Exploring Ethiopian Art and History with Christine Sciacca

Rob Lee: Welcome to The Truth in This Art. I am your host, Rob Lee. Today, I'm excited to engage in a rich conversation with my next guest, whose extensive experience spans art curation and museum education. Currently, my guest is the curator of European art 300 to 1400 CE at the Walters Art Museum. Please welcome Christine Sciacca. Welcome to the podcast. Thanks so much, Rob. Thanks for having me. Thank you for coming on. I like the I like the black lip. I must say that it's like a dark. I like it. It has like a gothic thing going on. I'm like, this is great. I do my best in a non visual media, right? Exactly. So to begin, I want to, I always like to go back to sort of the origin of some of those early moments that ignited sort of the, you know, path that you're on now, this career that you're in now and the art, your curator. And I see, you know, art history and museum education, a lot of stuff in this background. So what is that sort of early art or creativity sort of story that touch tone that led you in a direction towards European art and in the work that you're doing today?
Christine Sciacca: Yeah, I have a sort of longstanding relationship with art history. I was very fortunate to have actually AP art history in my high school. I grew up outside New York and you know, it was one of those things where I took it as an elective. I had a fantastic teacher, Fran Bisseau. She's still around. And she kind of introduced me to, it was a survey course. And I thought, well, this is all really interesting. I can sort of get at past history through objects and, you know, these incredible pieces that are the products of human creation. And, you know, they can actually help us learn about periods, especially when you go way back where we don't actually have much documentation. These are sort of our documents are these incredible objects that were created. So I went to college sort of thinking, you know, I don't really know what I want to study, but I'm going to try, you know, throw in some art history there. And I started to get more and more hooked. I kind of thought I was going to do Italian Renaissance for a while. You know, I speak Italian. Part of my heritage is Italian. But then I had a professor who was teaching medieval art, and he took us into our rare book library. I went to Cornell University, took us into the rare book library and pulled out some medieval manuscripts. Now, I had never experienced manuscripts in my survey in high school. It was just like, let's learn about cathedrals, maybe some stained glass. I had no context for this. So that kind of blew my mind that people would take so much time and attention to create a book out of expensive materials like parchment, gold, these pigments they had to import into Europe. And that really kind of grabbed me and sort of think, okay, books are really important to people, they're still important to us today, but this to lavish this kind of attention on a book like that, there's something going on here. So that kind of got me started on the path to being a first a manuscript curator, and then eventually an objects curator like I am today. And, you know, I just, I, it's one of those things that I feel like it's It's a very easy thing to understand. We all own books in some shape or form. And this is just this is just how important they were to people back then. And they hold a lot of they hold a lot of history and they hold a lot of I think they're very compelling for us still today.

Rob Lee: Wow. And thank you. It's funny. I always like to point out when, you know, a guest answers like two questions in one. So thank you for, thank you for overachieving. Maybe you're running the show. I don't really know.

Christine Sciacca: I have more to say about manuscripts. Keep it going.

Rob Lee: I mean, so, so, so I guess to put a final point on it. So sort of the, you know, the, the sort of manuscripts, how, how has that kind of influenced your perspective on like storytelling specifically in like European art?

Christine Sciacca: Yeah, I think, um, you know, manuscripts is an interesting field. It's a very specialized field and, if you sort of read art history books about manuscripts, sometimes they'll just have the images pulled out, like kind of like they're little paintings. But the fascinating thing about manuscripts is those images are on a page with words, the artist is responding to the text that's right next to it. So that kind of hooked me as well, you know, what if an artist is illustrating a book or a text for the first time? Like what about, you know, Dante's Inferno, and you're just sort of illustrate, how do you visually express what Dante is describing in words? So I got very interested in sort of how do artists respond to the text? How does the text and image interplay on the page? In the medieval period, they're often very intertwined. You know, you get these elaborate initials, these elaborate letters. They have pictures in them, in the letters themselves of the text. So, you know, certainly I think narrative plays into it, but really I was interested in that relationship between text and image and, you know, this incredible relationship that happens in these books. the way I sort of, I'll just answer a third question while I'm at it. So, you know, how did I come to Ethiopian art? So I, you know, decided to pursue a PhD in medieval art history, specifically in manuscripts. I go to Columbia, I'm learning all about manuscripts from all over, and I think I sort of understand all there is to know about manuscripts, right? More or less. So I take this African art survey and my professor puts up these images of Ethiopian manuscripts on the screen like gospel books that hold the writings of the four evangelists and she puts them up on the screen from the same time period as the European books I'm studying and my mind just kind of exploded because this was never discussed in any medieval course I had. At the time, you know, if you took a course in African art you often wouldn't hear about Ethiopian art either. I just got, I lucked out with my professor who was Zoe Strother at Columbia and that kind of took me on the path to thinking about, you know, what was going on in Ethiopia in the same period that I'm looking at in Europe. A lot of the same types of things are being produced in their own in their own visual language, right? So that kind of took me on the path to Ethiopian art and that this text image relationship is a really big deal in Ethiopian art, not just in the manuscripts they produced, but also if you look at Christian icons in Ethiopia, the figures are all labeled with their names or describing who they are, what they're doing, and written in the ancient Ethiopic language Ge'ez. And so that to me is sort of, it's almost like an extension of manuscripts for me, where you have that text and image really playing into the, you know, a single object.

Rob Lee: Wow. I like that. And we're going to put a pin in that. We're going back to that. We're going to go back to that. So I've, and thank you for that. Cause that's, that really is having the gears turn. So Ian, and this is this is written weirdly. I hate when I hate when I wrote down the delicate dance between past and present. But, you know, from your perspective as a curator and the work that you've you've done, like how do you sort of like connect sort of the past to the present in that way? Like sort of this is how this has this history. This has this this sort of lineage attached and bringing it for like an audience that's like contemporary, that's current. And it's like, what is this? How do we go about this and the historical significance around it?

Christine Sciacca: Yeah, and I should first say, I have no context for not caring about the past, because I care a lot about the past. So I had to kind of put myself in people's shoes. You know, there's a few ways to do it. One, I sort of see that there's some themes that are kind of universal, no matter where you're talking about the world, where you're talking about in terms of time period. You know, how do we express our beliefs? How do we adorn ourselves? You know, how do we sort of you know, cope with death and various aspects of daily life, like all those things are pretty universal. So if you can kind of hook on to those themes and how they played out in past and past visual culture, then I think, or I hope to think, that it sort of draws people in and they can find something that they can relate to themselves. Some of my favorite objects at the Walters are these huge brooches that were worn on the shoulders of a woman, actually, during the sort of period of the Vikings, right? This is Visigothic tribe that was traveling through Germany and into Spain. And they are two massive eagles made out of garnet and gold. And you can imagine somebody showing up in that town with these, wearing these on their cloak. I mean, that is what you are telling people about yourself. I'm wealthy, I'm powerful, and I'm here. So that is something that I think we can all relate to. So that's just one example of how you can do that. Another thing that I'm trying to do, and I think we're trying to do with the Walters, is to bring in some very carefully thought out contemporary art pieces that actually respond to the historical art that we have. You probably know we just acquired a wonderful piece of stained glass by Kehinde Wiley. That's now in our medieval galleries. So you can see it next to examples of medieval stained glass and sort of what he was thinking about and what people were thinking about in the past and kind of make it all, you know, very present day. It's still happening. This art form was invented in the Middle Ages and you still have artists, contemporary artists, practicing it today. So that's certainly one way that I've tried to kind of make those connections And in the Ethiopia at the Crossroads show, if I could plug the show for a moment, we've got examples of contemporary art kind of throughout the exhibition. So the exhibition is mostly chronological, but it's kind of scattered through the whole thing. We have a lot of Ethiopian contemporary artists thinking about historical Ethiopian art. So they are kind of calling on the themes, they're using the language, they're using the imagery in their work. And so I put some of those examples side by side with the historical pieces so that you can really see that connection there. I mean, you can talk about it all you want, but I think when you really see it side by side, that kind of brings it home. So I think that's another way that people can realize, okay, there's an artist creating this, you know, in the past five years, But they're thinking about Ethiopian art from 1,000 years ago. So I think that's another way to make people feel connected and understand that these traditions carry on and they're very much alive and well, especially for the Ethiopian community. 100%.

Rob Lee: That's great. We tend to return to things, I think. when I'm trying to justify what this is as a medium or what have you, saying it's press, it's journalism, it's this, it's that. But I was like, this is something you've likely heard before or seen before, maybe in a different way. And it goes back to what could do the sort of oral histories of things with griots and so on. It's just like a storytelling component. And it's centuries there. Yes. You know, one of the things that I really dig is I've been doing a lot of movie related stuff, film festival stuff recently. Hush, hush, hint, hint. But You know, in making references to stuff, because I've been looking at movies from like the 20s and I'm like, oh, I see this in some more recent stuff or what have you. So those connections are there just by observing.

Christine Sciacca: Yes, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I think we're all sort of the product of what we've learned. And, you know, I mean, I'm still thinking of art history I learned about, you know, in high school. Right. It's still with me today and I'm still continuing to learn. And I think that you know, many of the Ethiopian artists in the exhibition, they are raised on this material. They know, you know, I can take, I often say that, you know, anybody on my advisory committee, I could take them into the show and they could have made that show themselves. They could have curated that show because it is so much a part of their upbringing to understand you know, throw an icon in front of them, they'll be able to tell you who those figures are, and maybe even the period it comes from, and all that sort of thing, because it is very part of, much part of the upbringing. You know, I came to it kind of late, right? I came to Ethiopia kind of late, but, you know, I think that makes it all really relevant and shows that connection to the past.

Rob Lee: And in the process of the curation and the research and everything that goes into it, you know, what were some of those sort of unexpected things like just really like you were gobsmacked? I like using that word now, but you were gobsmacked like, oh, wow, didn't have any idea I would come across something like this in this process, whether it be themes, whether it be narratives, but something that really like, you know, blew your hair back a bit.

Christine Sciacca: Yeah, I mean, something that I know because I've been studying the material, for example, Ethiopia is the second oldest Christian nation on the planet, right after Armenia. And this is something I've sort of taken for granted. I know the art that they produced in service of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church. And actually, one of the revelations was not about an object, but was about talking with one of my previous colleagues at the Walters. And she said, well, we're talking about Christian art here. We're talking about an icon together. And she's like, maybe you want to talk about how, you know, Christianity and colonialism in Africa, and I was like, hang on, you know, that's, that's not the case with Ethiopia. A, you know, Ethiopia was never colonized, only nation in Africa never colonized, and B, you know, no, they've been Christian since the fourth century. King Hazana adopts Christianity just shortly after, you know, Constantine says, oh, it's okay to practice in the Roman Empire. So this is, this is super early on and immediately start, you know, you see the cross appearing and coinage that the emperors are producing. And then, of course, later on, you see icons and manuscripts and wall paintings. So that was something that I kind of knew, you know, but wanted to really bring that to the fore that like, you know, I think people when they hear Africa and Christianity, they think one thing, but that's not the story at all with Ethiopia. And so it was more of a revelation like what other people think and what other people's perceptions are of Ethiopia. So that, you know, it's kind of a, maybe not what you're expecting as a revelation, but that was definitely for me for sure. Also just thinking about how early on Ethiopia had relationships with surrounding cultures. You know, the story that used to be told about Ethiopia was that, you know, all these different people came into Ethiopia and they sort of change the course of Ethiopian history. And I think it's, you know, the narrative needs to be flipped at this point, really. And to think about, you know, how is Ethiopia impacting moving outward? And what were these relationships that had? So like, you know, my my big soapbox is always, you know, people traveled in the Middle Ages, right? We think that because they didn't have planes or fast boats or anything like that back then, that people just kind of stayed in the town that they were born. And that was it. And that's not at all the case. So even though, you know, the journeys were hard, you know, you could contract some crazy disease, you know, all these various things, people did travel, you know, they traveled to trade with other cultures, they traveled for religious purposes, you know, they traveled just to explore the world. So as a result of that, you find, you know, Ethiopia had connections with India, going back to the fifth, sixth century CE. So, you know, things that you wouldn't necessarily think would take place. So I think understanding that those very early long distance travel that happened from Ethiopia, that I think was a big revelation for me and trying to understand, you know, how much the story is shaped by a Western narrative of what happened in Ethiopia. In fact, when you put Ethiopia at the center, you get a very different story. So, you know, it's in the horn of Africa, right? It's right located where, you know, Europe and Asia and Africa all come together. So you've got you know, relationships across the Red Sea, Indian Ocean, up the Nile to the Mediterranean. So it's a very sort of expansive network. And it was one of the great ancient empires, actually the Aksumite Empire from the second to the seventh century CE. So, you know, those are all the things that kind of struck me. And I think, so I first went to Ethiopia. I wanted to go for many, many years, but I finally went for the first time in January of 2020. and just to be there in that place and to, you know, you're going to the palace of the Queen of Sheba, right? And you see the bones of Lucy, which was like, you know, the first hominid, right? We're all descended from Lucy, right? I mean, that is, that's mind-blowing. I mean, I think, especially for, you know, an American where our history, you know, our recorded history doesn't go back that far. And so that, I think that's one of the things that I hope people understand, you know, through this exhibition and sort of that deep, really long history. and kind of getting that in front of people is something I'd like to do.

Rob Lee: You took me back to my history class. You mentioned Lucy. I was like, oh, I remember this from high school. That's great. And then having sort of that notion of those pieces of history that I think can be left out of the conversation when talking about a particular group of folks, particular culture. And it's just like we want to talk about it, but not have them in it. It's like, oh, no, no, no, no. We have to have them. And this is actually the the story is a more well-rounded version of it. And, you know, I definitely relate to that. And even doing this, you know, there's so many conversations around. This is what Baltimore is. This is the culture is here. But then it's like talking to people who are DMV centric. And it's like, no, talk to people from Baltimore. Talk to people in the scene in Baltimore. Yeah. It actually answers another question. You're like winning. I don't like that you're winning.

Christine Sciacca: You gave me these questions in advance, Rob. I prepare.

Rob Lee: I love that. A lot of people don't. You'd be surprised. In almost 700 interviews, it's like 45 people prepare. No one else really prepares. So is there an item or an artifact or something within the exhibit that it's just like, now you absolutely have to check this out when you pull up, you know, like, what is that one for you that it's just like, definitely pay really close attention to this one. This like, obviously the whole like sort of exhibition, but this one is the one that is just like the crown.

Christine Sciacca: Yeah, I had a hard time with this one. I can't put two, but I'll try to stick to one. So we have a really remarkable object in the Walters collection. So again, we have one of the largest collections of Ethiopian art outside of Ethiopia. That's kind of where this whole exhibition began. It's called a couple names, processional fan, a liturgical fan. So what it is, is a very, actually a couple strips of parchment, so animal skin, stitched together. So it's kind of like a giant rectangle, but it's folded like an accordion. So it's basically, I don't know if you remember those little fans you sometimes used to get, sort of cheapo fans. It's like, you know, metal and you kind of spread it. No one can see what I'm doing, but you spread it and you get this paper fan that opens up and kind of into kind of a circle. So this is what this object was so at each end of that long strip of parchment you would have boards and they too would sort of you could splay them out and connect them at the bottom and then you would have this circular icon made a parchment. And on this parchment, you've got all these standing figures. Some are identified, some are not. They're all, you know, either drawn from the Hebrew Bible, they're drawn from the New Testament, Christian New Testament. Mary, we've got archangels. And so in the exhibition, we'll have this fan. We can't actually put it into fan form anymore because it's dangerous for the piece, but we can have it spread out and it's huge. And you get this whole kind of procession of figures as you look down the piece. And our intro wall actually has a few of these standing figures blown up really big, kind of introduced in the exhibition. So you'll see it on the front wall, you'll come in. This is a kind of object that not really very many other places produced. So, and there's only about six or seven of them that survive. and all the rest are in Ethiopia. So this is something that I hope will be very eye catching for people and also just as an object. It's super unusual. I think it comes from a monastery called Gundagunde, which is kind of on the border between Ethiopia and present day Eritrea. And that monastery did some really crazy things with parchment, not just like regular books, They did lots of these folding objects. They were really, you know, this is kind of why I got into the Middle Ages was there is some crazy things that people came up with. And this is this is one of them for sure. And it was very unique, I think, to this to this monastery in Ethiopia. So we have a very beautiful, intact example that people can look at. And it is really a showstopper.

Rob Lee: I love it. I love it. You have my interest, Pete. And now even more than when we started. Right. Like I'm learning. Right. So with it, you know, I'm going to ask that you just tell me the second one as well.

Christine Sciacca: I mean, you kind of please. So I am going to stick to the Christian context. That's my background, what I come from in terms of studying the art. But I should also say we've got a myriad. I tried to represent Ethiopia as best as possible in all its facets in this show. So we have objects of Islamic Ethiopian art, Jewish Ethiopian art. We've got objects from the south of Ethiopia, which they did a lot of three dimensional sculpture. So I don't want to downplay any of those things, but just as an icon, and this kind of gets back to my background, we have a painting that's been on long-term loan to our collection that's by a known Ethiopian artist. So he's named, his name was Fere Sayon. It means fruit of Zion. and he was active at the court of the King Zadah Ya'aqob who was reigned in the 15th century. So he worked for that emperor. That emperor decided that every church should have an icon of the Virgin Mary and Christ and so this sent all the artists into a tizzy trying to create all these icons. So Faday Sayan was an icon painter working in the court but also at the time where the Italians are kind of coming in. So he's kind of, they're working side by side, they're taking from each other, they're passing ideas back and forth. And so there's a very large icon by him, like I said, that's been on long-term loan in our galleries. If you've been to the Walters, it was in our Ethiopian art galleries, and now will be in the show. And it is the Virgin and Child, but it's got the two archangels on either side of Mary. They've got their swords drawn, they're kind of her honor guard. and it's got inscriptions all over the place like I mentioned before. This was an icon that I studied when I was in graduate school and then I walk into the Walters and there it is. It's big, it's impressive, beautiful patterning on the drapery. The color palette is exactly what you see in Ethiopian art. I think the very fact that we know who this artist was, you know, we don't have a lot of named artists from the Middle Ages in general, but we know his name and he was active in the court working at this very exciting moment where artists are just churning out icons and trying to come up with, you know, for the first time, this kind of format to depict these different themes and stories. So that's another one that I feel like people shouldn't miss. And I put it next to an Italian painting. which I think hasn't been done in a very long time. I'm just going to show where those connections could be and what kind of themes they were passing back and forth. And we've got a beautiful set of niches design that our designer Katie Naber came up with. The niche for the Fideszion is based on architecture from Lalibela. That's where the famous rock cut churches are in Ethiopia. And then on the right, a kind of rounded arch where you see instead of Italian Renaissance architecture. So I'm excited for people to see that.

Rob Lee: I am as well. And I'm excited to see it, I guess.

Christine Sciacca: I'm conjuring it up for you right here.

Rob Lee: But it is one of those things. And I like that you you're kind of describing sort of like how how things are arranged and that you're able to see it next to like other things to sort of those reference points. I love that because you're able to go in and it's sort of like the in a sense, like a retrospective, like you're going to see this maybe in a different way. You may be familiar with this style or this images and so on, but catch it in a sort of different way with this different context. That's that's great. So what what are your hopes? And I had like two real questions left. What are your hopes for, you know, the community connecting to this one? Because it's coming soon. Dropping soon. Yeah. Off the presses soon. So, you know, as it were. So what are your hopes for like the exhibition and, you know, around sort of like the community involvement and just sort of what people will take out of it? Is it, you know, more interest in this sort of like this this work? Is it just everyone coming all the time? Well, obviously. But what are you what are you hoping?

Christine Sciacca: Yeah, I mean, what was really important to me was, you know, I've been studying this material for almost 25 years now, but I'm not Ethiopian. And so it was really important for me to really forge those relationships with the community and to make sure that I was telling the story as they would want it told. So they've been in, you know, their curators, their historians, their professors, to kind of help me sort of figure out the different ways that we can talk about Ethiopia in relationship to these different cultures outside. And then also our community advisory committee. So these are all individuals from the DMV area, we have Ethiopian Orthodox priests, we have artists, we have teachers, we have nurses, who all of whom agree to sort of, you know, give their thoughts about different aspects of the exhibition. So, you know, I worked at the Getty Museum before I came to the Walters, and I also work with the Ethiopian community there. You know, it's just. you know, if you find sort of the real stakeholders in the community, they kind of get the word out. So that's kind of what I'm hoping for here. I'm hoping that people know that we have this collection. I'm telling all the people all the time that I meet who are Ethiopian, hey, we've got this collection of art, you know, right around the corner at the Walters, you know, and they had no idea what I'm talking about. So, you know, just to sort of get people to be aware that they can actually come to the Walters anytime and see Ethiopian art. not just when the show is up and sort of get their interest going and to bring some of those people in has been a real rewarding experience for me. Like I said, you know, I stand in front of these paintings and these objects and they have all the things to say, you know, about them. They know these objects that they don't, you know, even though they haven't studied these things in detail, they know exactly what they're looking at. And so that's been really rewarding for me and I hope that in getting the word out for the exhibition, that people come, that they continue to come after the show comes down, because we always have Ethiopian art on view. What's also been super helpful is to have, I have a guest curator on the contemporary component of the show. That's Tsede Makonnen, who's a DC-based artist born and raised in Washington. but born to Ethiopian immigrant parents. And she is, you know, she really calls back, so she's an artist, she's a curator, she calls back to Ethiopian historical art in her work. And we're really thrilled to have a piece of hers. It's a piece that's her, she calls them her light towers. So they are, it's a piece called Sana'it and Nahom, the Peacemaker and the Comforter. It actually was purchased by the National Museum of African Art, the Smithsonian. back in 2020, height of the pandemic, but they never were able to put it on view. So we actually have borrowed it for a year to be in our Ethiopian galleries because we, you know, install a lot of things to go into the show. So her piece is literally lighting up that space. These are towers lit from within. She sort of pierces the towers with the shapes of Ethiopian processional crosses used in the Ethiopian church. And then they're lit from within. So they kind of make these patterns of, you know, crosses and light throughout our galleries. So working with her and getting her feedback, she's working with us to help us formulate some programming during the run of Ethiopia at the Crossroads. You know, she she's been instrumental getting us in touch with Ethiopian churches, so we can go and record some church music and have that in the galleries, you know, this sort of thing. has been really crucial for making this come to fruition. So my hope is that people will realize we always have Ethiopian art on view and also obviously come to see the show. This is a great moment for Ethiopian art and also then to come back with their families and their friends later on. And I hope it has broader resonance to beyond the Ethiopian community. But as you know, Rob, this is the largest Ethiopian community outside of outside of Ethiopia here in in in the DMV area. So this is something that I'm hoping will will really, you know, serve that community and also that they'll that they'll really kind of take it in and take the time to come and visit.

Rob Lee: I'm hoping so as well. That's that's great. That's a great answer. And well, you know, really robust answer. I like that.

Christine Sciacca: You mean I talk too much? Is that what you mean?

Rob Lee: You're making my job easier, actually. So this is sort of the last real question that I have, and I think it's important to kind of be still always engaged. I want to get your philosophy around it. you know, this semester, I'm actually teaching, you know, podcasting high school kids, which is a whole new experience. And yes, I mean, hearing what my practice is and reengaging and being, I guess, a novice or what have you, despite doing it for 15 years. You know, that's that's important. Keeps me keeps me up to up to snuff. So for you, how do you like, you know, what are your personal philosophies or daily practices to sustain sustain one, your enthusiasm and curation and in art history, but also the sort of like rigor of like being like up to date, being up to snuff with us? Oh, this is how I how I could do this. This is a way of looking at this. How do you kind of just, you know, stay engaged in that way?

Christine Sciacca: Yeah, that's interesting. You're talking about teaching. So last spring of 2022, I was invited by Johns Hopkins University to teach a class in the art history department. Some of their professors were on leave and they said, what do you want to teach? I said, well, Ethiopia is the only thing on my brain right now, so it has to be about Ethiopia, which sounded great to them. I actually wound up teaching the exhibition So it was kind of, you know, I did half the class teaching the content of the exhibition, and then the second part, you know, how do you make an exhibition? What are all the things that go into it? Because I think people don't, you know, your typical museum visitor doesn't know that this took six years for me to prepare, you know, Ethiopia at the Crossroads, for example. So, you know, that was actually my way of also forcing myself to read a lot of the recent things that have come out about Ethiopian art, you know, assign it to the students, and I'll have to read it too, right? You know, because spent a lot of my time just answering emails. Trying to squeeze in the tons of publications that come out about this topic. People are getting more and more interested in Ethiopian art and culture. That's really hard to keep up with. One thing I did was force myself to teach the material and to also hear what the students' feedback was. I'm very several generations beyond my students now. So, you know, what do you think of when you think of Ethiopia? It's different than what I think of and what I grew up, you know, experiencing like in the 80s. They're seeing different things today. So the other thing that I did during the pandemic, you know, not great times, but one great advantage of the pandemic is a lot of conferences and talks and papers went online. And so, you know, I could attend a conference in, you know, Vienna and, you know, Addis Ababa and New York, you know, without ever leaving my desk. So that actually helped me to sort of see what people are working on right now, what's the current work that's happening on Ethiopia and various other cultures connected to it. So that was sort of, you know, it wasn't shorthand, I spent many hours, you know, online doing this, but it was it was a way to sort of Keep current with what's what's going on right now. What are people thinking about? What are the questions they're asking? you know, giving some talks myself and getting people's feedback. So that is, I would say, sort of, you know, two of the major things that I did. And also, you know, I relied a lot on people in my advisory committees to, you know, tell me about what they're thinking about, what they're working on. You know, I challenged them to think about, well, what is the relationship between Armenian art and Ethiopian art, you know, maybe in a way that they hadn't thought of before. So, And also in the end, I just have to kind of come back to the objects, right? The objects are the things that are always my inspiration. So keep looking closely. What else do you notice? That kind of sparks new things. It makes you kind of run down lines of research and what have you. And there is a catalog publication with the Ethiopia at the Crossroads show. So you get sort of a smattering of we know all the things that people are thinking about from their various fields in relation to Ethiopian art. We've got some cutting edge conservation research we've done here at the Walters. So we have one of the oldest conservation departments in any museum in the US. And we were able to look very closely at our Ethiopian art, do some analysis on it, discover things about the materials and techniques of the artists that nobody's really done before. There's a couple of research groups have done it, but not really. And so that too is in the catalog, you know, really bringing those kind of up-to-date ways of looking at objects to Ethiopian art. So, you know, having all those things going on, I mean, it kind of keeps you going, right? You asked about, like, what is that, how do you keep that spark going? Well, you know, when you make some new discoveries about the kind of wood they used in Ethiopian panel painting, which is totally not the same as what people have always said they painted on, like, you know, that's super exciting. Yeah, that's that's really uncovering, you know, knowledge that was lost and we're kind of bringing it back. So, you know, those those are a few of the things that have kept me through all the emails and all the back and forth that goes on in my normal, my normal day to day.

Rob Lee: I hear that. And and thank you, because, you know, when it's those moments of like, all right, I'm curious about something, you know, it's just like it's like a what is it a earworm or have you I can't get it out. It's just like, yeah. And yeah, I think it's just trying to satisfy a curiosity. I think sort of just looking at what are the questions, then what are the new questions? How do you go deeper and find those sort of connections, even if it's the ones that people I don't know, bro. It's like, well, I'm going to express how it is and maybe a connection or, you know, sort of what that overlap looks like. And that's that's something that's there. But always kind of going back in, you know, I try to play with how I might do this sometimes just to really open something back up. Like, can I just do this without researching? Can I do this without preparing in the same way and really see what comes out of it? Absolutely, yeah. So I got a couple rapid fire questions. That was kind of the wrap up of the real questions. You got through unscathed.

Christine Sciacca: So here we go.

Rob Lee: So these are these are kind of softballs, but I don't know. I don't know what they are. So I have I have three of them for you. The first one. Which this might be our what actually which figure for maybe art history? Would you want to have a conversation with maybe over coffee or tea or whatever your beverage of choice is? Beverages are part of this.

Christine Sciacca: So. I did say before, we don't have a lot of like named medieval artists, so that makes it hard. But I think I would love to sit down with a monk or a nun who produced manuscripts and to hear about like what goes through their head as they're sort of copying line after line if they're a scribe or like painting an image of you know somebody who's a holy figure to them like why you know what makes you what inspires you to do this sort of thing so um you know i wrote for my dissertation i wrote about a german manuscript german medieval manuscript but um it was commissioned by one individual priest and we have his name so like you know could I sit down with somebody like that and be like okay what did this book mean for you what did the creation of this book mean for you um that's kind of that's kind of where I would go with that.

Rob Lee: Thank you. So curation, and by the way, I will say I did notice when you were mentioning like, yeah, you know, back in 2020, I was like, that's almost four years ago. So the sort of time that goes into the process. And I was like, oh, no, I've listened to people. I'm a data analyst by day. So as soon as the numbers mentioned, I'm like, how long ago? But it just says the work that goes into it. So without, you know, sounding gauche or what have you, but in your opinion, What is curation?

Christine Sciacca: Ah, so I guess when you're a museum curator, I feel like I have a very active role in, I mean, we like to throw around this. I love that people know what the word curator means now, but they also throw it around in a way that I'm not so fond of. So, you know, curation comes from curare, so it's the Latin word. I have to bring out the Latin, right, because I'm a medievalist. it means to care for, right? So, like, I'm actually caring for this collection. Yes, I am selecting, you know, objects I think should be added to the collection. When I create an exhibition, I make a selection of objects to go into the show. But I'm caring for those objects, and one way to care for them is, you know, what our conservators do sometimes, and also, like, the way I handle objects. But also, you know, how do we convey them to people? So, I also have a background in museum education, so I I love talking in front of objects I love standing there and kind of getting people to look closely asking them questions to hearing their thoughts I always learn something new whenever I give a tour from the group that I'm giving a tour to because they all come with different sets of you know backgrounds see different things that I would so. Being a curator, I think, is caring for the collection in that, you know, you physically care for the objects, but you also sort of care for teaching them to people. So you're sort of making it so that people understand why they are important to preserve in museums and why we should continue to learn about them, even if they might be, you know, 1000 years old or more.

Rob Lee: Thank you. That's that's great. Great answer. Great. Great answer. This is the last one. I'm always I'm always very interested. Usually you get a food question, but I don't have the food question in here.

Christine Sciacca: I don't have a. Come on. It's Ethiopia. You got to have a food question.

Rob Lee: You have a food question, but this one is a little different. I. I'm always curious as to how folks do sort of these restorative practices. Like, you know, some folks meditate, some folks are like, I need to have my afternoon tea or don't talk to me before I have my coffee or whatever the thing it might be. What is sort of that, you know, when the, you know, those emails get a bit much or that just the process of doing the day to day is just really, you know, a lot. What are those restorative practices for you? Is there like one that really pops up for you? Is it going to the park? Is it, you know, having that tea or that fitness or whatever it might be?

Christine Sciacca: Yeah, I'm not great at doing that, Rob, I'll just tell you right now. But probably, I would say it's kind of a practice that I have to do anyway, sort of enforced practice, which is, you know, going home spending some time, I have two kids. with my family and sort of like stepping out of that moment of like, okay, you know, it's not all about Ethiopian art. There's other stuff going on. You know, my son's learning to read. Okay, well, that's, you know, just kind of taking a step back and realizing like, you know, where everybody else is in their world and they're, you know, in that moment. And so I think that's probably the most restorative thing for me.

Rob Lee: I hear you. I heard it literally was a conversation I was having before this. It's like, hey man, it's not all bad, man. You know, life is life, man. But thank you. Thank you so much for for taking the time to come on here and share a bit about the show and share a bit about your background. This has been great. And two, I want to invite and encourage you to share any final thoughts, website, social media, all of that good stuff, kind of those those final second like pitches, like come on through, you know.

Christine Sciacca: share it or is yours we have an incredible show i want to emphasize it's only three months long so it is opening on december 3rd at the walters with a big opening day lots of we're going to have a spice workshop run by some local folks that i know i just brought back the spices from ethiopia for them we just handing them off in the parking lot this morning. So they are fresh from Ethiopia. I was just there in October again. They're going to come and do a spice workshop, talk about berbere spice. We're going to have music. We're going to have a coffee ceremony. We've got lots of programming throughout the run of the show, and those can be found on our website. We've got flyers that I'm going to start putting in Ethiopian businesses around. So beautiful brochure that they made to explain all that programming. Like I said, it's only till March 3rd. I know some people think, oh yeah, yeah, I'll see that show. But like, really, it's three months. And that's because we have lots of light-sensitive materials in the show. So we've got, and thank you, Sydney, for putting this little tag here. So you can follow the Walters at the Walters Art Museum. And we, wait a minute, I lost the chat. Sydney, I lost the chat. We've got, you know, the exhibition, like I said, three months light sensitive material so don't don't sleep on this, please come and see us. You know when it's dark and it's winter and you need some light. One of the things that my community advisory wanted to us to convey was. was the concept of light and that everything should be, you know, that's the sort of, so that's the design concept. You'll see that. We've used the colors of the Ethiopian flag, which are bright red, gold, and green. So that's also there. You know, bring a little sunshine to your winter days. And the exhibition will also be traveling to two other venues. So, and that's the other reason why it's only three months here. So after here, it will go to the Peabody Essex Museum in Salem, Massachusetts, just north of Boston, excuse me, it will go to the Toledo Museum of Art in Toledo, Ohio after that. So if you have friends, family there, please tell them about it. Please go to see it there if you can't see it at Baltimore, but please see it at Baltimore. It'll be, you know, extra special here. And like I said, just from December 3rd till March 3rd. So pretty easy dates to remember. So people can look for any updates, look at posts. You can follow us at the Walters Art Museum on Instagram and Facebook and at the Walters underscore museum on X slash Twitter. So we will be putting out all kinds of social media posts. We have an amazing promo video that's being completed right now. We've got wonderful posts by Karina Ingram, who's been doing a great job getting the word out about our Sade Maconan piece and various other things. So keep your eye tuned to that. And also on our website as well, you can see sort of a basic overview of the exhibition.

Rob Lee: There you have it, folks. I want to again thank Christine Sciacca from the Walters Art Museum for coming on and sharing a bit of her story and Ethiopia at the crossroads. And for Christine, I am Rob Lee saying that there's art, culture and community in and around Baltimore. You've just got to look for it.