Welcome to The Truth in Us Art, your source for conversations that matter, conversations at the intersection of arts, culture, and community. I am your host, Rob Lee. Thank you so much for joining me. Today, we're running it back. Well, well, sorta.
Rob Lee:You may recall previously, I had the privilege of interviewing Amy Cavanaugh from Maryland Art Place, and I'm welcoming my next guest and we're here actually at Maryland Art Place. My next guest is a mixed media artist whose work examines the patriarchy, gender, and the invisibility of female labor. She is also the exhibition and program director at Maryland Art Place MAP, where she oversees MAP's exhibitions and programming. Please welcome Caitlin Gill. Welcome to the podcast.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):So I am the exhibitions director for Maryland Art Place. I've been here for about 6 years, and I'm also the MSAC Arts Directory, manager. So I manage all the directory content for the state of Maryland. That's a contractor position and role here. And then on top of that, I'm an interdisciplinary artist.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):Kinda I still consider myself emergent, and then in addition to that, I also run an all female arts collective called the Gossip Girl Collective and we just opened a gallery on the 3rd floor here at MAPS, so we're a tenant of MAPS, called XOXO Gallery.
Rob Lee:Nice. Yeah. And we're gonna dive back into that a bit more.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):Oh, good.
Rob Lee:So thank you for teasing it. Yeah. A little bit. So at this very moment, we're recording this as it was starting to snow when I came in here.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):I know. It was beautiful.
Rob Lee:So what what keeps you busy at this very moment? What's keeping you busy? You mentioned many things there, but what's that one that's just like, alright. This is taking 85% of the the tide that I have.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):Oh, god. Well, MAP has entered into a strategic planning, time. So we kind of are slower here. We're a bit quieter. We're getting our elevator modernized, so, which is perfect timing because we can use the gallery for all of that overflow storage of all the elevator parts.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):I'm sure you saw when you came in. So because of that, I have had an opportunity to kind of focus on my art practice a little bit more and I have an upcoming exhibition at Towson. So I am working on building frames and I just produced like 15 small sculptures over the course of, like, a week. So that's been brutal. Yeah.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):So I would say that. And then, the gallery or the collective has a show coming up in Philly, so I'm producing work for that. And then I also have a show in Mexico City. I'm only participating, like, including, I mean, 1 or 2 works. And then I have another show at the Baltimore Art Crit Group, in February.
Rob Lee:Wow.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):Yeah. So art.
Rob Lee:So art is art right now.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):Yeah. Art art is popping off.
Rob Lee:Yeah. So what is the the fuel? And it it seems like it's it seems like it might be a similar sort of question as to the the drive we'll have you around it. Around, like, what drives you, what motivates you, like, right now, like, some people may say and but the themes of what this season's about as I was, you know, touching on before we got started. Mhmm.
Rob Lee:I'm curious about sort of attrition and folks, like, getting deeper into it and kind of improving upon previous interviews. And you're in that technical space of interview Amy before Mhmm. From from MAP, but interviewing you now. And we're here at MAP, so it's almost a full circle thing. But the thing that kinda motivates and and drives with this series of interviews for this year is about is catching up with folks, seeing where they're at within their careers.
Rob Lee:So what is what is what is driving what is driving you as far as, like, you maybe thematically what's coming up in the work that you're, you know, working on? Like, you said sculptures and so on.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):So I a lot of my work is about the female experience or, like, my experience as female. So it can be kinda heavily nuanced if I'm being honest. Like, some of it, like, the Roadkill series, which will be at Towson, is about being an empath and like essentially it's called like the Runneth Over series because like my cup runneth over is kind of the pair like the joke I'm or what's the word? Pun that I'm using Sure. In that work.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):So it's a bunch of roadkill and essentially it's like empathy will kill you because it's like you're killing with kindness. Right? Like you're just constantly giving so much of yourself to other people to the point where it's like you're not, you know, in my situation. I'm not like meeting my basic needs but I'm like helping my friends move or something to that effect. I do think kindness is a pyramid scheme.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):So like it's
Rob Lee:It's good. It's good.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):So I'm kind of like, you know, tackling that. And a lot of the female identity is about domestic labor and emotional labor and also, you know, being that person, the compassionate caregiving. Our worth is kind of entangled in all that, our mesh and all of that. So that's what my work kind of unpacks. The chicken series for example, which is like hybrid female chicken women, is more about the male gaze and the boys will be boys mentality and how like, okay, yes, they are nudes, but they're also they have chicken appendages to include their heads.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):So it's like if you can't control yourself because a woman's dressed inappropriately or she, for whatever reason, is undressed, then can you control yourself if it had a chicken head? Right? Like it's like it's kind of like addressing those harder questions but with humor. That's kind of my whole vibe. So yeah, I think it just in my own nuanced way, I'm kind of just dealing with these like internal dialogues and challenging those narratives, or even just creating space to have the conversation either with the audience or with myself.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):Okay. My new work, so the work for Towson is about natural history base. So the work is included as the run at the over series, but also I do, some sculptures. So like this is some mushroom sculptures that I do. Some of my work is just playful.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):It's like an opportunity for me to like palate cleanse because I do think my work is pretty politically charged and emotionally charged. So, I need that creativity, just like safe space to just kind of make things that I enjoy making so I can go back to doing more labor intensive. And by labor intensive, I mean like emotionally labor intensive work. So, that's that. Other things that I'm working on, ideally, I'd like to move into a 3 d direction and create chicken women that are life size.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):I applied for Rubies. If they hear this, give me the money. But just kidding. So I want to make life size sculptures of those pieces. I'm really interested in sculpture.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):My background is in painting, but I'd love to get more 3 d work in my inventory. So ideally moving in that direction.
Rob Lee:Yeah. I think, you know, there's a few things. And thank you. Yeah. There's a few things I wanna touch on.
Rob Lee:Sure. One, the humor piece. Yeah. I think that it's I think that's funny. Humor is funny.
Rob Lee:So as a person that's, my partner is an empath, right?
Caitlin Gill (MAP):Oh, yeah.
Rob Lee:And I do too many puns, right, everything is a bit with me that she's like, are you done? Yeah. You have more, I'm sure you have more. And it popped up in one of her, this idea of a pun and sort of turn of phrase popped up in her creative practice. Like, she's doing a comic, she's writing one.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):Mhmm.
Rob Lee:And it's, about podcasters that are cats.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):Oh my god, can I come?
Rob Lee:I'll I'll send you the link to it. Yeah.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):Does she need cats to act on it? Because I have 2 torties that are ready and able.
Rob Lee:We just got rid of a tortie. Well, we not got rid of got rid of it. Just gave it to one of our relatives. Yeah. Yeah.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):And The tortitude is real.
Rob Lee:She's a character in the comics, so yes. So, but the concept of herding cats Yeah. Is what the podcast is around. It's like, you know, podcasters trying to come together and come together on an idea, It's like herding cats, and just the fact that the podcast is a cat, it's just it's a pun that just keeps on delivering. And, because I've been in that sort of space, this space for like 16 years, I'm like, yeah, we should have the podcasts, if you will, do a ad for, like, a dog company.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):Oh my god. I'm dead.
Rob Lee:It's it's so bad. I'm obsessed. But it's it's it's really it's hard. It drives. I just throw out just ideas because, you know, subject matter expert, I suppose.
Rob Lee:But sort of someone who's an empath. So having the, you know, seeing seeing what I engage in and doing this sort of stuff, like being able to turn it on and just be dead afterwards, it's a big, dump emotionally and energy wise.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):100%.
Rob Lee:So, you know, her seeing that and being able to observe it and as an empath feel that, right? Yeah. It's, it's almost like, yeah, you're really speaking the truth here in this, you know, goofy comic about cats. The other thing that I thought was kind of, kind of the palate cleanser you were touching on. As far as, like, having work that's, like, heavy and work that is definitely charged in a specific direction and touching on topics and themes that are, you know, like, look, this is what I feel.
Rob Lee:This is what I've experienced. Mhmm. People people wanna sanitize cleaned version of it. And I find that in doing this podcast, I was asked to share the story. Right?
Caitlin Gill (MAP):Yeah.
Rob Lee:On multiple occasions. Oh, take all the stuff out about this person, this person, this person. I'm like, so clean up the story.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):Mhmm.
Rob Lee:For who? Yeah. Is it is it not the story? And I'll say in doing well over 800 episodes at this point Wow.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):Yeah. Amazing.
Rob Lee:Well, thank you. Sometimes I have to, still within the practice, do something that's just kind of goofy and fun.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):Yeah.
Rob Lee:So I might have a conversation with someone. I try to make this as open as possible. It's not like, hey, only answer these questions. So, like, this is a guide more than anything else. But I do another podcast outside of it just so I feel like, hey, I'm doing something funny that's low energy but still still good.
Rob Lee:I do a movie review podcast in addition to doing this. So I noticed at a point when I was really heavy in it doing, like, 6, 7 interviews in a day sometimes. I'm like, yeah, I just wanna watch a movie and then talk with my friends about this movie on a podcast. And that was my palate cleanser for that. So I think it's important to have those.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):Yeah. Me too. I think it keeps the creativity flowing in a way that like I think we were talking about it. I had a lunch with Souncy, earlier. I was like, People think that making art is fun.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):And it is. Don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to say I don't enjoy creating. But it's also really stressful and it becomes when you become an artist, it becomes your job. It's not like you're creating because you're just like, I have an idea.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):I'm gonna go in the studio and I'm gonna fully realize this idea. It's gonna be perfect and I'm gonna have another stroke of genius in 3 to 6 weeks. It's like no. I have to like sit down and produce and I have to produce a lot and have to do it under a tight deadline in my spare time which I'm sure you've gathered I don't have much of. And then, you know, also to like frame it, ship it, apply for opportunities, pay all the submission fees to apply for the opportunities, field all the rejection letters, then like when you get accepted like transport it, you know, install it on occasion.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):It's just like it's a lot of work. It's a labor of love. Everything I do is a labor of love. But, I think speaking about how it is a practice for a reason and that's because it's not just a creative process after a certain point. It becomes almost a disciplined I don't want to say chore because that's not the right word, but task management.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):It's exhausting at times. I love it. Whoever is listening, I love making art but it's a lot of work. Similar to I'm sure you can relate, like doing podcasts, it's like you love doing it, but of course, it's exhaust. I mean
Rob Lee:It can be.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):It can be exhausting.
Rob Lee:Yeah. When you're, you know, this is my thing. This is the this is the thing I have. I'm pointing at my mouth as I say this. Yeah.
Rob Lee:But when it's that that issue where it's just like, you were touching on her earlier, you have like a hand issue.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):Yeah. I'd stab myself in my hand with my pocket knife, and I cut my tendon and nerve. Isn't that exciting? Yeah. Pocket knife, literacy, apparently, I cannot I have to take it off my resume.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):Oh, it's a bummer.
Rob Lee:I I'm waiting for the series of this is my pocket knife series. It's like I just did it with the hand with the injury.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):Oh my god. I should. I've been thinking a lot about my hands because, like, I use them so much in my practice, and how integral they are. But also too, I do a lot of body parts, either animal or other. It would be interesting to see how that all comes out later in my work.
Rob Lee:Sure. Yeah. So talk about sort of the the the disciplines or the the the types of techniques you're working in. I see printmaking. I see fiber arts.
Rob Lee:You touched on working 3 d. Right? Yeah. And and moving towards that direction. So why or what how did you arrive at, like, this is of interest to execute here and what is pulling you towards sort of 3 d now?
Caitlin Gill (MAP):That's a great question. So I do think I am, like, very much of an interdisciplinary artist. I kinda get bored with one material. I just don't feel like it achieves everything that I want it to and I'm really interested in texture. And I feel like as a result, collage was kind of a natural progression for me.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):I still consider all my work, most of it, paintings unless it's 3 d because, I feel like I paint with paper or I paint with fabric or whatever material I'm using. I feel like I apply it in a painterly way. So I don't know how it really progressed. I wish I had the timeline in my head but it was just like it just evolved. It went from kind of the backgrounds where this hodgepodge of things and then the focal point was typically like a really well rendered painting.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):Then I went to a residency, Chad North, up in the Hudson Valley and Brigitte was like, What if you just did white backgrounds? I remember just strung her off. I was like, Absolutely not. Do you not understand my work? You know?
Caitlin Gill (MAP):So ego driven. I got back and then like, you know, of course I think it's my idea, right? I'm like, I'm going to do a white back. I don't know. I'm such a brat.
Rob Lee:It just popped in my head when I did it. It just
Caitlin Gill (MAP):popped in my head. I'm such a genius, low key. Anyway, so I ended up doing it. She commented on my work because I got into a show in New York. She commented on the post and she was like, I was like, Thanks for the white background tip, girl, homie.
Rob Lee:She's like, I'll keep that credit.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):Thanks. Right? Then on the label, it's my little line item like Brigitte's idea. No. I mean, yeah.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):It it just it just happens. I think feedback is always important even if we're not ready for it. Like, I think that's the lesson. Right? Like, it's like she had a great idea.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):I just wasn't ready to hear it. But when I did, it transformed my work entirely.
Rob Lee:Makes sense. Yeah. So is there a pull right now, or or drive right now? And I asked this because I'm as I was, you know, kinda touching on a little bit earlier, I didn't go too too far into it. You know, I've heard on on on and on from folks even in doing the teaching thing in the last year that hey, you should engage in video.
Rob Lee:And I'm like, video as a whole, and I'm thinking all the reasons why Mhmm. Not, right? And also kind of being very I'm a I'm an audio first guy, that is my lane. I don't have to face for video. So, you know, audio is my my lane.
Rob Lee:Right? So in thinking about it, sort of what the next stage and being more oriented around media versus purely audio, I'm like, okay, cool. Let's at least explore that a bit. But I've heard it for years beforehand, kind of as you were touching off, I'm like, I don't know if that was the time I should have heard it. Or when folks give me sort of the, I like when I hear something I've thought.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):Yeah. But
Rob Lee:I've never said it out.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):Yes. Oh my god.
Rob Lee:I I had a guest, I had Ducky Dynamo on and she was just like, you're just kind of doing an Anthony Bourdain thing, but with light artists and he was like a black nerd. I was like, you said it, you said the thing. That's the big
Caitlin Gill (MAP):thing for years. That's the fact. Yeah. I love Anthony Bourdain.
Rob Lee:So as far as the the the move towards, 3 d
Caitlin Gill (MAP):Yeah.
Rob Lee:Was there a moment there or it's just something else? Just like, I wanna explore this that you you're you're looking at it from that perspective.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):I mean, that's yeah. I think it's it's so hard articulate, right? Because it's like it's all in your head and I've never had to speak it to anyone like why or how like
Rob Lee:why
Caitlin Gill (MAP):I'm interested in 3 d. But I think my work is very relief based and I think I'm always looking for more layers and more layers and more layers. And at some point, like, hanging becomes an issue or shipping becomes an issue because like I use pressed flowers and things like that. And I think sculpture has been like a natural progression because it has the opportunity to use so many different types of media like I'm interested in plaster and silicone and I'm interested in clay and and I can still work with paper and fiber in a sculptural capacity. So I think it's just like I feel limited maybe is the right word on 2 d and I feel like that I almost feel like these paintings have taken on to me more of a sketching Yeah.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):Quality where I feel like they're just ideas that need to be articulated in 3 d. Because I've never done sculpture and I'm not necessarily nervous or but maybe insecure is the right word at first to kind of move in that direction. I think we all have imposter syndrome to some degree. Yeah. So, yeah.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):I think it's been holding me back a bit. Taking that leap into fully going into sculpture. But I'm kind of using this as like my New Year's resolution, but don't hold me to it because like in a year, if you're like, Caitlin, how did it go? And I'm just like, what? I didn't do it, you know.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):But ideally
Rob Lee:Look, I'm an accountability partner for a food float. So I'm like just that text message comes over. So you said it in this episode that this minute
Caitlin Gill (MAP):Maybe I need that. I'm in a residency online and it's been told me accountable, but I end up just starting projects and not finishing it because I'm just like, I don't know. So maybe this is the perfect opportunity to be held accountable, but
Rob Lee:Just play this one audio clip just snitching once a week. Yeah.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):In my sleep. Yeah. Just fall asleep to it.
Rob Lee:It's the worst version of ASMR.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):Oh my God. It's like your goals. Not your goals. God, that is like anxiety inducing.
Rob Lee:100 of the times.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):I'm here for it though. I love I'm a total self sabotage. I was like
Rob Lee:But I but I think in going back through and and revisiting, you know, some of these interviews because I make it a point to try not to ask the same question, or if I'm asking the same question there's an intent to it. Like, let's say if it's something that's a little, like, juicy, and they may have had a take, you know, the guest may have had a take, let's say 5 years ago, and now it's like, I have a completely different definition of it now. So when we eventually get back to you coming back on this podcast, this is the technically your first time. Yeah.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):I know. I'm excited.
Rob Lee:So I gotta ask you this, what is your relationship with the word artist?
Caitlin Gill (MAP):Isn't everyone's complicated? Does anybody answer that? I feel like it totally encapsulates my identity. It's like, I don't know. I feel like when you're not producing, everyone's just freaking out like you are.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):Every artist I know when they're not producing is freaking out. So I feel like it's like I think it took me a long time to kind of heal my relationship with my work. I took a 10 year break. Like I didn't paint for 10 years.
Rob Lee:Oh, wow.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):I was in an abusive marriage and I feel like that just like sucked my soul out of me and I feel like my work was a way for me to process. It's kind of therapeutic. So, and I don't think I was processing much of anything during that time. But, you know, I hit the ground running and I also got to force Loki. So like, you know, and I've produced a lot of work since then.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):But during that 10 year gap, would I have identified as an artist? Probably not. And I think I do identify as an artist but I almost feel like I feel like I'm more of an exhibitions director first, artist second, than artist first, exhibition director second. Reconciling that in perpetuity has been hard because it's like you're creating opportunities or you're creating art and it's hard to toggle those two tasks. But, yeah, I mean, I love being creative.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):I think it's necessary for me to produce work because it's again a way for me to process a lot of things. And if I'm not making then my mental health tends to be lower. So it's almost hard because I feel like artist sounds so like it's a choice and I don't know if it was a choice for me. I feel like it was never an option not to make work.
Rob Lee:Yeah. I mean, I always go into these these different books. Like, I would listen to the Austin Kleon audiobooks, The Death of the Artist, Weighing the Residwitz. That's always been a part of it over those 5 years. And just kind of exploring things and thinking about, you know, what I do and I I find that, you know, the relationship is always kind of odd with that terminology and sort of the identification with it.
Rob Lee:Kind of similar to, to like, chefs at times. You have some people cook really well and it's like, I don't use the term chef.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):Yeah.
Rob Lee:And I find that when I was very young, I wanted to be a comic book artist. That's what I wanted to do.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):That's so cool.
Rob Lee:And I had to kind of reconcile with not that not happening, you know, just and and being good with it. Right?
Caitlin Gill (MAP):It can still happen.
Rob Lee:Well, I I I approach it in a different way. In doing this, I went into writing a comic for in hiring artists to just draw it. So I'm still able to satisfy that sort of sort of goal. So I think what I'm kind of touching on is in the 35 plus years since this initial inclination to draw cartoon characters and try to draw X men, that's what I was doing as a kid, I've been able to dabble with different things creatively that caught my interest. So from, you know, so it wasn't a choice I suppose, or it was always just there, from doing illustration and it's like that served its sort of point, right, in thinking that that's the direction I was gonna go.
Rob Lee:And then moving into, I wanna write for a bit, I wanna do poetry. And so, football body type, but I'm writing poetry, it's like I'm your bard, and it's like what are you gonna do, like put together a hyacinthameter or something, what are you gonna do, tackle? Specifically for you, I will find them. And then, but I I think, and I've touched on this before in this pod, that, you know, playing with audio, you know, as far as figuring it out, just exploring, Finding a little handy recorder, finding a dubbing machine and doing rhymes on there. I started just grabbing a microphone and I would ask my classmates, in kind of interview style, with the mic that was the beginning of doing podcasting.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):That's so cool.
Rob Lee:And I could see it. I could see those sort of threads there, so it was like, it's storytelling Yeah. Throughout, whether it be, hey, you know, what is this character doing in this comic, to what is my classmate doing, to what is this talented artist doing.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):That's really cool.
Rob Lee:Yeah. Thank you. That's that's the trajectory. I'm telling that story now to make it seem like it's well composed.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):It's No. I mean, it's never linear. Right? Yeah. Like normalize it.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):I feel like time isn't linear. Like Life isn't linear. We just project that onto life, but it doesn't track. It's not. It's like a bunch of different opportunities that kind of coalesce and then you make a decision.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):Red pill or blue pill?
Rob Lee:I I was gonna say something about a flat circle, don't I?
Caitlin Gill (MAP):Not a flat earther. No. I'm just kidding.
Rob Lee:No. No. No. No.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):I am. I'm offended. I'm just kidding.
Rob Lee:I was like, what are we doing? I mean, there's a map at the day job. I'm like, that's wild.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):Prove it.
Rob Lee:That's like, I need to see it. So I wanna talk about MAP a bit, and I wanna talk about, Gossip Girl Collective. So let's let's talk about MAP. And also, the Maryland State Arts Council Arts Directory. So for listeners who aren't familiar, could you share what MAP is and what it's doing for local art community and how your roles contribute to sort of supporting local arts community?
Caitlin Gill (MAP):Sure. So, Maryland Art Place is a 501c3 nonprofit. We're about 40 3 years old. Don't quote me, but I'm pretty sure. It's in Aquarius.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):We did its chart. You're welcome.
Rob Lee:That's great.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):I know. That's great.
Rob Lee:'Tis the season.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):We did. We did. We did this entire astrological chart. We're very compatible.
Rob Lee:This is great. This is great.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):I'll have to share it with you. Anyway, so we do between like 5 7 major exhibitions a year. Ideally, some of you out there are familiar with us. But, if you're not, we do 2 benefits. 1 is under 500 which we recently rebranded to under 2,500 to kind of just create that cost of living.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):You know, establish that like prices are continuing to increase. So like, you know, 50% of the proceeds go towards MAP's annual operating budget. But 50% of $500 is just like not cutting the mustard so we ended up upping it. And then we do out of order which is our annual auction. It's a silent auction benefit which comes up in April.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):This year's theme is Barbarella. That's true. I'm pumped. I don't know. You know Barbarella, right?
Caitlin Gill (MAP):Yeah. Okay. Thank God. I told somebody that today and they were like, Who's that?
Rob Lee:And I
Caitlin Gill (MAP):was like, Stop it.
Rob Lee:For the folks that don't know, hit them.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):Yeah. And it's like, I'm saying it's like, I was like, She's a queer icon. And then they were like, She's queer? And I was like, No. That's not the point.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):That's not how you become a queer icon. We just go around asserting it. Anywho, so yeah. And then we do Youngblood, which is our MFA retrospective exhibition. So me and Amy go around.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):We review all of the thesis exhibitions in the state. And then we curate an up and coming sampling of the work of MFA graduates of that year. So 2025 will be this Youngblood. And then everything else, we used to do the MSAC Triennial. We are, I believe, bringing that back.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):There'll be a couple of other shows but it just is kind of contingent on either we might have an independent curator. Zoey Charles has a solo exhibition here. So we do about a solo exhibition every 2 years, I would say. And then outside of that, we own our building. So we also operate a bar and basement cabaret venue.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):So that will probably be programmed in the spring of 2025.
Rob Lee:Oh, yeah.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):And then the MSAC directory, anyone can become a directory artist. All you have to do is apply. It's super simple. And you can upload as many as 5 to 10 images and PDFs, videos, any subject matter, any medium. And it's free and you can use it as your website if you'd like.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):If you can't afford a domain or something of that nature or just don't want to make that leap or commitment to having your own website. Yeah. It's pretty sick. I would strongly encourage any Maryland resident artist to create a directory profile.
Rob Lee:I believe I have one on there.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):So Oh,
Rob Lee:it's a
Caitlin Gill (MAP):I'm gonna go find it after this.
Rob Lee:It's got an outdated picture. I need to update it. Okay. My face is smaller. Mine I
Caitlin Gill (MAP):have to update mine too. We can do it together. We can do it after this podcast.
Rob Lee:It'd be great. It's just like you have more hair in this picture. I had that happen in an interview. Someone was like, how old are you? I was like, this age.
Rob Lee:It's like, the hairline says that you're a little older. I was like, this, can we be friends with this podcast?
Caitlin Gill (MAP):It's so out of pocket. I can't believe people say that to you.
Rob Lee:That's gonna be the spin off. It's gonna be Patreon only, the out of pocket episodes. Oh, jeez. Here's some of the things I listen to.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):You should do, so we did this solo show for Bonnie Shoop who recently passed away, David Ettland's wife. And she had this book where she followed strangers around and just wrote down one quote. Literally every day would follow people around and just write whatever they said like one sentence and completely like no context or anything. And I read it. I read it.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):It was amazing and I feel like this is what we're moving towards. You need to like just everything that random out of pocket things that people share with you, you just have to like keep keep track of it.
Rob Lee:I might just put down where it was because I I have a pretty good memory when it comes to that, especially when there's a degree of disbursement. Mhmm. It's like, what'd you say to me? Hold on, put file it away. File it away.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):Like literally, like why would anybody say that? You're a safe space.
Rob Lee:And then I have to keep an inventory of like, what did I say to those? Oh, okay. Because
Caitlin Gill (MAP):That's where your comic is.
Rob Lee:This is true. There because there's there's a podcast Rob and then there's a they converge. There's a real life Rob and a podcast Rob. Rob. They intersect.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):I get that. Yeah.
Rob Lee:But there are some times where it's just like, man, he's in that Frisbee wallet.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):I get it. Yeah. There's like customer service Caitlin, and then there's like Caitlin that's just like been pushed one email too many.
Rob Lee:I I I I think I follow both actually.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):If you follow both my Instagram accounts, you're in for a wild ride.
Rob Lee:They it's it's a very interesting tale.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):I was talking to Sony and I was like, do I look like I'm enjoying my life or do I look like I need to be institutionalized? I toe the line on my feet and I acknowledge that. That's why it's private. Only a select few get admission.
Rob Lee:We have a mutual friend. Zoe and I are friends.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):Yeah. I know. Zoe is normally in my shenanigans, but now she's locked down in her new relationship.
Rob Lee:So in in addition to, you know, MAP, Maryland State Arts Council and all, you you found it. Right? Gossip Girl Collective?
Caitlin Gill (MAP):Yes. I founded it. Yeah.
Rob Lee:So what led to it? Well, and how does it align with your vision, you know, as artist and as a leader in the arts community?
Caitlin Gill (MAP):Yeah. I mean, it started off innocent enough. Like, it kind of got it blew up. I think there's just, like, a general need within the community for, like, safe spaces where, like, there's resource sharing and just, like, a general sense of community and support. It started off with like 5 to 7 members, core members and then we eventually like just got we did a new member invite where we like invited people and opened it up and we got a lot of engagement through that and then it's just been like a word-of-mouth thing where people are like, I met this person.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):Can you add them to the email list? And we just do. It's not really like we're out seeking anyone. They kind of find us and it's a really fluid collective. Anyone can come and go at their leisure.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):Essentially with the collective, which is different than the gallery. So the gallery is umbrella under the collective but the gallery was formed by 12 members who have agreed to take on a financial commitment of managing the space. Whereas the Gossip Girl Collective, there's no membership fee or anything and there's really no commitment. We do exhibitions together. So we have one up right now called Brumation at School 33, which if you haven't seen it or if the viewership hasn't seen it, I would encourage them to check it out depending on when this drops.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):But, yeah. And it's just like we'll go and as a group apply for shows and funding and things of that nature. But the XOXO gallery is strictly a curatorial initiative.
Rob Lee:Got it.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):So, we curate shows. Each member gets a 6 week exhibition out of the 12. Each member gets 6 weeks and they can curate whatever they want. That's right. So right now, grit is on view curated by Grace Doyle.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):Prior to that, it was Frosh Week which was curated by Ann Margret. Upcoming, we have an automat collective takeover. We're doing a gallery swap so our work is going to Philly and their work is coming here. And we are open to having like the member can hire a curator or give their space up to a curator. They can jury their own shows.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):They can invite a jury to jury their shows. And it's like whatever you want to do for the 6 weeks, you can. The only like real limitation is that we don't allow solo exhibitions outside of 2 years. Like every 2 years, you can do a solo show in the space, but you can't we can't just keep showing our work over and over because that's not the point of the space.
Rob Lee:Right. Yeah. That makes sense. And I like the the openness there. Like, I've been riding this this sort of idea of I think the best situations happen.
Rob Lee:Or a lot of the good situation. I don't know if they're always the best. But a lot of the good situations happen when folks are allowed to just cook. Yeah. It's just like, if you guys wanna bring a curator and you got it, here.
Rob Lee:Here's the space for this number of weeks and you're able to work within these parameters, but it's not a lot that's there. So that's a really cool opportunity.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):Yeah. And you know, we we pay our rent and then we put in like a a fee that you get back as a stipend for your exhibition. Sure. So like all the money returns to the member. It's like, really we're just like paying to kind of create opportunity in Baltimore.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):That's the goal.
Rob Lee:So. So I got 2 more real questions. Oh. And then we get to these rapid fire questions, which I'm sure you forgot. Because I like to lull people to sleep.
Rob Lee:Hey, we're having
Caitlin Gill (MAP):fun with this. Safe and yeah.
Rob Lee:And then it's like
Caitlin Gill (MAP):And then it's like, no. You're not. Perfect. I thrive in that environment.
Rob Lee:So how do you so I and and I I was touching on this a little bit as it relates to podcasts, and I know it relates to artists. And I know that social media drives a lot of this, but sort of we talk about, like, the market and the different trends that happen. What is your relationship with sort of the market and being in a a space where you're an artist, you're also an an arts advocate, an arts resource, a, you know, arts community, like, leader. What is your relationship with it? Because we always hear about the market.
Rob Lee:It's like, people aren't buying this, or no one's making this, or people are switching their work around. I've had I remember one that was just a damning situation where I had a, young artist who was, in the filmmaking world and just he had a really bad experience. So it's like, I'm done with this, got rid of his camera, and he's just like, I'm just gonna get rid of his, video camera. It's like, I'm just gonna do photography now. Mhmm.
Rob Lee:As a direct response to no one cares about my work, so I'm shifting. And I was just like, you're 22.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):Yeah. Yeah. I don't have a relationship with the market and nobody buys my work. I mean, I've had a couple buyers, That was like when I first started and I feel my work was a little bit more palatable and I don't want to use the word decorative, but I think it could hang in your living room. You know?
Caitlin Gill (MAP):No one's buying roadkill and chicken nudes women. They're just not and that's fine. I don't care. You know? Mhmm.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):I, you know, not for nothing like, I make work that I wanna make and I don't really let the market dictate what I want to make. I'm not sales motivated which is like antithetical to the entire thing because like you need money to make the work. It's expensive like not for, you know, not for nothing. So, I struggle with it. Like I did an art fair in New York.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):I paid like $1500 for a booth fee. I paid like $350 to $500 for an Airbnb. And like, you know, that's not including traveling there and making the work. And I sold nothing.
Rob Lee:Yeah.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):And then I'm doing like, I'm in this residency and that's where my work is going is to Mexico City for another art fair. And it's like I fully anticipate that I will not sell anything. And I I guess I just made my peace with it. I just don't really care. Is that terrible?
Caitlin Gill (MAP):Maybe I sound like too cool for school. Like No. That capitalist agenda is not for me, you know.
Rob Lee:But No. But I think I think that's a good point. Like, you know, I I've I had this one, situation where I was able to travel a lot of times, and I was touching on it before we got started, of, like, you have a vision as to what you wanna do, but, you know, there's a relationship with capitalism there. Right? And, you know, what my plans were for this year involve travel, involve going to other places, and what I wanted to do was still using this sort of idea of running it back, but for folks in these other cities, I wanna interview 1 person and have them serve as a producer.
Rob Lee:It's like, who are 3 people I should interview while I'm here in town that are new artists and so on? So they get a producer's credit, all of this different stuff, and really being of the community and Yeah. Broadening and connecting that community. And it's kinda to the back burner now in in part because of the whole the whole funding conversation. Right?
Rob Lee:But, you know, when I take on an opportunity that requires me to spend a little extra money, this is kind of an easy or really agile setup. I own my equipment. I, you know, have the talent I suppose, and I have my home studio. Right? So those are all things that I own.
Rob Lee:So anything outside of that, it's a cost on me. Mhmm. And, you know, I don't go into an opportunity of, like, oh, how many followers does this person have?
Caitlin Gill (MAP):Thank God, because I wouldn't be here.
Rob Lee:But I but I I I'm on the other side of it though, where folks are, like, yeah, you know, just I only see 6,000 followers from you. It's like, alright.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):Oh. Cool.
Rob Lee:Yeah. Yeah. It's it's very weird because
Caitlin Gill (MAP):It is weird.
Rob Lee:I try not to make this a that it's it's of it has influence, I suppose, but I don't position it as an influencer sort of medium. And it's something about that where everything is attached to a dollar amount. Your movie sucked if it didn't make a $1,000,000,000 Mhmm. Or what have you. And it's like, that's not what it is.
Rob Lee:It's a creative expression.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):It doesn't matter. It's like all that matters at the end of the day is like what you think. Yeah. That's all that matters. If you think it's valuable, if you think it's successful, if you feel successful, nothing else matters.
Rob Lee:This is true.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):Yeah. I stopped looking outwards, honestly. I just don't think it serves anyone to be jonesing each other like grass is always greener. I just don't I don't wanna participate in that. If I did, like it's funny because I just have this meeting with my collective and it's like if we were all competing with each other then we couldn't build community.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):That's not the way it works.
Rob Lee:Wow. That's true.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):So like you have to like check your ego at the door and support each other unconditionally because like at the end of the day that's what we're all looking for anyways, unconditional support.
Rob Lee:Yeah.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):So like show it, you know, be what you be the change like Yeah. But like in a I think in a fundamental but also small way. It's like, all change is going to be this like huge impact, right? Not to be like a philosopher. I go to a lot of therapy, like so much.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):Like I should plug my therapist because she's amazing. She's also a Sagittarius and I feel like I wouldn't listen to anybody but a Sagittarius, so it's perfect.
Rob Lee:Oh, Sagittarius.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):Oh, no. It's that bad.
Rob Lee:Both my brothers are Sagittarius. Oh.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):Well, I am not reproducing. So
Rob Lee:No. It's it's it's it may be. Perfect.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):Yeah. Well, you're in a fridge. You probably thrived a little bit low key in that environment. If you were like, oh, an earth sign, you'd be, fuck that. Yeah.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):You probably would have like had to go to a lot of therapy if you don't already.
Rob Lee:So, well, so as we wrap up here Yeah. And thank you for that. This is this is good. I got one sort of like last real question here, and it's more of the and I think it aligns with what you were touching on there a moment ago of like, you're doing this for yourself. You're, you know, for someone that's young, so I feel like, you know, I've heard the whole Micah, I had some folks from Micah, they're like, man, go into your podcast, it's like a rite of passage.
Rob Lee:I was like, is it?
Caitlin Gill (MAP):That's really cool. It it is.
Rob Lee:And I've had other folks that that hit me up and say, yo, young people really listen to your I was like, I don't know. Don't glaze me up. But for from your perspective and the background and the lanes and in your universe, what would be a piece of advice you would share with someone who wants to, like, you know, just kind of do work that feels really personal that that kinda toes that line and that isn't necessarily, you know, of the market, if you will, or who wants to work in community and not do the competition thing. But it's like, how do we all kinda, for lack of a better term, eat off of this and thrive off of this? What a piece of advice would you share?
Caitlin Gill (MAP):I mean, I think ultimately, like I have I have a little bit of man behind the curtain energy. Right? Because like I work in exhibitions and then I'm also an artist. So it's like I kind of know how how the decisions get made. And ultimately it's it's so arbitrary and I mean that like it's not that we're like it's not about whether the work is good or bad.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):It's about what it's trending towards. Like everyone's collective consciousness what it's trending towards and that's how you produce a show. So things that we love may not get selected because it's not trending along with everybody else. And it's like that doesn't it's not a reflection of whether or not you're skilled or not or whether or not your work is important or not or whatever. Whatever you're trying to achieve with your work.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):It's just that simple. So don't take rejection personally because it's not personal. And don't let it deter you. And don't let it inform. Don't try to figure out what they want and then produce it.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):Figure out what you want and make it and the rest will happen. What is ever meant for you will happen for you. The doors will open. The right doors will open and like there's a market and a scene and an opportunity for everyone out there. That's the thing.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):There's so much opportunity. Like it's not you'll find your niche. It's just it might not be you know you might have to go to New York to find it. Not like don't leave. We want you to stay in Baltimore.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):But, you know like apply for exhibitions outside of the state. Apply for opportunities that aren't necessarily in an echo chamber because Baltimore is guilty of it. I think every art scene is. It's like it can kind of be a little redundant. I'm not Baltimore Energy.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):My work is not I get chosen nature centers and I'm like, Yep. That tracks.
Rob Lee:You know what I mean?
Caitlin Gill (MAP):It's either university galleries or nature centers. Those are my 2 camps. I don't know why. I didn't make the rules. You know what I mean?
Caitlin Gill (MAP):But here we are. It's like, you'll find it. You'll find it. It might be in Southern Maryland at some obscure nature center or arboretum, but I'm not mad at it. I love trees.
Rob Lee:That's a great way to put it. It reminds me of this clip I saw from like Jim Curry and he was talking about sort of, he's being interviewed and it's like, so you did a living color instead of SNL. Mhmm. And so how did that come along? And it's definitely a coded question.
Rob Lee:Why should it be black SNL versus your white guy? And he's like, you know, I'm kinda looking for any opportunity. Door, window, crevice, crack. And then, you know, for a big chunk of the nineties, he was one of the biggest stars that was out there, and a 30 plus year career, and it was just like, you you were you were the guy back in the day that had the rubber face that didn't do SNL. So it's it's very interesting to your point around finding, like, your crack, your crevice, your Yeah.
Rob Lee:Your way in. Yeah.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):And you will. Like, you won't it's not like doors are never gonna open. They're never gonna open. You know, just like the door that you're banging your head against might not open. So just go to another door.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):I've gotten rejected from so many things like and you know I think it's easy to get caught up in like that person got it and I didn't. It's like it's because at the end of the day it's all just aesthetic judgment. These are people that have their own we all have our own taste. There is artwork that I absolutely love and then there's artwork that I won't spend a lot of time on because it's just not my vibe. But it's like, is that to say it's less successful?
Caitlin Gill (MAP):No. It's just that's my preference.
Rob Lee:Yeah.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):We're all operating out of preference. So it's like, just because it's not somebody's cup of tea doesn't mean it's not somebody else's. And don't fixate on whose it's not because that's not meant for you. Yeah. No.
Rob Lee:It's
Caitlin Gill (MAP):Go find what's meant for you.
Rob Lee:That's good. That's a good point to close on, actually. Yeah. That works. It's kind of a needle drop.
Rob Lee:When we talk about this quote book that comes up, I'll have that one in there.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):Yeah. Good. I hope so.
Rob Lee:Alright. So I got 3
Caitlin Gill (MAP):Oh, God. So nervous.
Rob Lee:I got 3 rapid fire questions. I'm always sweating.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):Normalize it.
Rob Lee:Just it's the meat sweats. So here here's the first one, and this is however it comes to you is the right answer. However you wanna answer is the right answer.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):Oh my god. It's like a riddle.
Rob Lee:Oh, it is.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):Okay.
Rob Lee:It is. The Chinese finger traps. Great. So the first one, this this relates to, like, art. I saw this this quote earlier that really inspired it.
Rob Lee:And it's sort of like, are you going further as an artist because of obsession or because of talent?
Caitlin Gill (MAP):I would say that can I can I do a weird third option?
Rob Lee:Sure.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):Necessity. Like, I swear it's it's like it's like the only thing I do for me. It's, like, selfish. I think that's why I struggle getting back into it because I said I was an empath earlier, and it's, like, it was it felt so selfish and ego driven to just produce and think everybody should look at it. You know what I mean?
Caitlin Gill (MAP):Yeah. But people that have children do that all the time. So, like, I don't see the differences. I'm just kidding. But, yeah.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):I mean, I think I just have to. I can't imagine my life where I'm not I just can't imagine a life where I'm not doing it. So, I mean, maybe, like, with a touch of obsession, maybe, but
Rob Lee:I I get obsessed and I call it, and it's very Aquarius brand and I call it riding a wave. Mhmm. Yeah. It's just like I'm I'm just on in this. Like wherever it takes me is where I'm gonna go.
Rob Lee:You know, it's like it was a period in which I wasn't saying no to a lot, and then starting off with that base level, and then refining as I go along. It's like polishing a stone or something. But yeah, at least starting off with, this is an opportunity. This should work. Let's see where it goes.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):Yeah.
Rob Lee:And to and so when someone's like, why are you doing so many? Because I like it.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):Right.
Rob Lee:And maybe it borders on obsession, you know. I don't know if I'm talented per se, but obsession which sounds really really I
Caitlin Gill (MAP):don't think I'm talented. I'll be honest. I really think and that's not like that's not me trying to like fish for a compliment or anything. I genuinely don't think I am. I think I have made a system that works around my weaknesses really successfully.
Rob Lee:It's good. It's a good way to put that. Yeah. Alright. This so the next 2 are Yeah.
Rob Lee:Emotions. What do you usually do when you're bored?
Caitlin Gill (MAP):I don't get bored. Are you kidding? Downtime is my worst nightmare. I was terrified of have of being bored. My girlfriend is literally like, you can't sit you, like, sit.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):And I'm like, nope. I'm either sleeping or I'm working. That's it. Those are the 2 modes. And that's not like a flex.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):Like honestly, don't live my life. Learn from me. Don't do it. It's honestly exhausting. But yeah, no.
Rob Lee:I'm always on agitated, you know, just energy. It's like, I gotta work on this. Here's some questions here. Like when I was going back through earlier and and like, fine toothing your questions, I was like I got 4 other guests I can work on. Let me just write these.
Rob Lee:And it's like that Kermit meme where he's just like typing and throwing paper over his shoulder, and I'm supposed to be at work.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):Heard. Yeah. No. I don't I think Amy also would would agree and she's she's never bored either. Like, we're just like we're just like built different.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):Like, we're just worker I think there are people that my mom's always like, what? When you're on your deathbed, are you gonna wish you worked another day? And I was like, probably. Like, actually, like, work fulfills me. I love working.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):I love it. So when I'm bored, I work.
Rob Lee:I dig it. I dig it.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):Yeah. So
Rob Lee:here's the last one. And because, you know, it's sort of this this cycle. Right? Where we we touched on a little bit here about the sort of you have these wins of, like, I made this work. I'm really excited for this piece.
Rob Lee:Or damn, I got rejected from that? Alright. Cool. So I'm always curious on, like, some of the traits that folks have. Usually, it's a question on how many hours sleep, would you eat less, things of that nature.
Rob Lee:Self care. Right? But this is a question that's in that vein, but different. What makes you happy?
Caitlin Gill (MAP):Oh, my God. Would it be so depressing if I said nothing? I'm just kidding. I'm actually I probably am clinically depressed, but I don't know. My cats, I love my cats.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):I love animals. Absolutely. I grew up in a county. I'm an animal girly. I had a possum.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):Who has a possum? Nobody.
Rob Lee:Trax.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):Right? Honestly, you look at me and you're like, She's definitely had a pet possum. And I did. That's true.
Rob Lee:I'm like, How to meet those tracks.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):Thank you. That's the best compliment I've ever received. I love animals. I think animals are like I think that animals teach us how to love like the right way. Like I don't think partners do and I don't think parents do because they all fall a little short.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):Right? But I feel like animals do. They show us how to love unconditionally and I'm grateful for all of them. I have a lot of them and I love them all. I have 10 lizards.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):I know. 10. I just changed all their terrariums last night. It took like 3 hours. 10.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):I have hissing cockroaches too. Because they were gonna kill them. Because they were gonna kill them. So I say, I'm not even vegan. What do I care?
Caitlin Gill (MAP):I give crickets to my gothos, but I'm like, not the roaches. Tell me.
Rob Lee:Not not the roaches.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):So They're named after my parents. So I have 5, and their names are Deborah, Debbie, David, Dave, Deb.
Rob Lee:That's just I mean, I have a cat. That's all I have. Oh, no. And
Caitlin Gill (MAP):You want a roach? No.
Rob Lee:I I've had enough. I'm driven the projects. What do you say? They were there. We had a whole, like
Caitlin Gill (MAP):You didn't put him in a tree. It was like Joe's apartment. Sweet potatoes.
Rob Lee:Like Joe's apartment in TV movie from the nineties. Oh
Caitlin Gill (MAP):my god. I'm crying.
Rob Lee:So that's it. We have the clothes on roaches.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):Yeah. Perfect. Actually, I have a one request. I would like for you to take out every single time I said that's cool.
Rob Lee:No. I wanna actually have an echo behind it each time.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):I think I've said it like 10 times and I was like, can you come up with a different catchphrase, Kayla? I can't. I know. I cannot.
Rob Lee:It's gonna stay in. There is no edits here. But what I what I what would I do wanna do?
Caitlin Gill (MAP):Just loop it. Oh. That's cool. That's cool. That's cool.
Rob Lee:That's gonna be in front of the Ace More.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):I hope so.
Rob Lee:It's just like your goals and that's cool. Oh. If you wake up to that part. So there's 2 things I wanna do as I close out here. 1, I wanna thank you for for spending some time.
Rob Lee:We've been talking for like an hour.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):I know.
Rob Lee:And, 2, I wanna invite and encourage you to kinda plug anything you want in these final moments. Website, social media, any of the stuff that you wanna cover. The floor is yours.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):I don't know what what I would plug. I would just say, like, check out the Gossip Girl Collective. We have a site. It's just gossip girl, I think, dot com. And then, my Instagram handle is
Rob Lee:at
Caitlin Gill (MAP):sakatylinn. Sakatydot lynn. You're welcome. Yes. It's my moniker.
Caitlin Gill (MAP):I go by Katie Lynn because I was like trying to keep my art separate from my job, but like that didn't work. That's great.
Rob Lee:And there you have it folks. I wanna again thank Caitlin Gill for coming on to the podcast, and I'm Rob Lee saying that there's art, culture, and community in and around your neck of the woods. You just gotta look for it.
