Welcome to the Truth in his Art. I am your host, Rob Lee. Thank you for tuning in to my conversations at the intersection of arts, culture, and community. And before we get into the introduction, a little housekeeping. One, thank you all for subscribing, reviewing, leaving comments.
Rob Lee:Continue to do so, continue to help spread the word. You know, independent creators, we're out here. We're putting in work, interviews, and really for this particular podcast, helping to amplify the voices of folks that always don't get that. They get that opportunity. So, yeah, you know, this is a joint effort.
Rob Lee:This is community effort. So any support, in terms of helping to get the word out there is always, always appreciated. And in terms of appreciation, I wanna again thank the Robert w Deutsch Foundation for helping to, sponsor this season. Obviously, podcasts aren't free, so getting the support from the, the Robert w. Deutsch Foundation, helping us with production costs and things of that nature for the podcast is truly a blessing and really a big, big piece of support.
Rob Lee:So that's kind of that. So thank you. And without much further ado, let's go into the introduction. My next guest is an artist and educator originally from Virginia, Richmond to be exact, and he is currently based in Atlanta, Georgia. His work is in mixed media and printmaking, and it explores the intersection of culture, identity, and blackness.
Rob Lee:Please welcome Jamal Barber. Welcome to the podcast. Alright.
Jamaal Barber:Hey. What's going on, man?
Rob Lee:Appreciate you, man, for coming on, man. Oh, for sure. And, again, I always have to say this. Right? When if folks go through any of these episodes, right, and they have the visual component now, I've been better about having a visual.
Rob Lee:Whenever there's another guest well, it's another whenever there's a guest on and they have glasses on, I must compliment the pride, nature. You know, we're here with the spectacle. We're out.
Jamaal Barber:Yeah, man. We gotta see, man. That's it's super important.
Rob Lee:I'm just gonna start going to podcast and no glasses on in my outfit. Just me squinting for an hour. Yeah. So before we get into, like, the the main crux of the the conversation and and and do the podcast thing, I I wanna give you sort of the space. I did a very, like, sort of surface level, you know, an amalgamation of stuff off of line and and and so on about sort of your background.
Rob Lee:But I find that often something is is missed, often something is left out or something that doesn't quite do the guest justice. So I wanna give you the space to introduce yourself and tell us a bit about your work.
Jamaal Barber:Oh, man. This is always like a big broad question. They're like, yo. Introduce yourself. Like, tell them everything about you in the next minute and a half.
Jamaal Barber:Well, you
Rob Lee:you have you got, like, 40 minutes. You if you just wanna say, look. This is me stainless self promotion. This is Jay. This is what we're doing.
Rob Lee:You can run a podcast while I can. Go ahead. You got it.
Jamaal Barber:No. We ain't gonna do that to you. I ain't gonna do that to you. Alright. So so, Jamal Barber, you know, born in Richmond, grew up in North Carolina.
Jamaal Barber:Now I've been living in Atlanta for the last 20 some years. So it's, you know, a southern boy, like, doing my thing. And, yeah, I kinda take all that and then experience that the whole, rural South, kind of experience to the, you know, big city, quote unquote, in in Atlanta. And kinda to put all that experience into my artwork, man. So my art is all about me.
Jamaal Barber:Like, I tell all my students all the time, like, your artwork, the whatever you do is the tool, but the artwork is really about you. So, like, yeah, I do woodcuts and printmaking and, you know, mixed media paintings, a little bit of sculpture, a little bit of this, a little bit of that. But, you know, it's mostly about me telling my story and honoring the people that I grew up with that made me who I am. And in in some part, given that message of blackness, continuing that cycle, and relaying the history the way we always do. You know?
Jamaal Barber:So that's that's that's how I see myself.
Rob Lee:So you can take that long, man. You got it. You you know, man. You know, it's like you said it before. So I got I got, like, 2 little follow ups in that that vein, and and one, goes a little something like this.
Rob Lee:So, like so to talk a bit about, you know, that your your upbringing and how, you know, some of that plays. Like, if there's a specific example of something that comes to mind and you're like, that absolutely shows up, that absolutely informs my work. And I'll give this as an example because I think it's this is this is how I communicate, I suppose, where when someone is just like, man, why do you ask questions like this? Where do these questions come from? It's like, I'm a curious dude.
Rob Lee:I'm sure I was terrible as a kid, always with the wise, always with the how does this get made? But having an interest in a lot of different things. So in the curation process and the the conversation, I make these connections that, you know, a guest may not not see and then suddenly that's the connection they have in their head just because of the way that I think. And that's been how it's been for me since I was a kid of like, oh, yeah, this comic is connected to this thing and this is why. So for you as it relates to your your work and the themes within it, are, you know, there are any examples that come to mind you're like, no.
Rob Lee:This absolutely I definitely worked on this, and this is connected to something from my youth.
Jamaal Barber:I I think a lot of it is more the general experience of growing up in, like, the South, in the rural South, like Littleton, North Carolina. Like, not a lot of people, not a lot of stuff going on. But then the more you start to understand the world and more you do research, I read, autobiography autobiography of Malcolm x. I read, like, hey, you know, edit a lot of stuff along that line, discovering the artists, that I know and love like Romare Bearden. And and then applying that context to my life and then realize, like, all the stuff that I used to do, where we live at, how we segregated, went to a mostly black school, and there was a companion, mostly white school to go along with it.
Jamaal Barber:All of that stuff has an explanation. It has a reason. And part of that is I always say that we as people are just kind of rocks thrown into a river. Like, when you're born, the world is already moving. Everything is already taking shape.
Jamaal Barber:So when I go somewhere, it's not that, you know, this school was a 95% black school, and they had a companion 95% white school to go along with it in the same county. That's not a coincidence. Like, that is that would that happened to me. Like, in in part of, like, understanding that life and understanding, like all the things that came before us make us who we are and can and sort of determine what our choices are. You can break free.
Jamaal Barber:It's not call it. It's not fate. Right? That's not what I'm saying. You're not locked into these, this certain circumstance, but you are born into a circumstance and then you have to wrestle with it.
Jamaal Barber:And so part of that in in just realizing how much stuff that I thought was normal was not normal. You know what I'm saying? Like, when when you go to go off to college and you, like, you get a a roommate. And then a roommate be, like, yo, at my prom, they gave away cars.
Rob Lee:Wait. What?
Jamaal Barber:Exactly. That that's what I'm saying. So it's like, yo, they would never give away a car at my prom. They were giving away It's not people who don't know. Yeah.
Jamaal Barber:So when you hear these stories, like, no. These people had a completely different existence than I did. Like my, you know, 18, 19 years at the time is nothing like theirs. Why? And so that that sort of question about how do we get here?
Jamaal Barber:How did I how did I get into this place? How did my grandmother end up where she ended up? Like, how does how does these people control so much of this county? Like, all those questions, kinda started my exploration into it. And so if you're gonna make something about it, like, I can't I try to, and it never works to make things that I think other people would like, and that never works.
Jamaal Barber:And so, eventually, I always come back to myself and, like, yo, what what does Jamal wanna say when I sit down and disable? And then that's where the art comes
Rob Lee:from. So in that, you know, it's a good segue. It's just if you've got the questions and you've done a podcast on your own before. But how how did you become interested in in in art? And what was that sort of first foray into a creative pursuit?
Rob Lee:As I touched on before we got started, mines was illustration, comics trying to do that. And now I'm at this stage, and this goes into the personality in this stage where I'm, in some ways, fighting for legitimacy of this is a creative medium. This is artistic medium versus just, as you were saying before we got started, somebody else should be doing podcast. You know what
Jamaal Barber:I mean?
Rob Lee:Yeah. So trying to really think of the figures there. So what was your first foray into something, like, creative or that those those that early moan when you're like, I'm gonna be an artist. I'm I'm gonna do something artistic.
Jamaal Barber:I I think it was less, I'm a be an artist, just simply because, like, the way I grew up, there was never really an option for you to do. Like, you know, like, you know, this is Littleton, North Carolina, man. I like, if I'm finna move somewhere, go buy me some land, get me a little job, You know, I'm a I'm a chill and have cookouts on the weekend. I'm a make me a porch. You know what I'm saying?
Jamaal Barber:I'm a put a shed in the backyard. You know? Like, that's that's what I'm thinking, like, growing up because that's what people around me do. That's what we do. Yeah.
Jamaal Barber:Right? That we we in the community, everybody that I know, like, you try to get you some land. You get you a double y. Put it on that thing, and and then you live your life like that. So one, that was it was never an option for me to be an artist, but I knew I liked art when I saw my dad had me and my mom a birthday card one day.
Jamaal Barber:And I I don't know. But some about it, I looked at it, and it was like, yo. You made this and like something about it was kind of like, wow, like you like this stuff. Somebody makes the things that we like. And so even though, like, I started to read look at kids' books, and then I started noticing who the artist were and the books that I like.
Jamaal Barber:And, like, so it kinda picked up from there just the idea of, like, no. There was nothing. And then you made something. Mhmm. And that feeling is what I what I always chase.
Jamaal Barber:Like, that's what that's what that's that's the high. You know what I'm saying? Like, when people, you know, being, talk about heroin, that first high you get. It's like the first high is always the best because, like, I made this thing. Nobody can take it from me despite, like, how chaotic my upbringing is, you know, whatever's going on in my life, how much money we have or don't have.
Jamaal Barber:I created this thing, and you can't take that from me. Like, so when I get, sketchbook, it belongs to me. It's mine. Like, I get to make and shape this world. And something about that has power.
Jamaal Barber:And I'm attracted to the idea of that. And then I connected it somehow along the way, just reading who I like to read and seeing what I like to like. And I I I related it, that idea of power, to my creations and the release of it. And so I don't know exactly when that happened, but somewhere along the way, it became a thing where it's like, yeah, I used to do comic books. I wanted to make comic books.
Jamaal Barber:It's not, it won't just, I read them. I wanted to draw a comic books. You know what I'm saying? It's like, you know, like, sorry, reading, like, no, I want to be a writer. I want to illustrate the thing.
Jamaal Barber:Like all of it is I wanna get down to the origin. I wanna be the one responsible for you to now have that experience of picking up this thing and reading it or looking at it and gazing. Like, I gave you that feeling. That feeling came from me. So part of it is, like, that connection to I don't know.
Jamaal Barber:That that original kind of sin of of making stuff, man. No.
Rob Lee:No. No. I I hear you because it's it's this thing where it's like, I wanna put this out there, and you're always chasing a dragon. I mean, you said it was, you know, like, a beehive there. But, you know, it's one of those things where, like, I still have my art bag from when I was growing up.
Rob Lee:You know, my colored pencils in there, they're all brittle, they're all destroyed. Some of my original drawings, the comic books, the source materials, the art books from 1990, you know, and that's always going to be a part of me creatively. And maybe I go back into it or explore it sort of in a different way. And but I always look at that fondly as this was the first time to your point of I want to put something out there. I want to dove into and find out like, all right, who's the person that did this?
Rob Lee:Who's the person that drew this? This person that wrote this and how can I do what they're doing because I'm getting so much joy and so much out of it? And it's something about it, and and even putting these out there, like, you know, I I still get giddy at times of, like, I can't wait for somebody to hear this episode, man. You know, I'm gonna kill them on this one. Yeah.
Rob Lee:Or or even the the nerves of even going into a conversation. As as I said before we got started, this is a lot like creative blind dates. You don't know if the person is super shy. You don't know if the person kinda hates you and still wants to do the interview for whatever reason. I don't know why that happens, or, you know, you don't know if it's just like it just doesn't click.
Rob Lee:And, you know, and then the other time is when you find out that, oh, wow. No. This person is really cool. I didn't get a lot from the, you know, the bio from this person that, you know, gave me sort of this inclination. But upon talking, it's just like, I don't even have to look at my questions.
Rob Lee:We're just free jazz, and we're improvising here. Yeah. And it's something about that. So I wanna move into this this question because you you touched on it, and I definitely wanna dive in it a little bit deeper. So you said, Romare Bearden, right?
Rob Lee:So Yep. Talk a bit about some of your influences, you know, include Romare Bearden there, but sort of how you first became aware of them because that's that's the thing. Like, when I look at this podcasting, I can always look back at, maybe, talk radio. But as far as podcasting as a thing, I can easily point back. It's not that long ago, but point back to 2,007, 2008, listening to Kevin Smith on Smodcast talk about using it as a tool to keep his friendships together.
Rob Lee:That's it's always connected in that way. We're getting older. We don't hang out as much. Hey, man. Let's just have the scheduled time to just kinda, like, shoot the s and talk about movies and stuff like that.
Rob Lee:That's the entry point for me. That's how I became aware of this sort of genre and someone that's, in some ways, guided me through this medium. So for you?
Jamaal Barber:I think, it starts for me with Robert Baring because, you know, the like I said, I always connected power to creation. Mhmm. And so I always was looking for what to create that had meaning. Right? Like, in in in a lot of ways, doing the discovery of me and my relationship to blackness and, like, you know, understanding the world through that lens, I wanted my art to reflect that.
Jamaal Barber:And I knew I didn't see it in, like, Spider Man. I was a big Spider Man guy. But Mark Bagley is who drew Spider Man, like, the on my run, Amazing Spider Man. He wasn't black. He's not telling the black experience.
Jamaal Barber:So I know a part of that was always me. I knew I wanted that thing. And so when I found the book of Romare Bearden at the library, I think it opened my eyes to be like, this is what blackness looks like. Right? Like the the collage, the texture, the movement, the kind of, embellishment of faces and stuff like that.
Jamaal Barber:Like all of this thing, this texture is what blackness looks like and feels like. And he was the first artist that I looked at his art, and I felt a deep connection with it. Not just, I like it. Like, you would like a lot of stuff. Like, my grandma had, my man Kevin Williams, whack.
Jamaal Barber:He's a big time artist and dude sells all these prints. I've seen his print in my grandma's bathroom, the walk with walk with God one. And, like, yo, it's it's nice. Like, it means something to her. Like, I like it, but I didn't connect with it in that way.
Jamaal Barber:But seeing Romare Bearden, I I knew, like, this is it. This means something to me. And so that is kind of the beginning of that's the feeling that I want people to have when I look at me. Right? That's what that's what if I'm gonna spend so much time making this thing, I want I want to give somebody that feeling because to me, that is the expression of humanity.
Jamaal Barber:Right? He's explaining something more about life, about his life, about the people he knew, about the Harlem, the neighborhood, the Mecklenburg County, like, all the things that he described in his artwork. He put it in there. You can feel and you can see it. I don't know Omar.
Jamaal Barber:Never got a chance to meet him. Like, he passed away a long time ago.
Rob Lee:Yeah.
Jamaal Barber:But through his artwork, he gave me a world and an understanding of who he was. And I think that's what I connect with, like, the most. And so, ultimately, that's what I'm chasing. Right? And I'm always looking for people that give me that feeling.
Jamaal Barber:Like, I love art, period. Yeah. But it's certain things that, like, stand out and mean something to you. And so that's what I'm always working for.
Rob Lee:When you mentioned Mecklenburg County. I started small. That's where my family's from originally. My grandmother is. They're like, ew.
Rob Lee:We're out here. So and thank you. Thank you for that. That's, and and, actually, you've you've done me a solid. You've actually answered one of my later questions, so shout out to you, you know, helping a brother out here.
Jamaal Barber:I'll just be talking, man. I give away all the whole format.
Rob Lee:So tell me tell me a story about sort of like a challenging piece of work that that you you worked on, like, what you were exploring, sort of the the scope of the work, why was it challenging, or maybe you're just one of those people that's never had anything that was challenging. Like, it's all easy. You know, it was smooth. No issues with the work drying. No issues with it keeping its its shape.
Rob Lee:Everything was smooth.
Jamaal Barber:Oh, no. It's it's always problems. This is this is printmaking. I I just taught, class out at Penland. Shout out to Penland School of Craft Hill.
Jamaal Barber:It's a great place if you ever get a chance to go out there. But I was telling my students, like, yeah. Half of printmaking is solving problems, and then the other half is solving the problems because you have more problems. 1st, you solve problems to get started to print, but then you have to solve the problem of finishing the print. And so it's the whole thing is, like, a big complicated mess.
Jamaal Barber:And it's always like, no matter how many prints I've done, it feels like it's easy to some people, but I still have the same creative cycle. And for me, that that's how I know I'm making good work is that I know I can feel it. Like, in my body, I started to know, like, what it feels like when I like something, when I'm being a little hesitant on it, when I started doing other things, when I'm getting anxious, then I get euphoric. And then I think I could conquer the world. Man, I think, I'm the worst artist in the universe.
Jamaal Barber:And then it's like, oh, I just need to finish this. And then somewhere along the line, I'm finished, and I can pick myself back up. I literally have that cycle every single time I do anything. And so every print is hard, and it looks effortless when people see me do it. I carve fast.
Jamaal Barber:I print like I know what I'm doing, but, like, every every time it's, like, yo, I don't know if this gonna work. Like and I like that feeling though because that that to me, that's part of, like, it activates a part of your brain. You know what I'm saying? Like, there's certain things that you do. Like, yeah.
Jamaal Barber:I'll watch, you know, just watch the reality TV don't mean nothing. Like, you know, you don't even have to really think. But don't not to activate my brain, like, trying to figure out how to bring this thing to life. Like, I feel like I'm wrestling with it, like a back and forth. Like, it's trying to become something else, and I'm trying to make it do this thing.
Jamaal Barber:And then we kinda negotiate a little balance. I had this one piece I did, called A Place For Me. It was after Broomare Britton, actually. I reimagined one of his prints, like, as a farmer. And And so I carved his big face, and I started this is when I first started doing mixed media work.
Jamaal Barber:And, I did this big panel, 6 foot by 4 foot panel. I had it laying in the floor because it wouldn't fit nowhere else. And I was just messing with it, putting going back and forth. Like, I don't know about this. That changed the colors, like, maybe it need to be brighter.
Jamaal Barber:I don't know about this. Like, I'm the whole time I'm putting it together, I'm going in. It's like, man. This this way, this might be a bomb. Like, I don't know what I was thinking when I made this one.
Jamaal Barber:But then somewhere along the line, it's like you can see it, and I can see it's a moment where the person, I do a lot of figures. It's a moment where the person feels alive. Yeah. Like, they weren't alive, and then I don't know what I did. But now I feel like I'm with somebody in the room.
Jamaal Barber:Like, it's not just me, you know, making art. Like, I'm actually having a conversation. I'm, like, studying people faces. You know what I'm saying? Like, when you're making something, especially when you carve it and every single mark has to be made or not made.
Jamaal Barber:Everything has to be considered. And so when I'm making a face, especially, like, I'm thinking about the the roundness of their cheek and and how their nose protrudes. Like, if it doesn't feel like this, does it look like they can breathe? Like, it's it's that type of thing. So I'm I'm always having that conversation, and I always feel like I'm making things that are beyond me, like, beyond my capabilities.
Jamaal Barber:And I like that because I gotta figure it out. Like, I gotta be good enough to to make this thing, to represent this person, to to share this message. I gotta be good enough to do it. So I'm always pushing to be good enough, in my mind. And I'm I've never reached a level where where it feels like it's easy or it feels like like it just happened.
Jamaal Barber:Like, no, it never just happens. Like, it's always a fight even to this day.
Rob Lee:Yes. It's it's pushing boundaries. It's sort of not really being satisfied, and and I relate to it. And it's it's a question I have I definitely wanna include in this this sort of portion we're talking about here where, you know, I'm not just only interviewing these types of artists or these types of guests. I'm trying to like diversify it to stretch sort of my boundaries are and what they might look like and try to do it with it's I, you know, I do the workout thing.
Rob Lee:Right? And they talk about progressive overloading and things of that nature, how to keep it interesting. I call it FRM find out. That's what I call. And it's a version of that in here.
Rob Lee:It's not like, you know, just trying to do the same interview. And sometimes you might recycle questions. You might be interested in I wonder what this person has to say with regard to this question. But trying to make everything unique and it's a challenge, it's hard. It's you will be received and things of that nature.
Rob Lee:Will they kind of get where I'm coming from? And the making making it a challenge because it matters, because it shouldn't just be, I just gotta make this output, keeping it moving, can't do it that way. You have to make it as the intent is creative. So could you speak on sort of exploring and experimenting with new techniques, new practices, new ways of doing things that may feel familiar? And when do you kinda include and accept sort of maybe a new practice or new technique within your your your flow?
Rob Lee:Or when do you know, like, I'm gonna abandon this. I don't think this works. I think this is out.
Jamaal Barber:I I think it's I think it's a matter of having enough stuff going on that I don't think about it too much. Because I think part of it is, like, you know, you can get in your own head and you can psych yourself out of making something really great if you if you think about it too much. Like, you know, if you if, you know, and I get a piece of wood in front of me, like it's more or less like, can I even do this thing? Like, I know I did it that time. Like, I did it that time, but that might have been a fluke.
Jamaal Barber:You know what I'm saying? Like, I don't know if I'm really equipped to do this. I might actually not know what I'm doing.
Rob Lee:I might be
Jamaal Barber:doing that. Lucky. Yeah.
Rob Lee:And so it's I don't know. It's a
Jamaal Barber:little bit of imposter syndrome. It's a it's a deep insecurity. I know for sure. I I recognize that about myself. Like, it's a it's a it's a thing that keeps calling me to make something that justifies all the time and effort I put into it and the money.
Jamaal Barber:And like somehow this thing has to be special, but nothing is ever really special enough. That's that's things that other people make are special. Right? But because I know and I'm so attached to the journey of making it, I know somewhere along the way, out of the 100 decisions I made to get it to be this piece, probably one of them was wrong.
Rob Lee:Right?
Jamaal Barber:I could I should have done something else. And that's just me not being good enough to recognize it is the reason why this piece looks like that. Even though it's a great piece, it could be fine. Like, people can like it, but I'm so attached to the making, the process to figuring it out that I don't it's hard for me to look at my work and see the finished thing. Right?
Jamaal Barber:I remember making the mark. And when, when my tools slipped and I made a little patch, I ain't gonna tell other people. Right. I ain't gonna tell you it's messed up.
Rob Lee:Like like, I noticed that thing right there where That's a dumb idea.
Jamaal Barber:I meant to do it. That's why that's why I've mastered that part of it. I meant to do everything everything you see. You know
Rob Lee:the stick. Exactly. Yeah. No. Team are like, oh, they know this.
Rob Lee:Like, no. Oh, I
Jamaal Barber:shouldn't have done that color. That's I think of that all the time. But but, you know, that I think that's part of it too. And, like, part of it is, like, you know, how much is it is just me being deeply insecure and and unsure about what I'm doing? I mean, I'm still I've even said it before.
Jamaal Barber:Like, I'm I'm from Littleton, North Carolina, man. You supposed to get you some land and get you a double wide. Like, I'm out here making art, like, for money. Like, come on, man. I don't know.
Jamaal Barber:There's nothing. Nobody's supposed to live like this. That's what I'm that's what I'm sitting to always tell myself. And I have to fight against it, like, because my natural tendency like, if you let me, I'll just be in the studio all day. I know that.
Jamaal Barber:I I enjoy it. It's work. I'm very dedicated and focused. I'm I'm focused on the output, but there's a sense that why am I here making this stuff? And there's so many people that are not.
Jamaal Barber:Like, so many people that have harder circumstance that don't get to do that work much harder than I do.
Rob Lee:Yeah.
Jamaal Barber:And I don't know. It's it's, it's being connected to that community at all times. And so part of it is, like, working myself out of that and really allowing myself those those freedom and space to, like, Jamal, you were put here to make this thing. And so you have to make it. And and another part of me is saying like, are you really put here to make this thing?
Jamaal Barber:Like, is this good enough? Is this the highest potential you can go? So I'm always pushing to, I've got to make something amazing if I've been given this time and opportunity, this life, this breath in my body to make these things. Like, I I don't know. I wanna give back to it.
Rob Lee:I I encountered the same thing. We're we're we're speaking very similar languages where, like I said, I've been doing this a long time, doing the reps and all of that stuff, but then feeling like this one didn't hit. You could ask some better questions. You could have did this. You you did that during the interview or whatever.
Rob Lee:Just really, blowing out of proportion anything that just at the end of the day, it's a conversation. It's not the perfect thing, and conversations have imperfections. And one of the things that I do just to kind of keep myself sort of settled and grounded is when I'm uncomfortable with something, when I'm not quite sure of something, I just go back to what I know. I I know what makes me laugh, and I, like, I I get a little attention here and there for stuff that I do and people will gas it up. And I'm like, okay.
Rob Lee:Cool. And I don't hear the negatives. The negatives come from me. You know, the negatives don't come from anyone else. They come they come from me.
Rob Lee:Right. Yeah. And and what I do is just, like, yeah. I know. I'm an h list celebrity.
Rob Lee:I just take myself further down the alphabet, you know, where someone's like, hey, man. It's Rob. I was like, noted celebrity here. How are you? And, you know, it it keeps it sorta normalized, but Yeah.
Rob Lee:I'm aware of the work that I put in. I'm aware of the output. I'm aware of the the stakes, You know, even in doing this, like, if I just got on here with no context of who you were and just like, I wanna do the interview but didn't prepare or anything like that, I'm wasting your time. I'm wasting the listener's time if this goes out, and it's just kinda janky. And, you know, that's important to me, you know, putting out something that is someone's gonna get something from.
Rob Lee:Someone's gonna feel like, oh, okay, cool. Someone asked me about my work. That's great. Because a lot of times, the people that I'm interested in talking to, people haven't talked to them about their work. Mhmm.
Rob Lee:Yeah. And so I feel like a level of responsibility there or even, you know, last with the last interview that I did, I did with a person that I really admire, and he's in his, like, late seventies. He he he does this sort of media thing. He's a any television producer, music, but all of this stuff, he's got a long history, and he was like, man, I'm feeling really fortunate that you had me come on your podcast. And I'm like, wow, I'm a nobody.
Rob Lee:You're doing this. Like, when he when he mentioned, yeah, man. You know, when I was kicking it with Jimmy Hendrix back in the day, I was like, I was like, how, Sway? You know? And he was like, he feels really fortunate that, one, like, you know, someone my age and background and all of this stuff will be interested in the work that he's doing or has done and really into that work.
Rob Lee:So just seeing that that conversation, it has some meat there. That conversation has value there, and it shouldn't be taken lightly.
Jamaal Barber:Absolutely not. And and I think it's important, because when I do studio noise, the it it is I don't it's not that you haven't heard these people before, because some of them you have. Some of them you haven't. I I try to, like, go through the spectrum of, like, picking people that you might know, but this person you need to know because they're, like, on the come up. Like, I'm catching them early.
Jamaal Barber:Or I'm catching them and, you know, you just probably have never heard of them, but they do great work. That type of thing. But the you've probably never had them have conversations that way, with a black person talking about blackness and how it reflects in their work and being, you know, let's shit. No. I know a lot about art, so I'm connecting to you on that.
Jamaal Barber:But it's not the high level it's not not high level, the high brow academic way of discussing it. Like, this is how black people talk. When I go to people's studio, this is what we sound like when we're talking to each other. We make jokes on each other. We talk about people work.
Jamaal Barber:We're very serious about the thing that we're doing, but we know where we are and who we are, and we're enjoying it. And so that that personal connection is super important. It's it's less verified. It's accessible. And I wanna step back just
Rob Lee:to for for the for the listeners who might not be aware. What is studio? What is what is studio?
Jamaal Barber:Oh, the noise? Oh, man. Across the screens.
Rob Lee:I wanna give you, you know, the the shameless plug piece right there a little early.
Jamaal Barber:Oh, no. It's all good, man. This is studio noise, man. It's a black art podcast. So, yeah, I was, going to people's studios and having conversations just like this, just pulling up and learning so much game and and getting so much knowledge that, you know, I just wanted to start to capture it.
Jamaal Barber:So that's what I, end up doing. I've been doing it for a while. And I've I've I love talking to people that have really made it because they always look back and give, like, really good gain. But I also love talking to people that are ascending, that are that are just making good work that dedicated to the art and, like, maybe they're they're about to pop. And you get to talk to them.
Jamaal Barber:And and, you know, it was a I call it a family, man, because I keep in touch with all these people, and I'm following their career. I become invested in them. Like, I'm here here with you. Like, I I interviewed Latoya Hobbs before she did, like, the big pieces. And when I interviewed her, we kind of talked about, no.
Jamaal Barber:I've been working on this big project, and I think it's gonna be good. And then it comes out, and it's like, oh, this is what you was talking about. Like, this the the that Harvard bought all your pieces like this that was just in the Frist Museum. This, the head, the solo show in the Baltimore Museum of Art. Like, this is what you were talking about?
Jamaal Barber:But now we could talk to her to that next process of now that I've made this thing people want me. Now what do I have to do to keep up with it? Now how do I keep up with demand? How I still promote myself? And so the conversation expands and you get to come in at different entry points and see it.
Jamaal Barber:Right? And so I interview people that just graduated from from from college. Haven't had a solo show. Haven't started a thing. One of them, Katharine Reese, she ended up going to Yale for for painting.
Jamaal Barber:So I talked to her, but while she was thinking about grad school, I talked to her when she entered Yale. And now I'm, hopefully, get to talk to her again now that she's graduating to get the whole spectrum. I think you need to follow this and know that this thing is possible. Like, there's so many ways for you to be an artist, you know, because it's not like you're a computer programmer, and it's a certain type of job everybody know from whether you're in California or or New York. Your computer programmers do this thing.
Jamaal Barber:You can kinda study it. You can do it. You can get a sense of it. But as an artist, every artist is individual. Every artist is making it with a different, different pie.
Jamaal Barber:Right? Cause you know, it's like, it's like your art practice is a big pie and it has a bunch of different pieces in it. Some people teach. Some people do solo shows. Some people do installations, public art.
Jamaal Barber:Some people do murals. Some people do, mentoring. Somebody you know what I'm saying? Like, it's so many different ways in how they put their art career together is just as important because that speaks to who they are as a person. You know what I'm saying?
Jamaal Barber:And it speaks to what they produce as well. So now you get all these insights on this. You know, these people have, are real people, you know, and that's the part that people need to understand. Like there's a certain personhood that's involved with, with you being an artist And and a lot of decisions that you make, whether you like it or not, come from who you are. Whether or not you pick this color or that color, whether you go big or you go big or you go small, whether you make a a a series of a 100 pieces or one big thing.
Jamaal Barber:Like, it's all these things really come back to who you are as an individual, and you got to try to understand that. And I think that if you just give people space and you give them the understanding and you want to know. Right? Because most artists, they're making this thing. They want to share it.
Jamaal Barber:They want to share it. They want to talk about it and let everybody know how they spent their life doing this thing.
Rob Lee:Yeah. You know, people get to the spot where you really want to talk about what you do, how you do it, and and, again, as you're describing it, we're we're we're we're definitely crossing streams here. It's just the same, so it's just, like, I'm the northeast version of it down there, and, you know, just the difference is, and I'm talking to podcasters as well and podcast art and so on. But, yeah,
Jamaal Barber:I I
Rob Lee:think we have folks on, and I love that that piece about the the sort of trajectory, the the the arc. And, you know, one of the things that I'm, you know, considering doing is a season where I just run it back and really intentionally catch up with folks that I've had on. And it's just like the whole season is just re interviews. Where are we at now, you know, after doing x amount of episodes, x amount of years doing it, where are folks at now following that career? And
Jamaal Barber:That's fun. That's it's so much fun because when you're talking to people, I mean, you're talking to people for, like, an hour. Like, after after I talk to you for an hour, like, shoot. We friends. I don't know much about you, but Yeah.
Rob Lee:And that's the thing. Like, when I when I talk to folks and some people don't get it, and I think it's an identifying metric, right, where, you know, I I go to some of these art shows. I get invited to different things. I was like, you know, I'm I'm very mindful of where I put the time and energy. But at the root of it, you know, what I'm aiming for is, like, yeah.
Rob Lee:We're friends. We've been talking, man. I I know what kind of food you like, you know, into. And, you know, and then kinda being able to sort through it, especially being here. Most of my interviews are are in Baltimore with Baltimore based folks, and that's the sort of mission statement, if you will, as to what what I'm doing and what I, you know, will continue to do.
Rob Lee:And so I'm encountering and seeing these people all the time, and sometimes it's not as friendly as you would hope. But a lot of times, it it is pretty friendly. And, you know, you want everybody to do well. You wanna see people, and it's like, hey, we've connected. And and this is sort of the last piece I'll say before going to this next question.
Rob Lee:I look at this as this is sort of my creative outlet, and I brought someone on to collaborate on my creative outlet, and sometimes that's understood and that's people get that, and other times it's almost like it's like a painter. You have someone that's like, you're sitting for me. It's it's a version of that, and sometimes people get it, sometimes they don't, and, you know, but I try to maintain that that that's that's what I'm doing. I'm coming with sort of this energy and this effort. If I just came in like like the Migos in that Joe Budden interview with academic now you get the reference.
Rob Lee:That's all that really matters. And, you know, it's that. And but, yeah, coming from a good place of, you know, I'm here for friendship. That that's a lot of times what it is.
Jamaal Barber:Yeah. No. I think you're there for curiosity. You said it. You said it before.
Jamaal Barber:That that word, that curiosity, like, I like, the most important part is, like, I want to know who you are. Like, I wanna know, like, what makes you, what made you pick that color? Like, ultimately, when I'm looking people artwork, that's what I'm thinking. I'm like, yo. I I'm so impressed with, like, there's so many decisions that people make.
Jamaal Barber:Like, why did you pick that shape? Why did you why did you pick that color? Why did you pick this reference? Why did you how did you connect these two things, like, on the thing? So, like, I wanna understand it because, selfishly, I wanna also be able to make that decision too.
Jamaal Barber:Right? If especially when I see something that's really good, I wanna know, like, yo, you left this amount of white space. Why would you leave that amount of white space? And then Maybe I can try to do it or some I don't I don't know. Like, it's it's it's part of that is, like, I'm so engaged in the process that the other people processes are fascinating too.
Rob Lee:You know
Jamaal Barber:what I'm saying? And, like, so then that's like I said, that's who you are. And so I gotta know who you are in order to to understand it.
Rob Lee:So I got I got well, actually, it's really just one last real question because it's I think they these the I have 2 listed, but they cover the same territory. So, you know, taking into account sort of your background as as as being an artist, as being a person, as a a journalist in the art space. Right? Because that's that's really what it is. You're having a conversation.
Rob Lee:Let's call it what it is, journalism. And, you know, you're pursuing you're pursuing art. You're you're you're covering it, and you're teaching it. Talk about how those those areas sort of intersect for you and sort of any advice that you could share to those emerging artists of, like, yo, I'm a person that's doing it. I talk to people who are doing it of all different, you know, degrees in their their sort of journey.
Rob Lee:Talk a bit about that, like, what you kinda take out of sort of that the lifestyle that you're in and sort of, like, what would you share to some of these more emerging artists that you've learned over the years?
Jamaal Barber:I think I think it's I would look at it as one big art practice. Like, it's not like, I do all these little bit bits and pieces. Like, I have one big art practice, and this is how I divide it up, through teaching, through talking to other people, through making art, through printing for other people. Like, it's like, it's a whole thing. And all of you need to do all of it to make it work.
Jamaal Barber:I I don't know or have an interview anybody that don't have the same balls in the air. Like, you know, it's just juggling. Like, your balls might be different colors, but you're still juggling. Everybody's, like, juggling, trying to make it work. And then and part of it is, like, the love and dedication that you have to the process has to be fundamental.
Jamaal Barber:It has to be priority number 1 because it doesn't work no other way. Like, it don't work if you yeah. Yeah. I wanna make art, but I also wanna go hang out with my friends all the time. Like, no.
Jamaal Barber:That don't work. Like, you gotta you gotta build your whole life around your practice. And then along the line, you'll be able to make things, but you can't judge it in a moment either. So I make a lot of stuff, and I don't know, 75% of it to me is not great. You know?
Jamaal Barber:But how many years do I have to make something in order to make it worth it, like, at the end? So especially, like, young artists, when I'm teaching, I always tell people, like, like, I'm gonna show you some stuff, but you're gonna have to discover it for yourself still. Even though I'm guiding you and showing you, giving you this advice, talking to you can talk to whoever you want to. It doesn't beat the the experience of doing it, and nothing can replace it. And so the one thing when I do talk to people, I always ask them, like, alright.
Jamaal Barber:If I told you that you had to work constantly at this pace, like, especially when it's, like, finals time, in in college, I taught at Georgia state. Final time was like, oh, man. I've never worked as hard in my life, but it's like, imagine you worked this hard every single day. If I told you you'll still be 5 years before you make anything that people like, would you still do it? And, like, that to me is the fundamental question that everybody has to ask themselves in terms of, like, what you think you're gonna get from it.
Jamaal Barber:It's not gonna be what you think it is. Like, it's not gonna be money. Right? Because, you know, we have I know a lot of artists. They're not all rich.
Jamaal Barber:Right. Like, who is, like, who I I could count on one hand a number of, rich artists that I've known and have interviewed. Everybody's not big time. Like, you know, you gotta you gotta, like, I don't know. It's 10 10 or 15 names for people that you automatically know.
Jamaal Barber:Mickalene Thomas, Deborah Roberts, like, people like that that you automatically know. And there are thousands of other artists that are out there working every day that are just as good as they are, but are not where they are. And so those people have to still make work in order to get the chance to do it. And would you still do it if you weren't getting accolades? If nobody's acknowledging, if you don't sell anything because that after 5 years to 6 year, you're gonna be really successful.
Jamaal Barber:Mhmm. Are you gonna make it through? Do you have enough dedication to the thing that you're doing? Do you have enough love for it to sacrifice everything for the 5 years of nothing? Yeah.
Jamaal Barber:I gotta emphasize that when I tell it to people too. I I became a printmaker, got all my stuff, got laid off my job, didn't sell anything for 2 years.
Rob Lee:Mhmm.
Jamaal Barber:2 years of constantly making prints, being at home, keeping my son, like, not not getting a job, just being strictly dedicated, made a bunch of prints, lot of prints over that 2 years. Then nobody wanted them, but I kept making the art. And so having that dedication to the thing is what, to me, is more important than anything, because the person that's willing to give their life over to a process that has no guaranteed results. And this is what happens a lot of times. I'm blanking on the name, but there's an artist in Virginia.
Jamaal Barber:He made art his whole life. He got a museum show when he passed away. So he had made art his whole life, never left it never left the the county in Virginia he was at, Was still in the same area, always making his stuff, and he did it for himself. It was beautiful stuff, wonderful stuff, but there's so many people making art. Everybody can't get attention.
Jamaal Barber:It's not possible for how much art, how many people are making art out in the world is not possible. But do you still do it? And, like, those are the people that really make it big. Those are the people that are gonna make something eventually that can get people attention. Now, are you happy with it eventually?
Jamaal Barber:And so part of that is like a test of dedication for people, because a lot of people can draw. Mhmm. And and none of that matters in terms of being successful. When successful people, whether they know how to draw or not, is not number 1 on the list.
Rob Lee:Yeah. The that's a good point, and it's a good good spot for us to to close on because I I I when I'm teaching teaching podcasts and we're working with other podcasts and helping them launch their thing, I asked them, I was like, do you have the stamina for it? Is this something that you wanna do, and what's the number of episodes you see yourself doing in this, especially with the students, and having to revisit stuff that I've done and just I'm kind of nose blind to. And I won't say a master too, but I'm kind of like, oh, yeah, this is common for me. But I'm like, yo, you have this idea, you have this premise for a podcast.
Rob Lee:Is it a 50 episode? Is it a 10 episode thing? Are you gonna get bored with it and really start to think through to ideate on that? And, you know, is it something that you're, like, I wanna change things, then you lose the audience. Then you've kinda betrayed sort of that promise that you put out there.
Rob Lee:Yeah. And it's something to consider. It's not saying it's a right or wrong way to do it, but it's something to consider. And, you know, but, yeah, you're right. It's that hard work, and oftentimes, it's not seen.
Rob Lee:And I think one of the things in doing sort of a version of hard work that at times isn't unseen or doesn't feel like it's seen, finding those moments to celebrate those wins a bit more, that's that's the thing that I find a lot of folks you know how they say artists a lot times don't pay themselves when they get those grants and they get that Yeah. Yeah. It's a version of that. It's just like, I gotta keep working. I gotta keep at it.
Rob Lee:I got I got more podcast. Yes. Yes. Seventeen interviews to do this week. Yeah.
Rob Lee:Yeah. You know, that's that's sort of the thing. So, yeah, I I think you really hit the nail on the head as far as a lot of things to to consider, and so thank you for that. And
Jamaal Barber:Sure.
Rob Lee:I want to move into my last few questions, my rapid fire questions. I've added 2 since we've been talking because, you know, I've heard some things I wanted to dive a little bit deeper on. So don't overthink these. I always tell people that it's like don't overthink them. They're just questions.
Jamaal Barber:Yeah. We freestyle them. I got you.
Rob Lee:So so here's the first one. Here's the first one. What's your favorite color? Black. You get it?
Rob Lee:So so when you're when you're working, right, like, the like, those times can, you know sometimes working, you you mentioned you sometimes you wouldn't even leave, you know, you just work. You wouldn't even leave studio, wouldn't even, you know, sort of take a break and things of that sort. What is that that meal, that sort of thing that you're like, just makes me feel better. Like, after all of this work goes that you may have missed a cut, you may have screwed something up. You're like, no one's going to notice this.
Rob Lee:Right. And you need this for Is there is there a meal or something that, you know, kind of gives you, like, alright. I'm I'm alright at this.
Jamaal Barber:You know what? My my thing is always when my wife when my wife sees me stress out, she was like, he wants some Chipotle. It's like, alright. Yeah. I think I do want Chipotle, actually.
Jamaal Barber:Thank you.
Rob Lee:It's a yes. Yes. Hey, I don't know.
Jamaal Barber:It's something about, like, just having having a meal, man. And it's I don't know. It's good.
Rob Lee:I hear you. I hear you. Like, you know, when for me, it's when when something goes left and is not going quite right. It used to be Chick Fil A, and then I matured, and now it's just Indian food. It's like tikka masala.
Jamaal Barber:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Rob Lee:It's the the whole setup and all the antioxidants that in them, like, that baby feel like I'm reborn. So here's the last 2. And they're they're similar, but slight.
Jamaal Barber:There's a there's a bit
Rob Lee:nuance here. Who are your favorite people to discuss art with? And that's a good question because of what you do.
Jamaal Barber:My favorite people to discuss art with is probably is 2 different types of people. Types of people or people in particular, like.
Rob Lee:People in particular, you know, you know. Okay.
Jamaal Barber:Yeah. Yeah. So, my man Charlie Palmer is a good friend and mentor of mine, and I can always pull up on him, and we always end up having, like, great art conversations. Because Charlie is Charlie is a machine. You ever you ever get a chance to interview Charlie?
Jamaal Barber:Charlie's amazing. He just did a stamp for, the US post office. So and he just does all these amazing work. He was working on a commission for DC Comics when the last time I went to his studio. So it's just a wide range of stuff that he's gotta do.
Jamaal Barber:But he he is so insightful, and he's, like, at that age where, like, you know, he's reflecting on his life and stuff like that. So we can always always have a good art conversation with him, anytime I get a chance. And in and I work out of a community printmaking studio. I landed printmaking studio down here, in Hateville. And I don't know anybody that comes in there.
Jamaal Barber:No. And I know, like, if you willingly give up your free time to go to a printmaking studio, you are my type of person, and we are gonna have some fun in here. We're gonna listen to music. We're gonna make art. We're gonna get the presses.
Jamaal Barber:You came here to print. I came here to print. So we are about to have some fun in here. That's all. Any anybody that come to Landon Pirmika Studio and Charlie Palmer.
Rob Lee:Okay. Okay. This is the last one. I'm very curious as to what folks are listening to. Like, I got I got the food piece.
Rob Lee:I got the Chipotle off of you. So, you know, you know, what do you what's what's the most recent song that you played?
Jamaal Barber:The most recent song that I the most recent album that I played was black classical music, by let me who is it by? Black. It's funny. I remember the name of the album, but I don't remember the name of the artist.
Rob Lee:That's that's the thing.
Jamaal Barber:You know, Yusef is Yusef, Yusef Days. Okay. Black classical music is jazz. Like, a black, or like orchestra kind of jazz album. Like, it has a lot of, like, African influence.
Jamaal Barber:And so it's a it's a wonderful album. I remember playing it in the studio. Yeah. And then one of my students that were at Penland came up and say, what do we listen to today? This is really good.
Jamaal Barber:I was like, yo, it is good. You're right. I have
Rob Lee:great music. This
Jamaal Barber:this is a phenomenal album. So, yes, if, yeah, get a chance, just just pop on black classical music and and play that thing. It's it's good stuff, man. Yousef, David.
Rob Lee:Okay. I gotcha. I'm gonna add it to the list. That's kinda it for the pod, for the for the real interview, you drop the hot seat. And, in transitioning from the hot seat seat, I want to, invite you to go to the shameless plug seat until they find folks where they can check you out, work, website, all of that good stuff.
Rob Lee:The floor is yours.
Jamaal Barber:Absolutely, man. Thank you. I appreciate you, bringing me on, man. I like this crossover podcast and stuff, man. You know, we need more of this support detail of who we out here, man.
Jamaal Barber:So as you board Jamal Barber, you can check me out at jbarber studio on all your social medias atjbarberstudio.com website. The store, I always keep some nice small, affordable prints on there for people looking to start collecting. You know, people would tell me my stuff getting too pricey, and I never wanna never wanna lead the people, man. So you look at my website, you always find some some nice that you can, get into if you want to. And, of course, you gotta follow the podcast Studio Noise, n o I z e, Noise with a z.
Jamaal Barber:Make sure you check it out, like our podcast. So everywhere you listen to podcast, we had it I had so because it's just me on the podcast doing all the things.
Rob Lee:Yeah.
Jamaal Barber:Whenever I got some in my career that I need to do or, excuse me, something in my life that happens, like, I have to, like, take a break. So I was intending to be at Penland with episodes, but Penland was so busy. It's such a great place. That's a whole another podcast episode talking about Penland. It.
Jamaal Barber:But I didn't get a chance, but I got new interviews coming, starting up again, coming back at you all summer long. And there you
Rob Lee:have it, folks. I wanna again thank Jamal Barber for coming on to the podcast and sharing a bit of his journey with us. And I'm Rob Lee saying that there's art, culture, and community in and around your neck of the woods. You've just got to look for it.
