Dr. David O. Fakunle: Using Storytelling to Address Issues of Race and Mental Health

Rob Lee: Welcome to The Truth in This Art. I am your host, Rob Lee, and this is your source for conversations at the intersection of arts, culture, and community. My guest today is a Baltimore native and a self-described mercenary for change, combining research, education, and the performing arts to address issues of race and mental health. Please welcome Dr. David O. Fakunle. It's a pleasure to have you here. Like I said, we push this back a little bit. You know, I'm glad we're able to get to this point. And, you know, it's great to have a brother on, if I'm being honest, you know, about it.
Dr. David O. Fakunle: I'm saying with the widow, you know, feeling the proud. I'm not going to call us Marines, but I trust me, I get it. As the son of a Marine, I appreciate that. I'm like, well, having an uncle and a cousin who's a Marine, there you go. I'm like, I'm with you. But I'm used to it. Honestly, I've been used to it since I was in sixth grade, man. That was my introduction to white people. So being the one, the only, the few, the representative, the exemplar, the talented temp, right? We can go into all those terminologies. I'm like, yeah, that's been me. And I'm used to it. And I understand why. I'm in that place and I understand what my responsibility is in that place.

Rob Lee: So give us, you know, a glimpse because like I'm, I'm doing the research, you know, I've won over my questions four different times. You got the fourth iteration of my question. So, but could you give us a glimpse into your, your journey? You know, I see, you know, it's research, it's education, it's performing arts, you know, you're, you're into like the, the Baker arts, I think you're out there in the arts council. It's just like, I'm just seeing you. So. You know, talk a bit about sort of, you know, what were you starting like, you know, like your journey starting from your your early life and the inspirations that have been pivotal in shaping your path?

Dr. David O. Fakunle: I was born into a family of creatives. I think that was certainly step number one. And I was born at a time where, certainly on my mother's end, there was an intentionality around embracing Blackness. So even before me, I got to go back to, I think, the 70s. when my mother was working at Morgan State University, and she met a man by the name of Dr. Elmer Martin. Dr. Elmer Martin was chair of the social work department at Morgan State University at the time. My mother helped him type his dissertation, so they may have been connected even before he became chair of the department. Point being, my mother credits Dr. Elmer Martin with being the man who introduced her to what it meant to truly be Black. My mother grew up in the 50s, civil rights movement. She was being told that she was anything else but human, whole, all that kind of stuff. When she met Dr. Martin is when she was introduced to the truth of what it meant to be of the African diaspora. And he did it in a way that was humble, that was engaging, that was… affirming, especially for someone of his intellectual stature. And that changed my mother forever. And it changed her, and it ultimately changed her children, me and my sister. So having that knowledge of self, that understanding of who I was, was huge. It wasn't perfect, because I definitely still had my bouts of identity crises, just understanding who I was meant to be in this world. But one of the things I was fairly certain of is, as a Black person, as a Black boy, then a Black man, I knew what that actually meant, and not what society was dictating. The creative side showed up in so many different ways. My mother is a singer. My grandmother was a singer. I was just talking about it today. She was so good a singer that she got a partial scholarship to Peabody, of all places. My family couldn't afford the other half, so she couldn't go. But as my mother would tell me, she never stopped singing. never stopped singing. So that creative energy is in my blood, right? It's in my blood, it's in my genes, it's in the spirit that's been passed down. And so through that and through the National Great Blacks and Whites Museum that my godparents founded, Dr. Elma Martin and Dr. Joanne Martin, I had opportunities to explore creative practices and cultural practices. So African drumming, African dance, storytelling, theater, all of it really came through the museum and just, again, being a platform by which the people could share their authentic creativity and their authentic cultural expressions. And that followed me to Friend School of Baltimore, where I went from middle and high school and continue to cultivate my creativity. So picked up a lot of choral arts there and played in a band. So I've always been an artist, right? It's been that part of me that's never gone away, even through college, still drumming, still telling stories. Eventually, when I got to grad school at Hopkins, that's where it merged with public health, especially the storytelling part. And that was a revelation. I tell people, I say that word very intentionally, it was a revelation to know that I could use storytelling in a public health context. You couldn't tell me crap after that. I knew what I wanted to do. Right. Because it made sense. Everything made sense. It wasn't just that there was a place for it, but for me personally, I felt good doing it, right? It was natural, right? I've been a professional storyteller since about nine to 10 years old. I met Murray Carter Smith at the National White, Blacks & Whites Museum. She took me under her wing. My first performance was at the World Trade Center in downtown Baltimore at 10 years old with her. So it was part of my destiny, you know, and I say that word intentionally too. It took time for me to figure it out because I thought I was supposed to be anything but a storyteller or an artist. but it was my destiny to be a creative and one that applied it within public health. And really, ever since then, man, the best way for me to tell people what I do is the universe aligned things in a way beyond my imagination. Because with everything, for the majority of the things I do, yes, I work hard and I work smart, but a lot of it is easy. and natural and organic. And I've gotten to a point where, yes, people are interested in storytelling and public health. They're interested in the intersectionality of arts, culture, and health. And on top of that, they're just interested in me. And I never thought I'd be that guy. I mean, I never thought I'd be the guy that people just wanted to be around and listen to like this. And I'm very humble and very grateful about it. But I know people just love to hear me talk. Like I'm just rambling.

Rob Lee: And I love that. Thank you. That's one of the better intros we get where You know, I like I'm not humble now. It is it is one of those things where, you know, I've been around and thank you for sharing, for one. And I've been around like. being creative and doing stuff like, you know, I've said on this podcast before, I was like an MC, a master's of ceremony at like five for like my middle school, elementary school, preschool graduation. And I look like I was like 10 because I was always a big kid. And that idea terrifies me now because over the years you're told to be less than, you're told to be smaller, you're a black boy, so you should only do this. And why don't you play in sports? Because you're big or whatever the thing is. You know, I always kind of gravitated, you know, at City College, you know, always kind of gravitated towards sort of the creative stuff, like doing sports or even considering sports was something that someone took an interest in me and he said, you should try this out. And I was like, sure, I'm curious. But really, what was I felt that I was interested in? And it's sort of that, you know, delving between what's of interest and what's more like curiosity focused. And they can they can overlap. But definitely finding something creative was was something for me. So in doing this, like when I tell people I've been doing this for 15 years and like podcasting exists that long, it's like the storytelling has. but sort of archiving has, radio has, things of that nature. And encountering it, it's almost like you hear these different rap lines. It's like, oh, do you have a jump shot? You know, all of these sort of different things. It's like, no, I just, I'm good on the mic. Oh, you rap? Nah. Well, you say, I'm going to the studio. So you, so you get this album coming out. No, I'm going to interview some people who are much more talented than me. That's what I'm going to do. But in speaking of sort of curiosity, I'm very curious about the term, the phrase, the sort of, maybe Nom de Plume is not quite it, but mercenary for change. Talk a bit about that, like delve deeper into sort of, you know, that identity and what it means like professionally and personally and sort of those perspectives. And I go by Smoke Daddy, but that has a whole different thing we might talk about later, but I go by Smoke Daddy. But for you, how does that even connect to the storytelling component as well?

Dr. David O. Fakunle: So that title, Mercenary for Change, that actually came out of an experience back in, I want to say 2016. I got the chance to go to the Aspen Institute. I was, it's crazy. I was considered a non-profit, what was the term? Non-profit leader. I wasn't even running a non-profit. Don't do that now. And I told her, I'm just a grad student, you know what I'm saying? And that came out of an opportunity with Salzburg Global Seminar. So the year before, I spent five days in Salzburg, Austria with creatives and changemakers is probably the better term. Changemakers from around the world, still just a grad student, still just doing my thing with storytelling. And that was definitely a point in my life where I'm like, what am I doing here? imposter syndrome like I don't belong is like people are actually like doing stuff doing stuff and I'm just I'm just a storyteller. But that experience was was life changing and it led to the experience at Aspen and in connecting with the other cohort members, you know, some of whom are great friends to this day. When I introduced myself, the best way that I could come up with was I'm a mercenary for change. And for me, that means that as mercenaries do, I like to get paid. No doubt about it. But you can pay me in two ways. You can pay me, obviously, in currency, or you can pay me in relationships. I'll take either because both are very valuable. Obviously, the relationships are much more valuable. To me, money is just a means to an end, but the relationships can be the end. I'm definitely a living testimony to that. It is about change. It's about making the world better. It's cliche and it's true. I want the world to be at least a little bit better than how I found it. And I would say more specifically, I want to make people's lives at least a little bit easier, having connected with me in some capacity. Because I can tell you as someone who is doing well in many of those objective metrics that people tend to use when determining whether life is good, I still got issues. That ain't ever going away. So we have plenty of examples of people who seemingly have everything and life is still hard. So I acknowledge that life is a challenge regardless of what your circumstances are. And then depending on those circumstances, it can be exacerbated. Nevertheless, we can all do something to make someone's life a little bit easier. That's what the lessons are from ancestors, right? From the elders. And try to make your life at least a little bit easier. up for you based on the experiences that they had. And that's what I aim to do. I know as a public health person how substantial the challenges are. They're systemic, they're structural, they're historic, they're all of that. So much of what I want to see, I may not see in my lifetime. I accept that. So what I can do I will do. And for me, what has risen to the top as the consistent way that I can make people's lives at least a little bit easier is to encourage them to tell their story. Don't sugarcoat it. Don't leave things out unless you want to leave them out. But the whole point is to be unapologetic about your life, your truth. Because that's what everybody wants to be. way down. But so many aspects of society, so many aspects of life don't encourage that. It doesn't cultivate that feeling of let me share the totality of who I am. I know that from experience. There are a lot of things I would have never told people 15 years ago. Now, I feel like I'm an open book. And it feels good to be an open book. It feels good to share what I'm thinking, what I'm feeling, how I'm navigating, and to encourage people to do the same. And ultimately, what they're looking for is trust. Right? Trust, comfort, lack of judgment, lack of misperception, all those type of things. And if I have any superpower, it would be that. Despite being, you say you 6'4", 280, I'm 6'2", 70. So I'm also a big boy, right? Defensive lineman? Yeah, exactly. That's what I'm saying. You can play the inside, I'll play the edge.

Rob Lee: But that's the thing, that's the thing, you know, where in doing this, like, this is where I'm at my most comfortable, right? And I find like, when I make something feel like it's a play, that's when I'm just comfortable just being me. Sometimes it's off color, sometimes it's just inaccurate, not the proper language and so on. But for the longest time, right, proper language in terms of, oh, that's not grammatically correct. And, you know, at times it's just like people get it. And then I find like this is a response I get from folks. And it's usually folks that look like me because I do IT. And you think like, oh, you're going to be some corny black dude. It's like, nah, I'm cooler than you. And, you know, then you hear this sort of delay and it's like, all right, that's actually really funny. I got that one a second later. That's really good. And it's the crossover thing. Like when folks ask about this podcast and sort of who I talk to and who I'm interested in, or even the process of editing this, when you hear the final cut of this, this is going to be essentially the conversation we had. It's not going to be, well, David said this, let me trim this part out. And I'm not going to do that. Why would I do that? It's taken away from the sentiment. Unless there's something you're like, yeah, you You know what? That's not quite accurate. That information is factually incorrect. Not, this is a part of me I want to suppress, or what have you. I try not to really do that. Now, I'm not on the other side too often, right? And this is an example. So that thing I was telling you about before we got started about the per walk and all of that, I shared that. I shared that at a creative mornings, right, which was a great experience. Got to be on stage telling the truth. The theme was the truth. And I expressed the truth through different quotes and different anecdotes. Right. So. I had another offer because someone was there. They wanted me to come speak for a day, you know, kind of sharing, you know, the story, really dug it. You know, they wanted to edit my conversation. They were like, oh, so yeah, the Trump thing is one of the reasons you started as a, you know, as a, as a F you to Trump. I was like, it was, they said, can we keep that part out? I was like, so the Genesis of why I started doing this particular thing. I don't know if this is a fit. I was like, you know, and it's I understand having the directors cut, but I don't I don't really want editors. And I think the authenticity in storytelling is so, so important. So for you, what just generally you can make it even more pointed, but more generally, what makes for good storytelling for you?

Dr. David O. Fakunle: Ooh, what makes for good storytelling is authenticity. To me, where I've gotten in my skill as a storyteller is once I understand the story, the characters, the structure, the plot, all those things, then in the telling of the story, I can reflect my personality. And I think the evolution of my storytelling really is a great way to see the evolution of my personality. So I am unapologetic. So when people hear me tell my story, they are seeing, they are hearing, they are feeling me. And I would say any great storyteller is doing that. It's just like any creative, right? Any creative who is sharing the essence of who they are through their medium, through their platform, that makes for the best story. So whether you're saying it out your mouth, whether you're painting it, whether you're dancing it, sculpting it, whether you're editing it, right? All those things, to me, the best are when it is a derivative of the person. And I mean that in the best sense, right? It's almost like a piece of them, right, is in that creative expression. So to me, that's what makes for the best storytellers. And certainly, there are those who are naturally gifted. So I tell people, the first great storyteller in my life was my aunt, my mother's older sister. And much of her stories, obviously all of her stories, revolve around her life. She has been in recovery. for almost 40 years, right? And she can tell you the stories of the lowest of lows and the highest of highs. And it's not just the genuine nature of the stories themselves, but the way she expresses, like she gets her soul into it, right? And she's told these stories over and over and over again. I grew up in the rooms of Narcotics Anonymous in support of my aunt's recovery. So I spent Saturday afternoons listening to women tell their stories of addiction and recovery, right? Raw stories. Raw stories. And even as a child, I noticed that anytime it came around to my aunt's anniversary of her sobriety, the room was packed, right? Everybody was in that small, dingy room to listen to her tell her story. People who already know her story, mind you, Like, my mother knows her story better than probably anybody. And many people with whom she was in the healing process, you know, concurrently. but it's the way she conveyed the messages of her truth. Even as a child who had no business being in an NA meeting, okay? It resonated, it resonated. So, and I know knowing my aunt better now as an adult than I did as a child, I was like, that's her, right? The reason she's a great storyteller is because that's her. And she's just conveying the message that is her life story. So for me, that's that's what makes a great teller of a narrative. Again, no matter what the medium is. It's as reflective of you. As you can get probably the best version of you in many ways, right? So that's those are those are the stories that kind of, you know, capture my attention.

Rob Lee: Thank thank you for that. It makes me think when and I think you were keying in on it when I think about the title of this, you know, it's going on branding, getting graphic design work. It's like there's truth in this art. It's not. Now, granted, initially it felt like it was a bit. It was something I heard in a Kevin Smith podcast. And he was just right. He may ask truth in this art, just standing on this soapbox or what have you. And I was like, that's ridiculous. But as I think about it, it's like. what resonates? Do I feel like this is a real person? Do I feel like this is a real story? Where do I connect that? Is there truth in this? And whatever that artistic discipline is. And I have to really, in these 700 plus episodes now, really wrestle with that and think through that. And not say something that was like an inside joke and that was a bit, but really, does this make sense? And initially, you know, sort of the first, let's say, 100 episodes of this podcast, it was called Getting to the Truth in This Art. And I was like, how do we, how do we get there? And it was really, I want to show the city, Baltimore, you know, having all of these talented folks and you know how, you know, certain folks say vibrancy. And I'm like, can we come up with a different word? Use chat GPT, different word, please. And. You know, we talk about that and it's like, sure, that's fine. That's that's there. But what is the truth that's baked into these stories that we love so much? You know, and there are instances where, you know, I do these interviews and folks are saying, man, we really love it. You know, and it's folks that might be from one of those 503C, you know, sort of setups. They love it, but they don't want to fund it. Oh, yeah. They love this piece of it. But can you talk about this maybe in a different way now? I kind of move them to the wayside. You know what I mean? I don't really. But when I talk to folks that are guests, those are the people that I like. Those are the people that it matters. Those are the people that in some way, shape or form, you know, you know, Baltimore is sometimes you don't know somebody.

Dr. David O. Fakunle: Yeah.

Rob Lee: is that. And if I see people, I'm like, hey, we're kind of friends. Let's build off of this. Hey, let's get a let's get a cocktail. Let's get a coffee. And it's building because we did it at exchange. I'm truthfully interested and curious in what this person does, not just for what their work is. You know, the thing for the clicks I'm interested in was the thinking behind it. Who's the person behind it? And then they're being vulnerable. A lot of times it's folks who have never talked about their art. who've never been considered to be serious about their art, that they're sharing their story. So my my job is at minimum, give them a platform and add, you know, and my goal is to do it in a way that shows them in their best light and their most authentic, true self.

Dr. David O. Fakunle: Yeah, absolutely. And a lot of people, not just creators, but people in general. Have not been genuinely asked what their story is.

Rob Lee: Yeah.

Dr. David O. Fakunle: I do it all the time, right? So. when people have that opportunity to reflect there, yeah, there's a lot that they have to navigate. And among that is feelings, right? The emotions that they're navigating as they look back in their narrative. And that's the premise of one of the things I do with Discover Me, Recover Me. It's about giving people that platform to say, your story is a story. Can't change the past. Like we say it all the time, like the past is gone, the future's not promised, you only got today. 100% true. So you can look back at your past and you can take the moment to recall the journey that got you to this point. So when people ask me, when you asked me that question about how'd you get here, the more that time has passed, the more fascinating the story is, Because I can tell you, if you asked me that same question in 2024, yeah, so if you asked me that 10 years ago, I would have had some clarity. Sure. But it would have still been like, I don't know how I got here. Now, I know exactly how I got here. It took time for the truth to be revealed, right? And now that the truth has been revealed, I've got, at least in this part of my life, I've got clarity, right? Peace of mind. Like, I know why I'm here. I know what I'm supposed to be doing. And I think the results of that is why it feels so comfortable, right? Even in places that, yeah, are uncomfortable for others and uncomfortable in general. For me, it's fine because I know who I am. The question is, do you? And I feel comfortable getting people to that place because it's for their benefit. Like, it's not me being high and mighty and pretentious. It's like, no, I want you to feel what I'm feeling. Because when you have this true embrace of who you are, it feels fucking great. Yeah, great, because this is truly is a vibe right yeah people can hear it in your voice they can see it on your face, but it's a vibe that you give off it's an aura that you give off when you just have that full acknowledgement and appreciation of who you are. I want that for everybody because everybody will benefit, especially those who are the most marginalized, the most divested, the most ignored, the most suppressed, the most oppressed, the most persecuted, right? So it's like racism. Racism affects people of color the most, especially black folks, but it affects everybody. opposite, right? So storytelling, true storytelling, embracing yourself is good for everybody, especially for Black folks, because we, for generations, have been told we're anything but, right? Anything but, everything but. So I know that there are people in this city and everywhere around the world that just need to know, yes, as Jesse Jackson said, you are somebody. But don't just take it from Jesse Jackson. And know it for yourself. And that's the thing. So take it from a catchphrase, manifest it. And to me, the way of manifesting it is through authentic storytelling with other people. That's the other part too. Yes, you can do it on your own, but you're meant to do it with other human beings who have to remind everyone are navigating this thing called life just like everybody else.

Rob Lee: I noticed that Prince reference there. Thanks. But no, it's true. It's so true. And two things I want to comment on before I move into this next question, which is a good segue for what you were just touching on. One, early on, I had the opportunity to interview Dr. Martin in Blacks and Whites Museum, so that was really cool. And going back to your piece on Mercenary for Change, it's sort of a similar vibe in it when I'm doing this, right? Sort of the approach. I say maybe different terminology, but it's like, it's either funding or access. You know, it's the relationships. And that's the thing, like, you know, I've been told, why are you so ambitious? I was like, is that a bad thing? You know, what? Like, would you tell someone who doesn't have this aesthetic that? And, you know, it's interesting. And even the genesis of doing this, this podcast, and I had, I was speaking to someone about this recently. It's like, where I want this to go, I want to be able to help share stories of people that I find interesting. And they asked me about, how do you curate this? Does the person interest me? And what my interests are is baked in. It's going to be Black. It's going to be some people that are marginalized, some people that don't have, what's your work about? And when I go through it, it leads into sort of what questions I'm going to ask. And I hear things, and you're probably going to recognize this early on, you don't look like a podcaster. What does that even mean? Oh, wow, you're so good at this. Wow. I was like, oh, cool, cool. You know, the Hennessy is right here. Like, I know what you're going at. And like I told you, like the Capricorn energy comes wild when the ambition is talking. And, you know, I think what I want to do and this is where the sort of Aquarius side of things, I suppose, comes in. And it's similar to what you were touching on. I want everyone to have the opportunity to share their stuff, to feel like they've had that that that chance to do it their way without having to fit into some sort of, you know, layout and system or what have you. Sure, there's there's a layout here. There's some questions here. But I've been free jazzing for most of this because I'm like, oh, OK, you know how to talk. I know how to talk. Let's just talk versus. So question five, you know, it's It's stilted, and there's something lost in there. So going back into my structured questions, so in your view, speak a bit more on how storytelling as an art form, because I think, I did this series around comedy and the storytelling that goes into that as an art form. And it's not regarded as that because certain people are in it. So it's not an art form, but really it is. But to speak on how, you know, storytelling as an art form can contribute to understanding, addressing and perhaps dismantling some of these like complex or many of these complex like racial issues, like from from your vantage point and, you know, connecting to like public health. You know, that's that's huge, because, you know, I don't like being sold a bill of goods. You know what I mean? Like, Oh, some of this health stuff, y'all designed this this way? Oh, we're supposed to have these issues because you made it that way. And when you see it, you have that awareness and that knowledge of it. You're like, damn it. So speak a bit more of that.

Dr. David O. Fakunle: What I realize, and with us coming from being in the same space of public health, specifically Hopkins, I recognize that the majority of humans on this planet aren't explaining the journey of their health and well-being through equations, be they linear or logistic, Poisson or one of the other ones. They aren't explaining it that way. They aren't looking at the relationships between variables and confounders and mediators and moderators and this quote, unquote, objective way. Nine times out of 10, what they can tell you is their story. So for as much as I think it is, and maybe not moral is the right, it's the human way to do it. It's just a strategy because I'm getting the thoroughness of data, the thoroughness of information when I'm allowing for qualitative methodology. And I know that qualitative methodology is a dirty word. I mean, I was there for four years. I never took a qualitative course. I think there was one, right? And maybe I'm glad I never took it. You know, nothing against the instructors, just I'd be curious now. Maybe now I take it because I'm solid in my qualitative approach. I'd be curious the way they're teaching Hopkins students to look into qualitative approaches. Again, through living experience, not just when I became a public health professional, but again, this is the life journey making sense. If I wanted to understand the totality or the depths of addiction, I heard it. I listened to it. And it was nothing but stories, no equations, no numbers, stories, a bunch of stories. So if I wanted to count the number of people in a sample, I think it was pretty robust. pretty robust numbers wise, but the quality of the data was what made the difference. That's what I learned from. And to me, it just made sense. We talk about mixed methods all the time. At least, I heard it all the time at Hopkins and other institutions, but where's the mix? And again, the mixed methods people were few and far between. And so I don't think I would have ever had the confidence to be so declarative about qualitative methodology and qualitative research and qualitative data, if not for that living experience of actually doing it, right? It wouldn't have been a class where I'm reading something or, you know, reviewing a paper or whatever that would have made me so convinced. But the kinesthetic learning, right, actually engaging in the practice of applying storytelling to a public health issue, that being substance use disorder, was so enriching for me that it was like, I was, again, I was a believer. And then from that point on, it was really about figuring out the, what else could we do, right? So it started with using it as a healing practice, right? Giving people the space to share their story so that they could use it as an emotional foundation for their recovery. Because one of the things that I recognize in conjunction with my learning at Hopkins is that, yeah, you need to change the behavior. Stop using the drugs. Start there. That's an important part. You have to change your environment. Sometimes you can't be in the same places that you were before because it's conducive to the behavior of using substances. You also have to change how you feel. And that was the part that was always absent from any of the drug epidemiology work that I was around. And I told the clients when I first started this project is, if you all came to Hopkins and talked about your experiences dealing with substance use disorder and recovery, the only things that they would find valuable, and we're talking about drug epidemiologists and just drug researchers, would be your sex, your gender, your race, not even your age, your age range, and the fact that you are either a current or former drug user. And I asked them pointedly, is that all there is to you? No, they all said no. And in my mind, I'm thinking about my Aunt Val, right? How dare you think that my mother, my Aunt Val is just an age range, a sex, a gender, a race, and a former drug user. She's way more than that. And I have a lifetime of data to prove it. So there was certainly that motivation of humanizing and affirming the humanity of people that were very close to me because, again, I grew up in that space of the junkies. I grew up with the addicts. I grew up with them. They were my friends. They were family. So I knew them as humans. Who just happened to use drugs? And then when I got to Hopkins, I learned more about the drugs themselves. And that was what tied in the importance of environment. One of my mentors said it best. Like, if you grow up in an environment with piss poor education, you are dehumanized based on the color of your skin, based on the type of chromosome configuration you got. You don't have a place to walk and see grass or a tree or water, right? You see what I'm saying? You have all these products that are artificial in abundance, right? So if you're dealing with all that on a consistent basis, of course you'd use drugs. And even if you don't, you still use drugs, right? We're human. We like drugs, OK? I will give Hopkins credit because I was very, I'll say I was very bougie about drug use, you know, until I got to Hopkins because I still kind of saw it as that moral, you know, that moral decision, like, oh, this is a reflection of you as a person. But when I got to Hopkins, full credit to them, I changed my mind and saw, no, it's a product of circumstance, right? Then by the grace of God, go I, right? If I had those collections, I'd be using, By any objective measure, I still use drugs. So my point is, we as humans like to alter our mind state. What is the reason for that? And if you have circumstances that are conducive to wanting to alter your mind state, because the reality sucks, I get that I understand I think empathy and understanding was some of the two biggest things that I learned of all places at Hopkins when it came to drug use. And I think it made me even more resolve to. manifest that empathy and understanding through creating a platform, just like you're doing with this podcast, creating platforms for people to tell their story, right? If they get anything from it, wonderful. But I know just telling your story in itself is healing. And then if you have the opportunity to explore it further with other people who can be, you know, look at it differently from their perspective as opposed to yours, there's a collective learning that happens. And the result is individual and collective foundations from a social emotional standpoint for healing right you are reminded that yes you are a good person. And good people make a decision I want to say bad decisions like I'm trying to even not use but make decisions that are not healthiest for them. Everyone does it. That's the point. Everyone does it. So no, you are not different in that way at all. It can be that the consequences led to unhealthy results that brought you to this point, but you are no different than anybody else. Not just from that standpoint, on the other side, that you are a reflection of these qualities that show the best of who you are, and those things never left. They may have been dormant, which can happen when you're dealing with, when you're struggling, right? It doesn't have to be drugs. It could be a lot of things that cause you struggle that makes you forget who you are. It happens all the time. So if you have the opportunity to be reminded, right, not introducing, but reminding people of the best of who they are, that change in mind and heart can go a long way to your holistic healing. Wow.

Rob Lee: Thank you. I think it's a thing that folks need to hear and understand a bit more. you have the moral thing that's there. And it's like, you know, we're in this culture where we want the news and we want to be able to diagnose and all of that stuff. And the minute that there's drugs or something involved and this person died, it's like, I knew it, junkie. And it's just like, that's not the whole of that individual. And also there is not a moral failing. It's none of those different things. And, you know, we look at certain things and normalize, especially, you know, from a public health standpoint, I think. where it's just like, this is fine. You know, for instance, you know, we know smoking is bad. We know smoking isn't good for you from a health standpoint, but you can go take a smoke break. I can't go and just say, let me let me let me do this acid real quick. Let me get it. I can't go do that. And it might be, you know, there's officially. Yeah. It's research and more conversations around like use of mushrooms and things of that nature that have different benefits for folks. And it's, it's interesting, like how we do it. And we started looking at the convergence of sort of business with these sort of illicit things. And it's like, if they can monetize it, then it's fine. If we can say, here's this drug that we haven't tested, Ozempic, and yeah, sure, let's just put it out there, you know, you tired, fatties, you know, here's some, here's some things. And it's, it's, it's a weird thing. And it's like, who said being, being overweight was, was bad. We attach these different sort of health components to it. You start looking at like the number, and this is, what the reality has been for me for the last six months or what have you, where I started thinking about it. People are telling me every day, commenting on my body, you're looking so skinny. I'm like, ugh, don't say that to me. If I look at the BMI and all of that stuff, these measurements to cause behavior and they look at you as just those numbers. You know, when they say, yo, you're supposed to be like 205. I'm like, yeah, I'm in 205. I was in middle school. What are you saying? Let's go down that road. But that's the thing. And I think in it, in touching back a little bit on the collection of data, right. I try not to lose my mind about because you will when it comes to like playing with these numbers. I'm like, you guys don't get a lot of research on black folk because we don't trust you. So you have a small sample size. You got a few folks that maybe have like some family thing, maybe predisposed to diabetes or whatever. And you're saying, yeah, this percentage of this population is like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You got to do better than that. And you just say, look, this is kind of inconclusive or really do the asterisk thing. But don't compare a population that you have really verified data on, a lot of that data, to one, a very small, like one-seventh of the country. And just say, yeah, there's higher rates. You can't do that. It's to push a certain story.

Dr. David O. Fakunle: Oh, absolutely. It's all it's all storytelling. Trust me. Research is storytelling. And I try to tell researchers this is and not to make them feel bad, but to embrace that and understand the power of what you are conveying to the audience that is the scientific community. You know, this whole idea, and this is the way I do it. And I thought about this as a grad student, because I would see faculty walking around. And sometimes you could tell on their faces when it was time to write a report for the grant, or they're in the process of writing another grant. You could just stay in a sunken place, right? You could just tell. Stay away from them, because they were in that place. And it was those moments where I wondered if they remembered why they were doing this in the first place. right? Like why, especially in my department, mental health, right? Usually, if people had the chance to go into the wide, it was usually connected with a person. It's like, yeah, you're studying this mental disorder or this mental health circumstance because of someone you know, because you want to understand them, right? And the point is, that's great. We're all motivated by some reason to be in this field. And more times than not, it's someone that we're motivated by, right? Someone who we love, someone that we knew, someone that we were aware of that became the personification of this health circumstance for which we want more clarity so that we can help them. And even if we can't help them, we can help people like them because they matter to you. Therefore, people who are dealing with this circumstance also matter to you. Right. Again, it's a reminder. It's just a reminder, because you can get caught up in, like you said, the weeds. You can get caught up in the minutia, especially with academia. And I combat this as much as humanly possible. I was very apprehensive about getting into academia like I am now as a tenure track professor, because I didn't want to lose sight of why I'm doing this in the first place. Being a professor is just a means to an end, right? It's a platform by which people will listen to me. It's a platform by which I can do stuff, all for the goal of making lives better, especially Black lives better, right? Unfortunately, I'm in a place where I can, I think, at least for right now, I do have that relative balance in terms of doing the academic thing because that's just unavoidable and still remaining, you know, maintaining my goal. And, you know, that's why I'm full-time at Morgan as opposed to being full-time at Hopkins. I just do my thing at Hopkins.

Rob Lee: I'm a Morgan alum, so I mean, whenever, when I saw that, I was like, shout out to you, shout out to you. And two things in there, I find like, you know, I've been doing this for a long time. I've been doing podcasting for a long time. And I mentioned that, eh, but as soon as I mentioned I've been an educator for like the last, let's say four months. Oh, it's like legitimate suddenly. And I'm like, yo, I do this though. I really do this. Or, You know, and this is this is just me. It's almost like what is it? It's almost it's almost like I was a Paul Mooney. It's like that bit. I want to be a nigga, but it's that when it comes to, you know, I say, say this was like, yeah, you got to have some goofy book come out. Everybody want to be a book, but everyone want to read a book, but nobody reads. It's like, which one is it? Like how? Like what? And I like the oral tradition. Like, I like the audio component. Like if, you know, in preparation for this interview, you're like, yeah, I got, you know, these are my books. Oh, somebody would do that. Sometimes people will send me their books to check it out, ask questions for, especially got something that's being released. I'm like, is there an audio book? Because that's the way that I consume it, and that's the way that I get it and retain it. But it's something about that, sort of how we're getting the story. So in these last two questions, in sort of capturing the stories, you know, How, how does that, that happen? Like, obviously I'm doing it through this and, you know, there is an archive component. There's over 700 interviews. So folks can go through it and, you know, maybe they've been interviewed more than once. And it's like, yeah, I remember I said this two years ago when I was mid, now I'm better, you know, now. So in capturing that, you know, with, like, you got data points and things of that nature, but in terms of capturing the stories in that way, what is sort of taken out of that that's used for maybe, like, action from the research standpoint?

Dr. David O. Fakunle: Right. I tell people… I make no… illusions to how straightforward storytelling can be. If you let it. Right? So you're right. I have so many books that people have given me that I have not touched. My job is to read. So I don't read for pleasure. I read because I get paid to read. OK? So maybe when I'm retired and on a beach somewhere, I'll read these books. Right now? Nah. I don't know, bro. Nah, not right now. I was like, I don't have the time or the energy to read. So for me, I I like that people can capture what I do in many ways. So I love telling people, you want to know about me? Google me. I'm happy with the story that the internet has about me, truly. If that changes, I'll stop saying Google me. But right now, you can Google me. And I tell people, go to YouTube and look me up. Because you'll see performances, you'll see workshops, you'll see presentations. the story's out there, openly, you know, for anyone to take whenever they feel like. And to me, that's the way I want it. Because storytelling is not proprietary. Storytelling is a human tradition. Yes, I represent the African oral tradition, because that's my circumstance. But the tradition of storytelling is as old as humanity itself. We've always told stories. So I never let anyone attribute this, any greater attention to storytelling to me. It's like, no, I'm just telling you what the ancestors have always done. And we're putting it within our context because, yes, time makes a difference. So the way we tell stories now are different than the way our ancestors told stories on the continent of Africa thousands of years ago. That's OK. The premise is still the same. And from that, if you are listening to what a person has to say, and for me, it's not just what comes out of their mouth, it's the look on their face, it's the movement of their bodies, it's their presentation, you'll get all the information that you need. So I do, this is what I love. I didn't choose to become a consultant. People decided I was a consultant. I love that. I love it. I absolutely love it. Because I think that's the way it's supposed to work. It's like, oh, we respect your knowledge and wisdom enough that can you help us with our thing? Absolutely, if you pay me. And they do. Wonderful. Moving on. But the point is, when they are particularly interested in storytelling or qualitative approaches, I lay out my scope of work. I say, here's the way I'm going to do it. I'm like, all I need is a recorder. Right? I'm just going to listen. You know, art is great because it transcribes automatically. Right? And I can listen to it. And if I have the technology, I can see people. I can see the experience that I had with the people in that moment. And from that, I can get all the information that I need. And my job is to weave the story. Right? So now I'm taking all of these individual narratives, and I'm giving you this composite narrative of what's happening, whatever the circumstances may be. Prime example. Back in 2021, I did work with the health system in the Bronx, New York. So this was around the time of COVID. And this health system was interested in why a lot of their health care workers were apprehensive or refusing to get a vaccine once made available. And these are people who saw the worst of COVID-19. They had patients who died. They had colleagues who died. They had family and friends. They knew how bad it was. And still, Nope, not doing it. So I go up to New York, a few times that summer to just be in a space with healthcare workers and asking them. Tell me your story. We're all dealing with this thing. And that's the beautiful thing about it is everybody had a COVID story. This was the one public health thing that everyone has been affected by. They can't ignore it. It was that monumental. So it allowed us to have this space of honesty and understanding. Because again, you say COVID, somebody's going to have some memories about that thing. And what it came down to was, like you said before, lack of trust. These were primarily black and brown people working in the Bronx. The Bronx is the borough of New York that has, you know, usually the largest immigrant population, the most turnover, people from the continent of Africa, the Caribbean, like that's where they go if they go to New York, they go to the Bronx. Lower income, you know, lower education, all the things that, you know, we can associate with health disparities and outcomes, but what it came down to is those healthcare workers didn't trust the employers they work for, they didn't trust the city government, they didn't trust the state government, they didn't trust the federal government. It was lack of trust and what it came down to ultimately was we as people of color, black and brown folks, we've had health issues for generations and you wouldn't even spit in our direction But now, all of a sudden, we've got this once-in-a-century pandemic, and you're begging us to take your help. Wouldn't that make you look sideways? So everything that you know about, like you said, the structures, and the system, and the intentional design behind a lot of things, right? Not going down any conspiratorial routes. This is just the facts, right? And that's what I continue to learn, is just how intentional a lot of things were. And it's like, damn. Why is your energy so messed up? Dedicating all this time to screw other people over. Like, where is your heart? Where is it? Like, genuinely, you know, genuinely. Because even if you have your prejudices and your misconceptions about people, that's one thing. But to actually exert the energy. I'm sure racism takes a lot of work. You know what I'm saying?

Rob Lee: I mean, this is high-intensity interval training. It is.

Dr. David O. Fakunle: Why you wasting all this time and energy and money and screwing people for what? Just to make yourself feel better ultimately?

Rob Lee: Yeah, and it's a thing that my partner throws out there, and she's really funny about things at times because, you know, usually like I have the button. We've talked about this. I have the button where I could just go like, look, this could be weird for us. You can get your ass kicked playboy, but she'll she'll be the person because she looks cute and she's like half my size. So it just kind of diffuses it. And it was one thing where she'll say, and she was just like, how are these people afraid of us, but also they're better than us at the same time? Like, which one is it, guys? Like, you know, we're just better than you. And the narrative, you know, the history dictates that. And she's like, if we really wanted to be you guys, we would just slit your throats if that's what you want. But having that come out of someone who's 5'2 with pink hair and looks like a Bratz doll is a wild visual. And but there's validity in it. And that's the thing that that kind of gets me. So when I encounter these different things or I have folks who kind of look down on some of the things that I'm trying to accomplish or even the folks that I talk to, if and I joke about this, I said this actually, you know, in a large meeting, I was like, oh, yeah, some people like this. Don't worry. In two years, some white girl from Michael will replace me and it will be her show. And I would just be an afterthought. Because that's what we want. That's what we look for. And it's just interesting. But to you, back to your point, and I think all of this connects, but back to your point, you're right. It's like, oh, why are you giving me something now? Why would you even want to do that? Why would that be a conversation? And in that, I had some degree of skepticism. And it was more just from, I don't have enough information. It hasn't been, it's like, it's similar in this way. of, I remember, you know, Trump or what have you, which has some ties to why this podcast started, right? And I just remember people were saying, well, you got to vote for the lesser evil. And I was like, why are we voting for evil? That's the type of thinking that's going to screw us over. I was just like, you mean thinking? You mean you said something that I'm like, I don't know if that's the way I do things. And, you know, conscientious objector or whatever it is, our history, right? You know, Muhammad Ali, all of that stuff, right? It's like you can't do that because groupthink dictates everything.

Dr. David O. Fakunle: When I started at Hopkins in 2013 as a doctoral student, I was ready for a fight. I was prepared. You get it. I didn't. And that's the part that was a shock. Because I remember my first day orientation, we're on the ninth, not ninth floor, the eighth floor of Hampton House. And I can look out the window and see much of East Baltimore. And I tell people, this is home for me. This is my home. Y'all in my hood, right? And I'm looking around the room, and I said, I don't see anybody that looks like me in here. Like, I called it out. First day is like, I'm about this life. Get ready. And this is why I've learned to let the universe do its thing, right? Because I thought that in order to get my voice across, to have my story respected, I had to fight for it. What I learned was that what I needed to do was just make space for people, right? Everybody, white folks, black folks, everybody in between. And one of the moments early on that gave me hope and encouragement and affirmation was when a full professor in my department, mental health, whose class. I don't know if I, I may have, I may have was taking it at that time. I don't even know how she found out about my storytelling thing, but she did. And I invited her into the space. Again, this is a row house in West Baltimore, Fulton Avenue, right across from Bon Secours. And I got this tenure track professor, white lady from Johns Hopkins, right? One of the foremost experts in aging population and cognition coming to my storytelling space, right? With the junkies, with the addicts, right? In my mind, I know that they're telling me in order to prove something to someone or to convince them in this space, you got to give them a paper, right? Or do the seminar or do the workshop. But all I could offer her in that point was be in this space with me. She was. And she got it. I said, thank you. Thank you for the confirmation that I can do this. I can create space for people and they can understand exactly what I'm talking about. And that is the approach that has worked for me ever since. I can understand that Black folks are tired of explaining to their oppressors how they're being oppressed. I get it. I just know for me that what has been successful and Getting the resources, getting the opportunities, getting the allies in the fight for justice and for liberation is to explain it to them, but also make space for them to be reminded of what's most important. Because a lot of times, they have forgotten that for themselves, even outside of the concepts of race and socioeconomic status and all these variables. For their own lives, they have forgotten what's most important. and they just needed the reminder. And then usually the question that I have after that is, if this is what we all want, why are we stopping ourselves from getting it? And then the next question is when you realize, oh shit, yeah. Do what you can, right? I'm not asking you to dismantle racism in a day, because it wasn't built in a day, right? Do what you can. And do it with this orientation and with this focus on making sure that people can have, fundamentally, the same things that you want. It's the golden rule. Tell me why every book of faith, book of dogma, has basically come down to the same truth. Just do what you want other people to do to you. Like, damn. It's that simple. And I'm so glad that I had that moment in my faith, right? Growing up in the church, in the Black Baptist Church, where I got to that Bible verse, right? Where it says, love the Lord with all your heart and treat thy neighbor as thyself. And then figured out, oh, that's the golden rule. So literally, from the mouth of God, right? Just be nice to people. OK, bet. I'll do that. Simple, right? The Ten Commandments thing? OK. But if I can just be nice to people and try to be nice and loving as much as possible, right? Because it's not all sunshines and rainbows, and love has variance, right? Love has a dynamic. But if that's your focus, no matter what you do, research. Yeah, research with love, right? Advocate with love. Communicate with love, right? So I'm the guy, not just the storytelling guy, at Hopkins. I'm the lovey-dovey guy, right? Because I'm the one that's reminding people and encouraging people to embrace their emotions, right? Embrace their humanity right along with this. You can be a damn good scientist and a human being at the same time because I'm doing it, right? No one has ever, you know, demeaned my science or my research or my contributions. Oh, he's too loving. He's too understanding, right? He's too compassionate. He's too empathetic. No, no, no. That can't be good science because of that. No. Those things make my science good.

Rob Lee: Yeah. And that's a good spot for us to kind of wrap on the real questions. You got the last one. You're cheating a little bit. I don't really like that. But you knocked out the last one. And I think it's a lot. And I think this is going to be one of those ones that folks are going to just listen back to and get the connective tissue. and definitely get in and kind of how they see things. Like when you see it, whatever it might be, and we touched on a few different things, it's hard to unsee and you just start, you're shaped by that and how you approach things. And, you know, as you talked about with the, you know, connections of that environment and sort of the Hopkins setup and so on, it's definitely has those fingerprints in different areas because everyone in one way, shape or form has either worked within it or have someone that's connected to it. So parts of that culture kind of pop out for better or for worse and how we go about things. So those fingerprints are everywhere.

Dr. David O. Fakunle: Yeah.

Rob Lee: And yeah. So what I want to do in these last moments is hit you with these rapid fire questions. I got you. And as I tell everyone, you know, I said what I said, don't overthink them. You know, questions. All right. You mentioned earlier sort of, you know, I hear travel, always ask people about their travel experience. And I would imagine, you know, there's been places you mentioned one of the places earlier and I'm and I'm blanking on it. I didn't take the note when I was when I was typing. But talk to me a little bit about travel. But from this this sort of context, what's the first thing you do when you're visiting a new place? Like some folks are like, you know, I need to, you know, go to this place first. I need to do this. I'm talking about after you've dropped off your luggage, after you've gotten to where you're getting me, I'm looking for the neighborhood and I'm looking for where the coffee is at. I was like, is it good coffee? Is it a gayborhood? It means the food is good. Crime is low. All the things. This is easy for you. What is that first thing you do when you're visiting a new place?

Dr. David O. Fakunle: Oh, man. All right. So after I unpacked all my clothes, I got to unpack my clothes, put them away. You got to light one up to relax. So after those things, Yeah, I'm looking for a place to eat, right? I'm looking for a place to eat, and I think I'm just kind of understanding my surroundings, you know? So the last big trip that my family and I took was in December. We went to St. Martin in the Caribbean. I highly recommend it. So far, it's the closest thing to heaven that I've seen. Um, just getting used to the delay of the land. Um, that was interesting because I didn't really have any cell phone reception in St. Martin. So I'm glad I downloaded the map before I got on the island. Um, and just, you know, driving around, right. It's a small island, so it's easy to drive around, but just driving around and just exploring, you know what I mean? Just seeing stuff, right. I, that was one of the, that was, My family and I travel a lot. My wife is from Mexico. We often travel to Mexico at least once a year, sometimes twice, if not three times a year, and someplace else. Because of how busy I am, those were always work trips in a way. I'm always doing work and stuff because I have no choice. Like if I stop, some things will actually stop with them. But this last trip in December was the first true vacation I had in years. It wasn't just that the actual work that I needed to do was relatively limited. I didn't want to work. I'm a workaholic. I get that from my father. That's what happens when you're Nigerian. You don't have to work. But I did not want to work. I just wanted to be. I was lazy. I was exploratory. I went fishing. I drank. I was in nature. I was around the ocean the whole time, and it was gorgeous. And it was everything I wanted. It was everything I wanted. So for me, it really is just getting an understanding of the scenery, whatever that looks like. You know, yeah, I certainly understand feeling safe and comfortable. That's how I felt when I went to Mexico, where my wife is from, because he's from Sinaloa. Oh, yeah. I'm from Sinaloa for one thing, the cartel, OK? So of course, my thought is, I don't know how many Black folks they see in Sinaloa. And I damn sure don't want them to think I'm trying to buy kilos of anything while I'm here. And of course, the first time we go back in, like, 2017, what's the rental car I get? A bright red Mercedes. Oof. 18-5.

Rob Lee: I mean, the only other thing I know about it, like my, my, um, my brother, he's, he's married to a Mexican woman. And we, you know, I remember, uh, it was visiting, visiting him for the first time that he, the first time that he was getting married that same weekend. So it was just like, yo, you're meeting your brother and you're getting married. Yeah. You live in on like cloud nine, my G. And I was just like, yo, so. What's up with your family? I studied like Spanish. I worked at Spanish call center at the time and I speak bad Spanish. And I was like, yo, we're going to hang out with the homies. And it's just bikers. I was like, yo, where is your people from? What are we doing? I just want to make sure we all good. because that part of New Mexico, yeah, it is no black people there. And my brother was popping off. Wow. My brother looks like T.I. That's his energy. And he was just like, yo, my brother's from Baltimore and they kill us. That's literally what he said. I was like, yeah, you can't say that. I'm from East Baltimore and I have a I'm like, what are you saying to me? Yeah. So this is the second question, kind of ties a little bit, especially when it comes to travel. What is… your your favorite meal, like, you know, like your your favorite thing to eat. Like for me, when I like I've traveled to New Orleans the most, you know, and I'm potentially going to relocate there, you know, like 40. I might just become a New Orleanian. I don't know. We'll see. But I'm a snob, too, about food. I'm like, yo, like my my my girl made she made red beans and rice, you know, because I wanted my New Orleans kick and She did it with the andouille, and I was just like, look, you did it right. You know, I was like, some folks like, I'm gonna throw some turkey sauce. I was like, you're gonna throw that away. You're gonna put it in the trash. And she already knows I'm a snob, and I go there. It's one of my things. It's sort of that thing, like, you know, you got the jambalaya, you got the red beans and rice. If you get me something like that, I'm, you know, we're on the same page. What is, like, a dish, maybe it's regional, but what is a dish for you that is just like, this is one of your favorites?

Dr. David O. Fakunle: Ooh, well, I'm a Baltimore guy. Chicken box, you know it. Okay. I'll get my fire wings and fries, regular fries typically, but Western fries if they cook them right. Salt and pepper ketchup on the fries, salt, pepper, hot sauce on the wings. Okay. Slice of the white bread, half and half or triple mix. I'm good. The other thing I'll say, too, the other thing I'll say, too, is I am a sucker for lamb and rice, Mediterranean lamb and rice. And there's a spot right across the street from what they call it now, what was it, CFG Bank Arena? Yeah. That's always there. It's usually there from, like, 10 to, like, 6. And they're all around the city, right? There's a couple of them at Hopkins, right? I know there's one on the corner of Washington and Montgomery. You just want to record a Broadway event. And I know it's a guilt, because they all got the same prices, right? So any time the prices went up, everybody's price went up. But the one across from the arena is probably the best two. There's two spots. That one across from the arena is at Hopkins Place. That building right there is right in front of it. And then the other one is Eastern Avenue and Conklin Street, right across from the library. Those are the two best spots for lamb and rice in this city. If anybody wants to just, because they cut the lamb thick, right? They're thick pieces of lamb, right? Salad is solid, the rice is good, but it's the lamb that makes the difference. Because I've had some lamb and rice combos where they cut it real small and they real skimpy with the lamb, right? The ratio is all off. So that's my snobbishness, is the ratio between meat and carbs, right? There needs to be at least a bite of meat for every scoop of carbs I'm taking. So those two spots, The lamb is thick. They are not skimpy on the lamb. The whole plate is covered with lamb, even though the salad and rice is under there. And I don't eat it with a fork. I eat it with a spoon. I'm scooping that stuff up. And every bite has lamb on it. Only costs you, what, $10? I think $11 if you get some pita bread on the side, which I highly recommend. And there you go. I don't try to eat it every day because I don't want to get sick of it. But I know I can eat it a few times a week. and love it every single time.

Rob Lee: I'll throw this your way because, you know, I've been accused of not being a Baltimorean because I don't have the accent. And I'm like, look, I'm from Lafayette. I don't have to tell you, City College gang.

Dr. David O. Fakunle: I was a friend, OK? Look, people were, come on. I picked up more of the accent and the language probably after schooling, in my adult years. The way I talk now, it was not the way I was talking when I was going to Friends at the University of Maryland. Trust me.

Rob Lee: I don't have any of it. It's never been there. It's a few words that my girl, because she's from New York. She's like, you have St. Orange. And I was like, yeah.

Dr. David O. Fakunle: Nah, she's just like, yeah, you know what I say, Doug?

Rob Lee: It's like all the other ones. I'm good every now and again.

Dr. David O. Fakunle: Yeah, we really do talk like that.

Rob Lee: I get I get lazy, but there is one thing like this Baltimore or Maryland, but I claim it as Baltimore. But I put my own spin on because I'm snob. I do a Japanese style crab cake. That's. So it has for khaki in it, it has the QP and it has like cornstarch. I only use lump some claw meat because that's where the flavors at all that good stuff. But I smoke it. And I'm on something right there. And it's that I guess the one Baltimore thing is, you know, it's the same crab that's in New Orleans. And I heard this from multiple people. When I was down there last year, I was down in New Orleans twice, and I'm at a bar and I'm just chopping it up. And I'm like, yo, so yeah, I'm here from Baltimore. And they say, yeah, you sound like you're from up north. I was like, language. And the chick that was working there in the bar, she was like, you know y'all know how to make the crabs up there. Y'all make those crabs right. I was like, hey, hey, now, we were friends.

Dr. David O. Fakunle: I was like, I'm just trying to have a good time.

Rob Lee: And I see, I see myself in the mirror and I see the indignation on my face. And I'm like, oh, oh, that's that Baltimore pride right there.

Dr. David O. Fakunle: Yeah, we are a defensive city. Yes, you just don't talk shit about this. We can talk shit about each other. That's all right. But if you ain't from Baltimore, don't talk shit about Baltimore, because you don't know.

Rob Lee: This is the thing. It's a bit, because like I said, I sit there at the cusp, and especially with Lamar Jackson's pettiness that I enjoy so much, And me and my girl say, don't activate a Capricorn. Just don't activate them. Like, because, you know, we watch the I know he's not a Capricorn. This reference I'm about to make. But when we watch the last dance, you know, the bulls and all the stuff Jordan was on, he's an Aquarius. I was like, you do all of that. She's like, you have an enemy. It's like, that's all I needed to hear. I want his podcast over. All right, so this is the last question I got for you in a rapid fire before we wrap up. So, you know, one of the main ways that we we share stories, we talked about sort of books we talked about podcasts, obviously. But I think film is another way that we share. We share stories and get those those narratives out there. Do you have a favorite movie? Oh.

Dr. David O. Fakunle: I always have to remind myself of the movies that I really, really enjoy. And the way I say it's my favorite is because I could watch it over and over again, and I like it pretty much each time. So now I'm glad I can actually think of one in the immediate moment. Old Brother, Where Art Thou? That's a good one. It's what introduced me to Bluegrass. And I loved Bluegrass Bee because of that movie. And certainly, obviously, it being an interpretation of Homer's Odyssey was great, because I read the Odyssey in high school. But I just, it's so quotable. It's such a great, quotable movie. Let me see what else I like. Yeah, I love that song. I love that song. The Other Guys. Yeah, because again, quotable, stupid as hell, but I love the fact that it was teaching about a very, you know, again, we talk about wealth inequality, that's a public health issue, right? And that was a movie that made it funny as hell, right? Will Ferrell and Mark Wahlberg. But what I enjoyed the most was at the end, in the credits, where it's saying, oh, here's what CEOs were making 40-something years ago. Here's how much they're making now. Here's what the employees were making then. Here's how much they're making now. So it's making known, yeah, this is funny. But we're talking about a real issue that's affecting probably you and a whole bunch of people that you know. So pay attention to this. So it was almost that reminder of, yes, things can be funny and informative. because you know plenty of you know people who have seen the other it's it's funny as hell i'd be curious how many people thought more intentionally about again wealth inequality and again i say toxic capitalism i'm not about i'm not against making money But make money and not be an asshole while doing it, right? Don't make money at the sacrifice of somebody else, because you can, right? You can make money and help people. That's what I like proving, is that I make my wealth, my economy is built on making people better, genuinely. And I'm grateful for that. Like, I have the combination of, yes, money in the bank, as well as peace of mind. I'm not selling my soul. Actually, I'm giving my soul, and people are paying for a piece of my soul, right? And I'm giving it to them willingly. So that's a movie I enjoy as well. I'm trying to think of another one real quick.

Rob Lee: And I think that one added to sort of the arc. I'm not sure if that was Adam McKay. Maybe he directed it, or maybe he was a producer on it, but that's part of the Will Ferrell gang. Right. I know that that, I would imagine, that that led to some of the language and the storytelling around what we got in, like, the big short, for instance.

Dr. David O. Fakunle: Oh, I'm sure. Yeah. Oh, I'm sure. Which was a much more serious movie. Right. So, yeah, absolutely.

Rob Lee: Really funny in that way of like, you know, you know, this is what really happened.

Dr. David O. Fakunle: I mean, none of this is fake by G. And I'll tell you the movie that I do want to see. And interestingly enough, it's gotten is getting Oscar buzz and was nominated for American Fiction. Yeah, yeah, yeah, because I I'm just even by looking at the trailer Because I went to see the beekeeper because I had a coupon for it And it had a trailer for which was a good Jason Statham just shooting up a whole bunch same thing, right? He's the he's the guy outside of the the laws of society. That's keeping the you know, the fragile flawed, but You know functioning system together. I'm like kind of dig that premise But you know Even in the pieces of the trail of American fiction, I'm like, oh, I kind of see myself. Because I understand. Because it's making me think of Bamboozle, for example, by Spike Lee. Same premise of having to acquiesce to white folks in order to be successful. This guy, he's just trying to be himself. This is what I write about. This is my frame of reference. It's not black enough. And even the little quips with the white folks when he's, so he changed my pathology to my pathology. It just made me crack. I was like, because I totally understand why you did it, right? And of course, he's going to have all the success because he's doing it tongue in cheek in his mind. But now everything that he wanted, he's going to get. So I just want to see how it plays out. And it looks like it's brilliant acting. Jeffrey Wright, Sterling K. Brown, they both got nominated for Oscars. I'll show it rightfully so. So I want to see. I think I'm going to really enjoy that movie.

Rob Lee: one of my doppelgangers who I have, you know, I'm a big Jeffrey Wright fan and definitely loved him in Westworld and several other things, the Basquiat movie or what have you. And, you know, even Cadillac Records of all ilks. It's like you have a bad wig on, sir, but this movie is fine. And, you know, smokestack lightning from Helen Wolfe is fine. So, yeah. I think we got it. I think we got it. So I want to close out and give this show the shameless plug portion here. And one, thank you for coming on the pod and spending some time with us. And two, I want to invite and encourage you to share with the listeners. You said Google me, but also put it out there for the folks. Let them know where they can check you out, your work, and all of that good stuff.

Dr. David O. Fakunle: So I will preface this by saying, I really don't care for social media. I don't, nothing against it. It's just not where my energy is. I do have an Instagram page at Discover Me, Recover Me. Maybe if you're lucky, you'll see a post in the next year or so. But honestly, and I do it for myself because I'm always curious as to how, again, my story is being captured. I Google myself quite often just to see like, what's out there? What have I missed about me that's out there? So I would say, honestly, the best way to kind of see what I've been up to is to Google me, right? There might be something in the news, but I'm always being added to somebody's website. Sometimes they tell me, sometimes they don't. Um, and really, I think going to discover me, recover me.com. Uh, that's the website for, for my organization. And you can certainly connect with me there. You'll see that I'm at multiple universities. I answer all the emails. I guess that's my generation. I do actually like emails. Although you can text me if we cool. I'll give you. But yeah, just I tell people, if there's anything that you have seen or heard that you are interested in exploring more with me, I am not hard to find. Right. I am open to connection, I am open to exploration, even during this recording I've gotten emails from somebody who's connecting me to somebody else. Boom. This is my life man this is my life and I just, again, I throw my hands up in gratitude to the universe for guiding me, and and because one thing I tell people is I'm not, I don't have to tell my story, the world will tell my story. And I'm actually very happy at the way it tells it so far, right? It's telling the story that I would tell myself, but I love that it's coming from other people, right, because now they're reflecting their experience with me. So yeah, DiscoverMeRecoverMe.com, at DiscoverMeRecoverMe on Instagram. Again, I'm at Hopkins, I'm at Morgan State, I'm at the University of Florida. If you Google me, it will not take long to find a way to connect with me, and I will actually answer you. Like, I'm that guy, right, in a day or two, because I don't like When my inbox gets over 20, I start to feel weird. OK? Yes. Not 2,000. Not 200. 20. OK? So I don't like to sit on messages because I genuinely am excited. I'm excited when I get to connect with people who share a genuine interest in connecting with me. Right? I'll always be down for conversation. Like, you can see I can add nausea. And I'm not even high. That's the thing. That's the thing. I love to talk. I love to connect. So please just reach out. I'm always happy to, again, be human with other people.

Rob Lee: I'm on the same page. Like, you know, we're in the same age group, I think, you know, and both both on the millennial tip, I think.

Dr. David O. Fakunle: And yeah, I guess we're the older millennials.

Rob Lee: And, you know, definitely I'm the master of the scheduled email. I hate that sort of thing where, oh, my bad, bro. I forgot to get back to you. It's like, yeah, you just decided not to. And that's fine. And especially because, you know, I'm thinking production oriented. This gives me flexibility and all of that. And but yeah, that's a tale for a different day.

Dr. David O. Fakunle: I totally understand. And for me, it's just, if I take too long with responding, it's because I've overthought it. So I was almost like, I apologize in advance if I took too long, because that means I overthought the communication. Because for me, all my emails are intentional. The majority of my storytelling is through email. when I'm communicating with people, right? Because I'm very intentional and very thoughtful with the responses that I give. So, you know, like I'm looking at my inbox right now for Morgan State. Let's see what we're up to. We're up to 27. So I'm already feeling kind of low right now. And because for me, every email, for the most part, like unless it's like an average, all these emails are conversations that people want to have with me. And I want to be So that's why I was like, am I in the right spirit to respond? It's not about time. It's about, am I in the right place to actually give you a thoughtful response? But nevertheless, I tend to be fairly quick. So please, please reach out. I'm happy to connect.

Rob Lee: And there you have it, folks. I want to again thank Dr. David O. Fakunle for coming on to the podcast. And I'm Rob Lee saying that there's art, culture, and community in and around your neck of the woods. You've just got to look for it.