welcome to the Truth in His Art. I am your host, Rob Lee. Thank you for tuning into my conversations at the intersection of arts, culture, and community. Today, I've got a good one. Got an interview with a guest who is an award winning cultural anthropologist, visual artist, and curator whose multifaceted work in public art and community building has made him a respected leader in Washington DC's creative scene.
Rob Lee:Please welcome Corey Lee Stowers. Welcome to the podcast.
Cory Stowers:Oh, man. Thank you for having me. Thank you for having me.
Rob Lee:Thank you for coming on. Thank you for making the time. And it's funny, like, you know, as you were mentioning earlier before we got into this, you know, running into another, like, lead middle name guy, it's a thing. It's a thing. I'm I'm happy about it.
Rob Lee:It's like we connect. I do this thing when I'm interviewing folks. If they're wearing glasses, I always point that out.
Cory Stowers:Mhmm. I took mine out.
Rob Lee:So, yeah, it it was something. So as we get started in the sort of introductory question, you know, I find, like, a lot of times, when we do that, that that first like sort of introduction is something that's left out is something that's missing. And, you know, part of what I aim to do is to get that extra layer from a person. So I want to give you the space and opportunity to introduce yourself because I find like the artist statement, the online bio, always something that's missing. So if you will, could you introduce yourself and tell us a bit about your work?
Cory Stowers:Sure. My name is Corey Lee Stowers. I've been yeah. We did. We did.
Cory Stowers:But I I did catch a question. I know I know what you're what you're asking. Corey Lee Stowers. I'm originally from High School, Maryland in PG County. That's where I grew up.
Cory Stowers:That's where I started writing graffiti and getting involved in graffiti culture. Very soon after to, jump on the green line and start spending most of my evenings on U Street, primarily at Copa House, which was a very well known dance hall in the late 19 nineties. I I ended up working at as a promotions manager and as a booker, being around folks like the Freestyle Union. That would be like Tony Blackman, Priest the Nomads, Stormly Unpredictable, of course, getting kind of integrated into the DC hip hop scene through that that space. We ended up promoting parties there, Tuesday night open mic hip hop, Power Moves party, which was really big, you know, 98 into 2001 before Cop House closed and kind of set me on this trajectory of working within the kind of cultural community, creating not only live events, but also, art shows, teaching graffiti classes with a number of, nonprofit organizations like the Midnight Forum, Metro Teenage.
Cory Stowers:That landed me a 7 year stint as the art director of Words, Beats, and Life. And that kind of tracked me into creating public murals, which we were already kind of doing as graffiti artists, doing what we call street productions Mhmm. Which is less about, like, doing community work and more like our community coming together and creating work together. But it did segue into us creating public murals. Throughout that whole time, creating music, writing, primarily about graffiti culture and street culture in DC.
Cory Stowers:And really just kinda giving me this basis, of of knowledge and connection, with a, you know, large group of people and creatives in Washington DC that, you know, become my family over the years. And at any point in time during the year, I'll be doing, you know, projects either with muralist or with recording artists or, or with organizations, in order to help promote those, you know, those communities.
Rob Lee:Thank you. That's a it's a great introduction and in giving us a, you know, a taste of what this background and what your work has been about in an abbreviated way. So thank you for that because it's a lot, you know? When you start mentioning, oh, yeah. You know, back in this time
Cory Stowers:Yeah. It could get it could get we could get into the weeds with it. I mean, we could spend a whole a whole year talking about half house, but, you know, I know I know we have a limited amount of time here, so we wanna make sure that we could space it out.
Rob Lee:So I I wanna go into this sort of next next piece because I think you know, I did this this interview yesterday, actually, and, you know, me and the, the the guest, we both do something very similar. We we interview creative folks, and I I I'm a little bit more self deprecating about it. I say that I interview people more talented than I am, and I kind of kind of steal from their story a little bit. Say, oh, yeah. You know, this is great.
Rob Lee:To to to reference the great Corey Stowers, I will start doing that. Talk a bit about some of your creative role models. It doesn't necessarily have to be someone that's in DC or someone that's in the graffiti world or even in the music world, but someone that you're you're getting something out of this kind of, like, help, you know, send you on your trajectory or how you go about what you do? What do you admire about that that those role models?
Cory Stowers:I would say, creatively, you know, my my initial artistic kind of expression is graffiti. So many of my early role models are graffiti artists. You know, looking up to people like Cool Disco and, you know, when I was growing up because his name was all around me or gravitating towards, you know, my my initial graffiti mentor, Sertz, because his name was so prominent along the red line. And on to, other other, you know, kinda style, style mentors like SMK or. These are these are folks that helped shape me as a graffiti artist.
Cory Stowers:At the same time, I was really starting to come into my own and gravitate towards music that I appreciated, more for myself. Some of the in initial influences, for me picking up, you know, the pen and starting to write songs where Nina Simone was a huge influence and being kind of brought into her world really started to make me think about, like, how I could, you know, bring my thoughts out. KRS 1 is another one. An artist who, you know, upon receiving the work and really kinda like sitting with it was, a huge influence in what I do. Outside of that, I look at writers like, really, really anthropologists like, Martha Cooper, Henry Chalfant, who were responsible for documenting some of the, you know, the earliest graffiti.
Cory Stowers:And these are these are all spheres where I've spent my time and energy in over the last 2 decades. And these, these folks were were right there at my formation, and so they became my instantaneous influences. You know, most most graffiti writers don't also write books, and they don't also, like, document and and and present, the way that I do. And so, like, I feel like I got a little bit of, you know, both both sides of that that equation when I was initially coming in and being introduced to the culture because not only was there this, yes, we're practicing it, but we're also preserving it in this way also. And we're doing it in tandem.
Cory Stowers:And so that's been kinda like a guiding philosophy for me, where I kinda, like, took bits and pieces from from these folks and then started to combine them into the way that I'm presenting myself, artistically or or, you know, from a scholarly perspective when I'm doing my writings or or putting together the exhibits. It's always really kinda centered in, you know, that first initial experience. And, my my partner and I, we often go back and forth with each other, and this this was, this is something that, you know, I believe, you know, was said by Basquiat, which was, you know, you know, I'm doing what would make 16 year old me, you know, you know, proud. Yeah. I'm gonna have to take that back.
Cory Stowers:I don't think it's Basquiat. Now now now I'm losing who who said it. But ideally, it's like, you know, whatever you're doing, would 16 year old do you think it's cool? You know? And we and and I kinda go into that those kind of spaces where I'm I'm thinking, you know, now I'm 45, you know, going into 46.
Cory Stowers:And what is what does 16 year old Corey think about, you know, 46 year old Corey? And I would have to say that, you know, he would be pretty stoked that, you know, he's doing the things that he's doing now. But that's that's always, a question when we're talking about influences and then how that how that kind of plays out. I think about it the same way. Like, what would KRAS one thing could be heard by music?
Cory Stowers:Or, you know, what would Nina Simone think of Fear of My Music? You know, like, I kinda think about those things, and I always kinda push things through a lens like that. Yeah.
Rob Lee:I mean, it it's it's been a few instances where, you know, people have asked me, and it's in this vein, so it has me thinking about it. People have asked me just, you know, when I do interviews, like, who's your dream interview? Who's the person you want an interview? And I'm always, like, looking for, like, you know, anyone that has something like that like that's an interesting thing that's just kind of out of the norm. It's like, that's interesting.
Rob Lee:That's a that's a weird process. But there are a few instances where I've interviewed someone that's like, alright, I'm fanboying out a little bit right now. I need to scale it back, and it's coming from that position of, would they like these questions? Would they like how I'm approaching this interview? Would they like what the sentiment of what I'm doing in this whole sort of, dare to say, body of work?
Rob Lee:And a lot of times, they get it, and I feel like I'm in the right direction, but I'm almost waiting for that that left hook, that that that counter left hook that I'm not expecting. Like, damn, they hate it. They're like, ah, you can do better. Right. But it is sort of yeah.
Rob Lee:I think I I did this interview probably 2 years ago with artist, writer, Raffi Perez. And in the process of coming up with questions, I reference his book a lot, and he paid me the compliment. And I told him, I was like, dude, I reference your book. He was like, I think you're pushing it to that next stage. And I was like, oh my gosh.
Rob Lee:Like, I I just I melted on a podcast. I was like, wow. This is this is amazing.
Cory Stowers:This feels really
Rob Lee:so having having that moment and having that, those those sort of opportunities and even inspiring for those opportunities because they're an influence, That's that's a lot.
Cory Stowers:Yeah. And, you know, for for me, it's it's about I always look at the people that came before me in the spaces and fields that that I'm operating in and and wanting to know that they that they feel good about, like, what, you know, what I'm doing, particularly when it comes to representing, like, history. You know what I'm saying? Because certain things that I write about, I just I wasn't there for it, you know, obviously. You know?
Cory Stowers:I can't I couldn't. But, but, like, getting feedback from people who were in and around those spaces who can give me that that kind of direct feedback and be like, no. I think you're really on the the right path with what you're doing. That that is the feedback that that keeps me going, you know, and knowing that, that the people that I'm I'm I'm writing about and writing for support what I'm doing.
Rob Lee:So in that, let's let's talk a bit about some of some of the challenges of what you're you're working and whether it be from purely the creative side or even the scholarly side. But I wanna hear about some of the challenges because, you know, I see different projects and different organizations that you've been a part of and you've you've kind of led the direction of. But what have been some of the challenges and and some of the rewards? You can either go in a very specific example or even a more broad and macro example because I think there's a a sort of
Cory Stowers:And I think, so you were asking about some of the challenges in the work, and, you did specifically reference in the written questions just like the challenges between leading DC murals and in our block DC, because they have, you know, kind of even though there there's some some overlap and where where those missions may meet, there is definitely distinct tracks for them. And I'll say this, when when I started ArtBloc DC in 2018, it was really about putting together, an advocacy organization for, the artists that I've been working with. A lot of them were muralists and and graffiti artists trying to break into, you know, kinda commercial work. And what we were seeing is that there was a lot of attention being drawn towards the street art murals. However, we also saw that there was a lot of, spaces where the artists weren't really being properly, compensated.
Cory Stowers:They weren't, you know, being given the support they needed to produce projects. And then there was also this this whole hurdle of trying to track down funding and apply for grants and things like that. And so that that was all, a very, very new experience for for many of the artists and and for myself included. So I approach that in a way where I'm gonna learn a system, and then I'm going to, as best as possible, share this information and work with these artists as a group so that we can produce, you know, projects that, you know, that could be grant funded, that that would have public significance. And and that was the the other huge part about our block because I saw so many new pieces of art going up into communities that were non contextual, that were kind of changing visually the identity of spaces that and it really didn't, fit in with the narrative of what those spaces had been.
Cory Stowers:And, and so we wanted to try to create a group that was gonna combat that. And and we did for, for the first few years that we were up and running, we created a ton of murals, worked with dozens of artists. And most of those artists now are are independently working in the city, having kind of learned and navigated that system, and become, you know, independent, you know, of the group, while the group brings in new people and and and kinda continues to do that that work. On the other hand, DC Murals, which was an archiving project founded in 1997 by, one of my mentors, doctor Perry Frank, was strictly just about, documenting and archiving the public artwork in DC. And, so, you know, with with the work for DC murals, it has always been really a a a labor of love.
Cory Stowers:It was for doctor Frank. She started the organization with no funding. It wasn't even an organization back then. It was, just a project, you know, that she paid for out of her out of her own pocketbook, and, paid photographers to take photographs, you know, rented out spaces to do exhibitions and and and and the discussions with the artist. And I met her along my journey while I was out painting, you know, on the streets essentially, and realized that what she was doing was super important as I was doing it with the graffiti.
Cory Stowers:She was doing it with the murals. And so over the years, she would come to me for design, you know, her her design work and things of that nature. And, 2017, she officially asked me to join as a as a, you know, auxiliary member of the organization. I became the associate, director, in 2018. And then in 2021 when she decided to step down because of health reasons, I was named the executive director.
Cory Stowers:So I say all that, and I tell a lot of people I inherited the organization essentially because there was nobody there to take on the work. And if and if I hadn't stepped in, the work that doctor Frank had been doing for the last 25 years might have just gone away. And it was hugely important to me, that that didn't happen. And that's a sentiment that, you know, kind of, that that's a sentiment that kinda, like, crosses my work, particularly when we talk about, like, honoring, like, the the older artists and graffiti artists, you know, because for for the very same reason, their stories could easily slide slip away, you know, if nobody's there to preserve them or to, to put into context for people why it's important. Right?
Cory Stowers:So, back to you, which is, you know, what are some of the challenges, you know, that we that we faced. And with with both of those groups, I'd say one of the biggest challenges that I that I often run into is funding. Right? Like, we're constantly looking for ways that we can continue the work, whether it's, you know, through finding funding to do a mural, with the organization or if it's finding, funding to, you know, continue archiving to again, the one of the one of the biggest, you know, issues facing the work is is funding. And and a lot of times, it's just because you're gonna have to go look for it.
Cory Stowers:You know? If you're not generating revenue based off of the stuff that you're doing, you're you're really dependent on, public, you know, donations or some sort of funding that's coming from the government, and either of which require, you know, a lot of work to to generate and keep going. So what I find, you know, is is most difficult is just making sure that there's enough to go around. And as we're as we move forward, I what I see for us as being a a solution to that or at least something that's very helpful is, almost like the merging of the missions between the 2. You know, while DC murals currently is a 501c3, we're looking at, kind of redirecting it as a social enterprise, which will allow us to do much of the same things we're doing with art block under the same banner, and give us a little bit more, traction in terms of from an organizational perspective to be able to to do the work that we've been doing.
Cory Stowers:The last couple of years have been pretty great. We've had some amazing projects, amazing partnerships with, you know, Martin Luther King Memorial Library, Phillips Collection, the creation of the 14th Street Graffiti Museum, and and, 16th Street Heights. And so we've seen we've seen interest in what we're doing. And so, really, now what it's about is about streamlining it. A lot of times, it feels like I'm a I'm a team of 1 even though I have a lot of a lot of folks around me that I can tap into.
Cory Stowers:But as we move forward, we're really looking to build a robust organization, something that can that can stand alone and, will not have the same issues. Like, when it's time for me to step up and do my thing, you know, that that the work just goes away. So we're we're really focused right now on the building of, institutional structure, and institutional knowledge so that those things can be passed on to, you know, to the next energetic bunch when it's time.
Rob Lee:No. That that makes a lot of sense, and and thank you. Because, you know, you you touched on, you on you think about these challenges, you touched on sort of the the funding thing, and, you know, there's an anthropological bent to to what I'm doing here and crossing multiple communities at this point, but it's always sort of that, and it's, you know, from from my standpoint, I don't I don't know if it's the same, but from my my standpoint, when you're encountering or when I'm encountering sort of potential funders, potential foreigner, partners, I said, partners, so sounds really weird, but potential partners, it's trying to align sort of, you know, what their values are with what I'm doing or what my aspirational thing is, and there have been times where I've been told, you know, I'll read over it, I'll see the alignment, and I can I can make that go to case, but then sort of the alignment is not the public alignment? It's like, oh, well, you know, can we kinda direct you maybe to these sort of interviews, or maybe you should do this, or maybe you should not. And I was just like, I don't want any input in that way, like, you know, if you'd like the work and the work aligns, let's not try to have this next stage because then it's almost sort of a so you guys are now a producer now or or something of that, and it's almost someone telling you the what the work that you're doing, who, let's say, I'm talking to or who I'm interested in pursuing, suddenly that's not good.
Rob Lee:It's just, like, what is the the value? What is the alignment? And the money component, the funding component is always somehow around that. I I have a few that I'm encountering currently, so definitely that's top of mind. And it's, it's always the thing.
Rob Lee:It's never quite enough to really fully realize or get close to what that vision might be. So, and this, this kind of aligns with this, this next question. So and and I want to expand it a little bit. So talk about the the thought process as it comes to creating work. You know, I know that that's one side of it, you know, and as broadly as that might be, but then also sort of like initiatives through the organizations, like, okay, I think we should do this and work in this way.
Rob Lee:And then I asked that because, you know, I'm already thinking of the episodes of 2025 right now. I had a meeting about that earlier and thinking about, like, alright. Who's gonna fund this? Who do the partners to reach out to? How can I make x, y, and z happen?
Rob Lee:What are the episodes and and things of that nature? I'm already starting that sort of preparation and incubation and even that that verification. So let's let's talk a bit about that, the sort of process of getting to that getting to the work.
Cory Stowers:So the a process that has kind of emerged for me, I don't wanna say that I've ever been in and then been like, this is how I'm doing things, like, front to back. It's it's kind of like an evolving thing. Right? But what I have been doing for the last couple of years is harnessing ideas. Like, the ideas that I may have might pop into my head, like, oh, when we wrote the grant for the aerosol show that we did with, MLK Library, I wanted to have a conversation about the connection between graffiti, you know, graffiti writing and public murals, and how, you know, in in contemporary culture, one has directly informed the other.
Cory Stowers:And have this conversation, you know, person to person a lot when we're talking to folks, when they point out to me, you know, how much they love, you know, the murals that they're seeing around the city, most of which are painted by graffiti artists. And then in the same breath, they'll point over to, like, a trash can or something and be like, oh, but I don't like that. And I have to oftentimes, you know, attempt to educate folks and be like, well, you know, without that tag on the trash can, you don't get the artist that eventually creates this. Right? Because it that's all a process, you know, for for the artist to go through to get to a space where they're actually ready to create something that's community facing.
Cory Stowers:Right? And that's not of of the ego. Right? It's a it's a whole process that has to happen. And so I and so the idea for that show, for the aerosol show came from from conversations that I was having.
Cory Stowers:And I was like, well, if I could put together something that shows people, like, in kind of like a time line form, how graffiti art got to DC, how the how what that original graffiti art kind of looked like, and then how those artists then informs, you know, how public murals would look within, you know, within 10 or 15 years, then we would really have something, you know, solid that could, you know, educate people to to, you know, what's happened here over the last 30 years. And, you know, that so that that became an idea. Right? That idea needed to have funding. It needed to have the right space.
Cory Stowers:It needed to have the right audience. And so we started looking around for opportunities to write a grant. Humanities DC is an amazing org organization here in DC, and we found a receptive ear with them. Again, you you're spending time, you know, writing, you know, grant proposals and applications and things like that, but try to find the right fit. But even within that, I think that a lot of times, it's about finding, finding interested, you know, partners within the community.
Cory Stowers:For us, you know what I'm saying? MLK library was like a like a no brainer for us because they have already the people's archive there. They're invested in cultural history such as, like, punk and and go go. And so when we brought this project to them, they they gave us the immediate thumbs up that we would be able to do to do work with them. And in that in that way, it's kind of been, like, the public process.
Cory Stowers:I'll come up with the idea, and then I will think, where does this where does this fit, you know, in in the in the community? And then I'll go there, and I'll advocate for for us to to be present in those spaces.
Rob Lee:It's great. I think, you know, listening to that folks are who just wanna get an idea of, like, what does that approach look like? I I you know, as I'm listening to it, I'm like, alright. I'm taking these notes. I'm gonna adjust my process and how I may go about connecting to these these folks and advocating for a particular thing.
Rob Lee:And yeah. You know, it's like, where's their where's the need? How do we put it out there? How do we align with the folks? And sometimes there are folks that, you know, in our organizations that you have that alignment with.
Rob Lee:Like, I've been to to the library. I like the library when you mentioned, you know, the the archive. I was like, I reached out to them. I I would love to you know? So definitely the alignment is there.
Rob Lee:And it's these other elements, I think, that make up the pieces of culture that are in DC, whether it be from the the visual language with, like, sort of the the murals and, you know, for lack of better terms, sort of the street art, and then sort of the sounds that are there and the history that are there. That all makes sense together.
Cory Stowers:Yeah. And, I mean, for me, I have, I've done a lot of teaching over the years, and a lot of times my when I'm brought into a space, I'm being brought in to do something that's, like, you know, street art or graffiti related or mural related. And a lot of the teachers are like, oh, the kids all love your class. They just wanna be in your class. And I was like, yeah.
Cory Stowers:I kinda got I got it a little bit easy. You know, graffiti is, you know, easy an easy thing to get over with the kids. But as I think about it and as had conversations and with with different businesses and organizations over the past, like, 15 years. It's actually cool, you know, outside of outside of, like, the teenagers. You know?
Cory Stowers:A lot of people wanna be, you know, wanna be, you know, around this, you know, and they wanna know more about it. And so it's it's for the most part, it's a easy sell, you know, like, when we're talking about sharing, you know, these images and these stories of these artists because people wanna know. There there's a lot of intrigue around it. There's, a lot still a lot of misrounded in. And people just don't have access, you know, from other spaces where they can go and get the information.
Cory Stowers:And so, you know, I mean, I know there are other there are other organizations that have a tougher, you know, have a tougher sell to, you know, to get their programming across because it might not resonate, you know, or might not have the cache that that what we're offering does. But, I still find it I still find it very interesting when when, institutions open their doors up open their doors up to us. And that maybe that's just a byproduct of for many years, it not being like that. You know, there weren't any galleries that wanted to show us. There weren't any places that would let us, you know, hang our work, or or there weren't many forums that were, you know, that were accepting of the fact that, you know, this is a new form of art that's that's really evolving in the moment, and we should be, you know, paying attention to it.
Cory Stowers:But I think that we've we've kinda turned the corner on that. And, you know, for us, you know what I'm saying? Like, over the last 5 years, we've really seen this general, you know, public reception of what it is that we're presenting, in a way that I don't think we saw before.
Rob Lee:Yeah. I I see and thank you. Because I as I see parallels, that made me think, like, you know, it's it's kind of a sticking at it sort of thing where, you know, I rally. I get on the soapbox. I can't tell you what type of soap it is, but I get on a soapbox, play advocating for sort of this as a as an art form, a storytelling.
Rob Lee:It can be audio drama. It could be all of these different things, podcasting as as a whole. And, you know, it's it's it's things that are right now. It's, like, everyone thinks they can do it. And then, you know, it's, like, that's not quite true.
Rob Lee:But then when it comes to those funding dollars that that pitch in that conversation, it's, well, what you do is this. It's not what I do. You know, that's not what a lot of people are doing. Like, this person is doing an audio drama. That's that's theater.
Rob Lee:You know, it's not on a stage, but it's it's actors. It's a play in Britain or you know, I haven't used it as much, but other people that listen to it and see sort of this hash of interviews and this archive of interviews, this is anthropological work. But it's like, oh, no. It's just you talking. It's like, you know, so it's trying to get it over, throw that value while while doing it and sticking with it and engaging in all the rigors of making sort of the work.
Rob Lee:So hearing that, it's like, oh, yeah. You know, like, it's it's much better now for you. So talk a bit about, you know, the you you have these things that are connected. I was touching on this a little bit earlier about maybe the curation for me is
Cory Stowers:I I just wanted to, let me jump back because you had asked about process. You had asked about, you know, kind of like, inspirations. And and, you know, for me, a lot of it and and I and I'm and I referenced, you know, the idea. Right? But the idea always centers around a story.
Cory Stowers:And and, just like like what you just said for yourself, you know, like, we're we're really in in the space of of storytelling. And for me, it's always about, you know, what are the what are the important stories that need to be told that people are not talking about right now? Right? I mean, you have any number of outlets covering a particular current event. That's always happening.
Cory Stowers:But from from the perspective of a cultural anthropologist or even I I refer to myself as a subcultural anthropologist to to a certain degree because most of the stuff that I'm still writing about is kinda, like, below the radar. So, But with the even within that, like, what are the important what are the important stories? What are the important who are the important actors in these in these, in in these histories that people aren't talking about? Because those are the stories that I wanna tell, whether through a mural, whether through an article, or whether through an exhibit, you know, or even in song. You know what I'm saying?
Cory Stowers:I wanna bring that into the conversation. And so much of what we do now is, you know, what what you're doing is reporting oral histories even though that's in this this kinda, like, interview format, you know, like, you know, people podcasting. But, you know, you're recording oral histories. You're you know, for many of the people that that you're interviewing, you probably have not been interviewed multiple times in their lives. And I'm saying you're putting an hour or more towards, like, uncovering who they are, the work that they're doing, and and why it's important.
Cory Stowers:And I feel and and you probably feel like a passion. You know, you have a passion for that, much in the same way that I have a passion for, you know, feeling that, like, each one of these people that were painting murals in the city for the last 30 years should have their voices heard, should have their you know, should have their stories told, and and the graffiti art saying and the same token. So I find a lot of my, inspiration for that stuff comes from, you know, looking at looking at things and and and posing questions to myself. And being like, well, who did this? Why did they do it?
Cory Stowers:You know? How did they, you know, how did they do it? Once we could start answering those and we start to formulate these these stories that that we could start to share with people, and that's been, a huge driving force for me for the last 10 or 15 years.
Rob Lee:That's that's huge. You you're right. You know, it's it's one of those things where, you know, I had a had a chance to interview someone who, you know, he's like, look. I'm, you know, I'm I'm in my late seventies, you know, and we were talking about sort of his journey as in in film and in media and in creativity and in the work he was doing, and, you know, I'm like you know, and I really admire his work, right, his his sort of history. And he was like, man, I'm really privileged to be on your podcast.
Rob Lee:I was just like, oh, man. He's like, people are actually observing. He's like, you're outside of my demo. You know, like, you wouldn't have been around in my heyday. And he started interviewing me and trying to understand that sort of context and understand, like, how would you know someone who wasn't around for a lot of the stuff I was doing, how do you now have nostalgia for something you weren't around for?
Rob Lee:And we're engaging, like, in a really interesting conversation. And this is a ham fisted segue, but I think you're gonna like it. You know, technology made that conversation happen, made that branch of storytelling happen. So for you, could you speak on, like, the work that you're involved in and how technology plays a role in it, and how do you see it continually playing a role in it as as we move along, as you matriculate along?
Cory Stowers:For sure. You know, when when we started painting, murals, you know, in the early 2000, we were really in a in a, you know, learn as we go process. You know? Like, how do we get you know, how do we access walls, heights, you know, without, like, bringing in, you know, scaffolding and all of these things. And so we started, like, experimenting with things.
Cory Stowers:And, I think we were the first ones in the city to bring, you know, like, hydraulic lifts and to use to to access buildings instead of putting full scaffolding on it and, even utilizing things like projectors to replacement as opposed to spending days days days producing a grid on a wall. Right? We would come up with our artwork, and then we would get it and project it on the wall and get it to where we want it, you know, in order to make the work faster. Right? And as we were doing kind of implementing things like that, and we were kinda like sharing and showing with, with other muralists.
Cory Stowers:We started thinking about other ways that we could, you know, extend the experience of, of what we were doing. And in 2015, that meant, like, you know, tapping into the use of augmented reality and image recognition, you know, kind of applications that were available. And through that, we started making, what we we called living murals. So there would be, obviously static images on the on the wall, but using your mobile device, you could scan and find hidden content. And with that, we created the 1st interactive mural in the United States with the living timeline called Robeson Mural, which allowed you to scan the history pods that we had painted on the wall and get video content onto your phone that would extend, you know, the story and give you a little bit more context of the scene that we were painting.
Cory Stowers:And we ended up doing that with a number of, of murals over over, span of a couple of years and really bringing into it. And and this was even not even using any sort of, like, animation or something. Some of the stuff that's being used now, But just kinda using it as, you know, as a tool to to bring additional information, additional content into the experience for the viewers. That, you know, coupled with, like, QR codes now and things of that nature, which makes it a lot easier to, like, kinda give people a little bit extra stuff, when you're doing it, has been, has been really kind of groundbreaking for us because now not only are we painting an image, but now we can, you know, with the Paul Robeson mural, we we painted the the mural, but then we also put artists in the recording studio to record original music. And we had videographers working to take, to take archival footage and weave them into new compositions.
Cory Stowers:And so through all of that, we are finding ways to tap into broader artistry and bring that into something that people, you know, historically have considered, you know, very static. Right? Once the mural's that are going to have, you know, this this, this mural that's being painted, but that's just it. Now people are engaging with it and they're offering, you know, different, different, kinda takes on, you know, what their favorite part was. You know?
Cory Stowers:Some people we painted the mural. People love the mural, but some people love the songs that were attached to the mural. You know? And they're like, oh, this is amazing. I wanna download this or I wanna have this, you know, so I can listen to it.
Cory Stowers:And that's and that's been a really great experience. And we were went on to do a number of murals over a 3, 4 year period where we were really creating these, different kind of dynamics for, like, what you could expect out of public art. Right? It wasn't just this thing where you walk by and be like, oh, that's pretty. You know?
Cory Stowers:Now it's like, oh, I have to stop and I need to, you know, go further into this because I wanna know exactly why he's in this position and what he's doing. You know? And I think that that's that's something that's, you know, really, really, you know, a blessing, for for creating in this time. Right? Because there's so much happened.
Cory Stowers:There's so many things that are that are changing, even on even on, like, a month to month basis in terms of technology that how you can apply it and how you can put it forward to the 2 things that you're doing is, you know, it's almost, you know, you you know, there's no kind of no end to it. So we just like the the idea of adapting to, you know, new things, new technologies that people are engaging with and finding ways, extend that, experience for them when they're looking at a piece of work that we're bringing into the community.
Rob Lee:That's great. And it's it's great to hear how and and, like, I really I really like when you're able to experience, you know, something creatively, and then you're able to get a bit more, like, I I I it make it, in my head, it plays similar to when I watch maybe the fictionalized version of something, and then I watch the sort of documentary version, and then I maybe read the book, and it's like, oh, a full picture is forming. The the closest thing that I can think of in my head is when, you know, maybe when you get, like, you watch a movie and it's like, here's the serialized companion piece, here's the companion piece. Here's the book that goes along with it, or here's the fictionalized version and the documentary and sort of all of these interviews that are related to it, and you get the full scope. And in this, it's like back in the day, and I'm I'm sure you'll relate to this, remember when they had the official, like, soundtrack to a movie?
Rob Lee:It's almost like that, but for, you know, sort of the street art or the the the work that's out there. Mhmm. Yeah. Just like, oh, songs inspired by you know?
Cory Stowers:Yeah. It it very it's very, very much like that because, when you can when you're starting to create we're with the project we're working on now, the Humanity Wall Documentary, it's it's something that we're looking at in in that in that way where, yes, we're, working on, you know, recreating or reimagining a mural that was painted 36 years ago with the original artist. There's 32 years of history, with this wall, photographs, and things of that nature. And then we're because we're doing a documentary, we wanted to think about, like, how we were gonna score it. And so we are literally right now, you know, compiling a soundtrack that is, you know, all DC music of the era that will then be put out, like, on a vinyl record, you know, with the with the same branding and be tied in and closely with the, with the final documentary project.
Cory Stowers:Stand alone book, you know, with all of that material. And so these are ways that we can extend the content and extend the experience for people, who may not, you know, have ever even walked up and seen the mural. You know? But, in this way, you know, it's not just we're just gonna repaint the mural. We're going to document the whole process.
Cory Stowers:We're gonna edit it for you. We're gonna have have interviews with the artist. We're gonna share all of this stuff with you so that you then have the full story. Right? And it's not it's not left up to, to question.
Cory Stowers:And I think a lot of times, you know, with the with the things that when we create art, sometimes it's just out there. Right? And people are like, well, where does this come from? Why why is this here? You know?
Cory Stowers:As with my my mentor who started this the DC murals project many years ago, she had the question, who painted this? You know? And why? You know? Why is it here?
Cory Stowers:You know? So we'd like to, at this point, you know, start to offer up as many answers to questions or, you know, accessible, doors for people to get in and and learn about it as possible.
Rob Lee:That's great. And, you know, points to you because you just knocked out one of my questions, so shout out to you. You you're doing my job for me, so appreciate you on that. And, yeah, you know, that it's it's a package. Like, you want the full, you know, sort of experience.
Rob Lee:So it's close to the experience, the more flushed out version of it. And I love that. That that sounds, like, really cool, and that's, it seems like it's almost, in some ways, for folks that are, like, I I guess, fans of it from a cultural standpoint, from an artist standpoint, from a anthropological standpoint, it feels like low hanging fruit, but then it feels like so next level because people aren't really going that extra length to say, you know what, this is actually the arc and the trajectory here, here, not just an anniversary thing. So, no, we're revisiting this, and we're bringing it back, and we're doing it in this way. We now have the opportunity and the technology to bring it up to this level, which, you know, as you mentioned 30 plus years ago, though those things weren't there.
Rob Lee:The resources weren't there. So now in a way of preserving culture and extending culture, we we're we're here now. You know?
Cory Stowers:Yeah. And I I have the conversation, with many of the folks who were like, oh, you should come in, put an exhibit in here, or you should, you know, you should do a show like this. And I was like, we can absolutely do absolutely do that, as long as as long as we can also do a book, as long as we can also do, like, a standalone website. Because after we have these 30 days or whatever in your gallery, then all that stuff just goes away. Or what happens to it after that?
Cory Stowers:Right? But when you start to put some of these other pieces in the play that you make sure that there's access to the story beyond those 30 days and beyond what it the effort that you're gonna put into, you know, putting that on for 30 days. I mean, when I told when I told, you know, the folks that I was doing the documentary, they're like, oh, that's gonna be great. I was like, yeah. And there's gonna be a book, and there's gonna be, you know, there's gonna be all of this other stuff.
Cory Stowers:And they're like, are you gonna do that? And I was like, well, if I'm gonna go through the process of doing the documentary, I might as well have the stuff here for a book. I'm gonna do all the writing. I'm gonna have all the collateral. I'm gonna do a book.
Cory Stowers:You know? It's just it's a no brainer. They were like, well, if you have the documentary, why would you do a book? I was like, well, sometimes people like to flip through a book and and look at pictures, you know, like, as opposed to their, you know, watching it on the screen. And they're you know, for for me, like, I've been making as much as much of the stuff as I can interactive.
Cory Stowers:So just in the same way that we took the murals and we put, we put, you know, embedded content in there. I'm putting embedded content in the in the in the book also, right, where you can, you know, scan on the book and you can get, and you can get a, you know, video popping up on the screen that will give you more context to the passage you're reading or additional images that's related to the artist that you're looking at, because you can only fit put so much on a page. Right? And so in that way, I think we're trying to redefine, like, how people are absorbing this media and giving it to them in multiple ways and multiple versions. I think it it helps because everybody accesses information differently.
Rob Lee:Yeah. And and I think it's it's 2 things. Before moving to this last question, it's 2 things that I I think about with it. You know, 1, I think about my own content, and I find that you know, I'm coming up on 800 interviews. Right?
Rob Lee:And, you know, I'll yeah. And That's not a joke. Thank you. And and it's it's a thing where you're like, oh, yeah. Well, I've interviewed this person.
Rob Lee:They say, oh, well I was like, no. You haven't listened to this when I talk to sponsors or so on, potential sponsors. You can reach out to this person who did the interview. Here it is right here. Happy to do it again, but here's the interview right here.
Rob Lee:And, you know, when I talk with guests, especially when it's, like, museums and and so on, institutions, I'm, like, where is this gonna live at in addition to where it's living at here, you know, being able to extend it? This is part of the story that you guys are telling. I'm just helping facilitate it. And another thing that that comes to mind, this is more pop culture oriented, but I I think of, those collectors edition DVDs. I need the full scope.
Rob Lee:I need the companion piece. One of my favorite gifts, I got, like, Robocop Steelcase with the booklet and the set photos. I'm like, we're out here. This is great. Or even, you know, video game.
Rob Lee:You know, people always would joke about, oh, the new bad news out, new in quotation because it's just the same game. And, you know, they might change the jersey or something here and there, but it's essentially the same game. I think you're you're you're thinking of a lifespan. Like, you know, where does this extend outside of folks that can come there and see this mural in person? Can they take this piece with them?
Rob Lee:Can this experience continue and extend?
Cory Stowers:Yeah. Totally. Totally. And, you know, knowing I think knowing as much as I do in terms of, like, how quickly these things can go away, you know, like, in terms of, like, you know, murals just disappear off the street. You know?
Cory Stowers:So, yeah, you have a picture of it. You know what I'm saying? That's that's that's that's a great that's a great, you know, start. But how much more can you have in the in the, you know, kind of, like, in the archives, you know what I'm saying, to support that? And so as we're going forward and whatever we're doing, we're, you know, complete documentation behind the scenes, everything.
Cory Stowers:There's camera shooting. You know, we're recording everything. And in that way, we're gonna we're going to, you know, make it, make make those things, you know, like, more accessible to folks. And I know when I'm a fan of something, I think, like, you just referenced, you know, like, when I'm a fan of something, I wanna know all of it. You know what I'm saying?
Cory Stowers:I wanna know how it was made. I wanna know wanna know what mistakes were made. I wanna know, like, you know, all of that stuff. So, as I as I'm creating content, I'm thinking about that. And I know that, you know, for things that I love, you know, I'm I'm, you know, assembling all of those pieces that way.
Rob Lee:So and thank you. So when it when it comes to assembling, I I wanna talk about this sort of last question, as it relates to to the east, the rise of public murals in east of the river. What was the inspiration behind it? And I I see that it had the accompanying book or has an accompanying book as well, so talk a bit about that, as we close out the portion. For sure.
Cory Stowers:So, again, just just to reference my mentor, doctor Perry Frank, when I first started to become, conscious of the murals that were around, in the city, and she started to really educate me, towards, you know, who the artist were that created them. She she told me, and I didn't I it didn't register with me then, but she told me she's like, you know, this all starts in Chicago. You gotta go back to Chicago. And I didn't really understand what she meant, until, you know, we started, we started along this path or to the east. And I was trying to, create a timeline of the earliest murals east of the river.
Cory Stowers:And again, she she brought back my attention back. She's like, you really need to go back to Chicago, you know, before you start talking about this. And so, and what she meant was is that, you know, and and one of the reasons why we want I'm sorry. Let me backtrack just a little bit because the question you asked is is is why. I a lot of people love murals.
Cory Stowers:They have no clue where they came from. In in the last 10, 15 years, it seems like they just came out of nowhere. But the truth of the matter is is that the, the timeline of murals evolving in the United States can be traced back, and it can be traced back to, the summer of 1967 in Chicago. And that's when a group of artists called the organization for black American culture brought out the first street mural in in Chicago, in West Side Chicago. That wall essentially sparked off what we know now as the contemporary movement.
Cory Stowers:From 67 till now, it's a a gradual evolution of that tradition that came out of Chicago. That mural, you know, inspired more than 500 kind of response murals from various parts of the United States and around the world. And over the course of 2 decades, inspired artists to to go out and take their artwork out of the studio, out of the gallery, and onto the streets. When when I started researching it, the that wall in particular, it pointed me in a very interesting direction. It pointed me back to Howard University.
Cory Stowers:And in the conversations that were happening between Elaine Block and, and, Herring in the art department and Howard University's kind of formative, you know, 19th century you know, 20th century rather years. Like, you know, talking, like, 1930 through, like, 19 fifties, where there was this real kind of cultural, battle between the art department and the philosophy department. Elaine Locke was of the thought that there needed to be a, a African American identity distinctive in visual arts that set it apart from the European traditions. Hering thought that, you know, art needed to be good and needed to be good by x standards. And so there was this kind of fight happening within that that that, department.
Cory Stowers:There was a call really that was being sent out to, to black artists to really respond back to and create what was gonna be the visual identity of black Americans. And, in my research, what I found was the the call was answered by the creation of public murals. We're talking about, black figurative art on the streets, patterning iconography, things that were not in the lexicon of American visual arts prior, right, started to come into into the public space. And there's a lot of, you know, there's a lot of reasons for for how it happened. And, obviously, there was, you know, there was just this, you know, intense fight for racial equality in the late sixties that really was kinda pushing all of these things to the forefront.
Cory Stowers:But when it spilled out onto the streets, that's when we really started to see a a deep impact in, in the reception of of of this kind of work. And it echoed here to Washington DC from Chicago here within the 1st summer. You know, and then the research that that we presented in the 2 of these book, you'll see, you know, the very first mural painted in Washington DC that we've been able to, you know, that we've been able to kind of find evidence of. It was painted by, Pride Inc, which was Marion Barry's organization during their, their pilot summer youth, employment program. We found early murals painted at the Anacostia Community Museum in Southeast also in 67.
Cory Stowers:And then we see, you know, how, you know, murals then became, you know, a fixture in the city, downtown first and then throughout the neighborhoods. But one thing that we noted was even though that this this, artwork was coming from this very specific place in terms of, who had been creating it and why it had been created, You know, by the time we got to the end of the seventies, we weren't really seeing that those murals anymore. We were seeing more decorative murals. You know what I'm saying or corporate art murals, art for art's sake, not really like Anything with any sort of identity or any sort of messaging to it. And there was a very small group of artists in Washington DC that were operating, that realized that there was really no murals happening east of the river.
Cory Stowers:There was really none of this stuff was being brought over to the community where it it it should be, you know, having the most impact. And so the to the east story is really about just the that evolution of public murals in that space and how these culture workers then took that practice and cemented it into the east side of the, of the city. Particularly, artists like Alexander Madison Junior, Big Al, Carter, Cheryl Foster, Rick Freeman, Roger Turner. And these artists are, master level fine artists. Even even in their early years, they were rare very, very good, you know, for, you know, being out on the side of a building painting with, like, house paint.
Cory Stowers:You know? They're they're creating these dynamic dynamic murals in the center of the community that are really reinforcing cultural identity and cultural messaging, in a time, you know, for the most part that the city was going through it. You know? Like, and that, you know, the fact that we would have people out working with large groups of kids to create these murals still seem pretty, unique and new. And so it it was very important for for me to dive as deep as I could into that story and to present it, through images in the gallery, but then also through, through the book.
Cory Stowers:And one of the things that that kinda surprised me, like, I had never seen anybody make the through line, you know, between, you know, kind of this call for a distinct, you know, identity, a black identity in the visual arts and the immersion of murals because it was it would to me, it seemed very, very clear, that this is how it happened. And, you know, I don't wanna get bogged down into the details, and and and I think I'd I'd let you know that if you wanted to check it out, you know, there's a link at the, dcmuralsproject.org, website where you can just download the PDF. But there are a lot of characters that play into the whole story, how they overlap, and how how they all kinda coincide, circulating around Howard University, for the better part of, like, 3 or 4 decades and and really kinda creating the, the template for what we know as public art today.
Rob Lee:That's great. And and I'll absolutely, include that in the show notes because, you know, why not? And, yeah, because I I I was typing it in, and I was like, alright, you know, I'm just going to find this, put it in the show notes at my own, at my own pace. But that's thank you. You know, it's it's it's important, I think, to be able to cover and to be able to cover and document sort of the history of why things are the way they are, why, you know, sort of art is where it's at.
Rob Lee:Like, people have questions and being able to have some sort of, you know, like, big history in the background from it because I'm very I'm very, very curious, and I'm very protective of sort of, like, culture and where it goes because as we go further along, you know, things are suppressed, things are changed, and then you start losing the meaning behind certain things. So, you know, the work that it seems that you're very attached to and very into is working to combat that through, you know, sort of murals and through sort of documenting of of that work.
Cory Stowers:Mhmm. Absolutely. And and that tradition is the the thing that I we are missing a lot of particularly, as the murals have become more popular, you know, that the the reasoning for them and the, you know, kind of the thematic properties of them have shifted and changed in such a way that people are just like, oh, it's murals. That's great. Well, not all not every mural is good for community.
Cory Stowers:You know? And I mean, going you know, that I have conversations with folks a lot. They're like, oh, you know, gotta talk about funding. Right? Like, oh, of course, you know, this company will pay you x amount of dollars to paint, you know, a mural over here.
Cory Stowers:Well, yeah, but they want me to paint a Heineken mural, and they want me to paint it in the, you know, you know, in the community that's, you know, that that has, like, 4 liquor stores, and I'm not I'm not we're not doing that. You know? Sometimes you have to, you know, kinda like look at, you know, the things and and make a a discernible, you know, a discernible decision whether or not this is gonna be something that's good for you, good for the community, whatever have you. So we have a a lot of that. People who come to me all the time, be like, oh, can you paint this?
Cory Stowers:You know? And it's and and I know the neighborhoods that I'm in, and I know the people that are neighborhood, and I know that this is not something that they're gonna wanna look at, you know, all every day of the year. For me, murals take up such key spaces in a community that you have to really, really, you have to really, really curate those with the thought of what, you know, what it's going to do to the face of the community. So, and I feel that way the, the stories of the artists that that really held that tradition to heart that brought the the great works that we know of in the city to to light. Their their legacy and their work deserves that kind of, scrutiny.
Cory Stowers:You know? And if I'm gonna continue the tradition in terms of the bringing work into the community or telling the stories, then I'm gonna put that much, you know, then I'm gonna put that much, you know, towards it, making sure that we get it right.
Rob Lee:And that's, and I'm glad I'm glad you cooked right there because that's a good spot for us to kinda close out on on the, the real portion of the interview. So I got 3 rapid fire questions for you, and, you listen to a pod. You know how it goes. Don't overthink these questions. Alright.
Rob Lee:Here's the first one. In this scenario, money is not an I know we've been talking about funding in this podcast. Money is not an object here. Blank checks, brother. So what is the vacation destination you would go to?
Rob Lee:Money is no object. Where do you wanna go?
Cory Stowers:Money is no object. You know, I'm, I have a lot of, friends and family in in, in Thailand and spent I've spent a fair amount of time there over the last 10 years. I would say Thailand. However however, I'm going to say that I would love to go and spend time in Africa and just, like, you know, travel around, meet people, learn. Because that's one space where I've just I've just never my feet have never touched the soil, and and I would love for that to to be a that would be my dream vacation.
Rob Lee:That's that's that's a great answer. It's a huge space. Like, I I I've been thinking, you know, like, I've not I've only been at this country once, and it was on a cruise. I was like, that barely counts. And I'm like, look, you know, I can't fade it.
Rob Lee:Like, I'm 64. Right? So the being on a plane for a long time is terrifying to me, like, my knees. I feel already I feel already in my knees, but, thinking of this trip to Japan because I've been studying Japanese, like, the last 240 days, and I I just wanna go there. I think I think I'll be a hit.
Rob Lee:I don't know. We'll see.
Cory Stowers:I think you're preparing every year to study and you know? And listen. All all you need is the right is is the right deal. You know what I'm saying? And then you're flying private jet there.
Cory Stowers:Right? So you have to worry about your needs.
Rob Lee:This is true. Here's the next one. This is this is, the destination based again. If you were stranded on a desert island, I don't know what where desert islands are at, what what are what are 3 items that you gotta have with you?
Cory Stowers:Three items that I have to have with me on a deserted island. We're talking strictly survival. I'm gonna need some sort of water purification apparatus. That's cool. Yeah.
Cory Stowers:I'm going to need a boat. I'm gonna need
Rob Lee:a boat. I
Cory Stowers:mean, you said 3 things, you know,
Rob Lee:3 things.
Cory Stowers:And I'm gonna need I'm gonna need to just have, you know, a a little photo album of my peoples, I guess. You know what I'm saying? Something something to look at, you know, pictures of the loved ones. You know? I don't know if that if I can only have one
Rob Lee:picture, but, you
Cory Stowers:know, that that that I I think I'll pay.
Rob Lee:It's it's like that thing of, like Yeah. This is this is what I'm doing it for. I got it back.
Cory Stowers:Right. Right. You need that inspiration. The to keep holding together.
Rob Lee:Yep.
Cory Stowers:I'm sure I'll find my own volleyball or something. You know? Coconut, I'll draw the face on. I'll have some friends.
Rob Lee:That's good. That's good. I'm just spearfishing just, like, just chucking and and dragging. You know? I because I gotta you gotta maintain this mess.
Rob Lee:So here here's the last one. Here's the last one. Since you're, you know, musically inclined, you're a musician, you're you're, you know, you're in that space, what is your theme song? You know, you've mentioned, musicians doing this pod as well, so, you know, I definitely wanna get that take. What is your your theme song, if you had one?
Rob Lee:That some of us don't.
Cory Stowers:So theme song Mhmm. Will definitely change depending on the season, but I will say for Yeah. Yeah. And, again, you know, like, depending on the season, it could be, you know, cold as ice by MLP. It could be success at Joe.
Cory Stowers:You know what I'm saying? Like, you know, these are things that are reoccurring, like, in my head playlist, you know. You know, and sometimes it'll be some softer stuff. But to be honest, you know, like, all heads realize for for many, many years is that wake up song.
Rob Lee:I dig it. That's good. So that's that's kinda it for the pod, for the real questions and the the fake questions as people call it some people call it the BS questions. I just say they're rapid fire questions. So there's 2 things I want to, 1, thank you for coming on to the podcast and spending some time.
Rob Lee:We've been we've made it happen, and and 2, I want to invite and encourage you to share with the listeners where they can follow you, where they can follow your work, social media, website, all of that good stuff. The floor is yours.
Cory Stowers:For sure. You can follow me on all platforms at rockcreeklee, rockcreeklee. You can find me on all digital streaming platforms under that name. If you wanna follow some of the work we're doing with DC murals, you can follow that at dcmuralsproject.org. If you wanna follow what we're doing with the Humanity Wall, follow us or check out the humanitywall.com.
Rob Lee:There you have it, folks. I wanna again thank Corey Lee Stowers for coming on to the podcast and, spinning the yarn with me. And I'm Rob Lee saying that there's art, culture, and community in and around your neck of the woods. You've just got to look for it.
