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Rob Lee: Welcome. your source of conversations connecting arts, culture, And community. These are stories that matter, and I am your host, Rob Lee. Accept no substitutes. Today I am thrilled to welcome an artist who is using Shakespeare to tell his own story of survival, rejection, and redemption. A celebrated performer bringing his solo play, How Shakespeare Saved My Life to Washington, DC's Folger Theater. Joining me, the acclaimed performer, playwright, and one of American Theater's people to watch is Jacob Ming Trent. Welcome to the Truth in His Heart.

Jacob Ming-Trent : What's up, man? How you doing?

Rob Lee: Thank you for coming on. Um and I'm doing pretty well, and I'm doing very well for this reason, right? You know, outside of being able to talk to you, you're a fellow bespectacled individual. I always appreciate when my people wear their glasses. It's just like in a world of of contacts and LASIK.

Jacob Ming-Trent : When we see the four eyes between the brothers and sisters. Yes, yes. we're in glasses as I was six years old, I believe. So uh yeah, we're used to it.

Rob Lee: since Uh since three for me, so I'm coming up on uh yeah, yeah, yeah. I've uh it the eyes, it's the eyes, it's just but um, you know, outside of uh talking about eyeglasses and such, I want to, you know, talk a bit about starting off here in this what I'll call my first act. Um I would love it for you to introduce yourself and if you will, in that introduction, um share who you are creatively, your creative identity.

Jacob Ming-Trent : I'm not thinking about it. Uh my name is Jacob Ming Trent. I'm an actor, a writer, a theater maker, um a storyteller, really. Um you know, I've been doing this for about thirty years, a little over thirty years. So uh there's been a lot of stages in that. So now I'm in my storyteller phases, uh telling stories and with uh scripts, telling stories and poetry, telling the stories is uh of the theater and all of it. And um it's a really good phase. It's my favorite part of the work, so uh I'm excited.

Rob Lee: It's wonderful, it's wonderful. Um, and you know, on here, you know, I do my intro and I talk about stories that matter, and I like to frame it as I'm facilitating storytelling, so have an opportunity to have a fellow storyteller on, although in a sort of different medium, fire, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So in in doing a bit of the research, you know, I I I was looking at it, I saw Pittsburgh come up, and I'm I'm in Baltimore, so you know there's a thing as you took your glasses off.

Jacob Ming-Trent : There's a thing there. Uh but we won't hold it against you. Um But you moved you moved to New York and um you're with late teen seventeen, I'm reading, and you know, you moved there to train at the Stella Stella Adler Conservatory. So take us back to that time. What was it like moving to the city at that age?

And 'cause you you hear about it. I'm moving to New York. I'm gonna go there and I'm gonna make it and you know, things of that nature. At 41, I'm thinking of it all the time because I'm up there to New York, probably every you know, quarter or something. But

talk about that time for us. Um recently dropped out of high school and um I have been homeless the previous year. So I looking back on it, uh it seemed like very those two things were separate, the homelessness and the move to New York. But

actually I realized now that they were connected. Um New York seemed like my only option. It seemed like all I had. Yeah,

um, it was my only chance. So I had to move to New York. My father put it that way. He said, If you just moved to New York, you might have been dead. But

he's right. I moved to New York, um, really is a function of saving my life. Um I had already been homeless. So the uh moving to New York wasn't scary. Um I stayed on people's couches, you know. At that time you can eat really cheaply in New York. There's

these these um lenders on the streets that would sell uh apples and oranges and bananas for like a quarter, you know, so you could eat a cup of coffee and a bag with a dollar and fifty cents, a silver bride was a dollar and a quarter, dollar fifty, you get to wherever you wanted to go, and audition for acting school, and they let me in with the scholarship, you know, so it was like, oh, I'm making out here. Uh it didn't feel like it was hard. It felt like it was it was free. I was living and I was chasing my dream, and people said that you know, I had a shot at it, so I'm I was okay.

Rob Lee: Wow. Wow, I I had no idea. That's you know, you having having that sort of being in New York, and that sounds like the New York story, right? It's like Yeah, you know, it was so so many things going on and and you know, it was such such a different situation and it was so much cheaper than the coffee cups were this, the bagels were that, and I you know, living in a very meager situation. I'm like, Yeah, yeah, I I've heard this in movies. This is a stor but then having someone that had the real life experience of that.

Jacob Ming-Trent : I mean, the real life experience is as I remember it now is the action of going to class every day and studying what I wanted to study and being around the the possibility of hope, having hope. I mean, Pittsburgh hasn't had much much hope. That wasn't because of Pittsburgh itself of my family. Uh

my father was an addict, my mother was married and abusive man, and uh I I grew up in an abusive home. So when I got out there this meeting, this two people that told me, Hey man, you might be able to shot this, I was like, Oh, uh you believe oh, okay. I'm loving the people that believe. You know, I felt New York was at that time it was a sighting, it felt like a big city. I didn't know anyone. Um it was nice. It was really nice. Now I thought it was like a small city where I know everybody, but that's not a story.

Rob Lee: The the size and the perspective of things gives you a a different uh a different perspective and and and then also that familiarity now that you're you're describing and and also I'm hearing sort of that belief of having that belief in you, um and it kind of there's power in that, I think. So

sort of th the follow up to that or or sort of the the the the saving your your your life piece. So that's you know, when when did Shakespeare come to you? Like was it an interest early on or curiosity or exposure that sort of kicked off that that journey in that direction, that's like Shakespearean direction and you know, I 'cause I've been listening to folks and when we start off these these conversations, I always like to go really far back and then you just find like, oh, I was exposed to something earlier and that tracks and connects to what I'm doing now. So for you, how did Shakespeare come about?

Jacob Ming-Trent : You know, the first mention of Shakespeare in my life was my

Rob Lee: dad when I was six years old, he had his library of books, he was an English major, and he said his two favorite books were Baraka, something by Baraka, Larry Baraka, and something uh fellow mentioned by Shakespeare. And um that was my first experience of Shakespeare. And I said to him when I was six years old, should I read this? And he

said, Yeah, you should, but not now. Um you know, and uh about six years later, I was in school and I walked to the wrong classroom and they were doing Shakespeare. But I tried to sneak out and the teacher was like, No, man, you gotta read the Shakespeare speech. So I I I did I read the Shakespeare speech and it was just clipped right away. I mean, it was um if I've been s reading it my whole life. Didn't take

too much time for me to get it. Um so it felt like home to me. And it helped me find it it gave context and uh the words were big enough and the s and the structure of the sentences and the and the meaning uh I don't give context to my emotions that were inside. And uh it was a good vessel for that 'cause I could release what I was feeling about my own life and about the struggles I was going through through his words. Um it was

a magnificent connection to that way. I mean, I really thought you know, I thought at that time, well I'm I'm uh um amazing, okay, I'm gonna read Shakespeare. But really it was my father being an English major and a writer and a novelist and my mother being a British and and growing up in that system of Shakespeare the whole time and my grandmother being a writer and and uh an editor for the Pittsburgh Courier. Um so I was in a house that was uh that was full of language. They used language in a very specific way, and so when I come to language, I view it from that way, you know, because of them. Wow.

Jacob Ming-Trent : It it's it's always always floating around in the family somewhere that it's just like, yeah, you know, this was happening. You you just you just delve a little bit. It's like, yeah, you know, I had a relative that was in the house, like, you know, my mom was doing this for a bit, like, okay, go on, tell me tell me more, tell me more. And you know, I I go back because in part i in doing some of these conversations, it's almost like I'm having the conversation with myself and that you know, and and that feels so gauche and woo-woo sometimes, but you know, it's like I would ask myself this thing, like creatively, what was the first thing? And it's like, oh yeah, I can connect it to my grandmother and my my uncle and and so on, of you know, pursuing art or even when it came to audio, you know, having those conversations that you're like, I wish I could capture this. I wish I

could keep this. We're having a really fun and interesting dialogue, and I'm doing twenty, twenty-five years later, that sort of notion and that perspective leads to me doing the podcast, how I'm doing it and why I'm doing it. So those family, those familiar connections, yeah.

Rob Lee: That's exactly right. I mean, look, I'll go b uh and go further back. Um I I'm a rebellious person by nature. I am I've been rebellious in my art and in my my dealing with Shakespeare, which has been um which has been at times uh as car challenges, but at times as open doors. I mean, this

probably wouldn't have round in the ri I wouldn't have written this play if I wasn't being rebellious, you know. But um my great grandfather lived down south, he owned a uh a taxi company, it was horse and buggies. And um and he it sent his kids into a store that was owned by a white man of the town, and um and something happened with the kids in the store owner, they ran home crying and then you know, and he said, Okay, I have to deal with this. Now he was very popular in this town. Um, and uh the town folks liked him a lot, you know. But he went down to this town, which I was in this town's store, and uh he got into a fight with the store owner, and he almost dragged him out into the street um and he almost killed him in the middle of the street for what he did to his children. Um the town people liked him so much, and it said they came to him later that night, um, and they knocked on his door and they said to him, We won't we don't want to do anything, we don't want to hang you, we don't want to beat you. We're just gonna ask that you leave. And he said

so he was asked to pack up everything and leave the state, and so he left and he went to Pittsburgh, and that's how he landed there. Wow. Um So, also when we talk about our family heritage, uh all that stuff is in the blood, I like to say it's in the blood, it makes it rich. And if we learn how to use it for positive, um, it can fuel us. I think I've learned how to use it for the positive, and it's definitely fueled me. Wow, that is wow.

Jacob Ming-Trent : That that's unexpected, and it's showing that that line of even from you know, a period that you weren't around for just seeing those, as you said, those those sort of lines. Uh wow. That

um so I I wanna I want to talk about you know, that rebellion, that that rebellion a little bit more, but specifically to some figures that seem to have a bit of influence or in that conversation of of saving your life. We have obviously they have Shakespeare, but also Biggie, Tupac, James Ball and Boschiat, family, friends, and so on. Talk a bit more about some of these these figures and how literally the the saving of your life is is connected to them, whether it be through the how they how they operate or how they live, their contributions creatively, but talk more about that because not often do I see you know Biggie and Pac and Shakespeare sort of together. So you should be together more often, but they should be.

Rob Lee: I mean, you know, like I like to say, you know, Shakespeare it's an urban poet reporting what he saw. You know, it's Tupac is an urban poor poet reporting for what it's all. And so is Biggie as well. And so when when you hear about the struggles that uh Biggie is talking about Tupac talk about you realize those are our struggles. I mean, hip

hop's important because it was one of the first times we can listen across the radio, um, we can listen across the ether and hear somebody talking about what I was experiencing in Pittsburgh. He was in St. Louis talked about what I experienced. I can hear them in LA or I can hear them in Brooklyn talking about what I experienced. Or I could

hear Shakespeare 400 years ago, 400 years ago writing about when he was singing, and it was similar to what and Bigdy would say. And I I just I mean, that to me was very important. It was eye opening. Reading Bosniot's story, um, and his war with the fine arts community, you know, reading about um Baldwin and Baldwin leaving the country to to to search and to find his own way. I mean, all these stories are these people trying to save their lives to some way by fine art, by poetry and talking about their community, um all trying to save their life. And that inspires me. It inspires me to to actually keep fighting. You know, I look about thinking about them and I think I gotta keep fighting. I gotta keep fighting because I love them and I gotta keep fighting because of the kids that come behind me. I love them too. Yeah. It's wonderful.

Jacob Ming-Trent : I love that. And yeah, you know, I always look for the the story under the story. It's like, oh, this person makes this great work, or this is really interesting. I am inspired in this way as a creative, but what is that layer under and really making those connections of sort of I love them, I love what they do, and I want to be able to serve as almost a being a person that's inspired, but also as a conduit to the folks that are coming after me, and you know, you could take something from it. And really thinking of the the Baldwin piece too, there's like, well, what I'm looking for isn't quite here. I gotta maintain this curiosity and explore and really search.

Rob Lee: Right, that's right. And we and you know Baldwin's piece of how I stopped shaming Shakespeare was really inspiring to me. Um because he said, you know he I like to record it directly, but he said with urban poets. Shakespeare was walking the streets of the town, and he was realizing that he was just talking about what he's seeing. I'm just talking

Baldwin was like, I'm just talking about what I've seen. And that's the connection between these guys over this over the years, and urban guys especially seeing similar things. Um, you know, I definitely take note of that.

Jacob Ming-Trent : Yeah, and and making that that kind of connection, that comparison and showing where there's that that sort of Venn diagram overlap. A lot of times we have these conversations when it relates to the masters or relates to sort of the um the top five dead or alive, if you will, and something that's left from how are these folks similar, what are they doing and how is that similar and how is it less rarefied that you know, you you have to have a skill and and and an appreciation of it, but also it makes it a little bit more accessible, I think, by showing, well, this is the same thing. These are they're doing the same mechanism for their times.

Rob Lee: You probably do it. I mean, it creates new intersec new intersectionality. Uh when you create a new intersectionality, you create new community. You create new communities, you create a new empathy. And then we start we stop seeing ourselves as these, you know, that we're separated by color or by age and but we're more uh connected by what we see collectively, how we feel about that collectively, and how we seek to change those things collectively. I seem to make connection there instead of making connection solely um by uh color or by you know neighborhood. Although I do make connections that way. I do I want to start making these other connections as well. Love it.

Jacob Ming-Trent : So let's let's continue down on the path as we continue our journey. We're going to move into act two, and that is the creative journey. I feel so gauge, I'm doing like a a wild smile as I say this, but um when when I think about the the creative journey, there is a there's always something that's integral that you could put your finger on. So could you

like speak on an integral experience, whether it be in theater or or television, because that's also part of your your background and your your journey as well. Um there's always that that one thing, like that was the thing that you know, is the fork in the road, if you will. I could have went left, but I went right, and that going right, wow, this was crazy, or I should have went left at this point. But what was an integral experience for you?

Rob Lee: You know, I quit the theater. I I've been um I had been acting for a while. I was about thirty five. I was having a lot of success in the theater. But then I quit because I felt like I wasn't being treated like an equal. Um you know, and I I was getting to the age where I couldn't stand I physically couldn't stand it, made me feel physically ill that I was treated like an affirmative action higher. I was treated like I didn't belong. And so I said, I'm I mean, I I you know, I said I can't deal with this and um I went to LA and it had success in LA. I was shooting

I was regular on a couple TV shows, uh some movies, um I was having a great time, and I was never ever, ever going back to the theater. It was like there was no reason the amount of money that the LA was paying me and the amount of like I was that was living a dream. Then the pandemic happened and that you know that went away and and um uh the industry took a lesson and then I I got a call. Um I still wanted to go back to the theater, but I got a call, I had enough money to s you know, chill and and went for the uh skill intelligence to come back to do theater. And then my friend Saheen Ali called me, he was directing a show called Mary Wines, written by Jocelyn Beo, and he invited me to come back as the lead in Shakespeare in the park. Something that I was never going to do. A short, flat,

fat black person was never gonna be the lead of Shakespeare in the park. So he invited me and I said yes. And as much as I was never coming back, I I swore I was gonna come back. I'm glad I did. And because it led me towards the where I am right now. It led me to write how Shakespeare saved my life. because I realized that, I was a part of something bigger, And uh really make a difference. And people have made a difference in my lives and I wanted to see people I want to see people endeavor to make differences um daily in people's lives. I think it's

possible. And um that led me to write this place. It was I don't know if it was a left turn or the right term, but it was definitely the right move with the fork of the road. Um and uh I appreciate that. I'm glad we did that.

Jacob Ming-Trent : Yeah, it's that's just it's just great. Like, you know, I I go back and I think of you know, just opportunities where in doing something that is very, very independent, you know, like I I d I like the notion of not having a boss. I have people I like to work with, I like to do stuff with and you know, a lot of the opportunities I'm seeking out and finding myself, but the one that sticks out is it's always when if I have someone that's like a big wig in radio, and at one point I had like the president of the NPR on and he gassed me up, he was like, You want to broadcasting? Why aren't you

doing broadcasting? And I was just like, Little old me, you know, and well, big old me because I'm six four and like, ah, you're a giant, you know. And it it's one of those things and that gave me 'cause it's always you don't know. You don't know how

these things go, you don't know how they're gonna be received. But having someone who's in the industry in that level above, I'm like, I should keep doing this. And this was during that era, I think it was twenty twenty one, maybe twenty twenty-two, and I'd been, you know, podcasting I'm at seventeen years now that I've been podcasting. So it's kind of one of those things seeing all of the shifts, like, you know, it's like everyone is doing a video podcast and that's now the shift, and it's like that's not really what I do. I like certain elements of that, but I prefer what it used to look like and what it used to be like, and it seems like that shifted. So it's like, am I should I be doing something different? Should I be shifting?

So having folks that are from it and having just really great guests on, those are always those moments. It's like, wow, but that one talking with the president uh at MPR is like, this is this is something right here. I gotta hold on to this one.

Rob Lee: Right, right. You know, he shifted something for you. That's important. You know, you gotta hold on to that. For sure.

Jacob Ming-Trent : Now wanna I wanna talk a little bit about, you know, because I see I see Broadway, obviously television film, so that's just you're you're you're doing all of it. Triple thread, quadruple threat. I don't know how

many threads. Um how how is performing like Shakespeare different from and alike, you know, working in film and in television in a contemporary setting. I you know, you talked a bit earlier, kind of picking up sort of language like earlier, but I know sometimes when going back through school, I'm like, we're beating Shakespeare. It's like, man, I'm trying to try to wrap my mind around these words and I'm not performing it, I'm just reading it. So talk about how

it's like dissimilar and perhaps similar, like in terms of like setting and time, because I seen adaptations. I think of the Leo joint, you know, the Leo Romeo and Julia, for instance. And I'm like, you said, in ninety-five? What do we, you know?

Rob Lee: Right, right, right. I love that movie, by the way. Man, I I skipped school to go see that movie. It's incredible. It was incredible. That was um that was life altering. I mean, next to look, brother, I mean, act good acting is good acting. Yeah. No matter if you're doing Shakespeare, no matter if you're doing I don't know, some other play with matters we're doing um film or T V good acting is a good actor across the board. But one thing about Shakespeare is is it it forces you to use the language in a certain way. Pushes you to lose the language to want the words. The character wants these words. So sometimes they're wrestling for them, sometimes they come to them off top of this flow, sometimes you know, you've gotta pause and think of them and and let them come to you. That is the same way, that's the same thing with hip hop, that's the same way with with television. And if you take that w what Shakespeare is trying to get you, which is a fight for the words, to use the words, to wrestle with the words, if you take that to film and television your performances becomes magnified. You know. You um

you become more layered of a person. When people speak, they think they kind of grab a thought and grab a thought or grab a word. And Shakespeare you do that. But yo, when you see Gazelle, he's doing that too. You know, he had that training. You see me on

the street, she's doing that too, she's had that training. You know, so I I think it it I would the problem with the way it's taught. Everybody thinks, well, you know, this is so weird, it's so out there, this is so so intelligent is small. But it's all just part of the same thing. Um so we start to think about it like this good acting is good acting, then it gets simpler. Yeah.

Jacob Ming-Trent : The and I like that you touched on the the sort of words and the language of it, right? Where, you know, right now I find that words are starting to lose their meaning just contemporarily, and then it's uh I I joke with people, I'm like, man, it's not like you should be on a word count, you know. It's like you're saying

a lot of stuff, but not meaning, it's not really there, but with with with something such as Steak Shakespeare that requires you really to kind of get the words and understand the words and really pay attention to what you're saying and how you're saying it, I think it makes folks lock in a bit more than what we're kind of accustomed to now.

Rob Lee: That's right. That's right. Um and um that that's exactly right. Uh I can't couldn't have said it better myself to be honest. person.

Jacob Ming-Trent : You know, we do live in a time when language the use of language is more free.

Rob Lee: I mean and uh people are it's changing and it will change. Sure. There may be a time we don't use words, we just communicate by thinking. Mm-hmm. That's how it may come. But then I think that um in the theater um way we change me communicate from time to time. But um this time will be important to us. Um show us the power of thought always. Um and words are

just you know, we've had a thought and then the words are just how we encase that thought. That's all it is. You know, so change, but you know, right now we're here where we are. That's good.

Jacob Ming-Trent : We can go into our third act now. this play, it's podcast. It is a podcast. It is a podcast. So we're in act three right now. Um so let's talk about how uh Shakespeare saved my life. Tell us about the play. What is it? What can audience expect? Just kind of give us that uh that soft sell solo boiler plate situation, just so folks can be, you know, up to snuff.

Rob Lee: It's just in my life about a kid who's about a kid who's um he's had a tough childhood, a rough home, uh, for particular reasons, and they discover Shakespeare and it gives voice to all that. It it opens doors for him and uh people treat him a little differently and trying to use it to get through his life, try to use Shakespeare. And it works sometimes

and fails sometimes, uh uh you know, it's awkward with some awkward moments, sometimes the tables hit turn on him and he meets somebody who knows Shakespeare better than him. Um but it's a it's a ride compulsive ride, it's a ruckus ride, it's outrageous, it's funny, it's sad, and in the end we experience some black joy, and in the end we experience forgiveness. So um I I love it. I I love doing it. Um I'm a big component of black joy. Unmarred, unmitigated, uncomplicated black joy. At some point it's gotta show up. So uh I've had to fight for it in my life, but we it definitely shows up.

Jacob Ming-Trent : Just give me a big glass of black joy that I can just I just want it. It's just like, oh man, it's just it's just so good. Does it go well on ice on the rocks? Uh okay.

Rob Lee: That's right, man. You know, that's what my grandmother used to make make uh sweet potato pie, man. That was a piece of black joy.

Jacob Ming-Trent : Um, you know, so there's millions of different ways you can experience it. Experience it all. So why now? Because this is like uh like major playwright and solo performance debut, you know, that's that's what I have now. So why compose the play now? Was it like the right time? Was it just like this is something that's on my spirit and let's let's let's roll with it, let's put it out. Why why now?

Rob Lee: You know, I was I was writing a different thing, and uh I said that I was writing a different thing, and um the people I was writing for didn't want the uh okay, we're sorry. I was writing a different thing, and um these stories started to pour out, and the people I was writing for didn't want that, and they didn't want these new stories. And but I felt

like it was just pouring out me, literally just pouring on me, and I was like, okay, I think there's something here. Let me send it to some some partners that I know see what they think. And I did, and they commissioned it right away. Um, so they paid me money to write it. I was surprised because I didn't know if I wanted to write it, but I was on the hook for it because it took the money. And um I'm really

happy I did. You know, fundamentally it was uh I had to go back to the past to figure out how I should move forward. This play definitely helped me do that. Help me discover what

I was still wrestling with and why I was wrestling with it. So I had to it was great that I got to write it. And uh I'm so happy that the people supported me, did support me 'cause uh it was a tough journey and a lot of work, but um it healed a lot of wounds I have. A lot of wounds. So that's why it was necessary. And then the idea that was necessary for me to put to to heal help heal lose the people had if I could. Um so it's been great in that way.

Jacob Ming-Trent : It's great. It just just it's it's the power of connection, the power of art, the power of just people being in a room together, because I know that they're you know, there's some interactive stuff, which is sort of part of the theme of my my next question, and you you use the word raucous. I'm I'm gonna use I'm gonna say raw because you said raw because I I say raw because you know, hip hop, you know, because

Rob Lee: raw uh as a descriptor used earlier to describe the the play a bit and the play has a lot of interactive elements, uh call and response, uh casting audience members into particular roles, key roles, bringing them into your your younger life. How do you balance those interactive elements within your your storytelling? I I I I asked that because for for me sometimes like I get thrown off. I'm I'm running like a tight shift. I'm like, yeah, I got

these questions, let me work my thing, and then you just have like questions from the audience, and like, ooh, our podcasts are different, you know, this is a different element. This is an away game. You're Right. This is, Um originally as George Shakespeare's time there was more audience participation. Yeah. Um, so that's one thing.

My first bit of storytelling I have experienced was the church. The church, there's audience participation. Um so you know, it it it's just honest participation is not new, it was the original thing. You kind of took it out of theatre. Um, honest participation is the natural state of theater. And even more today, because you know, w we can go on and watch Hulu and sit in our pyjamas and and um hip hop and pause and go to the bathroom and come back. But we can do things

in theater that Hulu can't do. You we can somebody say something to me on this, I could acknowledge them in the audience. Somebody says something to me, you know, that makes me think I can think. Um people are people are are experiencing it in live in time, and each night is fairly different because of that. Because of that, they get deeper experience because of that, and um it's not church, but it's church like that you can feel like you got a message and you can actually do something with that message if you want to.

Jacob Ming-Trent : That that makes it living and breathing, um that not automated in the sense of, you know, I like this song, I'm gonna hear it in this way each time. It's like, yo, I want to hear the live version. I want to hit a

version where we had uh the people singing along to it that you know it's it's living and breathing. That that the the Pittsburgh audience, see, shout out to you. The Pittsburgh audience was a bit hyper than the New York audience or the Baltimore audience really chimed in with their accents, and that really works for that. And and one of the things I like in the way you're describing it, it reminds me of so I watch I've watched wrestling for a long time, professional wrestling, right? And you know, you watch the WWE Raw, and that's one sort of setup, it's very scripted, it's very specific. But every now and again

on the TV product, they do that sort of raw after WrestleMania. Audience is on fire, it's interactive. You can see that the folks are trying to stay in character, but they can't help it but acknowledge the crowd, much like the um the independent shows. It's just like you might have the audience involved in it and it just makes it uh i i i i in in uh interactive and a living, breathing experience. It just hits in a different way.

Rob Lee: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And it's it's we're there together. We don't have to br we let's pretend like we're not there together. We are there together. And um being together nowadays is very important. Being together nowadays it means something.

Jacob Ming-Trent : Yes, one hundred percent. I gotta I gotta know this, like, you know, how do you know if someone's gonna be a a good like temporary cast member? Like, is it the engagement you're like kinda like looking out like all right, he's he's nodding a lot or she's got on a good fit. Is it is it close? She's like dressed real nice, it's like, you know what? I think she could be cast as this person.

Rob Lee: I know.

Jacob Ming-Trent : I never know. And it's different here in DC, the people respond differently. I mean, in I when I was in Berkeley, I would bring somebody up on stage and they would just stand there and just be polite and uh I don't know the people here, they wanna like interact with me, they wanna they wanna move and they wanna they wanna do things, you know. So that's that I've been getting used to that and uh I'm I'm I'm learning to play along with that. It feels like it's gonna be different every night. So that's great. Hey, you know, it's different for me, it's different for them, they're gonna throw me off, they're gonna make me it keeps me alive, you know. I gotta pay attention. But

yeah, the people in DC that have been acting in the show are very different than people in Berkeley. Yeah, sure. Shout out to Folger Theatre.

Yeah. Um this this is sort of the last like like real question for for for this act three before we move into act four. What's next? Um for the play. I

I know it's um as we're recording now, we we we just opened, so what's next? Um for the show, what's after, talk a bit about sort of the run, things of that nature, and we'll definitely revisit that as we close out, but sort of like what's next in in mind.

Rob Lee: Well, we'll be going well after you've done with the Folger, um, the show and I will be going to New York, um, to play uh the public theater, uh, Red Bull producing and um we'll be there just you know uh shopping up in New York, getting rally. Um I mean it's different because I've been living in New York for thirty years, so the people there kind of know me, you know. Um, so they know it c they kinda know what to expect, but this is different. They they're gonna get some different things, they don't know the background story. So it's kind of interesting. It's interesting is to have people come that know you, know your work, but they don't know where you come from, and don't know how you got here. So that'll be interesting. Uh then we go from

there and we go to Pittsburgh PA. Um, which I think it'll be a different guy. People that know me as a child but don't know me as a man and uh uh so that'll be that'll be interesting. Um we're we're I mean, one thing about doing this play is I really feel this way. If it makes it worth it traveling across the country is that I I wrote this because I wanted to my life was saved by theater and I wanted to save a life. And I get opportun a lot of opportunities to do that. And um sometimes people reach out to me and they say, you know, I I needed to hear that. I'm like, thank you. That's

what I'm doing it for. I mean, really this that's that's the only reason to do it. It's because you might help somebody. And so I get to

go to all these different towns and help people, people reach out and they want to have coffee and they wanna tell me about the children and about you know their life. I met this this white lady, she was really cool, but she has a biggie uh wallpaper. And I don't know when you get baby wallpaper bad. But she's got it. And that's tremendous. So I'm I'm just loving that I get to connect with all these people. I get to put some new ideas in their head and save a few lives, and then people also get to put some new ideas in my head. And as I go on as a writer, uh uh that'll fuel me.

Jacob Ming-Trent : Yeah, it it's it that's that's beautiful and it's it's something about going on the road, if you will, like when I stepped from outside of uh just doing my online piece and doing these virtual and just trying to make an effort to do more in person and travel and do interviews in different cities outside of that, almost pe treating it like a not a world tour, like a regional tour, but budget's a little light, you know, but treating in that way, it just you you connect and as you touched on with the ideas, you're having different experiences, different ideas, and I just feel like that's growth right there and it just carries on and it's an energy that's there.

Rob Lee: That's right, man. I mean, look the original actors, that's what they did. They didn't have homes, theater homes. that's a, that's a later idea. They had they travel on the roads, the character, their their sets and the scripts, the costumes with them. They knocked on doors of

the shows for small farm communities. I mean, that's that is the heart that is the basis for what we do. So I think I said this to all artists. Ours to you, you do

it already, but to everybody. Go out, get out of your comfort zone and go to the people. Go to them. The people that can't come to you, go to them. And I promise you, you'll discover something when you get there.

Jacob Ming-Trent : Well said. that's true. Yeah. Oh yeah. Um, and I I want to ask this, and this this would actually be the real last like real question that I'll go into that act for. Um just like, you know, you you were touching on DC and it's kicking off in DC or what have you. Like, what was your relationship with sort of DC and Folders pri pri probably um prior to to coming here? Like, what was your sort of experience just creating or working or visiting here, like for for DC to be where things kick off. Talk a bit about that.

Rob Lee: Well, a few years ago, I was three years ago, something like that. Um, I got a call from Karen Ann Daniels, and she wanted me to do Midstumir Night's Dream. I didn't know her. I didn't know her theater. But the future is also

taken. if I give it a shot, and I mean uh I made such a relationship with Karen and that really loved her. She's artistic director and she's a friend, and um so I came down to DC, and then I discovered all these amazing the theater community. It's an amazing theater community. It's one of the only growing theater communities in the country, and I fell in love with that. So I'm always looking for opportunities to come back. I've stayed in touch with some of the great artists here, and I look let me start off. I'm not saying that just to just uh you know, just to get out of here. look, DC is one of

the better theater towns in the country. It just has doubt is so um I've always find reasons to come back and support me. Came out of the opening night. I mean, All these artists and they came out and supported me, and then I tried to support them and went out to dinner and went together after the show and just shopped it up, you know, writers writing to television and writing the theater and people starting their own theaters. So it's a pleasure to be here. It it truly is a pleasure to be here.

Jacob Ming-Trent : That's great. Wait, wait, wait a lay it on there, Jacob. No. That's that's that's great. It it's it's great to be in community, you know, one to the people, but also to the people that are contemporaries, that are you know, people that you may look up to, people that you may are maybe inspiring. It's just it it's something about it as you were touching on it. Used to be like this, just being in the company of other creatives. It's like you gotta get back to it.

Rob Lee: So friends, That's correct.

Jacob Ming-Trent : man, So um let's move into um act four. And act four, it's also known as the rapid fire section. And the my rapid fire questions are really quick questions. You don't want to overthink these, but these add a little extra insight to the to the guests. And the first one is music related, because you know you mentioned Biggie and Pac earlier, so I gotta ask, what are three songs that are currently on your playlist? It's music related, maybe it's biggie, maybe it's Pac, but what are three songs that you're you've recently listened to? Yes.

Rob Lee: By Stevie Wonder. Um listening to a lot of press. A lot of things.

Jacob Ming-Trent : That's wonderful. He really I like and um I've been listening to um the song called Don't Give Up On Me. It's an older tune. Um and sewing into a show that I'm writing now. It's a beautiful, beautiful song.

But yeah, I've been listening to those things. Good, good. Um, here's the next one.

You you mean you mentioned like, you know, these folks might ask you to go out for coffee and so on, and I'm a coffee connoisseur, as folks have been well documented on. At one point I had a coffee named after me, two different coffees named after me. How do you take your coffee?

Rob Lee: I took my coffee with Like Sydney Pourtier Black. Um I don't I don't I don't want to get no cream, no sugar. Um but recently I uh you know, because of the doctor told me I had to give up on cafe, so I I take it a DCAP.

Jacob Ming-Trent : but I used I I used to go to coffee shops and I would troll the barista depending on uh maybe if they were cool or uh for whatever reason I would order it the color of different civil rights leaders and they would laugh at me so much. I was like, Yeah, I'm

gonna I wanna get this like how much cream do you want? I was like, Yeah, I'm looking at more of a Malcolm X, so it's a fair amount of It's like I get it, that's good, that's a good one. I was like only for black history, my bamboo go back to regular factory settings in March.

Rob Lee: I've I learned that from somebody else, and so another brother used to another brother who was older than me used to order this coffee based on uh uh character skin color, so very funny. I love you.

Jacob Ming-Trent : Um, so going back, this this is uh like early on. I read that you kinda audition and booked your first play at a very young age. I I have eleven in

here for some reason. But yeah, I have like a super young age that you booked and you auditioned and booked your first play. Um what was that play and you know, how would you summarize the experience, like maybe in one word, like what was the play and one word uh summary of the experience?

Rob Lee: It was Big River and it was monumental experience.

Jacob Ming-Trent : So you yeah, I like that. You know, you kinda kinda really worked on the fly. You're you're you're a play. Yeah, I I think I think all right, here's the last one I got for you of the rapid fire before we move into uh act five. So, you know, let's let's uh let's bring these Shakespeare characters into real life. Um if you were in a jam, like you're in a spot. Who what Shakespeare character do you think could get you out of it? Like who would you ask for help? Like, yo, I gotta go on the phone, they need a lifeline, who are you calling? False. that, uh, good.

Rob Lee: Definitely tall stuff. It's also, it's very creative. We'll do anything. Outside of the box. He's a lot of fun. He loves to drink, he loves women, he loves food. I think we can get along.

Jacob Ming-Trent : So get me out of this situation, static.

Rob Lee: Exactly. You know.

Jacob Ming-Trent : That's great. Um Rapid Fire. And um so now we're gonna move back into sort of the final business of this uh conversation for us, the uh stage advice. Um this is j this is i i I I like when when people share their insights, but I think it's always a little like, you know, um cookie cutter at times. So I always try to let go a little bit deeper. So in this one, how um so creating how Shakespeare saved my life required you to be like pretty vulnerable, right? You're you're telling your your story, exposing rejection, tragedy, your your search for for home and is is in there. What would you say to a performing artist who has like a personal story to tell but is kind of afraid or reticent in going there and like really revealing it, but they know they have a story to tell that could save a life or save their own life.

Rob Lee: Um, but They're afraid to tell it. Yeah. Fear is a good thing. You know, if you're afraid to tell it, then that means you have to see it. You can find ways to

protect yourself along the way. But it's bringing up things for you that it's gonna bring up things for somebody else. And so you want to go not only do you want to tell it, but oddly enough, I'm gonna tell you that you want to go deeper. Um because your fear is telling you to go deeper. So you're gonna uncover something that you didn't expect to uncover. And there is the treasure. You know, That's great.

Jacob Ming-Trent : It's very sage-like. It's very advice-like.

Rob Lee: So thank you for that. You Well, you know what I mean. Look, when I start telling this, I wasn't I didn't know where I was gonna go. There's a riot. You, you don't know You don't know where you're gonna go. And you're dealing with somebody something that is um you're dealing with something that's in the subconscious. Um when it starts to come forward. You're like, oh my god,

I didn't know why we're dealing with this. And you know, like, okay, uh, this is gonna be very personal. Um I have to find a w how to tell it. And uh it's the, how you tell it that could help that just protect you. For instance, my dad came back to visit me after he had died, and uh that's in the play. And um I didn't know how I could tell in the way that people understand it, but my dad my dad coming back to me with a realization that there was more. And uh I felt safe when he came back to it. Safer in ways that I didn't realize. So anyway, uh I I kind of think uh I think being a writer is being brave. Uh, you're sitting alone in the dark and you're writing and um but you're not alone.

Jacob Ming-Trent : So um I think I think that's where we can end it. That was um beautiful. Thank you. And uh there's two things I want to do as we close out here. One, I want to thank you so much for coming on. This has been like a highlight of my day. So this has been a lot of fun. And uh thank you so much for being a part of the this this podcast. And and two, I want to invite and encourage for you to share with the listeners any final um thoughts, any final asks, anything about the play, anything about um where to follow you or where to check out the play, anything along those lines. Pretty much it's a shameless plug. So the floor is yours.

Rob Lee: Or shameful plug, if you will. It is. So, You just come and see the players disposier and uh run till July 5th. Um 11 having a great time. And if you don't, you know, you can't make it uh there, you can make it to New York, or you can pick it up uh Bloomsbury Publishing uh is published and um it's available you can read there, it's not expensive, and uh we have great cover art. Please listen. Sounds good.

Jacob Ming-Trent : Yeah, I'm looking at the cover art right now because it's fire.

Rob Lee: Hey guys, Rob Lee here, and I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Jacob Ming Trent,

Jacob Ming-Trent : whose uh play, How Shakespeare Saved My Life is running until July 5th, that's a Sunday, at the Folger Theater. That's 201 East Capitol Street, southeast of Washington, DC, and tickets are starting at 20 bucks. So be able to head over there, check it out, see Jacob, maybe be on stage with Jacob, maybe perform with Jacob. Um, but definitely a great conversation and worth your time and attention, and that is how Shakespeare Saved My Life running until July 5th at Folger Theater 201 East Capitol Street Southeast in Washington, DC. And there you have it, folks. I want to again thank Jacob Ming Trent for coming on to the Truth and His Art, sharing a bit of his story and letting us know the skinny behind his play, How Shakespeare Saved My Life. And for Jacob, I am

Rob Lee, Sand of Dare's Art, Culture, and Community. In and around German Neck of the Woods, you just have to look for it.