Exploring the Art of Elizabeth Talford Scott with Curator George Ciscle

Rob Lee: You're welcome to The Truth in This Art, where we navigate the crossroads of arts, culture, and community. I am your host, Rob Lee. And today, I am honored to have an educator, curator, micro curator in residence emeritus, who is also the guest curator, along with the Baltimore Museum of Art's Associate Curator of Contemporary Art, Cecilia Wickman, of the exhibition, Eyewinkers, Tumbleturds and Candlebugs, the art of Elizabeth Talford Scott. He plays a key role in expanding recognition of Scott's intricate textile art, emphasizing its cultural significance and fostering community engagement. Please welcome the great George Ciscle. Welcome to the podcast.
George Ciscle: Thank you, Rob. Thanks for the invitation.

Rob Lee: Thank you for coming on. Thank you for making the time. Thank you for being on video with me right now. So, you know, we, you know, I want to, you know, cover a couple of things in this this conversation. You know, I want to talk about the the art of Elizabeth Talford Scott, but also I want to talk about a bit about your career, because I can't have you on here when I'm, you know, getting some background from you, obviously. So, you know, before we delve into sort of the more current work, I want to go into sort of this introductory question that I use. What was an early experience that really profoundly, like, impacted you, influenced you into the career path in the arts, in curation, in that realm?

George Ciscle: Well, I wish I could start very early on in my life, but unfortunately, it did not happen until I was in college, when I really had my first exposure. And the exposure wasn't originally in visual arts. It was in performing arts, in theater, and in dance. And I not just studied that, but was very involved was my minor in college, and through those two disciplines, I was exposed to a world of interdisciplinary arts, meaning that it wasn't just the script or the choreography, but it was also all these other disciplines within the music and the scenery and the sets and the costumes, all that went into that together to make that world, which first got me really interested in art. And through that, two things happened. One was, of course, I was exposed from that, learning about artists. You know, who were these artists that did these sets? Who were these artists that designed the costumes and things like that? But the most important thing I would say that influenced me in that early experience was not necessarily the specific discipline of dance or theater, but the collaborative approach of those disciplines. Because we know that it's very interesting when I think, when I reflect back on my own career and in the beginnings and where I am now, that my interest in collaboration did not begin by studying visual arts or art history. It began by studying these disciplines which were collaborative or approach to begin with. And that's sort of what I started to adopt in my own practice.

Rob Lee: Thank you. You know, as a person that I view this project, this this this podcast and this sort of approach being collaborative, obviously, you know, with, you know, I'm not I'm not good when there's no one else on the mic, you know, with me talking. And some it sits somewhere in that sort of collaborative space, in that journalistic space and in our space, but definitely really huge and a collaboration point.

George Ciscle: Well, I think also it's evident, certainly in the podcast that I've listened to some viewers and knowing what your goals are, like you, you talk about the creative process constantly. It's not just the product is not obviously the product is of interest and important and relevant without and have as meaning to it. Definitely. But I find that that Your interest is as much in exploring where is that process? Like you're saying, the first question you asked me, like, you know, how did I get where I am? Like, you want to know what my creative process was.

Rob Lee: Thank you. Yeah. So, you know, some collaboration, sort of, you know, the performance component and just reaching that at Michael, right?

George Ciscle: Well, it didn't start at Mike, it ended at Mike. I mean, it was a long process. I'd say it happened, that opportunity in terms of collaboration, really sort of happened when I did enter, when I left the performing arts world into the visual arts, when I had a gallery, and then when I found it's the contemporary. And then my most recent, of course, part of my career was was at MICA, definitely, you know.

Rob Lee: So so speaking on MICA and, you know, sort of and not trying to fast track it, obviously, but, you know, I see educator in there. And, you know, as far as your extensive background, like I was like, how can I get this down to just eight questions? You know, And in looking at it, um, you know, I've recently gotten into doing, um, educating. I'm doing, teaching a podcast class and that is an enriching experience. And I'm like, oh, this is wild. And you have an extensive career as an educator. So speaking on your, you know, and reflecting on your role as an educator and in shaping maybe how you approach your life and, you know, your approach to curatorial work and in the arts, can you speak a bit on that, like how sort of that career as an educator has shaped and influenced your sort of art practice and the work around, you know, what you do?

George Ciscle: Yeah, I do my practice that sort of began in education. When I graduated from college and graduate school, my graduate work was in human development and learning. It was, that was what actually the degree was called in graduate school. And because my interest was in looking at what's the potential of creativity in an individual, no matter what they do, right? So that's where I sort of began, was in education, and then sort of the bulk end of that certainly is my work at MICA in education and working with the curatorial students and the program there. But in between, certainly between my gallery and the contemporary, that that was really, really much curatorial work. But the difference I would say is the curatorial work was always audience centered. It wasn't just about it always certainly started with the artist and the artwork. That's always with the touchstone and of everything that I was interested in as a curator, right? But I was as much interested in how to connect what artists were doing, contemporary artists, to a larger audience. And that's really where the education, I think, kicked in when I sort of was wearing two hats. I started as an educator, and then all of a sudden, being a curator, and the projects we did in my gallery of the contemporary we're always working with artists, but I was always looking at who the audience was that, that the museums, the museum world, especially back in the late 80s, early 90s, certainly we're not addressing, unlike fortunately today, that museums are the art world is certainly paying attention and involving and including the larger world, not just the art world.

Rob Lee: Thank you. And I think it would be it would be almost like one of those. I like to call it a two dollar segue, you know, or continuation with sort of that those those thoughts around curation. How how would you define the role of a curator, you know, considering your experience and, you know, what ways has it evolved, you know, and what ways has it remained consistent, you know, with what it was earlier in your career to now?

George Ciscle: Yeah, that's a really important thing for me always to talk about, especially to my students, that evolution. On my own, I would say two things. I think the evolution for me had to do with, for many, many years, of course, I was working with various audiences and various communities throughout Baltimore with artists and with organizations to really connect you know, what artists were doing to people's, you know, everyday life. But I guess what happened was, after I retired, about six years ago, talking about the evolution, I realized that there was a whole audience that, and both audience and artists, that I had completely And so my all since my retirement, my studies. And my volunteer work has been working with adults with disabilities. And that I really make sure when I talk to especially young people, young curators or people in the museum field, that yes, I'm very proud of the work I've done in the past. new with the contemporary with Mike and all that. But there's always something to learn. And that was for me, learning that. And so that's been a real evolution for me. It's not over, certainly not over whatsoever. But it is, I would say now that what I'm working on, no matter what project it is, or if I'm working with other young educators or curators, I always say let's look at this through a disability justice lens. What would this look and feel like? This same project, right? So I always sort of put that question out to people instead of, you know, we're so used to for many, many years, that those kinds of considerations or accommodations come at the end. We develop a program, we, you know, have a project that's related to that, instead of looking from the beginning, What would this feel like with audiences that are both visually impaired, hearing impaired, have intellectual disability? The list is a very large list, right? 25% of our population has some form of visible or invisible disability. So that's the evolution is for me that I always want to share. The constant, I would say, though, you asked me, what is the constant from the beginning? is this, and that is the kind of questions, the kind of questions that I've always asked, and that is, who cares? When my students would propose their projects or their thesis or what they're doing, a curatorial work and all, I would listen to them all. And my question would always be at the end, who cares? Like if you can't answer that other than, oh, the community or Baltimore or artists, like you sort of, you've automatically siloed what you're doing, you know, and that your vision is very narrow in that regard. And I say that I always would say to my students that my test audience was my Aunt Doris. We all have Aunt Doris, right? My Aunt Doris knew nothing about art, cared nothing about art. Always, either my gallery or the Contemporary or Micah, I would always take her to see the projects. And her assessment provided guidelines for me all the time. The kind of questions that you and I might think are very naive or innocent, were in the long run, extremely complex. to answer and address. And so that's that's the constant is always me saying, who cares?

Rob Lee: Yeah, that's that's the same vein. And I always like those moments when business, when when art come together, that sounds like when someone's like, who is your target audience? You know, who would listen to this podcast? Who? And having to go through that, that sort of process regularly of, you know, and like I like how you said, You've siloed that. It's now a very small, almost niche. And maybe some things should be that way, but also is that what you're intending to do?

George Ciscle: So really thinking through who's it for or who… And you make that very clear in all the projects, all the podcasts that you talk about and what you do. I mean, because it's very clear that your emphasis is always not just Baltimore, But it's, what is the community impact on what someone is doing? And it's exactly what I'm saying. You're looking at, you're interviewing people to sort of get to the right things. Who are the people that are doing things in Baltimore? that have an impact on a community that are not just outsiders or not just parachuting into communities that really have some kind of, you know, connection to what people are doing. And it's clearly the range of the kind of people that you've been interviewing the last couple years, that's, you can see your own curation of who you're interviewing is very much like that. So. Thank you. I congratulate you on that.

Rob Lee: I appreciate that. Thank you so much. And now I want to switch gears a little bit and get even deeper to sort of curation. Let's talk about the exhibition, Eye Winkers, Tumble Turds, and Candle Bugs, The Art of Elizabeth Talford Scott. Can you give us a bit of an overview of the exhibition and its significance to the Baltimore and the sort of regional art scene?

George Ciscle: Sure. Well, I would say it's a two-part project. And so really, the two-part project is the first part certainly is the overview and presentation of her work at the BMA that I was the guest curator for. And also with that, I just want to emphasize that The significance of it is not just in terms of what's there at the BMA, but also just the subtitle, The Art of Elizabeth Talford Scott. Because when I originally did this show 25 years ago with students at MICA, that was the same title. But 25 years ago, we had, we, had not really had these kind of conversations in terms of the art world, or what does this mean? What is this work like hers, which back then were always siloed, also, craft, women's work, quilting, you know, all kinds of decorative art, you know, the list goes on and on, or any kind of creative person's practice that people wind up putting in there. But it was never called the art. her work, right? Not only was never called art, it wasn't in any museums back then. Now, now it's in over a dozen museums, including four, four pieces of hers in the permanent collection of the BMA now. So that was a big part of the significance of doing that show originally, with those students and reaching out to multiple communities back then. But the other second part, which is that this year there is a new Exhibition Development Seminar, which we call EDS, Exhibition Development. So it's a year-long course where we have 21 graduate and undergraduate students from Morgan, Hopkins, Coppin, and Micah. And they're working on developing eight companion satellite exhibitions throughout the city. So that's the second part. Now that part opens February 4th throughout the city. So the two shows will intersect, right? The BMA show opened two weeks ago. And then that part, which is called, I always have to remember the new title of it, It is called no stone, no stone. I had to write it down. No stone left unturned. The Elizabeth Alfred Scott initiative. And this is what the students. are working under the leadership of Dion Moses, who is a former EDS graduate herself, and a curatorial practice grad student from a few years ago, that is working since September 1 on this project at these eight sites. So those four schools, universities will be sites. Also, they will also be working at the The Peale, the Reginald Lewis Museum, the Maryland Center for History and Culture, and the Walters. So those four, so those four museums, including the BMA, the reason people wonder why those museums, because those museums and the BMA have a 25 year history with EDS. So EDS started in 1998 with Elizabeth Talford Scott. And since then, they've done multiple projects at other museums, including one of the ones I've learned, and also the Joyce Scott show in 2000 at the BMA, which is now going to be revisited by Cecilia Wickman at the BMA this coming March. And that will overlap all this. So it's really going to be a celebration of a legacy of the mother and daughter throughout Baltimore. But the eight sites that I mentioned that EDS is working with, each of those will have one works of Elizabeth Talford Scott. And they will develop a whole project and exhibition and programming around it. So each of those, there are teams of two and three. at each of those eight sites from the class that are working with the staffs of those eight sites for their gallery. So that's the two parts of this that will all come together by February the 4th.

Rob Lee: That is robust. Dion's been on the podcast, so big shout out to Dion. And also, you know, the community component there, like you have eight different sites that cross multiple sections. It's sort of providing that access and that sort of revisiting because, you know, 25 years, you know, it's like revisiting this and kind of blowing that out and involving folks who may not have like sort of that top tier experience in curation, but being able to come in with an interest and it's not siloed to one particular area. It's in various places, from the community and from the college standpoint, the academic standpoint, to the different museums. So that's great. That's wonderful.

George Ciscle: Well, I would say that the difference in, you've described what's happened in the 25 years in that revisiting, is that the original exhibition did have a component with the students where they worked at three senior centers and three after school centers of children with master quilters to do projects. So that was that community part of it. But this really, as you say, is taking the work and putting it out there and in different contexts. So in many instances, these students are working with these sites And they're not just working in terms of a theme that relates to Elizabeth's work. But they're also, in many instances, working with collections. So they're working with African collections. They're working with African-American collections, American collections, Chinese collections. And so they're also getting that experience to look at how this work perhaps has different relationships beyond just her life, herself.

Rob Lee: Yeah, it's making those connections. And I think having you know, that exposure to what on the surface may not seem to be like, oh, and then seeing it's like, oh, no, there is a connection. This this makes sense. You know, anecdotally, I'll say I remember doing an interview not long ago with a musician jazz musician. And, you know, I was like, you guys are just like standard comedians, right? He's like, tell me more about what you mean by that. And I started talking about the parallels. And he's like, I see it now. I see what you're saying. And I think being able to be exposed to having conversations with comedians and and musicians, jazz musicians, I can, you know, with some authority and confidence, be able to make that comparison. And I think the same thing applies here when making and going through that sort of curation and seeing like, You know, this is art that has, you know, roots and symbols from Africa and the Deep South, but it may connect with this sort of work and that sort of work and being able to see that through exposure.

George Ciscle: Exactly, because, again, these students have to not just study her work, But like you've earmarked already, like what are these African and European and African American and American traditions that, you know, came before her and since then. So they're also having to study and learn not just about her life, growing up, you know, in a former plantation where her grandparents lived and slaved people in South Carolina, and her parents as sharecroppers, certainly, they have to learn that history, and that history of America, not just her history, her origin story, right, but also for many of her students, many of them are not from the US, or if they are, They don't necessarily know what that history is, what is the Great Migration, all these kinds of things. The students are exposed and having to learn all those things that you say, how to then place this work that has, as you say, multiple relationships. One hundred percent.

Rob Lee: So I want to delve a little bit into some of the specific like works, textiles, I see prayer pillows, healing shawls, you know, family diaries, like how, you know, how is this like multidimensional approach to to the to the work, to the curation around it, like transforming sort of the the artists is to Elizabeth Talford Scott's like narratives, like, you know, sort of what is the language here? How does like having sort of you may be maybe this piece in the, you know, the exhibition at BMA reflect this part of the narrative versus like having another piece?

George Ciscle: Well, you you've you described it correctly, multidimensional approach in terms of her, because, you know, that usually the approach we think of and what we, you know, call quilt quilts or quilting or fiber work, you know, have a function, right? They you know, provide comfort or their display, you know. their blankets, or quilts to make us warm, or things to hang on the wall, right? That sort of kind of function, right? And Elizabeth's work does, there are many works, both at the BMA showing at this and at the eight sites. Well, indeed, at first glance, people will have that connection to a function of the work. But just as often, her work has, when you look at it, there is no identifiable function at all, right? And really the purposes are twofold. One is healing. So many of the works were made for private use by Elizabeth, by Joyce, by friends, by family, right? They weren't for display. They were either in her home or given to people who really needed something to heal or as a healing agent, and so these were works that were also termed as prayers, so they were prayers that you would have. And you would place these on, if you had a stomachache, you put it on your stomach. If you had arthritis, you would put it on your shoulder to feel better. And they were filled with rocks, especially, because rocks have this healing purpose in African and African-American culture. And in many cultures we know, rocks serve lots of symbolic signifiers. And so there would be always rocks in them, but there would also be lots of other beads and sequins and different fabrics that were there. And they were very small, that you would just put them in your lap, like a pillow almost. So they really had that purpose of healing. And then the other kinds of work that she would do, which you're referring to, are family diaries. So if you go into the BMA, especially one of the first things you will see is a piece called Grandfather's Cabin. And what it is, it is that it is the story of her grandfather, who was enslaved in Chester, South Carolina. It is the story of him. and his family, and the cabin, and the stars above it, and the snake underneath the cabin, and the family throughout the plantation are all in there. They're all sort of illustrated within this piece. When you look at it, there's no way you could sleep under it. There's no way It's very large. It's what we call sort of the origin story of her life there. And so that's what we would say is a family diary. And so there are many works like that. Some actually are the story of her relationship with her daughter Joyce. So they're all different kinds of ways of these acting as storytelling.

Rob Lee: That's, that's wonderful. Um, you know, I, I remember having a, um, having an interview with, uh, S.P. Frazier a while back and, you know, we were talking about, I was like, so are you an illustrator? How do you describe it? It's like, I'm an illustrator. I'm just illustrating this away. This is how I do it. And it's, it's always like interesting what one can do with sort of a fiber or sort of a craft oriented practice. And it's like, oh, you're drawing with that. Or I had one. I was in an interview. I did a blanket on this last name. His name's Michael. And he he said that he's a quoter, but he draws it with pencils. And he has this style that I was like, oh, right. This is and it's kind of shifting what one is expecting. And it's a visual component. I don't know, it's just, it gets me. It's a different vibe.

George Ciscle: Well, you're right. I mean, and I know Espy's work, and a good description of it. I mean, she is ultimate, she is a storyteller. Her work, you look at it, and she's telling stories, you know. Elizabeth is a storyteller. This is storytelling. And it's interesting when my students would look at my previous work as a curator, like, how did you Why did you choose these artists, you know, like all these artists in the world? And why did you why in the long run, were you attracted to this artist? It's like, in the long run, I look at it, almost all of them, all of them, I can look back on that they're storytellers, like this is their, this, this is their skill as a communicator, you know, telling a story. And, and the stories, of course, you know, whether they're whether they're myths or they're fables or they're narratives or whatever, that is really their skill set. And I think, for me, that's to try to, as a curator, to learn that from an artist, to learn that, for me, to see that. That's what I said about being an advocate, an advocate for an artist. Advocate, to me, means helping that story you're telling to really make it really feel warm and welcoming to people that come in, that they just want to sit there and spend time with it.

Rob Lee: I got two more real questions left. And one is sort of around the challenges. Like, you know, we have like an idea like, you know, when I look at planning out, you know, what a season of this podcast is going to look like, You know, I'm like, well, I want to do this for this month after that month. And at the end of the year, we see what we get. Right. Or we're checking in. And I would imagine, you know, when the initial idea of let's revisit this, let's let's do this, this is the idea, you know, that then then one vision and then it's like an actuality may be pretty close to, you know, what's there like now versus what the initial vision was. So could you talk about a bit about maybe some of the challenges in planning and executing the exhibition?

George Ciscle: Well, I guess I was very fortunate and that it's one thing to start with a vision, but without the team. It's for me, it's not going to happen. And so for me, right, it's not just that team of 21 students in EDS, right? It's not just, you know, all the multiple departments at the BMA in the education, graphic design, installation design, security services. It's not just all those departments, which obviously are all instrumental in making something happen. But to me, it's like having two partners, like Dion Moses, or like Cecilia Wickman, because Cecilia is my organ, what they call organizing curator at the BMA working on me with this project. So she is the one obviously, that keeps those doors open for all these things that need to be that we want and that vision to get accomplished, right? Because again, I'm a guest curator. Yeah, I'm not a staff there. So, you know, I'm, I'm I'm a guest in their house, you know, and I feel very grateful to be invited in and to be allowed to try many of these new methods and approaches, curatorially and educationally, and especially in terms of accessibility. through this project and through the EDS partnership with MICA and the BMA. So that's the only way it could have happened. Even my original show 25 years ago, It started out as me as a guest curator. And after like six months, I had this group of 17 students that developed a whole companion exhibition working in the community along with that. So it became much more than what I started out with and much better for it. And the same with this, this V-Residence project. Yep. Everyone loves the work without question. The work stands on its own without question. But the kinds of things we're talking about and engaging audiences and making people really want to spend time with the work and multiple access points into the work, that cannot happen by one person at all.

Rob Lee: It's important. It's good. And this kind of ties into that sort of final question. So giving those sort of distinct lines around curation and around education, for some folks who want to approach or even have a degree of interest as a curator, checking into curation as a field, What is that piece of advice, that hallmark piece of advice you would share for someone who's interested in their own offense, they're not sure, they might be a podcaster. What's that piece of advice you would share for someone who's interested in curating?

George Ciscle: Rob, I always welcome that question. Previously, I never welcomed that question because I you know, I was too far in in the midst of it all myself, you know, but I think now that that I've had time to reflect and, and talk to people like yourself, and have dialogue about what what this work even means, right. So I say that it's a lot of practice, a lot of practice, you know. And the practice meaning, it's a combination of things, I would say, is that first, you need to decide that whether you're an artist or not. That's where I started out long, long time ago, thinking and dreaming I was an artist. Once I realized I wasn't, I realized I was a creative individual that wanted to work with art and artists, then I could do that. So I'd say many people expect in art school or taking art degrees or studying art, I want to be an artist, right? But you first have to answer that question to yourself. Is this what I want? Is this my only choice, meaning this is what drives me? This is my vision? This is the story I want to tell as an artist, right? I don't have a story to tell as an artist. I realize that. I didn't have a story. I knew how to better help an artist tell their story as a curator. So I would say, first, you have to address that, that if curation is what you want to do, then I would say this. The practice part has to do with this. See as many exhibitions as you want at every level, every level of exhibitions, whether it's a juried show, whether it's a thesis show, whether it's a community center, it doesn't matter. See as many exhibitions as you want and meet as many artists as you can and make studio visits with his artist and see and see if you feel if you feel comfortable and you have something is there an exchange or is it just a one-sided conversation because it needs to be a one a two-sided it needs to be a conversation not just you talking to them or them talking to you. So I would say that's the first thing. Find out, are you good at and comfortable and effective of talking to artists? Not just as an exhibition, but in their studios and being fortunate to have that invitation. And the other thing I would say is, the next step is, if you are, try to get some paid internships. museums, art centers, doesn't matter, anywhere and everywhere, right? Because then you're going to start to meet professionals in the field who hopefully will be your mentors or eventually your mentors who can sort of help you with defining what your goals are, right? And say, if you get to that point, the last step I would say is then apply for as many open calls, we call them open calls, I know artists have them, but also curator. There are curatorial open calls that you can apply for a proposal to do something there. And so I would say submit proposals for open calls so you again can have that direct experience. But that's sort of the order in my sequential thing. And you just practice, practice, practice in each of those. And, you know, at the end point, so to speak, it will lead you somewhere. It may not lead you where you think you start in the beginning, but I think it's going to, it will lead you to someplace that has a relationship to your life, to who you are, you know.

Rob Lee: Thank you. Wow. That is, you know, I hear more and more a version of that and I'm hearing in it. sort of reputations, repetitions, like, you know, having those instances, being around, being in the scene, and there are, you know, I do this, you know, and I guess, you know, touched on earlier, you know, being an educator now, and feels really weird to say that, but being an educator now and then having sort of those reps and been a podcaster for 15 years. So, you know, I'm revisiting some of those things I thought, you know, were you know, just, you know, done and they were reflexes. Now it's just like really thinking through it because I'm helping shepherd people in it. But it's again, I can speak confidently because of those repetitions and because I'm where podcasters would be at and I'm doing things that a podcaster would do. And, you know, there have been instances where the public radio folks have called and reached out and things of that nature. So, yeah, I see exactly what you're describing. Alrighty. Um, so that's kind of it when it comes to the real podcast and thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Um, and you know, I, I, I got two last things I want to do, you know, sort of the rapid fire portion and the, the shameless plug last, last, you know, sort of thought, final thoughts. So I'm going to go with the shameless, I mean with the rapid fire portion to start off with. And as I tell everyone, don't overthink these. They're goofy questions. They're real life questions though. All right. Um, does your morning generally start off with coffee or tea?

George Ciscle: Neither. Oh, OK. I know. It's very interesting. My students were my students always have. Oh, they always had coffee. A few of them would have tea. Right. And they'd always I'd come in in the morning because I'm an early I am an early bird. I am a very early bird. And people who get my emails can attest to that, but I'm a very early bird. And so I always started wanting to have class at 8, 8.30 in the morning, right? So I wanted to be the first out there. And my students would always have their coffee or their tea. And they always say to me, you never, where is your coffee or your tea? And I would basically, I would sort of laugh and I say, what, do you think I need it? Like, it's like, I'm choosing it while you're asking me, like, do you think that I need caffeine? And then they would go, no, George, I see what you're saying. You're fine without it.

Rob Lee: It's like, you're all set. You're all set without the caffeine.

George Ciscle: Yeah. Yeah. And that's not to say later in the day, later in the day, I don't need some kind of pick-me-up, but it's usually a sweet pill.

Rob Lee: I hear you. I hear you. I drink a little too much coffee, so I'm going to curb that a bit. You know, I've gotten into green tea. I have a buddy who's a big green tea advocate, so I've been drinking more of that. And then I start looking at sort of my total caffeine intake for the day. And I'm like, all right, I need to slow that down a little bit. It's a lot. So this is the second one, this is the second one. So, you know, you're a Baltimorean, so I got to ask, what is, and it might be hard, what is that cherished Baltimore landmark for you? Like, when you think of, you know, you think of Baltimore, what is the landmark for you?

George Ciscle: Well, the landmark for me, but it doesn't exist anymore, was the McCormick building, McCormick spice building downtown and become for multiple reasons but. Not just because of what it represented in terms of being on the harbor and and obey and. the O.B. seasoning and the smells that one remembers that now you have to go out to Hunt Valley to smell. But also it's the place that my son was very much, who grew up in Baltimore here also, that he, having crabs, so all this is done, so having crabs in Baltimore around the picnic table with the brown paper and the mallets and all that is what growing up in Baltimore was for me, certainly, and it became for him And he is actually a chef out in San Francisco. And he's adopted many of these things in terms of Old Bay, especially seasoning in what he cooks out there in San Francisco. And so it sort of all ties back to my growing up here, that building on the harbor, visiting it, eating there. I mean, all those kinds of things, eating the crabs, it's just quintessential Baltimore. All of the eating, the smells, the visuals, the blue and the yellow. I mean, all that, to me, is the landmark of Baltimore.

Rob Lee: Now, it's funny, this is one of those rare instances where I think you don't have this question. I don't know how, but you kind of are touching on it. So I think I have the answer, but I'm still going to ask it. What is the quintessential Baltimore dish for you?

George Ciscle: Well, it would be definitely steamed crabs. Yeah, I mean people come visit from out of town, you know, I've been to Baltimore, you know, or my son visits. My husband won't touch them. He's not from Baltimore, but you know, he's a crab cake. Crab cake? Steamed crabs? No. So there's this line down in our family here about the quintessential. So for my husband, it definitely would. He would tell you crab cake. He would tell you a crab cake. I say steamed crabs. That's the distinction.

Rob Lee: That's similar with me and my partner. I'm like, yeah, she's like, yeah, you know, we're going to have crabs like you got to like crack my crabs. I was like, I don't crack my own crabs, so I won't be cracking yours. Love you. I was like, I'm a crab cake guy. I wrote the day. And and that's and that's pretty much it for the pod. So I want to do two things here. One, I want to thank you so much for for taking the time to join me on this podcast and and share and share your your great chat. And and two, I want to invite and encourage you in the final moments to, you know, kind of tell folks again, you know, about the exhibit exhibit and any final thoughts that you had before we wrap up.

George Ciscle: I just want to say for people, put on your calendars February the 4th, because at that point, February 4th, both parts of the exhibition are open at the eight sites and at the BMA, although the BMA is open now. And also, that and that both go to the end of April, beginning of May. And then also to be on the lookout, obviously, for Joyce's show that ties in in mid-March, which goes to the end of July. But also that I spent a lot of time down here at the BMA in the galleries. And I'm happy to have conversations with people in the gallery My students, two of the students who worked on the project from ADS, Alim, Allison, and Maddie, they have made this fabulous sort of learning table and timeline that people can sit and relax and spend time with. And so we also try to encourage people to spend time in that room. And there's lots of things you can participate in when you're in the gallery. I just want to remind people, when you go to the gallery, there's lots of accessibility features that aren't just for people who need that accommodation, but for everyone to take advantage of there. And so we welcome you.

Rob Lee: Thank you. And folks can find out more information on ArtBMA.org, right? That's right. And there you have it. For the great George Ciscle, I am Rob Lee saying that there's art, culture and community in and around your neck of the woods. You've just got to look for it.