Martine Johanna: Unveiling Realism and Female Complexity in Art

ROB LEE: Welcome to The Truth in This Art. I am your host, Rob Lee. And today, today's a long time coming. Today is a treat. I originally was going to do this interview a little while ago. And in the conversation leading into it, learned that the guest and I share a birthday. So we're doing it today and putting it out because we're, you know. both Aquarians. So today's guest is a Dutch artist celebrated for her captivating figurative paintings and exploration of new contemporary realism, unveiling the complexities of archetypal female figures within the male dominated infrastructure. Please extend a warm welcome to the talented and visionary Martine Johanna. Welcome to the podcast.
MARTINE JOHANNA: Hey Rob, how are you doing? It's so good to talk to you. I don't think I'm royalty, but it's fine, yeah?

ROB LEE: I mean, all of us January 20th, we have crowns on our heads, you know. That's true. It's not visual, it's there, it exists. Yeah. And, you know, like I like I was saying in the intro that I've been looking forward to this is a long time coming. So I'm really just, you know, excited to be able to chat. And it's very timely. You hit me up and you're like, look, I got some new work coming. So I'm like, OK, cool. So to start off. I always like to get the root, the beginning of the story, what have you. So for you, take us back to the early on, the very beginning, some of those early experiences with art, whether it was from the creating art or whether it was from the appreciating art. But talk a bit about some of those early roots and those early foundational moments.

MARTINE JOHANNA: Yeah, so really really early I think drawing was always an escape for me. I grew up in a very religious community and I remember that one day in school I was, you know, I think I was about 11 or something and my teacher who was also a preacher, which rhymes really nicely by the way, but He told me I was drawing a horse with wings and like a unicorn and he told me like this is not of God, God hasn't created this creature and he showed the whole classroom and he hung it up in the classroom like in front of the classroom with that sort of story like this is not from God, you shouldn't draw something that God hasn't created And all I could think was, I have my first exhibition.

MARTINE JOHANNA: I was so proud and happy that he hung that in the classroom.

MARTINE JOHANNA: I don't think that was necessarily what he meant to do, but I really liked it. And I remember also when people were asked in the classroom, like, what do you want to become later when you grow up? Everybody would say, like, oh, I want to be a nurse or a firefighter. I think that's universal, right? I mean, in America, it's the same, more or less. And then I asked my mom, like, what's it called when you make a living out of drawing? And then she said, then you're an illustrator. So I remembered that. And that's what I said in that questionnaire, like the question round. And I said, I want to be an illustrator. And then later I found out what art was. So I saw paintings, you know, when we went to a castle, because I live in an area where there are a lot of Dutch castles still from medieval castles and stuff. It's very romantic. And I saw paintings and I was like, Oh, I want to paint. And then I saw a picture of the Mona Lisa. And I I tried to copy that when I was about 15, and I did it in watercolor, and I liked it so much. And then I started to paint Monet and Manet and all the expressionists. I tried to copy those. And I wanted to be an artist because it felt like every time I would draw and paint and I still have that, I would go to this sort of alternate, alternate universe where everything is nice and peaceful and dreamy. And like, I love the idea of endless possibility. And I think that is really what draws me into art is the possibility, not the things that are not possible, because that's what I heard all around me when I was small and all the things that you couldn't do when you're a woman or a girl. Because then, you know, there are other priorities, like you have to marry somebody and get and have children and be a housewife or, or you choose a career that you can make money off and be responsible. There was a lot of like the word responsible in when I grew up So I did one, I was allowed to go to the arts academy, just to stick to the work side, but not the free arts, although I want to do it, like painting and drawing. My mother said like, you can do it, but only if you study fashion, because in fashion, you can make money, which is absolutely not true. So but I thought like yeah hell why not you know because I also liked fashion design and clothes and I love clothes so much so I was like yeah fine so I went there and I had a talk with like six teachers there was a whole panel and they all tried to convince me to go to the free arts and then I said no because I'm not allowed from my parents So I did fashion and I really liked fashion as well. And then there was sort of a hiatus. So I was a fashion designer for, I think, 10 years or so. But it felt really confining. This is like a real quick overview of how I started. And then when I started living in Amsterdam, I had my own little apartment and I went on the streets and I met new friends and we would go and do street art and I would freeze my fingers off trying to handle a spray can. I wasn't built for that. Yeah, I just did all these kind of things like murals and stickers, really ugly stickers also. But I had so much fun and at one point I was asked to do an exhibition with street artists. from one thing led to another and I just quit my fashion design job at one point because I could live like exactly from selling one painting per month.

MARTINE JOHANNA: And I could pay my rent and have something to eat and be happy.

MARTINE JOHANNA: And that was all that I needed. So yeah.

ROB LEE: Thank you. And definitely I want to I want to comment on that before I go into this next question. You know, especially that that last part, like I've always kind of lived this dual lifestyle because of that sort of, you know, you have an artistic goal. You want to do something creative. I wanted to be, you know, illustrator or comic book artist and all of that stuff when I was younger and, you know, always had sort of this interest in all of these creative things. But knowing that and being, you know, sort of told that you got to do something that's going to make money because, your feet are big and shoes are expensive. So having that as a thing, and I still do that now, but looking for ways to better marry the two. But I definitely romanticize the artistic lifestyle. But as I get closer to 40 or as I get older, I guess, that is not something for the now, that was something in the past and that experience was great. And, you know, I'll say that and I would always have these contractual jobs at colleges. So being around sort of the younger folks or what have you that are seeing things and trying different things. So that energy exists. But then also having a very busy like social schedule, a very busy podcasting schedule, it just felt like I'm not on a calendar. I'm not on the clock. I'm on my own time. And that's the thing that I like about at least the pieces of the sort of artistic life. And I was hearing bits of that in your, you know, description of, yeah, I did street art for a while and I was doing this and fashion.

ROB LEE: Nah, not so much.

ROB LEE: I dig that. So it brings me to this question of how, how does your current work or your, you know, more recent work, how does, you know, illustration, drawing, I mean, in fashion, whether it is the thinking behind it, whether it is the sort of application or the techniques, how does that show up in your work these days?

MARTINE JOHANNA: Oh, yeah, it's, yeah, it's a really nice question. I want to first go back to something you said just now, if I can remember it, because I have got issues with my concentration because I have ADD, but like really diagnosed ADD. uh but um oh no i forgot it i'll remember it later um yeah so the fashion influence i think all creative professions are related um so it's all language right i mean when you go into painting or drawing It's a language, different from words. It's like everything except words that you're saying, just like music, right? Music is also a language or dance is a language, but fashion is also a language. I mean, when I say streetwear, you have an image of what that is. Or when you say red carpet, you have an image of what that is or, you know, a classic costume. And those are like really broad terms. So I think the expression is all related. And also fashion has this sort of language when you wear it. The only thing is that it has a restriction, which is the body. Just like illustration has a restriction that it has to convey the story that you're illustrating, for instance, right? I don't like restrictions so I'm much more happy to have fashion influence in my work now because now it's like a choice of expression only and it doesn't need to fit a wearer or has no practical use so it's expression only and in that sense I use it more as an abstract a shape language, like form language. So I have a lot of pleats, for instance, in my work. Pleats are like moving fabrics that are almost symbolic for a whirlwind, or it's very constraining, or it's, you know, it communicates something, right? So it communicates in one of the paintings, it communicates a sort of wildness and entanglement, for instance. And when I say entangled and clothes, you also immediately have an image, right? So I think all these expressions I mean, leave out language for now, but all these expressions are a creative expression from our being that is unique to our species. You know, if you don't count elephants that draw because we gave them, you know, paints and a brush. But, and also language. And if I add language to it, you know, rhyming or poetry, I love the dynamics of language as well. So I also play with that in some projects. I've made a book with drawings and also sort of a very strangely formed story that is in the past, the present and the future, but it's all combined. Because I like to play with not reality. It's all over in my work, like the sort of escapism to something else than we are now. And I also, I remember now. what I want to go into. Because you said, like, you know, when I talk so enthusiastically about my starting periods, when I started as an artist, I talked about it with my friends the other day that The older you get, the less room you have ahead of you. So the time you spend feels more urgent. And when you're younger, you don't feel the urgency yet. I mean, the urgency comes like after your 30s. then you feel like, oh, I don't have that much time anymore. So the time ahead of you grows shorter, and the time behind you goes bigger. I think this is something that's really not nice for young people. But that's what happens. So you have to really invest in what you really like when you're younger. So you can, you know, build on that when you get older. So don't put off anything, I think, if you have ambitions or feelings or love for something you want to do, you have to try and do it while you can. So you can, you know, sit back a little bit more when you get older and enjoy that the choices that you made.

ROB LEE: That's a really good point because like, and this is now, now I'm free jazzing now. That's a really good point where, you know, when you talk about ambition, you know, when I do this, um, I doing this podcast at one point, there was a year when I put out 330 episodes and, you know, why'd you do so many? That's like because I enjoy doing that. Well, that's too many. It's like, who who's saying I'm the one that's doing it? And yeah. Or why do you talk to these people? It's sort of like I and this would be great because, you know, Aquarius is I'm riding a wave, a creative wave. I call it the creative Holy Ghost. And when it strikes, I just have to do it. And While I like hearing feedback from people of what they take what I'm doing as or what this might mean and what this might represent, all of that stuff, at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter. It's it's what I'm interested in. And, you know, someone likes it. Great. You get it. But if you don't, that's also great. It's not for you. And I think a big piece of my my style is indicative of that. And. You know, I think, you know, you and I are very similar in this this sort of way where I think from what I gathered and listening to interviews and, you know, us chatting beforehand, you're a free thinker. You're huge on the administrative parts of like, really?

ROB LEE: And you're a bit of a rebel. I see it. I see the hair. You're a bit of a rebel. I see it. I dig it.

ROB LEE: So tell me about how that shows up. in how you approach your work, whether it is thematically in the themes that you're pursuing, whether it is in sort of what you're exploring or even in, you know, sort of what relationships with with galleries that you're even pursuing. Tell me about sort of like you as the person, how that shows up in your work.

MARTINE JOHANNA: Yeah. So what I feel is like even if you're talking about podcasts, for instance, I think every conversation is valuable, even like, if your conversation is not that great, it's also a valuable thing, because it's an experience, you know, you learn from it. And I think, also, that's how I stand in life, more or less, I'm very open also to criticism or to like really build up criticism, like with reasoning, not with judgment only, because that's not criticism to me. I think that's a weakness if people do that. I think it's just being open to everything and learning and don't restrict other people's thinking. As long as you don't harm each other, I think everything can come into question, except that I really trust science. But even scientists, like good scientists, they keep on questioning and researching because that's what science is, you know, is that you research and you try to learn something new. And then you find out maybe you made a little error and then you research further, you go deeper. I really like to know everything about everything. I want to understand people. I want to understand how systems work and how, you know, all these influences work. And I really love people. I hate how they behave sometimes, but I really love people and characters and just different views and stories. And I think that's so special about us people that we have so many stories to tell. And sometimes they're really interesting, sometimes a little bit boring, but that's also really nice. So it's, I don't know, I just feel really invigorated when I have this sort of expand to possibilities. And I think that also people that I work with like gallerists or they feel that enthusiasm and they feel that I'm really invested in doing better myself trying to be open to do I make mistakes? Or do I can I do something different? Or am I nice enough to somebody else? Like, am I you know, am I developing myself? Because I can be really hard on myself. And at the same time, I'm always very scared to make mistakes, you know, or to be, how do you say, sometimes I struggle with my English when somebody says no or like you're, how do you say that? When somebody says, yeah, like rejects you. I'm very scared of rejection sometimes. And, but also when I get that, then I feel like, oh, but I survived this. Like, it's not that bad as I thought, you know?

MARTINE JOHANNA: So, yeah.

ROB LEE: It's one of those things, and I didn't mean to really cut you off, but I wanted to at least mention this, where, again, it's the same. It's the same in going through this sort of process. And I had to understand, like, and accept it, you know, where, You know, you're going through and definitely I'm gonna get your take on this. You're going through and you're overly manicuring. Like, imagine, you know, we do a conversation, right? And I'm looking for every um, every gap, all of this stuff and looking for that thing that feels more perfect. It's. Yeah. it removes it from what it actually is. It's a conversation. Conversations have those ums in it. It has those gaps, it has those pauses. And, you know, if there are things that should come out because it's like in poor taste or the person is like, no, this is still going to be going out, then we should probably remove this piece of it. That makes sense. It may not fit contextually, but what feels like a conversation, that's what the aim is. And, you know, I get caught on a rejection thing, too, where or even sort of what I feel is rejection. I might put out an episode and it's like, damn, two downloads. Guess I'm done, guys. You know, and then there are other times where it's wow, this went really well. But my thing is, is this is this the actual connection with the person? I'm not here to be a podcaster to do this. I'm here. And this is going to sound so pretentious. I almost hate myself for saying it, but It's really about connecting with people. It's really about building sort of relationships. You know, you touched on like friendship as a theme. I heard that a lot in what you were saying here, what you were saying in previous podcasts. And I'm always curious about how friendships maintain and how they develop when it comes to. you know, this world with social media, with artists and being in it, because I felt like maybe I'm friends with people, but turns out maybe I'm not. Maybe I'm not really.

MARTINE JOHANNA: I've had the same. Yeah, I've had the same. Yeah, no, it's true. But also, I think the anxiousness or being rejected, I think everybody has it. And I think the people that say they don't have it at all have it the most. And, uh, like Elon Musk or Trump.

MARTINE JOHANNA: I didn't want to mention them.

ROB LEE: One of the reasons this podcast started cause I was like, screw this dude. Here's why.

MARTINE JOHANNA: Yeah. I think people should talk more with each other and shout less because if you shout too much, you don't, you're not communicating. I think communication is key. It sounds so corny, but it's true. We all should be able to speak with one another and try to understand. I think there's too much of a split going on everywhere.

ROB LEE: Yes, give me the space to be wrong. Give me the space to grow. And even in it, it's curiosity, too, of I wonder what these people think. And I, you know, I'll say this before I move into this, this next question I want to ask you. It is I was in a meeting yesterday and we were talking about sort of racial biases here. Yeah. And I was hearing from another person of color that they don't exist in that specifically black people. The call is majority black people. This person was not black, said that. I just think black people are victims and they're just choosing to be victims. It derailed the call. People were losing their minds. Oh, and. And the person was very defensive about their position and really derailed it because it wasn't like a discourse. We were, you know, the people on the call were giving her sort of that space to be wrong. Maybe she, you know, English is not her first language, so maybe she misinterpreted. It's like, no, no, no. She spoke very eloquently about her ignorance. And, you know, it's sort of that thing. And I think, you know, people at their root, they want to be able to have common ground with folks and be able to connect with folks. But we get too affixed to sort of a belief system. And it's like what drives that belief system. And again, going back to this, this notion of perfection. Right. That's I think that's the thing. I never want to be wrong. I always want to be right. So, yeah. For you, with sort of the things you touched on, sort of the rejection thing, sort of being very, very hard and very critical of yourself at times. Like I said, I'm the same way. We're on the same page. What are your thoughts on like perfect or imperfect work?

MARTINE JOHANNA: Yeah, I think that is a thing. You can't really put your finger on it. And because you can't, it's like an unobtainable ideal. It's like utopia and utopia is only utopia because it's something you never will get. It's the impossible thing to strive for because you have your talents and you have your practice and those combined will give you your best at that time and you can strive for something better and it will make you grow, but it never goes as fast as you would like it to go. But it's, I think that's not a bad thing. Cause I think growth takes time. It's the same. Like if you get money tomorrow, like a million dollars, you'll, you will be able to buy anything you want almost say 10 million, but then you're not grateful anymore. Right. Well, I think the experiences are so much more worth them. Uh, then. having the perfection. Perfection is something you can strive for. I mean, that's my sensible side that's talking now. But I know that I'm harsh on myself because I know that because of what I've been through as a child already, and later on also as a woman. You know, I've had a difficult relationship with my mom and She had high expectations of me and we had a very strained relationship. There was a little bit of violence in the house and some neglect on some parts. And on the other side, I really loved her and she's sort of a muse also. It's really complicated, mothers and daughters. But I've also been sexually assaulted when I was smaller and also when I was older. a couple of times and then, you know, your self-worth takes a hit. And I think that's also when you said about Black people, like that, was it a lady that said it? I said lady.

SPEAKER_02: Yes, it was, yeah.

MARTINE JOHANNA: I said lady, like we're in Mississippi.

MARTINE JOHANNA: Sorry for the

MARTINE JOHANNA: But yeah, it's like sometimes men say it about women, you know, that they're always playing the victim. I mean, I can't even imagine what it would be like to be a woman of color because that must be even harder in life. But I know how it is to be a woman and not have freedom always because people take advantage of being stronger, you know, and you're isolated. And yeah, in that sense, I think, you know, the self worth thing plays into also when I work and how harsh I am on myself, it has to be, you know, it has roots in being seen as something that's not worth something.

ROB LEE: Yeah, I hear you. And thank you for for sharing. I mean, it's it's you know, we have these these real conversations and, you know, at times when something that's real and it's something that plays a role in sort of the thinking that goes into the work or how we approach our work or whatever it might be. Yeah, sometimes people want the really clean and sanitized answers. Like, no, here's the real answer. And I had this idea, you know, as Aquarius, we're fake philosophers. I had this this notion of, I call it like perceived deficits in however you maybe perceive yourself or, you know, you maybe act in accordance to. So like here, and I would imagine different parts, but like here, you know, if you're of a certain size for sake of argument, like six or probably like 280 something. But I was 350 not long ago. And, you know, you hear these things of, oh, you're lazy because you're overweight. Yeah, because you're so you work harder than the other person. And you're already working hard. And it's some of those things, it's like having like a fat guy mentality, you know, just wanting to really show that your worth, your the quality of what you do, how you go about what you do. And that extends in the professional realm, that extends in the professional and art realm, but it extends on how we view ourselves and all of that stuff is baked in. So. Yeah. Or even this this notion where I've heard at times because I am who I am, I can only be who I am. Right. Yeah. I've had folks say, why do you talk to these white artists? Why do you talk to these artists from other places? You should be talking to the black artists. And I was just like, talk to whoever I find interesting. I don't think that's black enough. I was like, didn't ask you. And but it's, yeah, it's a skin deep.

MARTINE JOHANNA: Come on, man.

ROB LEE: Yeah. And it's something where it's other people's perspective on what and how you should exist. And it extends into what your contribution is to the canon that you're working in. You know, like, well, I think your work should be about this. I've had so many people hit me up in DMs and I want to almost screenshot them to me, but to hit me up in DMs, you should ask these types of questions as a bop bop bop and identity component to it. And yeah, I don't know. It's very, very odd.

MARTINE JOHANNA: I do understand it, though, because, you know, I, I understand it from a historical perspective also, and from a current perspective still. But I always think it's interesting to talk to anybody. So that's the only difference. But I don't come from a group that's, you know, considered a minority, except that I'm a woman. and so that's also and I don't like the word minority at all I just think equality even though we're not there yet I would really love that everybody would think like that because it would make such a difference and unfortunately it's not so I do I do understand the sort of feeling for you know, being seen and heard. People who say they want you to ask questions on Black artists, for instance, because they need more of a stage maybe, you know. I feel that also for women artists somehow. I mean, that's still a difference, but I don't know. I understand it, that people want that because it's, I don't think it's a victim mentality also. I don't think so. I think it's just natural. you know, that it's always the same people that get the chances. And I, yeah, no, I really understand it.

ROB LEE: That's why it's important to have that independence to be able to do what you want and how you want and let that show it. So I, you know, in what I do, it's all baked in. I try not to do the performative thing of, this month we're only going to talk with queer artists or this month only artists of color. It's just like, look, it's all baked in this sort of body of work. And speaking of bodies of work, I must transition into this upcoming exhibit. Let's talk about it. Let's talk about it. I want to say that was my attempt to really hard left transition. Yeah. But I want to talk about a particular ghost set to debut soon. Let's let's talk about it. Yeah. Could you share a bit about the overall inspiration and concept behind the collection? I mean, I got my preview that I'm going to keep close to the past, but I really was a great surprise to to get the visuals yesterday. So definitely want to talk a bit about that. So please tell us, share with us.

MARTINE JOHANNA: Yeah. So a particular ghost already says like it's a specific, it's almost like a specific thought, but maybe a negative one or something that haunts me. And because I've been in therapy, because I'm already, you know, being open about everything. I was in therapy for PTSD for extended PTSD. So I've had EMDR sessions and other sessions to cope with trauma. And it was long overdue. But then I thought like, oh, I have all these ghosts in my head because I still suffer from noise in my head. where I get, like, really a lot of voices. It's not like I'm not mentally ill in that way, but I just have sounds in my head, and it's like a stress symptom. And sometimes they get louder, and I get all these sort of entangled thoughts, and I don't know, and somehow painting also helps me cope with them. And I wanted to make something really different this time. So I thought, let's just pluck those thoughts out of my head. And I have this really sort of almost horror-like dream sometimes, where I'm at places where I'm all alone. And then I thought, why don't I paint places that I see in my dreams? So this might be new to people who know my work, but I've painted a couple of landscapes this time. and they're sort of enclosed in abstract forms almost like my brain shapes and they're like little views into my dream world where it's like desolate like nobody's there but it's in forests and it's really a little bit like the place where I grew up where there are a lot of trees and nature and but it still feels quite confined because my youth was sort of like that. It was very romantic in the sense of nature and, you know, castles around and like a girl, you know, you're like a princess. I'm a princess. I'm a secret princess. Everybody, every girl thinks that when they're young. And, uh, at the other other side, there were a lot of churches and it was a lot of like, uh, restriction and judgment. And I've, I used to fight a lot when I was small and stood up for myself, literally, against groups of boys. I don't know where I got the guts from, but I always fought for myself. Anyway, but somehow that feeling of that enclosement and sort of drive to hide but also drive to stand up for myself or to expose myself and and be free to do that that's all in this show so it it goes from desolate sort of enclosed uh scenes and forests with like buildings or um it goes into like Yeah, pornography, almost like to pornography images.

ROB LEE: I got questions about those.

MARTINE JOHANNA: Yeah, I know.

MARTINE JOHANNA: And they are super exposed. And I did those because they made me feel uncomfortable. And that's why I did them. Because, yeah, that was something I also challenged, like, I had a lot of my mind, I just wanted to put out so. And so it's a lot of experiments. taking chances because people are always used to what you make and they expect that you make more of that. So I did something different this time a little bit and it's very scary. But I felt like I had to have the particular ghost out of my mind and onto paintings and drawings, yeah.

ROB LEE: Scary is good. What was the sort of, like when the initial sort of moment, like you worked on, let's say the first piece and two, when you're like, all right, I think this is the full body. What was that sort of timeframe?

MARTINE JOHANNA: Yeah. So I started with the two pornography images months ago. and they are large like they're not that large like they're almost as tall as me and but I had to make them I was like I want to show like a woman that is excited you know like in heat and that has her own desires, because you're never shown that. It's always like men, like everywhere, there's like totem poles and like everywhere things are erect. But women, you hardly see very excited unless it's porn, you know. So and then everything like and also women are always judged for being exposed because then you're like a hoe or a slut or and but for men, there are no words like that. There are no words for men that are judgmental about being sexually active. Then you're a hero. And I wanted to counteract that. But what happened, and I hope that everybody who listens to this finds this as funny as I do, what happened was that every day I walked into my studio, I saw vaginas. I opened vaginas and I was horrified. And I was like, why am I doing this? Why am I doing this? But I thought, well, if I'm this uncomfortable, I should really do it. I should just go on and do this and open myself up to criticism. So one painting is really almost a landscape. What is threatening about a woman? And I think you want to ask a question about that.

ROB LEE: Yeah, so so I have questions about sort of the two that come to mind. A round object has no sharp edge. I like that. What inspires sort of that that reflection, like, you know, sort of the the duality, the the being being a threat or being perceived as a threat, human sexual women, female sexuality being perceived as a threat. and sort of that duality of being like an object of lust for, you know, folks, and then also being chastised or what have you. And it's like, you shouldn't, but I want that, but you shouldn't be, but I want that. So talk about sort of the thinking that in the reasoning or just why, why was that of interest?

MARTINE JOHANNA: Well, the thing is that a round object has no sharp edge is actually like a science term, because if you have a ball, it has no sharp edge because it disappears in the orb. And, you know, women's bodies are seen as the more round, the more attractive. But at the same time, it's perceived as a threat. It's like being you, you have to hide it, you can't show it online, every nipple is like an offense. If you're too sexual, you're a slut. If you're, you know, there's so much like harmful, that I think that's the most harmful about the human body about female body is the harm that is projected on it. Because the body itself is not harmful, it gives life if you're lucky, you know, It gives life, you can enjoy it. Like, there's literally nothing harmful about a woman's body. But all we do is treat it like something like, I wanted to do this, like a cross.

MARTINE JOHANNA: Like a vampire, no. Women, ugh.

MARTINE JOHANNA: And it's like, you know, it's, I mean, it starts in the Bible with Eve and being a temptress. And then, you know, she messes up everything because she wants to know too much. And women shouldn't know that much because you don't want to have that power in women's hands. And it's so cringy if you think about it. And I was like, every time I walked into the studio and saw that work, I felt ashamed. This is not a lie. I felt shame. And I was like, why do I feel ashamed? It's because that's all I've heard ever since I was growing up. and I came into my teens, is that I had to be ashamed of my body, I had to be ashamed of my behavior, I had to be ashamed of making choices for myself, looking for freedom, for expression, you know, and it's oppressionist. So that's, for me, the painting is freedom, you know? So I get really like, ugh!

ROB LEE: I hear you, I like it.

MARTINE JOHANNA: Yeah, and… And the other painting… Slow motion, right?

ROB LEE: Sorry? The other one you were going to describe, slow motion?

MARTINE JOHANNA: Yeah, slow motion. Yeah. You had a question about that as well.

ROB LEE: So with with this painting is conveying fragility, whirling emotions and longing for freedom. Again, freedom is freedom's important. How do you use sort of the artistic elements to capture like these emotions within within that piece?

MARTINE JOHANNA: Yeah, so it has a jello in it, which nobody expected that, I think, until I said it. It has jello on plates, like from a sort of a 50s commercial. And this woman is also very exposed, and her dress is almost killing her or choking her. She's wrapped up in it, and it's a whirlwind of fabric. And there are three hands in it. And it feels, like somebody said, it feels like she's being assaulted, but it's not that because she's excited and she maybe wants it, but she also has some kind of distance in her face. And both the paintings have sort of an ideal beauty in their face, but the face also seems a little bit pasted on because we have this sort of beauty ideal that we all want to I say we all as women, I can't speak for all women, but a lot of women are influenced that they have to use a filter when they make a selfie or you want to stay forever young. So this painting is more about this constant it has a time span, you know, just like those food elements, it goes bad really quickly. It can't stay perfect forever. It's only perfect for a certain amount of time. And most mostly men say that about women, that women don't grow old very nicely. a man get more handsome is then the saying, which is not true. It's just, it depends if you have good genes or not. It doesn't matter if you're a man or a woman, if you have good genes, and you take care of yourself, you'll look better. But then, you know, it has a short time span, where you're perceived as being beautiful and attractive, and feel so fragile. Like, you're always under pressure when you're a woman. And I know, I know, I have I've been pregnant a couple of times, which all failed. And, you know, my time slot is gone already. I don't really want children, because if I think about my mom, I'm much too scared that I'm like her. So I don't want to have that. So but still, you know, it's all these things that as a woman you have to deal with. And everybody around you finds it normal that you are under that time pressure. And then men, even friends of mine say, I have time. If I want children, I can just take a younger girlfriend or I'm like, dude, what you're saying?

MARTINE JOHANNA: It's like, Oh,

ROB LEE: Yeah, that was the thing that would would come up in in conversations that I would have. And, you know, even exploring that that idea of I don't have any kids, but exploring that idea. And, you know, I was like, I don't want to hang out with my kid. I want to be like 50 and have like a two year old. That's just not my particular vibe or what have you. And it's sort of a consideration of like, you know, how that thing works, and I know it's much harder for women because you'll hear the thing of, well, your clock is ticking, you know, this urgency there that we don't share in that same sort of, I guess, biological way or even social way. You know, society is like, when are you going to hurry up and have some babies?

MARTINE JOHANNA: I've had a woman once said to me like, oh, you don't know what you're missing.

MARTINE JOHANNA: I was like, you don't know why I am missing it. So don't say that. Dude, it's like a move.

MARTINE JOHANNA: But, you know, people don't mean to be that, you know. So I like that about it, but it's, it is true. And I also, you know, I think about man the same, like you don't want to go with your walking stick. Son, you want to go baseball?

MARTINE JOHANNA: Wait, let me get my walking stick.

MARTINE JOHANNA: Give me 30 minutes and I'll be right with you. Yeah. And it's like, I don't know. I think it's just, yeah. I had a conversation with a friend of mine who said like that dating women is like transactional. More or less. And he thought if he paid for dinner, then he had the right to have sex. But if she would put out the first night, like he wouldn't date her anymore because then she wouldn't be as valuable. And I was like, oh, my God, we're in the 50s. I'm in a time machine. What's happening?

ROB LEE: It's a ridiculous bust up that so many, it comes back that it is these faux alpha, all of that stuff. And I think, you know, frankly, what happens is, and it goes back to one of the things you touched on earlier, that people aren't communicating of what their values are and what they actually want. So because things are positioned so often like a transaction, because some of the music is like, you should be using guys for these things and these resources and so on. There is some conditioning in that way. But then people just think like, oh, this is how things work. And I think when we get into sort of the mixing of generations and that's another thing, because I remember talking with one of my friends and it's like, it's a lot of people who want to be sugar babies that aren't giving out sugar. And I was just like, that's not how that transaction works, because we're bringing to the transaction, you know what I mean? But it's it's a very interesting way that we go about things. And to the to the point of the point, I guess, we haven't even sorted out like whether we even like each other and how we do some of these things. These are advanced classes, you know, relationships on dating, on sexuality, on sex. And we just kind of like skim through the cliff notes and just think that, oh, OK, yeah, we're good. We can just do this now to the advanced courses.

ROB LEE: You don't know the first level yet.

MARTINE JOHANNA: Yeah. No, but I think it all comes down to If you're from an equalist standpoint, it comes down to have respect for one another. Yes. And not expect everything because you think you are somehow higher or better or stronger or, you know, if you expect something from somebody else without, you know, it's not a transaction. The transaction should be respect and interest, have an interest in another person. have questions for somebody instead of judgments, you know? Because a question is so much more interesting. So, I mean, we go beyond now the beauty perspective or, you know, a lifespan of attractiveness. I think it's just having interest in each other, having respect, it goes so, so far. It just, it will deliver you. It will give you so much more than judgment or, you know, thinking in boxes. Yeah. And have expectations from somebody else that you've said. But I'm not necessarily the ones that the other person have, you know, expectations.

ROB LEE: Yeah. Yeah. I'm like I said, you know, right here, just right here. And and I think sort of my last question, I think I got my last question actually in there, because like you were saying, you were giving your you know, your beginning, you were giving, you know, your intro. But here's the funny thing. I always like when people give longer answers because it makes my job easier because I could just start checking off answers, checking all questions. I was like, OK, I got that one. And it makes my job easier. So shout out to you. So with that, I want to move into sort of the last chunk of these rabbit fire questions for you. So are you ready for these? I don't know.

MARTINE JOHANNA: I hope so, let's see.

ROB LEE: So as I tell everybody, and this is going to be a challenge because, you know, I think we have a fair amount of similarities. So I don't, you know, I'm going to tell you the same thing I would tell myself. Don't overthink these. All right. So this can be in whatever language. What is your favorite word?

MARTINE JOHANNA: Oh, ask a ADHD person.

MARTINE JOHANNA: I think psychotic.

ROB LEE: Okay. When, and I think I heard it heard an answer for this in a previous podcast, but I'll just ask you, when do you usually start working during the day? And what time? What part of the day?

MARTINE JOHANNA: Yeah, not earlier than 11 in the morning. But I go on at night most of the time.

ROB LEE: I mean, it's night there currently.

ROB LEE: So yeah.

ROB LEE: Okay, I noticed this one. So I'm definitely going to ask, what is your favorite Stephen King movie?

MARTINE JOHANNA: Oh, I listen.

MARTINE JOHANNA: Yeah, well, the movie in the favorite Stephen King movie is The Shining, but I know he doesn't like it, but I've read all Stephen King books.

ROB LEE: OK, yeah, I I didn't put a lot of respect on The Shining initially, then upon rewatching it and watching the documentary, I think from 237. Yeah, I was like, this is amazing. This is great.

MARTINE JOHANNA: And yeah, I'm a big Kubrick fan. So, yeah.

ROB LEE: And I went into seeing Dr. Sleep with that sort of energy, and I was like, this couldn't be as good, but it's definitely a movie that I enjoyed. I liked Dr. Sleep as a sort of follow-up and a sequel to it, but definitely it had an uphill battle.

MARTINE JOHANNA: Yeah, oh yeah, I didn't like Dr. Sleep that much. Because I don't think, I thought it was too much trying to do the Kubrick thing, but if you're not Kubrick you should do your own thing, I think. But that's my, sometimes I just, I can't get over my pet peeves. So when they use the same music, I thought the music was misplaced sometimes and I thought it was too slow and too heavily on the dramatics and too explanatory, which I don't like because that's sometimes something that Stephen King does, that he explains his stories too much and I like the mystery. So that's what I liked about The Shining, that there was a lot of open to interpretation stuff. And I don't need a further explanation.

ROB LEE: That's, that's, that's legit. That's legit. No, no, no. I mean, as a person that also does a movie review podcast, I might have to have you on to talk some movies. You might have to talk some movies.

MARTINE JOHANNA: I am, I have seen almost every good movie there is. Like I, I binge watch movies, like, but in a good way. I know I have one of my best friends is like a,

MARTINE JOHANNA: No, you should watch less and more specific.

MARTINE JOHANNA: He's very, like, very specific. But I watched a lot of and a lot of horror. I'm a big horror fan, like a horror fanatic.

ROB LEE: I'll get into the documentaries and all of that stuff. I have the whole Shudder plan. Watch that pretty regularly. And I love A24 films.

MARTINE JOHANNA: Like, they call it elevated horror, which I find very pretentious, art horror. But still, I really like the genre, so it's fine by me if they call it like that.

ROB LEE: Because I think The Witch was one of those 824s and for a long time I would just troll people. And Stoker. Yeah, I would troll people and I was just like, They're like, stop, don't come to me like that. I don't like goats, right? So when I was like, nah, I don't like this. This is some pagan shit. I don't like it. I ain't really with it.

MARTINE JOHANNA: I don't know. It's the church, I don't know. Hereditary is also really good. This is so many. Yeah. It's all for that. F me on your movie podcast as well.

ROB LEE: Absolutely, so this is the last one I got for you. Rapid fire question and it can only be one sentence. Alright, so keep this in mind. What would you say to delight delirium?

MARTINE JOHANNA: Oh, that's my.

ROB LEE: What would you say to your younger pretentious self?

MARTINE JOHANNA: Oh my God, it was my pretentious street art name. I would like to say like You can do this right now, but you'll get over yourself.

ROB LEE: I definitely was super excited to add that.

ROB LEE: I thought you'd get a kick out of it.

MARTINE JOHANNA: Yeah, because I know I remember when I had exhibitions, I had to introduce myself. And when you shake someone's hand and you're saying you're Delighted Delirium, you learn pretty quickly to use your own name, you know.

MARTINE JOHANNA: You get over it really fast. It's so funny.

ROB LEE: Yeah, I mean, it's definitely I had to had to choose early on, like in my the beginning of my whole podcast thing, I, you know, my initial radio name was Rob Goodtimes. And I was like, that doesn't sound like a last playboy.

MARTINE JOHANNA: You sound like a gigolo.

ROB LEE: I do. I do.

ROB LEE: And yeah, it wasn't going to be a long term sort of sort of fit. So I just went with a shortened version of my actual real name. So and that's what it is. Yeah.

MARTINE JOHANNA: Yeah. So I like it. Well, thank you.

ROB LEE: Yeah. So that is pretty much it for today's conversation. But two things. One, I want to thank you for coming on. We got it. You know, we had this time. This has been great. I want to thank you for coming on. And two, I want to invite and encourage you to share with the listeners any details. You know, you got the show coming up, website, social media, anything you want to share in these final moments. The floor is yours.

MARTINE JOHANNA: Okay, well, you can find my work at martinejohanna.com. It will probably be somewhere in the podcast description. And you're welcome to visit the show. The show opens in Hashimoto Contemporary LA, the 13th of January, and I will be there as well. And also, I will be doing a residency in New York in this in the spring summer. So I'll be living in America for Just two and a half months, but it's awesome. And I'm going to be exhibiting then as well, probably. I'll have to see. But yeah, that's it. And check out my work. I hope you guys like it. And if not, it's OK, too. I'm open to anything.

ROB LEE: And there you have it, folks. I want to again thank Martine Johanna for coming on to the pod. And I'm Rob Lee saying that there's art, culture and community in and around your neck of the woods. You've just got to look for it.