M'Balou Camara: Good afternoon everyone. Thank you so much for joining today for an exciting human-centered conversation on some topics that are really meaningful to us. We're so eager to not only shed light on what it looks like to be an aspiring podcaster and a seasoned podcaster, but also we want to hear your curiosities and your perspectives. So I hope that the next hour feels very light and liberating and loving because that's really all we're here for, right? Exactly.
Exactly. So I'm your host in Balukumara. I'm a lover of flowers and pleasant scents and collective laughter, so please do laugh when things are funny.
And I'm honored to be here with you all today. My dream is to launch a podcast by the end of this year. It'll be called Heart Reflex and it is going to highlight the voices of artists and arts advocates of the African diaspora as they speak about how the art improves and connects their lives. I want to start off first by thanking the Maryland Citizens for the Arts team for creating this space, this platform for us to connect and engage freely in a conversation.
I'm sure I don't speak for myself when I say that we're really grateful for this opportunity, especially at a time when the arts are becoming more challenging to uplift. But again, I'm so grateful to be from state Maryland where we are not censored, so you will see that today. We are really grateful for the Maryland Citizens for the Arts team. We don't take this for granted, so thank you so much for having us here. I also want to thank UMBC. UMBC is my current employer and it's also
Rob Lee: Rob's side UMBC with my undergraduate degree 10 years ago and this is professional development day for me. So any job that allows me to do what I love and still pay me is not a job to me.
It's actually soil that allows me to grow. The last person I want to thank or the collective that I would like to thank is 627 Strategies, which is a public speaking coaching firm that was founded by a close friend named Rhonda Henderson who could not be here today. Rhonda is a DC native, an educator, and a creative entrepreneur who I'm so grateful and blessed to know and to have learned from. So moment of acknowledgement.
We are tuning a live today from Peegee County Community College in Largo, Maryland, which is situated on the unceded land of the Piscataway people. And while we as Black Americans, our ancestry points to the African continent, we do acknowledge that the land that we are gathered in this moment was previously home and cherished by Native Americans. We are mindful of this and we move about this space being mindful of that and we'll continue.
To be mindful of that past, present, and future. And now for our guest today, Robert Lee Watkins. Yes, I said that in his full name. Junior, right? Yeah, junior.
I will start and end with your full name. Rob is a Baltimore City, Charmed City Native, as well as the executive producer and host of The Truth in This Art. Since 2019, Rob has spotlighted over 800 conversations with individuals in the arts and creative space in Baltimore and beyond. And in 2022, his work was recognized as the best podcast in Baltimore by Baltimore Magazine editors. I realize I'm saying Baltimore a lot.
Rob Lee: Yeah, you got to say it exactly like that.
M'Balou Camara: I'll keep doing my best. Please do. So Rob is also a passionate educator. He has instructed at the Baltimore School for the Arts at the East Baltimore Historic Library and currently teaches at UMBC, University of Maryland, Baltimore County, in the community leadership program, which you will hear more about today. Rob is a veteran podcaster with nearly 20 years of experience in podcast production. Rob is a mentor, a collaborator, an instructor. An Aquarius.
Rob Lee: An Aquarius talking to a Scorpio. Oh, God.
M'Balou Camara: And Rob is a friend to me. Today he is in the guest seat, the hot seat. Yes. We're flipping the script. I hope you're ready.
Rob Lee: I am not. Very rare for me.
M'Balou Camara: Please help me in welcoming Rob. All right. Rob Lee. Yes. How do we get here? I know that you took the mark train today and you typically don't take the mark train, right?
Rob Lee: No. I spend way too much money to take the Amtrak. I do the Ocella move, right? Because I'm bougie that way. But now with like no funding, right? I'm eating asparagus and popcorn. So I'm like taking the mark like a civilized individual.
M'Balou Camara: Okay. Okay. Well, welcome to the mark world. To offer everyone here an understanding of what actually brought us here today, like here in this moment, let us reflect on the people, the experiences, and the moments that made it possible for us. So with that, I'd love you to talk about how the relationships and shared experiences and movements really influenced the way that we think about support. I'll let you start us off.
Rob Lee: Yes. So when I think of support, right, just starting off there. Oh, yeah, fine. That's good. Year one of the class that I taught at UMBC, I'm a year two, the Electric Boogaloo Year. And I think in doing these interviews and these conversations, sort of the goal is not really about how can I get myself over? How can I show how good or whatever I am? It's more so like helping facilitate someone sharing their story. That's always been what's baked into this podcast that I do. And I want to say probably last year, maybe the year before, I was really curious about how can I take some of the skills that I have and maybe help other people share their stories and maybe be behind the mic. And instead of just being a guest of mine, you know, I've done so many interviews. I can't interview everyone.
Several people are in this room that have been. But being able to have the opportunity as a bully right there, have the opportunity to have sort of this next generation of podcasts to share in their own unique stories and their own interests. I felt like that was one of my ways of showing support and helping to develop a community of new media makers and sort of diverse media makers. So, you know, support, it's best been in the conversation much more clearly in the last few years, especially even the way that I'm approaching the podcast this season. I've been asking those questions of folks. A lot of folks I'm interviewing again.
So, second interviews or third interviews and asking questions of what does support look like outside of maybe monetary means, outside of sort of opportunities, but having a broader sense of what support can look like.
M'Balou Camara: So, it's important. It really is. And you spoke of one critical piece of what connected us and what brought us here. There are other experiences as well. Yes.
Rob Lee: Yeah.
M'Balou Camara: Let's co-storytell here. Please. Yeah. After community leadership class, where was the other experience that brought us together?
Rob Lee: So, there were a few instances that come to mind. Community-oriented events like at Hopkins. I believe there was a...
M'Balou Camara: It was the what's called the Inheritance Baltimore Conference at John Hopkins University in November.
Rob Lee: You put me on to that. Well, I had no idea. And I was like, oh, I can learn something. This is great. And just kind of being tapped in. Because a lot of times you have a sense of what's right there in front of you and you can miss things. So, you sharing that with me was really, really cool, really paramount. And we kind of started building that, I think, a bit of, all right, what you got going on? What's interesting?
And kind of sharing that. Another thing that comes together, one of our fellow students in this class, Yacenia, who eventually was on the podcast, she has a community event in Creative Alliance in Highlandtown called T. and Keatsley. You volunteered there.
I showed up and it was just a really cool cultural event. I'm like, oh, okay. Everyone's together right now.
We're getting together. And it was just really cool to see my students. When I say my students, my kids, I'm not that old, but my students and see them kind of do their work and share their story. And you'd be a part of them helping with the volunteering. That was really cool.
Then from there, you sat in on a number of podcasts with me as well. Eaton House. Eaton House in DC, probably what, three or four that you sat in on? I think it was three.
M'Balou Camara: Yeah. Yeah. Two, actually. Two. Two. One.
Rob Lee: It was two. Okay. Just make sure. The numbers are going down.
M'Balou Camara: There's also been mentoring calls. I reached out to Rob for some mentorship support and we do chat. It isn't a structured mentorship thing that we have going on, but anytime I reach out, Rob makes himself available. We've supported each other with grant writing and understanding the grant writing landscape, the funding landscape.
Rob Lee: All I know how about. But definitely even sharing some of the insights. There's a lot of stuff in this time that in almost 20 years that I've learned that it's like, let's share it there. Learn from my mistakes as always.
M'Balou Camara: I want to say also one of the more recent things that brought us together was the public art panel. Oh yeah. As part of UMBC's Center for Art Design and Visual Culture Center. Yes. Yes. You attended that?
Rob Lee: I did. It was really great to kind of broaden my understanding of like public art and its impact and kind of sit there and like revisit. It was in the same classroom that our class was in. So I was like, what, taking a day? Yeah. You know? Had that thought? Really? Yeah. I felt that way when I went in there.
M'Balou Camara: That's awesome. I didn't know that. I didn't know that. We didn't miss anything, did we? Nothing. We got it. Well, what brought us here? What brought us here?
Rob Lee: I think it was the sharing of information yet again. You know, thinking like I've done a panel or session here a couple years back and I was like, this is a really cool opportunity.
This is a great resource. It's a great opportunity to communicate with folks and meet folks. And I was just like, let me share this with you. Maybe one or so get in and we'll see how it goes and we're doing it together.
M'Balou Camara: It works out. Thank you for that. Thank you for sharing that. We're both getting paid, by the way, splitting it evenly in the spirit of true collaboration. So we did not rehearse that co-storytelling. It hasn't even been a year yet since we first met and there are many ways that we have been connected and have been collaborating with one another and have been supporting one another too. It feels very non-hierarchical despite me having been taught podcasting essentials from Rob. So I just want to say I really do appreciate everything that brings us together, even if you stand by the Accela and I'm pro-marque.
Rob Lee: So Rob, I'd love to hear you. You kind of touched on this, but I'd love to hear you share more about how some of those experiences that brought us together, as well as others like them, shape your understanding of what words like access and resources and reciprocity really mean for you in your life.
Rob Lee: Yeah, I think I could start off with reciprocity. That's a word it's hard for me to say. I think I don't really like the sort of what feels like a one-sided thing. Like, hey, I do a thing. I do an interview. I have this connection.
I have this person. I don't believe in the gatekeeper stuff, but you shouldn't be one-way traffic. It should be like how can we establish a relationship, a friendship, a kinship, what have you. And sharing of sort of those resources, maybe those connections, maybe sort of like tools like I have my recording stuff, what have you here with us today or sharing of knowledge.
It's like I've learned a lot of different stuff, most of it self-taught. And I think the way that that grows and opens up who can go into a specific field, let's say podcasting for sake of argument, I think having someone that is they're willing to share and willing to connect, I'm always willing to, as you touched on, being able to have the conversation, being able to chat. And also as we discussed, how can we be of service to each other? That's always important. So in anything that I do, especially in podcasting, I lead with that.
Like, all right, this is a cool conversation. How can we continue it? How can I support whatever you have going on? Because obviously I'm interested in the person's work and interested in, you know, sort of their story.
And it's like, how can we support each other? And this is actually an image at Eaton, DC. I think my sticker is somewhere over there. I'm going to have to look at it.
That's where it's rolled up. I'm here. We're not sponsored, so that's why those bottles are turned away from the camera. But I'm here with Natasha Magino, who is the founder and editor-in-chief of Vibe Magazine. I mean, I'm not Vibe, not Vibe Magazine, the Vibe Room Magazine.
And this is one of those instances where I wanted to circle back. I supported the magazine, supported the next issue that was coming out. And sort of the exchange was, we were just talking of ways that we can work together, whether I'm going to be writing. This was a podcast discussing some upcoming events and sort of the trajectory of the magazine and sort of the focus of the magazine, supporting artists of color in DC and the DMV more broadly, and just figuring out how we can support each other's goals in a like-minded fashion.
M'Balou Camara: It's so nice to have this picture to look back at and also to hear you speak so naturally and eloquently about this experience and then knowing that there's this recording that we can go back to to hear about it really shows me that the truth in this art, the name of Rob's podcast truly is a contemporary living archive for Baltimore City and beyond. So I'd love to hear you say a bit about how your podcast really does live with and breathe with the city of Baltimore and what drew you to this work of being an archivist, the podcaster, in the first place?
Rob Lee: That's a word I'm still getting comfortable with. I be talking about microphones sometimes, but I think capturing these stories, I think it's important. I think a lot of times when we see it now with some of our history right in front of us being kind of erased, omitted, changed, burned, I guess, and being able to capture the stories unfiltered directly from the people living these experiences, that was the driver that continues to be the driver. I've said it before in the pod that this came out of just very peddily. I'm a petty person sometimes, but it came out of just someone talking really ill about Baltimore and that person might be in office again.
I wanted to disprove that and I wanted to have people come on and speak for themselves. That's what that drive is. When I do this sort of beyond portion of it, going to other cities and going to other communities, I feel the driver behind it.
Come on, share your stories. I have some questions. It's a framework to help facilitate someone sharing their story. I've been saying a lot recently of I like to just let the guest cook.
It's like, I might insert, like, hey, let's move in this direction a little bit, but mostly it's improv to have that true conversation. In thinking about it, I've had several outlets reach out to me, hey, put it behind a paywall and do this and do that. I think it keeps people away from hearing those stories and it just feels like awkward to, hey, here's a real story someone's sharing and they're spending the time and they're doing this. Let me put it behind a paywall though. It feels weird to me and it's rather have it out there, no commercials, no ads and just people sharing their story authentically.
M'Balou Camara: A lot of people might not know this, but you are also a data analyst. I am. Yes. And you are super into films and filmmaking. Is that correct? I am.
This is true. Okay. So I feel like this speaks to how podcasting comes very naturally to you.
Right? I'd love to hear you share a bit about how you view podcasting as both an art and a research endeavor, how you kind of blend creativity and curiosity in your storytelling process.
Rob Lee: Okay. Yeah. First off, I asked too many questions. That's a thing. I've been trying to get my questions down. Like they say a podcast would be like 38 minutes. I'm like doing hour long sessions now. I have too many questions. But I'm curious. I'm curious about the thinking that goes into someone's work. Not purely what was the brushstroke here? What was the, you know, what was more so? What was the thinking? And what are those experiences that go into the thinking that ultimately ends up on that canvas ultimately ends up in that movie or have you? That's a big piece of it. I think the data analyst side of it and the sort of podcasting side of things, I've been doing both for almost the same amount of time.
And it was at one point, back during my early my early period of working at Johns Hopkins, I applied for a job that required a podcasting background and a data analyst background. I was like, yo, I got this. It was for you.
It was literally for me. Right. See, here's the thing. I had a hair at the time.
Right. And I was living a wildlife. I had like earrings. I was telling about the second ago. I had earrings, I had hair at the time.
You said a mullet. Yeah, I was an audience. I was all here. And I remember applying for the job, getting the interview. And I remember I shaved everything off, got rid of the earrings.
Just let me be conservative Rob. I showed up for the interview, got past the first round, ultimately got to the second one did get the job. And I was just like, now you guys stay true to yourself. And you have this sort of balance of, you know, this side, you know, this side, find ways that they work together.
And it's kind of to mind. It's like, I have a creative approach and an artistic approach with how I do my podcast and how I go about it from the editing process to some of the artworks of thinking that goes into it. I don't at any point say, Hey, I'm an artist and I'm on the same level as a visual artist or someone that's like has really strong and high level like artistic merit. But also I have the sort of storytelling background and that is reinforced with the data background. So when I'm able to have some of those conversations on put the data together in application, it's just like, not good at the rain portion of it, but the narrative portion, the storytelling portion of it, I can show the data that reinforces the actual, you know, anecdotal like storytelling component. And that just comes from being able to live in both worlds at the same time. I love blade if any young C number day Walker. Yeah, super blade.
M'Balou Camara: Is that one of your nicknames?
Rob Lee: Uh, no, Wave Daddy is one of them.
Speaker 3: There's a video out there with me with a jersey that says that.
M'Balou Camara: Okay, so there's a lot more that goes into the podcast experience than like the final recording that we hear, right? Yes. Relationships. Yes. Could you walk us through what happens, what unfolds before and after and all the spaces in between that really, that really do help capture what this podcasting experience is about?
Rob Lee: Yeah. I think this picture right here is a good example. So this artist is a Russian artist, a figurative painter named Zinnia Gray based in DC. And she was a referral for one of my friends also based in DC. And she wanted to talk for like an hour and a half months before we did the interview before she agreed to it.
Because I think English is her third language. And she was like, I've done art talks and they just leave me up there and just ask me about brushstrokes. And we were just talking, just having a conversation like just regular people.
And I was able to get so much out of the conversation that helped me write better questions, more informed questions for the actual interview later. And that's something that's somewhat rare, but because it wasn't a lot out there about her. So, you know, she's laughing a lot in the conversation. And because I realized that, oh, you were a comedian and an actress before you even got into painting. And that's what she talked about most in our like hour and a half conversation. She really didn't talk about painting. She talked about that.
She talked about being in this sort of silence retreat. It sounds like these are interesting things that are not necessarily about current work or upcoming work that perhaps play a role in that work. And I got that from actually changing up that process a little bit and not just going by what's online or what's in a bio and trying to extract and pull questions from it, but actually having a pre interview. And obviously it's a time component. It's an hour and a half. And then we're doing an interview for an hour.
Then we're maybe, you know, grabbing a coffee or something afterwards. She started building out that time. And the way that I think sometimes like podcasting and certain like media is now it's about speed. And that is a slower process. It's taking its time. And that's one of the things that I've tried to spend more time doing, taking that time. So, you were there for a few of these, but making it a point, this is again an eaten, to go down and meet people in person to do things IRL versus everything is purely digital.
And I'm a ghost otherwise. I think switching that process up a bit and trying to be more oriented around person to person conversations. I think it leads for a richer conversation. And I even see it in sort of the output and how I feel after the fact. And, you know, I think even after this, it's like, hey, there's an invite to, I think to a show.
And I showed up for it. It's rare to go out and shop at things. I like living in that specter life. But, you know, because of that person to person connection, there's some roots that are built there. And that's what I've been trying to do more of. Yes. Showing up. Yes.
M'Balou Camara: Showing up. Yes. Use the term IRL so that we're accessible to everyone. That means in real life.
Rob Lee: You think it being in real life. Yes.
M'Balou Camara: So you've touched on this a bit, but over the past year that I've known you less than a year actually, you've opened my eyes up and my mind to the textured experience of being a local pod podcaster. And so I understand that we live in a society where sometimes marketing or connecting, networking with people in this role, it is not always easy. So I'd love to hear you share about some of the unique challenges that you've been navigating as a podcaster rooted in Baltimore and what are some ways that you've overcome that.
Rob Lee: Yeah. I think like the podcast and the media scene in Baltimore isn't the biggest. It's one that's developing. It's one that is limited space, I guess. And there's always the call from each of the radio stations over the time that I've been doing this have made the call to me, hey, you want to come and bring your content, your full catalog and the rights to everything that you do over and be one of us, you know, assimilate and all of that. And I like being independent. And I think the sort of component of that independence is I've had conversations with funders because there's always a consideration who've told me like, oh, you shouldn't interview these people. We want you to interview these people instead. And I was just like, nah, rather not.
Or there may have been panel discussions where, oh, can you leave all of the Trump stuff about your story and maybe say this is why you got started. So changing fundamentally the whole ethos of why I do what I do feels weird. And one of the ways I get around it, because it can be frustrating, it can be super annoying, despite my efforts or what have you, is to maybe change how I'm viewing things and change how I'm what I'm seeking.
So the teaching opportunities, those were things that certain people who want to manage me told me not to do. And it's like, that's not going to 10 extra business, bro. These are literally conversations I've had.
And that they really say, bro. Yes. Just a five eight white dude. I don't know what to tell you, bro. And I was just like using the data analyst background, I was like, you don't even know what my stats are. How can you tell what's successful for me from a number standpoint, but even from a personal standpoint, you're not even asking the question or what I do represents a thing, I suppose. So I started pursuing things that I thought were more aligned with what I value. I value continued education, so learning, sharing, and connecting with people. So that's teaching, that's just right there for me.
But some of the other things, it's trying to bring those resources back. Within earlier this year, I was in the Ornair Fest in Brooklyn, New York, and was able to go up there, had to figure out money to go to Brooklyn for a three-day convention with no funder, nothing. And New York's not a cheat, per se. And some of these podcast events take us to $700 to just show up and be in the room with a podcaster and... U.S. dollars? U.S. dollars, yeah. And then there's the, hey, you know, Deezus or Miro is going to have their own special podcast, which is an additional $150 if you want to attend that.
So it's a cash grab in some of these instances. And I kind of knew it, but I knew I needed to be up there at least to have that experience to be around other podcasters in different markets. And the sort of IRL, in real life, component of it, I was able to see Tanya Mosley, who had interviewed at the end of last season, and she agreed to give me some mentoring advice. We had a coffee and a nice chat, but it was because we were in the same space. She was coming from California for Ornair Fest, and I was taking the, not the mark, the Amtrak up.
I couldn't afford to sell it. It was real, real tight then. But taking that up and being able to have this conversation that the value of the conversation would not have worked via Zoom or phone. It's like we were sitting there person to person just shooting the breeze and but really connecting things in a way. And she almost convinced me to move to LA.
That's how deep the conversation got. Yeah. LA? I'm not moving to LA. Okay. Especially not now. Right. But yeah, not moving to LA. We love LA. We do. It's super hot there. Yeah. Happy safe.
M'Balou Camara: So I'm sure maybe even your interaction with Tanya Mosley inspired you in some ways. Mentors are huge sources of inspiration. I'd love to hear you share about one or two defining moments of inspiration for you in your life.
Maybe they happened conversing with one of your guests on your podcast. So could you tell us what it felt like, what it sounded like, what it smelled like? Like describe it for us. I'm a lover of pleasant sense. And how did that moment of inspiration meet you where you were in your life? And where did it take you? Where did it lead you? Trying to really get a sense of what inspiration looks like. How do we measure that? You know? Yeah.
Rob Lee: It's funny. I've been working on a question around like inspiration and aspiration. But two things that come to mind. I'll start with the smell for the first one. It was Bergamot.
I was in my studio with a candle lit as I wanted to do. And I actually reached out, still have some research, but using the data, data analyst, from like downloads and like, where am I getting downloads that are outside of Baltimore? That felt a lot that was coming out of Texas for some reason. I didn't know why. I was like, I haven't interviewed anybody in Texas. And I was like, I want to see what other places are to see if I can actually do this or am I just purely going to be here. And I ended up reaching out to a bunch of different people who I thought fit what I do that were in Austin, Texas specifically. And there's a big podcast market down there now. But I reached out to a few people and connected through a few people here and Baker or arts and made some contacts.
I was able to meet a few people. One of those people that came to mind was Raisin McIntosh who works in public art and she's an Olympic hurdler. That is what her background is. And we got on the phone, which again, an IRL email sort of world, get on the phone is different. Got on the phone and she was like, we have discretionary funding so we can pay for you to come down here if you want to do these interviews. So I came down to Austin, Texas. It was an average of 106 degrees each day I was down there. Sweating out my ethnicity.
I was just like, ah, the black. So I go down there and I interview her and seven other people in different areas of art. It was one person who was a writer who's since moved up here now.
It's Jay Febello. There was a video game designer who did all of the marketing for one of these big taco chains down there and we barely had a conversation. He made me as a character in his video game.
M'Balou Camara: I thought you were going to say he made you a taco.
Rob Lee: Well we had tacos. Okay, that's. Tacos are important. But he made me feel a character in his video game. Oh my God. Which was like a bit raw. This is amazing. And several other people and I think in it, the sort of conversation and the sort of desire to leave from here, go to a place I've never been and interview people. I usually don't know the folks I'm interviewing anyway very well. But you know, I'm interested and curious, but something very different. It gave me sort of this, this, this poll that I was like, I can do this in other places. These sort of conversations matter.
And the recent Macintosh person I referenced earlier, without really putting out that pitch of, hey, I need this for this reason. She's like, no, you're a light worker. We go find you. Like, come on down. It was that was pretty, pretty easy.
And it felt good that someone saw what I was doing and thought of value in it. And they weren't like a neighbor, if you will. And another instance that comes to mind is, is Lafonte and Oliver, who used to be hitter the board for WIPR, who now runs New York, WNYC. So the biggest job in the public radio industry. And I got connected to him through a PR firm. I didn't even know who do was.
I was just like unaware. It's like, he's a really big, important guy in this industry. You got him for an interview. You don't know who he is.
What are you doing? And had a conversation with him. He has some Morgan ties. I'm a Morgan alum. Somehow I missed him, you know, when I was there. And we had a really good conversation.
One of the few that was very, very, very nervous about because of the sort of urinase in that spot. Had a conversation. And after we kind of got to the closing part and we wrapped it, he said, yeah, interesting broadcasting. And that was just that acknowledgement of like someone that's in this level of the industry is giving you sort of your, but it would have all folks in the prop is giving you a prop is the prop. Instead of props, I've heard people say your proppers.
M'Balou Camara: Proper. Yeah, I like that. I'm going to use that. Don't bring that back, please. Oh, okay. There were a couple of pictures. Yes. We forgot to show because I was so absorbed in your storytelling. I talk a lot.
Rob Lee: Yeah, this is from big improv. Let's go back. That's from big, big. Well, I still had the East Saint Laurent glasses on. No, thank God. Yeah, I was balding at that point. This was from the creative mornings talk. Sean champion did this and went mountain and I believe. Awesome.
Okay. I was on a billboard at one point. Station noise.
Casual. That was the first year of new next film festival and I interviewed two of the filmmakers who did this movie about the carpet industry in Georgia. It's called carpet cowboys.
And they saw me for the interview and then they see the billboard when they're there for this. Like, do you run Baltimore? I'm like, no, I do not.
It's like you're on a billboard. So what are you doing? Do you run Baltimore?
I don't. And I think I didn't do it on purpose, but I had a cowboy hat on that day for some reason. I was literally dressed like the character from their film. So they thought I was in cowboy core.
M'Balou Camara: Interesting. Interesting. You should wear the cowboy hat more often.
Rob Lee: I will take that into account. I will probably do that.
M'Balou Camara: So I'm going to repeat this one more time for the people in the back that may have not heard the first time. More than 800 recorded conversations. I think earlier today I heard you say 890 since 2019.
Yes. I'm trying to wrap my head around that like mathematically. So if we were to quantify that in terms of talking hours over the past six years, that means that you've been in conversation longer than you've been sleeping. So do you like talking and listening to people more than you like sleeping and dreaming? Yes.
Rob Lee: What does that say I'm living my dreams? Okay. I mean it sounds pleasant, didn't I? Okay.
M'Balou Camara: On a serious note, I am curious to know what you hope your listeners walk away with when they tune into the truth in this art. How do you see your podcast as contributing to social change or just community impact?
Rob Lee: I just hope it opens up the aperture of it that folks kind of extend what the idea of like art is, who's an artist, whose work matters, whose story matters. That's sort of the main thing and it's been there and I hope to, with sort of the overall contribution I suppose to just add to the conversation to be a part of it to be maybe a chapter in a really, really long book for some of these folks who have come on the pod.
M'Balou Camara: An 80 conversation long book.
Rob Lee: Yeah, a very, very long one. 800. Coming up on 9.
M'Balou Camara: So looking ahead, what would meaningful support look like for you? We've talked a bit about support through the ways that you've engaged with others, the ways that I've engaged with you, what brought us here. So if you could imagine an ideal support kit, what would be included in that?
Rob Lee: Lots of coffee. To be engaged with the content for the most part, I always say this in the pod, money is too easy. We all need funding, that's sort of a common thing, right? But sort of being engaged with the content, listening, having some thoughts, having some sharing it with folks, that's sort of the main thing, that's how it gets it out there. I think as Kayata Couture said on a most recent interview that went out, it's just like having your name out there in these different realms is important. That's what support looks like. So very low lift, but I think that's what matters to me.
M'Balou Camara: I feel like that's what's happening. That's what you're receiving. So now I'd love to open it up to the audience to share any questions or reflections that you might have. I think we have some time for, oh yeah, time for maybe three or four. So feel free to jump in if you have something on your mind. Yes?
Speaker 4: So mine is Tiffany Carmosche and I'll start a podcast on the Grand Field in a minute and I didn't know if you had any advice for somebody who just got started into podcasting and the New World for me. I've done everything live and I was focused on the stages, but the whole how do you attract your audience? How do you get ready for that first?
Rob Lee: Yeah, I think a few things that I kind of touch on is what does 10 episodes look like? What does 15 look like? Having sort of a number, a lot of times we have really good ideas. I've done some myself and it's like, yeah, I can really do this every week.
I couldn't keep up with it. So having something that I think is getting started you can commit to and then sort of the audience gets built up through that consistency and sort of that relevance and reaching out to the right people, I think that helps. But I think being able to be consistent and have an opinion and sort of work that you want to make continually.
I was having this conversation earlier today about some of the students that I've had before to even have recorded or even come up with a title. How do I monetize this? Bro, you don't even have a podcast yet. So building from there I think is where I will probably start. Here's the first five episodes.
Here's the first 10 episodes, whatever that cadence might be to get an idea of what that rhythm looks like for you and then just fine tune and build from there. And folks will come, folks will listen.
Speaker 4: I was thinking about recording 52 units for the week and then curing. So kind of like build and then sponsor. Do you think you can do it smaller sets or 10 episodes?
Rob Lee: I would probably look at smaller sets. But 52 is a good number. Weekly. I like volume.
M'Balou Camara: It's a lot of conversation. Rob has had 332 conversations in one year. That's like at least in one year. Wow. Yeah, first year. I might say too many. Any other questions?
Speaker 3: I'm just looking at your drafts so you can book it.
Rob Lee: I do the booking myself. I sometimes get referrals that's pretty rare. But just being aware. So like if I'm in Station North and I see that giant LED board in Baltimore. That person's work is cool. I'm going to reach out to them.
It's as simple as that. Even if I go to an art fair or something and someone's work speaks to me. Let me reach out and see if they're interested. I was in Spring Break Art Fair in May.
And actually have an interview on Friday with an artist who I saw his work there. And I was like, this is interesting. This is your provocateur. Let's chop it up. And he was like, lay us, make it happen. And it's as simple as that sometimes.
M'Balou Camara: People want an opportunity to share their story.
Speaker 5: Yeah. I'll go over there. My name is Jordan. I love your podcast. I love your story. Appreciate it. My question is, how do you ever quantify like maybe a loss that you've taken in the podcast game? What you think that you did?
Did you do your best or something like that? When you're interviewing people, I know it's them telling that story. But from your end, maybe it's, I don't know, you've got operations that you quantify that you can improve on. And you carry them in your field.
Rob Lee: All losses. No, never mind. Yeah, I think about that on occasion when I get like an insight from someone, especially in like sort of publishing or in public radio. One person that comes to mind was Harag Vartanian who needs to enter in chief of Hyperallergic Magazine. And he was like, he said, you should probably do less. He just gives me this advice. He said you should probably do less spend more time in some of the research and wasn't a criticism as much as just maybe change how you're going about your work. He saw curiosity and energy and sort of your bandwidth is driving a lot of it, but you're going to burn yourself out. And so I start thinking of things in that way. Also, like, let's just take it to monetary, right? A lot of times it's just like, you're not getting that big fund. You're not getting that big. I don't have any ads.
I don't use ads. So it's just different things that you can miss. So it's always at the end of the year. A lot of like, all right, let me cross this. I don't cross this line sheet out and really thinking about even this year, like I wanted to do 100 episodes this year.
That was just sort of the number I had in mind. And generally I do a lot more and just due to certain circumstances. So like I got to do less. I want to do probably 75. And just making those concessions and being aware and checking in.
Speaker 3: Sure. My name is Rose. I'm curious how you are thinking about the future of podcasting. I feel like, you know, it's having a moment where I love podcasts and they're kind of moving a lot more for YouTube. But there's a video aspect of podcasting. I'm curious how you're kind of approaching the evolution of podcasts and where they are now and where you're looking ahead. Is your evolving and changing anything or anything like that? Yeah.
Rob Lee: Questions. Thanks for the question. The question that comes up all the time, I think, oh, from looking at and observing it, a lot of folks are doing video. It has the impression that a lot of folks are doing videos less than 20%.
That's the number that's floated out there. And it's a higher cost. It's more of a production. And this is literally, I think our topic from last week of my class of are you doing a podcast or something that's meant as radio? Or are you doing a production? If you're doing a production, then let's turn that episode into $7,000 to $8,000 per episode versus something that's probably easier to do. So that's a consideration that's there. I've thought of doing sort of the video portion. I've done a few of the video episodes and then having the audio accompaniment with it as well.
And that's gone well. I've done some at just different landmarks in Baltimore, but the number is almost identical. So it's something that I'm looking at, but I think the rollout, the layout, the volume would be considered would be a lot different. But it is something I think is in the near future that I want to spend more time doing. I want to do more of the video ones and maybe shift the sort of format a bit. Because I think that's a lot to be gained there.
M'Balou Camara: Maybe more in person, like in this format too. This is super intermediate, by the way. A lot of things have to be clipped and plugged in. A lot of things are moving right now. But we made it work. We're making it work.
Rob Lee: That's a cool podcast.
M'Balou Camara: Really, making it work. Any more questions from folks in the audience? Do you publish every interview you do? Or is it ever you had a
Speaker 3: moment when maybe it didn't go quite the way you expected? What's the obligation for them to publish?
Rob Lee: That's a good question. I think there are, it's probably a handful, maybe ten that I just didn't put out there and didn't upload. It was one recently from the ED of a really, really big non-profit in Baltimore. And she remembered the conversation. She was like, can you take that interview down that we did a couple years ago? She was like, I'm using a few too many four little words in it.
And I was like, yeah, sure. But I try to make it a point to, the main consideration is the guests comfortable with what they said and how they said it. And there have been some times where I've done interviews again just to make the guests feel less comfortable in sharing their story. Because that's at the forefront for me. A lot of times this podcast is like the first time someone's been recorded talking about their work or talked about their story.
So I want to do it justice. And if they're not comfortable with it or if I'm like, this didn't work, I was terrible in it, which happens. Not a lot. It happens a lot. That I'll take it down by trying to be as close to what that conversation was in the merit of that conversation.
Speaker 6: Has the experience of having so many insightful conversations transformed your own relationship with curiosity and the art of listening that transfers into your own life as well?
Rob Lee: Really good question. Yes. I joke about this a lot in the pod that I'm only having these conversations with people to make myself sound more interesting. Because I am boring. So I will reference other people like I have first hand quotes from them. But I think in those conversations I'm gleaning a lot. I'm learning a lot some of their influences from the guests, books they've read, who they look up to, who they're inspired by. And it pops up and questions that I'm writing, sort of insights that I'm trying to pull from folks. So yeah, absolutely.
M'Balou Camara: I love that question. Thank you for that. Yeah, the art of listening. And there's also an art of conversation I feel that you spoke of in the podcasting essentials course. Can you tell us a bit about how conversations often feel like an art? Like there's an art to navigating that aspect of the human experience?
Rob Lee: Yeah. I'll reference the Xenia Gray interview again. And I go through, I have between six and ten questions that I really want to ask. And I have like rapid fire questions that I ask as well, which some folks like them. And in it, we're talking through and I have all of these really like wordy and insightful questions about theory and color and all that stuff in our work.
And at a point I was like, I asked this, this didn't really go or maybe she answered two questions in that one response. Some improving as I go along and tweaking as I go along. I'm almost editing while I'm going about it. One of the things that I think I stressed in the class and I stress in the class currently is editing on the fly. It's just like it saves you, you know, sort of that post production editing, which I think the more you're touching something after you've recorded it, you're moving further away from what the conversation was.
You're trying to polish it a little too much. And one of the things that was just felt really cool to hear from from Zinnia is that thank you for the conversation. You make me feel like a human, which is like I've done all these art talks and they're just going to be able to do all these different things.
And it's very scripted and the person didn't have a follow up or the person didn't have anything passed. So this work here was about this and that is just like, you know, that way of being able to tweak on the fly and improvise on the fly. I think you're able to keep the conversation going in that way. And that's one of the things that, due to the probably thousands plus hours, you mentioned more recording hours to sleeping hours that I've learned.
M'Balou Camara: Wow. I feel like there is something to giving artists a chance to seek, like to use their voice. Because not all artists are voice artists. Some are visual, some are choreographers and giving artists a chance to speak, use their voice. Even if English is their third language, still show so much more of who they are as a human. I can see that, how she was grateful for that. Yeah.
Rob Lee: It's one thing I've heard from a few different people. It's one artist that I had on Ariana Viviana who was a re-interview. I had interviewed her a couple of years ago and I was going up to Philly every week. And she mentioned in the conversation, and she followed up from the initial time when we spoke back in September of 2023, that she was in a bad space when we did the initial interview mentally. She was just like, I don't think I'm going to be long for this world. And she shared it in the conversation. And she was like, that was the beginning of her art story. And she went out of her way to share it in this most recent interview. And she was like, I'm so much more comfortable in talking about my work and talking about my mental health at that standpoint.
And I was almost like still equipped because that wasn't a question or anything that I was expecting. And we were able to navigate through that and not be thrown off in the conversation because it was honesty. It was truth in that conversation. And when we were closing up, she was just like, when she shares the podcast with folks, she was like, yeah, I'm talking with the Homie. I'm referred to as the Homie. And it's like we've had three conversations in the span of three years. So cool. I guess that's a connection there. Wow.
M'Balou Camara: So Homie of your 16th nickname?
Rob Lee: It's up there. We'll take numbers. Okay.
M'Balou Camara: So Rob, before we let you go, I heard you mentioned your rapid fire questions, right? That you offer every guest at the end of your episode. I do. So we have what's called the reflex round. That's a stretch. I feel like here I should have put that, you know, that emoji that is it brown? No, it's a purple emoji with like these double ears. Okay. Yeah, yeah.
I like it. The sneaky emoji. I should have put that. That's just the suit. Oh, you're right. You're right. So for the next two minutes, two minutes is all you have.
Here. I will give you a series of deep questions that you must answer and no longer than one sentence. I know this is going to be very difficult.
I'm here for it. And remember, it's a reflex round. So that means that we want to hear what comes to mind. Okay. Deep thoughts, quick answers. Are you ready? I'm ready. Okay. If your life at this stage was a movie genre, what would it be? Romcom.
Speaker 3: What does it mean for you to truly be free? Being open, receiving. Okay. Okay. What question has the world been asking you at this stage in your life?
Rob Lee: What's next?
M'Balou Camara: What's the hardest thing about truth telling?
Rob Lee: Sometimes you're not appreciated for it. What are you most afraid of? Escalators. Y'all laughing. This is, this is true. I'm with you. See, you get it.
M'Balou Camara: What was your childhood dream job?
Rob Lee: Astronaut roboticist. Okay. This is true.
M'Balou Camara: I wrote, I believe you. I mean, truth in this art. You got to be true. Yes, that's right. What are you most curious about?
Rob Lee: It's got to sound very people. Like humans? No, no, no, no. I make believe people. I hope. I want that.
M'Balou Camara: There will be a Q &A portion. What was that? That's the owl.
Rob Lee: The one from outside. Where is that? Oh, that one. This is an owl? Yes. That's what it's called. Oh, yeah. Yeah, look at the front over there.