Welcome to the truth in his heart, your source for conversations at the intersection of arts, culture, and community. I am your host, Rob Lee, and I am super excited to have you with us today. My next guest is a Chicago based artist, educator, and cultural producer who collaborates with artists and art organizations in her role as museum manager at the 21 C Museum Hotel Chicago. Please welcome Jennifer Murray. Welcome to the podcast.
Jennifer Murray:Thank you. I'm excited to be here and talk about all things art with you.
Rob Lee:I am super excited. And, as I as I'm one to do. Right? Especially because we've met already. We met in person, which is a a plus, and we'll talk about that a little bit.
Rob Lee:But as I like to say, since I've include some of the video component of this podcast, thank you for wearing your glasses. Whenever there's a person wearing glasses, I have to acknowledge it.
Jennifer Murray:Yes. Absolutely. Yeah. I'm at that point where life is just easier to see with glasses and then, then not. So, yeah, sometimes I wear the contacts and it's just not what it used to be, so I can acknowledge that.
Rob Lee:I I didn't even have the option. It was one of those things where you go to the eye doctor and he's like, the shape of your eyes, sir. And I was like, this is a lot.
Jennifer Murray:No. I wore contacts, every day for decades, and now I'm at the point where, yeah, that's just there's too much going on. Can't see.
Rob Lee:It's it's that thing where, it's like even my my image, the the the image of me, it's it's a lot of me smiling as a person who I'm I'm told I don't smile enough, but every image of me is is me smiling. And one of the reasons why I'm a little self conscious about smiling now is because my partner, she'll say, like, you know your eyes disappear when you smile or when you take your glasses off. So, yeah, it is it's that. I was like, this is this is what we're doing. This is Oh, no.
Rob Lee:You know, those those small things, they just show you you care.
Jennifer Murray:Yes. Yes.
Rob Lee:So be before we get into the the deeper, questions, I wanna go back and and give you the sort of space and opportunity to to introduce yourself in your own words. I find, like, a lot of times and we were touching a little bit. We get those files. We get that Dropbox invite, and, sometimes it's really grandiose. And somehow, at times, the essence of who the person is at their root is lost.
Rob Lee:So getting it directly from the person, there's a little bit more value in in in truth than that. So if you will, could you introduce yourself? Sure.
Jennifer Murray:My name is Jennifer Murray. I'm an educator, artist, arts administrator, curator, parent, many, many things. Currently the museum manager at 21 C Museum Hotel Chicago. And prior to this role, I was the executive director at Filter Photo here in Chicago for about 8 years. And I've also been a long time educator, I taught undergraduate students, photography for about 20 years.
Jennifer Murray:This is maybe the first academic year that I've not taught in in a long time. So, yeah, I I wear a lot of different hats. I'm a trained art handler and, installer. Many years running a nonprofit and working as a arts and culture worker. So I kinda do lots of different things in the art spheres.
Rob Lee:Thank you. So, yeah, I learned a few things in there that from my you know, if you watch these movies, right, and, like, let's say it's a, you know, like a thriller or something where the cops are involved, and you'll see that board that has the string that connects everything.
Jennifer Murray:Yes.
Rob Lee:I was doing that. I do that when I'm looking at, like, alright. What's the through line? Who's the who's the guest? And I just learned a bunch of things you from what you just said, so thank you for that.
Rob Lee:So I I wanted in this attempt to to go backwards, where where does the story begin? Like, what was there, you know, a defining moment, a memorable experience, a maybe a show, a piece of art, you know, an image that really kinda ignited that path or caught your eye. You're like, I wanna do something in art. I'm not sure where, but where does the story begin for you?
Jennifer Murray:You know, this is a tough one for me. This is a tough question. I I did see your questions in advance, and this was the one that I was like, it's a tough where does it start? So I will say I I have an MFA in photography from Columbia College, Chicago. And I have a bachelor's degree in sociology and fine arts.
Jennifer Murray:And as an undergraduate student, all of the questions about that combination of art and sociology was, oh, you must like to take pictures of people. It's like, no, not not at all. That's not at all what I like to do. And so I think those connections took me a long time to be able to articulate.
Rob Lee:But
Jennifer Murray:I would say that for me, it sort of goes back further than that and thinking about, what does it mean to be a creative person? And I grew up kind of a sciency bookish kid and wanted to be a veterinarian. And then I went to college and hated my first biology class, but loved my photography class. And I think for me, it's because photography is also science. And so the kind of physical aspects of analog photography, Loading the camera, being in the dark room, rocking the tray, all the sort of, you know, learning about the chemistry, all of those things excited that sort of sciency part of me.
Jennifer Murray:And then, I was also beginning to realize I'm just a person that likes to work with their hands. And when people say that, I feel like it's kind of a common thing that people say. It's like, well, what does that mean? And for me, that means that, like, the, since early childhood, I was rearranging the furniture in the living room while my mother was at work and she would come home and just be like, okay, this is where the couch is now. And so, so that doesn't seem like an arty or, you know, creative thing, but, you know, for me, it is all a part of that same idea of like wanting to see the world differently, wanting to have some control over what that look looks like, and wanting to use my hands to do that.
Jennifer Murray:And so for me it was really kind of a path through, through photography, in college, that helped me sort of bring all of those things together. You know, I like to work with my hands, and I'm really interested in solving visual problems, both 3 d and 2 d, which I think is really what leads me to not only make things, but also, you know, want to handle art, and want to be in a position where I'm you know, handling and touching art objects and, in addition to making my own work, but sort of creating things, conceptually with other people, but then also kind of physically wanting to kind of really be in there where all the stuff is actually happening with our objects.
Rob Lee:I don't know
Jennifer Murray:if that's kind of a clear answer, but the meandering path.
Rob Lee:Oh, no. No. No. No. Thank you for that.
Rob Lee:I think, you know, again, I've I've been on this this this belief of you let folks cook. You know? You you you get you get everything out of it. And what happens for me, it makes me look like I'm much more talented than I'm actually in. I, can knock off a couple more questions later when you let the person just cook.
Rob Lee:Yes. But but but thank you. And, you know, I'm always curious where one sort of, like, beginnings are and, like, maybe how close or how they see the world through maybe that initial, like, interest in arts and creativity. And I've talked about it before, and, you know, I shared it with you before we got on. I was, you know, able to, you know, be a part of a, a a cartoon and and comics sort of, like, community and an event.
Rob Lee:And that's where I thought I was gonna go into. I thought I was gonna be a comic book illustrator when I was a kid. That was what I wanted to do. That's all I was interested in. And Sharf returned to it maybe in a different degree as an adult, but it was that sort of period where I was it just wasn't gonna be for me.
Rob Lee:This version of it wasn't gonna be for me. And I do this, and I have been doing this for big chunk of my life for about almost it'll be 16 years in February. So playing with audio, working with audio, doing storytelling, and, you know, facilitating storytelling is the way I would really like to do it. You guys are doing all the talking. If I can cut more of me out of this, I will.
Rob Lee:It's like an editing note. So in it and and and I I wanna I wanna talk about this one because we met, through, like, my interest in the 21 c Hotel just macroly, and then it just so happened. I happened to go to Chicago and stay there, with my partner back in May, I believe, for a convention with the day job. It was something there, and I was like, oh, I'm gonna be in Chicago. And we met.
Rob Lee:We had coffee. Thank you again for the coffee. Mhmm. So for folks that are undipped, and I really, really love the the the hotel, each place, each location I've stayed, it's it's a concept that really just aligns for what my values are and what I dig in visiting the place. And the, the exhibit that was there back in, in May, I really dug that as well.
Rob Lee:A lot to talk about. I was like, Oh, I can't wait till we get this interview booked. So for folks that are undeped and unfamiliar with the 21 c Museum Hotel, what is it? How how did how did what was the concept? Things of that nature.
Rob Lee:I'm just trying to get a little bit of of that because I'm curious, but I'm sure folks are like, what are you talking about 21 c? Is that a band? What are we doing?
Jennifer Murray:Yeah. No. Absolutely. I can dig in. So 21 c, Museum Hotel is this kind of really beautiful concept where there are 8 hotels.
Jennifer Murray:And I usually describe it as being kind of middle America, meaning it's not on the coasts. And, it's really a a a permanent art collection that is, kind of spread across those, various hotels. We have a chief curator, Alice Grace Stites. And Alice curates, from the permanent collection. And the permanent collection is really begun by Laura Lee Brown and Steve Wilson, who are still actively collecting.
Jennifer Murray:And it really began in Louisville, Kentucky. As a way to both showcase their kind of really amazing 21st century art collection. But also kind of help revitalize downtown Louisville, and this was kind of early ish 2000s. And so they had this idea for a museum downstairs with a hotel upstairs, and it did all of the things that they hoped it would do. It brought people to Louisville to not only stay in the hotel, but also to see, their amazing art collection.
Jennifer Murray:And they really thought of it as kind of a one and done. But I know other kind of investors came to the table and said, you know, this is amazing and we want to do this in our city. So now we're have, Chicago, is this kind of Northern most and a couple of locations in Kentucky, Cincinnati and, North Carolina, Bentonville, Arkansas. And I'm missing a few others in there as well. But you know, if the concept is really, a thematic exhibition that pulls from the permanent collection, the collection is, I would say it's really kind of a vigorous, example of 21st century art.
Jennifer Murray:And so that's where 21 c comes from, the term, is that all of the art that is collected is from 21st century artists. And some of that work is, is really challenging and really exciting, and I think that our curator, Alice Grace Stitesch, does this amazing job of kind of putting together topics that are really relevant to the time that we're in. And when an exhibition, travels, you know, so currently we have offspring new generations, which is I believe the show that you saw. And that show will travel to another 21 c, you know, it may go in, it may rest, it may go into storage, and then if it comes back out, you know, at a different point in time, in a different location, a different 21 c, it generally gets, adapted and updated. And so it might get adapted for the new space that it's in, you know, if it is gonna be in, Saint Louis, then it may get adapted for that space.
Jennifer Murray:And then it may also get, you know, adapted or updated for the time And so some pieces might cycle out, and some newer acquisitions might cycle in. So that the concepts were always really fresh, and really meant to be thought provoking and, you know, provocative. But also, you know, the other really important thing about 21 c is that because it's a hotel, it is free and open to the public 247, which is of course, unlike, you know, most museums across the country. So you can go in, at any point, anybody can come in, there's kind of no barriers to access, which is I think a really important part of, you know, 21 C's mission is that we are really providing this space for anyone and everyone to come in and not only, you know, see the exhibition, but every piece has, you know, didactic wall labels so that they can, you know, learn about not only the concept of the exhibition, but also the individual works part.
Rob Lee:That's that's great. And, you know, that's the only, like, in the two times I think I said this where we met. This has only been 2 times that I've been in the state of Illinois. I won't even say I was in Chicago previous. I was in some county that was on outskirts.
Rob Lee:And, you know, the the hotels, the only museum experience I had when I was there, though, and
Jennifer Murray:I love that.
Rob Lee:And and and I dug it. I was just like, man, can I take these pictures? What is it? How can we can we slot some no. I can't can't do that.
Rob Lee:But it it was it was great, and it really, you know, like, rounded out sort of, you know, what that the better part of a week I was there, but what that period was like and, you know, I stayed at the I think it's now it's no longer around the location and believe Nashville that I think that's now since closed. But that was just that initial entry point of falling in love with the concept. And it's like, I'm going to all of them. That that's literally the thing.
Jennifer Murray:Yeah. We definitely get a lot of repeat customers. Right? A lot of folks that are that are here because they do love to kinda make the, you know, the rounds at 21 c. You know, it's a beautiful hotel, and so it's a great kind of hotel experience.
Jennifer Murray:But then, you know, to your point, it's also a really great art viewing experience.
Rob Lee:I think I'm gonna create a passport. Right?
Jennifer Murray:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Rob Lee:Get your seat. So, I'm I'm curious as it relates to to your role, you know, within the hotel, Museum Hotel, how, you know like, I I saw this interview recently with, Rick Rubin, and he was talking about having sort of these art jobs or art related jobs, but not like like, for instance, if I was doing something in the arts related to, you know, this audio thing that I'm doing, I don't wanna, like, be sullied about, like, the rigors of, like, this is my main thing. This is the only thing. This is how I feed myself, and some of my creativity kinda slides away. So we do these jobs that are associated and are fulfilling, but they're not exactly what we're doing creatively.
Rob Lee:They're sort of a a barrier between the 2. So talk a bit about, like, you know, sort of your your work, your your day to day as, museum manager.
Jennifer Murray:Yep. I feel like this is potentially like this big can of worms that I love, this topic. But, you know, the the sort of easy place to start is that I'm the museum manager here. And so what does that mean? So every 21 c has a museum manager.
Jennifer Murray:And I've already talked about kind of our chief curator and the work that she does to kind of create thematic exhibitions, and working kind of with the collection. What the sort of cohort or museum managers do is we very often are the only person on property that has, you know, art, art background, art knowledge. So my job is really very multifaceted. So my job is to sort of safeguard and, you know, manage the art that we have on property. And that means just making sure everything is clean and in good shape, and, you know, making sure nothing gets damaged, and all of that stuff.
Jennifer Murray:And but then that's coupled with kind of curating arts related to bring people into our space. And that looks different in every city. And in Chicago, because we have such a robust arts community, a lot of that is kind of building partnerships with those other organizations. And then, you know, we all have a space that we call the Elevate at 21 c, which is where a museum manager kind of works with local artists within the community to curate an exhibition, generally on a kind of smaller scale and a smaller time frame. So temporary exhibitions, I change out my Elevate artist, once a quarter.
Jennifer Murray:And so and I work with Chicago area artists, so that we, you know, are constantly kind of building those connections within the art community in Chicago, and also kind of show casing, work that is not necessarily a part of the kind of permanent installation that we have. And so that means that, you know, I'll do a lot of different things. You know, any given day is like I'm running around dusting frames, and, we should also talk about the penguins. I have penguin wrangling to do. We can go back to the penguins.
Jennifer Murray:And, you know, making sure that things are kind of working. And sometimes that's AV, and sometimes it's making sure that, you know, the videos are running the way they're supposed to for video work. And, you know, sometimes that means downloading files from Dropbox that an artist has sent me, you know, per our earlier conversation. And, sometimes it means being here for evening events and having worked with an organization to help, you know, plan that event, and that can be a panel discussion or, you know, book signings or kind of work that we're that we're doing, to kind of bring in folks for events. So it's kind of it kind of varies.
Jennifer Murray:And kind of to your your your point about how does that work sort of dovetail with kind of creative practice. I think it's interesting because, you know, for me, it is one that it keeps you working within that sort of our ecosphere. Right? Whether you're working as an artist or a maker, or whether you're working as a curator, or whether you're working as a, you know, a cultural worker, you know, an arts programmer, all of those jobs within that ecosphere, they all sort of inform one another. Right?
Jennifer Murray:And it's all sort of one big happy family and community, and and regardless of kind of what role you play within that. That said, I think that there is something to be said for not having your sole source of income be your creative work. And that's the can of worms. Right? Because I think that, you know, whether we're talking about music or whether we're talking about contemporary art, I think there is there is always this pressure to produce for the producer, for the maker.
Jennifer Murray:And I think when you are tethered to that for income, I think it does have an impact on your creativity. Right? I think it does, you know, there is sort of a, you know, I think a lot of artists, there is a, like, a wonderful sense of freedom in knowing that they can go to their studio and make art, and they have a gallery that's gonna sell that art for them. And I think for other artists, there is, you know, sort of this mounting pressure of, you know, well, maybe I wanna do something creatively that's different, that is not in line with what I've been doing. And and is that, is that okay?
Jennifer Murray:Right? Do I have the artistic freedom to be able to do that given the sort of financial, entanglement that I have with, you know, late stage capitalism? The way we all have. So, yeah, I do think that it it's complicated. And for me, you know, I I've always worked sort of within the art community, but kind of like maker adjacent.
Jennifer Murray:Right? Like, I haven't ever had or wanted to be in a situation where, like, objects that I make are are in any way a source of income for me.
Rob Lee:Sure.
Jennifer Murray:And there's I think there's pluses and minuses, you know. I think that, you know, I a lot of it has to do with identity and how do we identify. Do I identify as an artist? No. That's not the first word that comes out of my mouth.
Jennifer Murray:And, you know, what does it mean to be an artist? Does it mean that you you need to, you know, earn income from that as objects that you make, or things that you make in the world? So I don't know. But I do think that it's it's complicated, as Rick would say.
Rob Lee:Is it that's a that's a good answer. And, I I'm on the same page where I've had these instances where recently, I had an opportunity to make a nice sum of money to do what I what I do here. But I had a lot of sort of it wasn't, you know, green M and Ms, but it was some considerations that were there because it's because it's precious. And to me, and it's something that is work to me, and it's something that I enjoy. But also, I don't want it to be sort of the the income driver because I've, you know, dabbled with that.
Rob Lee:I've stuck a toe in the water for that in the past. And you go through at least I would go through at the end of the year, you do your your taxes, all of that different stuff. And I'm like, why did I do that again? Oh, right. Because I didn't have any funding.
Rob Lee:So I ended up collaborating with this person, and I did some interviews as a ghost podcaster or an emcee or an or whatever. And it just wasn't alignment. And, you know, when I moved on and sort of thinking about what I was doing and really checking in with myself, I'm like, I don't want those in entanglements. It has to really it has to pass multiple filters and being able to have like, for me, it's freedom. Like, you know, there have been folks that I've reached out to in doing this pod, and they have offered funding and and so on because, you know, this podcast will be free, but it's not free to make.
Rob Lee:Yes. They they will reach out, and they have they love what I do. Right? But then at the same time, they want to tell me exactly how to do it. Oh, we don't want you doing any interviews outside of Baltimore.
Rob Lee:So if I followed that versus my own taste and interest, we wouldn't be having this conversation or have you. And and that's the thing that it it feels shortsighted. It feels as I've said it before. A lot of times people in suits don't have taste. Yeah.
Jennifer Murray:Well, and I think there's also that, you know, and I don't wanna throw sort of like the commercial gallery world under the bus in any in any way, but, you know, everybody needs to eat. Right? Everybody needs to eat. Everybody needs to make rent Whether you're an artist, or whether you're a gallerist, or whether you're, you know, you know, a podcaster. Right?
Jennifer Murray:And so everybody, you know, is is, needs to survive. And everybody wants to, you know, have their values appreciated and wants to live in alignment with their values. Right? Everybody would say that that's what they want. And I think that, you know, for some people being that kind of full time artist in whatever, you know, discipline that is, that's that can really happen for them.
Jennifer Murray:And I think for other people, that's harder. It's harder to do. And so, you know, having, you know, having work that is adjacent to the creative practice is still really rich because it keeps you in that community, and it keeps you engaged with that community and really kind of learning different things because you're learning about sort of the back end of things, which can be incredibly useful to that creative practice on the front end.
Rob Lee:Yeah. That's that's a really good point. And, you know, I find that when we're doing something that's that's unique or that feels like, I don't know if this is a safe bet. It's like it's like the film industry. You know what I mean?
Rob Lee:It's like fast movies, a little experiment. I don't think we could fund it. Oh, this is a winner here. All of the money. Here you go.
Rob Lee:And, you know, I find, like, I'm having those conversations all the time, and I try to keep that headline very specific. So, you know, the reason I was there in Chicago was because it was funded, you know, in part by my day job because I'm in higher ed. And I was like, this works out. This this aligns. And I look at the higher ed thing that really is, as you touched on earlier, sort of how we identify ourselves and what's the word we'd use.
Rob Lee:I use podcaster before I use what my day job is even though that's the the funder or what have you. And, you know, my personality is really connected to what that job is, but very much so, this is this is where I feel most free and most good. And speaking of which, when it comes to unique, the the idea of uniqueness, could you talk a bit about sort of your time at 21 c, you know, and how, you know, sort of the the the unique concept and some of the uniqueness of your role has maybe influenced how your approach, you know, from, like, where you started, you know, in the beginning of your time at 21 c to, like, now sort of those unique interactions and that unique way of doing things being sort of a a Jack Jane Jane. Let's go with Jane of all trades. You know, having so many being on your you know, you have to be on your your toes or what have you.
Rob Lee:Talk about sort of that uniqueness and how that's influenced how you go about your work now.
Jennifer Murray:Yeah. That's a great question. That's a that's a tough one. And I I sort of think of it in 2 ways. 1, sort of me personally, the work I was doing before versus the work that I'm doing now.
Jennifer Murray:Prior to this, I was, running a photo based organization. But prior to that, I ran a, an, an exhibition space that was not photo based. And it was just sort of, you know, very open in terms of, disciplines. So galleries that showed kind of all, different types of contemporary art. And then have kind of been steeped in photography for, you know, the past 8 years.
Jennifer Murray:And so being a 21 c was definitely sort of a little more freeing, and the artists that I've been working with and the organizations that I've been working with, and it's, like, not sort of being so discipline specific has been really refreshing for me to kind of get back to kind of opening up that, space again in my head, in terms of, you know, being able to work with other, kinds of artists. And so that's been exciting. And then, you know, it is it is interesting being kind of the only person on property that is kind of the museum department. Right? And, you know, you know, my colleagues are primarily folks in the sales office, but I would say the people that maybe understand what I do the best are like the engineers.
Jennifer Murray:And so it's kind of this interesting mix and an interesting place to sit literally in the office. And also kind of figuratively, because I definitely think that there's, you know, people that have been here long enough and, had experience kind of with the previous museum manager. They kind of they kind of understand it, and they've kinda seen, the various things that we do throughout the year. But I think certainly, you know, people that are that are also kind of newer here, you know, they kind of see me giving public tours and they see me, you know, kind of, you know, dusting frames, and think maybe that sort of that's the extent of it. But it's, you know, they don't necessarily see that things that are happening on the back end and kind of, you know, the research aspect of things or, you know, when you're meeting with artists and doing studio visits, you know, those are things that are kind of I'm in my little silo.
Jennifer Murray:And so that's that's been kind of interesting to kind of see, you know, I think most people are used to being in a job where there's other people in your department. Right? And so this is one where like in Chicago, like, you know, I'm my own department. And I think that that's also the advantage of kind of having multiple 21 C's is that all the museum managers are kind of, you know, in that same boat. And so, you know, we chat on Zoom, and, and we, you know, have kind of, you know, some team building, meetings and exercises, and, you know, there's a museum summit and things like that so that we do have the opportunity to kind of come together.
Jennifer Murray:And it's not only sort of talking about best practices, but also, you know, not feeling like you're you're the alone in the room. But it's definitely a great network because, you know, if I'm having if I'm struggling with, you know, I'm having an AV problem, but, you know, there's it's an art specific AV problem. I certainly have a team of people that I can go to to ask those questions, but, so I think that's definitely been an interesting it's an interesting place to be, because it's it's a little bit different, I think, than, than a lot of other kind of art jobs. And I feel like I've lost the thread of the question.
Rob Lee:Oh, you're you're good. You're you're cooking. I love it. It's, it's helpful. You may you made me think in terms of, like, being sort of your own, your own department.
Rob Lee:Right? It's like, I just want that's I just vision. Right? I had this vision in my head, as you were describing, sort of, like, some of the ins and outs of of of your role and sort of uniqueness of it to some artists. It's like, I need to speak with your manager, and you just turn around slightly, maybe changing something.
Rob Lee:It's like, oh my I'm gonna put my hair this way. I am the manager. It's like, you're just the same person. Yeah. That's how big our department is.
Rob Lee:This I just I did. Right.
Jennifer Murray:Right. I mean, that's not to say there's not you know, there's tremendous support here in Chicago, which I I greatly appreciate. You know? So it's not only kind of the support across 21 c's, you know, within the kind of museum department overall. But I think here in Chicago, there's a, you know, the entire staff.
Jennifer Murray:I think there's a really great appreciation for the mission and for the values of the organization, which is really great. You know, I don't I don't get a lot of, there's not a lot of no. There's not a lot of no. You can't do that. There's a lot of, you know, that sounds exciting, which I appreciate the, you know, just sort of the overall, you know, attitude of positivity that I think that, you know, an entire staff of people that are not necessarily trained in art, and yet there's still this enormous positivity, about the art, which I you know, you can't really ask for more than that.
Rob Lee:So much the, the the the improv energy is just flows. Like, yes. Hey. That that's interesting. Yeah.
Rob Lee:Go on. Go on. Continue. And, I think that is a great environment to you know, it it feels collaborative. It feels like moving towards and being mission driven and and goal driven versus some other environments, that that folks are are in that are working in.
Rob Lee:It's kind of what I touched on a moment ago. Like, alright. What's the the dollar associated with it? What is the win? How can we it's all of these other things other than, is this a cool idea, and can we do it?
Rob Lee:And this is something that we're we're into that aligns with our values. It feels like there's all of these other sort of, checks that that one has to hit that really aren't the most important they're important for someone, but not the most important thing for that particular moment. Mhmm. So why don't I go back a little bit and talk about, education? So having that that strong education background.
Rob Lee:So as far as, like, your your your your time, your tenure as an educator, and I've played the education game for the last year as well, which, ah, I'll I'll pull by now. I I feel I I feel like I'm I'm seasoned in that area, but also terrified to go back. Talk a bit about how sort of your experience as an educator has has served you, like, in your your your current role and then sort of, like, you look back and you see, like, sort of an interaction or sort of the troubleshooting that goes along with some aspects of your your day to day, like, how sort of that strong foundation and background in education, like serves your work, today?
Jennifer Murray:Yeah. I mean, a couple of ways. Right? I'm sort of thinking about this in 2 different ways. Like at the beginning of your question, I was thinking this way.
Jennifer Murray:And then kind of, as you were wrapping up that question, I was thinking about it another way, and maybe I'll start at that end and kind of work my way back. You know, I think, you know, if you've worked at any large education institution, you understand the bureaucracy. You understand how to work with a, a variety of constituents. Right? It's like I'm working with students, but I'm also working with faculty, and I'm also working with, you know, people in the provost office and people, you know.
Jennifer Murray:And so they're sort of all at a university. There's all of these people. Right? All of these people at play, and everybody's needs are different. And so I think having spent a lot of time as a, you know, university administrator and, you know, faculty person, and kind of seeing all of the kind of ins and outs of that, which is, of course, a very different preparation for any work anywhere than actually being in the classroom.
Jennifer Murray:And so yeah. I mean, I think that those years as a as a as an administrator in a academic environment, I think really prepares you for a lot of things in the world. But as far as being an educator and actually being in the classroom, you know, that's often the first word out of my mouth. Right? In terms of like, tell us about yourself.
Jennifer Murray:Right? I definitely think of myself as an educator. And I think it's because whether I'm standing in front of a group of undergraduate students, or whether I'm, you you know, doing portfolio reviews with artists or doing public tours here at 21c, it's just always a hat that I'm wearing and comfortable wearing. And I think for me, a lot of that is, you know, having done that for so long, it becomes sort of a natural way of talking and being with other people and that, you know, I want to provide information in a way that is digestible for whoever I'm with. Right?
Jennifer Murray:And you know, I really enjoy teaching undergraduate students in particular. And for so many years, I taught like intro students. And so I get those like 501 students. And those are actually my preferred that's my preferred sort of group of students, which is I think a little different than what a lot of people might say. They wanna work with like the advanced students.
Jennifer Murray:I wanna work with those intro students because I think that they come into an art class thinking that they know what art is, and I get to be the person that kind of, you know, shakes that up for them. And, you know, it really becomes more about visual literacy. And I think about that every time I'm giving a a public tour. Right? Like, it isn't just about learning about 21 c or learning about this artist.
Jennifer Murray:It's about visual literacy. It's about learning to see and understand art in the world. And so I really see that as how all of my various hats kind of come together, is being able to kind of, you know, I'm comfortable talking in a, you know, group of people. And, you know, I definitely feel like this is always the way I want a conversation about art to go. Right?
Jennifer Murray:You know, art today is about it's about stuff. It's not just about the way something looks, or what an artist was thinking or feeling when they made it, But it's about how it sits in the world today. And so being able to really help people unpack that is something that I'm really passionate about. And so that's kind of always the hat that I'm wearing, no matter where I am or what I'm doing. You know, that's my sort of, you know, personal mission is like, how do I open this up for people and help them to not only, you know, and it's less about even appreciating it, but like beginning to understand it.
Rob Lee:Thank you. I I think it's it's something about, like, sort of the having, I I guess, someone that's more in the intro stage and in the undergrad stage and being able to see someone with not a ton of experience where those sort of, habits come in of, oh, I know how to do this. It's like, no. No. No.
Rob Lee:Let's shake up the idea. Let's let's let's restart it. And, you know, that's in the the two instances that I've in the last year done done some some educational work. It's been high school seniors and which
Jennifer Murray:Yeah. I've done that too.
Rob Lee:And, and then it was, like, sort of an intro class in podcasting out of college. And, you know, one, it kept me honest in that, you know, hey, I've been doing this for a while, but being able to go back and say, how do I do that again? And not thinking like not doing the autopilot thing, which I think is when you do it so long, you have a process like, you know, in the past, let's say, a couple years ago when I started this particular podcast, it might take me a half an hour, you know, 45 minutes to set up and just kinda get right and get in the right head space. Now it's like, I've already done my prep. I'm already good.
Rob Lee:You know, let's just hit the buttons. Everything is queued up. Everything is set up. But if I'm showing that and teaching someone that and, you know, helping them get past things that's not even with the equipment, but sort of the theory behind, why do you want to do this podcast? Why do you want to do, you know, ask these questions?
Rob Lee:That's literally, you know, the most recent class that I did. It was around that and almost sharing my own concepts and concepts and philosophies on. You know, I remember at one point, you know, students asking, how are we gonna do editing? I was like, oh, we'll get to editing because I know editing sucks. It was like, it's not gonna be great.
Jennifer Murray:Right?
Rob Lee:Yeah. And when we got there, they were like, oh, so the lesson is we should hire an editor. I was like, yes. That's that's actually the lesson. But Yeah.
Rob Lee:Sharing this notion of what I like to call preediting. I was like, in your planning and all of that, you have so so strong of a foundation that you don't have to even spend that much time editing. You should edit in these ways. But if you have, like, a solid foundation and a solid concept and all of this foundational stuff and the the golden moment, if you will, in in that class and even in the the high school cohort was when you almost see the the light bulb go off. It's like, oh, you got it.
Rob Lee:You were you were listening to me. Right. And I can say this firsthand before I move into this next question. I have 2 more, after this. But, the, Columbus, the cart the Columbus Crossroads event, the CXC event, you you know, I was invited by, higher ed, like folks in design.
Rob Lee:And I did this panel, and I go in there. I was like, I don't talk in front of people. You know? I was like, I'm gonna bomb this. I I just go full gallows heroes.
Rob Lee:I come watch me bomb. This is I'm gonna self implode on stage. And, I I got feedback afterwards from, dude, I think Blinky teaches, like, pop culture and in comics. That's, like, what his degree and his background is in. And he was just like, yeah, you do teach, don't you?
Rob Lee:He's like, you you you did this like a teacher. And I always hear that from people, and maybe that's part of the identity I should start affixing to myself, I suppose.
Jennifer Murray:Yeah. I mean, I think it's, it's a combination of 1 teacher voice. Right? And also just sort of, kind of that mental organization. Right?
Jennifer Murray:Like, I wanna present this in a particular way. Right? And sometimes it's asking the questions that you know other people should be asking, but they aren't. Right? Here's the questions that I know need to actually happen today even though nobody's asking them.
Jennifer Murray:How do I orchestrate this conversation so that we get to that?
Rob Lee:Yeah. That's a good point. That's a good point. I'm definitely, strategio. I like to I like to have everything, ordered.
Rob Lee:So I'm very curious about this one. Like, I'm going to start inserting it into more more interviews because I have a person that, it's a dude named Aaron that I talked to on occasion. And whenever I'm at, like, sort of an impasse, like, again, this is a unique thing, and I've been doing it for a while. And I'm trying to as I maybe approach new stages on this sort of journey, and I don't like the word journey. It's it's good as a band, but not as a author.
Rob Lee:I every now and again, I run into, like, a roadblock, you know, creatively as to I wanna do this. Does this fit? How do I get there? And I try to balance an idea off of someone getting that good counsel, but you can't bounce off everyone. You know?
Rob Lee:Right. And so so for you, whether it's, you know and you touched touched on sort of the network within 21 c, but could you speak a bit on, like, if you're you're brainstorming for an idea or a concept that you wanna pitch or things of that nature, talk about sort of, like, maybe who you get that good counsel from or maybe a piece of advice that was given to you in in your your career that's been really, really something you look back on. Like, yeah, that's that's that's the direction. I'm gonna just go in that direction.
Jennifer Murray:Honestly, this was the hardest question for me. This is totally the hardest question. And, you know, why is that? I think because for me, it's like it's like a network. Right?
Jennifer Murray:And it's not like I have a go to person. It totally depends, you know. I was talking about this, you know, upcoming interview with my son, who's 16 and in a band, and we were talking about Rick Rubin. And he also with his band had done an interview recently. And so, you know, last night we were kind of talking through different interview questions.
Jennifer Murray:And so to me, that was a really rich conversation because he's coming at it, you know, wanted a completely different age than me, but also as a musician. And so that's a really useful one. Or, you know, even talking to my daughter, recently sort of about kind of philosophy and social theory because she's she's a senior in college and she's working on her thesis in sociology, and I have a bachelor's in sociology. And so for me, which I've told her in the past, like, often instead of a of a person that I go to, I'm I lean back on that. So on sociology.
Jennifer Murray:Right? So for me, the sort of like bookish research dork in me is like always there under the surface. And so if I have to write anything, anything art related, if I have to write a a description of an exhibition or, you know, I'm trying to put together, you know, an exhibition or just, you know, a couple of artists, and it's like, what ties those together? I always sort of lean back on that kind of social theory, history that I have. And the reason that I do that is really just because sort of looking for ways to articulate my language.
Jennifer Murray:And so sometimes, you know, having a conversation with another, you know, social theorist dork is a great person to talk that through with and, you know, kind of bounce ideas off of. Even though they have nothing to do with art. Right? For me, it's about kind of building these kind of threads between things. But I think, you know, some of the best some of the best advice that wasn't even delivered as advice that I got in graduate school was, I put some artwork on the table and, you know, group critique day, everybody put your work out.
Jennifer Murray:And I put these photographs out that I had made. And, my professor Lynn Sloan said, this is a very successful body of work, but it's not for me. And I thought I just that was my light bulb moment. Like that, especially like as a maker and as an educator, it was like blew my mind and still continues to be a really important thing that I understand about the way that we understand art. Right?
Jennifer Murray:Like, there is a difference between something that we like and something that is successful. And we confuse that in our culture all the time. And especially when we're talking about art, music, film, any of those things, there's I don't like that. I don't like that music. I don't like that movie.
Jennifer Murray:You know, I don't like that picture. I'm standing in front of a painting. I don't understand, so I just don't like it. And so I think that's just not the way we wanna think about that. Right?
Jennifer Murray:And so to have this, you know, professor sort of have this really profound statement kind of right away to be able to recognize that what she was looking at, she could recognize that it was successful, but she just didn't want it hanging over her couch. And, like, I get that. Right? Like, can we get to a point where we understand and appreciate something as being successful, even though it maybe isn't something that we like and personally wanna consume. Right?
Jennifer Murray:Like, I can appreciate, you know, that music for all of its sort of amazing creativity and technicality, but it isn't necessarily something that I'm gonna listen to on a regular basis. And I think this we can say this kind of across the board for sort of any, you know, I often use my my, my husband as a as an example who's not a fan of, you know, horror films. And so when he watches a horror film, he's like, I I didn't like this at all. It's like, well, you didn't like it because you don't like the way you feel, but it's a horror film and you're not actually supposed to feel good after you watch that. Right?
Jennifer Murray:Like if you're scared by the horror film, the horror film was actually a successful. Right? And so, you know, that's like this little microcosm of, what that really means in the bigger scope of things when it comes to, you know, art, music, theater, dance, anything. Right? I don't like it, doesn't mean it wasn't good.
Rob Lee:That is such a great point. It's like you you would tab dance me in my head and extracted, you know, one of these things that I say, like, all the time. You know, when I do I do a movie review podcast that I really need to get back to. But, you know, I've done it for for a couple of years in a little bit of a hiatus, but I have this this idea in it. You know?
Rob Lee:Obviously, I'm selecting movies that I I like or movies that are in their sort of anniversary years. But sort of the idea is, you know, doesn't need need to be a, quote, unquote, critically acclaimed movie or even financially successful movie, but I always have this sort of concept. Even if I like the movie, I already have this one criticism. I call it just one fix. You know?
Rob Lee:Let's say this movie is a c. I have a fix that I see in it that I think I can move it to a b. You know? And I try to think through things in that way or even if it comes to, like, a dish or something, it's just like, well, they're not gonna just say this this sucked. That's too easy.
Rob Lee:It's just too easy to do that. Let's get into maybe why I didn't like it or why it wasn't for me or what have you or even doing this podcast. And I'm trying to work on my shade of of other podcasts that are out there. I'm like, oh, yeah. You know, part of that podcast.
Jennifer Murray:Which is criticism. Right? And and I think that, you know, culturally, we think of the word criticism as a negative thing. But, like, in the arts, we don't think of that as a as a critical. You know, critical isn't bad.
Jennifer Murray:Critical is we're having a deep conversation about it, and we are talking about, you know, parts that are successful and parts that are less successful. And so I think that, you know, beginning to understand criticism as something that is positive, is really useful.
Rob Lee:Yeah. It's it's consideration. In in my head, it was like, you know, you're actually spending some time with it to absorb it. And I I remember having a conversation, talking about this pod at the day job, which is and, you know, my my my boss, she was like, I don't get art. I was just like, I don't you you get this that's what you know?
Jennifer Murray:That's a broad statement. Right.
Rob Lee:And and and then she was like, you do this. She's like, I'm sure it's good. I was like, no. It's it's fine. You know, some people like it.
Rob Lee:And, you know, I I chimed in. I was like, well, I guess it might be how you feel. Did you get a a response from a particular piece? Did you see something out there? It's like, well, I like this.
Rob Lee:I was like, well, there you go. You get art. You know? I was like, that's that's that's my take on it, and sometimes it feels a little rarefied, and that's feels like it's a whole different conversation for a different pod. But, you know, I think that's sort of the thing is at least that consideration being exposed to it and not just shutting it off of this isn't for me, or I run into people who are like, this is too white, this is too black, this is too this, this is too that.
Rob Lee:And it's just like, yeah, let's remove all of that other stuff judging on the merits and which rights was right in front of you.
Jennifer Murray:Right. Right. Yeah. And I think that,
Rob Lee:you
Jennifer Murray:know, people don't learn to do that. And I think that, you know, that kinda brings me back to sort of my educator hat. And when I think about teaching a class that's about visual literacy, it's about that. Right? It's about trying to help people understand that, like, it's okay to have an opinion.
Jennifer Murray:Right? It's okay to, you know, to to like or to not like something. Absolutely. But that doesn't mean that you shouldn't continue to think about the sort of critical aspects of whatever that is. Right?
Jennifer Murray:Like, why don't you like it, or why do you like it, and begin to kind of be able to articulate a little bit more than just your opinion.
Rob Lee:Yeah. And the last thing I was saying before I move to this last question is, you know, as a, I think the term they use for me is Jurassic millennial, which I I don't. But I I remember it it was this this this thing. I was infographic I was reading, and they were talking about, like, millennials. You can tell they're a millennial because it's they they're always saying something like, don't judge me.
Rob Lee:You know? Mhmm. It's sort of that that sort of lack of having, like, what do you stand on? What is your your sort of your take on this? And I I get so thrown off because, like, everyone has a take, but then they're not really standing on that take.
Rob Lee:Like, look. Some sometimes there has to be a hill that you're gonna die on, and, you know, maybe some people just say mac and cheese sucks. Just own it. Or maybe someone like me is like, look. You know, maybe it's a different cheese you should use.
Rob Lee:Maybe it's a different dough. I don't know.
Jennifer Murray:Some Gouda. Right?
Rob Lee:Maybe you make it smoked Gouda. Who knows? Right? So so this is the last question, and this is more of a sort of the the summary and sort of, like, what's what's coming forth. So what's next for you?
Rob Lee:Like, what do you have coming up projects, 21 c related, your own personal projects that are coming up, anything that's that's coming up in the next 6 months or so that you're super excited for that you wanted to discuss?
Jennifer Murray:Well, we've got lots of exciting things on 21 c Chicago's event calendar, but I would say the number one thing I'm excited about is, a book fair, book and print fair that we are doing, in November. So it's called Staple and Stitch, and it is happening at 21 c November 15th 17th. And it is an art book and print fair, organized by me. And, I I began it because there was really a need in Chicago. We had the Chicago art book Fair from 2017 to 2019, but since then there really hasn't been anything, like it.
Jennifer Murray:And, you know, I think it's something that the community has really been hungry for. So we've got over 60 vendors. It'll be, you know, two and a half days of folks that, make books, make prints, and, yeah, I'm really looking forward to that. I think it's gonna be, an awesome weekend. We've got programming.
Jennifer Murray:We'll have talks and all kinds of things in addition to vendors having amazing stuff on their tables.
Rob Lee:That's great. I pulled up the website. I'm looking at it now. I love the colors. I love the colors.
Rob Lee:This is great. Yeah. That's it's really exciting. I like, having sort of that, you know, identifying sort of you you touched on, like, wasn't something that was there. There's a need, and it's, like, identifying it and then using sort of, you know, sort of the space and the connections there to say, let's try to fill that need.
Rob Lee:So that's really Absolutely. Alright. We got all the real questions out of the way. Now it's time to get to the rapid fire questions.
Jennifer Murray:The ones I haven't seen?
Rob Lee:The ones you have not seen.
Jennifer Murray:Okay.
Rob Lee:But these these are Chicago related mostly. So Okay. Yeah. It's gonna be easy for you. It's gonna be easy.
Jennifer Murray:Got it.
Rob Lee:And, you know, don't overthink these. Whatever, you know, first thing that comes to mind. So when we met in Chicago, you know you know, you know, I got to indulge during that that week and some of the local eats.
Jennifer Murray:Mhmm.
Rob Lee:So what is, like, you know, one Chicago food you think everyone should try? There are some of the ones that have really good press They have a really good publicist, a food publicist. But what in your opinion, you know, what is, you know, Chicago food that everyone should try if they come to visit?
Jennifer Murray:Honestly, it is the Chicago hot dog.
Rob Lee:Okay.
Jennifer Murray:Not deep dish pizza. Let me stop you there. Mainly because deep dish pizza, like we don't eat that. Like we I mean, yeah. Like when people come in from out of town.
Jennifer Murray:Sure. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. But the Chicago style of hotdog, when I go to other cities, yeah, I might try their hot dog, but you know, I'm, I'm just never gonna put ketchup on a hot dog.
Jennifer Murray:Like it just doesn't happen. Like that's just not right. So yeah, I think especially because, it's different. I recognize that it's different. But, you know, people that in Chicago actually do eat the Chicago style hot dog.
Jennifer Murray:Like, it is a normal thing to eat for lunch.
Rob Lee:That is that is great. If you ever make it to Baltimore, I will buy you a crab cake.
Jennifer Murray:Okay.
Rob Lee:That you can try our our thing here. Some people throw out, you know, pit beef is one of our things. Okay.
Jennifer Murray:I'm a
Rob Lee:crab I'm a crab guy. I go to crabs.
Jennifer Murray:Oh, alright.
Rob Lee:But, also, I had the Chicago style dog, which was delicious, And I I remember you talking about the, the pizza thing, and I immediately thought of the Kyle Cadain joke. He's like, we you take your aunt as coming into town. We'll try it. She's like, you know, you don't like it.
Jennifer Murray:Yeah. You don't like it. I mean, it's just it's a lot of cheese.
Rob Lee:It it it was, and we were on a walk. I was like, I have a brick in my stomach. What are you doing?
Jennifer Murray:I mean, it's tasty, but at the same time, it's like a once a year kind of thing. You know?
Rob Lee:It's lasagna.
Jennifer Murray:It is lasagna. Yeah. It's lasagna. Pretending to be pizza.
Rob Lee:That's right. If you could recommend 1 Chicago, like, cultural experience, obviously, outside of food, we touch on food. What would that cultural experience be? And as I've had a little bit here, you know, I had the time. I I I was spit seen everywhere, but I had the the the opportunity to go to a Cubs game, which was on my list of things to do, and it was everything I was hoping for.
Rob Lee:It was really great except for the heat. I was, you know, but what would be, like, a a cultural experience? Obviously, 21 seasons. I mean, I enjoyed that as well as part of my I
Jennifer Murray:mean, Wrigley Field is a great place to go. I would recommend, definitely go to Wrigley if you have not been. But definitely there's a lot of folks that are, you know, not gonna be baseball or sports people, and they're gonna be like, you know, that's not my thing. I would say the Chicago Cultural Center. The Cultural Center is right downtown.
Jennifer Murray:So easy to access. It's free and open to the public. It is, the former or the original kind of public library, and a beautiful architectural building. And so kind of gorgeous Tiffany dome upstairs, a couple of Tiffany domes, and, kind of really exciting contemporary art exhibitions. Again, all free.
Jennifer Murray:And so but also very user friendly. Right? Like, you can go in and just, like, sit down at a table and, like, have a meeting with someone. It's a big space with a lot of things. And so I think it's a really great place if people wanna just go and appreciate the architecture or the building itself.
Jennifer Murray:You just need to get, you know, off the street and take a little break. Or if you wanna look at, you know, at art, it kinda has all of those things. Yeah. It's a it's a great it's a great place to go. I would highly recommend the Chicago Cultural Center.
Rob Lee:That's great. Here's the last one. I I I touched on earlier that, you know, I enjoy movies. I also enjoy horror movies. So there are a number of movies and television properties that have Chicago in the name or Chicago is the setting of said movie.
Rob Lee:Most recently, I rewatched the original Candyman last week, and I was like, great. I can see it on a big screen. Philip Glass noted Baltimore and did the score for it, so, you know, that's really tight. And, also, I'm mid eighties, so I obviously think of Ferris Bueller's Day Off. So when I'm thinking of, like, Chicago movies or movies set in Chicago, what is your favorite movie set in Chicago?
Jennifer Murray:Oh, man. This one's tough. Ferris Bueller's a pretty pretty, I would say, like, universal favorite among Chicagoans. He doesn't live in Chicago. He's he lives in the North Shore.
Jennifer Murray:But so much of that whole, like, day downtown and kind of hitting all those sort of iconic places, it's just it's a fun one. It's one that, like, you know, when you're a kid growing up in Chicago, like, you definitely see Ferris Bueller. I also think the Blues Brothers. Right? Is kind of a really fun movie that's also one that, you know, it's kind of like, standard American viewing.
Jennifer Murray:Right? Like, how do you get through life not not having seen the Blues Brothers. Right? And so I think that it's also one, like, that is I mean, there's just it's such an all star cast. The music is incredible.
Jennifer Murray:It's also, I think, given that it was, what, late seventies or early eighties when they, shot the Blues Brothers. Like, Chicago has changed so much. And for those of us that are gen xers or older, right, it is a really fun way to kind of look back and see, you know, like Maxwell Street Market isn't there anymore. And so there's a lot of things, a lot of historic things in that film that we've kind of lost a little bit. Even the sort of scenes where, like, Dan Arkwright with his, like, apartment that's right on the l, and the apartment going by and, like, rattling the whole place.
Jennifer Murray:That's a thing. But, you know, so much of that infrastructure is, like, changing in the city now.
Rob Lee:Mhmm. And
Jennifer Murray:so it definitely feels like an old world, old school Chicago, vibe about it. That is, it's always a fun one.
Rob Lee:That's great. Thank you. That is, you're off the hot seat. And, you know, I I agree with the Blues Brothers. All all of it is good.
Rob Lee:It works. So that's kinda it for the odd and the the question. So there's, two things I wanna do as we close out here. 1, I wanna thank you for coming on and spending some time with me. This has been a treat.
Jennifer Murray:Thank you.
Rob Lee:And 2, I wanna invite and encourage you to share with, the listeners pretty much this is the shameless plug portion. So if you wanna, you know, plug, Stable and Stitch again, if you wanna plug, anything 21 c related, anything your stuff related, the floor is yours.
Jennifer Murray:Awesome. Well, thank you very much, Rob. I appreciate this. It's been really fun, chatting. I love an interview where we can kind of play off of each other, and it's not just stick to the questions, so I appreciate that.
Jennifer Murray:Yeah. So I guess the same as the shameless plug is, for, you know, 21 c Museum Hotels, not just in Chicago, but, you know, kind of all locations, check out our websites. And, for me here in Chicago, definitely Staple and Stitch. You can find the website if you go to Staple and Stitch Art Book and Print Fair. And, you know, all of those things are also on Instagram.
Jennifer Murray:21c, Chicago has, has its own website. We have a great event calendar, lots of exciting things happening there. So if you're ever through Chicago, come and see us. And if you're gonna be in town in November, definitely come to the art book fair.
Rob Lee:And there you have it, folks. I wanna again thank the great Jennifer Murray for coming on and spending some time with me today. And for Jennifer Murray from the 21 C Museum Hotel Chicago, I'm Rob Lee saying that there's art, culture and community in and around your neck of the woods. You've just got to look for it.
