The Truth In This Art: Stories That Matter

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Rob Lee: Welcome to the Truth In As Art, your source for conversations connecting arts, culture, and community. These are stories that matter and I am your host Rob Lee. Thank you so much for joining me. Today, I am thrilled to welcome my next guest, an award-winning artist and creative director at Fantagraphics, as well as a 2023-2024 Princeton Hotter Fellow. I first encountered her and her work at the 2025 Small Press Expo, where her debut full-length graphic memoir Precious Rubbish won an Ignats Award for Outstanding Graphic Novel. So please welcome to the program, Kayla E. Welcome to the podcast.

Kayla E.: Hi, thank you so much for having me. I'm very happy to be here.

Rob Lee: Yes, I am looking forward to. I always have a degree of nerves as I was sharing when we got in the little pre-show chatter-chatter of, like, hey, I've seen you on stage doing your thing, being emotionally and creatively stripped bare.

Now it's like, come onto my podcast. I hope you can keep it on, Rob. I hope you can keep it up. So I'm really looking forward and excited for this conversation.

Kayla E.: Oh, this is my favorite thing to do. So I'm very grateful that you wanted to talk to me. It always kind of blows my mind just to, like, know that people have read the book or they know it exists. And it's just pretty surreal because I just live a very quiet life out here in North Carolina and like a little town in my little house that I never be. So, you know, hearing from you that you wanted to talk to me for your podcast was very exciting.

Rob Lee: Yes, and, you know, just, I think, you know, as we open it up and I just appreciate you making the time to come on. Because you're not seeing some interviews. I was doing the YouTube search. I was like, there are a lot of interviews out here. Don't underestimate, you know.

Kayla E.: Well, I'm a chatterbox. What can I say?

Rob Lee: Okay, I like that. I like that. I call myself, I don't know if you'll get the reference, but I call myself Yapa Donna sometimes, like, Capodana from Wu Tang. Like, I talk too much. Oh, my goodness. Did you make that up? I did. I did. I'm not a dad, but it's a lot of dad jokes.

Kayla E.: This is very dadly. Oh, yeah.

Rob Lee: And I call myself, this is even more esoteric, Gab Calloway, like, Cab Calloway.

Speaker 3: Oh, no, I get that one. That's good. Oh, my God, I need to come up with my own.

Rob Lee: We can workshop it. We can workshop it.

Speaker 3: Okay, yes, well, yes.

Rob Lee: So before we dive into the specifics of precious rubbish, it's always hard for me to say words.

Kayla E.: Could we begin? It's hard for me to say precious rubbish, honestly. It's a mouthful.

Rob Lee: But could we begin with sort of, you know, sort of a bit of your introductory story and specifically your influences as a comic artist?

Kayla E.: Yeah, certainly. So I think that the earliest influences I have, honestly, is probably a combination of, like, newspaper comics, Archie Double Digest from the grocery store, and, like, those really crazy cartoons from the 90s, like, Renn and Sempe, like, the really nasty shit of, I think, the really funny wild stuff that, you know, I grew up with, like, Brockwood's Modern Life and stuff. But in terms of comics, like, specifically sequential art, it was definitely my exposure to reading the newspaper, which my dad always had. I don't think my mom ever read the newspaper or had the newspaper in our house.

But my dad read the newspaper, and so I would always have access, you know, every other Sunday, because I was at his house every other weekend, to, you know, read the funnies. And I loved them. I loved them.

They were so wholesome and comforting and great. A non-sequitur, I think, that one cartoon used to make me feel really edgy that I could, that I, like, read it. I didn't always understand it, but I felt like, you know, like a smart, like, intellectual kid that I read that. I don't know if you know what I mean, like, far as I do. Like, just some of them felt like, I don't know, like, you're in on some kind of a secret or something.

I don't know how to explain it, but... So I've always loved comics and had a relationship with them. But I think that the big thing for me was my exposure to Archie comics. That was kind of the game changer.

Every once in a while, my dad would get me, you know, a double digest. I preferred the setting Veronica ones, because I loved Veronica so much. So I would get those and I would, you know, I had just probably five or six throughout my entire childhood. You know, it's not like I was spoiled with them, but I treasured them and I read them over and over and over again. And, you know, there were a lot of these, like, reprints, I think, like, mid-century reprints that were put out in the 90s.

So I was reading, like, actual mid-century kids' comics and, like, being immersed in these vintage worlds, like the aesthetics of it, the environments, the fashions, everything, really, I think, influenced me pretty strongly. So that was, yeah. Oh, no, sorry, go ahead.

Rob Lee: No, I would say that's great. You're taking me back a little bit, because, you know, some of the cartoons that you mentioned, and also the comics, I was like, yeah, we're about the same age.

Kayla E.: Okay, I'm turning 36 in a couple weeks, so that's my age.

Rob Lee: I am 40. I'm older than you, actually.

Kayla E.: Okay, cool. But yeah, so four-year difference. We've probably watched the same stuff. Yeah, I think so. But, yeah, so that was sort of the earliest, you know, influences in terms of comics. And then in high school, I would get some, like, occasionally get some, like, artsy graphic novels or, like, not, I think really the most experimental thing that I read before college, I think, was Leviathan by Peter Bledbad.

I got it at a half-price book. There was a, there's like a, that's a chain in Texas and the South, in the Southeast. And there were a bunch where I lived, and I would go there all the time. And I got this random book, because it looked, it was comics, but it looked different. It looked like art. It just was strange. It was like collage, like, I didn't quite understand it. It just felt very, like, smart.

And so I got this book. It was in the clearance. All the only books I could ever get from half-price books were the half-price books that were then in clearance. So that's how poor I was. And that was where that book was. And so he's a British cartoonist, and this was Leviathan as a collection of his comic strips.

I think they were syndicated newspaper comic strips that were published overseas. So that was definitely influential for me, for my teen brain to, you know, have exposure to something that was so wild, honestly. And then in college, I wasn't making comics like actually like real sequential art until my freshman year of college, where I was in the seminar called Alternative American Comics, and it was the only time. As far as I know, the first and only time, not the only time since, comics are now taught specifically there. But at that time, I happened to be there when this comic course was being taught, and it was really unusual.

And it was my freshman spring, and I applied for it, and I got in. And that was where I had like a real introduction to literary comics or, you know, independent comics. And I read Jimmy Corrigan by Chris Ware.

It was an assignment there. And so that was my real gateway drug into making comics. I was so blown away by that book. It was extraordinary. I had an extraordinary reaction to it, like a visceral, emotional, almost spiritual response to the book. And I had never experienced anything like that before. So I went to my dorm room and I drew my first comic strip.

Rob Lee: That's amazing. I love that when you have sort of this response and you're compelled to like act. It's like, yeah, enough of this. I'm reading, I'm enjoying it. Now it's time to act now. It's time to make something.

It's time to, as they say, dive in. And, you know, that kind of moves me into this sort of next question, sort of a follow-up question, but I'll just interject a little bit. I had a experience, I think, sort of somewhat similar in that I felt moved to act. I was a big podcast listener. I used to listen to like Kevin Smith's podcast, Samad cast a lot when, you know, I was like 24. And I was like, what is this podcast thing? I was already a radio nerd and audio file, always listening to different stuff.

And I said this story a few times, but I remember I was working the job that I hated. And I literally looked at maybe a video or picture, I think because of the time was a picture of his podcast set up. And I happened to see that he had a Fast Track Pro.

So I started piecing together the different pieces of equipment that he had. And I was like, I don't care what it costs. I'm going to go across the street the best buy and buy it. And that's what I did.

Oh my God, I love that. Literally the last $500 I had on mics and a interface and didn't know how to use any of the stuff and just started tankering around. And nearly, I started, that was 2009, by the way. So, you know, here, 16 years later, almost 17 years later, I still have that same interface, that device.

Kayla E.: Beautiful. I really love that. Oh my God, I'm so glad that you like, let yourself get that stuff, you know, like, like, like you followed your instincts and you listen to them. That's extraordinary. So, like, that just doesn't, I feel like that doesn't happen. It's hard to do that. At least it's hard for me to do that, to let myself, like, get the thing that, like, feels, it feels like I need it, you know, like it feels like it would be creatively inspiring or whatever, but especially if it's expensive. The answer is almost always no, for me.

Rob Lee: I hear you. And, you know, even going through some of the stuff that I have now is joking about looking for this one little device. I will send you a picture of this device so you can get an idea of how small it is, but how integral it is for me to do this interview with you currently. And it's just really sort of interesting where in recent weeks, I've been interviewed a lot. Just folks asking me about the journalism piece, how am I doing this, and what inspires it. And I always just say, the inspiration comes out of curiosity. It's like, how does this person do this? Even, you know, reaching out to you. I was just like, I wonder if she can fit me in.

I hope she can. And just because I was curious about sort of, you know, look, those things that people will share something, but it's always, they haven't done an interview with me. I'm going to find something or find a detail.

Kayla E.: Yes, yes, yes, that's absolutely right. Yeah, I mean, I've never spoken to you before. So this conversation is already different. And there's, it's like, nothing will happen if you don't try and you don't ask. Like, at least for me, like that kind of thing, it's free, you know, so I'm going to shoot my shot. And if I think about it, like, that's, it's the only way to like, make anything happen. So I'm obsessed with the fact that, yeah, you just reached out to me and of course I want to talk to you.

Rob Lee: That's dope. And this is a segue, if you will, to this next question. Podcasting wasn't my first love creatively. You know, this is a little detail and, you know, Rob from maybe 12. I thought I was going to make comics like Jim Lee.

I thought that's what I was going to do. And so I was illustrating and, you know, middle school. And, but I also was telling stories about movies as well. And here's the kicker. This is like a gentleman liar.

I guess I'll call myself. I used to, my dad used to get DHS. I used to almost have DVDs. My dad used to get DHS's every Friday from Blockbuster. And there was one that he got that me and my brother, we just didn't watch. So on Mondays, our friends would ask us, so would you guys watch almost living vicariously through us?

Because we too were somewhat less broke than our friends. And there was a movie called Giver that had Mark Hamill in it. And it's just alien martial arts superheroes, whatever. I had never seen it. You know, and I didn't see it then, but all of my friends expected me to share a story about a movie. So I just lied based on the cover. I was like, didn't this happen? And then that happened. Oh my God. That's so funny.

Kayla E.: Oh my God. It's really cute. Did you get caught? No.

Rob Lee: Maybe for like a year. It's almost like none of that happened in the movie. That didn't happen at all. You're a liar. That's like I am.

Kayla E.: Oh my goodness. That is so funny. You can't like, have you carried that into your practice now? Do you ever do that now?

Rob Lee: In a sense, I think the skills of being able to capture and try to share a story kind of put someone on. Because that's the intent behind it, right? Yeah. I still do that with this, but also I do a movie review podcast too. I'll send you the link to it if you might enjoy it.

Oh hell yeah. So, but my first love was a different type of craft, right? So in reading over your background, I see comics, drawing, painting, ceramic, sculpture, printmaking and design. What was your first love creatively?

Kayla E.: Probably just straight up drawing, I'd say. When I was a little girl, I thought that I could be, grow up and be an artist. You know, I thought that was like a viable career. And that was my, I sort of built my whole identity around that, like starting in elementary school. I think it was like preschool actually, when I decided I wanted to grow up and be an artist. I had no idea what that meant. I never met an artist.

Speaker 3: I did it.

Kayla E.: This was something, a figment of my imagination essentially. But I really sort of built a whole sense of self around that. And ended up going to an arts magnet high school and like focused in the visual arts area there and just excelled in it. And again, like deepened my identity as an artist and who I was and what I had to offer the world was making visual stuff. And I think that I've always been like extremely interdisciplinary, like even in junior high, I was doing ceramics after school. My art teacher would let me stay behind and like do ceramics on his Potter's wheel. And I was doing collage and like trying my hand at photography and drawing and painting. And then in high school, I was taking all the classes I could. It was amazing to have access to, you know, like, the ceramics classes and there was a sculpture class where we got to do like metal work, which is crazy.

It was an amazing school. And then I got to do printmaking, which I really, really loved. And so then when I went to college, like there was, I didn't know I was going to go to college, but the fact that I did, there was no other option. But for me to major in art, it just was like, what else would I do? There isn't it?

I what's the point really? So I studied art and I was I was doing a lot of painting in college and then comics totally took me by surprise. I had no sort of thought or natural instinct to make comics until I read Jimmy Corgan and drew my first comic strip. And then from that point on, I've I've been hooked. It's not the only art form that I sort of employ, but I've never stopped making comics ever since. So I sort of added it to like my my toolbox of creativity and it's something I suspect I'll always want to do is make comics.

Rob Lee: That makes sense. It's thank you. I think it reminds me and I use certain books or what have you for for context to kind of help generate questions or generate insights. And that reminds me of this this piece I got from Austin Cleon about sort of the whole phantom limb thing. Like if you do something creatively, you may leave it for a bit or if it's something that you've done earlier and it's like, hey, I'm doing that less, but I still love it.

It's kind of the same. So like I still dabble with this comic idea, but sort of shifting away from trying to do everything because it's like it's a lot of work. But I was like, I have a decent sense of humor and I can put together these really odd esoteric things.

I was like, let me just hire an artist. And that's the thing that I've done. And here's the sort of the viral, the viralness of it, I guess, where my partner, she's now doing a comic webcomic about like cat podcasters. So using sort of some of my stories and it, you know, podcasting is like herding cats.

So let's give the cat podcast. I love that. And I just think like, you know, if it's something that you're into and you're curious about, you know, it's like the Jeff Goldblum thing. It's like, you know, nature finds a way. It's going to find a way. Yeah.

Kayla E.: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's right. I took like 10 years off of making art actually like that fancy limb thing. I think is really beautiful. And I found definitely found that to be true because there was a period of time where I just was unable, I think, to be creative or make art. My life was getting really, really hard.

I didn't really bad. And I had so much shame that I wasn't being productive that I wasn't like, I don't know, continuing to fill out my resume. I was an adult when I took that time off for making art.

And then, and then when my life started to stabilize, I picked it back up again and it's been flowing out of me ever since. But I really thought that I would never make art again. I wondered that during sort of that time of, I don't even know if it was like a creative block. It just was a choosing not to make art. I just didn't, I didn't want to. I didn't have time for it. It seemed like a privilege that I wasn't.

I didn't afford myself. And I wondered if it would ever, if I would ever make art again. But I wasn't feeling sad about it.

I just felt shame. But I'm, yeah, I'm really glad that I was patient with myself and, you know, takes what it takes and it's come back. And I was able to like finish my book and it's just a completely different sort of creative life I live now.

Rob Lee: I love that. And I like that we're teasing at a scosh. I got a few more questions before we start talking about the book. So I read about, what is this, Nate Burt?

Kayla E.: Yes, it's an art lit mag that I used to run.

Rob Lee: So nine years for that, right?

Kayla E.: Yeah, a long time.

Rob Lee: Can you talk about that period a little bit and like what it means for you? Because I'm detecting a bit of a through line, but I just want to have you like speak on that a bit that period of time. Yeah.

Kayla E.: So when I graduated from college, I ended up like going back to Texas, moving into my biological father's house and the like childhood bedroom that I was abused in. It just was a shit show. My life was terrible. But I had contributed to this little online lit mag called Naproot when I was in college. I was like asked to contribute cover art and I got to carry like a little comic section for it.

And then the two editors, the founders and editors didn't have time to run it anymore and they offered it to me. Like I really, I'd never met them in person. I'd worked with them, but they had a good experience working with me and trusted my vision. And I had done some, you know, I'd worked for a couple literary and humor magazines in college. So I had some experience with that. And I said yes, because I that was like sort of the start of the period where I wasn't creative.

I didn't have like a very good creative output. So I was like, all right, this is a thing that I can do and it's amplifying other people. So I can just like have as I could that sort of was the start of what I see is my bottom in addiction, sort of like the beginning of the end. But I had this project that I could nurture and that I really used as an anchor for me really like just I think as my identity.

Like that became the thing that kept me afloat. I edit Naproot. This is my thing. This is what I do. Like I nurture other people. I amplify writers and artists.

Like I can build something great even though my life is falling apart. And I went so hard with this project. I mean, I gave it everything.

I was working every spare second I had. I was working to build this beautiful publication that I felt like didn't exist. But people like artists and writers deserve to have a space that was like just so good.

You know, like a place where they were like deeply appreciated and understood and seen and validated and advocated for. So I gave myself to this magazine for so long. I work. Oh my God. I can't even it's like the amount of labor and time and money I put into it that it was extraordinary.

And it burnt me the fuck out. Hard. Hard, hard, hard. Because I sort of set up a standard for myself and kept raising the standard year after year after year where in 2020 we won a Whiting Award, which is fucking insane. Like we were the scrappy.

I mean, it's saved sort of like a scrappy magazine. I think our annual budget was like $2,000 and we're winning these like major national literary awards. It was extraordinary. And with that we were able to start like paying our contributors a modest amount. I mean, it was only $30.

But like my God, like that was a huge deal for us. We were all volunteer until the very end. And then when when it got it just got to be too much for me when I finally felt like I wanted to make creative work again. I had to step away because I was like, I can't make art and also create space for other people to make art. I cannot do both at the same time because if I'm going to work for that route, I'm going to give it my all. So yes, I left the organization and put it in the hands of the two extremely capable editors and fellow admin members that I was working with the last few years that I was involved.

And so now it's in their incredibly capable hands. But it was really sad to walk away. But honestly, it was kind of freeing. It freed up a lot of time was the main thing. And I think that that has served me very, very, very well to use that time for myself.

Rob Lee: Yeah, it's good to hear. It's good to hear sort of bad. That time was this. I look at when something is really hard, but we're just going particularly hard at it. It's a period where capacity is being built, especially we have all of these these different things like personal things that are happening. I've talked about it on this podcast where, you know, I went from I'm 40 now is 24 when I started. I should not be the same person, you know what I mean?

And that should be from degree of maturity. But there was a period where especially what 2016 where I just wasn't podcasting there. Period in 2012 where I just wasn't podcasting and friends would come by and it's like, you know, this is your thing.

Why are you not doing it? And then there's other periods where folks are listening perhaps to my I used to do a podcast called Mastermind Tames Robcast. It was a comedy pop culture podcast, weird news as well.

And I would have like friends who would like listen to my thing and it's like, you know, I haven't seen anything out from you in a while or sort of the types of stories or the tone and tenor of what I was. It was like my brother pointed it out. He's like when you were at your most depressed or angst written, it was some of the funniest stuff that you would talk about because you really didn't care.

And it was like a really interesting like period. I was like, thank you for enjoying my sadness, but also good feedback. You should write that as a review. That would be great.

Kayla E.: It's a good review. It's heartbreaking, but also so funny.

Rob Lee: And then even in doing this, which I referenced a little bit when we first started, when we think before we got on. So I'm closing on 900 episodes and one of those years of doing this podcast last six years, I did 322 in that year and the season or the year of recording closed out with a session for creative mornings. And, you know, it's a internationally streamed talk and basically you do a talk different creative folks. And the theme for this particular session was truth because the name of the podcast, the truth and the art. And I was invited as a guest and I'm sharing sort of my concept and my relationship with telling the truth and sharing the truth and so on. And I'm asking them fielding questions from folks who are there and someone asked me.

So we say, did you do a lot when you taken a break? I was like, right. And they're like, you're going to burn yourself out. So the years since that I've been purposefully trimming down the amount of time and effort that I'm putting into it because I put a couple hours worth of research into the interviews and then an hour or so on the interview and then maybe an hour or two post. So that's about five hours multiplied at 300 plus. 1500 hours of so much.

Kayla E.: Yeah. Yeah. How are you feeling like moving forward? Are you thinking like now that this season is coming to a close that you're going to change like your, your output?

Rob Lee: I think since since 2022, I've made that point to sort of trim it down. So 2022 to 23 was 75 from 322 last year, like 108 this year going to be at about 74. And I'm thinking sort of if I can do a week to do one to two per week, I'm happy at that number and I don't feel like I'm flacking. I don't feel like, you know, I'm kind of doing less. And some of the folks that I'm able to chat with it's just like I'm satisfying my curiosity in that way.

But also it opens me up to and I kind of really relate to I can't really do two different things with the same sort of vigor. But I can still do maybe a different podcast in addition to what I'm doing. So I brought back my movie podcast recently. I did a Halloween episode as the sort of relaunch of it. I did Tales from the Hood, which was a lot of fun.

Kayla E.: That's amazing. That's so cool. How often do you do that podcast too?

Rob Lee: So I hadn't done that one in like two years because I've been so busy with this one, but that was a once to twice a month sort of podcast. And, you know, with the volume that I was doing like in that 2023 year, you know, I was still doing 175 of this podcast and probably another 20 to 30 of the movie one. And just they both require a certain amount of research and time commitment. I have a job. I have all the other things, you know. So I just try to like craft it out. I just don't have any kids. I just have a cat that's kind of mid and that's about it.

Speaker 3: I'll talk about that. What's your cat's name? Poor thing.

Rob Lee: He's his name is Tiger. He's nine years old and he's a rescue. He has a FIV. So I treated that cat very great.

Speaker 3: But I will troll him though. Oh my goodness. That's so funny. Yeah, I've worked. I've worked full time this full time too.

Kayla E.: Yeah, running, running that nonprofit and even now like writing the book and I worked. I mean, I work in full day today, you know, it's got to make money. It's that was one of the things that I think was so depressing to me. You know, I talked a little bit earlier about how I, I believed in this idea that I could quote be an artist and I don't, I don't believe in that anymore. I mean, it's just, I frankly, I just don't think it's, it's real for the vast majority of us. And it's just this, this cartoon fiction that I thought if I worked hard enough and I was talented enough, then I could achieve my dreams and you know, I mean, we all know that.

World Works. When I graduated from college, I had this vision or before I graduated, I had this vision of how I thought my life was going to look. I was like, well, I managed to like get into college and like I dropped out of here, but I managed to graduate and like I did, I did really good in my department. I had like a fucking 4.0 and my major is an artist like I got the fancy award. Like I'm going to do great things.

I'm going to be an artist. I can do it. If anyone can, I can do it. And then I realized that grad school is extremely expensive because I got financial aid to go to college and that having a studio is extremely expensive and that you can't just quote, be an artist and make money like art supplies are expensive because at my college they were all paid for. And I had nothing. I had nothing and I had nowhere to go but my dad's disgusting house and there was no cushion. There was no safety net.

There was no plan. I had no idea how much money it took to do that to like to be afforded the time to even develop your practice as an artist. Like figure out like who you are as you like sort of launch. And I think that that was one of the things that definitely contributed to that period of sort of artistic quiet was such a deep disappointment and seeing and knowing that like it takes, I mean it really kind of takes a trust fund to do it. And that was never going to happen for me. And the people that I saw around me who sort of I thought were modeling a life that I could have, they all had trust funds. They were extremely wealthy students who graduated and like their parents like it literally like gave them the money to be the artist that I wanted to be, you know, and I that you can't do that.

You can't live in New York City if you don't have money because you can't pay your rent being an artist in New York City. You know, it's like it's back to it's back to Texas in your shitty bedroom eating Taco Bell and drinking yourself to death. Like that's what it really looked like for me. You know, I mean, it's a little negative, but it's just my reality. And even now, I mean, I still work full time to be able to, you know, be creative at all like I sort of like a second, a sort of second career, you know, like I still I'm a designer and a cartoonist and an artist.

But yeah, I think that was really sobering for me. And it's definitely still something that pains me, you know, that I can't just be a cartoonist. Like I really want to be a cartoonist. I wish I could quote be a cartoonist and that's my identity and that's my job. But I can't.

Rob Lee: No, I hear you and it makes me think of this other book that I've been like reading and playing with definitely super recommend death of the artist by William DeRosowitz. And it's definitely speaking to a lot of these things where the sort of the pipe drink the mirage, if you will, of you can do this, you have to put your effort in, you'll be great.

That's like, no, it's a rigged system. And, you know, I look at it even in doing this, like when folks when I talk to folks about how long I've been being a long up in a podcast or they're like, oh, you were around from the beginning. And it's kind of like the ellipses after that of and you still ain't make it. And I just like, oh, or better kind of see what I do. And they're like, you're good at this. I mean, folks that are in the industry, like professional journalism or journalists, and they're like, no, you're good. You should be here.

You belong in this. And, you know, it's sort of what it is almost deprecated in some ways and it's an illusion in others. And I just self identify and I just keep trying to rod with it and just having faith but also keeping this this net. I need help here, you know, and I'll call it that.

I'll call it that because I like to have terms, right? I say there are some periods where I need to do creative hibernation, you know, artistic hibernation and, you know, sort of wrapping the season up when I'm choosing to wrap it up. I know that folks are just not available. I don't know last month and a half of the year. So I was like, let's just close out more so in November and, you know, bring folks back in sort of January start to your new folks are fresh and so on. There's too many things going on at the end of the year. But in the past, I'd have that extra pressure on myself to produce and to make stuff and then juggle the job.

Speaker 3: And then that.

Rob Lee: So talk a bit about your your work. So, fantagraphics, right?

Kayla E.: Yes, yes, that is my my full time employer.

Rob Lee: So what is your role? I'm very creative director, but I'd like to ask you to make sure everything is sort of like I'm accurate on things. Could you talk about that work a bit?

Kayla E.: Yeah, I really is essentially I design books. Yeah, it's I really I think that's actually all I do. I just design books all day. Yeah, and it's it's really great to be able to design graphic novels and comics and, you know, work with content that I believe in and that I think is important and I'm glad is. That's my job.

Creating the front-facing images and visuals that people are going to associate with this work forever. It feels like, I don't know, it's not something that I take lightly. So I try to take my job seriously and really think about this work because I also, as a cartoonist, I know how hard it is to write a book. I know how long it takes, how little we're getting paid, and it just makes me feel even more motivated to do my best for every book. And we have a lot of books. I design a lot of books. They keep us busy. So, yeah.

Rob Lee: I kind of gathered that panel at SPX. I was like, how many of the books did you do covers for? I was like, you're just ready throughout all of this.

Kayla E.: I know. I know. I know. It's pretty wild. But, yeah. So they actually offered me the job after they acquired Precious Rubbish, which was like such a compliment. It was really, really fun and cool. And I had developed my own sort of boutique design firm in the years after college. I taught myself. I'm a completely self-taught graphic designer. And so taking the job as a fan of graphics was like, I had really, was not considering shutting down my business, which I still like, I'm working on one project right now. I work on like just a couple projects a year, still freelancing.

But, you know, my sole focus, nine to five, is this job. Yeah. It's wild. It's really cool. I mean, it's been able to like allow me to like develop relationships with cartoonists that I end up meeting in real life as a cartoonist. And it's like this immediate sort of intimacy and familiarity because they know that I know them and their work. And that, you know, so far I haven't had anybody have a negative experience working with me as their book designer. And so it's like allowed me now that my book is out to like feel, definitely feel more a part of the industry. I think because of my job, my, you know, my nine to five, which I'm very grateful for. Yeah.

That's really cool. And would not have happened otherwise, because like I said, I mentioned to you, I live in this like little town in North Carolina where I don't hang out with fellow industry people ever. Like, you know, like nobody in my town knows who I am.

I don't like get together and like go to parties and have dinners and like network. So without this job, I would have, you know, sort of dropped into contemporary comics without knowing a soul. So that was really helpful, I think for helping me feel less unmoored and alone as I navigated. Yeah, looks us.

Rob Lee: Love that. And I love that. See, you kind of help me out here. Like you kind of answer one of those questions already. So let's get into questions rubbish. But, uh, so, you know, this is four lengths debut. And you were kind of touching on how some of those, you know, from the, the fantagraphic word and sort of how that kind of helps with that, that debut, just the connection and being in the scene and being around artists and having that network and fellowship.

So for folks who are undipped, could you give them a little bit about sort of like the 30 seconds or like what the book is about? And then we'll dive in a bit further. Yes.

Kayla E.: So precious rubbish is my debut graphic memoir. It's an experimental book. So there isn't like sort of the traditional narrative arc. Um, it's not like, so they say any other graphic memoirs to be probably read. Dear listener, it's, uh, it's strange and it's extraordinarily sad. Um, it's, it's very, very, very, very, very dark material. I had just an absolutely horrific.

Oh, really bad. Um, yeah, uh, just about everything, uh, you could do to a kid happened to me and I write about it with as much honesty as I possibly could up until the time I sent the book to the printer. Um, talk about like truth in art.

Wow. I really, really, really pushed it as far as I could go. So it's a, it's a really difficult book to read. But, um, one, one thing that I've clung to was in one of the, like features in the New York times, a reviewer wrote that the book is difficult, but it's a pleasure to read as well, which means a lot to me because I was terrified that I was going to create something that was unreadable.

That was a net negative in the world. But the way that I draw it is I, uh, adapt like, like mid-century kids comics. This is really what I was telling you earlier, like the stuff that I read as a kid. So that's the, the style that I draw everything and everything, every single page of the entire book from the beginning to the end is drawn, adapted directly from, um, these old school kids comics, which I cite very meticulously in the end notes in the back of the book. Um, so it's just like deeply, deeply referential, but it's also, so that means like it's very bright. It's very like bubblegum, candy coated kid.

Happy looking fun time. When you open the book, uh, but then, you know, I'm, I'm sort of writing comics about my experience with addiction and my experience, you know, with incest and violence and poverty and hunger, um, growing up in Texas and, you know, religious abuse and all those things. So there's this dissonance that happens when you read it. Wow. That was not 30 seconds. I'm so sorry.

Rob Lee: I'll stop myself. No, no, you're good. You're good. You're good. You're good. You're giving me, you know, the, the real, and that's what I appreciate. And, um, so I'm going to go back on a couple of things just to get a little bit extra of texture there. Uh, so the title talk, talk a little bit about, so there's any, you know, like extra meaning, significance, or what does it mean to convey?

Kayla E.: Mm hmm. So, uh, around the time that I first started drawing the content that, that became this book, which was actually page two of the books, um, was the very first comic I ever drew digitally. And it's, uh, the start of precious rubbish. And that is where I, I titled it when I first draw it.

I come up with a color palette when I first drew it, um, character design and everything. And I was reading this book called precious rubbish by this guy named T.L. Shaw, and it was published, uh, in the mid century. And it's just sort of like scathing critique of the art world. Um, and he's kind of like, kind of like this, like, whacked, uh, intellectual, but like very self-aware, not well read. I mean, this is an obscure piece of writing that, uh, is, there's just not very much about it on the internet.

Um, I had actually read about it. I think in the end notes of my favorite cartoonist book, this book called, we all die alone by Martin Newgarden. So there's like one little sentence in his book in the back, like a tiny print where he mentioned this book, precious rubbish. And I'm just like obsessed with him, the sky, Martin Newgarden and anything he recommends. So I bought this book and I devoured it and it really spoke to sort of the moment I was in where I was feeling really disillusioned and disgusted by contempt, like the contemporary art world and how the machinery of it works. Um, and the book delighted me. And, uh, I felt like it, I was commiserating with Shaw, you know, and, and feeling disgusted and angered and also like frustrated by the pretension of the contemporary art world. And so he, he writes a lot about like sort of popular, what's deemed as like low culture and like the sort of arbitrary lines that we draw culturally between like what is high and what is low.

Like it's just nonsensical. And so I have always been really interested in quote, low cultures. I think growing up, like as a poor person, like living in a trailer, like reading comic strips, like, like I associate comics with class and sort of like this, this, this stratification that I was raised in. And so for me, almost like becoming a cartoonist, like felt like a revolt. Like I was just sort of classically trained artist who had no potential to make it. And I turned to comics as like the only form that I allowed myself to create in. And so when I started making comics, it was digital because it took up no footprint. It cost no money, which I had none. So I couldn't like buy big structures and big paintings and oil paint.

I could only make digital art. And so that was what came out of it. And I just, what else could I call it, but precious rubbish? Like that name, that title, it represented just so much of like the sort of like emotional place that I was in, the critical place that I was in, the way I was thinking about art and making and comics and myself and my place in the world.

It's just a very loaded title. And I, why would I ever let it go? I just kept it the whole, you know, 10 years it took till I finally put it out as a book, but it also, to me, I feel like in retrospect, like I see those two words as having like so much like layered meaning for the child. And like this book centers the child, the child, all of us, all of us as children. And like what it means to be the most valued member of society as like when something happens to a child, we all collectively gasp and seem to care more than if it happens to an adult. But then also children are such like, barely even seen as full human beings with, with so little rights and no autonomy and just being trapped in these houses of potential torture by their captors. Oh, force them into existence. Like, so are children precious or are they rubbish? Like what, what are we?

What is this book? Is comics precious or is it rubbish? Is it high?

Is it low? Like what, what, what is this? And it's a question that I'm asking my reader that I'm asking myself that I don't know the answer to. And so though that combination of words is also so difficult to say. And I find that fascinating that there's an already built in barrier to my book. Like you can't even say it. And like there's this block in talking about trauma and talking about incest and talking about what's taboo.

You can't even say it. You know, so it's just, there's so much to unpack that I could go on forever. But there's some of like the broadest strokes I think of like why, why this title?

Rob Lee: That, that's, that, that makes a lot of sense. And, you know, as I was thinking about it, sometimes like I feel like I lightweight and possessed by the thinking of the guest that I'm interviewing. So I'll ask like a question, what's in the title? And then I'm like, oh, that's what I was thinking. And not in that sort of, not in that go-shway, it's like exactly, you know, but more so like, yeah, because like I, so out of college, my, my first job, I was a marketing analyst, so just sort of the psychology of people and sort of the thinking and, you know, as I joked about earlier, I'm always quick for a pun or a dad joke.

Um, and I'm always playing with like the meaning of things. And, and remember when I started this podcast, it was initially called getting to the truth in this art too long of a title.

Speaker 3: And I got, I got some feedback from a person who was doing some marketing support for me and she was like, can you just trim off the first few words and just call it the truth in this art?

But, and, and I did that. And, but like, as I was touching on like a little bit earlier, I've been interviewed a lot recently and people have asked me what's the title, why the title? And they've had their own meanings to it, but they're asked like, so what is it? Like, why, why is that the name? And I was like, I actually backed Orton to the name. The name was something that was an inside joke from a Kevin Smith podcast.

Again, you know, podcast. And, uh, he was basically making fun of like pretentious artists. And he's like, yeah, you know, you know, my work is just so greatest truth in my art. And I was like, oh my God, I'm going to start saying that. I'm going to start saying it because I feel that it just is really heavy weighted sort of thing. And it's like, you're, you're making like paintings with brown ink and you're saying it's, you know, go shit, but it's not bad. It's not that heavy. So when I got to doing this and realized what I cured about in the interviews, I was like, no, there is some truth in what I'm doing.

I kind of backdoor it into it. What is the actual story at the heart of the person that I'm interviewing? Not just why is there art interesting? Why do they have something? Why, why are they popping up in my feed or why are they popping up in the top rankings for Google? But what is the story behind someone in really satisfying that curiosity?

I'm trying to find the humanity and the truth in the person and as well talk about their, their core work or what have you. So that's how I backdoor it into it, but initially it was an inside joke.

Kayla E.: That is so great. Backdoring into things. I feel like I backdoor into everything, everything about literally my whole life. And even understanding what my work is is all like a backdoor understanding of it. Like I, it's always in retrospect that I'm able to sort of make meaning out of what I'm doing.

And I just so relate to what you said. And I feel like really comforting to hear another creative person, like talk openly about that way of arriving somewhere. Because like every time I do it, people are like, you're so brave for saying that.

Speaker 3: I'm like, ah, I don't want to be brave. You know what I mean?

Kayla E.: But I'm sure this happens to a lot of us. We're just not saying it. You know, we're not all like meticulously planning everything out and like coming up with like all the conceptual backing of everything we do before we do it. You know? Yeah.

Rob Lee: For sure. And, um, you know, it's just one of those like silly goofy things. And because of so much parody in it, I remember the first year of the podcast, my cover looks so stupid.

It was just me with a jacket on, like a literally a picture of me with the city behind me. I was like, oh, this sucks so hard. How's this like, what is the thing that actually matters? And I realized like early on, it was like sort of a lack of confidence in it because I was literally, I was starting the, the, the fake it until you make it sort of thing. I knew I wanted to do something because the root of the podcast was, uh, you know, Trump says something about Baltimore.

I didn't like that's why I'm based. He said Baltimore is the city filled with rats. And I was like, I think we have more than that here. And I wanted to disprove it. That's remain true.

Speaker 3: And I thought the way to disprove it was through sort of this cross section of interviews with artists. I think that they're tapped in and it's not like, well, only these people in this community, everybody, everybody who lost a little, my radar, who I think is, who's interesting and who is just like, I'm curious about, but sort of working from, from that. And I started building confidence off of that. And so whenever I have all of these, I used to joke about it a lot.

These five foot eight white boys come to me and tell me that, Hey, we can do an extra business, bro. I'm gonna say, I don't know if I want them. I think I got it. I think I'm all set.

I'm six four, by the way. So it's a wild visual. And so, so I do this thing where I know what I want and I know what I care about. I trust my taste. So when someone comes to me and says, Hey, you should change it to be more like this. I already have that experience in that first year of doing something that I don't feel was as reflective of what I want it to be. So I changed my like logos, my cover, all of that stuff every year.

And I always hire artists that I work that I know. Hey, can you design this? I could put some cash in your pocket. So I'm putting back into the community hiring, you know, folks that I have the same editor, I've had the same editor for like he's a carryover from other podcasts, like eight years, you know, it's just consistency, relationships and all of that stuff. That's what's at the root of it. And, you know, but I want to continue. Yeah, but about that particular thing, I want to move into these sort of next, next two, two pieces here, because I can ramble on myself about how great I am.

Not really great at all. So, so precious rubbish is like innovative. It's unconventional as you know, the experimental piece, but it's familiar with that classic aesthetic. And, you know, I dare say, and I had to think of a better work. Cause I didn't like the word I had here initially, a more narrow like color palette. What was the thinking of like sort of blending the experimental, the experiential or experimental rather with traditional cartooning style and aesthetic?

Kayla E.: I had no idea. Excuse me. I had no idea what I was doing. I truly wasn't thinking deeply about anything at all. I, when I first started making this work, like the context was like, I was deep in my addiction. So like all the work I was making, I was not sober.

I was doing it. So I really didn't have my faculties about me and it kind of allowed me to just follow my instincts. And it also was like, I was, I felt this urge to make art or make comics specifically to try and understand what happened to me when I was a kid. But I was still like, like with my family. I was like living with my family.

Yeah. My abusers were like the old, literally my whole world. That was the only, those were the only people I saw. And I was making this work, like literally in secret. I did not want my family to find out because I didn't want to hurt their feelings. I didn't want to hurt them. I didn't want them to think that I like was mad at them or that I thought they weren't good parents or that I didn't want them to think I didn't love them.

You know? So all the decisions I made, it really, really, really freed me to do whatever the fuck I wanted to do without any concerns for what might be proper or what might be traditional or what would sell or what would people, what do people want to read? How would this contribute to the contemporary comics conversation? Literally not on my mind.

Cause like I'm never publishing this. This is, this is, this is literally for me to understand my own life. So the decisions that I made were just like, honestly, pure instinct base. And like looking back on it, like literally I opened the back door and I'm looking through and I'm like, oh, I see what you were doing there, Miss Kayla. Very smart.

But, um, no, she had no idea at the time that she was doing. And that, that, that, that, that's everything. That's literally every choice I was making, making this work, um, including the color palette. So I, for me, I was like collecting the, this, I've always been like a hipster nerd collecting like ephemera and just old shit. I just love to collect it.

And I was collecting these things called comic cards, um, with a K. And they were these, uh, like, uh, throw away little, um, travel postcards that were like mass produced and they had these like single panel gag comics on it. And the color palette was, is the color palette of precious rubbish? It's just like the name. I listed it. I just stole it.

I straight up stole it. I was like, I love this palette. This is hot. Something about this is just like extremely aesthetically appealing to me. And so when I made my first comic, um, it was called precious rubbish.

And it was the color palette of comic cards. Cause that's what I was thinking about. Look at it. You know, um, and it just sort of came out as is like, and there was nothing sort of beautiful or mystical about how that looked like me hunched over on my like dirty laptop, like in my childhood bedroom on the twin size mattress that I'd had since I was five.

Like just fucking shit shows. So depressing, but I'm in retrospect, there's something really beautiful about what was happening in that moment. Cause there was like, I was, I was clicked into something definitely bigger than myself. I had opened myself up to some kind of like, I literally think potentially like a spiritual experience of like something divine flowing through me, making this work that I didn't understand. I had no idea what I was doing.

I don't know what it, I don't know what it was. And here it is like a decade later and like my readers are telling me what it is and telling me that it has meaning. And that's extraordinary to me, you know, cause, um, I had no idea that it was ever going to be something like that. It's pretty cool. Yeah.

Rob Lee: I mean, I literally, you know, when, when folks mentioned something I've never heard of before, I immediately start typing and I was like, this is literally the same color of that.

That's really cool. And, um, again, again, in the sort of materials that I consume or have, I'm an audio book guy and, um, and you know, when I have something that's print, it means something that that's sort of the thing there for me, because I need to always like be engaged with something from an audio perspective. And I just remember, um, just sort of what the references are, like sort of the Dauphin, Cleon of it all again. And it's just like you consume the things that you like listening to him talk about like Quentin Tarrantino liking a certain type of movie. And then you see that stuff show up in his work and he's not even trying.

Speaker 3: And I, you know, I do the same thing here. Like, um, I had a chance to interview one of the guys, dude named Rafi Perez, who has this book, the rogue guards, the rogue guy to art is essentially like, that's the name of the book. And I just reached out to him very similarly, how I reached out to you. And he's like, yes. And I got to share with him.

I was like, dude, I use stuff that you talk about in questions for the pod. And he gave me a really cool compliment. He's like, I think you're taking the book to the next level. And I was just like, oh, that's so cool. Almost took a knee. I was like, oh, I can run out the clock now. It was fantastic. That's beautiful. Wow. How satisfying. I love that.

Rob Lee: So I want to talk about, I think I got this from a review, because I was a deep dive in a little bit. I was on Amazon. I was like, what are these people saying?

Speaker 3: So as described as a mixture of control and frankness. And when I hear the word frankness, I align that with sharing the truth. You know, we talked touching on that a little bit earlier. There's a sense that socially we're conditioned to share the truth, but with an asterisk or with limitations. Um, I shared with you what was one of the impotences for me to start this podcast. And I had an opportunity to do a TED talk, uh, TEDx for this podcast. And they wanted me to write down like the story. And they told me to change all of the Trump stuff in the beginning. And just one day I just wanted to interview people and that's the story.

And I was like, I don't know if that's true. My, my start was a fuck you to Trump. So let's not remove the spark. So could you share the importance of sharing the truth through your work? And, you know, that's, that's, I'm really curious about that.

Kayla E.: Yeah. So I have no interest in, um, any of this, if, if, if, if it's not honest, like, I wouldn't, this book means nothing. It wouldn't mean nothing if it wasn't as honest as possible, because like that is, that is what I was seeking in, in the creation of this work was the truth of what happened to me.

So everything surrounding this project, there's, I have, there's no other option for me other than to be completely honest. Like that, that's what gives the work. Meaning that's what gives my life. Meaning like I'm a sober person.

And so I think that like I'm coming up on nine years sober and like honesty is like the foundation of my sobriety. And it's sort of like how I've built anything good in my life is, I mean, I used to be a kleptomaniac. I mean, I was a fucking thief. I was a liar. I was a drunk, you know what I mean? Like I just was living a really hard life.

And, um, I don't want that anymore. So I'm interested in doing living a life that is, is rooted in goodness as, as, as good as, as good as it can possibly get with like as fucked up as things are out there. And like, I know that like I can control myself and I, I have like absolute autonomy over what I put out into the world, what I say. And like when I'm not completely honest, I make myself sick. I feel sick. My stomach hurts. And like I'm the one who has to like go to sleep with this like pain in me that like I wasn't true.

I wasn't saying, speaking the truth. And like now that I'm in sort of like a public fear to a certain extent and you know, experimental memoir comics. So I just thought saying much, but like, you know, I am talking to people who aren't just like in my home, you know? And so like from the very beginning, like I, I didn't even really have to make it a point.

I didn't have to commit to myself. I just knew I was going to be brutally honest. Like, and there's, there's, you know, some people say brutally honest and it's just an excuse to be an asshole. Like that's not, that's not how I approach the truth.

That's not how I approach honesty. Like for me, it's like the truth of my human experience. Like not the truth of like what I actually think of other things. Like I'm speaking the truth of me, of what I have the right to be honest about. Like what I know I can speak the truth to and it won't hurt anyone really, but my abusers. So fuck them.

I'm not worried about that, you know? And so that's just like sort of how I try to live my life. I, I, I try to do the next right thing every day and every conversation I have.

Like I don't want to have to remember all the different like ways that I've shrouded my story from interview to interview, like keeping track of like what I didn't say and how I talked around. Do you know what I mean? Like this is a book about truth. This is a book about my life, about, about the most taboo shit that you can talk about, you know? And so I think that like that honesty is just woven into the foundation of this work and to my life.

And for me, I just have no other option. And it's been really interesting because people are so shaken by it. Like this is so honest and crazy, you know? Like it really blows their mind. And it's like, I have sometimes I have to sort of step back and like remember that like what I'm doing is actually like a really big deal and that it's not super common, especially like that's why in Texas taboo, people don't want to fucking talk about it for good reason.

But like to hear to have somebody just like say this stuff openly and use that language openly. I have to remember sometimes that like it's just that it's rare, you know? I mean, I don't I never encounter it out in the world.

Like I say honestly that my parents didn't love me. Like I don't know if I've ever read or watched or seen another human being say that, you know, and it's something that I just I speak. I speak it because it's true. And why would I lie? You know, I don't know.

Speaker 3: That's yeah. Does that make sense? It does.

Rob Lee: It does. Um, everything you said has made sense. I mean, even the it's funny. I had to laugh for a second when you just like the piece around someone saying that they're brutally honest. I say something very similar.

I was like, yeah, they just think it's a license to be an asshole. So when you said that, I was just like, that is very familiar. Or even when, um, you know, there are some there's opportunities like I with this, this there's a certain degree of and I had this in a in an interview with a another podcaster. He's more in the journal, heavy journalism background. And we both were kind of talking about it, the sort of the idea of a podcast.

And it's like, yeah, you know, this is natural, it was improvised to a degree, but it is contrived as well. We're agreeing to meet at this time. We're agreeing to do this at this time and so on. So I try to in view as much truth into that while staying neutral, while trying to do, help guy, help be a Sherpa in some ways, the conversation for the guest.

And when it starts to feel like it's inauthentic or it's not quite hitting the mark in a way from a truth perspective, I don't really put a parameter on what someone talks about or how they talk about it. You know, my ass starts to itch. Like you said, you don't feel good. It's like, yeah, my ass off edge. It's just don't feel like this is normal.

It feels a little weird. But I want that honest thing. And there are times where folks are sharing literally the truth of what their experience is.

I've had a few times where I don't do the goofy got your journalism thing where, oh, you said something really, no, you've got a minute. We can edit. We can do whatever we need to do.

Right. And some folks are just doing it for the clicks. I don't get a shit about clicks. I care about being in a connection with some person and giving them sort of, you know, another outlet to, to share their story. I find a lot of times there are artists who are never interviewed. There are artists who've been interviewed rarely.

These are, this podcast is like the first time someone's actually asked someone about their work site. I see a lot of responsibility in, in sort of how I'm presenting it. And so I, and this is the other thing about it, the commerce piece, right? Where I've had so many folks reach out again, those five for day white boys who will tell me like, Hey, man, you need to put this behind a paywall. It's like putting someone's story where they're, you know, sharing and giving something sort of this trust for me to help them amplify their story, put it behind a playwall is disingenuous. I think that feels really weird.

I was like, I don't know if that aligns with my values. I'll figure out another way. So those things play a role in how I go about things. And that's what's true for me. That's what is aligned with my values for better or for worse.

Kayla E.: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, I really feel that in talking to you and you just are fostering. A space that like, I don't know, I feel like I'm not the freak who's being honest, you know, which sometimes I am, you know, and that's okay. That's okay. But I do like that from the get go, like I, I know that my story is safe with you.

Like my personality is like a good fit for you because the whole idea of what you're doing is about the truth. Yeah. So I, I mean, we appreciate that. Thank you.

Rob Lee: You know, you know, I saw, I saw you at FPX or saw you at CXC and this in recent months and I'm sort of an outsider to that stuff, but I've been around and start to feel like a community starts to feel almost like a reunion of creatives. Um, and it's especially interesting to me as a sort of a shy podcaster, but I'm able to turn it on. So how do you navigate that, especially considering sort of the press run component doing panels, how do you navigate that sort of part of this whole arc?

Kayla E.: Yeah, it's hard. It's hard for me. I am an intense introvert. Um, I, what, what, is there a name for it? There's like a word for when you're deeply introverted. Like you said, but you can turn it on. Uh, but, but being around people drains me. It does not, it's not a life giving for me at all.

Um, but I see, I, okay. So like in my normal life, I would absolutely never go out and be so engaged socially for fun, um, because it's actually not fun for me whatsoever. It's, it's, it's very, very, very hard. Um, not necessarily because of the subject matter. It's just, uh, I, I really, really, really value my time alone. Um, my time with my wife, with my dogs. I like silence.

Uh, I liked garden. Um, you know, I think I've had just like a really, really loud, uh, really shitty life. And now that I have built something like safe and quiet, like I just never want to leave, but I really do see this work. So like in sobriety, it's like really important, um, to maintain sobriety. The idea of doing service work of like doing something with your life that is like putting yourself, uh, second to the, the needs of others. And so the, the work, the way that I have understood the way that I can do service work is by talking to my readers about this work, by going out and like doing public facing stuff that is really hard for me, man.

Really hard. Um, but like meeting my readers face to face, giving them the opportunity to connect with me and to say, to say to me, me too, like look at me and make contact like with the author of the book that mirrored them. Like I know, I know that it means something.

I know it does because when I've had experiences like that, where I've been able to meet like a creator of work that has like mirrored me or like given me language for something, it's like an extremely important moment that I take very seriously and I don't ever want to fuck it up. Like, you know what I mean? Like I don't want to be too tired for someone.

I don't want to be in a bad mood and let that like impact the person coming to my table. Like I, I, I, and it's a labor, but it's a labor of love because I, I care about the stranger. Like, I mean, I'm, I don't know if this is just like hella crange. I mean, it is, but I'm a Christian. I'm a practicing Christian and like one of my like spiritual practices is seeing, trying to like, or just forcing myself to see Christ and everyone. No matter who comes to my table, whether it's a five foot eight white guy that like all I want to do is roll my eyes and turn my back. Like it's part of my spiritual life to try and treat that treat any person as like the same, you know, and so by bringing my best self to every interaction, my whole self to every interaction. And, and so it's very, it's, it's very meaningful and like spiritually fulfilling for me in that sense.

But it, it's not what I do for fun. You know what I mean? Yeah.

Yeah. Which is not the case. Like the common community is seen as like a very like welcoming awesome community for a lot of people.

Um, and I think that if my work wasn't, if the subject matter wasn't what it was, and I was just making cool comics to like be a part of like a cool community, it probably would be easier for me and what I would do it sort of like for fun. Um, but that just, I, I, I launched with precious rubbish. That's all I know. It's talking about precious rubbish and that's heavy as fuck. Um, so that's sort of what the experience has been like for me is, is just entirely rooted in that context. Yeah.

Rob Lee: Um, and in the two, you know, instances where I, you know, chatted with you very, very briefly, I think you've talked to my partner more than I did, uh, when we popped over there. And, um, at CXC, I just said hi to you very briefly, but it's a million people that are coming through. And even then the nearly 90 minutes we've been on this call together, um, you're, you've been a treat. You've come as advertised, um, through the work.

You've, you've been pleasant and that's been really, really cool to chat with you. I got one rapid fire question. I got rid of five of them. I got one rapid fire question for you and then we'll close out. Okay. So, um, if you can respond to this in one word or a sentence, excluding the normal things, right? Keys, phone, wallet. What is one item you never leave home without when you, when you rarely leave home?

Kayla E.: This is humiliating. Oh, talk about truth. My blankie. I have, um, attachment issues and there's this like ready blanket that I've had since the day I was born. And it is literally deteriorating in truth. It's the red bear and I am so utterly dependent on my blankie. I take it with me everywhere. It's like, absolutely so embarrassing.

Speaker 3: But it's a fucking truth, man.

Rob Lee: I don't think it's embarrassing. It's, it's, uh, it's what is it? Linus from like, uh, Joel Schultz back in the day.

Speaker 3: Exactly. That's exactly right. Yes.

Rob Lee: I think that's, I think that's pretty great. Um, and thank you for sharing that. I was a little extra tidbit there and you know, in these final moments, those two things I want to do, I want to thank you for coming on and spending some time with me. It's like, again, it's truly been a pleasure to chat and to kind of get to know you a bit further in this pod. And thank you for your, your sharing your truth and being so, so vulnerable even in this podcast. And, you know, for the listeners, could you share, you know, social media website, any of that stuff you want to share in these final moments? The floor is yours.

Kayla E.: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So definitely please buy my book. You can get it anywhere you like. I don't care. I really, you can get it on Amazon. You can get it on thriftbooks.com.

Make some difference to me. Check it out for your library. Just read my book and I, my, I'm on Instagram at precious.rubbish. I'm proud of it because my family's terrifying, but I say yes to everybody I'm not related to. So I will say yes to you. And my website is kaylaework.com. And you can see, uh, sort of the stuff that, that we were talking about, like that's not comic. So all of my fine artwork, like I do textile stuff and sculpture, video performance art, painting, drawing, and it's all on my website. So that's me.

Rob Lee: They have it folks. I want to again thank Kayla E for coming on to the podcast and spending some time with me. And for Kayla E, I'm Rob Lee, saying that there's art, culture, and community in and around your neck of the woods. You just have to look forward.