Welcome to the Truth in This Art, your source for conversations at the intersection of arts, culture, and community. I am your host, Rob Lee. Today, I am super excited to be in conversation with my next guest. She is a horror scholar and freelance writer known for her work at the intersection of black feminism and monster theory. She writes the Fangoria column, Eaten Alive, where she explores the devouring other in horror, film, myth, and literature.
Rob Lee:Her work has been featured in media outlets including Bright Wall, Dark Room, Liquid Blackness, and Cinespeak. Additionally, she has appeared on the Shudder docuseries, horror's greatest and the 101 scariest horror movie moments of all time. Please welcome Lea Anderson. Welcome to the podcast.
Lea Anderson:Hi. How's it going, everyone? Thanks for having me.
Rob Lee:Thank you. And, this is this is gonna be cool. And as as I'm one to do, there's, certain themes and certain things that people look for in this podcast or they've grown accustomed to. I use certain elements visually, some of the clips on social. And because you're wearing your glasses, I have to thank you for wearing your glasses.
Rob Lee:Too many times, these these, contact lenses come in place, and I don't get to see my 4 eyed brothers and sisters. So
Lea Anderson:Oh, yeah. No. Screw that. Screw those contact lenses. I'm never not one for touching my eyeballs.
Lea Anderson:Can do it if it's, like, you know, facing down some errant eyeliner or, like, an eyelash or something. But, no, the the everyday thing, folks are crazy.
Rob Lee:Yeah. Exactly. Her. I was wondering if you were gonna take it and you took the bait, so thank you. So I I I would like to, invite you to to introduce yourself, and I like to, you know, ask the the guest to do that because I think often we have folks come on and then there's this sort of byline, and it's very very concise and very this and very that.
Rob Lee:But, ultimately, I think certain pieces are left out of that, who the person is, the the the essence. There have been times I'll interview someone. It's like, I'm a writer that boxes. I'm like, that's not in your bio. So I wanna invite you to introduce yourself.
Lea Anderson:For sure. So my name is Leah Anderson, or as we just said. I am a horror scholar horror and gothic scholar, freelance writer, the the unusual thing that is not in my bio that, most people most of the folks who follow me now or who have become familiar with my work now don't know is that my background is actually in poetry. It's actually in poetry and literature, and that really informs a lot of the way that I approach films and film analysis. So, that I I yeah.
Lea Anderson:I take a pretty academic lens to, to horror films and to and to the gothic, whether it's, like, gothic cinema or gothic literature, or myth or folklore, etcetera. And that's mostly informed by black feminist abolition, and that's, like, really core to the way that I approach it. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's the, off bio version.
Rob Lee:I love it. I love it. And that that like, now there's I almost wanna go back through and rewrite my questions for the 4th time now with that. So
Lea Anderson:thank you, and I appreciate it. Great that I I could I couldn't all of this they get into all of that. They get into all of that.
Rob Lee:So I I like to go back, and and thank you for the the intro. I'd like to go back, and and kinda like set that early stage. Were there a piece of media, whether it be, you know, film, whether it be a a book or story, anything along those lines that got you into horror, that got you into sort of like gothic stories? And, you know, do you return to that that original piece? So it's a 2 part question.
Rob Lee:Like, is there one that originally, like, hooked you? You know, and I'm thinking about a specific movie when I say hooked you, but and one that you've maybe returned to for that nostalgia or for that thrill.
Lea Anderson:Yeah. So definitely and maybe not maybe not the one I think you're alluding to. Oh. But, yes. So the okay.
Lea Anderson:So in terms of horror, I have, I come from a very kind of, like, mixed background. My family is very, like, multiracial, multinational, multireligious, multiethnic, etcetera. And so there's, like, a lot of difference even amongst even within the family unit. But the thing that everyone could always come together over was horror films. Everyone in my family loves horror.
Lea Anderson:So what hooks the thing that I really latched onto and the film that I sort of credit a lot as, like, this is why I am the way that I am, is gremlins. It's gremlins. Really? I I was obsessed with gremlins as a child. Like, 5 years old.
Lea Anderson:This is even, like, pre blockbuster when we would go to, like, our local neighborhood VHS shop and, you know, independently owned. And that was the film that I picked out every every week. My family members hated me. Everyone had to rewatch Gremlins 5,000,000 times. And, yeah, I maintain I I I stick to that.
Lea Anderson:I watch Gremlins at least a couple times a year, usually around Christmas. For some reason, that it never entered my brain as a Christmas movie even though, like, it very much so is. But, no, it was the, the chaos and, like, the jubilee of the chaos. I loved it. It's also a very anti capitalist film.
Rob Lee:This is true. This
Lea Anderson:is true. And I think that, like, definitely, there's a lot of the stuff that I was drawn to when I was really young, like, horror films and, like, like, punk rock, that have these, like, you know, leftist ethos attached to them. And so that definitely influenced me in the way that I, like, think about the world and approach art in general. But the other the other stuff was, Blade was huge in my house.
Rob Lee:You know? Yeah.
Lea Anderson:We were all about it. My dad loved, like, the blaxploitation beats. You know? Even though it like, me and my older siblings didn't, like, necessarily get that. We weren't raised on blaxploitation films.
Lea Anderson:But, you know, you love, like, the the fucking sexy ass vampires and, like, the rave scene. I mean, my god. It it's just it's still a perfect, perfect film. And I I return to it constantly. And then the the craft was also a big one.
Rob Lee:Makes custom. Yeah.
Lea Anderson:Yep. Yep. My mother is, like, you know, very witchy. And so that was the first rated r film that she allowed me to watch. It was not the first rated r film I had, like, seen, obviously.
Lea Anderson:My my brother showed me The Exorcist when I was, like, 6. And it came it came with, like, what what I now realize or now have interpreted as, like, a profound life lesson, to laugh at fear. To, like, you know, when you're coming up against something that's really scary is to, like, lean into the absurdity and try to find the comedy and just, like, laugh in the face of it. Like, a lot of wisdom from, you know, some kids. And then the last thing was was a book.
Lea Anderson:Was, when I was in 6th grade, I had a friend who was a who was in the grade ahead of me. We were both really into into Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Huge Buffy fans. And she handed me a it it's not not the original Phantom of the Opera written by Gaston Moreau. It was a, like, renovelization of it that gives more of, like, the Phantom's background history and then re narrates the, like, contents of the original Phantom of the Opera that the play is based on and what, like, is kind of the version of the story that everyone kind of remembers.
Lea Anderson:But I loved it. I loved it. I think I borrowed I think I had this book for maybe, like, 2 weeks, and I think I read it, like, 3 times. And then it it was out of print, so it took a long time. But, like, years later, I found another copy of it.
Lea Anderson:And, you know, they're at home. Still have it. But, yeah, that really set off the, like, gothic literature aspect.
Rob Lee:I I love it. I I love that, those answers. I like the I wanna say, I guess, the household I was in, we really didn't watch too much horror. I'm the the horror guy. And as I was saying earlier, I'm a large man.
Rob Lee:So as an actual word, large man. And for probably 5 years in a row, because it was the cheapest alternative, I wore, like, a Jason mask with a hoodie and
Lea Anderson:Hell, yeah.
Rob Lee:The big butcher knife. It was like, oh, this giant is just walking towards us. So it was that. And I remember asking my parents at one point, me and I would do, like, hey. We're gonna have the the parties and all of this stuff.
Rob Lee:And, you know, you're gonna stay upstairs. Everybody's gonna put a movie on for you to watch. What was the movie as a 3 year old that you had me watching? Probably, Friday 13th.
Lea Anderson:I was gonna say yeah.
Rob Lee:So I don't know if there's a connection there, but maybe. Yeah. But, yeah, the and I think and and then this is, you know, just sort of, like, a take. I always was into the the slasher stuff from that era. Like, I was born in 85, so I'm just, like, gravitating towards that stuff.
Rob Lee:And part of the thing for me that I'm looking for all the time is the humor, is the the sort of, like, okay. This is this is a wild take, or you're not going that now. You're not saying that now.
Lea Anderson:The slashers have so much of that. There's, like, there's so much humor in it. But but then I I I struggle with it because it's like, is it actually that like, I think Texas Chainsaw Massacre 2 is so fucking hilarious. But it's also in moments, like, extremely violent. And sometimes I'll, like, forget.
Lea Anderson:Like, the violence won't permeate. It'll just be the humor, and then I'm like, alright. You're sounding crazy.
Rob Lee:Right. Right. And the the last thing I'll say before I move into this next question, I had this this period where, you know, it just you go through things and you're like, what am I doing? And I find, like, media helped me get out of it. And it was 2 things I remember watching.
Rob Lee:One had and this is gonna sound ridiculous, but it had some of those gothic elements in there, which I really, really dug. And it was, I think, Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood. And Interesting. And so so that's in there. And and it's another reason why that and this other one sticks out.
Rob Lee:It's TV. You know, it's kinda corny, but it was on for a very long time. Love Supernatural. Right? And my partner, she'll just say, because it's about brothers.
Rob Lee:It's always that little bit, and it's it's true, but also I'm looking for these things. Like, oh, there's demons. Oh, this is kinda dark. And having no one to watch it with is just like, you're the guy that's interested in horror and the freaking blood and guts and demons and all of that different stuff. So not really having that sort of connection, but really rewatching and looking as a in in some ways as a palate cleanser for for that sort of media.
Rob Lee:And those things have had me hooked and then continually, you know, hook me and, obviously, the other hook, you know, Katie Ben. Yeah. Yeah.
Lea Anderson:Yeah. We could never forget him.
Rob Lee:Okay. I I'm not gonna say the name anymore, though.
Lea Anderson:No. No. No. No. No.
Lea Anderson:Stop playing.
Rob Lee:So which which kinda brings me to this question, what are the stories that you're truly interested in? Like, having the academic lens, having this very robust, like, background, in this sort of area, which I think in oftentimes, like, horror and that that that area, that genre of storytelling doesn't get its due. And I think the genre, you know, of horror, it's had multiple subgenres, obviously. But, you know, also, it's yeah. I guess it goes across multiple things.
Rob Lee:Like, you know, they're the term horror is used kinda loosely at times, I think. Mhmm. But then also, it's just like a horror movie isn't just a horror movie. It's a way to maybe comment on race or maybe comment on these other areas. So regardless of theme, what what are the stories that resonate with you in using horror, I guess, as the framework?
Lea Anderson:Yeah. So, for me, I am the way that I I also use horror, like, very loosely in life. It's like a constant thing between my partner and I where it's like it has a meaning. There sometimes you push it too far. I I don't always agree.
Lea Anderson:For me, horror distilled a lot of the most kind of, like, essential anxieties of of being human. And that's what I'm really interested in. I like to be surprised. I like to be surprised by narrative. I like to be surprised by form.
Lea Anderson:I like, you know, I like when when the filmmakers, director, writer, like everyone involved has have a firm enough grasp on the storytelling and, like, the sort of tropes and cliches and the beats of it that they can then take it and sort of use that to challenge viewers and to challenge their expectations, in ways that I don't think any other genre is really capable of doing. But what I'm really looking for in everything in, like, any kind of media, any art that I consume is the humanity. It's like, where is the humanity in it?
Rob Lee:That's good. That's good. Because, yeah, I think those are the ones that that stick and sort of the I think the intent. And I think maybe maybe there is that that overlap of horror and comedy, because I think sort of the reaction in those things are they're they're you can't say, oh, I'm gonna laugh at this because it's funny. It's like it's almost involuntary.
Rob Lee:It's like you're watching something. You get a jump scare. It's a it's a reaction versus like, oh, I'm supposed to be scared right now. You know, you can't do that.
Lea Anderson:Yeah. Yeah. It's like, sometimes, you know, I wanna be made to feel like a prey animal to, like, exercise that. You know? But the the the human aspect I don't know.
Lea Anderson:That's what I look for in art, period. It's like, where are we challenging ourselves? Like, what being a human being is so complicated and so nuanced and so messy. And I feel like a lot of, I like, approaching storytelling, like, craft wise.
Rob Lee:Sure.
Lea Anderson:There's no genre that is ever really, like, truly one genre. There's always the conventions of other genres get pulled in in different ways, and that's what creates the tension that makes you want to watch the thing in the first place. Right? Because it's like, if everyone's happy and safe and good and makes all the right choices, then there's no we're not watching anything. Right?
Lea Anderson:Like like, there has to be a conflict. And so other genres will incorporate horror in different terms. Right? So, like, so like a romantic comedy, for instance, or like a straight romance. The horror that gets introduced is always, like, the lover is not going to choose you, or, like, the lover might die, or is, like, off to war or whatever.
Lea Anderson:Sure. And that's well, it's not horror in the sense of, like, a monster or zombie apocalypse or whatever that's coming in. It's still like, we all know that. Like, all of us who every anyone who has experienced any kind of love knows the devastation that comes with, like, that loss, the loss of a loved one of any kind of relation. And that is a kind of embodied horror.
Lea Anderson:And that's, like, a profound aspect of humanity. And I think a lot of the time, we sort of look to, kind of deaden that or, like, treat pain, treat suffering, treat grief as a kind of, like, illness that we need to cure. But then you don't get all the other stuff. Right? It's like like pain and grief and suffering, the dark is needed for, like, the light to pop.
Lea Anderson:Right? It's like it's a it's a it's tension. That's just what tension is. It's like these things rubbing up against each other. Does that make sense?
Lea Anderson:Am I rambling too much?
Rob Lee:No. No. No. You're you're good. It does.
Rob Lee:It does. And, you know, it's it's 2 things when you're it it I I thought of where, you know, we get and it's not the the same it's not the the genres that popular, like, sort of like crossover and, you know, capitalistic genre. But I think of when the initial pitch or or I was became initially aware of Duke Mutants for sake of argument, I was just like, oh, okay. Another comic book movie. And then it was like, but this is these elements happening, there is this demon spirit that's haunting this, like, you know, psych ward with these mutants in it.
Rob Lee:I was like, oh, I'm in. I was like, this is sort of like this area that, you know, you have that fatigue in, but then it's just like we added something in. It's like you're doing something different in it. And, you know, it didn't really execute it well, but at least the intent was there to maybe cross these these different genres. Or even something I I watched recently, Love, Lies, Bleeding.
Rob Lee:You know, I was hooked early on. I was like, oh, body horror? And I was like, women bodybuilding in the eighties. Okay. Yeah.
Rob Lee:You you have me in getting invested in the characters. I was like, come on, girl. You can't have that happening. I'm I'm sitting there like, wow. And I was like, where's my singlet, my stringer?
Rob Lee:I'm trying to work with her, do some push ups. It's it's it's wild, but you, you know, have the notion of this is gonna be violent in some spots. These are not particularly good people, and it's a it's a body horror movie.
Lea Anderson:Yeah. Yeah. It's, Love Life's Bleeding is, like, a great reference point for that because it it, like, really challenges a lot of how we have been sort of conditioned to think about romance or, like, you know, if you're, like, around in our age group and you went through the, like, you know, the romantic comedy era of, like, in, like, the nineties and the aughts and whatnot, then, you know, Love Lives Bleeding is a real challenge to to a lot of that. You know? But it's still so romantic.
Lea Anderson:Even though right. It's like, are these folks making the best choices? Are all of their choices altogether justifiable? Do you want to emulate them? Maybe not.
Lea Anderson:Or maybe you do. Or maybe you do in the sense of, like, in the sense of surrender surrendering to the ways that love is really challenging. Mhmm. And it's not necessarily meant to be a comfortable experience. And I don't mean that in the sense of, like, struggle love where it's, like, the struggles like, I I I don't mean that.
Lea Anderson:But I mean, like, you're going to be triggered, and you've gotta be willing to, like, work through that with someone.
Rob Lee:Yeah. It's it's sort of this thing where, you know, you you have these things always think about, like, am I gonna do the thing that Ed Harris did with his hair in that movie? I I don't know. So we'll see. But, it is sort of this thing where you you're in maybe your relationship or you're you you kinda think of like, k, what would I do just to make sure this person is good?
Rob Lee:And it's like, oh, right. This is what they're talking about in this movie. This is how far it could go. Oh, right. I'd burn down a village for this person.
Rob Lee:I'm not that person normally.
Lea Anderson:Right. Right. Exactly. Exactly. I think we see that, like, interview with the vampire.
Lea Anderson:It does a really great job of, like, it's it's kind of a different version of the same story. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Lea Anderson:Sometimes the things that we'll do for love are actually pretty fucking horrific, and maybe we shouldn't.
Rob Lee:I know someone who is gonna very much enjoy this interview. Because, well, several people, obviously. But one person
Lea Anderson:in particular, whoever In particular, like in particular. Yeah. That, like, that access between romance and horror and gothic romance is really I spend a lot of time in there, and I think about that a lot, both on, like, an artistic level in terms of, like, film, but also politically in terms of, like, political storytelling and how these same tensions factor in on this, like, different scale. Romance plays, like, a really vital and terrifying role in really who we determine is of value to live. And that's, like, some fucked up shit.
Lea Anderson:Right?
Rob Lee:Right. Right. What would you do for love? So I got this question because I I again, in in staying in this sort of, like, the the earlier stages, I know we were going into it there for a second. I was trying to show off my chops, you know, because it's sparring against the academic here.
Lea Anderson:No sparring. No sparring. We're just having a conversation.
Rob Lee:What was the the first film that maybe you analyzed, or you, like, row for? Really, you you you you pick through through sort of the scholarly lens that you felt was a breakthrough of presenting your unique perspective. I do outside of this, I do a movie review podcast.
Lea Anderson:And a
Rob Lee:lot of times I have folks that look like you and I on there. And I remember when, you know, the one I did with my partner, we did, Signs of the Lambs. Right? And
Lea Anderson:Mhmm.
Rob Lee:Learned that Hannibal Lecter's fictional biography, his birthday and minds are the same. So I'm like, hell yeah, let's get it. And But So she she threw in one of what I felt was one of the blackest questions possible. It was about the cake that Clarisse got. She was like, how dry was it?
Rob Lee:Was it a buttercream or has nothing to do with the movie?
Lea Anderson:See, these are the important questions, though. Characterization.
Rob Lee:But it's it's one of those perspectives that's unique to that that podcast, and it's minutia, and it's fun. It has nothing to do with anything else in the movie other than sort of you see this dry cake at the end. What are we doing here? Is this really
Lea Anderson:Does it not have anything to do with the movie? Because there's a lot of stuff about, like, taboo appetites there. Oh, okay. Oh,
Rob Lee:okay. Go on, Skyler. Go off.
Lea Anderson:Yeah. No. Cannibalism is, like, one of my favorite things to talk about. But but answering your question before I go on, like, fucking tangent, I think so there were 2 films. There were 2 films, that I think that applies to.
Lea Anderson:The first was Midsummer. In 2020, I wrote an analysis that was published by Horror Homeroom on the on the white aesthetics of Midsummer and the work that it was doing in the film that I felt. It was one of those like, it came out of what you know, a lot of things for me come out of that, like, I'm looking for this perspective and not seeing it anywhere. And so there's nothing else to do but write at yourself. Right?
Lea Anderson:So so, yeah. I was looking at, like, the ways that Sunlight and the, that kind of, like what what would we call it? It wasn't like cottagecore didn't exist then, and I don't think that it necessarily, like, suits that. But, it's sort of, like, in that wheelhouse. Everyone everyone in the, what what was it called?
Lea Anderson:I can't remember the name of the folks. But everyone in the cult. Everyone in the cult is white. Everyone's blondes. Everyone's wearing these, like, white dresses and, like, suits.
Lea Anderson:And they've got this, like, pretty flower embroidery. And it's part of what lures the characters in. Right? It's part of what makes them feel safe. The fact that, like, the sun is always shining.
Lea Anderson:You know? All all of that is meant to sort of lure you into this feeling of safety. And then as they start, like, picking folks off and who are they picking off? They're not picking, like like, the the the group of academics and then Florence Pugh's character. It's been so long since I watched them, like, winking on their character names.
Lea Anderson:They pick off, like, the black the darker skins characters first. Right? So there's, like, that interracial couple. Was it were they an interracial couple? I can't remember.
Lea Anderson:I'm very foggy on, like, on the film right now.
Rob Lee:You got silent. Those were the some of the earlier ones. Yeah.
Lea Anderson:Yeah. Yeah. So they pick them off. And then, like, the stupid dude who's, like, super abrasive with the dark hair, they pick him off. You know, they they they pick off all of the colors that all the colors.
Lea Anderson:All the characters who are of color in to all the degrees until the only two characters that are left are these 2, like, very Aryan
Rob Lee:Yeah.
Lea Anderson:Individuals. Right? And Christian, you know, there's the rape, which was like I can't remember if there was much discourse about that at the time, but I don't remember any of, like, are we even acknowledging that that was a rape scene or not? But again, it's like part of the trick of the film is that, like, it's really asking you to challenge where you assign feelings of safety and where you assign feelings of fear. And so this, like like, Christian is an asshole.
Lea Anderson:Right? Like, we hate this character.
Rob Lee:Right.
Lea Anderson:We he has written for us to hate him. And so we don't feel bad when shitty things happen to him. Right? Midsummer is like the holy grail of the, like, the good for her category Right. That we've come up with.
Lea Anderson:But, like, is it really good for her? You know? Like, what if you are if you're feeling if your feelings of, like, positivity and safety require the elimination of lots of different people. If the pedestal that you live on is erected on a pile of dead bodies,
Rob Lee:is
Lea Anderson:that, like, actually aspirational?
Rob Lee:Right.
Lea Anderson:And I think that a lot of folks kind of missed that. I think a lot of folks were looking specifically at the gender dynamics. Right. And because of that, they missed all of this other stuff that was happening in the background. The other thing about, like, the aesthetic of Midsummer and, like, the clothing, the outfitting in particular, is that that is a that is a viable aesthetic.
Lea Anderson:You know? You can walk into any Free People and find dresses that look like the dress like, the stuff that that those folks were wearing. And so, again, it's familiar. It's familiar to the audience, so it feels safer. And, yeah, I think Ari Aster was, like, really, really playing with folks' emotions in that way, and a lot of people failed that test.
Rob Lee:Yeah. I I I remember your your your point around sort of, like, I I I I put it in these, I guess, simpler, like, terms in in my head. The way I see it is, like, you're right. Like, on on these bodies, this is this is what we're doing? So do you wanna aspire for okay.
Rob Lee:Cool. And I remember being in in theaters. I'm pretty pretty good at remembering, a movie, especially if I have a reaction to it. And I'm sitting there and I'm watching that particular scene. I was, like, looking around, and I'm kinda, like, seeing, like, yeah.
Rob Lee:And I was like, word? And then the same thing he is there when, you know, my man becomes Yogi. And I was like, oh.
Lea Anderson:So And
Rob Lee:I was just like, sure. But also, this is this is rough. This is wild. And just people are into it because of the, I guess, revenge or good for her. It's just Right.
Lea Anderson:Right. Yeah. A lot of folks put it into vengeance snare into vengeance terms, which is like the this is a long tradition in horror. Right? Particularly, like, amongst slashers and whatnot, or just rape revenge.
Lea Anderson:The rape revenge category is a category. And that's all it's I I folks have lots of, like, complicated feelings. There's a lots of different kind of analysis about that. But, yeah, this was not to me, I saw in this a very particular racialized aspect that was, like, a huge part of the of of the film's visual. Like, what it's the visual language of the film
Rob Lee:Yeah.
Lea Anderson:Was designed in such a way with, like, so much specific attention to these kinds of details that you have to prescribe meaning to it. Because obviously, the filmmakers were. Right. And yeah. It's like, I think it's really easy.
Lea Anderson:Sometimes we'll kind of, like, we'll have one analysis or we'll watch it the one time, and then that story becomes the story in our heads. But then I think I think with that film, a lot of folks went back and kind of were like, maybe wait a second.
Rob Lee:Right.
Lea Anderson:But, yeah, the the the other film, because you're gonna rant about this forever. The other film was a short film by Mariana Diallo, that was titled Hair Wolf. And I saw it for the first time at the I think I think a Schwartz Film Festival at BAM in Brooklyn. And it blew me away. It was like it was the first it was the first in in the program, and I lost my fucking mind.
Lea Anderson:I didn't I didn't regain my mind until, a few, there were a few other films. And then there was another story, I can't remember the name of it, That was about Nina Simone and was, like, so fucking incredible. I should find that, but that's an aside. Anyway, the hair wolf is another one that kind of, like, hits these blaxploitation notes in beautiful ways. And what it's really doing again, going back to that, like, where do we assign safety and where do we assign fear and anxiety?
Lea Anderson:Assign safety to, like, the black salon.
Rob Lee:Mhmm.
Lea Anderson:And then the monsters, the zombies are, like, these white appropriators who are, you know, like, coming in and try and, like, banging on the glass. And one of the one of the most brilliant movements in it that I thought was, like, so fucking hilarious. Instead of them, like, moaning, like, brains, she has them moaning, brains.
Rob Lee:That's good. That's good.
Lea Anderson:And they're, you know, clawing at the glass doors. It's ridiculous. But, it tells a really beautiful and I think really profound story for black women about about love, about the way that we love ourselves and the way that we love each other, and the ways that, like, you know, internalize racism and internalize misogyny and, like, all of this stuff really threatens that love. But the love is, like, what saves everyone at the ends. Or does it?
Lea Anderson:You'll have to watch.
Rob Lee:Yeah. I I have it queued up or what have you. I I think Criterion has it, so I'm gonna be
Lea Anderson:Yeah. I think criterion and Max had it at one point. I don't know if it's still on there, but definitely criterion. Anyway, y'all should check it check it out. I love it.
Rob Lee:You're you're giving me homework. So Yeah.
Lea Anderson:Gotta step up someone with some homework.
Rob Lee:So be before I move into this this well, the, another question, I wanna, like, touch on, you know, monster theory. So tell us what that is because I it feels like it's a movie. It feels like it's something I should be watching, but I'm sure it's deeper than that. But so can you define what Monster Theory is and what it means to you and how it influences your your analysis, your your work?
Lea Anderson:Yes. So monster theory monster theory is defined as a method of reading cultures by the monsters they engender. That's a direct quote from the article is titled monster culture 7 theses, and it's from a book called monster theory reading culture or reading culture monster theory. I think reading culture monster theory by Jeffrey Jerome Cohen, who is now the dean of humanities at Arizona State. But he sort of consolidated and created this, like, clear methodology of of interpreting, of reading, cultures, and societies based on the anxieties and fears and tensions that are reflected in the monsters that they create.
Lea Anderson:So he put forth 7 theses that together sort of culminate in in this methodological framework for approaching monsters, specifically. But then when you start to think about, like, alright, monsters. The the amount what what comes forth when you center the monster is no longer like we're just in the realm of horror films or gothic literature. We are going back to before civilization. Like, human beings have been telling stories about monsters for as long as we have existed.
Lea Anderson:For longer than the written word as a tool has existed. Yeah. And this is, like, one of the things about about Cohen. This is a medieval scholar. You know?
Lea Anderson:This is not, like, a horror scholar. What like like, this is he he's in a different realm, but still, like, circles back to all the stuff that's super, super relevant to reading and interpreting horror films and gothic literature because those are the evolutions of the myths and the lore and the stories that we were telling for 1000 of years before we invent before we invented the printing press and motion pictures.
Rob Lee:Yeah. Thank you.
Lea Anderson:Yeah. So that definition. There's also, like, a bunch of theorists that kind of fall into that. Cohen, like, coined the language. But Jack Halberstadt is also, like, super critical to my work.
Lea Anderson:He published skin shows, gothic horror, and the technology of monsters back in, like, the late nineties. And, introduced this idea of the monster as a form of narrative and social technology that is, like, also really critical to the way that I approach things. Then there's, like, Barbara Creed who wrote The Monstrous Feminine. And, like, when you really when you start to center the monster as, like, the center focal point of of your analysis, then you realize that every major philosopher and thinker has, like, worked through this. Has some kind of theory about monsters and the monstrous.
Lea Anderson:And so that's what I've been like for the last too many years of my life. More than a decade of my life. What I have been, you know, waist deep in is is all of that thinking. And now, like, what I do is reframe it through a black feminist lens. And, like, what do so, like, the book that I'm working on right now, I have come up with my own 7 theses.
Lea Anderson:And and we're working through this. So coming soon.
Rob Lee:Look. You're you're you have a standing invite to come back. So here's where we're at. This draft.
Lea Anderson:I'll be back. I'll be back. Hopefully, one day, you'll be able to buy it if I ever finish it.
Rob Lee:So and thank you. And so I wanna talk a little bit about, Fangoria as well. So writing for Fangoria, and you contribute to this, like, ongoing dialogue about about horror. And could you introduce, you have a column, Eat in the Lie. Yes.
Rob Lee:Could you, introduce that, and what drew you to the the concept of the devouring other?
Lea Anderson:Yeah. So, I what I really love in horror like, folks have their own favorite types of subgenres. Right? I really love monsters. Monsters are my jam, And particularly, like, devouring monsters.
Lea Anderson:It started because I was really into, like, pearl monsters, like, feminine monsters. There's, like, so many in, you know, like, the mid 20th century and so on. And it kind of evolved from there. But I I a lot of the horror discourse for a lot of the years that I went like, through the 20 tens, a lot of the a lot of what folks were kind of saying was that, like, the monster terrifies because it embodies, like, the dissolution of borders. It evokes, like, fears of trespass and all of that.
Lea Anderson:And that didn't, like, quite ring true to me. It was about, like, what does that actually what do we believe trespass and the dissolution of borders to indicate? And what we believe that to indicate is consumption and dissolution. Yeah. That if so, like, in the, even in, like, the most so, like, I think of, like, home invasion films as being, like, the most overt iteration of the, like, the monster terror the the monster terrifies because it trespasses.
Lea Anderson:But it's like, not just the trespass. It's not just that folks are going to enter your house. It's that they're going to enter your house and, like, kill you. Right? Like, that's what you're actually afraid of.
Lea Anderson:We watch, like, the hills have eyes. The, like, the the inside outside dichotomy and, like, going into the outside and going into these, like, outside outer realms where there's, like, these devouring cannibal people. It's like, if we're too far into the outside, they're going to eat us. We're, like, in monster territory. So I became, like, really interested in and, like, thinking about eating and being eaten as, like, conditions of humanity.
Lea Anderson:As, like, ontological conditions of humanity. Ontology for those who maybe don't know is, like, the study of being, of, like, what it means to be and exist in the world. And so I view the devouring other as being kind of like this essential symbol of this anxiety about eating and being eaten. And this is, like, in the sense of, like, human beings are animals. There is no the the the there's no real distinction.
Lea Anderson:We can we can talk about, like, consciousness or whatever. But, like, at the end of the day, we are as of this earth as any other living creature, and our existence is tied to it. We cannot live beyond it. And so yeah. The devouring other kind of, like, essentializes that anxiety about what it means to be human.
Lea Anderson:And it's expressed in so many different ways. And so that's when I, like, really started to get really obsessed with. And, the column, you know, live came out of another article that I wrote, I think I published at, like, the end of 2020. Shudder used to have a newsletter and a blog that was called The Bite. It was edited by Ariel Fisher, who's, like, awesome.
Lea Anderson:I really I I really miss I really miss that project. But, yeah, she published an article of mine that was titled The Anthology of Open Mouths, The Scream and the Swallowing. And so I traced this through a few different horror films. And, using, like, specific images, the sort of architecture, and everyone is familiar with it once you point it out. That, like, architectural image of, like, a person being encased inside a mouth.
Lea Anderson:So, like in Candyman, when, when Helen is in Cabrini Green and she walks through the bathroom mirror and she's, like, stepping through that mural of Candyman
Rob Lee:Mhmm.
Lea Anderson:Using, like, that image that image is so pervasive. So so so pervasive. And different artists approach it in different ways. But it's like, when I start when I when I started to center that and started to go looking for it, I realized, like, this is so far beyond the scope of what I could ever, like, manage to wrangle, like, in a single lifetime. But yeah.
Lea Anderson:So to, like, break it down into kind of bite sized analyses of, like, what work is this doing in the context of the film, in the context of the storytelling? Where are we assigning this anxiety about consumption? What is this anxiety about consumption saying about us? So like Candyman, for instance, you know, Helen is like, she's looking to consume black life and black men like like, this is she's she's going in hunt of this lore that she is going to take to nourish herself. Right?
Lea Anderson:She's not trying to, like, doesn't give a shit about the people at Cabrini Green. She's looking to build her reputation based on this myth and this monster and this history that doesn't belong to her.
Rob Lee:Right.
Lea Anderson:But that transference, that, like, what is consumed? Who is consuming it? How do we, like, parse this out? And the the implications of it all are, like, sprawling sprawling. It's you know, you can talk about it in terms of like media and art, but it has like enormous enormous implications on like a political scale and on like these big macroeconomic levels about, like, again, who who is allowed to live.
Lea Anderson:Right? Because, like, consumption is we have to eat to live.
Rob Lee:Yeah.
Lea Anderson:And, like like, we've seen in Gaza this whole year, any any element, any entity that is trying to exert control over an individual, a group, a populace, food is going to be, like, the first thing
Rob Lee:Mhmm.
Lea Anderson:On that. And yeah. So that's what really drives us. That, like, how do we think through all of this to, like, maybe take it apart and then reconstruct it in service of a better world?
Rob Lee:That is now I'm gonna have to rewatch these things through that.
Lea Anderson:Like I know. I'm so sorry. I, like, I really went off there.
Rob Lee:No. No. No. No. No.
Rob Lee:No. No. It's it's it's good. It makes it makes it, because I've recently rewatched Candyman and, that, and and that's I think in the last, like, 5 or 6 years, I've watched it a few times. I actually did a review on it.
Rob Lee:Mhmm. It was, Philip Glass, it was a Baltimorean, so, you know, I had to do that. And one of
Lea Anderson:my That score, man. That score.
Rob Lee:It's a it's a slapper. One of my buddies, who teaches at Parsons, he was like, yeah. I think this is some of the original drone footage. He's a photographer, so I'm like, alright. Lean it in, bro.
Rob Lee:Throw it out there. Yes. So doing that, I I I I do, you know, a little analysis here and there, but, you know, upon having to rewatch it a few time and with the remake, reinterpretation, or what have you also watching it for for that, each time that I see that scene when she's going through the bathroom and coming out of I was like, oh, this is I remember this differently now. It's almost like looking at this particular film and not really given it its due when I was younger and and as I creep towards 40. It's, I I see it in a sort of different perspective.
Rob Lee:And, you know, I lived in a project when I was a kid, so, yeah,
Lea Anderson:it's, you
Rob Lee:know and I don't know. It's just something about it, but that visual and just the open mouth or anything that's it's it's not not really related, but I remember when I watched, Deadpool and Wolverine recently. Right? Mhmm. Their, Cassandra Nova does this thing when just stuffing her hand in a person's mouth and just moving their brain around.
Lea Anderson:Yeah. I mean Right. Like, when you stop and really think about that like, like, hit pause for a second and, like, stop and really think about that. It's profoundly evocative. Right?
Lea Anderson:It's like that that that feeling, that that, that movement being made to move, being made to stop and think about things. That's what I look for in, like, a good horror film. That's what a good horror film can always do. Right? It's, like, kind of reach into your mouth and rearrange your brain.
Rob Lee:And and there's there was one thing, and maybe maybe it's there. I don't know because I know people have some takes on this this particular movie, but I remember, recently talking to my partner about Neon Demon. And I was like, this ending goes left. And she's like, what happens? I was like, I shouldn't share it with you.
Rob Lee:I was just like, you know, I just say people get a little teety. She's like, what's even mean? I'm like, what's the movie? And I'm doing all of this because, you know, I I took an extra English class here and there. It looks like the modeling world will consume you, baby.
Rob Lee:It's how it goes. She's like, I don't know what you're talking about. I was like, more reason to watch the movie. It'll still end. I'm like, no.
Rob Lee:I took it.
Lea Anderson:All make sense. It will all make sense once you watch it. Yeah. I I love Neon Demon. That's, I remember when it came out, folks, it got a lot of criticism about, like, like, style over substance.
Lea Anderson:And it's like, but you're not reading what the, like, what the aesthetics are doing, how they're, you know, framing the storytelling or whatnot. But, yeah, that that that ending is interesting.
Rob Lee:There there are a lot of movies that have interesting endings, and Mhmm. I I wanna build
Lea Anderson:It's the hardest part. It's the hardest part of storytelling. It's like, how you're gonna wrap shit up.
Rob Lee:It it makes me think of, I I watch a fair amount of comedy as well, and I was watching, did a I think I watched it 4 times in, like, the last year, just each series of toast of Tinseltown and toast of, like, London. And he's, like, gonna write a book, and it's like, it has to have an ending. He's like, here's the thing. This book doesn't have an ending.
Lea Anderson:Yeah. And he's trying
Rob Lee:to get it over. Yeah. It's it's just it's a great storytelling. They're like, it has to have an ending. And he writes the worst thing possible?
Lea Anderson:Just goes on and on and on. I honestly, I think I think about that often. I as, like, a storyteller and an artist and whatnot, like, my god. The, the weight the weight the weight of it. It's like all of the meaning of the entire thing that's, you know, and you've gotta decide what is it going to mean then.
Rob Lee:Yep.
Lea Anderson:And, like, sometimes they don't always choose. Right?
Rob Lee:Look. I I again, I feel like, like, if I don't wanna besmirch, I have, like, thoughts on some of the movies that we may have mentioned and some of their choices thing. I was like, oh, this is oh, okay. Cool.
Lea Anderson:Like, you made a choice.
Rob Lee:So yeah. Are you echoing attack of the 50 foot woman? Alright. Got it. I I dig it.
Rob Lee:No shots, but, you know, I don't know anything. So so building on sort of what we've talked about before, I became aware of you, in some of those docuseries on on Shutter, like, you know, the the pink haired bratz doll looking partner of mine. So it's like, yeah. We're watching horror movies. I was like, this is 8 hours.
Rob Lee:And and, you know, and and so having those projects like horror's greatest and the 101, scariest movie moments of all time, so a lot to say. How do you how do you think, you know, being a contributor to those docuseries, how do you think, like, sort of the discourse and the media discussions around horror, and even to some degree, the marketing around, like, foreign movies or oral properties, IP, how do you think that impacts audiences on sort of these these deeper themes? And I say that with this context. You know, going through like, I'll sit through and watch, like, some of the longer ones, like, I think, Into the darkness for instance. It's just like, this is 5 hours.
Rob Lee:And
Lea Anderson:Mhmm.
Rob Lee:I'm we're we're taking notes. We have, like, the, the notepad out. What am I watching? What am I checking out? And it's introducing me or reintroducing me to maybe horror and listening to folks such as yourself be able to here's my take on this.
Rob Lee:I'm like, oh, I like what she has to say or that's really funny. Woah. That's why I won't be watching that. I never thought about it through that context. So in terms of that that place of, like, the, you know, conversations around these movie revisiting these movies, these properties, what's the role around that as far as far as, like, you know, the film industry is a little weird now.
Rob Lee:So Mhmm. Yeah.
Lea Anderson:It's, I, I never really think of anything as one thing. It's kind of like a a a few different thoughts. I love the docuseries format. I like both as an audience member, as a spectator myself, and then, like, getting to participate is really cool, obviously. But, no.
Lea Anderson:I I love I love that format because because of its accessibility, because it gets to reach a wider audience who maybe, like, never got the chance to take, like, a horror studies class Or, like, didn't get to take get didn't get the chance to, like, take an English class that focused, you know, exclusively on monsters or, you know, exclusively on gothic lit or whatever. But, like, folks love horror films. You know? That is like a the that is a full stop statement. And people love horror films because they're really interesting.
Lea Anderson:And they do all kinds of, like, weird off the wall shit. And but that that weird off the wall shit is, like, doing a lot of, like, cultural work. There's just there there's very little that is as evocative to us as what we fear. You know? Like, there's all kind of kinds of, like, psychoanalysis that could be done here about, like, you know, romancing the void and us, like, being attracted to what destroys us.
Lea Anderson:But horror kind of, like, has that ability. And so I think it foments this kind of fascination in people that is really, really fun to take apart. And yeah. I think it's, like, really cool and really important to, you know, open folks or no. To offer perspectives that someone else maybe never considered.
Lea Anderson:Yeah. Or to, like, yeah, present new information to, you know, maybe someone was like, oh, horror films are all stupid, or they're all, like, b movies, or they're so formulaic, or whatever. But then they'll, like, maybe go watch the tropes and cliches episode of horror's greatest and, like, learn something about, like like, why that is and, like, how filmmakers use that and whatnot. Anything that really engages our critical thinking skills, I think is really important
Rob Lee:Yeah. Yeah.
Lea Anderson:In general. And I think I think the docuseries really allow that to to happen. And then just like the format, again, it's accessibility. Like, what horror noir did the the documentary. What the docuseries did or it wasn't a docuseries.
Lea Anderson:It was a documentary. It was a it was in a film format. What that did was, like, you it it can't be qualified. The impact the impact that it had. Because it became kind of like this viewing guide for folks who had, like, just kind of been introduced to black horror via Peele and Get Out.
Lea Anderson:It kind of gave them this history and this context for thinking about this tradition for thinking about black horror as a storytelling tradition, which it is. Jordan Peele did not invent it, by the way. We just throw that in there. Yeah. It gave, like, the history and the context to be able to, like, be an to be, an informed kind of, like, mature audience member in the way that we engage these stories.
Lea Anderson:But it also, like, distilled, you know, Robin Coleman's book, the book that the horror noir documentary was based on, is a thick book. It's a big book. You know? And it's great. It's super like, it's written in a way that's, like, very easy to get through and all of that.
Lea Anderson:It's very, very interesting. But also we also know that, like, most people are not going to sit down with, like, a 400 page academic text no matter how interested in the subject they are. So, like, the the documentaries and the docuseries really allow us to, like, introduce that information, which people are very interested in in a more accessible format. What was the other part of the question? I'm sorry.
Lea Anderson:I forgot.
Rob Lee:Oh, no. No. No. That I I think you did got all of it, actually.
Lea Anderson:Did I get it? Okay. You did.
Rob Lee:See, you you
Lea Anderson:know, here's like like
Rob Lee:you say, you you know, like I say, you gotta let people cut sometimes. But, yeah, I think in
Lea Anderson:Oh, no. Did it cut out? There we go. I think I cut out for a second.
Rob Lee:Oh, yeah. I I think at times in in in being able to check these things out and check the and it's just, you know, as accessible and digestible, you know, consume cost consumption. Right? You know, I'm able to you're almost able to create sort of almost a kinship with whoever you're watching it with or even, you know, as I was describing how I, presented and shared what Neon Demon was. I I remember it was I think it was the I think it was horror noir, but, like, the film one maybe.
Rob Lee:And and, we're at a at a dinner party and we're talking about, would you watch recently? And I was like, yeah, I watched this, you know, anthology that had, like, these flying racist blankets in it. And everyone looked at me and was like, you're making this up. I was like, nah. And here's the thing, it was like, yo, really?
Rob Lee:And you're able to, 1, have interesting things to talk about, but actually get into the minutia and have these, again, these things that are accessible that are introducing folks to something maybe outside of the norm. Like, I work in a college in my my day job, so I'm around, you know, people who think for a living and, you know, kinda do things in that way. So when you're able to present something, I guess, in somewhat scholarly well or well thought out way and but it's something that's considered a little bit more disposable, like low art, but presented in a high art sort of way. Yeah. Yeah.
Rob Lee:Yeah. Interesting conversation that one can have.
Lea Anderson:Right. Right. Yeah. It changes the tenor of the conversation because now we've, like, we're no longer treating horror as though it's like let me also just say this. I because I am not a proponent of the, like, the elevated horror category.
Lea Anderson:I feel like that is bullshit. And, like, bullshit of monumental proportions. And, no. I I I love me some trashy seventies horror. But but that doesn't mean that it's not without value.
Lea Anderson:It can be trashy and have a lot of value and teach you a lot. And I think that that's, like, a really important thing for folks to, like, take in.
Rob Lee:Yeah. Yeah. And I I I like your your your your point there. Like, you know, the and and initially, this this question had a little bit more around sort of the marketing piece of it. And Mhmm.
Rob Lee:You know, the marketing thing, like, there's things that I like, that I enjoyed, and my background was in marketing. So when I see something, I know sort of the what folks are up against in in theaters as far as putting them out there. And I'm like, don't do that. Don't do the this movie will make you gouge your own eyeballs out. I was just like, alright, am I just too old?
Rob Lee:What is it here? And then for me, I I I've been around it, and I've seen it. I've seen enough horror movies that it's just like, you don't have to sell it that way. Just do a hook. Just do something that that's cool.
Rob Lee:Like, I think I saw the trailer for this movie, The Monkey, the other day, and I was like, this is interesting. I'm just like, I'm here for it. Or even it's as simple as I I was saying, like, earlier when I was talking about New Mutants. The same way that, there's this vampire movie called Abigail that came out earlier this year. It hit me.
Rob Lee:Wait. I was like, oh, it's a vampire that's a ballerina? I'm in.
Lea Anderson:Yep.
Rob Lee:You don't have to do all of this. This movie will make you gouge your eyes out and it'll do for you. It's like, what are we what are we doing? And, you know, that's that's what it is. And, you know, being able to look at a movie, was it effective?
Rob Lee:Sure. And I find that there's a few too many movies recently that have done this thing where it's horror and it's classified in that way, but then it's kind of as, you know, you watch it, you spend the 2 hours with it or whatever it might be, and it's like, sure, I guess. And it's more of the hype around it and it's always sort of the it's imagined and the horror elements are imagined and I'm like, I don't necessarily need a monster, but could you maybe do this? And that comes from just doing a movie review podcast and thinking through things
Lea Anderson:like,
Rob Lee:hey, Could you maybe build this area out? And why are we spending time in this area? That's not as important if this is the story, and this is sort of where the conflict is at. I get really caught on that sometimes, and I see it over and over again, especially the last year and a half.
Lea Anderson:Yeah. Yeah. It's, marketing is marketing is an interesting conversation, especially these days. For 1, horror has, like, a really long history with marketing. Creative marketing being, like, really integral to a lot of, like, old classic horror.
Lea Anderson:So part of it is kind of, like, genre specific. Some of it that, like, it's gonna make you puke and gouge your eyes out, like, all of it is is these were, like, old methods of, like, trying to get folks into theaters, like, in the mid 20th century. Right? Or, like, doing things, like putting buzzers under the seats. So, like, you create a jump scare for the audience, stuff like that.
Lea Anderson:But I also I'm just like in filmmaking. I in terms of, like, my personal tastes, favor practical effects and, like, in life marketing to computer generated everything. That doesn't it doesn't land for me. It doesn't, like, it doesn't satisfy me. You know?
Lea Anderson:I don't, like, come away from it feeling, I don't know, motivated, what you're talking about about, like like, yeah. No. I don't wanna get down with that. That's that's great. Like, that's what effective marketing should do.
Lea Anderson:Yeah. But and, like, in the in the practical realm, it was also it was part of the experience. Right? It was part of how you experience the film. And that's no longer really the case anymore.
Lea Anderson:And so, like, what you're talking about is, like, a situation where the film doesn't live up to a type. Mhmm.
Rob Lee:Yeah. Yeah. It,
Lea Anderson:And one of the one one of the things and it's, like, really this is a this is a tricky kind of, like, chicken and egg situation is do we create this by talking about marketing campaigns as though the marketing is the art object?
Rob Lee:Mhmm. Mhmm.
Lea Anderson:It's like sometimes you see this now with projects where it's like more discourse went to talking about the marketing campaign than went to talking about the film. So, like, what does that tell you about the film?
Rob Lee:Right. It's I there there are two examples that that get come to mind before I move into this last question.
Lea Anderson:Mhmm.
Rob Lee:When I saw Long Legs, I I dug Long Legs. I liked it a lot, but there was so much talk around sort of, was it Malaika? And, sort of like, this is her heart beating, you know, that's like and I dug it and I only had, like, one complaint about the movie. I was just like, sounds a little jarring right here at this specific scene. I was like,
Lea Anderson:that's
Rob Lee:fine. Or even most recently watching last weekend, I was in immediately. I saw Smile 2. I was like, yep. Mhmm.
Rob Lee:You know, let's do it. As a person who I smile a lot on this podcast, but Mhmm. Some nineties black guy pictures of lot of smiles. And I was like, it's hip hop. That's what we do.
Rob Lee:And, and then watching it and enjoying it and enjoying how the beginning of that movie is set up, I was like, this is this is good. This is, I think, welcome, for where this film and this trajectory is going. And it didn't have sort of that maybe marketing bump. I think the trailer is your marketing. The trailer was good enough, and it had that you know, it's enough mystery in that trailer when you see what looks like there was an accident or something along those lines, and the road has a smear of blood that looks like a smile.
Rob Lee:I was like, I'm in. I was like, that's effective. That's design there. That's that's super effective. And it already had goodwill, and it didn't need to do all of these these other things to and and using the wrestling parlance to get your movie over.
Lea Anderson:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. A 100%. Smile had that, like, that great in the original in the original in the first one.
Lea Anderson:Was it like a sporting event where they had folks, like, pop up and were doing the creepy demon smile?
Rob Lee:Yeah. Yeah.
Lea Anderson:And it was like yeah. I was like, this is the kind of marketing that I missed. This is the kind of marketing that I wanna see in the world. The with long legs, I thought long legs was great. Like, solid, no complaints as a movie.
Lea Anderson:Right? But the marketing definitely, like, oversold the terror aspects of it. Right? You know, this is not but, again, it sort of it hearkens back because also nostalgia, like, a huge thing within horror and within horror marketing, it hearkens back to the Exorcist. And, like, those explosive physiological responses that then were treated as, like, this is how scary this film is.
Lea Anderson:This is the evidence of how scary this film is. And it just doesn't quite we are a different audience now, though.
Rob Lee:Yeah.
Lea Anderson:You know? Like, we've been exposed to a lot more than folks were exposed to in this well, no. I shouldn't say that. I shouldn't say that because that's not true. But I think, I think via the Internet I think via the Internet, it has, like, maybe deadens our reactions to some things.
Lea Anderson:And it it's it's impacted us. It's shaped us. And so I think that that's, like, a big factor in that. That, like, it takes a lot, I think, for a contemporary audience to be, like, really disgusted or really repulsed or really terrified of a film, I think, much more so than it did in the seventies.
Rob Lee:I 100% agree with that, and this is actually the sort of last last piece on that. It it is this thing where the nostalgia thing is a really good point. Like, I saw, I think, the latest Aliens movie, and Mhmm. And I saw that they're gonna release a VHS of it. And I was like, I'm in.
Rob Lee:And even at least some of the stills may be for the the marketing of the TV show, it's just people almost flash mob style
Lea Anderson:Mhmm.
Rob Lee:On the ground in different places with face huggers on them. I was like, that's cool. And it's this is actually the where I wanted to get across. It's almost this influencer style of marketing. I think that's Mhmm.
Rob Lee:Flat because I do a lot of I you know, this podcast is over 800 episodes long. I've been podcasting for 16 years, and I don't listen to a lot of podcasts. I'm very specific about what I listen to and it's generally a horror podcast. And whenever there's something that's interrupting it, like an ad or just misplaced and just put right there, I'm like, I don't know, it's just something about it and it feels like you're just trying to constantly sell me things. So I'm kind of a bad bat.
Rob Lee:Yeah. And when I see it, it's just like, you know, for Smile, sure. There's a lot of Voss bottles in there. I was like, you gotta get this movie made. I'm not knocking it.
Rob Lee:You wrote it into the script. That's funny to me. But when it's just these other instances where sort of the conversation and the pre discourse around it, some of which you're telling me how to think and how to receive this movie, and I I don't know. I've seen too many things.
Lea Anderson:Yeah. Yeah. And and that's yeah. It's like, you know, once you've been I I think it's I think age is really part of this. Like, not in a we've just seen more.
Lea Anderson:We've just seen more. You know? We've we've been, like, at this longer than someone who's 23. Right? Just just by fact of being on the earth longer.
Lea Anderson:So, yeah, things aren't going to hit in the same they're not gonna hit or land in the same in the same ways. I'm I'm thinking about long legs now. I think with long legs, a lot of it was misdirection. Mhmm. Mhmm.
Lea Anderson:Because they didn't want any leaks with Nicholas Cage.
Rob Lee:Yeah.
Lea Anderson:And, I I think that's what, like, maybe a lot of it goes. But I I what definitely works for me is, like, the withholding. I want to I don't want to get the whole film in the trailer. You know? Like and that there that is also an epidemic.
Rob Lee:Yeah. That's a lot.
Lea Anderson:Don't give away don't give away the whole film and the trailer. Because, yeah, once you've seen that trailer 55 times
Rob Lee:Yeah.
Lea Anderson:You it it depletes your desire to go watch the movie. Right? And there's, like, an aspect of this when we talk about market what distinguishes marketing from art.
Rob Lee:Yeah.
Lea Anderson:Marketing is the goal is to get your butts into a seat. The goal is to make money. This is industry. This is not art. You know?
Lea Anderson:Some people can be artists about it, but not everyone. The goal at the end of the day is about is about dollars. It's about dollars and cents. And, yeah, when you're, like, part of a populist who is having ads thrown at you and you're being sold to all of the time all the time, That kind of sometimes it's better to take, like, a more subtle approach.
Rob Lee:100%.
Lea Anderson:Yeah. I feel like that's kind of, I want more of that.
Rob Lee:Yeah.
Lea Anderson:More of that. Less is more. Let's go into, like, a less is more era.
Rob Lee:And, you know, as I'm wrapping up these rapid fire questions, that is the opposite of that. It is more is more. Now, so so as we're recording this, this is the sort of last real question. As we're recording this this conversation, we're gonna miss the spooky season. I don't Mhmm.
Rob Lee:It's it's what people call it. I don't know. So so what are what's one of your personal favorites? You know, something contemporary and something that's classic. And I think you may have touched on the classic, but, you know, 2 2 different movies, 1 contemporary, 1 classic that you'd recommend.
Rob Lee:If someone's on the fence, they're like, I don't like horror or it's mid or it's wack or I don't do that scary because people say it like that. I don't do that scary.
Lea Anderson:Yeah. I really tailor my recommendations, but, like
Rob Lee:I I imagine.
Lea Anderson:An assortment an assortment. So so in terms of, like, classics, what I always recommend, depending on who we're talking to. If you're going for something that's more straightforward, The People Under the Stairs. Wes Craven, early nineties, fucking fantastic. It's incredible.
Lea Anderson:You're going to wanna watch it now because Peele is remaking it. And I I, like, I know it's Peele, but I don't know that this is a fill I don't think that this is a film that can really be remade or recaptured. The original is brilliant. Please go watch it. You will enjoy every second.
Lea Anderson:Otherwise, if you're looking for something that's, like, a little bit more out of left field, something that you've, like, not seen anything like it ever before, Ganja and Hess. This is, it oftentimes gets labeled as a blaxploitation film, but it was like, it was kind of like someone got Bill Gunn, the filmmaker, the writer, director, got the opportunity to make a black vampire film because Blacula was such a huge commercial success. Mhmm. And they wanted him to make a blaxploitation film, and he said, fuck you, and made the artiest art house black vampire film you have ever seen. It is beautiful.
Lea Anderson:It's challenging. It's, like, intellectually challenging and, like, narratively challenging. If if you're looking for something different, something that's not like everything else, Ganja and Hest. And then in terms of, like, contemporary, my favorite thing that I've seen so far this year has been Strange Darling. My god.
Lea Anderson:It's a it was filmed on 35 millimeter. It's beautiful. It is beautiful. The colors are so rich. It's so so so pleasurable to watch.
Lea Anderson:It's got, like, a nonlinear storyline, So it really challenges your, like, preconceived notions again about, like, victimhood and villainy and, like, all of these kind of messy gender things that are also racialized even though, like, it's never overt when it's white people at the center, but it's definitely still a race thing. Yeah. Loved it. Super surprising. Beautiful to watch.
Lea Anderson:Beautiful from a craft perspective and the storyteller. Go watch it. And then also more contemporary, barbarian was also, like, what has been a favorite for of the last, you know, few years.
Rob Lee:Our variant is is great. I'll I'll I'll say this last thing, then I'm gonna go to rapid fire. Mhmm. I I I like this. This is this is one of the moments where I giggled way too much.
Rob Lee:You know, it's it's maybe 2020, maybe 2021. I think it was 2020 when, Malignant came out, and it was just like, you know, all of that marketing stuff was going on. And I remember I'm watching it, and I'm like, something's not hidden. Right? And I I sat there at a point, I think it's when you're kinda getting some of the mystery they were withholding and all of that stuff.
Rob Lee:And I'm like, oh, this is just a bad movie. I just I just loudly said that and I was able to enjoy it much better. I started enjoying it as a comedy. Right? And
Lea Anderson:Mhmm.
Rob Lee:It's a scene. And based on what you've said so far doing this podcast, I I'm I would imagine you felt very similarly. I wanna, you know, say what you were feeling, but I'm gonna assume. I'm gonna go
Lea Anderson:Oh, gosh. I'm scared because I have a terrible memory, so I'm scared I'm not gonna remember it even though I watched it, like, three times.
Rob Lee:There's a prison scene where we're getting the reveal. I'm like, each one of these people that are being thrown to the monster in this movie are all pure color. And I'm like, hey, take this black chick. Here, this black chick. And it turns into an action movie for, like, 2 minutes.
Lea Anderson:Oh my gosh.
Rob Lee:That's the when I looked at it as whatever I tell people about it, I mentioned it in those two ways. I was like, I realized 20 minutes into the movie that this is just a bad movie until we get to the kinda exploitation part where women in prison, women in cells Mhmm. All the women of color being thrown to the monster where we get them to be.
Lea Anderson:Rob, I must have suppressed it because I literally don't remember. I must have gone pissed off and suppressed it. That happens sometimes because I literally don't remember this at all. It it's my memory is so terrible. It's truly it's like, what would I be capable of if I could remember all the things that I already know?
Rob Lee:Look. I I But,
Lea Anderson:yeah, I was probably pissed off and probably screaming at the screen.
Rob Lee:As a person who has a partner who talks about everything in code because, her memory is not particularly great, and she was just like, you know, the person from the thing. And I'm like, oh, that's this actor that was in these 10 different things that we've seen together?
Lea Anderson:Precisely. I we we my partner and I have that interaction every day, every single day without fail.
Rob Lee:Hey, guys. Rob Lee here, chiming in the middle of the podcast, and we'll be right back to that in a moment. But I wanted to remind you that if you're following me on Instagram, and I hope you are the Truth in His Art, make sure that you explore the links, the link in bio. I know that people always talk about follow me, link in bio, and all of that, but there's some valuable stuff in there, such as a survey for my newsletter. You've probably received the newsletter, and if not, definitely sign up for it.
Rob Lee:There's some interesting stuff there. We have profiles of certain guests. We have sort of, you know, curated episodes because we're we're we're around 800 right now. And, it's a lot to go through, and all of them won't be available on every platform all the time. So being able to revisit and go back there, to check out those episodes is important.
Rob Lee:So definitely check out the survey. Let us know what you think of the newsletter and what you would like to have included in there, and, continue to make this podcast, yours as as well as mine's. And, yeah, back to the podcast, Rapid Fire. Alright. So I got 6 Rapid Fire questions for you, and we're gonna speed trial these, because that's the nature of Rapid Fire.
Rob Lee:Mhmm. And so here's the first one. What is something that maybe to most people seems mundane, but actually scares you?
Lea Anderson:What people do in full view of others.
Rob Lee:That's good. That's a good point. No no explanation needed.
Lea Anderson:No explanation needed.
Rob Lee:We got cameras. We got footage. I was like, oh, look at this person. Hey. You're a dick.
Rob Lee:What is a palate cleanser after watching, like, a really intense, like, like, horror movie? What's the usual palate cleanser for you?
Lea Anderson:My usual one is reality TV is Bravo. I fucking love Vanderpump Rules. And, yeah, that's my palate cleanser for for most of my intense horror watching. Or, like, I'm gonna watch this film from the thirties that's, like, super racist and hurts to watch. Gonna watch Van Derpump Rules after.
Rob Lee:Good. I learned we a conversation for another day, but this this comes to mind. But I've learned that I learned the new sound. Right? The the word chittering.
Rob Lee:You know? It's like Mhmm. Creature chittering. I was like, you know, I I don't like it. Now when I hear them, like, oh, come on.
Rob Lee:And the only reason I know that that's what it's called is because I watched a movie with the subtitles on. Do you watch movies with the subtitles on? How effective are subtitles? Like, in terms of did they ruin the scare that's about to come?
Lea Anderson:It it depends on the movie. It depends on the subtitles. Yeah. Sometimes they definitely fucking ruin the pacing. They absolutely destroy it.
Lea Anderson:It's like, please do not do this. Yeah. Sometimes it kills it. Sometimes it helps. Mostly, for me, it depends on, like, how sleepy I am and, like, how far away from the TV.
Rob Lee:What is a under underappreciated, horror, film or subgenre that you think deserves a bit more attention? Probably subgenre. Let's go with subgenre.
Lea Anderson:Oh god. Oh god.
Rob Lee:Pandora's box just opened.
Lea Anderson:Oh god. I've never thought of this before. I can't think of an answer.
Rob Lee:No. No. You're good. You're good.
Lea Anderson:I I Can I just say black horror because, like, always black horror? Black horror outside of Peel?
Rob Lee:1 100
Lea Anderson:Or like Peel 2. You know? I feel like folks didn't quite get Nope. Maybe you should go watch Nope again.
Rob Lee:Rewatch Nope. Also, I think what we we have too many get out heads and not enough us heads. I really like us. I dressed up as, you know Yeah. Freaking Winston Duke, and I was like, yo, I can't I can't look menacing.
Rob Lee:It's just too many teeth and glasses. It doesn't hurt. This okay. I'm gonna save the last one for the last. In your view, what's the defining monster of the 2020 twos, whether it literal or metaphysical?
Lea Anderson:2020 twos?
Rob Lee:Yeah. Because that's where we're at.
Lea Anderson:Oh. It's
Rob Lee:an obvious answer, but I wanna hear your take.
Lea Anderson:I'm gonna say cannibals because I think cannibals are,
Rob Lee:like, the defining monster of a lot of periods.
Lea Anderson:But, like, modernity in general, like, 20th, 21st century in general, I think cannibals, whether
Rob Lee:there's actually cannibals
Lea Anderson:on screen or not. Okay. I'm here for it.
Rob Lee:So here's here's the last one. Just full circle, especially the timing. What was a favorite Halloween costume that you've worn or you would love to wear?
Lea Anderson:I always wanted to do a really elaborate poison ivy and, like, just never met like, home make the cut like, stitch it myself and just never got around to it. But, like, maybe like a devil? We weren't allowed it was a rule in my house. It was a rule that my mother mandated that we had to be monsters. Where there was no, like, you can't be like a princess or, like, a farm.
Lea Anderson:Like, none of that shit. You have to be a monster. So I've been all of the monsters. Let me take that back. There was a year that I was a spider, and I spent the entirety of Halloween day standing in the kitchen while she paper mache'd, like, a big, like, cardboard thing around me to be, like, my spider body.
Lea Anderson:And I really liked that color. It was kinda, like
Rob Lee:It's pretty tight.
Lea Anderson:Bubbling around.
Rob Lee:Pretty tight. I I wanted to be Marv from Sin City for a while.
Lea Anderson:Oh, yeah. Okay.
Rob Lee:And, I saw this today, and this actually might happen. I dressed up like The Weeknd a couple of years ago from the
Lea Anderson:Nice.
Rob Lee:With the red suit.
Lea Anderson:I did
Rob Lee:my own makeup, all of that stuff. Mhmm. But what I saw today, and I need to have the Band Aid on the back of my neck, get myself, like, a a yellow sweater. Marcellus Wallace from Pulp Fiction.
Lea Anderson:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Lea Anderson:Yeah. Interesting. See, I this is what I love about, like, now, the difference now. It used to be, like, all, like, classic monsters for Halloween, but now everyone does, like, pop culture and film references, and it's like, there's so much opportunity there. So much opportunity there.
Lea Anderson:Yeah. I love it.
Rob Lee:You're gonna be a fan
Lea Anderson:of that. One of my favorite things, about Halloween now is, yeah, like, seeing everyone's obscure references.
Rob Lee:Yep.
Lea Anderson:And, like, how online are you? I can tell. I can tell.
Rob Lee:That's fantastic. And, that's kinda it. We we've covered so much ground. This has been just everything I was hoping it was gonna be. This is wonderful.
Rob Lee:So there's 2 things I wanna do as we close out here. 1, thank you for coming on to the podcast and spending some time.
Lea Anderson:You for having me. This is, like, so much fun.
Rob Lee:Thank you.
Lea Anderson:So great to chat.
Rob Lee:Yeah. And 2, I would like for you to share with the listeners, social media, website, any of that stuff. Shameless plugs is what I like to call this porch and pots.
Lea Anderson:Plugs. The floor is yours. So I should preface that I, I'm not I'm not on social media tons, but you can follow me for when I do post stuff, on Instagram at Arachlea. It's like does it I gotta spell it. It's a r a c h l e a a.
Lea Anderson:That's kind of the only social media that I'm doing right now. I am trying to finish this book, y'all. I'm trying so hard. But you can follow me. I'm I like published with Fangoria primarily.
Lea Anderson:So you can, like, I, like, type in for contributors, and that's, like, always updating. I've got a piece on hip har in can't speak, on hip hop and horror coming out soon. So, like, stay tuned. And, yeah, tons of stuff coming through them, coming through FanGo.
Rob Lee:And there you have it, folks. I wanna again thank Lea Anderson for coming on to the podcast and frankly, nerding out with me on horror movies and indulging indulging the conversation. It's it's truly a pleasure and I really appreciate her insights and and background. And for Lea Anderson, I am Rob Lee saying that there's art, culture, and community hiding in the shadows. You just gotta look for it.
