Welcome to The Truth in His Heart, your source for conversations at the intersection of arts, culture, and community. I am your host, Rob Lee. Thank you so much for tuning in. And today, we are running it back with a returning guest who is an acclaimed author, writer, professor. He's published over 8 books.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:His writing has been featured in the New York Times, The Guardian, and Salon where he serves as editor at large. Please welcome the one and only, Dee Watkins. Welcome back to the podcast.
D Watkins:What's up, brother? Happy to be here, man.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:Happy to have you here, my my Aquarius brother. That's the other thing, you know. Our season our season is approaching.
D Watkins:Coming. It's coming. We gotta get these Capricorns out of the way.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:And and and thank you for just, you know, agreeing to come back on. You're the 1st episode of, season 10. You know, season 10 of this this podcast. I don't know how I I got here, 800 plus episodes, but, you know, I wanted to, like, run it back, and you were the first person that came to mind.
D Watkins:One one episode at a time.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:This this is true. This is true. It's like, I don't know how I got through it.
D Watkins:One episode at a time.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:You know? So, you know, as we start off, I wanna I wanna hit you with this one. And it's almost like a continuation of that that first conversation. So, you know, in in that vein of one day at a time everything or one show at a time, everything is always changing. Like, it it's nature.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:Right? So with regard to your career, your work, what are some of the biggest changes over the last few years since we spoke? I mean, I I saw, you know, Gordon Parks fellow, you know, James Beard award out here. I've mentioned that a few times to folks. It's like, Dean Watkins got a James Beard award.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:How is he in the kitchen? What's what's good? And the past few years. So have these experience, shaped your journey and so on, but sort of let's let's talk about that part of, you know, where you're at in your career right now. And I have a second part to the question, but just where you're at right now.
D Watkins:Yeah. I had a a very interesting year, full of ups and downs. And I think, you know, I'm I'm thankful for the for the awards and the great things that have happened for me this year. I'm also thankful for the negative things that have happened because if I don't, if I'm not experiencing those negative things, then I would never really know how good it is to experience some of some of the great things. I was shocked when I got a James Beard award too.
D Watkins:But you know, because I wasn't even when I found out, it was for an essay I wrote about, the new conversations around being sober and, you know, how when people were sober 10 years ago, they were like the laughing stock of, you know, whatever. And now it's like there's a whole cultural movement going on and the restaurant industry is paying attention, and responding at a high level. Right. So, you know, I also wanted to use that essay as a tribute. I don't know if, you remember when we, we were at that restaurant, Alma, Cosina, my cousin Maja Maja used to used to be a bartender there as she committed suicide.
D Watkins:So, like, you know, it was kinda like, like, it's like a heavy time for me as well. It just in dealing with that. So when I, you know, so when I found out, you know, when they told me they nominated the, essay, I was like, people nominate stuff all the time, whatever. But then when they hit back and it was like, nah, you know, bro, you're a finalist. Then I'm like, man, I'm not gonna go like, you know, they're gonna give it to some seasoned food writer who whatever, which is totally fine.
D Watkins:But my wife was like, well, you know, if we do go, we can go to Chicago and eat. Because it's Jane it's James Beard weekend. So, you know, people gonna be pulling out everything. Like, there's gonna be some serious stuff going on in the city because, you know, it's, you know, it's like, it's it's a it's a big time to celebrate people with food and people that love food. So I just went, and I'm I'm in the audience, and I'm cool, and I'm not really thinking of it.
D Watkins:And, you know, when they, you know, they call the names up. They call my name, and I'm like, yo, what? And then I didn't even I didn't have a speech prepared because I didn't think I was gonna I didn't think I was gonna you know, it's funny because it's like, normally, if I if I'm entered in something, the competitor in me, I was always thinking like, yo, I I should I should be chosen, but I was I was super humble. Like, man, I'm not I'm not gonna win. So, you know, and then I won, you know, so it was crazy.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:Wow. Thank you for for sharing. I didn't make, you know, going back, I didn't make that connection. That is, you know, sort of tough, really really tough because it's like getting getting different pieces of sort of, you know, that story than sort of the the other side of it of, you know, covering and and really going through and touching on sort of, this this career highlight and this sort of year as you you touched on in the beginning. I think when we have these these ideals and these non ideals, these ups and these downs, if you will, it does shape, like, where a person is at, you know, that you can recognize the Swede from the not so Swede and be able to tell it.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:You know? Because sometimes if it's all wins, it's like, you know, it's just another thing. If it's all losses, it's just like, damn, I can never win. So being able to have the 2 yeah.
D Watkins:I interviewed, Brian Tyree Henry like a week ago. Yeah. The guy, he plays paperboy on the TV show Atlanta.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:Mhmm.
D Watkins:You know, but he you know, this has been playing on a whole lot of things since then. He's in this new film about, the the boxer, Clarissa Shields, that's coming out on Christmas. And, you know, we had this conversation about, that all wins mentality and how it kind of distracts away from the journey. You know, he was, he's Tony nominated, he's Emmy nominated, he's Oscar nominated. He's never took home a trophy.
D Watkins:But, you know, so he would have a right to talk about not, you know, fully being recognized for his talents in the industry. However, he's working, he's trying, he's building, he's he's getting looks and he has the opportunity to continue to try again. That is a win. That is what we focus on. How do I get every opportunity and try my best to make the best out of it?
D Watkins:And I just felt like it's just a more healthy mind set. Like nobody wins everything. Nobody is like driving on the highway and never miss an exit. Like, you know, we all we all go through stuff. Gordon Parks was a big deal for me, which stemmed from this kind of conversation where Devin Allen was the inaugural Gordon Parks fellow years ago and he's had a lot of shows and he's had a lot of success.
D Watkins:So much success that, you know, you know, he won like a Spital book prize, which is like huge. Right? And, to have the the German bookmaker, you know, do do a specialized collection around your work is huge. And he won his book prize and pretty much almost got, like, got, like, no press in Baltimore. No party covered it.
D Watkins:No no newspaper. No news outlets. Like, it's like whatever. So part of him is like, okay, well, his thing is I could I could be mad and complain about this, or, you know, I think my I think my brother's an excellent writer, so I'm gonna, like, try to go to the foundation and put him up and fight for him to get this great award because, you know, that's how we build a community and a foundation in the city. That's how we how we take some of the cool stuff we're doing in the city and put it on a national stage.
D Watkins:So it's like, I'm, like, I'm here for all of that, man. Like, I I get a chance to return to fame. I always try. I get a chance to talk about what's happening in Baltimore around the world. I try, and that's that's that's a win too.
D Watkins:And that's it. It's it's, you know, it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it makes for, like, it allows me to have some fun with all of this.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:Yeah. 2 things I I I will say in that vein. 1 is I I don't think that I, you know, properly did as I'll do it on this podcast. I wanna again thank you for one of the things you did for me, because not everybody has, like, cell phone access. Right?
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:I don't give anybody my number, firstly. You know? So when I was having this period where right? When I was going on, creative mornings, and I was, like, wild nervous, and I was, like, yo, how did you do it? And what what would you recommend to start?
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:And he's, like, do something that you normally wouldn't do. And I even watched yours, and I literally bit your whole style. I was like, yo, I'm sitting down. Yeah. And I started off with something that was really stupid.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:I was just talking about since we're talking about the truth and sharing the truth, I'm gonna be very truthful. I give myself my own nicknames, and I go down this whole list, and I got the audience on my side, and then I was able to, like, do my thing. So, you know, just thank you for, you know, just giving me that sort of feedback. Giving me that bit of direction in that, you know, doing it because I almost, like I said, no. I'm not gonna do this at all.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:I can't fade it. You know? And the other piece I'll touch on is and it's one of the things you said there of being able to go abroad, go outside of Baltimore and really and and, for for lack of a better term, being a ambassador to what it is to be from here authentically. I did that recently in September. I went to, you know, Ohio for this cartoon Crossroad Columbus, what have you, and I was just there moderating a panel.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:Right? And I usually don't get those things. I usually don't get those opportunities, and it came from just doing this podcast. I got connected. And I was just like, yo, I don't know what I'm gonna do.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:So I get up there and I'm just popping off about, oh, the Browns suck. I started off with that. Oh, man. And I was like, here's the thing. I'm from Baltimore.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:You probably hear that. You probably, you know, you got a little nervous when you heard Baltimore, and they're like, alright. Where are you from again? Why? And and I go down sort of some of the first some of the things that makes Baltimore a special place and then really serve as an advocate.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:It's like I did that hook. You know? Again, not you know, having somewhat of a speech prepared, if you will, but figuring out how to essentially get the people on my side, get my thing off because I really wanted to accomplish. I'm from Baltimore, and that's very much part of the identity. And then do my job very well.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:So that's that's kinda what it was, and I was just thinking of the
D Watkins:That's that's fine. And then you get it, you know, and then I think the cool part is, like like, I used to feel, like, different ways about address the large crowds and, you know, and you know, some of the anxiety and going into these events and functions. But what I will say is that after one of the things that I took away just from the pandemic was just like how, like the luxury of being able to connect with people, the luxury of getting in front of a crowd, just, you know, like running your mouth and just, you know, just having a good time because that's something that was, you know, it it we were robbed. You know, we lost And I think that, you know, you know, the, the, the, the, the, the, the one person, the one person who had the power to shut down and isolate anyone who was coming from places, where he could have potentially been exposed to the virus actually got his job back. Right.
D Watkins:You know, people talk about money and they talk about taxes and they talk about, oh, I'm sick of this group and I'm sick of that group. All right, Let's take everything you believe politically out of the window. Let's just strip everything out the window. And the one thing that you cannot dispute is that the pandemic was handled terribly. It was it was treated like a joke.
D Watkins:It was, drank some bleach. It was, you don't have to social distance and wear a mask. It was science doesn't matter. And then the bodies, the bodies pile up. People were scared.
D Watkins:People were crying. People were uncertain. People were dying. And then it's ignored. Like just the 24 hour news cycle was so strong that all of these idiots forgot about that time.
D Watkins:And they go in and they bring this guy, they bring him back. They bring up, they bring him back.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:It's funny you mentioned that. And before I move into this this sort of next question, I will touch on it because I think it's intersection there. You know, my background before almost concurrently, you know, I was in marketing before going to higher ed where I'm at now. And the whole marketing thing, you know, always pops back out, which is, you know, how things are pitched, how things are getting over, because always breaks down to like psychology for me. Right.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:And I just remember being in the gym one of those days where we kind of started still like you know, wearing masks, but we were able to go back to places. Right? And as you remember, it's like CNN was reporting on, yeah, COVID and, health related news and advertisements around that have lessened. And we see the numbers creeping up. I was like, yes.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:Because it's not important to you anymore. You're not taking it as serious. If it was serious, it would be out there the same as, you know, Marvel movie commercial, but it's not. And I was like, you guys didn't take it as serious, and it's kinda diminished. And to your your point, We're back to it.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:So in going back and and part of the the thinking and going into this this season of the of the podcast was I started this in many ways because of that person that's gone back in office of suppressing, like, stories or diminishing the stories of people that are like us from places like this. And I was like, no. It makes sense to kinda go back and revisit some of those folks from earlier interviews. And it's like, yo. Where we at now?
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:We're 5 years in now. And just see what this looks like.
D Watkins:Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Wow. It's wow.
D Watkins:So, you know, it makes what you do more important because they are taking these stories out of schools. They are removing DEI departments. They are denying slavery. They are denying Jim Crow. They are denying things that are actually like on the books of American history.
D Watkins:They're just they're they're denying it. So, however we can get, you know, get these stories out. And, you know, my other piece to that for me is just, is, you know, obviously, you know, we a lot we had the energy to take on that task, but we also just have to make sure we're in the moment and we're celebrating each other, and we're celebrating our family, and we're celebrating just being here. Like, just being here. Like, you can go you can't, you know, you know, I don't feel like going to the gym, but I'm gonna have to I'm gonna I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm excited I'm excited to get back into the gym because I I I mean, I've been on crutches for the last month.
D Watkins:I'm gonna be on crutches for another 3, 4 weeks. So it's like I'm gonna be excited about getting back and working out and walking and running. Like, you know, the stuff we take for granted, just simple stuff, just running. I can't I can't run to the I can't run downstairs and go grab my food from the door and then run it upstairs. That that shit takes, like, 20 minutes because I'm, you know what I mean?
D Watkins:So it's like the stuff we take for granted. I don't I don't want to take anything for granted, man. I want to be thankful. I want to be present. I want to be in the moment.
D Watkins:When I'm here, I want to be here. And when I'm out the way, I want to be out the way. I
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:hear you. I hear you. So one of the one of the things that I think is interesting, and this is sort of the the segue piece here, you know, touching on sort of, you know, even the the DEI stuff going away, even the sort of, you know, critical race theory, All of these sort of different things are being suppressed and our sort of reality and our history is being edited. It's almost like we're getting the really short 90 minute version of a director's cut. You know, director's cut should be like 3 hours.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:We're getting the 90 minute abbreviated version. And I think it hits, multiple areas. You see newspapers all the time getting rid of, you know, sort of the arts and cultural sections where they're not covering it. And I would imagine sort of writing, you know, and and reading. You know, I've I've heard you speak on the importance of writing and reading every day and creating projects that build like experience and and showing your work.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:You know, and it sounds like it's a very disciplined approach and kind of figuring out and staying in sort of that that one lane and figuring out your lane or as you touched on before we got started, like running your own race. How has that mindset, like, shaped your career trajectory? Like, you know, you touched on earlier some of these these wins in the last year. How is that approach of just really being on your craft, being on your job, if you will?
D Watkins:I think one of the main things for me is has just been, honesty. You know what I'm saying? Like, I just try to be honest with as many artists as possible. Like, people look at some of the awards some of the awards I was lucky enough to win, some of the projects I was lucky enough to work on, and they think they make the mistake of thinking I'm, like, one of the biggest writers in the world. And it's like, not it's levels.
D Watkins:I work really hard. I try really hard. I show up for other artists, especially writers as much as I can. And I and I try every day. And, you know, I also think like we're in this weird space where everybody's comparing themselves to everybody else and it's just, it's not healthy.
D Watkins:Everybody's, you know, it's it's people who would love to have my career and I know that it's people careers who I would trade my career for in a second And it's and it was just real, you know what I'm saying? Like, I would I never had a million books in print. I've never been on, you know what I'm saying, Gayle King. I never had none of that kind of stuff. But I have friends who do and I celebrate them proudly because they give me something to reach towards.
D Watkins:And, you know, I I think, I I I hope in 2025, I hope we just we I hope we get into a space where we just learn how to just embrace reality. You know, you know, and just, you know, kinda in the fake shit. Like, you know, people act like like they know everything. Like, they have all the answers. Like, they are they are winning at a high level because they're in competition with someone who doesn't even really know they exist.
D Watkins:Like, I tell people all the time, if you won competition with me, you won because I don't give a fuck. Like, I just don't care. Like, I want you to be successful, and I want you to be happy. But if your success to happy is based off of what I'm doing, then I'm looking at you crazy, like, yo, like, you know, just now we're getting in a weirdo time. So, you know, I I just I want I want more of that.
D Watkins:And I just and I'm gonna be I'm not just gonna talk about it. I'm you know, as we have the conversation, I'm gonna I'm living it.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:I I agree with you, you know, in that vein. I think there I think it's always a 3rd part a 3rd party, right, that's inserting that because it's like, oh, you must be bored. You know? What you're not like them, or this person has this many downloads or that, and it's just like, well, I'm doing my own thing. Like, I To be able to continually do this, as I was sharing before we got started, like, you know, I have these sort of potential setbacks, but I'm gonna still do my thing.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:That's success for me. That's me competing against me yesterday versus this notion of someone else is doing this. It's always a third party that's inserting it, and I've been able to see more and more of that. And it's been a very revealing 5 years because, you know, in doing this podcast, but really in the last year, having that clarity has been really revealing. So in that same vein, what has been, like, the the most revealing thing for you in the last year?
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:Was it what you just touched on, or is it something else that comes to mind as it relates to, you know, your work or how you go about your work?
D Watkins:I think the most revealing thing to me is that, is that, is that I don't, I don't know what I'm doing and I don't have it all. I don't have it all figured out and I just don't know. My mind was blown when I found out I was a Gordon Parks fellow and before I could even fully get into the fact that I'm a Gordon Parks fellow, I went to Vernon Jarrett, Vernon Jarrett medal. My mom was blown when I went to Vernon Jarrett Medal because he's a hero and a pioneer and a craft. My mom was blown before I could really get into that.
D Watkins:This James Beard award comes and before I can really get into that, I'll get this Climb Fellowship. But before I can get to that, I win this, Enoch Pratt residency. So it's like this stuff is coming back to back to back to back to back. And people who are looking, like, yo, all you do is win. And I'm like, dawg, you know, this is attached to, like, 15 years of losses.
D Watkins:You know what I'm saying? So it's like, yes, I'm thankful, but I'm thank I'm not thankful because I'm I'm promoting myself as this person who just wins all the time. I'm thankful because I know what it's like to get that open unfold that letter, And that letter says you were not selected. I know what that's. I know what I know what that's like.
D Watkins:So, you know, I think for this year, I just learned that, you know, even when you wanna give up, you know, just can just contribute a little bit more and just keep pushing and just keep going forward and understand that, you know, you can have all the plans in the world, but there's a higher power who's pulling the strings. And you have to fully, fully, fully believe that you are covered and you are in the right place at the right time and remove yourself from the mundane day to day, you know, competitions and and and competitiveness of, the artists. And, you know, what I wanna what I wanna say is that I am hyper I'm super competitive and but in a healthy way. I'm not competitive like I wanna crush other artists. I'm competitive and I wanna be the best version of myself and then and then build on that.
D Watkins:So I'll never turn down a publication. I'll never turn down a a a a a artist. I will never turn down people who even if when they hate on me, I'm not gonna publicly I might say something to you in private but publicly, I'm never gonna try to stop you from getting, you know, whatever you're trying to get because I understand that you can't have a problem with me because, you know, you don't have a reason to because I didn't do nothing to you because I don't even know you. You know what I'm saying? And and if you knew better, you wouldn't wouldn't have a problem with me because I'm not a person that you should have a problem with.
D Watkins:So I know it's not personal, and I just, you know, I just I think I think I've I think I've learned to just to let to to focus more on what I care about as far as creation and and and let God pull the
D Watkins:pull the rest of the strings. And and and if, if I'm in a position where I'm not supposed to win nothing, then I'll just sit back and win nothing. If I'm in a position where I'm surprised and I'm missing stuff, then
D Watkins:I'm super blessed and I'm super thankful.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:Yeah. No. That's that's really well said. And, you know, it's like having this. I I was thinking of this one of these things, you know, the 15 years of losses.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:Right? I was just like it's like time served. It's like, look, man. I finally get to win. It's like, where do you put this in?
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:You know? And the whole overnight success thing, you know, when people talk about that, it's like, yo, I've been working on this for a long time. Or
D Watkins:You you gotta understand, bro. I know people that, I know people that push this shit hard for 30 years and it didn't pop until year 31. And when they pop, they pop, like when they pop, I'm not talking about pop light, a, a, a news article. I'm not talking about pop light, you know, opportunity. I'm talking about from bro, let me hold 500 to, you know, bro, I'm up I'm up 10,000,000.
D Watkins:You need some? Like, I've seen I saw it with my own eyes. Like, I saw it. And and the beauty of it is is you know how they made it 30 years? Because they didn't base it on who's talking about them.
D Watkins:They didn't base it on press. They didn't base it on, you know, the respect that they deserve. They based it on, I have a beautiful product, and I'm gonna work hard at perfecting that product, and I'm gonna get better at it, over a course of time. And the world catches up. And I and I, you know, and I'm and and then I and the view is that they weren't popular and they weren't bitter because they were so happy that they were creating something beautiful at a high level that they didn't have time to sit around and soft on pedestrian shit like I didn't get invited to the ball.
D Watkins:You know what I'm saying? Like, they didn't they didn't do that. And, you know, when I say that, people would they sometimes they, like, they look at me as if I'm speaking from a place of privilege, and it's like, yo, you because you you assuming. You don't know what the fuck I've been through. Even and because when I tell you, you don't even listen.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:It's true. It's true. Like, when when I get these these different things at the end and I like what you said, it was like, it's levels to it. You know, when I get these sort of opportunities, people are like, oh, you should be thankful. I was like, no.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:No. My vision is is is is bigger than that, and I'm chasing whatever my vision is. And that may not align with this thing that you say is of a really high value. I may look at, like, this is a Tuesday, or I'm like, wow, I really want that. And it's like, well, that's not the best thing for you.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:Well, I feel like I want that. And sort of the other thing of just because I do this and I yap, it's like, yo, I am quiet. I I I hang out in the back. I'm trying to avoid people. I'm 64.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:I don't like being seen. And I stay out of the scene a lot of times, but, you know, folks pop up and say, hey. I've listened to you for all of these episodes, so I know you. So, like, you don't know me, bro. Let's let's let's have a real conversation.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:Maybe you didn't get to know me, and maybe we can build something off of that. But, you know, I'm not around a lot. You know, as I touched on earlier, the the folks that have my number and I chitchat and correspond with in that sort of way, you know, those are people that I actually dig. But, you know, not everybody has that for that access. If I show up to your thing, if I show up to your event because I don't go out for these things, because it's not about being seen and every photo op and all of that, I don't value that.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:It's cool to get that invite. It's cool to see that sort of acknowledgment and, you know, kind of the same way that you're describing it of, yeah, you know, sure. If I get it, great. But also, if I don't get it, I still got interviews to do. I still got work to do.
D Watkins:And I had and it's it's and I don't wanna say it. I like it's easy. It is not easy to think you're supposed to win something or you're supposed to get a grant or opportunity and not get it. It is not. It is not easy.
D Watkins:What I'm saying is that it is okay if you don't. It is beautiful if you do. If you don't, it doesn't mean you're a loser. It doesn't mean you should quit. It doesn't mean that the world hates you.
D Watkins:You know what I'm saying? It doesn't mean that I've been teaching I've been a professor for maybe, like, 12 years now, and I've seen, you know, I've seen Instagram in its infancy to the point where it controlled my classroom to the point where it's TikTok. You know, I've saw I have had writing students write a whole 5,000 word papers on how they're shadow banned. And I'm like and I'm just, you know and I'm, you know, I'm and I'm I'm like, yo, you if you wanna be in the art world, your mentality has to be super you have to have a you have to be mentally stable. You have to have you have to have like a invisible helmet on your head because people are gonna crack you in it every day.
D Watkins:And if you want that life, I you know, my daughter, my 4 year old daughter, her favorite thing to do is draw. Her second favorite thing to do is paint. She wants to be an artist. She wants to be an artist. And I'm terrified.
D Watkins:Like, she's only 4. I'll be saying shit like, yo, you should fuck with tech. Like, like, yo, maybe you should be, you know, in a app development and I'll let it, you know, and she's looking like, what's a app? Because she's 4. But I know she got that art bug.
D Watkins:I know she got it, and I know that that's gonna come with a certain amount of pain. It's gonna come with pain. And I don't you don't wanna see you don't wanna see people we love go through pain. You know? But, however, you know, I I got the art bug too, so I'm just
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:I'm gonna be there. You know
D Watkins:what I'm saying? I'm I'm gonna be there. Do the rejections and do the the fellowships and the wins. I'm I'm I'm a be there. And that's, you know, that's all we can do.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:Yeah. It's like this this cycle. Like, you know, I had it, you know, super early and then rediscovered it in a sort of a different way. And it's it's just one of those things that doesn't go away. Yeah.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:I had an interview, a little while ago, and I was talking about sort of, you know, wanted to be an illustrator when I was a kid. And, you know, you get the and I've mentioned this before, but you do the whole let's go to the art school. Let's see if you're good enough to get in and all of that. And really not didn't get in and not really sure how to process rejection, so I just kinda put that thing away. You know, as far as I wanna be an illustrator, it's like, I'm just gonna do something else.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:And one for something that felt very, like, distant and alien to it, it's just like, I'm gonna do business, and we're gonna figure this out because this is stable and this is, you know, something that I can do. And I came back to to to art or creative, expression, but with having that sort of foundation in business, like, years later. And it's just like, oh, okay. This is the version of it that fits me as an individual, my own version of it versus this is the road map that someone else has picked for you.
D Watkins:Sure.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:So there was one thing that you mentioned, though. I definitely wanna touch. It's a good question relates to this. You touched on TikTok. You touched on Instagram or what have you and check on fans and all, which is great.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:Do you distinguish, like, art and creative expression from, like, content? And, you know, what are the qualities, if so, that separate one from the other? And where do they overlap?
D Watkins:I'm a artist. I'm not a content creator. Content creators, they and I'm not against content creators. But I think content creators, I think they serve social media. They serve the Internet.
D Watkins:They serve, these platforms. They serve these platforms that need that need them, you know, us to be funny, to be creative, to put out ideas. They serve these these platforms who need them to sustain. I'm a writer with no content, with no social media. I'm a writer with no Internet.
D Watkins:I'm a writer of books. If we're being technical, then you know, you can, you can just, you can call anything, content. But, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm not a content creator. I think if the Internet goes away, content creators kind of go away and I'm not, I'm not going anywhere.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:I love that. And the way that you described it, I I was doing the checklist in my head. You know, the Aquarius thing, right? We overthink everything.
D Watkins:Yeah. Absolutely.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:And I'm like, would I still do these interviews if I didn't have this? I was like, yeah, I would just do it this way. I would still get into conversations, and I find that my way of doing conversations I always feel like I'm interviewing people now because my curiosity is the thing that drives it, and that's not something that has anything to do with the sort of content. In fact, I don't get enough clicks to be a content creator.
D Watkins:And I need them. I need them. Like, I need I need I need, I need content creators to help promote and push products that I create. So just because I don't, you know, I'm not one of them, you know what I'm saying? It doesn't mean that like what they, what they do is important.
D Watkins:What they do is important. What I do is important. And we've created, we created this reality where we are able to support, where we're able to support each other. And, you know, that's, that's, that's cool to me too.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:Thank you. So I got, I got 2 more real questions for you. I want to ask you this one about Salon, like particularly over the past 5 years. Like, how has the sort of publishing and the and and the journalistic bent to to work changed over the last 5 years? And how has that influenced your approach to to what you do with Salon?
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:And I and I asked this because I go back to this interview I did with, Grouchy Greg Watkins, not related to either of us, on all hip hop dot com. And, you know, he was, you know, talking about getting the story right in this sort of world where it's a push to get a thing out quickly and have a a piece on something very quickly versus put putting the cure and attention to it. So what what are your insights and your thoughts on sort of the publishing industry and sort of the online writing piece over the last, like, 5 years or so?
D Watkins:So I think at one point, Salah had me on that. They had me on a quick response. And then as as a team as a team, we decided that I'm more powerful when I get a chance to sit back and analyze and come up with an angle that doesn't exist. So we found a sweet spot for me, whereas I get to watch the world do the quick reaction for clicks, but I get to give the insight based off of, that luxury of fully processing an idea. I get to respond and I get to have the article that's gonna be in rotation for 7 years versus the one that was hot for a weekend.
D Watkins:And we figured that out and it's hard. That was a hard decision for them because, you you know, it's a business. So you want you want all of those instant clicks. You know what I'm saying? But it was it was them supporting me and and and, and, and giving me a more difficult task.
D Watkins:It's hard to have the take. It's hard to have the late take that you, what you got to think because the pressure's on, like they, you know, it's more pressure. But, but yeah, they, they looked out, you know, they looked out, they looked out when they were like, yo, you know, we, we think he's, we think he's, he has good ideas sometimes. And we think, we think he has good insight. So we're going to give him like an extra little couple of days to really process stuff before we expect him to to just jump out there and just give us 2¢.
D Watkins:I also think the quick reaction in life, none of my quick reactions, like, I trust my instinct, but if I just go through my life and I look at the worst decisions I made, the bulk of them were probably connected to instant responses. I look at some of the best decisions I made, the bulk of them are probably from me taking a beat and just looking at all the evidence and then saying this is what I should do.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:Yeah. That's that's a very, very aquarius answer there. I'm I'm on the same page. I find, like, it's it's funny that I do the rapid fire questions, which are coming up after this next question. But, yeah, when, you know, I have a chance to to take a moment to think about things, especially observing podcasting and seeing sort of the lack of care and attention that's being put towards editing or folks that are getting this opportunity to to write because, you know, those writing gigs for some of the big publications we know, they're not the most they're not as fruitful as they used to be.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:And so more and more folks are coming in, you don't wanna make it seem like it's sort of amateur hour, but it's just like we need a body to fill this seat. And it was someone I had to correct a minute detail on, but it was their headline. And I was like, oh, that's that's their headline is not right, actually. And he was
D Watkins:just like, well, what I mean?
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:I was like, but your headline is not right. That's the first thing that someone's gonna see, and that's now sort of the H1 if you want to use the online jargon for it. I say, just write good stuff, be accurate, take a beat versus I need to be the 1st person to get it out there because often you're you're wrong, you know? So this is this is sort of the last question I have, and this is the one that, you know, goes back to what we were talking on a little bit before we got started. So I'm very curious about examining artists or creative attrition.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:You know, artists often leave like a community due to a perceived lack of support, you know, And we talked about its levels. Sometimes it's tied to cycles of making work. You know, we have, these this cycle of rejection and occasional wins. And at times, we're told that, you know, I've been told at times that I should do something different or take maybe this series elsewhere. You should leave Baltimore.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:So in your opinion, what does support look like and what role does it play does it play in your ability to keep going with sort of the cycle and sort of having that art bug and it not being in the easiest journey?
D Watkins:That's that's a great that's that's a great question. And it's a great question because it's a great question because support changes. Like, it it it it changes. Like, you know, I used to have what, so before the pandemic, I used to have book events and like it would be like 300 people there. After the pandemic, I have I have I've had book events with like 3 people there.
D Watkins:You know what I'm saying? I want me and my friend, one of my homies, we went to an event before I had my surgery. We went to an event for New York in New York for Black writers. And and writers who I I like and I look up to. They were breaking their neck to get into my section to take pictures and tell me how much they love my stuff.
D Watkins:And all I could think about is, wow, when I have a book come out, I don't see y'all. I don't hear from y'all. Y'all, y'all be in my DM saying congratulations, but y'all don't share it and y'all don't really y'all don't put it out there. So it's like, what is, like, what is what is, like, what is happening? You know what I mean?
D Watkins:So I think about how that stuff makes me feel, and then I carry that into I carry that into how I try to support how I try to support when I get opportunities to to support. Years after being denied by the school system, you know, my books have become required reading. You know what I mean? But that's support. That's that's more than support.
D Watkins:That's an honor. That's just like a super honor that they that they deem what I do worthy enough to to make it a part of a part of what they do. But, you know, for me, it's the it's the simple stuff. If you like a article, share it. If you like the book, share it.
D Watkins:If you, you know, want to be entertaining, you want to hear some jokes, cast some wine and pop out to an event. You know what I'm saying? It's the it's the it's the simple stuff. But, it's also another part of it is just me understanding that nobody owes me anything and nobody's required to do anything and nobody has to care about my art. And I don't even like, I'm blessed to be a working artist.
D Watkins:People literally are not required to care. Actually, I'll take it a step further. The world doesn't require me to even be here. Like, I am literally lucky and blessed to be here and, you know, instead of some entitled person walking around acting like I'm some kind of tortured genius because I'm not a genius and I'm not tortured. I'm I'm just a hard worker who's fortunate to be here, and I'm just I'm I'm thankful for that.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:That's a that's a great great point, a great way to
D Watkins:Leave that tortured genius shit in 2024. Like, nobody gets me because I'm just so special. I'm too special to put out a project because I'm so I'm just so interesting and just so I'm so easy on the eyes.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:Love that. I'm trying to make that my gimmick going into 2025. I wanna, you know, when people ask me, do you know this person? I don't know who that is. It's just, you know, just overarching.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:It's like, I know everyone. I'm like, I don't know who that is, and I'm a torture genius podcaster that has a podcast. But, yeah, thank you so much for for that. And before we wrap up, I got 3 rapid fire questions for you. I just wanna throw you away.
D Watkins:I got 3 rapid fire answers.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:Alright. So, and and it ties into that this this last one since, you know, you're required reading, you know, in in certain instances in in the school system. So for you, what are the 3 required books on the D. Watkins must read list?
D Watkins:Oh, that's a good one. Man, I'm gonna say D. Watkins reading list, you need to read you need to read my book, Black Boy Smile. That's on there. You need to read Jesmyn Ward's, men the men we read the men we read.
D Watkins:You need to read Jasmine. You can't have a list without Jasmine. Jasmine is is the goat. You need to read Jason Reynolds Long Way Down. You know what I'm saying?
D Watkins:Jason Reynolds is a is a real genius. You know what I'm saying? He's not tortured at all. He's just boxing around with his big brain, you know, trying to hold it up in his head. He's a genius.
D Watkins:So definitely, with Jason Reynolds, we're Long Way Down, you get that you get that lyrical bounce, of just trying to, you get that lyrical bounce of, a a young boy going through a difficult situation. In Jesmyn Ward's book, The Men We Reaped, you get an understanding of, what it's like to be a black man in America who has to go outside and and and be a protector and and a provider, in the same world where white men have to do the same thing, but they get to do it without racism. And the the men in that book, you know, they slowly picked apart, they all die. And it's it's not fiction. And the Black Boy Smile is, just a book.
D Watkins:And the reason why I put my book on there is because it basically talks about the illusion of relationship and emotional destinations. There's no destination. We are a work in progress. We'll be working on ourselves until we die. And if we don't acknowledge, you know, some of the fucked up thoughts and feelings and some of the bad things that have played out our thoughts and our minds and our actions, then, we'll never grow.
D Watkins:And to understand, you know, the purpose is is to continue to grow up until you die. The purpose is not you don't turn 45, you don't turn 55, and you don't turn whatever age and say, wow, I got it all answered. I'm the I'm balanced. I'm answering everybody's questions right. I make everyone feel good.
D Watkins:I'm just the best person ever. No. You something else will come into your life, and you will be challenged and you'll have the opportunity to see the error in your ways and you'll continue to grow. So that that's why I chose those. But I know it's rapid fire.
D Watkins:I guess I'm I'm I'm like, I'm talking, but I I gotta I gotta, you know, the the the teacher in me has to say I have to give that to show them work.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:I I I appreciate it. You know, as a as a person that's done the education thing in the last year, I've been down that rabbit hole. I appreciate the thoroughness of your answer. I give that a, you know, give it a a minus. You know, you just, you know, I want it to go to your head.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:So this is the next one. How many hours of sleep do you get on average?
D Watkins:I don't sleep a lot, but I've been trying to sleep more since I I've had I had an osteotomy, couple of weeks ago, and I've been trying to sleep like I've been trying to sleep half the day because I'm just trying to heal and I'm trying to get back outside. So, I've been sleeping I've been sleeping more since I've been sick, but, in in in a real world, I would love I would love I would love to get a good 8, 9 hours, in my world, you know, as a as a person who is I'm not gonna say I'm newly married, but I'm 5 years in and we have a we have a 4 year old daughter, that 9 hours turns into, like, 4. And before she came here, I'm you know, I I was always I was super ambitious for a long time and so was my wife. So we're, like, people who wake up 3 o'clock in the morning, 4 o'clock in the morning, and we just work. Or we wake up or, you know, we go to bed at, like, 7 PM, and then we might get up 1 o'clock in the morning, and then we might work until the sun.
D Watkins:So we're them kinda we don't we're those kinda people not knowing that that was an option, not knowing that we believed that option when we had a child who's a night owl who's a night owl too. And, you know, and she gets up and she wants to she doesn't wanna get up and and and and and label mommy and daddy. She wants to get up and have full conversations, 4 o'clock in the morning. Like, she wants to, you know, understand the questions about the world, about the about God, about the universe. I'm like, yo, is she a little quiet?
D Watkins:Like, where is she drifting off to a 4 o'clock in the morning with these thoughts? But, you know, I wouldn't I wouldn't trade it I wouldn't trade it for nothing.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:I could almost see her popping over to you. It's like, you said, dad, you mentioned tech earlier. Right? I wanna get
D Watkins:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. She got some game.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:So this is the last one, and I definitely wanna dive into the, the piece around, like, writing and and working in television a bit. That's where this question kinda comes from. So we're in this land of IP. So tell me which classic show or spin off of a classic show that you're like, I wanna write this year. I wanna write this season of this show.
D Watkins:Oh, man. It's only it's only one show I really wanna sink my teeth into, man. But I'm not I'm not you know, and I I've been I've been I've been in his ear, but it ain't it ain't happening. I want I just one of the biggest one of the most saddest parts of my career is that I wasn't a writer. When The Wire when The Wire was was being made, I wasn't a writer.
D Watkins:I was, you know, one of the guys they based Kirkus off of. But but when I go back, you know, like, you know so people would like they always talk about David Simon, and David Simon is another one. David Simon is a legit genius. David Simon is a genius straight up. Like, he's he's he's he's that guy.
D Watkins:And they talk about David Simon when they talk about that show. When they talk about Ed Burns, another really, really smart guy, they talk about Ed when they talk about that show. But that show had George Pelecanos, who is, one of the most serious, one of the best, another genius, one of the best crime novelists ever. And George George wrote all the murder scenes for The Wire. So if you remember the murder scenes that Michael b Jordan with that little single tit, all that, the string about George wrote those murder scenes.
D Watkins:So it's like it's like, and he's one of my mentors. But then the show also had Richard Price writing on that. Richard Price wrote the book Clockers, that Spike Lee made the film on. And Richard Price show was that joint the night of, on HBO. So it's like it has some serious and I'm like, serious people in that room who were, like, the best at what they did.
D Watkins:And, you know, as I work and try to develop and develop and develop, you know, I wanna you know, like, HBO HBO hit me up to pull out that wire book, and it's like I I think I said, yeah, before they even before they even start talking about money, I was like, of course. Not like, I can't say no. Like, even if you you know what I'm saying? Pay me an Air Force 1s. Like,
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:yo,
D Watkins:I was saying yes because that show was it came to me late, but it was transformative in my thinking. It was transformative in how I saw myself as an artist. It was transformative in how people outside of my environment looked at me. So it was and it was also transformative in my understanding of different industries, how they intersect and make cities function and thrive and fail. So if I had a chance to to jump on that, I would I would I would jump on that, man.
D Watkins:But, you know, why why you're not coming back? Why it not coming back?
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:Someone just trolls it. It's like, yeah. So, you know, we have, Dee Watkins' rewired, and it's like, well, how's that hyphen in there? We we didn't ask for that. We didn't come on, HBO.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:Let's do let's do something different.
D Watkins:Yeah. No. No.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:Yeah. So so that's it. Thank you so much for coming back onto the podcast, and, there's one more thing I wanna do as we, you know, close out here. I just wanna give you the space and opportunity to, you know, share any final thoughts that you have, you know, any sort of, hey, check check out my website. Anything along those lines, the the floor is yours.
D Watkins:Yeah. You know, I I think I would say, you know, support support Baltimore, man. Support this podcast. You know, support Rob. Support me.
D Watkins:Support, you know, everybody, man. Devin Allen, Lady Breon, Mama Koko, the whole the whole joint, man. Support support the city, man. Like, you know, we got some good stuff going on here. And the biggest mistake you can make is to think you know what we're working on and what we've done, because we do new stuff all the time.
D Watkins:There's new people are like, oh, this is Dewey Watkins, man. He's a good writer, man, good person. He's wrote, like, 3 books. No. I got 8 books, dawg.
D Watkins:Like, I don't have 3. I have 8. Like, tell the whole truth. Like, the truth is in the art. You feel me?
D Watkins:Like, hey. Tell the whole
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:Oh my god.
D Watkins:Tell the whole truth. But I think people think, like, oh, yeah. I know what he's gonna talk about at a show. No. You don't.
D Watkins:Because I'm reading and studying and learning every day. I don't even know what the fuck I'm a talk about. But I guarantee you will be entertained. So don't don't don't think you know what we got going on. You know, engage us and then send us your stuff so we can engage you, and that's how we build community.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:And there you have it, folks. I wanna again thank Dee Watkins for coming back on to the podcast and sharing some of those updates and giving us, you know, a peek inside of where he's at in his career and in his world. And for Dee Watkins, I'm Rob Lee saying that there's art, culture, and community in and around your neck of the woods. You've just gotta look for it.
