Black Theater Evolution: LeeAnet Noble & Dr. Drew Lichtenberg at Shakespeare Theatre Co.

ROB LEE: Hey, welcome to the truth in this art. Thank you for taking some time to listen to these conversations at the intersection of arts, culture and community. I am your host, Rob Lee. And today I am thrilled to introduce my next guests, resident dramaturg and associate director at the Shakespeare Theatre Company in Washington, D.C. My guest brings a distinguished career spanning Broadway and various academic institutions. Joining my guest is a world renowned multi hyphenate artist and the director of equity and belonging at the Shakespeare Theatre Company in Washington, D.C. They are known for making contributions, significant ones, and teaching Black theater history and directing groundbreaking productions. Please welcome Dr. Drew Lichtenberg and LeeAnet Noble. Welcome to the podcast.
LEEANET NOBLE: Thank you. Thank you for having us. Drew, I think you're muted.

DR. DREW LICHTENBERG: Hi, Rob. I was going to say, hi, Rob. Thanks for having us. Hi, LeeAnet.

ROB LEE: Thank you. Thank you both for coming on. And, you know, I'm glad we were able to chat a little bit before we got into recording in earnest. There's a lot of value, even if it's the sort of the pre sort of green room talk, being able to connect a little bit just to say, like, I'm not just some dude with questions I want you to answer, but it's like, hey, you know, I'm curious. So. Before we get into sort of the deeper conversation within this podcast, and it's in the pre, but I like to give folks the space because I think it's more value in having folks introduce who they are versus I can say it is a cut and paste. You know, people will say, Rob, introduce yourself. I'm like, I'm a podcast wizard. And it's like, that's not how I would introduce you. So I want to give both of you the space to introduce yourselves, and then we can just start going into the deeper conversation. So Drew, if you'd like to start.

DR. DREW LICHTENBERG: Sure, yeah. So my name, I'm Dr. Drew Lichtenberg. I'm an Associate Director at Shakespeare Theatre Company in Washington, D.C. I've been in residence here since 2011, so it's been a while. I'm a proud resident of the District of Columbia, and I've also worked at, I've worked on Broadway, I've worked at the National Theatre in London, I've published two books. I've written for the New York Times. It's a great job in the sense that I have my home base here in D.C. and I've worked on so many productions here of the first class of the highest caliber. But I've also been able to go work at other places in the theater universe. Thank you.

LEEANET NOBLE: Love that theater universe. Yes, Leon A Noble. I am the Director of Equity and Belonging at Shakespeare Theatre Company. I'm also part of senior staff and the artistic team alongside Drew. Yes, and I am also, I like to say shifter. I like the word shifter. That's on my LinkedIn page. It says shifter. I like to shift things through the arts. So, if that's through choreography, through directing, through music, through curating, through creating policies. I like to cause a shift. And yes, so I'll say shifter in addition to what I do at Shakespeare Theatre Company.

DR. DREW LICHTENBERG: And you have, Leona, you have shifted lots of things since we've been working together at STC.

LEEANET NOBLE: Oh, thank you. Thank you.

ROB LEE: I like that. Multi-hyphenate, shifter. Like I said, I wouldn't have gotten that. And I think that's why it's important. I wouldn't have had Shifter in my intro. It's not a thing. But now I know. And sort of we're going to kind of like ping pong it or have you with the questions. So I'd like to go back into the beginning, because I think that there are some of those those things. Ironically, I kind of added this question after speaking with a playwright, you know, about sort of where we're one of those early moments in this sort of podcast journey for you. And I was like, I was an emcee back in the day. I was like five. I'm terrified of the stage now, but I was like five and being able to, you know, be an emcee for this like school production. I feel like we were singing Lean on Me or something. But I went back almost 40 years to this this sort of age, and she pulled that out of me. So when you know, for for the two of you and being then, you know, the fine art space theater performance and all the other extensions that come out of that, what were some of those like early like memories that really served as like a catalyst to say, Oh, right. That was the first time I was on stage. Oh, right. That was the first time I read something from this particular playwright or this work.

DR. DREW LICHTENBERG: Well, I have one, Lena. Do you have one?

LEEANET NOBLE: Yeah. Would you go first? You go first.

DR. DREW LICHTENBERG: So my parents were theater people. I grew up around theater professors, playwrights, directors, designers. And I grew up in New England in Western Massachusetts. And when I was a teenager, or maybe even before I was a teenager, they took me to Hartford stage to see a production by this legendary avant-garde director named Richard Forman. who's been in residence at St. Mark's Church on the Lower East Side for decades, since the late 1960s. And it was a play where there was no realistic plot. There were no real characters. There was a guy dressed like a mad scientist playing a professor. And there were strobe lights that would shine in the audience's eyes. There were microphones that they would start screaming into. It was such a non-traditional theater experience in Hartford, Connecticut. And I had my mind completely blown. I thought, oh my god, I thought I knew what theater was. But there are also visionaries working in the theater who are doing things that are completely destabilizing your expectations, right? Completely surprising your expectations. So I've thought I still have the program. I think it was 1996, you know, that production. I still have the program and I still think about that when I think about what theater can do to people who are seeing it for like the first time. It can completely change everything that you think is possible.

ROB LEE: Wow. It's great. Thank you.

LEEANET NOBLE: Yeah, I also come from theater people, artist people. My grandmother taught me how to dance and sing and play the piano starting at age two. So I was put in it very, very young. And I would say, I would say two different memories, but my, which was one was my first recital, which was at Northwood Presbyterian Church, where my grandmother also preached from time to time. And I got to sing Annie tomorrow, where I forgot the rest of the words. I just sang tomorrow the whole time. I was four. And I got to do the alphabet. And I remember there was one point where I got a little nervous and my grandmother came over and she sang it with me. And when people clapped and the reaction and having that experience with her, I felt It was something I never felt before, and I couldn't wait until my next recital with her. And then when I was five years old, my mother was in a production called Santa and the Mother Goose Rock at Crampton Auditorium at Howard University, created and written and directed by Laverne Reed. And seeing these, it was the nursery rhymes with an all-black cast, full-on musical. It was also shown on WHMN PBS. And seeing my mom become that character, I was a flower. I was a flower and I was one of the kids in the shoe. And so in between I would come out and I couldn't wait to watch my mom perform across the stage. And so the connection with my grandmother and with my mother, it was sealed. I also wanted to become a doctor at the same time. Um, but I knew I was like, I'm going to be in the theater at night and I'm going to be a doctor during the day. And that's what, uh, that's what the goal was.

ROB LEE: I love that. I love that. I had this notion that I was going to be an astronaut and a comic book artist when I was a kid. It's just both sides. And, you know, even now, like, you know, I was touching on a little bit about what the day job for me looks like. I'm sort of living that balance now. I find a lot of times when you're, you know, chasing something creative and it may be something that isn't. something that people think there's a lot of quote-unquote money in, but you're getting a lot of satisfaction and joy and all of that out of it, and you feel like you're being satisfied creatively, I look at the day job almost as the funder. Like, you know, I have a data job, and I talk to people that are very talented, and I feel like I glean stuff off of y'all, but, you know, I look at it that way, as sort of a dual lifestyle, and I think, again, It's a little bit of that preordained thing, like the notion of trying to be an astronaut and a comic artist. Those two things didn't go together, but the thinking I think around it is present now. I got to ask because, you know, I've passed it a few times and I'm looking forward to going because I'm, you know, you know, I'm in Baltimore. You guys are in D.C. So I want to I want to hear about sort of the, you know, the story of how, like, you know, you started working with the Shakespeare Theatre Company. Like, what drew you there? What does the journey look like? How did that unfold? It's always interesting from where we started in some of those early moments to where we're getting to where we're at now. So how did that come about?

DR. DREW LICHTENBERG: Yeah, well, I was originally working, I think I was working at Center Stage in Baltimore at the time, and I was a member of the artistic team there, and there was a big conference in D.C. And I think the Sydney Harman Hall had just been built in 2007 or eight, and this was 2009, I think. So it was like one or two years old. And I remember thinking, oh my God, this, you know, huge glass lobby and these beautiful spaces. I think that we had a talk or a panel in the patrons lounge of Sydney Harman Hall. And I thought that's my dream job. If I ever wanted to have a dream job. And then it's a funny story because my predecessor went on that game show called Who Wants to Be a Millionaire at the time, which was very popular at the time, 15 years ago. And he was one of those people who answered all the questions and then chose to stop and take his money. So he won like $500,000 on the game show and then he abruptly quit his job at STC. So here I am thinking, that's my dream job. I'm never going to get that job. That guy is never going to leave. And then all of a sudden, I had the opportunity to apply, and luckily enough, get hired. And when you look at STC, you see a historic theater. It's been around since 1986. It's toured to the Royal Shakespeare Company. It's toured to the Athens Festival in Greece, I think in a production that you saw, Lee and A, as a young person living in DC, a production of the Oedipus plays, starring Avery Brooks. So it's a company with a very distinguished history and a very respected reputation in America, if not internationally. But it's also a really exciting moment for STC right now, because since the pandemic, we've had some of the most successful shows in the history of the company, including last year, our production of King Lear. which was the most successful Shakespeare production we've ever done. Wow. So it seems like right now, our star is kind of rising where we're breaking a number of records that we thought would never be broken, and we're getting subscribers in numbers that we didn't even see pre-pandemic. We're kind of taking it back to the 90s, to the golden age of the company when we were doing stuff like the Oedipus plays and going on international tours. So it's a dream job that's turned into like a really exciting incubator of energy and ideas and innovation in the D.C. arts scene.

ROB LEE: Thank you. Wow, that's amazing.

LEEANET NOBLE: As Drew mentioned, when I was a student at Howard, we were always required to go to the shows at Shakespeare Theatre Company for credit for our classes. And we'll stop. Rewind. When I was in high school, I'm very much a DMV person. I'm from Montgomery County. I still live in Montgomery County. I went to New York for a good 20 years, came back to Montgomery County. But yeah, in high school, my teacher, my English teacher, my drama teacher, offered some extra credit to join the shake troop. And I took the extra. I was very much about my grades at that point. And so I took the extra credit, ended up really liking it. And there was a program that Shakespeare Theater Company was doing with the class with us. And so that was like the first time I got to go to what is now the Klein Theater and go across the stage and perform. And it was just It was amazing. It was great. It was the biggest stage I had seen, you know, at that age. And in high school, sorry, in college at Howard University, I saw a production of the Oedipus plays. And in addition to Avery Brooks, there was Earl Hyman, there was Sabrina Labouf, these people that I grew up watching on television that I didn't know were classical actors. And I didn't, I hadn't seen a cast of classical actors that looked like that. It was all Black cast. It was set in Africa. It was beautiful. Everyone looked like royalty when they came out. And I was like, what is this? This is amazing. This is beautiful. And so that always stuck with me. Basically, we saw every production at Shakespeare Theatre Company when I was in college. that production in particular opened my eyes to classical theater in a way that I hadn't envisioned it before. So when the opportunity came to work at Shakespeare Theatre Company and I saw it, I was like, oh, this is great. And my initial position was curating a series of events and experiences around the productions and working alongside Drew for many of those. And then I shifted having such a passion for EDI and also being certified in it and getting involved in that work more and more over the years. when I came in at the position I was in at Shakespeare Theatre Company, I said, look, this is the work. I like the curating and connecting and doing these things, but I really want to get involved in the EDI work in a big way. And so when that opportunity opened up, shifted, and we moved into the artistic department, and then we blended the positions The position I had in the position that I moved into, so it was really a position that I was able to help curate and and shift accordingly, which has been great.

ROB LEE: Thank you. I actually have a follow up. Now I'm going to go off page now a little bit. You know, it's like freestyling. Improvisational jazz. That's what's happening. So, so talk a little bit, because I've had I've had a few folks on within the sort of Jedi space, because I know that Jay is in there sometimes, too. And, you know, I had to probably tell you about this off mic, but I had a very interesting meeting about this, about folks not believing that biases exist in the hiring process. Very interesting. And so talk a bit about sort of how perhaps like your background and sort of your experiences kind of informed your role now. Like where does that like kind of come in and why was that sort of a focus for where you wanted to go at within your career?

LEEANET NOBLE: Me?

ROB LEE: Yes, please. Sorry. Yes, yes.

LEEANET NOBLE: Well, starting off, I was the kid that would go into the toy store as a little girl in elementary school and would recognize that all the dolls look the same and where are the dolls that don't look like this. And I would take the dolls that were in the back and put them in the front and lined them up. So there was like, and every time I went to the toy store as a little kid, I went to the Barbie section and I would move around the dolls. So, you know, I'm like, there's Asian dolls here. There's Indian dolls here. There's black dolls here. Why aren't they all in the front with the rest of the dolls? So, and one of the first books I finished in middle school was the Angela Davis story. it's always been connected in my art and what I do. And again, that shifting part. My mother and I did a collaboration with Rick Owens that made a lot of waves in the world of fashion, has been inducted into museums around the world for shifting fashion and what people call conventional beauty. And so it just connects in because I think because of who I am, I think because of who my mother is, who my grandparents were, and being in a household of artists, activists, I'll say. So when I stepped into the inside of theater and saw the lack of diversity, because honestly, I didn't see it as much looking at the stages and what people were presenting. And when I stepped inside and saw wow, this is, this is, this is, this, this, what's, what's going on here? I started getting involved in a, in a different way, even though I had one role, I would get involved, I would get heavily involved in, okay, what are we doing? What's on our walls? What are we saying? What's in our policies? How are these things lining up? So that was kind of, the path I was on for the different theaters that I had worked at. So when I got to Shakespeare Theater Company, it was already something that I had been doing with other theater organizations. It was already something I do in my art and in the work that I do and connecting with communities. So I would say it was, like I said, right when I stepped in, I spoke with my supervisor. I said, look, if anything shifts or anything happens, I really would like to step into a position that looks like this. So, yeah. So, it was just seeing the necessity and seeing the lack that was happening in a lot of places. And people was, you know, in talking to leadership and talking to people, they really had a sense of, I want to do better, but I don't know how. And so what does that look like? What does that process look like? What do those trainings look like? And being able to tailor those trainings according to the place's needs and what's happening with each place, because every place is different. And it is, across the board, it's something that, you know, with We See Why American Theater and other things that have taken place, that it was, Within many theaters, not within all, so it's just creating those paths and how do we actually make a difference? So I work closely with our director of HR and policymaking and and also being able to say, okay, is this working? Is this process working? We need to have the flexibility to shift and change it. according to what is productive. It's an ongoing process. It's continual work. This is continual work. There's been so many systemic blockages that have been put out there that we have to continuously do the learning. We have to continuously do the training, do the work, shift the policy, shift them again if we need to. I'm grateful to be at STC at a time where Simon Godwin was coming in. We came in around the same time. in the company, Simon Gottman is our artistic director. And for the first time, under his leadership, we had a Black playwright produced at Shakespeare Theatre Company. And there were actually two write-off. So, two write-off, Brandon Jacob Jenkins, as well as James Baldwin. And that had never happened in the history of the company before. you know, being charged with curating a James Baldwin festival in my first year at Shakespeare Theatre Company was like, what? He said that to me. I was like, this is this is great. This is great. So, yeah.

ROB LEE: So I'm hearing a bit that STC is helping dreams come true. And it is this thing where, you know, we go back again, as I was touching on a little bit earlier, some of those earlier moments, you know, in our, you know, like, when was the first time you saw a play? When was the first time you saw a stage of this size? And I remember here, you know, there is a venue and, you know, I remember going there as a kid, seeing like maybe some Christmas plans. I remember I really enjoyed it as a kid. But it had been years, probably decades, maybe two since going back. And, you know, I saw that they were making some moves to bring in folks that look like me to do things and get opportunities and so on. And really being very, you know, specific in that approach, like we're working in this way, we're curating, we're partnering. I said, OK, this is great. And I feel like in this last year, you know, again, it's been like 20 or whatever years that I hadn't been there in this year. I've gone four times for four different events and unique events and things that like, wow, OK, you guys are doing this. All right. This is this is unique. And, you know, it's a person that I have. I'm very close with. He told me sort of the behind the scenes. He was like, they've gone back to the factory settings. And it's sort of that ongoing work you were touching on, I think, where it can't, especially here, you know, you have some of these these cities, I think, like Baltimore, I think there's a lot of cities that have this similar sensibility. If it comes off or it looks like it's fake or face value, you lose, you lose your people, you lose that support. I think the community part is very important.

DR. DREW LICHTENBERG: Yeah. And, you know, we were talking about the history of Shakespeare Theatre Company and how If you look at the history of Shakespeare theater in the 80s, there was a production of Othello starring Avery Brooks that also had the recently departed Andre Brouwer, who's one of the great actors of all time, star of Homicide, Life on the Street, and he played Iago in that production. And the Amelia was also played by an actor of color, Fran Schell Stewart-Dorn, who was a longtime member of the company, right? And that was directed by Harold Scott, who directed a famous revival of Raisin in the Sun, you know, landmark production in the 80s, right? And then again, the Edispitz plays, but it's about doing the work, continuing to do the work. not ever patting yourself on the back and taking credit, right? I mean, I wasn't there, right? I can't take credit for those shows that are part of the history of the company, right? But how do you show up to work? And yeah, to have Lee and I come to me or come to Simon and for all of us to be in conversation, as well as other stakeholders that are a part of our extended community of colleagues and friends and family saying, looking at the season, look at the composition of the season. Are we being equitable? Are we being inclusive? How can we include people in the telling of Shakespearean stories, right? How can Shakespeare be something that is not defined narrowly, but defined in the most inclusive way possible? And that's why I was so proud to work on that production of The Amen Corner by James Baldwin, because that show premiered at Howard University, its world premiere in 1953, and had not been produced by a major professional theater company in DC until 2019 when we did it. And you look at the play, and you think, well, something's wrong with this picture, because this play is every bit as good a play as A Streetcar Named Desire, or A Cat on a Hudson Roof. It's an amazing play. I don't know if I can curse on this program, Rob, but I mean, you look at the play, and you go, holy shit, he was such a talented writer, James Baldwin. Not just an essayist, not just a novelist, but he wanted to be, and he was, a great American playwright, period. Right. So so I mean, that's that's why I love working at STC is because you can say yes to these things from the past. Right. Like the plays of Baldwin or like we're hoping like the plays of Lorraine Hansberry or other writers who have not been as well represented in the history of American theater. Right. On stage. And you can say, yes, that's part of our experience. That's part of the. The experience of being alive in the 21st century, these plays from the past can tell us profound things about what it means to be alive and to be a citizen of, you know, the District of Columbia now.

ROB LEE: Thank you. Thank you. And, um, yeah, it's, it's one of those things where, you know, like, um, my, my partner's dad, right. He, he was a playwright back in like the seventies and Jess was one of those, you know, black playwrights, like opportunities on out there. I'm not one of these two or three people. And, you know, one of the things I said was like, you know, in talking with her, I was like, you have all of the, you have all of his like manuscript, you have all of his works. It's like, connect with some folks, try to try to go back through it, because I was like. original things or things that have been unearthed or just getting those sort of opportunities. It's almost like now is the time. Now is the time to, if it's of interest to sort of dive into it, because it's been that, that like sort of history in these different places where we'll try this for a while and then move on or, but it seems to be more of a focus in that area. And as a person who, I do this, I do podcasts and, but as a person who is interested in and having a broad layer of interest. I don't just try to only talk to other podcasters, other people in Baltimore or other, I try to talk to a wide swath of people because that's where my interests lie. And I think that there's people that are going to click and connect and relate to it and feel seen and maybe be inspired by having someone that looks like them on the stage and are the people that are writing it and their sensibilities are being represented within the work.

DR. DREW LICHTENBERG: Well, and I know, Leigh and I, you know, you used to work at Cleveland Playhouse, and we've talked about Karamu House in Cleveland, which is like a historic black company going back to the 20s, right before the Harlem Renaissance, even. It's been continually in operation.

LEEANET NOBLE: Yes, the oldest professional Black theater in the United States.

DR. DREW LICHTENBERG: That's right. And you say, well, why is the Karamu House still operating but not as big as some of these other historically white institutions? And there's a whole history there of the fact that these institutions have existed for hundreds of years in some cases. And there have been people like your partner's father, the playwright, like Ed Bullins, you know, like you can just Ozzie Davis right now, who's being revived on Broadway. You can just go down the list of these people who are trailblazers. But it's about the work that continues to this day. Right. And how can we continue to be part of that work? Right. To do that kind of good work that needs to still be done.

ROB LEE: One hundred percent. So I want to, I want to ask this, Drew, like, you know, you touched on it a bit, sort of some of the, the other names that start popping up, you know, Broadway, National Theater, you see, you know, Paul Witt Hansberry, obviously Shakespeare. Talk about sort of like how the, that experience and being involved with productions on both sides of it or multiple sides of it and how sort of your academic background influences how you do your work with STC and how you go about your work as a dramaturg, all of these different things that are out there. But talk about like all of what's baked in to you being the, you know, being in the role that you're in.

DR. DREW LICHTENBERG: Right, and your original question was like, talk about being a nerd, right? It was, thank you. Which, you know, I'm not, I'm proud to be a nerd. I'm proud to be like a bookish person. Like I do, I've written two books, you know, my writings appeared in the New York Times. I've written program notes for Lincoln Center and the National Theater and ACT in San Francisco, you know, like, I'm definitely very used to kind of like the behind the scenes part of like supporting other collaborators, like a director or a playwright or a group of actors in helping them to tell their story as well as they can tell it. You know what I mean? But that being said, like there's also like a whole other part of the job like this, where it's about being out in the community, being a more public face of the of the company right talking to audience members talking to community members about the importance of the work that we do so you know just like leonay was describing herself as somebody who's a shifter right who has to wear multiple different hats like I celebrate the part of me that is an introvert and a nerd and a bookish person and I also try to celebrate the part of me that like is is more of a public person or a more a more a performer type person right and I think everyone who works in the theater. has those two sides that they're constantly negotiating. There's the part of you that's performing and then the part of you that's rehearsing, right, or preparing for the next performance. So yeah, I mean, I would say that the fact that I've been able to go work at other places, in some cases really prestigious companies, you know, like in New York and in London, or at some of the great regional theaters in this country, It's just a metric of how important the work is that I'm doing back in DC. Because I don't think, you know, I wouldn't have met amazing artists if I didn't work at STC, who then asked me to go work with them at other places. You know what I mean? And I probably wouldn't have gotten hired to work at these other places unless they looked at my resume and said, Oh, he works at one of the great, you know, classical theaters in America. Right. So for me, it's all it's all connected. Right. It's all part and parcel of the same thing. Like I'm enhancing the standing of the theater, but the theater is also very much enhancing my career and who I am and how I'm seen by people.

ROB LEE: You know, that was a good answer. I feel like when I chop this up and post, it's going to be like that's part of one of the clips. It's just a bite-sized piece right there, I like it.

DR. DREW LICHTENBERG: But we're also used to, I think in theater especially, and in DC, we have a kind of inferiority complex about New York, right? And how like all the great culture, oh, that's the big theater capital of America, and Los Angeles is the great show business capital of America, right? And there's this kind of mindset that great work isn't being made here, right, you know, right down the street in our own hometown, right? But I've worked on shows and then I've gotten seen New York versions of the same show. Or I've even worked on a show that started at SDC and then went to London. And I was like, you know, I think it was better in DC. Like, I think something got lost in translation, you know? And that was one of the things that Simon said about Amen Corner. It was like, he had worked on a production at the National Theater. And he turned to me and he said, you know, Drew, I think this version is better. Like it's just flat out a world class piece of theatre, you know? So I'm really proud of the fact that I work at STC. And I think that like, yeah, it's just it's just good to celebrate the things that are great that you can you can easily take for granted, right? Because we don't have a sense of cultural pride in the mid Atlantic, you know, commensurate with New York or Los Angeles or these other global capitals.

ROB LEE: I love that you said that, because that's in part what I, you know, aim for in doing this. It's like, you know, I say it in a less refined way, but I think it's to get the point across. It's like you go to New York and you say something spicy, someone might punch you in the face. It's like it's sort of very similar energy. It's just like put respect on the contributions creatively, artistically, culturally that come out of this region. And also the way that I closed the show out, I was like, whatever it is, it's all around us. You just got to look for it. Sometimes it's hiding in plain sight. And, you know, I think it's really important to. you know, sort of give things their flowers while they're there. Like, you know, I, you know, here in Baltimore, you'll have people say, oh, I don't, I don't go to West Baltimore. I was like, that's, that's a 10 minute drive from, from East, but what, why don't you? And, you know, when I go to other cities and do interviews and have sort of this work ethic, the sensibility and how I approach what I do, I almost fit in immediately or they're like, you're like from LA or something, right? Like it's almost like you do this professionally and I was like, no, this is an independent project. I'm doing this and I do this in this way. And I try to be mindful and respectful of people's time and just do things that aren't quote unquote raggedy. You know, I like to have a certain approach to how I go about things.

DR. DREW LICHTENBERG: I've had so many experiences like that where people are like, you live in New York, right? And I'm like, no, actually, I don't. I live in D.C. and, you know, you can be a world class artist living in Washington, D.C. I'm not calling myself a world class artist. I'm just saying, you know, you can carry yourself like a professional because that's what you are. Also, doesn't Baltimore have the best lake trout sandwiches in the world? That's that is true.

ROB LEE: That is true. They are delicious. Some hot sauce is the way that I prefer mines. Less white bread.

DR. DREW LICHTENBERG: But yes, it's delicious. Well, everyone has their own different way of, you know, enjoying fine gourmet cuisine.

ROB LEE: Well, let's not get into food because I become a snob when it comes to food. I have chef friends here who are afraid to have me in their restaurant. It's like. play it now. So I got two more sort of real questions, and the next one is for Leona. So having the experience, I see Stomp, I see Drumstruck, I see Disney, and just other names like Alicia Keys, Bono, Rihanna. Talk about some of those experiences like, you know, this multi-hyphenate shifter experience. It's a lot there. that kind of lead into this advocacy and the work that you're doing with STC?

LEEANET NOBLE: Yeah. I mean, I've been in the field of entertainment again since I was two years old. I'm not going to say how many years that is because, because, but. That's good. But it's been a long time and coming from a family, you know, my mother is a producer, writer, performer, and my grandfather was best friends with Dizzy Gillespie. So I grew up like spending a lot of time with him and seeing the arts from a lot of different perspectives. And I think also because intentionally when I was a kid, I think my mother, my grandmother exposed me to things like Ebony Fashion Fair on a regular basis, the plays that I went to all the time running around. I was like that theater kid running around backstage at all the plays. Most of the plays that I saw had all Black cast. And so in seeing Black playwrights, Black cast going to Howard University, seeing the work that my grandmother did. She was a published author. She was a classical singer and a pianist who worked with the National Symphony Orchestra. I never felt limited in the arts. So it was something in connection to being, and I was in dance, and I was in acting classes, and I was in voice lessons, and I was in piano. So I had pieces of all of it. a very eclectic upbringing in the arts. So I just didn't limit myself in the arts. So, you know, I was in a professional tap dance company for a very long time. Somebody that worked in connection to Stomp saw that and saw me performing and invited me to a private audition. Yeah, it's a very interesting story, because I didn't want to perform at this particular event, and my mom was like, no, you need to just do it. Anyways, with somebody from Stomp ended up being there, and so I auditioned. I was like, this looks fun. Even though I'm still in college, you know, this looks fun. So I auditioned, and I got in. Worked with Lion King. They're starting an education division of the Broadway production company, where you have to write curricula, you have to learn all the dances and the songs and you have to connect in with workshops and you get to travel and curate and work on the development of different things. So I was with Disney Theatricals for nine years and it shifted as I was there and got to do really amazing things from series to developing, helping to develop Lion King kids and Lion King Jr. and just a lot of different things. I just, if I saw something that I felt I connected to, or I would, I just went for it because I didn't have those limits because of what I was exposed to. And I think that that's something that's really important for me in the next generation. And everyone, people getting the full story and knowing these things, the course that I teach for our graduate studies program is solely based on the Africa Company and the first Black playwright in the United States and this classical troupe of actors who were doing Shakespeare amidst slavery and risking their lives literally just to perform Shakespeare. People don't know that. They don't know the deep connection that Black artists have to that and just So I guess it's important for me, just like I saw myself in things growing up and in life, to try to influence those experiences. And because I have been a teaching artist, actor, director, choreographer, and doing EDI trainings and all those things, I can see things from different perspectives, different lenses. And the fact that I'm a part of the artistic team at Shakespeare Theatre Company, the discussions that I'll have with Drew, that Drew and I will have about productions and with Simon, our artistic director, I can look at it from a creative standpoint and also from what are we committed to? What are our, you know, we have an anti-racist action plan. How are these things tying in to the commitments that we've made for equitable and inclusive programming. So it's, I think it allows me to have many different viewpoints in the conversation and at the table.

ROB LEE: Thank you. That's, that's great. That is a great, I was just going to throw out there, like when I was going through all the research, I just kept seeing like Team Vicious pop up and I was like, all right, I see y'all here. I do my research. At least I try. I try to do my research. So the actual last question, I think it fits a little bit better in the closing remarks. So I'm going to move to something that I didn't even tell you guys about. I do rapid fire questions. I always do that with every guest. They can't escape them. They're easy questions. They're fun questions. They're weird questions sometimes. So don't overthink them. Here we go. So I got four of them. And, you know, it's a quick fire thing. So don't overthink it. All right. So here's here's the first one. What is the weirdest way you've heard the word dramaturge pronounced?

DR. DREW LICHTENBERG: Well, often people say is a dramaturge or is a dramaturge. So, uh, I think that's like the, the number one is like dramaturge is the wrong way of saying it and drama all day then. But, but the weird thing is that dramaturgy is the right way of saying dramaturgy, which is a reference to, you know, the dramatic structure of a play. So there's also, um, you know, that show, uh, called, um, smash that was on NBC that was like a Broadway show. There was one episode of that called The Dramaturg, you know? And also when Succession ended, there was an interview with one of the stars where he talked about dramaturgically, you know, I didn't have a problem with this character dying in episode four or five, right? So every so often, it's a word that enters the discourse and people who are not theater people are like, what the heck is that? You know, and theater people are like, yes, yes, we know it's a it's a it's a whole thing. Right. So it's more about the context in which the word dramaturge or dramaturgy comes up than it is about pronunciation. But it's also a word that I mean, my last name is Lichtenberg. So in fact, like Lichtenberg, dramaturge, my first name is Drew, Dramaturgy, Dramaturge. I've heard all I've heard all of those, Rob.

ROB LEE: You know, I like all of those. And Jeremy Strong is who you're referring to. I remember I became a bit because it's like, oh, this sounds so pretentious. I was like, it's actually a word, though.

DR. DREW LICHTENBERG: It's actually not. It's not pretentious at all. It's just completely germane to the context of what he's talking about. He's like saying he was like, as a piece of storytelling, it made sense to me. That's all he was saying. But people were people online reacted like he was being the most pretentious actor ever, you know. But but I want to say to all those people online, welcome to like literally every rehearsal room conversation about the play's, you know, storytelling. Because that's just the way actors and theater people talk. I'm sorry.

ROB LEE: That's great. That's great. I threw that one in there, especially for you, Drew. All right. So so here's here's the actual real three one. So real quick, what is if you were to summarize it in a few words, you know, what is your favorite thing about your work or the favorite thing about what you do? Like, however you like sort of summarize, it could be oriented to a specific role or however, but You know, what is the favorite thing about what you do? I like talking to people who just make the day more interesting. I enjoy that. I like having these sorts of conversations. I learn something. I'm always able to learn something that is a byproduct of doing this. But for you, what is like the favorite thing about your sort of day to day sort of your role?

DR. DREW LICHTENBERG: I mean, I like I like being able to read something. usually once a day, and it could be written 2000 years ago by a Greek playwright. It could be written 400 years ago. It could be written yesterday. And it makes me cry. It makes me gasp with wonder. It makes me laugh. It makes me appreciate being alive on this planet. And I get to do that at my day job. And that is such a gift and a privilege and an honor.

LEEANET NOBLE: I would say connection. I get to connect with every department in different ways. So if it's coming up with some digital content with the marketing department and or working with production on coming up with a cool way to do a stage reading. featuring students from Howard University, or if it's connecting with the learning department, or, you know, I connect with each department and people within the company in different ways, and as well as the community. So if it's connecting with an organization that has never been to the theater before, or young people in a different way, or, you know, it's just, I think, connection because In Connection, I learn more, I grow as a person and I'm also able to consistently work on my skills and connecting with people and listening and hearing and being able to support what their needs are as well.

ROB LEE: Wonderful. Thank you. So this one, you hear about superstitions. You know, I hear about a lot of different superstitions. You hear about, you know, you know, they'll say regular. But I have a superstition that I try to utilize and doing this podcast because I had an experience where. I couldn't get out introductions, hence I did my introduction before we actually got into the pod because I fumble my introductions all the time. So now just as part of practice, I don't read my introductions beforehand because it would just screw up my whole flow. That's now just a thing that sits there. And I always like wear my shirt backwards before a podcast. It's just something about it's a good luck thing. I don't know. Do you have any superstitions? Do you have any superstitions that you apply and maybe in sex with your day job or any other superstitions that you regularly engage in?

LEEANET NOBLE: Not really. I mean, I was like that kid that would that would be the one to sleep over doing the Hail Marys and getting on everybody's nerves and or Candyman and I was like, it's all make-believe. Like, calm down. Everybody would get all, you know, in a tiff about that. But, yeah, so no, not really. I mean, you know, we're in the world of theater. I will say this. Of course, I always say break a leg. You know, that's standard. I don't feel like that's even, like, when you say superstition, I'm like, that's not superstition. It's just standard. It's just, that's just what you do. You say, if we're working on it, a production of Macbeth and we're in the theater. We say the Scottish play like this. Just it's just what you do. I don't know if I'll say like I believe in it.

DR. DREW LICHTENBERG: It's just what I. Yeah, you don't say you don't say good luck. You say break a leg. Exactly. And you don't say Macbeth, you say the Scottish play. But, you know, I was in Berlin in the spring and they had never they were they were so confused when I told them about Macbeth having a superstition attached to it. They're like, what are you talking about? The Scottish play? What does that mean? You know, they could not they could not they were really amazed. So those are not always transferable. Those superstitions. I also think that in theater, You form communities really quickly in a creative process. So people are very adaptable and they will pick up each other's language You know, so one time I was working with someone who knew sign and he would say he would make this hand-knocking gesture to say yes You know, yeah, and I find myself doing that years later You know what? I mean you or like when I was working in England When you say goodbye to someone you say cheers You know Cheers But then Simon, you know, he's he says he calls people darling. He's like a different kind of English person who calls people darling. Hello, darling. You know, so like there's a kind of you pick up accents, you pick up sayings, you pick up phrases, you know, and that's one of the kind of fun little things about the job, I guess, to answer your previous question that like it becomes a part of your personality, you know, in a strange way, you know, which is fine.

ROB LEE: Thank you. And I think in And listening to a few of those things, especially the Macbeth thing, I'm just learning about that. I was watching Toast of London and I just now just giggle about it because it's like, oh, yeah, you're going to do Macbeth. And it's like, oh, yeah, Patrick Stewart's hair fell out when he was doing Macbeth. So you don't want that happening to you. And it's just all of the superstitious stuff is just in that episode. And it's just really funny.

DR. DREW LICHTENBERG: But also not to be the you know, the guy who rants on everyone's parade, but You know, Macbeth is a very violent play with a lot of sword fights in it, and it's also been performed more often than most other plays. So if somebody is going to get stabbed, the odds are it's going to be in a production of Macbeth. You know, like there's a reason that superstition is attached to that play, not because it's satanic or devilish, but because more things can go wrong in the violent plays that require special like Charlton Heston had his groin catch fire performing in a production of Macbeth. You know, but if there's a play without a fire effect, maybe your groin doesn't catch fire. So so some of these things are built up over the years, you know, into a superstition when there's a different, more logical, historical explanation for them.

ROB LEE: That's great. So this is the last one and then we'll close out. And I'm always curious about the sort of habits that creative folks have. So I just got to ask, you know, you touched on lake trout a little bit earlier, Drew. So I got to ask, what is your favorite meal? Ooh.

DR. DREW LICHTENBERG: Yeah. Favorite meal. Yeah. Like your expression earlier. Well, it's funny because my wife is also in the theater and somebody asked her this question. And and I loved her answer so much that I would say the same thing. She was asked to describe her favorite what kind of food she would be if she were to be a food. And she said a bowl of noodles, you know, because it's something that is intercultural, you know, like they originated in the East and in China and Asia, and they came to Italy. Right. And like you can go to Cincinnati and get chili on top of noodles. You know what I mean? Like it's a kind of a food that can can be a lot of different types of things, but it's always very nourishing to just have a hot bowl of noodles or pasta with whatever kinds of seasonings or toppings. Right. So like I've often had like long dark nights of the soul where a simple chicken noodle soup or a bowl of ramen or spaghetti and meatballs has served as a kind of a restoration of my spirit. So I'd have to go with that.

ROB LEE: So some drudels.

SPEAKER_02: What type of noodles, Drew? What type of noodle are you? I'm curious, like, you know, there's so many different types.

DR. DREW LICHTENBERG: I'm probably like I would probably today I would probably say that I am a kind of a hand pulled knife cut noodle, you know, the kind with all the funny little like bow ties on the side, but wide and flat and long.

LEEANET NOBLE: Is it like a rice? Are you grain?

DR. DREW LICHTENBERG: No, it's a it's a gluten. It's a glutinous noodle, but it's the kind that has a lot of like it's really good at absorbing like Sichuan peppercorns and tofu. And like and like it has like a little it has like a little bit of spice on it, you know, but it's but the texture of it is buttery and light and kind of gossamer. You know, so that's I mean, that's I will swear by some knife cut noodles. There's a place called Panda Gourmet in DC that has the most amazing knife cut noodles. So that's my local plug. Not buttery, but more like kind of oily and spicy.

LEEANET NOBLE: Oily and spicy, okay.

SPEAKER_02: Yeah.

DR. DREW LICHTENBERG: Are you laughing, Lena, because I'm doing the wife guy thing of saying what Rebecca said?

SPEAKER_02: No.

LEEANET NOBLE: We always tease about that question in general. I was just like, that is such a tough question. Like, what food would you be? But she had a great way of explaining it because when you first say noodle, it's like, wait, you're a noodle?

SPEAKER_02: How could you not love me?

LEEANET NOBLE: Yeah. Noodles are like, but the explanation comes through. It's like, OK, OK, OK, yeah.

DR. DREW LICHTENBERG: Is there a Baltimore, is there like a Baltimore noodle delicacy that I'm forgetting about?

ROB LEE: Not really, right? Not, not really. There's a few places, but not really. You know, we got the, the ramen place. That's the closest we got. Um, Toki, which was a, you know, DC place. Now it's up here. So we, you know, we kind of got, yeah, but that's about it. Yeah.

DR. DREW LICHTENBERG: I'm trying. Yeah. There's not. Yeah, exactly. It's not really a noodley kind of town, Baltimore. No, no. Seafood, seafood. Yeah, it's a crab, it's a crab town, Baltimore. Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_02: For sure, for sure. Yes.

LEEANET NOBLE: Well, Drew changed the question. It's like, what food are you or what's your favorite meal?

DR. DREW LICHTENBERG: That's also my favorite meal. That's also my favorite meal. Thank you. OK, OK, OK.

LEEANET NOBLE: Oh, gosh, I am such a food person. that this is difficult because I have so many different favorite meals. I can't, I feel like I'm being disrespectful to one. If I pick another, it's just, they wouldn't like it. I like healthy things. That's what I'll say. I like to know that I'm eating something that is nourishing to my health. and to my taste buds at the same time. That is like, it feels so good. I cook with a lot of turmeric, you know, the anti-inflammatory seasonings. I'm that person that people come to. It was funny because on the same day at Shakespeare Theatre Company, one co-worker came and said, I took your advice. I got a second opinion. on the concern that I had on a health concern and this and this is happening. And I was like, yeah, you got to get the magnesium oil and you got to do this and you got to eat this and do that. And then the next person came and said, oh my gosh, you know, thank you for telling me about those special cough drops with the ginger. So I'm that person. I like to, I like to discover new foods and things that I, then I like to, I like to read about them. If I eat meat or something of that sort, I want to know its whole life story. I want to know where it was raised, how it came up, who its parents were. So I'm just, I would say my favorite meal is a conscious meal.

DR. DREW LICHTENBERG: I like that answer.

LEEANET NOBLE: Yeah.

DR. DREW LICHTENBERG: I'm getting a kind of like a vegan Georgia Avenue kind of vibe now, LeeAnet, from this answer, you know?

LEEANET NOBLE: I know, I know, but I was vegan for like almost 20 years, and then I stopped. And so, but, but I'm now I'm just very conscious with like where anything I have comes from.

DR. DREW LICHTENBERG: Yeah, no, and there's a long history. There's a long proud history of veganism in DC. For sure. Yeah, for sure.

LEEANET NOBLE: Oh, yes. Yes. I do love going to New Vegan.

DR. DREW LICHTENBERG: That's what I'm saying.

LEEANET NOBLE: That's what I'm saying. That is a spot, you know, when people come to town and they say they're vegetarian or anything like that. I'm like, even if they're not, I know it's a spot that everybody will like something. And the garlic kale is everything for me. I love, I love the garlic kale at New Vegan. There you go.

ROB LEE: Thank you. That's great. So this is the last part. This is sort of the close out here. One, I want to thank both of you for coming on and spending some time. It's been a lot of fun to connect and chat. And and two, I want to give you, you know, one, the sort of space to share any of the social media website, all of that stuff and anything that's coming up in the next few months that you just want to detail. It's like the shameless plug portion of the podcast. So floor's yours. It's going to cascade out into the back. I'm going to fade to black. I'm just going to mute the thing.

DR. DREW LICHTENBERG: Well, coming up, coming up at the Shakespeare Theatre, As You Like It is still running. This is a runaway hit show featuring the music of the Beatles. It's already extended twice. So that's running into January in the new year. It's a fabulous show. And then after that, a much anticipated production of the Lehman Trilogy, the story of the Lehman Brothers, who built one of the greatest empires economically and financially in American history. And Tony Award winning play for Best Play. And then after that, another blockbuster show, The Scottish Play, Macbeth, starring Ralph Fiennes and Indira Varma, two of the greatest classical actors in the world. And that production is only going to be seen in Washington, D.C., in America, not in New York, not in L.A., nowhere else. And then finally, we're doing a production of the Magic Flute by the Tony Award winning MacArthur Fellowship receiving director Mary Zimmerman, and that's going to be a production that kind of like a storybook. is going to open up and the entire play, the entire opera by Mozart is going to come out of this miniature little matchbox. So I'm expecting that show. No one's talking about it yet, but people's minds are going to be completely blown by that production. It's going to be the magic flute like you've never heard or seen it before. So we have a really, really exciting season coming up at STC.

LEEANET NOBLE: Yes, yes. And Drew and I often collaborate on other experiences as well. We're going to be doing a stage reading of in the blood by Susan Lori parks, featuring students from Howard University as well as alum from Howard University. And throughout that process, the students work with drew and Dr. So, you could Colbert, who is also part of our artistic team and a dramaturge as well. And. So they go on a journey of diving into the world of dramaturgy, and then they shift into doing a stage reading. This is our third year connecting with students from Howard University in that vein. And we also have an audition workshop connecting with many different theaters in the area. We bring them together at Shakespeare Theater Company. That's going to be in February during Black History Month. And we're working with Studio, Imagination Stage, Olney, Arena. So it's great for us to come together and connect with the next generation of actors from local HBCUs. and have that workshop in that way, as well as with Florida Repertory Theatre. So yes, and you can follow us at Shakespeare in DC on Instagram. We're also on the Facebook of Shakespeare Theatre Company and ShakespeareTheatreCompany.org as well.

ROB LEE: And there you have it, folks. I want to again thank Dr. Drew Lichtenberg and Leonate Noble for coming on to the podcast and spending some time and sharing a bit about the Shakespeare Theatre Company. And I'm Rob Lee saying that there's art, culture and community in and around your neck of the woods. You just got to look for it.