you know, I don't know.

sean sk kinsey: But it's sort of this. And even in doing this, I have like

Rob Lee: younger, especially younger artists on, like more emerging and so on. I'm like, how can I help them get this out there and show themselves in their best way there's a protective nature in there and sort of not trying to chime in and tell them how to do what their doors will lie. But sort of don't limit yourself as to always the piece that I draw.

It's like, think about things as broadly as possible. Like in January, rather, maybe 17 years I've been a podcaster. 17, 17 years. Wow.

And I'll be 41. So that's the truth of the year. So that's a big chunk of one place. And for something that now we're getting to a stage of, oh, this is a thing to do.

But I've already seen this shift of something completely different. It just influences and making money and celebrity. But it's not journalism.

It's not storytelling. So I've seen sort of bad trajectory over that time. But I say this to go along with what you're touching on. Oh, why do you do that? I remember people used to say, would you just record the basement at your mom's house? It was a pejorative thing in the same vein as being an artist.

So yeah, just being able to open it up. So when I taught at an arts high school, right, I taught for a full year there. And this was seniors. I usually had like adults. I had seniors, high school seniors. They're like, you're old.

sean sk kinsey: I'm not old, bro. You look like my dad. I was like, you know what I mean? Exactly.

Rob Lee: But the students in there, they were film students and they were theater students. So I was trying to show their connections. It's like, well, film is just storytelling. It's just on a different medium. And I was like, there's a performance element to, but it's still a production. So both of those things apply for you theater folks. So it's like, see the alignment and see that this can be that.

And it can be something in the much broader. And I think it's going to help you with your storyteller. And I think once I started framing it in a way almost from another film style, they kind of got it. They're like, oh, I see what you're saying now. You can see the little red ball go up. Yeah. And once you mentioned you could possibly make money from that, I was like, learn how to edit right there.

sean sk kinsey: Everyone needs an editor. Everyone. You know what I mean? Even if you're

Rob Lee: editing how you go about things, this season, the goal, so the year that you were on, you were born at 322 interviews that year. Wow. Yes. That's how I get to that number.

Whereas this year, you're going to be one of 75 interviews. I've been actively bringing it down in a sense editing. And bringing it almost having a governor. I want to do this, but it's like, this might make more sense and figure out what that balance is. And going back to the mental health team, the people, please, they think, oh, what about the audience? They're going to be accustomed to me doing this. What do you want to do? What do you want to do?

sean sk kinsey: Yeah. That's the most important. What do you want to do?

Rob Lee: So I got to ask this, especially because this is the sort of return, right? Could you describe the feeling when you look at some of your earlier work, like just think of any particular piece that comes up that has a lot of significance. This was a really challenging time, but this was a really cool time. And what that piece, like when you think of it, what is it like, what feelings does it bring out for you?

sean sk kinsey: Honestly, this may sound crazy, but looking at my work then, and looking at my work now, oh man. This is a different dude now. I just feel like it was not shitty, but you can tell, and you can see the growth, you know what I mean? And just think of my work then. Yeah, I kind of feel like I was reading that story telling, and expressing how I felt in certain paintings. But now I feel like this comes all more natural, and I'm not so much like forcing to have a title, or if I had that story, it just flows, you know what I'm saying?

But they all just flows now. So I would say I do have a favorite piece of art. Well, I have several favorite pieces. Like picking your children a little bit.

Yeah, picking your children almost. But I don't know, it's kind of tough because I quite go all my work. But I do have a few favorite pieces to have shown my growth, and just helped me along this way to, like, how can I say it? To, I would say, make my work more mature.

Rob Lee: Yeah, there are, I've been touching on this a lot recently, doing things that are maybe hard, maybe challenging, to help you get past a certain stage. So I guess doing this deep and with a challenge to get the number down, and to kind of cut down one's creativity and make some sort of confession to what the goal was. Previous years, I think building up that capacity of doing 300 plus, when I do nothing half that the following year, I'm like, oh, this is light work. But then how do you make it feel like a challenge? Because you're doing less, you're doing less reps. You're doing less reps, you're doing less reps. So how do you keep the intensity up?

You got less heavier. You got to do something that's a bit harder. So it may be going back through, and it's like, man, I did that one interview. I'll never have to touch it again. And it's like, you're going to do another one. Hopefully it's as good as the first. It's like, did you learn anything new? Did you ask them something? Where are they at? And I'm like, that is a challenge.

sean sk kinsey: But it's face to face with conversations. Was it more genuine? I got you. Well, did you ask the same questions?

Rob Lee: I got a lot of them. All right. I added that out. Which is natural. Yeah. And there are some folks that I won't reveal. There are some folks that I had back home, and I was like, I was not good on that first one.

And I can toe leg growth. So what you're describing is just like, I love all of them. I remember almost all of my interviews. All the guests.

But it is one of those things where it's like, all right. How are you making this one that's similar? How, where's the growth at?

And when I'm listing it self, right now it's growth. There are, you know how you have to check Angeloid on? There's a bunch of different check Angeloid things that are happening. They're going to the point of what's the conversation. And as I was sharing earlier, when I do go to the public ones, it's just like, yeah, less control over that. It's just someone can literally walk by and just like rip it.

Speaker 3: And you're like, what are you, like on the light budget? I was like, what are we doing? But you, you roll with it. And I think that's a skill in itself. And that comes also, and I'd be probably to the next question.

You might like this. So one of the interviews I did between then and now, I was on a boat. I was on a small boat. Wow. During an interview in the end of Harvard, right?

Rob Lee: It was water coming in this boat. You did not stop movement. I didn't miss a beat. I stayed with it. And learning the guest I was interviewing, do name a dozen Wilkins, he has like a rotator cuff surgery.

So he's always in the plane. Now that's, I'm telling you, Brooke, you swim like that? He's like, nah.

Yeah, none of those. And I was like, I can't swim either. And the person that was filming, he's like, I also can't swim. I say, oh, so this is sort of how I can't swim. We all drown. But the person that was driving our boat, she was just like, I was enthralled the whole time I listened to this lost podcast. I was like, I thought we were going to drown. So again, if that thing goes, I was able to do that.

And it's not being able to swim. It's like, is there a black box here? Like this is going to be the last Will and Testament. I hope this is an episode. You got all your worst episodes. Yeah, for sure. So it's like the opposite of going out on top. Yeah, going out bottom.

sean sk kinsey: I got blown up in my last game.

Rob Lee: So I learned also in doing these interviews, had an interview with Jeffrey Kent about Baltimore based artists. And I'd asked him about this notion of these separate part life. And he's like, it's the same thing. And I find that that comes more and more true than what I do this. This is my art. I don't want people to be in it.

Maybe it's controversial. This is my art. I spend enough time. I can go through the same sort of challenges that are there in the same time. So since you're unable to really separate those, how does a day in a life, What is the day in life look like for you? How is it going? What is the typical day in life look like for you?

sean sk kinsey: I have to be honest with you. I have to be honest with you. I have to be honest with you. I have to be honest with you. I feel like sometimes I have to detach myself from being a show and community artist that is where I sit in here with my family. I am thinking about getting this art was done, getting that done, doing this podcast, getting that interview, getting those emails out. I have to learn to relax. I am not carried that way into the family moment of how you are personal life. Even though it is personal, it is a monocle day. You have to separate a family for business. You have to be at a prior task.

Rob Lee: I like to look at it in this way. I don't turn off the podcast or the artist button. I am going to put that in its cabin. I am going to peek in and see what I have to attend to. I am still doing the thing that I need to be in the presence. I hate the pop psychology terminology.

sean sk kinsey: Being there for the things that need it. You put the effort in. You make the work. It is a struggle. It could be a lonely journey as a creative person or as an artist or as a podcast. You have this moment, especially as we are getting to the tour of the year.

The holidays and people are just together. Sometimes people have that push. You make it as many sales as possible. You have that concentrated and condensed family time that you want to give it its due. Being able to give yourself grace.

Rob Lee: Being able to prioritize. I have two interviews next week. The burnout thing that you touched on. The end of that 322. I did a creative mornings talk. It was the last talk of the year. The theme was truth.

I have seen a video for it. I had a bunch of questions. People just asked me questions. I was like, I love you.

I am happy to do it. One of the things that came out was not a question. More of an observation but framed as a question. When are you going to take a break? I am working on it. You need to take a break. You are going to burn yourself out. I am like, no. You are going to burn yourself out. One thing that I have been playing with now. Grind culture.

Speaker 3: Grind culture will put you into the ground. Being able to have those periods. Now I am trying to record more than twice a week. Where is 2022?

Rob Lee: I did 18 in a week sometimes. Now it is a point where I am like, can all of those 18 be good? Who knows. The aspiration is for them to be good and put the same effort and energy into them.

I put in a couple hours of research for these questions. And sometimes it is traveling. It is the whole thing that goes into it. And I don't want to take away from the people that matter. So when it comes to the weekends and those times, I am like, I will do that on the weekends.

sean sk kinsey: Why is grind culture so glorified? And how can you...

Rob Lee: Who made that up? I think in part, it is unpopular, but I think it is worth exploring. We are good workers, we are very high productive, high accomplishing, but there is already... And I know Philly has it, Baltimore has it. The underdog thing.

If you have the underdog thing, you want to prove that you are really good. And we are used from the social. We are used in batteries to keep the thing going. Because you have my number, I have your number. There are other folks that are like, you didn't hit me up on Instagram. You could be personal.

Because I try to avoid the ground because the grind is so heavy. And I think it leads to you seeing other people doing their stuff and then that comparison, the people you really think comes in. And it shifts like, do stuff in real life. Be around your people in real life.

sean sk kinsey: Real time. That's why I'm a prior with those things.

Rob Lee: That's why I'm so fortunate that we are able to tap back in. Because that's another thing, right? Where we did the interview a couple years back. We were in person. And it was just like, yeah, I'll hit you up on the IG or what have you and we'll do a video. And it's like, yeah, that's cool.

But sort of the, especially as I was saying earlier, it was very a select number of people. So it's just like, no, give it that duty. Give it that duty.

So talking a bit about being so taught. And the work being intended for a gallery setting and having sort of that, the street art aesthetic and sensibility. How do you feel about the description and categorization of your work? And the reason I ask this, did you see a mark on fiction?

No. So one of the things that comes up in American fiction, the lead, the protagonist in the story, he's a writer, right? And it's like, your work is categorized as black writing. He's like, but it's not bad at all. He's iron black. The work is not. So that's why I'm coming out with this question. I got you.

sean sk kinsey: Honestly, I do not like the fact that my work is described as certain categories. So I feel like there needs to be art. So I feel like art shouldn't really have certain titles. I do consider my artwork to be quote unquote, urban art. But it's visible to be, as a gallery setting, because of the fact that it's a little good work. It deserves to be in the gallery of monks concerned. Conserved to people and things of that nature. And not only just somewhere on a brick wall or a small pop-up shop.

Rob Lee: To use the terminology of some of my friends, it gives, when that categorization happened, it gives what they used to do with hip hop music, with quote unquote black music. Oh, that's race music. There's a big signature really name.

sean sk kinsey: You try to horizon it. Yeah, yeah. I hate the whole urban art scene. Why is it urban? Because it's feeding in it.

Rob Lee: And I see people who are not of that, who will kind of ape that style. And then there are some folks like, this is quote unquote not good work or not fun art or whatever the thing is.

It makes it rarefied. Where I've had people because I do this, and they're like, oh, you must be an art critic. I am not. Or I've had people come to me asking for, what should I like? I'm like, what I know. It's like, you like what you like.

sean sk kinsey: Do you feel something from it? Like what you like.

Rob Lee: But it is this thing where you have people chiming in and a fixing terminology to something, to bucket it, to package it, and to potentially sell it. And I don't think that's how that works. So I've had people try to categorize this with it, because let's say someone comes to wear the podcast. They say, oh yeah, you interview black artists. I interview a lot of different people. And it turns into, why are you interviewing these types of artists without this black artist podcast? I was like, well, it's my podcast.

I interview whoever I want. And the pen is so important to me. And I think the categorization of the short cut and the short hand, is like, no, it doesn't need to be categorized. I talk with people more interesting than me. That's how I categorize. And it's never, I had an artist on visual arts, painter.

A couple months ago. And she's Russian. And we talked a bit about her work, but we kind of talked about the story that went into it, really revealing the humanity of her person.

And she was like, thank you for actually making me feel like a person. It's usually, it's just, I got this question about, you painted this, why? And there's no depth there. And it's kind of the same thing where, hey, so everything is framed still. Sean is a black artist. So Sean is an artist from Philadelphia. It's going with the day. And it's just like, you're missing the mark.

sean sk kinsey: You're definitely missing the mark there.

Rob Lee: And if you were to, you think of sort of the things that you like, like as an artist, but also as a person consuming art and interacting with art. What is the, the themes or the messages that you enjoy? Like if it's similar to what you're making, or is it more like, I appreciate the skill that went into this getting recognized, getting that sort of vibe. What is it about the art that you consume that you really like? Across multiple spectrums. Visual, film, music, the whole scope. What is it that you like about the art that you consume? As a person appreciating art.

sean sk kinsey: I like how, you know, in general, I'll catch my attention first and foremost. Anything that I'm into, I'm into fashion, hedging. I can tell. I love the, I love the whole passion and free.

And she don't think of that nature. I love, you know, the whole art, film direction. Everything that's related to something being created. Art with, you know, architecture, whatever. I feel like, you know, you can learn from anything, you know, from all realms. And that's what I like about, you know, about art within itself.

Because if you consume it, it will eventually, you know, just give you desperation to be your own creative, you know what I'm saying? Like, for example, I can always draw. I could always, you know, sketch and things like that. But I didn't have that drive to become an actual visual artist until one particular moment, my wife and I, with my girlfriend, at that time, we went to a paint, paint with a twist.

Okay. And we were painting the Eiffel Tower, like a whole group. And so the instructor, she was like, wow, yours stands out the most. And that same weekend, I was like, I think I'm going to start, you know, buying some art products, paint canvases, and I just thought it paining.

Yeah. Who knew that 19 years later, I will be having art shows and, you know, having a website, having art collectors, being in art galleries, traveling, things of that nature, and all from one simple night. So I would say that any form of art can consume you into being something that you never knew it can be.

Rob Lee: I have a, that's a good example there. I'm a taste guy. I've been described as a culture guy, right? And I remember, I'll talk about myself in these weird things, and then somehow it's like, yeah, I was a five, man. It's like, you don't want it early.

Yeah, because I know what I'm doing. And I remember going to something really absurd. We're both finishing up coffee. And I remember going to this sort of coffee and chocolate tasting, which was really dope. And the person that was bringing in the cacao beans and the chocolate, he's like, this is my suitcase. He's like, I almost didn't get to the country with this.

It was wild. Because it's, you bring in it first coffee. So me and my partner, she and I were there. We were talking, and the guy that's the cacao expert, he ignores everyone else. He's like, what do you guys think? It's obviously what you know.

Just off the strength. It's like, we're really boys. We're trying to, you know, save the essence of really being into the thing. And he's like, yeah, they're fine. They get it.

You too. What do you two think? And it's just sort of someone recognizing that, you know, you have perspectives. And as I was describing, I was like, this, this, and this is in here. He's like, yes, yes, more.

Tell me more. He gets to do it. Having that degree of acknowledgement from someone, the game recognizing game of it all. And, you know, sort of with your example, you were describing it, like, you painted this piece. It's like, I want to have a background in this area. And then telling him, it's like, yours pops. Exactly. And it took something about it. Like, I'd be right.

sean sk kinsey: And around that time, I actually sold my first piece for 125 albums. Yeah. Yeah. And I was like, wow. Okay. Maybe I can be something. You know what I mean? He's not saying that the money drove me. Yeah. But just to roll out, like, okay, this is something that I could have been doing all along. But it's so frowned upon when we come home.

Rob Lee: We are in a bond where we're not even allowed to talk about money, for instance. Well, thanks to that, that's frowned upon. Exactly. A conjunction with the grind culture thing. Yeah. Very tricky. So I do have this for you.

This is a good one, especially based on what we just talked about. Yes. How do you distinguish good art from great art? Whether it be, you know, just generally speaking. You know, they have to be your own. You know, we have our own feelings about all work. But, like, what's the barometer there for you?

sean sk kinsey: Good art and great art. Good art is...

Rob Lee: You see what I did there? I didn't say good art from that. You know what?

sean sk kinsey: I'm going to say good art is art that hasn't been discovered yet by the right people. Yeah. And great art is artwork that has been discovered by the right people. You know what I mean? I can't really call someone's art bad because, like you just said, there's a billion people on Earth. What one person doesn't like, the next hundred people will. So, I can't really... I personally can't distinguish good art from great art.

Rob Lee: And I think with that, it's a good distinction there too. Because it's like, you can have something that's done technically sound. Wow, that's done really well. But then you look at it like, sometimes it's like portrait art. It's just like, that's done really, really well. But I noticed some folks' work has been described as a little soulless. And it's just like, this is done really good. Voto realistic, it's great. But then there's no depth or no soul to it. Let's be honest.

sean sk kinsey: I'm sure you've all seen some artwork in a major gallery that sucks.

Rob Lee: Yeah, I think you had that take up like, ah, it's so bad art. Okay, this one sucks though.

sean sk kinsey: That's what sucks. But that's your opinion. Yeah. Not everyone else is, you know what I mean? So, you just have to realize that art is, again, subjective. And how we personally feel. So I try not to give this good or bad, you know, if I level up. Sort of like competitiveness, you know what I'm saying? Yeah.

Rob Lee: There's the thing that happens. I know that with the scarcity that's created, then I don't know if that's good. It's like, now you're just a take lord. You're just having a take. And, you know, there is this notion of, I think there's a value in critique. Where you have sort of qualified critique that you touch on all the stuff that's discovered.

You have sort of the big critics talking about that. Because it's discovered and right in front of them. And then you have maybe something that's not discovered yet, but it's developing and it's bubbling. But amateur critique might be interest, like this up ahead. This is why. And it's worthwhile to hear that sometimes. This is like, for example,

sean sk kinsey: they've never seen that an artist who painted banana on the wall. And he made like millions of dollars. Yeah, who like Banksy, right? It wasn't Banksy. It was someone else.

But the person made millions of dollars with taping a banana too. Yeah, performance art. What are we doing? I mean, what are we doing here? You know what I mean? But that again, with a moment where, what can we call bad art? You know, what's good art?

Rob Lee: There are a few museums that play with this idea of what this is a museum of bad art. I think like, okay, that's kind of a cool idea. And I think it, and what I try to do in this podcast, what I hope I accomplish is broadening what that aperture looks like. Whose art matters, what is art period? Because we have a very, and this is where that rarefied thing I was saying comes in.

We have a very specific idea of whose work matters, what styles matter, and so on. There are some pockets who don't consider performance art. And notice that I've called it what it is. Performance art. That's not art though. Right, alright.

So culinary art, not art. But it's literally, in the thing. It's specific. And it's not maybe one definition around it, and maybe there's an emphasis on visual art. And I find that market right now is a little crazy.

Thank you. And folks are not able to sell, and so it's the kind of copying maybe what sells are being highly influenced and what sells. And that kind of plays to this idea of what's the conversations around art. Alright. So, let's see. I've got one more real question. I've got like three rapid fire questions for you. Gotcha. So the last real question. In this sort of like last three years or so, what would you say has been the biggest, almost crucial lesson you've learned?

sean sk kinsey: The most crucial lesson I've learned was not to be inconsistent. Consistency really matters. You have to make sure that you're, you know, again, back in that grind culture. It's not always grinding, but making sure whatever you do, it's ongoing, you know what I mean? Making sure that you prioritize your work. Not so much how much you put out, but what you put out, that's good.

Speaker 3: You know what I mean? So you can put out non-style work, but it does not, quality work, it doesn't matter.

Rob Lee: You don't want to say I'm jacked in the middle of it? Invite us, you're in a lot of stuff. Right. Some of it is good, some of it may not be as good. It's sort of, it's not about what you're putting out, it's about what you're putting into, what you're putting out.

sean sk kinsey: Yeah, so being consistent and not getting caught up in the whole thing of where it's though, you know, I have to keep putting out work now, about every single day. And I can admit, I do fall short in type promoting myself, you know.

Don't we all? The whole social media thing of, you know, not posting how we should, with this algorithm and how we have to create content every single day to get views and blah, blah, blah. Yeah. I just made sure, you know, to not only take my time, well, I always have my time as well.

Like, for example, instead of like, trying to do three paintings a day, I try to finish at least, like, two a week. Because I feel, again, I'm a father. Yeah. You know, I'm a family man. And I'm a human being. For one.

Not a robot. So you have to prioritize that time and just make sure that you're consistent with the right things. So, over these years, I would say consistency. And just making sure I put in, you know, put out the quality work, kind of the work that's just,

Rob Lee: I don't think it's something out there. Yeah. Yeah. So, that makes sense. It's that conversation around, like, are you putting together content or are you actually putting out work? Putting out work. Exactly. And the assembly line nature of it. I was like, well, like, you know, that's just not good on that garment.

Speaker 3: You didn't finish that. Exactly. All right.

Rob Lee: I got three questions I want to run by you. Don't overthink these. These are quick answers. There's the first one. From this rapid fire portion. Returning guests remind me that this podcast and good podcast in the whole is about relationships. Some folks are interesting, but they're not good hang. That's like, can't wait till this is over. And there are others that's like, this is a good conversation. Don't know if this is a podcast.

It might be a little spicy. So, what are two to three traits that you value in a relationship that are closest to you? Not necessarily family per se, but like people who are very close to you. What do you value from them?

sean sk kinsey: The loyalty, the respect and the love.

sean sk kinsey: Love, I would say. I feel like respect is very important to me because it goes both ways. Yep. You know, once again, we're all human beings and we have to give each other grace. You know, everyone may not be on the same page as you or, you know, just not having a good day. As you, every single day. You know what I'm saying? So, we have to be mindful that we have to respect each other's time and, you know, just loving all those people unconditionally. So, good. Yeah.

Rob Lee: If you could name this chapter of your life, what would be the name of the chapter?

sean sk kinsey: Leveling up. Okay. The level up. I like it. Yeah, see the level up. Alright, here's the last one.

Rob Lee: I've been out here watching, putting on, you know, getting the gas,

sean sk kinsey: you know, putting on some math or whatever. Yeah, you got this.

Rob Lee: So, you've been doing this training regiment. What have you learned from the regiment that you can apply to being an artist?

sean sk kinsey: Being consistent. Once again, putting the work in. But I noticed when I do miss the gym, miss my gym days, I feel a little bit, you know, not as much strong

Rob Lee: and big, you know what I'm saying? Do you go early or do you go late in the day? Whenever. I go super early. I go super early, right? Yeah. Because I was like, I need to bank some early wins because I know the day is going to beat me down. Mm-hmm. I got you. So, now that's a good point though. Yeah, good point.

sean sk kinsey: Consistency, consistency, consistency, man. You have to push yourself. Not stop. Because if you don't, you fall short. You fall back. And, you know, we're all about moving forward over there.

Rob Lee: So, that's the mindset. It's the same thing you touched on earlier, applies. Like, you can't do the overly grind yourself. Oh, man, my shoulder.

sean sk kinsey: Just want to bring yourself out, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's going to be consistent and timely, timely fashion.

Rob Lee: There you have it, folks. I want to again thank Sean Kinsey for making the time and coming back onto the podcast and catching up in the next chapter of his art story. And for Sean Kinsey, I am Rob Lee saying that there's art, culture, and community in and around your neck of the woods. You just have to look for it. You