The Truth In This Art: Stories That Matter

Rob Lee: Welcome to the Truth in this Art your source for conversations connecting arts, culture, and community. These are stories that matter and I am your host Rob Lee. Today, I'm excited to welcome my next guest all into the podcast. He is an Ignats and Eisner award-winning cartoonist. His works range from the fantastical to the autobiographical and contain social commentary on politics, activism, white supremacy, the United States sports, and the experience of black Americans.

His works include Sports as Hell, Your Black Friend, and numerous contributions to the nib, as well as his new graphic nonfiction work, Black Arms to Hold You Up. Please welcome to the podcast, then pass more. Welcome to the podcast.

Ben Passmore: Hey, I'm happy to be here. I almost never mean that when I say it in general, but I mean it. I mean it in this moment. Thank you.

Rob Lee: I appreciate that. Yeah, it's one of those things where I'm coming up on 900 episodes of doing this pod and spent about over six years and folks are like, when do you get nervous? When do you get starstruck? And it's just like, not often out of all of these interviews. But now I'm in that spot where it's a little bit of both. So thank you for that, Ben. I appreciate that. This is your fault.

Ben Passmore: And I won't take responsibility for it. I feel like it's because you know deep down I'm a bit messy, which is the burden that all my friends have. Strangers think that I'm respectful and respectable. Friends know that I'm a mess. This is going to go well.

Rob Lee: So if I want to start off with to do the sort of tapping back on that, I find that often when we get these bios and all of that good stuff that the bios like professional and it kind of misses the mark sometimes and it can miss the essence of who the person is, what they're about and so on. So in your own words, who has been past more? Hmm.

Ben Passmore: Former felon, absolutely. From an area that is only good for apple cider doughnuts and and and plowing. A lot of good snow plowers in my region. Jordan Ness, Michael Jordan Ness, snow plowers. Now, OK, so yeah, anarchist cartoonist or cartoonist who who writes from anarchist perspective, I do or I'm known for a lot of editorial work, comics journalism, when that when that was sort of at a tight couple years ago. But I do a lot of things about radical black history, grass roots, street movements, both anti fascist and anti police. So I've you know, I've done books that sort of run the gamut a bit. The most notable one being Your Black Friends, which was a comic about black alienation, the white people thought was for them. I did a book called Sports as Hell that was essentially about the development of a bit of a civil war that that came out of a Super Bowl riot. That was originally supposed to be a 60 page taked out of Colin Kaepernick as he was as he was kneeling. But but I bailed at the last minute, but I got an eye for that. Might have gotten to if Kaepernick was still in it. And then the recent book is about the history of black liberation movements. Your black arms old you up.

Rob Lee: So it's going to range. Thank you. And we're going to definitely delve into it a bit more. I hate the word delve, but it was it was real. It was a real word. I said there.

I don't like the word. But I felt I like to I like to go back a little bit and set the set the stage, if you will. Like, could you share one of your earliest moments or earliest memories, if you will, of cartooning and art and large, whether it be, you know, I remember I was like five and I got a bunch of comics and, you know, what would those comics things like that? One of your first memories, whether it be in appreciating it or making a cartoon to an art.

Ben Passmore: Yeah, I mean, I was definitely or have definitely been drawing since I was little, really, like most people, right? Like most people as kids draw. I just had the luxury or or just the lack of social skills to to transition from drawing into football or things like that. I just stayed drawing.

My mom was really supportive, though. She she likes to paint. She likes to draw. So she used to, you know, really sort of facilitate space for me to draw all the time and where I'm from and role in the Winkland.

There's a lot of painters sort of pretending to be Picasso in the hills around the town where I'm from. And my mom, you know, I think sort of at the time, imagine that she was a bit of like forgetting the word. But, you know, she was artsy, you know, she's trying to be around artsy people. So I would just always be kind of sitting there drawing either, you know, in someone in some like trustafarian sort of art space in the corners or I used to go to this corner store kind of around the around the corner for my for my house and sit there and read as many comic books as I could until the the owner like kicked me out. That was like a pretty regular after school experience. So like my first comic that I drew was just like a straight rip off of spawn.

My babysitter, my babysitter passed me, I think a spawn one, which probably would be worth something if it wasn't, you know, covered in gum and destroyed, I'm sure, and my mom's out. And it was sort of it felt like, you know, him passing down like a mystical item. You know, he was a he was a black nerd, you know, I think very proudly. He also put me on the like Power Rangers and stuff like that. And he put me on the spawn and I sat there and I tried to draw, you know, my own version of him with all the chains and spikes and stuff.

Rob Lee: That's that's you had a really good point there, like just, you know, folks drawing when they're young, like that was a thing and very similar. It wasn't spawn for me. It was frigging Wildcats. Oh, Jim, and my dad brought back like the first thing for issues of something. Again, would be worth something right now if I didn't really help.

Sorry, if my brother didn't ruin them. But, you know, I did a comic when I was in middle school trying to do every piece of it and I remember I was just like not doing my work, but working on that. And, you know, teachers like, oh my God, it's so great. You know, you should work a little harder in your class, your classwork, but this is really good.

Let's foster that. And I didn't go any further with it, but that was sort of that first creative love, if you will. And I don't know when that was like night. I was like seven maybe.

Ben Passmore: Yeah. Yeah, Wildcats. I'm trying to remember Jim Lee, all the women looked the same. Wear the feet. So these are good starts for a comic's career. I don't like it.

Speaker 3: I had something.

Rob Lee: So I want to move into a little bit. You touched on some of some specific works. So starting off, like let's talk a bit about like your process across like projects. Just sort of like from from idea to creation, I would imagine that there's a difference here from let's say in a very early work to your most recent work. I'm kind of putting a pin in that, but in that sort of process, because you break it down, tell us what's stayed constant and what's I'll ask you the second part, but sort of what's the process like and what's stayed constant over the years for you?

Ben Passmore: It's interesting thinking about it, thinking about the books in the most obvious way and the way that people who are reviewing my work generally talk about it. They start with your black friend, which is I think only about 11 pages. Maybe. Well, it can't be 11 because that's not the way books work. But you know, like probably 10. And then sports as hell is 60 pages.

And then now this book is 200 pages. So I think people are generally, you know, those are the most visible things for a lot of people. People don't, I think, notice the short form stuff, like the internet stuff, even though that's largely what's paid my bills for, you know, below this, you know, mid 15, 16 years, you know. So I think in some ways people have been like, oh, what's it like to, you know, to finally do a major work or something. But, but I think in some ways, when you're freelance cartoonist, you're always just sort of like sitting in this constant churning state of making something. And, you know, in some ways you sort of like lick your fingers and sort of just kind of stop, you know, stop the process. And you're like, I, this is where the book starts. And then you stop it again.

You're like, that's where the book ends. And your black friend and other strangers, which is a collection is sort of like that. And in a lot of ways where people have been like, oh, it's just a collection.

That's not really a book. It's like, well, you're not really understanding. Like so much of comics is making a lot of little decisions and trusting that, like these concepts of an overall vision that you have will sort of like come together. And even black arms, even though it's a, it's one, it's one, it's one, it's cohesive story, you know, there's, it starts with me and my dad being in one place and my dad wanted to introduce me to a history. And there's like several different arcs, you know, mean things with my, my dad developed, I developed this character, you know, we, we, you know, see this hundred years of history laid out. Boom, that's a book.

But it's still, the one cut, RU has a bit of like an anthology field. Um, the process. I didn't, I didn't say it.

I can't think about it. No, no, please. Well, I think, well, and so, and so going back to the, to be your black friend comic, you know, I had been doing, um, pretty like, like bog standard in the sort of underground inspired comics. I did this series called Daeglo A-hole for a long, long time.

Um, yeah. Very serious name, very adult. Um, that was really just my version of a mix of autobiocomics and, um, Gary Panther Jimbo, um, maybe, you know, his like, what is it, Dallas, Tokyo, kind of stuff too. It's like similar, similar, similar vibe. Um, and when I did your black friends, that was like, uh, a huge deviation from like what I, what I did and what I ever wanted to do. I didn't have a whole lot of interest in doing nonfiction and the, and the mini comic of your black friend came out of, and I guess I've told the story a lot, just out of basically requests by my roommate, my boy, Greg, to just, you know, we read France and on black and white, Matt, he was like, oh, you should do a comic. Um, not so much about, you know, the, the comic is not about that book, but really out of these like series of conversations me and Greg were having.

Sure. Um, as to, you know, like young black anarchists, uh, in like a pretty white state, um, we had sort of realizations about our relationship to each other, white people go above. So I made that maybe in like a week, you know what I mean? I sat down, had a series of ideas.

Um, I didn't do like a whole, you know, no editing really, you know what I'm being like, there were not different versions of the script. Like I sat down and I wrote and I have like a bit of a tendency to, uh, sort of chew on a bunch of ideas without touching any paper, like no note taking. And, um, and, and then just sort of like fired out. I think it contributes to, to my comics being a bit immediate. Um, sports is how it was sort of similar, although, you know, you have to, or I find that I have to create a certain amount of infrastructure to like make sure that I like lace the series of ideas into some kind of cohesive story. Um, or at least that there's some sort of like development, like often, um, both words as hell and, and black arms, like the, the endings are sort of anti endings.

Um, a bit, you know, black arms, I think originally was going to have a much more. Sort of like nihilistic, uh, sarcastic sort of end in the way that it's more of the self just ends. And I've seen this a million different ways, different comments with people being annoyed with that.

But, um, and, and your black friend also has a basically a non ending, right? I think a lot of that has to do with my, my relationship to, um, people wanting to talk to me about, you know, the political concepts that I write about just in real life or on social media, there's this real strong pull I think people have to defer to me for like a conclusive answer on these things. Um, when I think a lot of it is, is not really about that so much. So that's, I mean, maybe that's, yeah, that, that series of ranch. I'll just lay down answers.

Rob Lee: No, that helps. That definitely, you know, gives some sort of thought to it and sort of that, that progression and sort of going from as far as the three works described, you know, going from sort of a shorter format to a longer format and even you're even answered the, the other question of that did even pose yet sort of, um, what's the habit that you drop and what's one that you'll never drop. And it's sort of that not necessarily ambiguity. It's like, this is how I, in my books.

Ben Passmore: Yeah. Yeah. I think that there's definitely, there's definitely a, a bit of sort of, uh, there's been this tendency, uh, that I've really stuck to up until this new book to sort of, uh, be flying without a net, you know, to just, to just be as, um, like shooting from the hip as possible, um, a third visual metaphor. But I think with, with, uh, with black arms, I, I really came to realize the amount of discipline required just, just as a matter of not going insane. Uh, one has to have around producing, uh, such a, uh, an ambitious work that I had to plan, um, so much around how that book was going to work.

Yeah. Um, and outside of what I felt like was, um, what was going to be expectations, people that felt invested in the topic itself, like the amount of respect that I felt I needed to, um, you know, sort of, sort of respond to when depicting all of these historical figures, these controversies, like I knew I was going to make people upset and mad and defensive when I made this book. So I think with, with black arms, I had to abandon, um, a lot of the impulsiveness that I usually bring to a work.

Rob Lee: So, so with it, that's, that's not, uh, because since we're already like on the topic, let's go into it, um, for folks that may have missed it. Give us a quick pitch on, on what, what is, what is black arms?

Give us a quick pitch on that. And then also, you know, sort of, I'm feeling like there's, uh, significance into the title. And I, you know, from what I get from you, you know, I know you outside of this. I was like, all right, then, what are you doing here? I'm like, I'm like playing with a puzzle in a sense. It's like, there's five different meanings.

What does past more mean? So I'm going to ask you, you know, sort of give us a bit of that quick pitch and, you know, any, any thoughts or, is you want to share about the title?

Ben Passmore: Yeah, that's giving me a lot of credit. I appreciate it. So you're, you're a black friend of black arms to hold you up is a, is a bit of a mix of the magic school bus and the black power mix states in comic form.

It's the spirit of mash together. It, uh, it follows me and my father as he tries to instill in me an investment in the black radical tradition in general, um, the tradition of black liberation and also, uh, to, to help me sort of understand that there is an, that I need to be invested within sort of black community in a lot of ways too. Um, this is not a real, uh, interaction in any way that's ever happened with my father. And, uh, and, and it's often true, uh, the Ben and the book is, it's not, you know, um, the Ben and realized, but, um, but yeah, we, we go through, um, and my father forces me to learn about, um, Robert Charles who, who got into a fight with, uh, 10,000 soldiers, police, and racist farmers in New Orleans. We meet, uh, Robert F. Williams, Marcus Garvey. Uh, we, you know, see the first, uh, day of the Republican, New Africa, which was, uh, sort of a, uh, umbrella organization that was trying to, uh, get the United States to, uh, give them, uh, five Southern states for, uh, for a black nation. Um, we learn about Asada.

Uh, we learn about the MOVE organization, which is the, uh, the first, uh, they were the first American citizens to be bombed by the United States within the country. Uh, we, we meet, uh, Taniaki Shakur, who was the CRIP, who became, uh, radicalized in prison. Uh, and we, we end sort of from how we began with, uh, you know, arguably someone say a mass shooter.

Uh, we started with, um, with Robert Charles and we end with Mike, David Johnson, who, uh, after watching, um, the murder of Philanoplastial on video, as many of us did, he went out and he, um, shot, uh, uh, several cops during a BLM protest. Yeah.

Rob Lee: The, wow. Um, and to talk about the name a little bit. Yeah.

Ben Passmore: Yeah. So, um, the name, and this is really true for, for the majority of my books, like often the title will be, will come before the story. Um, so what that means is that, uh, I have to, I, part of the, the early production of the book is marinating on what it could possibly mean and what I possibly could have meant. Um, uh, because yeah, I sold the book to Pantheon with the name and, um, several in the different subjects I wanted to write about.

Um, and then, you know, I, and then, you know, after a couple months after, uh, selling the book, I was like, okay, I have to make something. I think originally I was thinking about sort of the duality and, you know, it's very, very little, or literal rather, just the duality of, of, of black people having guns in America, right? That it's, that it's for our safety. Um, and that, you know, sort of like the, the white, the sort of the white relationship to it is, is one of fear and also sort of romanticization. Um, but pretty early on in the book, I, or in sort of thinking about the book, I was like, well, I think the, there's a couple of choices I want to make. Um, or there's a couple of things I don't want to write about intentionally, even though they're going to be expected of me because I don't want to be dragged down in the same way that I think we are almost always dragged down, uh, or held back, um, to sort of as a community living inside of a white hegemon, uh, one being this sort of like false dichotomy of violence versus non-violence. Um, this, uh, this idea about like, oh, like, but should they involve guns? You know, this sort of like this liberal conversation about gun violence that is like, uh, sort of relevant to us, but not really. We are community has a very different relationship, you know, to all of these things, right?

Um, but we're, we're, we're always sort of like, uh, locked in having to sort of acknowledge that the nonsense that they're, that they're talking about. So I was like, okay, so I'm not going to have a chapter that justifies the presence of guns. I'm not going to, uh, devote really any time to trying to justify quote unquote violence. Um, and so I thought about like what, what are, what are sort of like both guns, but also like, what is this, what is this history to me? And it's like, it is, you know, like we do experience violence from other black people through guns. We're also uplifted by guns.

I, and, you know, of course I used the word arms. So obviously that, that is standing in for sort of like the, the ancestral uplift that is an inherent part of the, you know, this history, but also the story, right? It's a stand in for my, my father's relationship with me. Um, you know, all these people that I'm writing about, but also, you know, like there's a bit of conversation, particularly in the Chinyuka chapter, um, it sort of talks about, um, his various feelings about the fact that the only people he ever killed were other black people, you know. Um, so, so yeah, the, the title really, I think initially was, was me just being a bit tongue in cheek.

Um, but then ended up having a, uh, a much deeper meaning to me and, uh, and really, really did fit the book, I think pretty well, uh, by the end.

Rob Lee: Thank you. Thank you. Um, again, I relate, you know, and that I've had to ask, answer this question a few times as to name in the title of this podcast, you know, it's like, where'd it come from? I was like, well, it's initially called getting to the truth and then it's R and I changed it. And I was like, it all comes from a bit from me making fun of like overly, just overly into themselves artists.

Man, there's truth in my art. And that was just what, what it was. I was like, that sounds clever.

That sounds fun. That sounds like a little little, you know, tongue in cheek in that, that way. And then I over the years have backdoored into that and said, oh, no, this is sort of what's the real story stories matter and all of that stuff. But initially it was a bit.

Ben Passmore: I wonder, I wonder if, um, and this is, this is me thinking about my own relationship to the presentation of my work. I wonder how, I wonder how often we find that one, right, over seriousness is, is a part of, of art that is, um, like cringey for lack of a better word. But I think also I find myself and I see in other people, maybe more specifically other Black men, sort of this, this tension around, um, presenting sort of our deeper ideas, uh, unapologetically, you know, like for me, uh, some, something that's been both true, my work and true, my life is that and the phrase I use with my partners, like, I just have been trying to remove like the, the shine, the shuck and jive, like the, like out of my, out of my presentation, you know, some of this comes from coming from indie comics that has its own tradition of, of men presenting themselves in like an unflattering way. But I realized that this, that this also extended to my personal life that I, I wanted to disarm to take a phrase that works for the, for the subject, but I, I found myself wanting to sort of like be disarming. Um, and, uh, and yeah, I wonder, I wonder if that, if that's come into it for you in any way.

Rob Lee: Oh yeah. You know, in doing this, I'm in some of these mixed rooms and I've been a podcast or almost 17 years. And the last six years I've been in these sort of mixed rooms where, you know, I have to be the kind soft spoken, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, it's not really me. I'm not a, not a dick, but also like you know me outside of this, you're getting to know me outside of this, um, sort of like scope and I'm just like a regular dude, but sort of in those, those different rooms, I'll, I'll share this example before I move into this, this next question is sort of this.

I remember, you know, kind of doing the hat and hand thing going into this season, but no, no ducket. So I was like, I don't know how I'm going to do it. We got to figure it out. And it's feeling really weird, really unconfident in the stuff that I've been doing. But then in sort of a going back home in a sense, uh, I was invited to, uh, premiere of this HBCU week and I was back there at my old school and, you know, in a room that I was supposed to be in because of the nature of what I do. And I was like, Oh no, no, I'm pretty tight. I'm just being me. Those other rooms were just weird and making myself smaller and all of these different things. I was like, nah, we're not really doing that. So sometimes I just pop up with giant gold chains on just to see what the response and I do giant gold chains and, um, and just like doing just extra stuff just to get the response, almost the entity, the opposite of what I used to do.

Ben Passmore: Yeah. Yeah. Which I think is good is growth, but there's also like, I think part of the, right, part of the complexity is that, um, you know, to be, to make money in art, you're going to be in rooms of mostly non-black people and that regardless of who you are or how comfortable you are with your presentation, they're not seeing you how you're even seen in your own community. And then in your sort of lock to that, I've been thinking with, um, not, not to, not to totally swerve away from, from my book or whatever, but, but, you know, obviously DeAngelo transitioned recently. And, um, I think, you know, a lot of things are coming up. We're seeing a lot of like clips to interviews and clips of his performances and people sort of just, um, you know, you legit, I think, as they often do. And I always think about, um, I think the first sort of like lore that I learned about him, um, you know, after, uh, listening to his first CD was, was this narrative, right? He, there was the music video, right?

He was out there with the shirt off, like looking cut. And then there was this, you know, and then he really grappled and crumbled with this expectation to fulfill, right, that kind of like hypersexual masculinity. And, and I think that, you know, I love his music, uh, when I was younger and I listened to it, that, you know, on rotation. Uh, and then I didn't really follow him, you know, necessarily, you know, more recently and watching videos of this mix. He just a weirdo intellectual nerd, genius, you know, and, um, I was like, man, like, it's, um, there's such a, not to, not to sound like a all man of spirit podcast, but there really is this sort of tragedy that is really, really hard to talk about when, when we struggle, right?

With, with these expectations, expectations of masculinity in this particular way that also breeds economic success. But it's like, in your heart of hearts, you're like, I'm, I'm not that and I can't maintain that. Um, and it's, and you know, it's like, it kind of, it kind of is what it is because we live inside a white supremacist state.

Yeah. You know, it's like, it's, it's so unresolvable. And I think it's something that I think about all the time. And it is, it is something that, um, something that I think is, is at the core of the book in a lot of ways too.

It's like, this is a liberation movement, very similar to liberation movement in other places. But the thing that is always the issue is that we are 13% of the population inside the richest country in the world. And that it's, and that like in, in certain places we would have, we would have broke through, right? Um, but it, but we're like, we're not only, uh, uh, struggling to achieve liberation, but we're struggling to keep the story straight.

Yeah. We're, we're struggling to maintain just the, just the image, just the clear image of what the liberation movement looks like. Uh, and, and, and that has everything to do with the fact of the fact that we're surrounded and we don't actually have control of the means of communication of narrative most of the time.

Rob Lee: I think that's one of the things that goes into, I do it the way that I do it, but sort of why my introduction or my first question is the way that it is. Often we need to fit something that's not quite us. We have a thing that's written in a way to make it easily digestible for that non-13% of the population. I thought that 13% number out there all the time. I was like, how could we be committing all the crimes?

Ain't no way. Um, and, and I get it in that from my career through, through now, from my, literally my first job at like, you know, out of college at like 23 or something. It's like, Oh, you know, you're like fresh off the street.

You know, you're a big black guy and I was like, wow, this is coming from my white boss who's five one. I was like, oh, okay, cool. And I started to just follow the way of this is what I represent.

This is what I think or what I'm thought of. And as I would go along, you know, I've been in sort of the, you know, outside of this podcast and the education space for a long time, the higher ed for a long time, and having this assumption that, Oh, you don't have any degree. You don't have any original thoughts and seeing sort of the weird categorization of there's only like three or four types of black guys that can be in the office. And I was like, I don't know if I fit in any of these archetypes you guys are presenting here. And I start looking at how I interact with people or how people receive me. And it's like, Oh, Oh, that's what it is. I'm falling outside of the sort of box.

And in doing this is sort of a replay, but through a maybe different lens is like, I don't know if that really fits. I don't know if you're an artist enough or a journalist enough or whatever it is. And I said this and then now and I'll move into the next thing. But I said this a couple years ago, when I did a creative mornings talk, and it was a running bit. I was like, Oh, you know, this thing that I built, don't worry, two years, some white girl is going to take this whole thing over and it'll just be her podcast. And here was like, what? Like literally, this is going to happen.

Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it is, it is, it is amazing that yet a mediocre white version of anything we do will be infinitely more economically successful. It's almost as if morality and quality have no connection to capital.

Rob Lee: So I want to move into this is I'm curious, because I've, you know, I've been enjoying the book, not quite finished, but definitely been enjoying it and you know, taking my taking my time with it, but also like, you know, going through it for me, it's definitely a page turn as I joke about. And I've had some folks in sort of graphic novel and in comic space, it's like, yeah, if it's a gateway drug to reading more, which is the way that I look at like graphic novels and comics and so on. So for you, thinking about it, like, what was maybe the hardest chapter to write to like, like produce because you're writing your illustration, you don't know a whole gamut. And what's the most interesting thing that you've learned in the research as well, because there's a lot of care and attention that you touched on earlier that goes into it. So what was the hardest chapter to just, you know, create? And what was the most interesting thing you learned?

Ben Passmore: Well, I think, I think something that became obvious immediately was, was, was just that the, the research phase could go on for decades, you know, it's something that I had known a bit about because, you know, I'd have to research, you know, quite a bit for like, say, I did a short comic about ATM bombers during the 2020 uprising. And that itself is like, once you, once you sort of like start lifting up rocks, it's like, oh, okay, well, there's tons of stuff here. And this, this topic, just, you know, like liberation in general, or, you know, more specifically, sort of the new African tradition.

It's, you know, it's, it's, it's super rich, and it, and it touches all parts of society. I think it in one way I could answer the question just on a purely technical level, like, what was the hardest chapter? And the, and the last chapter with Mike, David Johnson was technically the most challenging because there was the least sort of available to me to know about him. He was, you know, he was a shooter, quote unquote, in the modern era. You know, I was, you know, a cartoonist in 2016. And my beat sort of covered that sort of thing. So I, you know, I got on social media, I was like, oh, you know, he got a Facebook, I'm sure this and that, you know, but of course, like all that stuff comes down. And, and what replaces it is a lot of like, a lot of narrative about him, right, that, that sort of skews towards him being crazy, you know, him being immoral. And it's, and you know, he can be those things, right?

It is, you know, we are more than capable of being immoral and crazy. But he was a very kind of noble person in a lot of ways for us because he was so normal. He seemed to be very troubled just in his isolation in some ways that, in some ways that it's just really hard to know because we just got little peaks of him.

You know, I tried to contact his parents, they did one interview with like a local, I don't even think it was a TV channel, it's just like a YouTube account in, in near Dallas. So, you know, in these, in these ways, I had to, I found little windows into what he might have been like and tried to sort of sketch out something out of that. But the, so that was one technical problem. And just the other one was that in the beginning, he was going to get his own dedicated chapter and then there was going to be a conclusion. And then just as it, as it happens, you know, things take their own space. I found that I needed to wind down the book, the whole book, during his chapter. So, talked about him, his alienation, what the real tragedy is when someone commits suicide in that way? Like what is really lost?

And it sort of worked out because in the end, I don't want to spoil it for you too much, but what ends up happening is that my father ultimately wraps up our kind of perspective we sort of have about being a gorilla. That is a lot of what it means to be a freedom fighter who is fighting. He's not just like some kind of director of the nonprofit. I'm writing about people who are actually revolutionaries, not people who are like revolutionary T.M. And I think what can get twisted is that people think that what motivates a revolutionary is hatred, what motivates a revolutionary is self-destruction. And I think in some ways, Micah was confused in that way because he had no radical community to be with. And I wrote about Asada as a really good example.

Someone who did very similar things, but she did it because she wanted to live and that she wanted to be a part of her tradition in which we can live freely. And to me, that's the difference. So landing that plane was a bit difficult. And I think there were so many really interesting things that came out of the research, so many things I didn't know. On a topic that I thought that I felt strong enough that I knew about it to put your book on it, I learned a lot more about the Reconstruction Era than I knew that there is a lot of insurrectionary history there that is not talked about just amongst people fighting for their dignity and liberation against lynching, against exploitation. But I think the thing that I feel the most proud of that I wish that I could have put more in is the prison, is these a prison association that existed really, really briefly, I think in the 80s.

There was the Blue Notes. There was the CCC and I believe there's one or two others, but these were prison gangs. All these crypts are going into the prisons, the war, war on whatever, war on crime, war on drug. But it's a prison system that was sort of remolded to accommodate, in a matter of speaking, black revolutionaries. And in some ways, the black revolutionary spirit was adopted and misunderstood by a lot of these street organizations, and ironically, they end up in the same prisons.

So this is a matter of sort of practicality. There's a lot of different crypts, crypt sets who are ending up in the same prison, ending up bunked with each other. A lot of these sets are constantly with each other. So there were a lot of OGs, many who were in solitary, right next to the panthers, who were like, well, we have to figure out how to develop these music agreements while in prison. So the CCC was the only one, as far as I can tell, and we know this because Sinyika Shakur wrote about it.

Now, that's not the only reason we know about it, which I'll go into a little bit. But the person that I originally hear from is Sinyika Shakur and his book Monster. And he writes about how the CCC became a Maoist revolutionary formation inside the prisons that required crypts to learn and speak Swahili to do yard exercises. They had a schedule throughout the day. They were required to study Mao. They were required to study a bunch of George Jackson and write book reports. They had a free store for impoverished crypts who couldn't buy food and stuff.

So they had a free store. And this is not something that I had ever heard about. And so trying to be diligent, I was like, well, I know that Sinyika Shakur and his book Monster has been accused of lying about a couple things. So let me make sure that there's any sort of evidence that this formation existed.

And the difficulty is that the CCC was sort of shaped based off of the Black Arrilled family. So there's secret words that you get snuck to and that's part of your initiation, rather. And you're not supposed to talk about it to non-members or whatever. So it was a secret thing, but I thought maybe someone is speaking on this now because it's been a long time.

And basically right at the time that I'm researching this stuff, some OGs who have gotten out of prison started sharing with just some of these YouTube accounts that are just like talking about street politics. Not political. This is not ending up on MPR. This is not ending up on millennials are killing capitalism.

They don't give shit about it. It's just whoever, whoever, like DJ Wreck from around the way is just interviewing this OG who's talking about how crypts were Maoist for a little bit because they saw, because that is one of the narratives about the crypts is that they were originally a street organization, a Maoist revolutionary organization. So I got to learn a bit about what that was like, sort of the circumstances in which these organizations arose and the reasons that they don't exist anymore. So yeah, it's really incredible. And I really wish there was more on it because it does feel like a bit of a way forward, potentially.

Rob Lee: Yeah, I think, you know, sort of thank you because that, you know, and sort of I said this at SPX when you had your talk there, I was agent in it as upon, you know, reading, you know, reading the book, I was just like, I think Ben is over here activating me and become more revolutionary over here getting tight. And I was like, I, I mean, finish this report real quick. I should put this book down because I have a deadline, but I'll throw this in there.

I think it's a nice, nice sort of follow up question or territory. So, you know, the book is, you know, tackling some of these things in your work and I think macroleyspeaking hits on some of these like tougher issues of real issues, but tougher issues, systemic racism, police brutality. But it's a balance of humor and that that's in and sometimes the absurd and sometimes like, you know, science fiction elements and so on. And, and this work specifically, you know, I say book then, you know, it's really funny and relatable to a 40 year old such as myself 40 old black man, such as myself. The, you know, alternate MLK speech, I was laughing at work and someone was like, you good. I was like, no, yeah, I'm good. Don't worry about it. So, and I guess what I'm getting that is how do you balance sort of, you know, humor with the heavier topics balancing entertainment with, you know, information because, you know, there are several names in here that's like, oh, I wish I knew more about this earlier. I say, oh, Robert's the theme here as we pull up and I was like, yes, yes, New Orleans, Robert, oh, tell me more. So talk a bit about that.

Ben Passmore: Yeah, yeah, it's um, and yeah, I like that you say book then because right this is this been is as I said in the beginning is like, is fully disconnected and disengaged right from from the stuff. And so like that that gives me a lot of opportunities right it forgives a lot of exposition, obviously. And it also lets me voice in certain certain circumstances like a bit of detraction, either from what my father is saying or at least voicing a certain degree of skepticism that I think is fairly common, you know, with with the humor, I think, I think the obvious sort of landmine is that it's going to come off disrespectful. And I wanted to be really, really careful about that. So I think my general rule with with things that were jokes, things that would or at least would read as jokes is would be, you know, in my introducing, say a contradiction in a in a lighter way.

Right. Something that I want people to sort of like think about that won't necessarily undercut the importance of the thing that's being talked about. Other things I wanted to. I wanted some of these things like that jokes just sort of wrote themselves because, you know, as I said before, we're living surrounded.

So there is just these there's just an inherent absurdity in just just in our lives. Right. And the fact that we have that we have our own history, we have our own language, we have our own culture that they do not want to acknowledge or or respect at all. And it only is really acknowledged to agree that they can profit from it, you know. So so like that in, for instance, I wanted I wanted, you know, in the in the case of the MLK scene in which, you know, my dad is talking about how no matter what, you know, major civil rights, black civil rights figures would say that there was just a majority of white populations that just thought we were talking about interracial sex.

Yes. And I and I think that in some ways, I think that certain that there are a lot of people, there's a lot of black people in the United States. I think really underestimate how uncomplicated the objections white people have to our liberation are that it's not all these because they'll say they'll say all these things right.

They'd be like, oh, well, that's racist or, you know, we want, you know, meritocracy, but it's really they're just really weirdos and they're just obsessed with whatever sort of like hyper sexualization. So like, you know, for the for the listener, it's MLK is is, you know, performing however you want to say it is I have a dream speech on the mall. There's the crowds and stuff, but I have rewritten it as if a white person is is seeing it hearing it.

So he is just talking about hot interracial sex. And I have to say, it's that specific page was was drawn out of order because I had this idea like kind of earlier on, and it's I removed it and put it back in the book several times. But I for a lot of different reasons.

And it and that had that that that one page because it really is one page it was worth to rework several times. But I think that in that example, it's the the humor has a specific function in a way that I think if I just explained it, it wouldn't have the same impact. So that's generally my rule for when I'm being funny.

Rob Lee: That's good. That's good. And it hits. And, you know, again, it just it was just like so spot on. And, you know, there are other instances that pop up that, you know, just like one off that you're saying it should have points out that I mean, this is a little weird, right? This is this is weird or even this notion where something else where another funeral.

Yeah, this is gonna be depressing. I was like, huh, I was like, I said this, I said this and sort of sort of that. And I want to I want to ask about sort of like choices in terms of, you know, illustration because, you know, definitely. I appreciate the sort of the limited.

And I think very intentional, especially with looking at some of your social media posts recently, limited color palette, which I think is really cool. I think it's just like it's three maybe four. And I think the book keeps a consistent like visual language, but there are these shifts like I think about a side of flashback. I think about Robert F. Williams, like the sort of movie theater sequence and they fit the period. It's like the style like the book has its own style.

And then when it's these these points where we're doing a flashback or we're doing something that's within this something like tucked away, the style changes to accommodate to fit. So talk about those choices.

Ben Passmore: Yeah, I think everyone nerdy right there, by the way. No, no, I'm right there with you. I'm a nerd. We're arguably the same kind of nerd. I agree. Yeah, so I mean, I think I think we're, I think we all know that a lot of the visual grammar of the flashback is black and white and not not even just black and white. It's gray tone, right?

It's tone to gray. The book when when originally kids, you know, and again, this is some of the unartistic considerations that come up. You know, the publisher wanted to do just literally black and white, you know, in the white of the page.

But, you know, and in some ways the book would have been turned in much earlier on time. Had I stuck with that, but I do I do like a limited palette. In sports as hell that one was black, white and orange. I like the challenge. I like the challenge of making, you know, a limited color palette, then and you know, accommodate lots of different vibes. So with this, I think I wanted to because it's black and it's white and it's I think three or four tones gray and then it's this some people call it pink, but it's I would say it's more of a coral red.

It's writing this line. And, you know, I think some of that has to do with the fact that red is is it co-op. It co-op the page really, really easily and had it been more red, I think people's eyes would have been sore within the, you know, the first quarter of the page. So but that gave me a lot of tools to, as you said, change the tone, sort of like switch the vibe of the bit. I like the I like that that was enough tools for me to like sort of communicate when the media itself changed at certain points were literally reading a newspaper. Or as you said, we're watching a 1950s propaganda cartoon about Robert F. So yeah, I I all these all these colors give me or all these tones rather give me a lot of leeway to sort of like depict these different things. And the red the red is is is really great because it's often a, you know, it's sort of like a highway almost for your eyes to go.

Or it's it immediately tells you that where we are has changed or like, you know, towards the end of the book, you know, sort of a somber period and then hope now the prison's on fire now there's a prison. And all I had to really do was just change the color from a from a dark gray to a red. And yeah, I also I did something different with this in that I changed my drawing style based off of the POV, which I think you mentioned a few times.

I, other than just sort of like flexing that I can draw different ways. I think I think something that I wanted to do in the book was have an inside conversation sort of outside, not really for its own sake. But I think something that worries me about my own career and the way that people engage with political content.

Now is that people are often looking for the answer to a topic to a question to a problem. And I didn't want anyone to read my book, or I didn't want anyone to walk away from my book being like, well, that's all I need to know about, you know, such and such person or or even, you know, say, because there will be a lot of white people to read this book. But on the question of black liberation, this is all I need to know. I wanted people to understand that for most of the book, it's my father's specific point of view. And so like at a certain point, kind of kind of early on, even I think it's before the midway through the book, we're learning about a soda from other people from like, maybe Mallory, who was a comrade of Robert F. Williams, and Muhammad Ahmad, who was one of the founders of Revolution Action Movement, which was sort of like a precursor to the panthers that people don't know about. So they each sort of present to me in the book, different sort of snapshots of the side of life. And those are drawn in different drawing styles. And I think it's one of the many ways that I want to sort of want to remind or sort of show the reader it's like, this could have this book could have looked totally different based off of the point of view of the person telling the story. Because it is a story, right? It's something that I do want people to walk away from the book feeling a desire to pick up this tradition. But within that, I think what has always existed is a desire is a desire is a desire for people to seek knowledge and to to have a high standard when it comes to inquiry. You know, you okay, so, you know, I've read this thing now let me read now let me read some people's contemporaries, you know, which I which I think is different from the sort of like pseudo like, let's hear from all sides like I'm not. I'm not interested in objective truth.

I don't think it exists. What I'm what I'm mostly saying is that, you know, people will share Fred Hampton clips all day, but they won't. They won't have any sort of interest in reading other rank and file members of his answer chapter, what they had to say, or even about the same thing, and that that leaves us intellectually very poor and makes inputs in a position where we I don't think we're really learning anything because we're just too busy generating people and then miming it.

Rob Lee: See, here's the thing, you know, I got I got a saying earlier when we first started when I when I let the guest cook. Pretty much my whole last question you just answered there. But I'd be remiss not to mention sort of that that one part in there that's included in the question and it aligns with what you just finished in there. I think sort of especially now with how things have gone in terms of something sanitized, you know, MIDI get getting rid of sort of having, you know, pieces of work like this, you know, having sort of what you also include in there that that sort of reading list that doubles down on here, go look for yourself. This is what I've checked out.

And this is what I read. Maybe you should read this as a jumping off point, not just you want to take everything from me. I just did a comic, you know, I just did a book or have you. It's a good book and it works and all that good stuff. But you should start here and then build out from there and then find sort of your sense of truth and your your your research through your lens. And I think that that's a really great, you know, I want to get your your thinking in there, but just from my perspective as as a reader and someone who's learned a lot from this and the like week and a half I've been reading it that that seeing the the reading list there was really cool. Word.

Ben Passmore: Yeah, I'm happy to hear that. I think I felt not complicated about sharing at least a lot of the material that I that I was drawing from. But I think I struggled with figuring out what my book was ultimately going to be to the world.

You know, I heard I made it as just a product of a singular vision. It's a comic book, right? But I think in some ways because of what is happening now, which is often what is often happening, right?

It's sort of like invisibilization, suppression, right? Of of of our history of our thought. I thought, well, okay, should I have footnotes? You know, should I have you know, should I have the the difference sort of should this work on a standard of a piece, you know, that maybe an academic would make. And I certainly could do that.

But I also thought or something that I that I that I came to realize was that I'm a cartoonist. I'm not a historian. I'm not an academic.

I don't even I was never even trained to do research. It's just something that I have a bit of a skill at because of my first and foremost, because of my history is that quote unquote, comics journalist. But really even more so because I have just been reading radical books since I was a teenager.

And I've been fortunate to be in a political milieu in which reading and discussion and, you know, like counterargument are just a part of my regular life. So, so yeah, I went back before and there were certainly, you know, every every time you were going to publish or there is a page count is in the contract. And if you want to add things that becomes a negotiation in the same way that everything else is and what we landed on with this reading list. And I think, you know, some people have asked me about the ending, which which you will see and and their sort of interpretation of of of my choices at the end to be, you know, maybe a de-escalation from this tradition of arms or whatever. And I think a lot of times that has to do with, I think the insecurity that comes up in people when they're interfacing with unapologetic revolutionary feeling, you know, like I don't the question of whether or not we should be continuing to fight for liberation in a literal way is not is not a debate for me. But that's also not really what the book is about. Like the book is about the love of a tradition and also the love of like this information, these books, like I very intentional introduce my father with these shopping bags filled with books that I as a character am totally disinterested in, which is a deep, a very common response, right? You see a man, you see a man with work gloves for no reason in a dashiki walking up with a bunch of ratty books.

You're like, you see this nigga come in, you know, like we've all seen this man and we are not particularly going to be respectful, probably, but we're not interested in just standing there and listen to what he has to say. So I think for me, I really wanted people to rethink that, you know, I mean, to rethink what that you know what prior generations have to tell us and to get excited about a body of work that like, I think we're very, very fortunate. George Jackson, great to read, you know what I mean, like a Mari Obedelli, who I feel like I treat a little poorly in the book, an amazing writer, like we, we're not going to be doing that. We fortunately have a Sada Shakur, amazing books and Ethan Shakur and both his autobiography is amazing, but he also wrote this book called Struggle Forward in which he like, he writes like takedowns of other formations he doesn't agree with.

Very funny, very funny man. So we're very, very fortunate to have a lot of really great material. It's just that people don't know what to look for. So I wanted, so I selected a bunch of readings that is, as you said, just a starting point that I think are good demonstrations of this tradition. So, you know, a lot of these things may be one or three with each other that are also just like a lot of fun to read.

Rob Lee: Yeah, it's, and thank you. I think it's one of those things and I'm going to hit you with the rapid fire questions in a moment, but I think it's one of those things when I like to be immersed, I like to be fully dipped. So, like, you know, some of the stuff that I have in my reading list right now is so crazy. I'm looking at this. I usually have audio books and sort of the size of your book is kind of hard. So I have it in my like backpack sometimes I'm like, yo, I'm looking wild.

I have like wild materials on me. I have like either the audio book on sort of like just different false, these different like sort of socialist books and just different things of, hey, this was not that long ago and this stuff then and we're revisiting it now. And then sort of the dessert, if you will, is your book. I'm like, yo, I am going to have an attitude most of the day.

Speaker 3: But it's a good feeling and it's a feeling that it inspires, inspires thinking and just like bringing it up and then also wanting to share it, but sharing a way that is accessible to folks and not in this sort of, you know, they see him, they see coming from a while away.

So that's going to be me in the future, I think I would have to go up here or something and looking at getting the dashiki. You got to figure out which one and think of something with ox blood.

Ben Passmore: That's a good color. See if you're if you're light bright like me, there's just a whole tone for that as a question, you know, and then I'm going to look like Jadena if I'm not careful. So I wish I had your problem.

Rob Lee: I will send you I have a boy also named Greg, who's about your collection. He went to Black Panther when it first dropped and he had like a yellow and blue dashiki. I was like, what are you a member of the Golden State Warriors? You're having that look like every player on the team. What's happening?

And he's those of the acts. I was like, I hate everything here. I was like, I hate everything I'm saying. I was like, now when I watch this movie at the very end of its run because of you, sir.

Ben Passmore: That's that inner community violence, but you got to you can't be this tail in where where it flew. That is that's that's that's day one stuff.

Rob Lee: Yeah, that's 100% 100%. I like the I think it's a picture of the Muhammad Ali and he has like the Hezboergeny 101. I was like, that's that's the one. I got a couple of rapid fire questions for you. I've been adding to them and then removed the door with you. Just like, hmm, that's going to be a different version of this.

I took this out, put this in. It's like I'm working on a speech here. So as I tell people at time, don't overthink these, you know, whatever's the first thing that kind of comes to mind. I'm going to start off with a softball. What's your favorite movie?

Ben Passmore: Oh, God. They clone Tyrone. Nice. Recency bias, but but yeah.

Rob Lee: It's a good one. I feel like they're putting black people in these like droids, the little robot boxes that are colleges. I mean, I've seen a few that are named DeAndre and like, what's happening? Oh, Lord, you know exactly what's happening. I mean, look, look, man. So time travel is a thing that's in, you know, black arms. What is your favorite time travel story?

Ben Passmore: My favorite time travel story. Oh, man. I think I hate all of them. Nice. I like it. I do really like Ursa Le Guin. I think it's cradle of heaven. Where I think a character changes reality every single time they go to sleep and dream. So it's not a time travel. But but things are, I like, I like the the it's that duality of powerlessness and like complete. Literally power over the universe. But it's a really compelling story.

Rob Lee: I got two more. Excluding what I consider to be the norms keys, phone, wallet, name an item you never leave home without.

Ben Passmore: These days, I always keep my watch on me because I like I'm working on not having my phone when I leave the house as often as possible. Just on some just some straight energy, deep plug stuff. And I think the book I was talking about is called Lays of Heaven. Okay. Yeah.

Rob Lee: I just throw my out there. I think I'm going to stop bringing the phone to but I'm always plugged in. I'm always listening to something. So it's like, yeah, there's a podcast there. It's like I'm researching. I'm always plugged in. So I got to figure that out.

So airplane mode. I don't know. But yeah, I think being unplugged, especially with some of the stuff I've learned recently in the in shitification book.

That's worth taking a look at. But I usually, and I got this from you. Actually, I usually have a Shicey in my bag somewhere or like you can check it. I was like, hmm, I have four of these.

It's got Dan Benzful. I was like, why do I have this on me? I'm like going in.

I got like wing tips on and like a nice shirt. And it's like your Shicey just fall out of here. You see mask is like literally on the floor. Yeah.

Speaker 3: Yeah. If you stay ready, you don't have to get ready. Right. That's a good point. Okay.

Rob Lee: This is the last one and this is definitely a callback. What is an alternative to cocoa butter condensation?

Speaker 3: We got, we got a.

Rob Lee: Yeah. I was holding on to that. I was like, all right, I'm going to ask. I circled it. Right. When I read it, I was like,

Speaker 3: this guy, what is the opposite of like, what's the positive with the positive alternative to it?

Rob Lee: It's like, I can't quite get the name brand. The Palmer's joined or the more.

Ben Passmore: But it kind of, so you're imagining a product. I don't know.

Rob Lee: But it's like, you know, you're talking to a guy that came up with a fake ad for big daddy cane sugar. Ain't no half stepping when it comes to flavor.

Speaker 3: That's what I can't. Oh, that's good. That's good.

Ben Passmore: See, this is, I'm a cartoonist, not a comedian. So it's hard sometimes for me to, for you to come up with something quick. Shave butter sincerity. No, that's terrible. That's terrible. That's dry, dry, dry, Q. There's something there. This is something. Shave butter bureaucracy. Oh, there we go. There we go. The worst.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Ben Passmore: Moisturizing. For your dry conversation. Right. For your dry, just say, Shave butter bureaucracy. It does have a nice, that has a nice pop to it though. Oh, the marketing guy. Yeah. I would definitely stay dry. If that was my only option.

Rob Lee: So, so there we have it. We got the whole thing. We got the whole pot.

Ben Passmore: We did it. Okay. We did it.

Rob Lee: So it needs to be final moments. You know, with this one thing I want to do, well, two things I want to do. One, I want to thank you for being on the pod. You're the last episode of the season. So we're closing out the season with you and I couldn't think of anyone better to do it with, frankly. And secondly, I want to invite and encourage you to share with the listeners.

Just anything you want to share in these final moments, the social media and all of that stuff, shameless plugs will have you, but anything you want to share in these final moments, the floor is yours.

Ben Passmore: Oh, thank you. And thanks for having me. It's, it's, yeah, it's, it's great to be able to talk about this, frankly. Sometimes, you know, when talking about a book, I feel like the guardrails are tight because, you know, I'm, I'm speaking outside of the community. So it's nice to be able to talk to a friend. Social, I need to change them, but, but it's, it's Daiglowe hole or wow, Ben, wow on Instagram. Yeah. So that's why I got to change it. And Daiglowe hole on, on Patreon, I got a, I got a monthly comic I do on there.

It's been passed more on Blue Sky. Um, general, general musings, I think, I think I like everyone else and watching everything that's happening in the country, but on the street level, you know, secret police going on and snatching people, you know, we were just seeing videos of them running up Canal Street, trying to snatch people. And I just, I just want to encourage people to, to not sort of fall into the pseudo narrative around antifa that like, they kind of the no king folks have been doing where they're saying that antifa is simply just anyone who doesn't like fascism, including like the soldiers in a world war two. Um, you should, you should trust that there's always like an actual story of resistance.

Um, Gordon Hill, I've been reading Gordon Hill's, um, any fascist book recently, his graphic novel that talks about that history. Um, and I think that when we read about these things, um, it gives us a lot of courage because they are, um, people just like us, um, who did the best they could in their time. Um, and that the people in power want us to wait for a savior, you know, uh, but we are really the ones we're waiting for. Uh, and I just want to reassure people of that.

Rob Lee: And there you have it folks. I want to again thank Ben Passmore for coming onto the podcast and spending some time with me, give us some background on his latest work, Black Arms to Hold You Up. And for Ben Passmore, I am Rob Lee saying that there's art, culture, and community in and around your neck of the woods. You just have to look for it. Thank you.