Grouchy Greg Watkins: Founder of AllHipHop.com on Building a Resilient Brand in Hip-Hop

Rob Lee: Welcome to The Truth in This Art. I am your host, Rob Lee. Thank you for tuning in to these conversations at the intersection of arts, culture, and community. This is the podcast where people share their stories. They share their stories. This is a storytelling podcast, but we like to be authentic. We like to share the real story, warts and all. Not the buttoned up sort of public persona, but the real story, the real conversation. And today, in that vein, we have a great, great guest. His work has been featured in L.A. Times, New York Times, New York Post, TMZ, Yahoo. I'm going to take a deep breath because the list goes on and on, including Billboard, the Associated Press and CNN. He is a 25 plus year veteran of the entertainment industry, and he is the founder of AllHipHop.com. Please welcome the great Grouchy Greg Watkins. Welcome to the podcast. Co-founder, founder of AllHipHop.com, right?
Greg Watkins: Yes, sir. A founder of all hip hop. We launched it. My business partner and I got together in 1997. And here we are 25 years later, you know, still still going at it, you know.

Rob Lee: Yeah. And I definitely, I definitely have some, you know, some questions that tie in it because I started looking at numbers. I'm a data analyst by, by day. And I'm like, all right, hip hop turned, you know, 50 last year. And I was like, you guys are like 25, like the son of hip hop and all, but we'll definitely get into that, um, a little bit deeper. But, um, Yeah. So you gave sort of the the intro line, like the founder, what have you. Does it does it go deeper than that? And the reason I ask is, you know, usually I do these intros and, you know, we do the press release, we do all of that stuff. And, you know, you have artists and they have their artist statement, but there's something left out. There's always something left out inevitably. So, you know, giving you sort of that space and tapping back in, give us that that introduction, like who's who are you as the person? you know, aside from like the founder, you know what I mean?

Greg Watkins: Yeah, definitely. I mean, you know, me as a person, I am, you know, really into technology. And I have been since I was two or three years old. I've always been infatuated with radios. I've been infatuated with record players. I've been infatuated with watches. I've been infatuated with cell phones. And, you know, I mean, all of these things, I But with the exception of the record player, which was made in the 1890s, I have had most of these technologies as they were emerging. You know what I mean? So when tape recorders became available for consumers, my parents bought me one when I was two or three years old. And we're talking the mid-70s. When turntables, you know, started becoming a big thing in hip hop, I had to have a pair. I had mixers, you know, I had, you know, boom boxes with TV, a TV on it. You know what I mean? Like, I just have always been interested in emerging technology. And, you know, that's really how I found my way into all hip hop and, you know, the Internet. And, you know, believe it or not, it is hard to believe for some of your younger listeners that at one point the internet was an emerging technology, you know. And so, you know, that was something that immediately drew my attention because, you know, I my first career was as a record label CEO, you know, in addition to being in the technology I always wanted to be an entrepreneur, you know, so I had, you know, followed the likes of Barry Gordy and read their biographies and all these things throughout high school. Curtis Mayfield, a huge influence on my career, not just because of his music, but because he was also an entrepreneur with, you know, his first record label, Wendy's. And then he obviously formed, you know, his his record label and you know, his famous record label, Curtom. And, you know, those things, you know, really inspired me as a young person, because they were pretty much the same age as I was when I was starting, when they, you know, experienced their success. And so, you know, I just, you know, kind of mashed all these things together. And then because I've always been into hip hop culture, I mean, I've been in hip hop since I was, you know, seven, eight, nine years old. And it was something very natural to me, you know, rapping, DJing, breakdancing, even dabbling in graffiti, not necessarily on walls, but, you know, drawing and. I kind of put it all together. And by high school, I had my first record label set up. As we were discussing before the call started, I live in Delaware, where it's the home of incorporation. This is where everybody incorporates. And so I incorporated my first record label in high school, put out my first 12-inch in my first releases, you know, when I was in my final year of high school, put out my first 12 inches that got reviewed in Billboard in 1993, you know, and then by 97, 90, I would say 95, 96, I figured out the Internet. I figured out MP3s. I figured out how to sell my MP3s. I figured out how to distribute my physical property, my physical merchandise, records and tapes to people all throughout the world. And, you know, that's that's where it started. So who I am as a person, I feel like I am a living, breathing embodiment of somebody who lives and breathes all different forms of new technology.

Rob Lee: I hear it. And thank you. I've checked out because I did my research. I saw you over the years as the as the beard was forming and, you know, that the flavor was there. And I was like, all right, I see Greg. I see Greg out here. And, you know, that that rings through as a consistent piece. And, you know, We all had like I'm I'm thirty nine. Right. And I remember, you know, some of these two things. Right. I remember doing that comparison thing like LeBron James is like a month older than me. So I was like always tracking like, all right, where you at, bro? Do I have my version of that in my minuscule lane? But also being in high school, having sort of this entrepreneurial mindset, I was in there like with the duffel bag, right, with the wild duffel bag, like undercutting, like, you know, our snacks, like undercutting the cafeteria, like, I'm selling these two for three. And it was wild. And also, I was rapping, I was rapping at the time. And it was a creative outlet for me. And You know, I've talked about on this podcast, kind of having different creative lives. That's the way I'll put it. Like early on, you know, just wanting to draw all of the stuff. And there was a little bit of the graffiti style in there because of the age. And then, you know, got to a point where I was like, No, I don't know if drawing is going to work because, you know, I got that rejection thing and it was just like, oh. So I was like, oh, let me start writing. It was poetry and short stories and then rapping, which was that's an era. That is an era. I used to wear nothing but Mecca and that I was a wild dude. And the cornrows were not good. The cornrows I had at the time were not good. They were very thick.

Greg Watkins: At least Mecca was a good fashion choice.

Rob Lee: True. I had this, uh, the one pair of jeans that had, like, the full paragraph on one of the back pockets, and girl, she used to always look at my butt and like, yo, what's on your ass? It's like… life, you know, and, and for the last 15 years, this has been my creative outlet, kind of interacting with folks, you know, whether doing like a podcast on my own for about 10 years, and then doing sort of this, and I always affectionately call it, I talk with people more interested than I am. That's what this is, you know. So You know, that's sort of that that that trajectory. But I guess I can. It's safe to assume, right? Because you're you're a technology guy that you always have the new iPhone. You always get that new gadget on you.

Greg Watkins: Always got the new gadget, you know, right now. So I got a little tired of the iPhone. You know, I switched over to Android, which, you know, you either love it or hate it. But right now I've got the Motorola Razr Flip. Nice. Love it. In fact, right now, so far, you know, it's the best phone that I've ever had, you know, and I'll give Motorola props for, you know, really designing a great phone because I was a Motorola user. I mean, I had pagers. I had all those things. And even in my early days of cell phones, most of my phones, going back to 91, 92, were Motorola's. And then, you know, obviously more competitors started popping up. Motorola really fell out, you know, because they just you know, they were making blackberries and all these other things that. that didn't stand the test of time. So when I saw that they had put out this new Motorola RAZR, I had the original RAZR flip phone that was clam phone, and I loved it. I just loved the whole entire aesthetic of it. So when I did my comparison about flip phones, I settled on this. I like I have a love hate relationship with Google and I was going to get the Google one that opens up, you know, into a mini notebook. But I started saying to myself, you know, I'm trying to go smaller, not bigger. I got tired of having these big ass phones in my pocket. You know, you sit down and they're jamming your hip or you got to take them out. You can't really put them in your back pocket. You know, the phones have just gotten a little too clunky. So when I saw this one, you know, that actually opened up into a larger size screen, but still folded flat, I was hooked. And then, you know, the screen, the springs, everything about it. It's just it's the best foldable on the market, if you ask me. Now, other people will argue with me about that, but.

Rob Lee: I mean, I'll say this, you know, before I move on to this next question. So I got to say it, you know, I want, you know, if the rays are kind of coming back is like you said, you had the original joint and now you have this one. I want that brick phone to come back. I want that Nokia, that Thor's hammer joint to come back, not for communication, for other things.

Greg Watkins: If I knew you were going to talk about it, I would have brought my original phone. I still have my first cell phone framed in a case where I keep all of my important artifacts to me that I've collected over the years, mostly technology pieces. So my first two-way pager, my first brick. Rick phone, my first T-Mobile sidekick, you know, my first Palm Pilot. People forget about Palm Pilots, you know, where you had these things that you could write on and save them. I mean, I had all those things, you know, and they were all useful for me. to be productive. I didn't just have them, you know, like when I saw what really ensnared me into getting these things was not just a cool factor. It was, you know, always I can be one step ahead of my competition if I use this technology the right way, you know.

Rob Lee: That's that's great. That's great. So in shifting a little bit, it kind of teased it a little bit earlier. So considering that, like last year, it was hip hop's 50th birthday, 50th anniversary, whatever the nomenclature was. And and it was cool. We had this really dope exhibit as a lot of places did. And. You know, all hip hop is in that vein, I guess, part of is part of the journalistic side of it. And it's twenty five, twenty six years old going to this year. So give us the sort of rundown. Like, how did it start and what was the initial thinking of the platform like set that stage for us?

Greg Watkins: Yeah, you know, the initial thinking was I thought it was going to be a record label. I was running a record label out here of an out of an office in Main Street on Main Street in Delaware near the University of Delaware's campus. It didn't do what I wanted it to do. I fell behind on all my bills. You know, I was paying to manufacture records and tapes at the time and then sending those off to distributors for them to resell them. And even if they resold them, it would take them 90 days, 120 days for me to get paid. And unfortunately, I was only 22 at the time. So I didn't really have business experience to really understand the concept of billing and receivables and what you might need to float your business in those sometimes up to six months of waiting to get your invoices paid. So I shifted over to the internet because we were selling our tapes, we were selling our music, we were selling, there was a website mp3.com, you know, I had figured out a a way to bundle my MP3s and accept people's credit cards if they wanted to buy our MP3 and then download it behind a paywall. I was doing all that in 96. And I realized, hey, the record label name I had, which was ObliqueRecordings.com, just wasn't memorable enough. So I registered a bunch of domain names, and AllHipHop was one of them. So if you look at the early releases that we put out, Sorry, if you look at the releases that we put out in late 98, there's 12 inches out there that have allhiphop.com on them, you know, because I thought we were going to compete with Raucous Records or, you know, somebody like that. And I noticed how much traffic was coming to the website. And so my part, my current business partner, Chuck Creekmur and All Hip Hop, we go back to high school. So he was already like a mover and a shaker around Delaware as well. He had a radio show at University of Delaware that was probably the most important radio show for underground hip hop really in the state. Like it was the only place that you could hear new stuff. and get also get your music played but we were really good friends and I'm friends with his younger brother like me and his younger brother were were best friends in high school he was best friends with my sister in high school so we were already connected and so I had always asked him to help me with graphic design of my projects. So designing flyers for all hip hop, designing stickers. And he was also doing an online magazine called Tantrum Magazine. And he majored in journalism. So he was already out and trying to crack the pen game, the same way I was trying to crack the music business game. So at some point we just realized, you know what? If we put our collective ideas and power together, we will have something really powerful. So I pivoted from doing the record label, to doing all hip hop. And, you know, I had already set up all hip hop with news and features and all of these things that just weren't really getting filled. You know what I mean? And then when we got together because of his journalism background, it started getting filled. And, you know, we just we shook hands in 97. And here we are today, 25 years later.

Rob Lee: That is that is dope, and it speaks to the collaborative nature of just one feeling, feeling, identifying sort of a lack and filling it and sort of this interview is going to be a part of this this month of interviews that is focused on sort of. Black folk and media. That's just what I'm calling it. And it has that that vein. And I just love hearing those those stories because I'm a black folk. I'm the media. And it is sort of the grind and figuring it out. And sometimes it can be a lonely road, but also figuring out like kind of getting into a spot. you know, in a lane before it actually is formed into a full lane. Like everybody wants to jump on when you see like the lines, they got the white lines and the yellow lines and all of that. Everything looks great. The road is plowed. But when you're making sort of your own thing and you have someone that has complementary skills that, hey, we can do this. That's what I'm hearing there. And it's a nearly for being real about it, nearly a three decade partnership.

Greg Watkins: Definitely. And, you know, we always talk about that of how rare it is for two people of any race in any business to stay together this long and run a business together this long. And I have to be honest, you know, I have so much respect for my partner, you know, that we very rarely have had any serious dustups. I mean, we may have had one or two, you know, over the course of this whole 25 year thing. And even those were not serious enough that they would ever threaten the partnership or the bond that we have. And, you know, I, I, you know, always give him his props because, you know, he is a genius. You know what I mean? With the journalism, the pen game, the way he thinks, you know what I mean? And, you know, The quickest pathway to success is with other people. And so, you know, I realized right away, you know, this guy has what it takes, you know, and he's going to have the same drive and energy as me. And, you know, for the past 25 years, both of us have awakened with the same mission every day. And we never stop. We never give up, no matter how I mean, we've had tough times. You know, this hasn't been a, you know, a cakewalk, as they like to say, or all roses and glory. You know, there have been many difficult months, days, months, days, weeks, months, years, you know. And, you know, we just Keep going.

Rob Lee: And definitely there's a there's a question and keys in on a piece of that, I think a little bit later. But in terms of the success component, right. What is that that breakthrough moment that comes to mind, whether it be it was a feature, whether it was a story, but something that was like, OK, this is huge for us. This is the thing like people ask me when I do this. I'm 700 episodes in four years. Right. Right.

Greg Watkins: Wow. Congrats, man. That's huge. Let me say this real quick. I was podcasting before podcasting was podcasting. I started my first podcast in 2005, and I just didn't keep with it. You know what I mean? I did 20 episodes of a show called Rare Soul, and it was all about the history of black music. And I still have the website. I'm going to relaunch it this year and all that stuff. But anyway, I just always like to throw it out there that, yeah, I was in on podcasting early, too. But 700 episodes, you know, that's that's another level.

Rob Lee: And the thing is, is I'm always on this sort of wave of like I'm about six months ahead, like you're 20, 30 years ahead of people on things, you know, for what I'm hearing. Me, I'm like six, maybe nine months ahead of where is the Gretzky thing, where the puck is going, not going where it's already at. And. You know, in it, you know, people ask me, what are those touch tones? What are those points within all of those interviews that are milestone moments? What was a big interview for you? And I have different ones for different reasons. So as far as all hip hop goes, what comes to mind for you that this was huge in the journey of where we're at now? This was a big story. This was a big traffic getter. This was a breakthrough.

Greg Watkins: So there's two inflection points. The first one is we developed, and you can go as far back as you want, we were the first brand in entertainment to send out wireless news to people's phones, their pagers, there are two ways. Nobody else was doing it. It was unheard of. We started doing it in late 98, early 99. And that was really a force multiplier for the brand. Every rapper wanted to be on it. A bunch of DJs emptied out their two-way lists for me. And that led us to have, just say, Funk Flex, Angie Martinez, radio people on it. They started reading the news that we were delivering right to their hip on the air. And that helped grow the audience and then it just snowballed to the point where everybody in the business recognizes how influential these wireless messages were, whether it's a seasoned music executive like Leroy Cohen or Russell Simmons or Diddy. to, you know, people like I mentioned like Funk Flex or, you know, the people that were on the airwaves and how that helped them curate news for their shows when they went on the air. So that was a big deal. But ironically enough, One of the biggest stories that we broke was the murder of Jam Master Jay. You know, we broke that when it happened in October, October 30th of 2002. And, you know, in the subsequent months and years, it was a story that we never deviated from. I had sources within his camp and people who were in the studio who gave me all of the information on why this death happened, who did it, how it happened. And we started publishing that in 2002 and 2003, that Jay was dealing drugs, unfortunately, because he wasn't making the same kind of money he needed for Run-DMC. We talked about who his suppliers were in Baltimore and named them. We even named the amount of kilos of cocaine that he was buying and dealing. And we named who the possible shooters were at risk of possible defamation or other kinds of retribution. And we followed this narrative for 20 years. And holy smokes, in August of 2020, they charged two guys. They named the amount of cocaine. And now that the trial is going on right now, everything that we published is vindicated. There's no way that they did not look at our website to start forming the basis of their case. call it whatever you want. But, you know, I was lucky enough. And so was my partner, Chuck Jigsaw. You know, we met all of Run DMC. We know Run. We know D. We got to take pictures with all three of them. And, you know, that's like meeting the Beatles of hip hop. You know, so having Jay pass away in such an unsavory manner didn't sit well. And the fact that his killer And those accomplices were walking around, never sat well. So we interviewed everybody. I interviewed his mom before she passed. I interviewed his brother. I interviewed people in the studio. I interviewed the hip hop cop who just testified. I interviewed everyone. And of course, you know, they make Netflix documentaries off this and those guys win Emmys and no disrespect to those guys. I know them all. And both of the producers of those documentaries are friends of mine in the business, but they don't give the proper credit to the source that actually, you know, was the first to break this This story and how it happened and why it happened. And, you know, it's one of those stories where, yes, if anybody wants to argue or try to double down on who should be taking credit for that, there's nobody else in the world but all hip hop that that. followed the Jam Master Jay story and broke it and was right. I mean, the judge, the Honorable Judge D'Arcy Hall, she even cites us, you know, going up to, leading up to the trial, she passed out copies of All Hip Hop and the things that we were printing going up to the trial, you know, to prosecutors in the defense. Because we broke the story that there was going to be a third shooter. involved a third person they were going to be trying and boom there they go you know. A month later a third person is charged. And so that's one of those stories that defined us. But there were a lot, you know, the guy who shot Tupac at the Quad Studio in 96 before Pac passed away or 95, no, 94, excuse me, before Pac passed away. He admitted that to us and, you know, apologized to his mother and Big's mom and. You know, we've the Jimmy Henchman saga with 50 and G unit. We were involved in all of those types of things. But it was more than that, too. You know, it's not just all the crime stuff, you know, but that really was prime. is really one of those beats that early on we were following. But it's other things too, like when Russell Simmons sold Fat Farm, he came to us to break the news. Diddy did some of his early deals, he would come to us to break the news because he respected us as Black-owned media outlets, a Black-owned media outlet.

Rob Lee: Yeah, and thank you, because that's it's a good segue for this sort of next question. And I saw I saw one of these interviews. I know it was you and Jigsaw on the I think it was Swayze joint. And he was speaking on sort of like the the reputation, right? So, you know, they're all there, these offers, right? You get these these things in the background, those weird DMs, those odd emails, these weird offers where it's like, hey, you're this black outlet. You have sort of these different touch points and these different, you can reach folks that they may want to talk to, but they need to use you to get there. And I run into it in sort of my spot or what have you, but still the credit is weird. Sort of how that conversation happens is weird, but the platform, you know, your platform, my platform, to a lesser degree, has this purity, has this sort of like reputation. And that's actually what keeps those connections there, keeps you even from the longest time, as you were describing, sort of having the ear of these executives, having the ear of these folks that are in the scene to be able to help break and be an evangelist for what the aim is. So, you know, how do you keep, you know, all hip hop pure and reputable? you know, in that while while growing and seeing like folks that look like me and you taking these deals that look really weird sometimes.

Greg Watkins: Well, you know, I never knock anybody else's hustle. You know, everybody has their own thing. So, you know, if getting to the bag, quote unquote, if you get to the bag, I don't knock it. You know what I mean? But for us, you know, we were born out of journalism and journalism ethics. You know what I mean? We weren't born on social media or we weren't born, even though we we created urban, the urban landscape for rumors and gossip on the Internet. We we laid that blueprint. And, you know, same thing with Daily News. We laid the blueprint. We laid these foundations for black entertainment on the Internet. Period. End of story. And We even when we were doing gossip or things that may have been salacious, they were still rooted in journalism that if you wanted to call us out on it or say we were wrong, we could pull the receipts, you know. So we've never we've never been the brand that is rooted in anything but real journalism. And also what's also important to us is the integrity. We're not here to tear down artists. We're not here to beef with artists. That's not our position. That's not the place we play. Other people can gladly occupy that space. We're here to work with the artists. We're here to develop the artists. We're here to tell the artist's story. Now, when things happen, we cover it, you know, no matter what it is, good, bad, indifferent, we cover it. But we don't step into the situation with the concept of being salacious for views. You know, we are after the reader that's looking to, you know, gain some insight and some clarity and that is into hip-hop and you know there's this argument about whether hip-hop is dying or whether it's not and you know it's not. There's plenty of purists all around the world and you know sometimes that does get drowned out by the clanging and chatter of social media but It's still here. It still exists. So, you know, what really makes us different is, again, my partner's background is in journalism. That's where it comes from. And so that's what we live by. That's what we abide by. And, you know, that's. That's what all hip hop is, first and foremost. You know, we want to be something that is important to the culture of hip hop. And yes, we've had offers from everybody to buy us. I mean, just last year, I had, you know, three, four buyout offers because after the death of George Floyd, everybody is trying to have some sort of involvement with Black media because of the amount of money that was committed by, you know, big advertisers, which most of it is yet to materialize. But in any case, there's a number of plays going on where people want to own Black media so they can get to scale, so they can get to bigger dollars. And, you know, just the right offer hasn't come along for us.

Rob Lee: Yeah. And thank you for that, because, again, you know, it is this thing where, you know, I don't try to knock anyone going after that thing. But, you know, I look at I look at it from the standpoint of if I'm a stakeholder and I'm a fan of what one is doing, you know, I'm kind of expecting a certain thing and being, you know, sort of in media and in journalism, you know, to to the degree in which I am. you know, I have to pay attention a bit more, you know what I mean? And I remember it was this push, you know, from a major outlet that might be owned by a larger company. And they made this push that they were kind of getting rid of most of their talent and then bringing in and having this shift towards this personality oriented thing. And then I go on there like I'm sure everyone that's a sports fan does every day, looking at the scores, looking at the stats, reading the stories. I'm seeing so many things that are obviously written by A.I., obviously because I work in I.T., you know, and I'm using chat GPT. I'm doing that. And or they're just factually incorrect. Like I put it this way. I'm a huge Rocky four fan, right? That is a movie that came out. Yeah, I was born. I did a holiday like movie night. You exactly. If he dies, he dies. And with it, we had Carl Weathers past recently. And I'm reading over the thing. They had something just factually just super inaccurate. It's like, yeah, you know, from Rocky four from 1984. I was like, that was nearly 86 when that movie came out. So I was like, you gotta be able to go through it. And I get it. It's sort of this push to be first. And that's the thing. And then you have the AI, then you have just people just looking for the sort of the clickage things. And I see outlets who They're not neutral. I try to be neutral with it and just like, here's the information. So for you, for all hip hop, what are those considerations that come to mind? What is good journalism, specifically when it comes to hip hop journalism, hip hop related journalism?

Greg Watkins: You nailed it, man, being factually correct. You know, you know, there have been plenty of times where we have a story and we're ready to go because we know maybe the one source that's telling us is right and trustworthy, but it needs to be verified. And we can't be the first one to go and be wrong. I mean, it's just that simple, you know? And there have been times where we've held back. There've been other times where we know our source is so correct and so right, That we go, you know, so it really is, you know, having an understanding of of being able to trust your sources, you know, and you know. In the instance of breaking news specifically, being able to trust your sources. Outside of that, on every other story, we nail down and drill down on everything. Months, dates, years. We make sure that those things are fact-checked before they go up. We have an editor who does those things. You know, I mean, we're not perfect. There are times when we have been wrong on a date or a month or misspelled the name. But we try to go back and fix those things when they're called out. And the audience will call you out when you're wrong about things. And so, you know, we're not too proud to say, you know what, we better go back in and fix this, because the goal is for us We look at ourselves as chronicler, chronicling hip hop history as well every day. And so we want another generation when they go back and they want to untangle what happened in hip hop in March of, you know, 2007. We want that to be right. We want it to be historically and factually accurate. So we've always had a focus on making sure that those things are right. And, you know, there have been times where we, you know, pulled the trigger, so to speak, on a story because we knew we had to go. We were first breaking news. And there were times we said, you know what, we need to get a little more confirmation on this before we go. And we hold back. And if somebody breaks it before us, they break it before us.

Rob Lee: I've I've done that a few times with having folks. The nature of this is conversational, right? And then you have some folks who they they have a take. They have a position on a thing that it's like, I don't I don't know if that really fits what I'm what I'm aiming for. And I'm a bit apprehensive to run it. And, you know, I've taken enough free speech courses. I've taken enough like English courses. And, you know, being around journalism, I have a degree in it. I have a business degree. But, you know, there are certain things like if you have someone that's a plagiarist, it's not a good thing. If you have to do a retraction. I remember that was a huge deal, like on like night time news. If you're like, hey, we put this story out at five o'clock and at seven we had to do a retraction. It's not a good look. So I think that those are considerations that have to be there, but getting it right and being able to, hey, I screwed that up. Let me fix that, because it is it's an archival asset. Like and even in doing this, like I'm covering a certain time, a certain community and doing this, you know, with a within a certain framework, guiding a conversation in a way that is evergreen. People can go back to it, like, let me listen to Grouchy Greg on this joint. Let me listen to him here. Like, oh, okay, cool, it's consistent. As I said, going through and preparing, I was going through interviews, I was like, all right, this guy's changing. I don't know what's up, he looks different. But so I got two more real questions. I got a few rapid fire questions I've been adding as we've been talking, because I like to have you on the hot seat. All right. So this is sort of this penultimate question. I think as time passes, we get clarity, right? For me, you know, at one point in this sort of four years of doing this podcast, I did over 300 episodes in a year. This is a part-time project of passion, you know? And You know, I had this belief that I got to do more to feel like I'm worthy because we get this comparison thing We get this we get that But you share for you like one or two things that you had to accept to be better at what you do Like I had to realize like I don't need to do that much and I can do this in this way Have fun with it again versus being overly professional about an overly refined like have those you know, those those those rough edges in there. Everything doesn't have to be smooth, smooth and polished. Had to learn those things. So for you, what does that look like that you had to learn and you had to accept to be better for you as an individual, but also for for all hip hop?

Greg Watkins: Yeah, well, a few things. You know, I'm big on these quotes from a book called The Art of Worldly Wisdom. The Art of Worldly Wisdom is basically the genesis for the 48 Laws of Power. Every one of the 48 Laws of Power come from The Art of Worldly Wisdom, which, you know, has 300 of these maxims. You know what I mean? It has 300 of these maxims and One of those maxims is he who's all in all carried all with him when he carried himself. It means you can't rely on anyone else. You have to accept that you are going to be the person that is going to be responsible for everything. That doesn't mean you don't have partners who aren't responsible, but it means that you need to accept your responsibility for what you are doing. That means understanding. You may know a lot, but you don't know everything. So it's constantly learning. So some of the things I learned very quick was there are people out here who are way more talented than I am. And I don't need to compare myself to them. I have my own unique skill set. I'm a unique person. I'm a unique individual. And so, you know, I did go through a phase where comparing myself to people, especially at the beginning of social media, everybody looks so great online and everybody's doing something so cool. And, you know, those can lead to, you know, real real image issues, issues with yourself. And so, you know, I learned early on You know that I'm not perfect. I need to accept that I'm human and that I make mistakes. And if I make a mistake, try to correct it. And, you know, go back to the drawing board, but I'm very big on self improvement and self knowledge and gaining knowledge. I mean, you know, I listen to music, but I listen to more things that are good for my mind more than anything else. Inspirational speakers, you know, podcasts on advertising and ad tech, things that actually make a difference in how I make my living. So, you know, those are the types of things. Another thing is, you know, I'm never ashamed to speak with this, about this. I have some partnerships that I'll be announcing soon, probably premature to talk about now, but accepting that, hey man, you can't become an alcoholic in doing this business. In this business, in my position, everything is free. Liquor, drugs. designer drugs, it all is there for you to take and do. And there were definite times where I overindulged in these things. And you know, I'm proud to say I've been sober for two and a half years, no drinking, no smoking, no anything. But That is something very big about myself that I had to accept. My father's an alcoholic. All of my family have issues with addiction. And so accepting that and making sure that I do not go down that pathway because it would be very easy for me to do. You know, I just came back from the Grammys and everything that I did for the most part was during the day. And even during the day, there were things that were open bar, but I deliberately went back to my hotel room at night after our event. because I didn't want to have to deal with the temptation of drinking alcohol specifically. Now, I know I'm strong enough and I wouldn't have drank, but in all honesty, it's like, hey, I did everything that I needed to do and I was very productive during the week. There's no need for me to be hanging out till one thirty in the morning, two in the morning. Yeah.

Rob Lee: No, thank you. That's very vulnerable, very open, and, you know, You know, I've done this thing over the last six months where I've been doing this weight cutting thing and all of that, and it's just certain things, it's just, you see it. I don't like being rolled. I don't like feeling like, hey, I got a bill of goods. It's like, yeah, man, go out, man, live the lifestyle. It's like, nah, G, I'm all set. And I just, having this sort of regimented thing, And for a bit, I felt like, yo, I'm unfun. I don't like this, but that's something external telling me that. And I was like, what I am doing is this and not having anything that it's a sort of reasoning or cause anything health related. It's just like, I'm making this sort of choice and seeing where it goes. And there's certain things where I don't knock folks when they have like, yo, I am addicted to soda, bro. I can't get past it. It's just certain things that I'm I'm just not into. But I think your point around I don't need to be out here doing this because it's just there. It's just around. And, you know, folks go through like, you know, my birthday was a few weeks ago. Folks like, hey, man, let's go out and get, you know, cake. I remember one year I had five people take me out and we just got like sugary nonsense. I'm like, yo, I could do one of these. I can't do all five now. I appreciate it. But, you know, just being around, I'm going to get a couple cookies. I know I'm going to, so I need to limit my exposure to it.

Greg Watkins: Now, when you take into account things like alcohol, which I'm not saying that's any worse or worse than what you're eating, because who knows what your family history is. Maybe it's diabetes, where sugary things can lead to real problems, like having your limbs amputated. So these are things in our community that we have to take serious, especially in the Black community. And knowing that both sides of my family, my mom's side and my dad's side, suffered from serious addiction with alcohol and drugs. It's something that I have to take deathly serious. And I went through a phase where I thought, oh, I'm not going to be fun anymore because I'm not drinking. But you know what? I got to a point where I wasn't fun when I was drinking. Alcohol is a depressant. So the more you drink, it's tried, trued, and tested. You're eventually going to fall into some sort of depression. And there's no fun in that. And you know, I just got to a point where I was like, you know what? I've got two young children. I wanna live long enough to see them graduate college and see them off into the world as young, successful men. And I'm not gonna be able to do that with this type of lifestyle, number one. And number two, my body is not made of steel. And even steel, over the course of time, rusts and decomposes. So imagine how much faster your internal organs, which are made of flesh, These things rot your organs. That's what they do, you know. And, you know, so I said, you know what, man, I just you know, I have no shame in it. I have no shame in my testimony and telling people. And if I can help people specifically in the music business understand that you don't have to be drunk and high to participate in this business. I do go out to clubs at night and I do go out and hang out at certain events. There's just no drinking or smoking involved in it. You know what I mean? And it's still just as fun. A lot of times, you look back and realize the most fun of your journey is the journey itself, not the drinking and the smoking. It's having your goals set up, the thrill of accomplishing your goals, and the things that you set out to do. When you say, you know what? I'm going to do this. I'm going to hit this goal. It could be a financial goal. It could be a personal goal. It could be a fitness or weight loss goal, any of those things. But the thrill is in hitting the benchmarks and the goal.

Rob Lee: So I got the one last real question.

Greg Watkins: And then we have to talk about Delaware.

Rob Lee: We do. We got to talk about Delaware a bit, too. I like to get sort of the full story, right, from folks. And often I think when we go through, you know, like we look at our biopic, right, as like this is a two hour movie. And it's like, yeah, it's really four. You left out all of that stuff when you was like mid for like 20 years or whatever the thing was. So, you know, talk a bit about some of those like the negatives, but negatives in this way, like we have our positive, we talk about our wins, but sometimes rejection. I think that's often a thing for folks that is deemed as a negative, as a challenge. But I think, because I'm on the petty awards, I'm there. Like when someone rejects me and then they suddenly come back around, oh, please believe. I'm like, yeah, tell me more. Why you didn't like me now? Now you're messing with me. It's like I'm Mike Jones right now. Can you speak on the positives of rejection, like, or sort of not that full acceptance? Like, speak on that a bit.

Greg Watkins: Yeah. You know, when we were getting started, I mean, we were rejected by everybody and everything. People thought the Internet was for nerds. You know, there was still a magazine ecosystem, you know. And, you know, honestly, throughout our 25 year career, I would say to say, I think it's safe to say that we are a bit of an outlier. to the music industry because we are fiercely independent. Nobody owns us, nobody controls us, you know, and, you know, while that's good in many aspects, there are some negative aspects to that. But the concept of rejection, whether it's being rejected by somebody you love or being rejected in business, you know, rejection, and I know the audience hears this all the time probably, but Rejection is something that you should practice with. Rejection is something that you should use to build strength and character. It's not something that you should necessarily take personal. And you should be looking for the lessons in the rejection. Why were you rejected? Could you have approached things different? Could you have done things different? You know, you really have to have a You have to be able to self-reflection. One of my favorite sayings, again, from this book is, there are mirrors for the face, but there are none for the mind. There's no mirror to look at yourself in your mind. So you have to be cognizant of that, and you have to constantly be self-aware. And so rejection becomes less painful. You know, now, I mean, listen, I've been in relationships that have failed. I've been in relationships where, you know, I was supposed to get married and I was engaged in it, imploded. You know, sometimes I blamed it on all hip hop and saying it's because I'm in this big business. But at the end of the day, Those things failed because of my inadequacies, drinking, smoking, hanging out late. I could have done things different, is the point. And that's true for mostly everything. So, you know, I mean, I look at rejection much different now, obviously, because I'm a bit more seasoned. But for all of the young people that are listening, you need to learn to accept rejection. And then rejection doesn't feel so much like rejection as much as it feels like a tool for you to learn how to do something different and find the lesson so that you can become a better person or a better businessman or woman or whatever you identify as.

Rob Lee: Yeah. No, that's, that's, that's great. That's a great spot for us to kind of wrap the, the real, real questions on. And I like to look at it like, like this. I use the, I watch the old Kung Fu movies, right? And it's like, yeah, you know, I couldn't take those kicks. Now I can take those kicks, those kicks of rejection. It's like, I'm blocking that now. Oh, okay. You got a little bit more steam on it. It ain't much, you know, I'm blocking that. You know, flipping your head again. All right. So I got a few and I definitely want to key in on the first state as well through the lens of arts, culture and community. But here's here's the first one. These rapid fire questions. I like to give these to folks because it's usually something that either I'm super curious about, something I saw maybe in the research or something that stood out in the conversation earlier. So the first one I got for you, and don't overthink these, like whatever your answer is, it's like that's your answer. Yeah. What was the first record you owned?

Greg Watkins: The first record I owned that was my own, that I bought with my own money was The Drifters, I'll Take You Where The Music's Playing. One of the best albums by The Drifters came out on Atlantic Records. Atlantic Records was a, and still is, but was a historic label for black and jazz artists. But that was the first full record that I bought on my own. And I still listen to it probably once a month to this day. I mean, everything on it is great.

Rob Lee: That's dope. I didn't buy my first one, but this is this is actually kind of funny. The first record that was mine, it was a birthday present. So technically, it's kind of like money that's being, you know, it was 13. It was what is it? Wu-Tang Forever. That's what my dad's like. That's all it's wanted. I was like, cool. I'm gonna keep listening to this though. Oh, it's on ODB? Fantastic.

Greg Watkins: I was riding around in my little jeep when that album came out, bumping it, you know, big rims on my car and all that. I mean, I'll just say that to say, like, gag, you're making me feel old.

Rob Lee: So I'd be remiss if I didn't ask. So yeah, Grouchy Grey, that's the name. Do you have a favorite Sesame Street character? That's a ridiculous question, I know.

Greg Watkins: I mean, I did like Oscar the Grouch. I do think he's the funniest character, but I didn't name myself after any Sesame Street characters. But, you know, I always took to him. I love Trash, his songs, his attitude, his nasty attitude, stuff like that, because he was nasty, but he was also like a funny, a funny guy, you know?

Rob Lee: Oh, yeah. Because we're recording this, you're enjoying something I'm jealous about. I need to confirm which one it is. Coffee or tea?

Greg Watkins: Coffee all day. I don't drink it all day. I'm saying coffee over tea all day. Absolutely.

Rob Lee: I've been on this Cortado kick. You know, do like, you know, that joint is like I got like I do like two of them before noon and then by the afternoon, it's just like, all right, I got to switch to green tea. I can't just be out here because my partner, she'll be like, you know, you just drink like you're starting off with like a black eye. Like what? Why are you just just just expresso? That's just what you do. I was like, I do. Mind your business. Okay, this is the last sort of rapid fire one, and I think this is a ridiculous word. Well, ridiculous question. What is a word that you absolutely just hate hearing? You're like, I don't write that. I don't like hearing that word. Some people don't like the word moist, you know?

Greg Watkins: I don't know. You know, I never really thought about that. There's not too many words that, you know, when I hear them, I hate.

Rob Lee: You know, it's an odd question. It's an odd question, but people have no, no. That's a short one. I like it. I don't like, yes, it's like, ah, yes, concussion, you know, that whole thing. Um, so, so tell us a bit, you know, for the folks, cause you know, you know, as I was touching on earlier, um, before we got into like the, the main crux of the conversation, like the, the sort of pre-chat, talk a bit about like the first state, about Delaware, you're, you're up there. So like, talk a bit about like the arts and culture there, because, You know, that is, I've been curious about it. Like I was, you know, telling you before we got started, I was doing these interviews in Philly and obviously I'm taking a train up and I've got to go through Delaware and it's a neighbor. So all I know is like Biden, that's it. Tell me, tell me about Delaware.

Greg Watkins: I mean, there's a lot going on here. To start off, obviously, Biden. Senator Chris Coons is introducing an act for artists called the No Fakes Act. I just interviewed him. It's online. You can Google Chris Coons, Grouchy Greg. But it's, you know, he's proposing a new piece of intellectual property to protect your voice so you can license your voice out the same way you may license out your image. I think that to say from the top down, there's a very vibrant arts scene here. You know, people think that we're on the moon, but as you notice, we're in between Baltimore and Philadelphia, and we're very influenced by these two cities. And, you know, the creative economy is here. It drives over a billion dollars worth of revenue into the economy. I'm on the State Council for the Arts, so I get to see, you know, all of the different types of arts, whether it's fashion, you know, painting, music, poetry, I mean, anything related to the arts, you know, I'm pretty much involved in in some way, shape or form. And it's great here. I mean, there's no sales tax, you know, the property value is very good. And let me give you a little gem here. So When people think of Delaware, they obviously don't normally think of the entertainment industry, but the entertainment industry was born from Delaware, the entire entertainment industry. So if you go back to the 1890s, Camden, New Jersey was the center of the entertainment business. That's where all of the first record players were made. Emile Berliner had the gramophone. Edison made his gramophone. There was another gentleman who spun off of the Berliner's company. His name was Eldridge Johnson, and he invented, he created the Victor Talking Machine Company. The Victor Talking Machine Company made Victrolas. Victrolas ended up, the Victrola, the Victor Talking Machine was bought by the Radio Corporation of America and they merged. He got $40 million, which is equivalent to $650 million in today's money. And that became RCA. RCA eventually became the record label. And that's how you got RCA Records, RCA Victor, the Deluxe label. I mean, Ray Charles was on RCA. You know, Elvis Presley was on RCA. I mean, you know, any number of people on RCA. But the founder of that company was from right here in Delaware. And so I always like to tell people, you know, this is not history that's well known, even though we have a museum dedicated to him down here. the entertainment industry, the roots of it were here. And so we can be in New York in an hour and a half by train, two hours by car. We can be in D.C., as far down as D.C., in an hour and a half by train or car. You know, I used to run into Biden on the train all the time before he was president, you know, so. Delaware has a very vibrant arts scene. I encourage all of my fellows, Baltimoreans, Baltimoreans, whatever y'all are, Baltimoreans, come up because, you know, I love Baltimore. I mean, I spent a lot of time in Baltimore because my lawyer's offices are on Calvert Street down there. So, you know, I spent a lot of time down there even before I had all hip hop. I was a regular at clubs like Hammerjacks when they were open. You know what I mean? So Baltimore is a hop, skip and a jump from Delaware. And, you know, Delaware has a lot of historical roots. You know, we're the first state to incorporate in the nation into the United States. That's why we're called the first state. We're the last state to abolish slavery. You know, so there's that. The northern part of the state. had a lot of famous abolitionists who supported Frederick Douglass and Harriet Tubman. They were all here in this state at some point or another. And then the lower portion of the state owned slaves. So it's a very interesting state. And then to top it all off, y'all know this, We got the beaches here because that's where everybody comes. We've got Rehoboth Beach, Ocean City, Maryland is, you know, right at the line. So, you know, I mean, this is a great state in the summertime, the beaches are popping, you know, it's a great thing to do to do with your family. And then you have up here where it's, you know, little more city, maybe not as big of a city as Baltimore, but, you know, there's city life and a nightlife scene here. And then you can go up to Philly if you want to do something or down to Baltimore if you want to experience, you know, a bigger city. So, you know, I love Delaware, man. And being on the State Arts Council has really afforded me the opportunity to just see how vibrant this scene is and how many movers and shakers are here. I mean, I'm not gonna name drop people, but I'm telling you there are a lot of famous people that live here in Delaware. I'm talking about top-notch A-list people. I mean, there's been times, I'll say this because it's no big deal, I won't call anybody in the hip-hop industry out who's here, but there's been times I've been at the beach and run into Oprah Winfrey on the boardwalk, just walking around. Wow. That's true stories. So it's a it's a great place to be. And like I said, I'm always trying to encourage the artists here. to collaborate more with the rappers in Baltimore and the rappers in Philadelphia. And, you know, I always try to tell people, you know, I know we talk about the DMV. Y'all like to call it D.C., Maryland and Virginia. But Delmarva is what it really stands for. It's the peninsula, Delaware, Maryland and Virginia. DMV, Delmarva. Everybody who listens from you down there is going to be up in arms. And I said it, but it's not D.C., it's Delaware. And so I always encourage, you know, there should be this real collaboration from an industry standpoint and from an artistic standpoint amongst this great peninsula that we live on.

Rob Lee: That's that's that's a great way to to close out. And definitely we'll be talking. We'll be talking because I got some ideas. But in that one, two things I want to do. One, I want to thank you so much for coming on and being a great guest. This is truly going to be a really like highlight of this podcast and this this sort of arc. And two, I want to invite and encourage you to share with the listeners like your, you know, social media, website, all of that good stuff. You know, shameless plugs. The floor is yours.

Greg Watkins: Allhiphop.com, A-L-L-H-I-P-H-O-P.com. No spaces, no dashes. Allhiphop.com on all social medias. Facebook, it's A-L-L-H-I-P-H-O-P-C-O-M. Twitter, same thing. Instagram, same thing. For my personal socials, everything is at Grouchy Greg, G-R-O-U-C-H-Y, G-R-E-G. With the exception of Facebook, it's just Grouchy, G-R-O-U-C-H-Y. I managed to snag that one word when they let you start getting custom domains on Facebook. So yeah, that's it. You know, please log on, check us out. You know, it's a great website. If you're into hip hop culture, this is where you get your crash course on what's happening.

Rob Lee: And there you have it, folks. I want to again thank the great Greg Watkins, Grouchy Greg, Grouchy Greg Watkins for coming on to the podcast and sharing a bit of his journey and the story behind all hip hop. And I'm Rob Lee saying that there's art, culture and community in and around your neck of the woods. You've just got to look for it.