Rob Lee: Welcome to The Truth in This Art, your source of conversations connecting arts, culture, and community. These are stories that matter, and I am your host, Rob Lee. Today, I'm excited and having the pleasure to run it back with my next guest. I am speaking with a curator, writer, and the executive director of the Institute for Contemporary Art at Virginia Commonwealth University, VCU. We previously chatted back in 2022 during their tenure at the Baltimore Museum of Art, and I'm eager to catch up with them and see what's new in their world. So please welcome back to the program, Jessica Bell Brown. Welcome back to the podcast.
Jessica Bell Brown: I'm so happy to be here. Very excited to chat with you, Rob.
Rob Lee: Excited to have you back on. It's just like we're classing up the place a bit. You know, like mostly it's me bringing you on. It's like, all right, now this is a top tier episode. But for the benefit of the folks that shamefully may have missed our first conversation, I'd like to give you the space and opportunity to reintroduce yourself and, you know, tell the listeners a bit about your work these days.
Jessica Bell Brown: Of course. So I'm Jessica Bell Brown. I'm a writer, a curator, and currently the executive director of the Institute for Contemporary Art at Virginia Commonwealth University. And in our last conversation, Rob, I was the head of contemporary art at the Baltimore Museum of Art.
And I believe that at that time in 2020, I left the BMA in summer 2024. But at the time in which we were introduced to each other and developed a dialogue, I had just opened a show called A Movement in Every Direction, Legacies of the Great Migration, which I'm so proud to say that it just completed its national tour at the Chicago Cultural Center back in April. So yeah, a lot has changed since we last spoke.
Rob Lee: That's great. And this is one of the reasons why I was just so happy to, you know, be able to reconnect and have you say, yes, let's do it because, you know, we get sort of, we understand time a bit better. We understand sort of the progress.
We understand sort of where people are at and what they're thinking when it comes to their work and their just being around creativity and being around art. So in this role, because it's still new, you know, it's new. That's the thing. Like, you know, is it, we get like, is it 12 months? Is it like 18 months that we can still use new as sort of, I'm the new executive director here.
Jessica Bell Brown: Right. You know, I've been a milk that for as long as I can. There's something amazing about being new. Right. Like there's, you get the freedom of, you know, of a kind of fresh perspective and as you are kind of learning a place in a space, a place like in Richmond or learning the ICA, which is also a new institution relatively, he founded seven years ago. You know, there's something kind of amazingly optimistic about being at the beginning of something. So I want to milk that for as long as I can. So I'm about six plus months into my directorship.
Rob Lee: Yeah, you're still a baby here in this role. So as, you know, executive director and you have your, your curation side, you're still writing, you have, you know, various hats, if you will.
How do you approach sort of your, your roles from the role at, you know, ICA and VCU, which I like saying letters, but how do you approach your dual role of sort of this cultural leader and institutional builder within the university context?
Jessica Bell Brown: Yeah. Well, I think if I think anyone in a museum space has the, is a leader, let's just like site clear that. And when I was at the BMA, I was head of a contemporary art department, had a relatively large size team and I think was doing a lot of critical work in expanding the collection and developing the artistic, the contemporary artistic program and also, you know, doing a lot of repair work within the sort of wider contemporary art kind of community in Baltimore. And I thought, you know, after in reflection of my time at the BMA, there was so much about being curator that was not necessarily sort of, let's say, sort of captured in the job description, but really kind of essential, right? Like thinking about your relationship to history, to artists, to institution building, and to communities, first and foremost. And so I, in my work here at the ICA, I think I see it very much as like a kind of continuation of that sensibility. Yes, I'm, I will always be a curator.
I will always kind of be an art historian, but the levers of change and the levers of possibility are different for me in the director role. I am able to make quick and consequential decisions. I'm able to like build, you know, to open new portals for different kinds of folks to step into dialogue in relation with us. I think, of course, by nature of my newness, but also is, you know, by nature of the fact that when you're a director, you set the tone for your institution.
And I look at that as like setting the tone is really kind of modeling how we want to envision new futures for institutions, which in my mind is about, you know, being more anchored and moored in both a kind of local context, but also in a global context.
Rob Lee: Yeah, that's, that's good. And here's the other thing that you just did, which I love. See, this is the overachieverness there, right? I like this. I'm working on that. No, no, don't you dare. Don't you dare change that.
Jessica Bell Brown: Oh, no, I need to work on that. We can get into that later though.
Rob Lee: You definitely kind of like answer, and this is why I like to let the guest cook, answer one of those sort of like follow up questions to that. And yeah, I think, you know, sort of this notion of being able to, you know, have like understanding the community, understanding where you're working, understanding the sort of the thinking that goes into, let's say, a group of people as the artist in this scenario right here. I look at how I do this. I kind of just set the sort of risk. I set the approach.
I said, how I want to go about things and open it up and expand that. And when I talk to folks like you, who kind of see what's happening there, it's like, oh, that's a pretty broad array of folks that you're talking into and expanding how we maybe look at arts, how we look at culture. And I think, you know, the piece of being a leader is that, you know, like, I don't know if I could, I could work with other people, but I don't know if I could take that direction that is very fine and very sort of restricted of you could only talk to black artists, you can only talk to black visual artists.
It's just like, no, I'm very curious about the thinking and the insights from a wide array of people. And I think having, you know, sort of a title and a role that equips us to do that is important.
Jessica Bell Brown: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you asked me about the university context. And I perked up a bit because I'm wondering, is it, are we envisioning the university context as something that is like solidly or squarely different from any other art institutional context?
I don't know if that is the case. I think the remit at the end of the day is how do you present, how do you present a set of questions or ideas? How do you weave those things together so that they receive a kind of maximum reception and impact from the audiences that you're reaching, whether it's working in a civic museum or working on a college campus or, you know, working in a kind of Kunsthalle space. I think ICA is kind of a hybrid of both a college museum and a Kunsthalle because we don't have a collection. We're centered within an incredible university, VCU, Virginia Commonwealth University. And we're also operative in the kind of seat of power in Virginia.
Richmond is the capital city here. So there's a lot of, there are a lot of different sets of relations that we can address in our work here at the ICA. And as a new director and as a new Richmender per se, like I'm really interested in leaning into the listening part of our mission, like the ICA's mission is to listen, to create, and to make art public. So part of that engagement that we were talking about, maximizing engagement also means hearing. Who people are, where they're coming from, and how they connect or plug into our work.
Rob Lee: 100%. And I love that. And I think that definitely aligns back with sort of that, the newness there where it's just like, we're not beholden to this is the way we used to do things in the history. It's like, sure, you're aware of that. That's part of the listening.
I'm sure. But sort of like, as you were touching on, sort of that was who's the audience, who are the folks that we want to engage with and have dialogue with. And listening to that. And I find often when I have conversations and folks are coming in and they're taking over maybe an initiative where they're doing something new, I love hearing when it's like, I start off with a listening tour. I start to understand where we're working. Because, you know, and sort of what I try to do is that as well. So I just really value that. I think it gives you just a more informed position to come from.
Jessica Bell Brown: Yeah. But what if we what if we positioned listening as leading, you know, like that to me is like, hmm, like that's the space that that I, you know, want to see. I want to see like folks kind of dwelling in the kind of dwelling in the fact that we don't know all the answers. We don't have all the answers.
It takes connectivity in relation to build this like thing, whether you're podcasting space or the museum space or healthcare space, etc. So when you talk when you say, oh, I don't know if I could lead. I'm like, well, actually, Rob, you are inviting us to pause and reflect. And that's the first step of leadership, in my opinion.
Rob Lee: I agree with this opinion. You brought me over. You brought me over to your side.
Jessica Bell Brown: See, you're a leader, Rob.
Rob Lee: I'm just going to take all the sound bites. So I'm going to move into this next question. I was doing, you know, I felt like, look, I need to make sure I've gotten some research and some extra research.
I did like triple the normal research that I do to reengage or and have this this conversation. And one of the things that came up, I saw that ICA was described as it's pure porous. You describe that in this conversation open and able to take on risk. How does this idea of porosity shape the kinds of risk you're willing to take institutionally or creatively?
Jessica Bell Brown: Yeah, I I I love the word porous or porousness or porosity because it it implies a sense of openness. And it implies, not only does openness, it it it describes this condition of being both an arbiter of something, but also being able to be changed by something. And so, like, I love that because that's precisely what contemporary art is.
It's not it's such an open question, open ended question, or six sets of questions. And as as an arbiter of contemporary art, and as a kind of a forum for creativity at large, but especially for artistic expression, and creativity, porosity also means that we can shape shift, we can be nimble. And, you know, that that to me is not only a characteristic of who we are as an institution, but also a kind of roadmap for how we how we function or how we can function.
Rob Lee: Yeah, being open, like I have a have an interview is coming up later in a week. And, you know, this artist is a very, very controversial figure. And one of the things that comes up in his bio is sort of this this recent project he's on, and he stresses just being open. And he was frankly like sort of bored with performance art. And it's like, I want something that's risky.
I want something that feels open, not these parameters. And I'll say, hell yeah, man, exactly. And I think his risk is so important. Just in I think I'll make this comparison. And I like to pull out these sorts of comparisons.
Like, I enjoy movies, I enjoy like film, right? And you see a movie comes out and it's like, it didn't break a billion dollars. So we're risk averse, we're not going to like invest in this again. And I was like, I don't think that's the way that we should do that. I nature because we're so risk averse, I get it as dollars and cents and money matters. But how do we sort of navigate that and be open? And when someone does something like making a movie that how did we get here with a really low budget is so original, so new, because he took a risk.
Jessica Bell Brown: Yeah. Yeah, totally. And then in like, how do you lean into the limitations of or perceived maybe limitation? Well, they're actually not let me not mince words because actually there are real limitations, especially in this moment when, you know, funding for art and creativity is shrinking. Mobility is becoming more and more limited every day, especially for international artists. And, you know, being in a period of great uncertainty, right, putting all of that on the table.
The, any decision, any move being made is inherently risky, right, in this particular moment. But what I love about the art space, the space of artists is that our whole being is about lifting up and supporting and making possible things that might be perceived to be impossible, or, or for thinking innovatively and creatively around those limitations. Now, that to me, you know, is a part of the fiber of our work in terms of how we're working with contemporary artists. But at the ICA, we've even extended that sense of invitation beyond the discipline of contemporary art. So we have a community media center that supports the development, education and development of media and podcasting locally, nationally and globally. We are launching a chef and residents program at the ICA this fall. We have an incredible shop and cafe and kitchen space. And, you know, we're part of an ecosystem, a creative, flourishing ecosystem here in Richmond. And so being porous is about saying, how do we like meet artists of any stripe where they are, and how can we be of use and of service to them as an institution that is not beholden to a collection or a kind of complicated history that makes decision making belabored sometimes, or bureaucratic. I love that.
Rob Lee: I, you know, in some of the fights that I'm engaged in, and I was sharing with you before we got started, that, you know, doing education thing for this, because I really want sort of media, new media, podcasting and so on to be considered a part of the conversation. It's not the same as like a, you know, a painting or something along those lines, but it is something that's worthy of the attention because it's a low barrier of entry. People get really creative. And I find myself almost just yelling it. I was like, you know, their plays are done on podcasts sometimes. It's like theater.
Are you sure? I was like, I've been doing this for nearly 20 years from mountaintop. That's how I do it. And I think, you know, when, and as you're touching on, sort of, we're being inclusive of other things that folks are interested in, you know, sort of the media component, the, you know, the, the culinary art side of things, and that there are just in that word, in that term. And I think often when I have conversations with folks, and we talk about creativity, we talk about artistry, there are certain disciplines that are often left out. And it seems like because of that being open, it's like, no, no, no, let's, let's, let's broaden this. Let's broaden with this ideas and be inclusive in that way.
Jessica Bell Brown: Yeah, I know. I was having a conversation just today with one of our supporters and he uses phrase that I just love, love, loved. And it was the idea that like there are communities out there that are just, and I quote him now, waiting to be invited in. And like, wow, what a gift to have like that, that, that come up at a moment in which we're right now talking about porosity, because it's like, yeah, like, yeah, like, how, how can you create an unlimited sense of invitation around like the sets of activities that happen here, or to be a vessel or conduit to you know, all different kinds of expression. It's, it's exciting.
Rob Lee: I, I look at sort of this almost as a, a plug, and I think it kind of echoes this idea. You know, I think the year that you and I initially chatted was 2022. I did my first venture that summer into interviews outside of Baltimore. And it was a period of like trepidation, it's like, am I going to lose my audience?
Am I, am I selling it out or what have you? And I got some advice from someone that I admire in the podcasting space. You know, a lot of times you don't have someone to look up to. I was like, does this, does this make sense? And he was just like, you're, you're, you're doing your same work, maybe just in a different place. And this is part of that dialogue. This is part of sort of, it's a, it's a rap, it's part of your catalog, it's part of the full thing, it's part of your portfolio. And I think after doing and having that experience, I had so many insights, I had so many changes to my, my process.
I remember being there and walking through, and it just speaks to sort of the openness of being in a different place. I would always have a notepad on me. That's part of my process. Now I always have a notepad on me writing down sort of insights and observations just in the street. I get struck with this idea of, this is a good question. Let me, let me add that in.
Let me, let me write that. Or this is something that I saw and it finds its way into it. I've really just been in a different scenery, changed the way I was going about my work at the time. And one of the other goals in that, you know, because I've done it in different places. I've gone to Philly, I've gone to DC, New York, New Orleans, all of these sort of other places. If I kind of stayed in sort of the same circle in the same way that I was going about things, it would just kind of get stale and get old and it wasn't as open.
And upon doing these sort of like trips to other places, I was like, let's make this connection. Let's establish this. Let's have this sort of web.
And this is the sort of full circleness of it. There are several folks who I've interviewed in these different cities who've now relocated to Baltimore. Just, and they would hit me up, you'll rob, I moved here. What do you think about X, Y and Z? And I was like, I know you from Austin, Texas, bro. Like what are you saying? Yeah.
Jessica Bell Brown: But Baltimore is global, right? Like it's so amazing. Like Baltimore will always have a special piece of my heart and like, you know, like just not even just the creative community, but the kind of spirit of the city itself is just infectious and you root for Baltimore.
You root for I don't know. There's just such a, I think, refined, self-possessed, striving energy to Baltimore. And even if it's not a place where folks land permanently, like it's always a place that you can kind of pour back into. Yeah. People from all over the world come to Baltimore and engage in really exciting work and some stay, some leave, but I'm not surprised to hear you say that. Yeah.
Rob Lee: It's really great here. I'm going to move into this next question around just questions that come up. And I think we were kind of around that in this theme of openness. But so what kinds of institutional questions are at top of mind for you right now, whether around access, experimentation, and sort of those risks or the role of contemporary art in public life? I know that we've been talking about it, you know, in pieces here and there, but sort of that's the question I had in mind.
Jessica Bell Brown: Yeah, of course. I mean, I arrived at the ICA at a really, I think, critical juncture. I mean, there's so much excitement and possibility for us as an institution, but it's also a very critical time for artists right now. Like, these are, I don't know, it kind of reminds me of, I think, the most recently thinking about like the uncertainty of the moment in 2008, 2009, the sort of collision of Occupy Wall Street and, you know, at that time, the impending election hurricane Sandy when I was in New York, you know, so and, you know, what happens when you have these sort of moments of great social and political kind of uncertainty is that it's the time, you know, for artists to get to work and it's the time for us as institutions to kind of step up and hold space for where they want to go. And, you know, in thinking about where the ICA in particular, you know, I want to see us continue to put push forward this incredible rigorous artistic excellence. We commission new works, we work with artists to imagine new possibilities in their work.
And a lot of site specific commissioning as well, projects that would otherwise not happen. We are very much interested in leaning into the risk of the unknown. So there's that piece of it that I think is like so solid and exciting and is what we've kind of cut our teeth in. And then there's also, I think as we look at the bigger picture around institutions, especially museum institutions, is that our society is asking deeper questions of what institutions should be, who they are for, who they represent.
And has been for a long time, but I think we've had a number of crescendos to kind of really sit with like those questions. And so for me, the priority remains supporting, listening and engaging with artists, but it also is about are we, are we, as we think about institutions and not just the ICA, but just in general, are we really living in a living in our values? Are we, are we reaching the audiences that we say we want to reach?
The communities that we say we want to reach? And if the answer is anything close to maybe I don't know or no, then it's an invitation to really pause and reflect and figure out how we can do things a little differently. So that's maybe a little esoteric, but it's to me is like a part of like, you know, when you have this incredible platform and are equipped with the resources to make change and transformation and or for to see the space or be porous. You have a responsibility to really figure out like to figure out what what that calculus looks like to be accessible, engaging to be to have a sense of of an open invitation. Yeah, so that those are the things that kind of drive, you know, this period of leadership that I'm in right now here at the ICA.
Rob Lee: That's good. And I think one of the things that that stuck out and I was thinking of when you mentioned 2008 and sort of this is, I think, almost a concentrated five, almost six years worth of like these really large scale changes. And I just remember back in in 2022, we've had two elections, we've had different changes in sort of that the leadership in that way. We've had, you know, sort of COVID and all of these different things that have been really impactful for a large group and sort of all of us.
We've seen it in different ways. And I remember sort of starting this podcast in 2019. And it really didn't stop picking up any steam into 2020 and I was like, Oh, people are around. What's going to come out of it was sort of dialogues and sort of this turning into an archive really and me really thinking of how I treat the interviews, how I, you know, have a certain degree of care like there are, you know, we have Micah up here, right?
And there are folks who once they, you know, it was this period where you have to be on the truth in this art, this is like a rite of passage. You haven't been on it. I don't know yet. It's like upon graduation, see if you can get booked.
That's literally I've heard from several people. And being aware of that, I was like, let me be more mindful and curing of this might be one of the earliest interviews. This might be one of the only interviews that someone's asking a young artist about their work. So I need to be, I'm not a dad, but I need to act like a dad in some regards of let's frame. Let's us be protective in it. And that change again, how I was going about like, let me send these questions. Make sure these things are good. It's a professional thing and a standard for myself, but really putting that sort of extra effort because I said this over and over again. This is collaboration.
This is, you know, we're dad's partners right now. And that's the way that I look at a lot of these things and it's shaped and kind of helped me in how I evolved through doing this work. And part of that came out of I literally have those inflection points. We got to 2019 before all of this stuff. And then we have sort of now on how I'm going about it and seeing the importance of it too.
Jessica Bell Brown: Yeah, I totally skipped 2016 and 2020 as inflection points, but you but thank you for like folding that in because absolutely right. Markers of time in our work, you know, time flows in and out of our work.
Rob Lee: Yeah, and it's so important to really see where it's at. Like, and again, even doing these interviews and going back to and talking to folks, it's almost like the Richard Pryer bit is like, oh, I'm funny. I hope I'm interesting. I hope this is a good conversation and revisiting them and going deeper and sort of asking more and informed and better questions and really thinking through these things a bit deeper.
So, in that this is sort of like a almost a segue into this next question. So across your work, you know, as I don't want to neglect sort of the writing component, I want to neglect the curation cycle. We're talking about this ED portion a lot here, but how is your understanding of care towards artists, archives or audiences? Audiences have evolved considering your background in these various areas. How's that evolved over, let's say, the last few years? It's hard to set a time sometimes, but over the last few years.
Jessica Bell Brown: I wonder if I need more time to reflect on like an evolution narrative per se, but I what I can certainly say is that like my the sets of engagements that I have with artists with systems institutions, scholarship that has kind of expanded in the last few years. It's, you know, I think as in every phase of your of your life and career and life.
There's a there's an opportunity like recalibrate right like into kind of assess what's most important to me right now. I think when I if I like going back to 2008, I was a junior in college getting ready to graduate in an economy that was precarious and wasn't necessarily sure how to break into the museum field at that time. And fast forward to what 2016 my first big institutional gig at MoMA my concerns were really about canon correct canon correction and bringing in new voices and thinking expansively around the exhibition as a forum. Fast forward, you know, 20, 20, 18, 20, 19, 20, 20, 21, moving between institutional space and civic space, working with like people like, you know, Shirley, first lady, Shirley McCrae or Kamala Harris, you know, to sort of think about contemporary art and civic spaces and public seats of power. While I was doing the institutional work as well so it's a, you know, the sort of the platforms have only kind of expanded in, you know, recent years. But the premise of that work what undergirds it is really about accessibility.
It's about not being in a kind of ivory tower it's about widening the aperture on our work as, you know, cultural producers and thinkers and artists, etc. And now, you know, I am, you know, my birthday is next week and I'm like kind of like, oh my gosh. Interesting how you to be illogically you can kind of feel that solar solar return psychologically to I'm in a really amazing space of reflection as I, you know, what a little over six months in as a museum director I'm still in my late 30s and it's like I never would have imagined that, you know, years ago that I would be here. But now that I'm here it's like, well what do we do with it? Well, my concern is just like blowing that door open and like letting as many people in as possible. That's where my energies are right now.
Rob Lee: I love that and it comes through. I saw your face do that that Gemini. I got my brother.
Jessica Bell Brown: I thought I faced it.
Rob Lee: Yeah, it comes through and you know, like, you know, one of the things that for better or worse one of the things that I noticed I have these these conversations with folks, you know, people ask me like, do you know this person like how well do you know this person how long have you you guys have been friends for a long time like I talked to I talked to Jessica three years ago, something like that. We're talking again and it sort of that and it's like that I think what's embedded in it, I guess is the curiosity that that sort of interest and that's the thing that's always there for me.
It's just like, I'm curious about this and curious about the humanity, the person with the work, not just the name, not just the title. And that's the thing that has rang true through the entire duration of the nearly 900 episodes of this podcast. It's always sort of baked in and and you know, it's it's a driver and to your to your point like I'm just hitting 40 and like is this something that I thought I'd be doing a been a podcast. This is how it's 24 so going through these different stages.
I won't listen to those old episodes. I was like, oh, what you were talking about. But now being a person that's shy, you know, so to somewhat introvert all of that different stuff, right? But essentially doing this and talking with interesting people and having them sort of share their work and share their insights and share their story and I'm just serving as facilitator.
I didn't think this would be the thing, but I see the value in it and I enjoy it and that's that's I suppose is doing some good and that's what really matters, you know, to me. And you find that at a point in your work and you know, I was joking when I had the interview earlier today about my goal is only do interviews once a week and I was like that's about 50 52. And he's like, how many of you done I was like, I'll come in on 50 so far.
He's like, you should be wrapping up right now. I'm gonna do like 75 because the goal is to try to get as many of these stories out there as possible and to just keep adding to it because I think it's important for what's making up the world through this lens of arts, culture, creativity, all of that and the sort of social interest there, which making up how we're looking at the world right now at this moment and really capturing that.
Jessica Bell Brown: Mm hmm. I love that. And it's and the idea that like through it if we looked at every episode as a kind of pixel in the bigger picture, like, I think what what what what you find is that although we have different stories and different points of connection or or or histories, like the humanity, like you're basically kind of giving us a portrait of like, you know, a collective creativity and humanity. And that's what what connects us, you know, through through your work. So take all the flowers Rob.
Rob Lee: It's just an organ here is this wild. Thank you. And in that I got I got one last sort of real question that I want to run by you before I go into those rapid fire and sort of if you will, could we talk a little bit about any recent exhibition or program at the ICA that you know feels and bodies your vision. That's like, we're getting there. We're sort of covering it. This is really reflective of what my aims and what the directions is.
Jessica Bell Brown: Yeah, of course. I mean, I have to. I actually have to think about our recent relatively recent performance that we hosted of Carrie May wean's who you might know developed a relationship with as a part of a movement in every direction. But this performance actually at the ICA had happened before I started as director and it was just so serendipitous that maybe three weeks before I begin the role I came to Richmond to experience Carrie May's presentation of contested sites of memory at the ICA. And it was incredible because she had invited sort of various artists, musicians, performers, writers, Carl Hancock Rucks and Esther Armah and one of Hendrix, DeWyte Taylor.
She worked with Craig Harris has been leader and had this incredibly poetic and charged score vis-a-vis the performance that really, I think was so right for the ICA and so right for Richmond because it's about this kind of acknowledgement of history. And also it sort of infusing charged histories with new possibilities. And that it was so incredible. I felt like it was a gift for me to even be in the room. But also I told Carrie May afterwards I was like I feel like you kind of you cleared the space for me. Like it was this beautiful kind of I don't know almost even kind of spiritual kind of moment of connection for this community here and we all kind of walked away from that event just feeling like we were on a cloud. It's hard to describe but that to me if we can if we can bring people through our doors who have that kind of transformative connection and relationship to the art that they see the performances that they see the food that they taste in our cafe or the time that they they spend in our incredible building and in our on our campus and that to me is like what I what I want to sort of capture as we think about the next chapter of the ICA.
Rob Lee: That's wonderful and that's a good point to close out on. It's like you've done a podcast before. Shout out to you. I like that. I noticed that. I see. Look, I noticed the toes. I know those air sign toes.
I know it. Let me to one thank you and I'm going to keep thinking because this has been this has been great. I want to shift gears into the last portion. He's rapid fire questions.
You don't want to rethink these. You know, whatever the quick off the cuff answer is, you know, because you're a thinker. I've learned some new words in this conversation. So shout out to you. So here's the first one I got for you. If you could instantly pick up a new skill or hobby, what would it be? I would be.
Jessica Bell Brown: Oh, I would be like the Tower of Babylon and like, no auto languages. I think that would probably be my. Yeah, be a polyglot.
Rob Lee: I was going to call that the matrix question when he just upload a new skill.
Jessica Bell Brown: Yes. So actually that that is that is what I want. Actually, the ability to have new skills being implanted without, you know, in a split second, like that would be amazing.
Rob Lee: Is your beta update? So we talked about this a little bit early on in I think a little bit before we got started. What is your favorite way to unwind after a long day?
Jessica Bell Brown: Right now, long walks, long walks in nature preferably. But sidewalks will do. But yeah, I love decompressing by just walking and observing the world around me.
Rob Lee: I like to take a long walk. I take, take, take them in the morning. Usually when it's super dark and no one is outside. It's like, okay, now I'm thinking maybe I'll have a podcast. Usually an audio book, but it's just like, I'm able to think and then just, I don't know, I feel much better starting off the day that way for some reason.
Jessica Bell Brown: Yeah, I've been making trips to the James River first thing in the morning. Like I do walks in the morning and also in the in the evening when I can when I'm not when I'm not attending an event or something. But yeah, any you could find me at a reservoir, a lake, a river in a forest on a sidewalk in my neighborhood. I'm in there. Yeah, deeply restorative. I love it.
Rob Lee: I remarked on this early. You're, you're, I, whenever I see images of you, whenever we have a conversation, I think I've seen you maybe between that previous interview and this one. I think one other time we, I think I saw you, it was at an opening. I'm blanking on it, but it was at BMA and it's the glasses, right? So how many pairs of glasses do you have? I mean, do you have like different frames?
Like give me, give me the rundown. Cause I know some people, I have three. I have one at a circular. I call it like my art guy glasses. They're really tiny, right? And I put a scarf on sometimes and trying to have a certain aesthetic.
Jessica Bell Brown: You know, I go through my cycles. Like I used to, I, I cannot wear contacts. I cannot put my finger in my eyes. It's just not going to happen for me. And so I, I love just wearing glasses because it's just become, it's just yoked with my identity. I try to switch them up every couple of years. So I'm approaching year two with these amazing Ann and Valentin frames that I have on before I was wearing like a Schnuckel, like a kind of German, you know, always blue, some iteration of blue.
These are sort of navy blue. And then there's this amazing set of architects that have this brand called Bobo. And it's like one of those like, we only occasionally every five to seven years make these frames because it's not our day job. But they make a really great frame as well. But yeah, I guess I'm into, I think it's my thing. I think I'm into these might be your thing.
Rob Lee: I have, I have a few, I have a few bandanas that I use as Ascot's randomly. So that I got about 20 of them. So when I feel like I'm actually going to dress up, you just feel like, does that say it does? And I just try to make it make it my thing. But I have several of them trying to make a trademark.
Jessica Bell Brown: I love for you. Stop playing with them.
Rob Lee: Yes. So here's the last one. Here's the last one. I'm curious about some of the things that make folks, makes folks tick. And I'm really curious about this one. This is how I get over with people. What's a small thing that's recently like really made you laugh like really just courtiers like, okay, that's, that's really funny. That works.
Jessica Bell Brown: Probably was my son pretending to be a waiter at the restaurant that we were at last night and he kind of he's four and a half and he got up with his clipboard that has had his coloring sheet on it. And he said, okay, what are we having today? And I'm like, oh my God, you are hilarious.
Also, no, sit down and eat your food. Kids make me, I don't know, just their purity and like, you know, their wit. Yeah, I think they're just kind of not jaded by the world and can therefore tap into humor and levity. I just love that about kids.
Rob Lee: It's good. It's good. That's really funny. I think even like at the table at a restaurant, which has that sort of make sure you order properly. This isn't a different language. Get that right. I do on occasion and I want my nephew to get it and technically I got a grand kid, which feels really weird because I don't have any kids. So we'll talk about that at a different time. But I already know I'm going to, he's an Aquarius too. So I already know I'm going to inject. That's what I am. One of the things that I do that I want to pass on to him is when I'm at a very snooty restaurant, I do a dramatic reading of the menu. It always hits.
Jessica Bell Brown: Give me an example. Okay.
Rob Lee: Here's your look at page one. We have the Bronzino smoked and stuffed with an artisanal crab meat. And I really, I maintain that voice and I go through the entire menu.
Jessica Bell Brown: I love that. I'm going to borrow that.
Rob Lee: There we have it. We have it. We'll close on that.
Jessica Bell Brown: Close on performance. Close on performance.
Rob Lee: Yeah. So with that, there are two things I really want to do as we close out here. One, I want to again thank you for coming back on to the podcast. We're both wearing black, but thank you for coming back on to the podcast. It's truly a treat and an honor to have you back on. And I want to invite and encourage you to share with the listeners any final thoughts, words and where they can like stay up to date with all the happenings. I see a and all the happenings. Jessica Bell Brow. So the floor is yours.
Jessica Bell Brown: Yeah, of course. Thank you so much, Rob. It's been a pleasure being on the podcast. Keep up with our work at the ICA at ICA VCU.org. Look out for our exhibition season, which opens this June, June 27th. We're opening a show curated by Sarah Berry Moses called Aida that looks at Haitian cosmologies through the lens of contemporary art. And then later this fall we open Lily Cox Richard, Disquiet in the Sand in Julian Cruze, August 15th. So come celebrate with us this next season, August 23rd. I think by the time that this podcast drops, there'll still be time for you guys to come out to Richmond and see what we're all about at the ICA.
Rob Lee: And there you have it folks. I want to again, thank the great Jessica Bell Brown for coming back on to the podcast. Give us some insights. Tell us about her work at ICA, telling us about just her insights on curation and sort of her vision moving forward for the Institute for Contemporary Art at Virginia Commonwealth University. And for Jessica Bell Brown, I'm Rob Lee saying that there's art, culture and community. In and around your neck of the woods, you just have to look for it. Thank you.
