Naomi Winston: Founder of Creative Representation Empire on the Power of Authentic Storytelling

Rob Lee: Welcome to The Truth in This Art, your source for conversations at the intersection of arts, culture, and community. A space for real conversations where people, well, sound like people. I am your host, Rob Lee. Thank you for tuning in. Today, it is my pleasure to welcome my next guest. who strives to create a more just and humane society through her company, the Creative Representation Empire, by illustrating and publishing coloring books and conducting workshops to promote creative representation for black and brown children. Please welcome Naomi Winston. Welcome to the podcast.
Naomi Winston: Hi, thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here.

Rob Lee: Thank you for coming on. I really practiced that a couple of times.

Naomi Winston: No, no, no. That was A1. I was just like, oh, I just saw the bell turn. I was like, oh, we're serious. I said, who? Let me lock in. Let me lock in. I was like, OK, cool. We're serious. All right, cool.

Rob Lee: Um, and, you know, like I was saying, we were able to chat a little bit, you know, before going on. And before we get into the deeper conversation, you know, I want to invite you to, to introduce yourself. I think, you know, I can do sort of the cut and paste, you know, sort of the, uh, what is it? The artist statement, the online thing that I haphazardly or slap dash combined together, but I like to hear it from the person, like, you know, introduce yourself to the folks that often something's missed. So please.

Naomi Winston: Yeah, so my name is Naomi Winston, and I'm the founder and CEO of the Creative Representation Empire. And the whole concept behind the Creative Representation Empire, or TCRE for short, is that we hope to create mirrors of representation for Black and Brown communities, while also simultaneously creating portals of understanding, education, and empathy, and something we like to call cultural curiosity. One of the things that I've really seen, especially post-COVID, is kids right now have such a desire and need to learn about different people, learn about different cultures. But the thing is, they're just so tied to their screens. So I wanted to create something that was tactile, something that was community-oriented, and something that was hands-on. And so we started turning our coloring books from something that was made to create representation to deal with colorism, to deal with feelings of belonging in the Black and Brown community. And now they have transpired into immersive education. They transpired into telling stories for communities and with communities. And I'm really proud to see everything that this company has turned into, including being integrated into schools and youth organizations all over the country. And I definitely think since our recent interview with CBS Mornings, it's just been a beautiful flower to see everything that's coming forth, not only for the company itself, but all the impact we're going to be able to do for the youth in the country as a result of that.

Rob Lee: That's great. And I can only say so only moving upwards, you know, CBS that is trying. And thank you for that. It definitely adds a bit more color to it. And we're going to dive even further, further into it. And, you know, given us a bit of that glimpse of of your journey, perhaps starting with sort of that that earlier life and some of those like inspirations and all those pivotal moments like from your childhood. that maybe had some bearing on how you go about what you do these days or even your interests in what you're doing these days. And I'll add sort of this little piece to it. I didn't come to that realization about why maybe I do this. until I was already doing this podcast. I'd already been a podcaster for about 10 years. And I interviewed a person that was a playwright, does all types of stuff and stuff in theater. And she had mentioned, she was like, you were on a stage at five. You were talking to people at five and this flew away. This laid the foundation. You, I don't know why you didn't see that, bro. And it was great. So for you, is there something like growing up that really you can kind of identify and look back at to see kind of what you're doing nowadays?

Naomi Winston: Yeah, I think that I always knew I was going to be a writer and I think everyone in my life knew I was going to be a writer. I remember my dad got me a typewriter and I very much plagiarized a book and I was like, look, daddy, I'm an author. And I basically just typed up this book that I had and replaced all the words with like my friend's names. And he was just like, so that's plagiarism. We can try again. And I think that one of the things that really resonates with me is my dad had dyslexia or like struggles with dyslexia. And I remember thinking how brilliant of a writer my dad would be if he didn't have dyslexia, because he just spoke so eloquently. He had such a diverse vocabulary. And for me, it's almost helping my dad live his dream of wanting to be a writer through me. And I think that just gives me such a strong foundation and deep love for the work that I do, because it's like I'm getting to preserve my dad's dream through my own work. And I think particularly, I started writing. So I published my first book when I was 17. And I did so because after Trayvon Martin was murdered, it was just like shell-shocking for me. I think I was maybe 12 or 13 at the time. I was still in middle school. And I started writing poetry as a form of resistance, as a form of activism at that young age. And I published my first book with curations of poetry between the ages of 12 to 17. And that first book, when I was going to get it published, my mom just kept saying, you know, I think in the book I mentioned being a Black queer woman. And my mom was like, don't do that because you're only going to put yourself in a box. Like, who else is going to publish your books other than a white cis man who can never relate to what you're feeling? And I was like, thank you for that. And then the next year when I was in college, I started a publishing company because I just could not help thinking about how unfair it was that Black women, people in general, people of color, people who don't conform to the societal norms of what is acceptable. have to put themselves in the box in order to tell their story. And so I started that publishing company. And then through that, I really understood the depth and the need for storytelling and people being their own historians. And then the coloring book company, the Creative Representation Empire has just been the epitome of holding true to authentic storytelling.

Rob Lee: Thank you. And we're absolutely going to come back to that. You're skipping ahead. I like it. I like you've done an interview. It's making my job easier. But yeah, it's I think being able to to take from that. I want to touch on one thing that. I've been doing this sort of creative thing for a long time, and some people say it's not creative, some people say it's not this, it's not that. I'm like, look, I just do it, right? And usually it's not folks that look like me who will try to tell me what I should be doing, or I don't look like a podcast, all of the different things. But I do a movie review podcast, right? And in addition to this, and I had one of the coolest moments, and it's just something about being able to connect with your parents on a level, right? I remember back in the day, this is, I'm old, right? We used to go to Blockbuster's video back in the day.

Naomi Winston: I remember Blockbuster.

Rob Lee: You're 15. It's fine. But we used to go to Blockbuster, right? And my dad would rent all of these old like cheesy B movie action movies. And, you know, we would look at the trailers and all of that stuff. And I remember doing this and doing this movie review podcast. I was sitting here with him. My dad's a Marine. He's like 70, right? You know, ex-Marine or what have you. And we're watching Double Impact. We're watching the old Jean-Claude Van Damme movie. And I'm basically doing a one person podcast, but he's sitting in on it with me. And you see, like, as you mentioned earlier, the veil, you see almost this like look on his face of like pride and like, hey, I introduced you to this movie. you know this movie because I like this movie. And it was like one of those like really cool moments of I'm doing something that might not be the thing that you're doing, but in some way, shape or form in that really nascent early stage, you know, development, your fingerprints as a parent on it. You know, I think that was a really cool moment.

Naomi Winston: Yeah. And I was gonna say 100%. I don't know if you've ever seen It's a Wonderful Life.

Rob Lee: Yes.

Naomi Winston: It's like this really, really old school movie. And I remember that my dad made me fall in love with black and white movies. And I think it's ironic that I make coloring books now. But he was just like, when you watch a black and white movie, you get to color in the movie. You get to decide what color her dress is. You get to decide what color the sky is. And he was like, how beautiful is that that you have the opportunity to literally paint this picture? And, like, ever since then, like, we used to play this game where we used to try to, like, watch the movie in black and white, guess all the colors, and then test ourselves and watch the movie in color later. And it was just, like, a very, like, great memory.

Rob Lee: That's dope. And thank you for sharing that. So let's talk a little bit more about, like, you know, sort of the roots. I see Louisiana, Thibodeau?

Naomi Winston: Thibodeau, yeah.

Rob Lee: It's like, it's a coach name with that name. That's the only reason I got it. Otherwise, I'm like…

Naomi Winston: No, no, you did good. Great job.

Rob Lee: Xavier University, HBCU, all of that good stuff. Talk about sort of in ways, maybe environmentally speaking, you touched on a little bit earlier, but environmentally speaking, like how that has an impact and play on your approach to your work, your approach to creativity, your approach to entrepreneurship. Obviously, I'm based in Baltimore and you know, sort of the hustle, the grind, the DIY of it all, even though people don't think I'm from here, because I got the accent thing, too, you know.

Naomi Winston: Yeah, no, I heard it. I heard the two. I heard it. There you go.

Rob Lee: No, you got. So so in that talk about how the environmental component has had an impact on how you approach, you know, the creative side, but also the entrepreneurial side.

Naomi Winston: Yeah, you know, I always like to say it was never a question of if I was going to start a business, it was purely just when and what it was going to be. My dad does real estate. My mom was a business teacher at a high school. My sibling has several companies. My grandfather, who raised 10 children in the middle of the civil rights movement in Louisiana, had his own company that enabled him to be I think maybe a millionaire by the time he died or by the time his estate was passed down to my dad and his siblings. And I was like, that is so beautiful. And I think for me, I'm very original in what you would say, what it was like to grow up in a predominantly white town in the South. It was just so community oriented. It was like, it didn't matter what they look like up and down the street. My first book was actually dedicated to one of my English teachers in high school who was a white woman. And she just poured so much into me. And I think that was just a very beautiful experience. But I think one of the stories I always like to tell is how transformational my HBCU was for me. Because I don't know if you've heard, but Xavier is one of the hardest universities in the country to graduate from. And I got my degree a year early. And Xavier made me fight for it. But there's a story I like to call is my A story. So have you ever read The Scarlet Letter? In high school, we read the Scarlet Letter, and all of our English departments were so cool, and we got to do a bunch of different projects. And one of the projects was, you had to pick what you thought your biggest personality flaw was, and wear the symbol of it around school. And all of your teachers and friends would have to guess what your letter meant. And I put A for anger issues, because who isn't angry at 16? I mean, like, everyone's angry at 16. And no, every single one of my teachers and my friends put aggressive. and it was just mind-boggling to me because I was just like I was literally such a sweet easygoing person and I was just genuinely confused and I got angry about the fact everyone was calling me aggressive because I just didn't understand it and then when you're a history major at Xavier your last paper that you write to exit as your exit exam is how does Xavier transform you as a person? And I'll never forget that my last line of my paper was, I realized that I was never aggressive. I was a black girl in a space that wasn't prepared to give me grace. And I think that there are so many moments in my life where I think about those late nights at Xavier. I think about crying every day in my freshman year because it was so hard. And it's just like, Xavier gave me the thing that no other space has been able to, which is the permission to fail, the permission to be angry, and the permission to be tired, exhausted, and the permission to try stuff and fail. And that's not an experience that you can get just anywhere. And I think that environmentally wise, I don't know what my life would have been like if I would have went to my local PWI or if I wouldn't have done my major in history. But I know that who I am right now and the person, the personality, all the great things I've been able to do in the world is directly reflective of everything that Xavier poured into me.

Rob Lee: Thank you. That HBCU experience.

Naomi Winston: One of a kind, truly.

Rob Lee: Yeah, um, you know, I had the Morgan thing and, you know, at the time people were not graduating in four years. I did the four. I'm not an overachiever like someone may be on this podcast with me. But I'll say like, you know, you know, honors program, a lot of credits, all of the stuff fully, you know. And I think a lot of sort of that wherewithal that I have and being able to do so much and maybe even bordering on being a workaholic comes from that experience. But having a certain expectation of myself and, you know, I pass that down, as I was saying earlier, when I'm working with my students. I'm like, yeah, this is the real world, though. It's like you got to balance the two and in giving that grace. But I think a lot of times folks expect the grace to be the preset. And it's just like, because I look like this and they look like this, I can relate in a certain way. But also it's like you still have to get your stuff done. You still got to be. And it's sort of balancing those those two things because, you know, I do this and I do these interviews and I have folks that just don't show up and they use sort of certain things either don't show up as in being engaged, being prepared, or just, hey, I'm just going to bluff you six times in a row. And yeah, yeah, yeah.

Naomi Winston: I was like, oh, no, that's ridiculous.

Rob Lee: It's wild. And it's sort of this thing where, where'd you go to school? You know what I mean? Because we didn't have that. We didn't have sort of that thing. It was like, you got to get your stuff done. That's the pre, that's the pre-req actually getting your work done and then being able to, you know, develop and grow past it. So when I came out and going into that first job, I remember the first interview I had, um, they, they flew me down and all of this stuff to, I'd never been on a plane before. And, That sounds really hickish, by the way, from the East Coast city or Atlantic City. But I remember going down there and I'm just trying to figure it out. It's like the artist thing. You don't know what you're doing. You're just like, whatever. Yeah. I ordered the most expensive thing on the menu, which was really stupid, but I didn't know. I got like, I was like in Texas.

Naomi Winston: You got excited. Yeah.

Rob Lee: I was one of those kind of tourist guys. I was like, yeah, I'll get this New York strip steak. I get beef in Texas. Right. And I remember I'm with all of my kind of peers in that final semester. And so this is like years of being in a harnessed program and having sort of this mentality. And I'm trying to paint this picture here. of the preparation that goes into it. And I'm there with people from like Penn State, these big schools, Duke, all of this. And they're like, well, you're not really like really connecting with us and trying to talk with us. It was like all you guys are competition. And I said, it's stone face. And I was like, I'm with this job and you're kind of people in the way. And I'm from a school where everyone's saying I never heard of. What's an HBCU? I'm listening to that.

Naomi Winston: Yeah.

Rob Lee: And I'm like the only black guy and I'm a six foot four, 300 pound black guy in this session. And I don't look like I'm supposed to be here. So having sort of my work was a one because I went to that HBCU. I was already ahead of them. And I think being, having that HBCU sort of experience as you touched on is like none other.

Naomi Winston: Yeah, no, I, there are so many situations where I just feel like HBCUs almost save some people's lives, or it definitely like deters them from the path that they could have been on.

Rob Lee: Yeah. So you touched on earlier, and I'm still a little blown, you know, shout out to you, you know, publishing house as a teenager, just getting it. So, I mean, I was, look, I was barely looking in a mirror when I was a teenager, that's stupid. But, Could you, you know, having, you know, being, being around, being around that sort of space, being able to kind of make your own lane. That's the thing I take from it. It was something it was it wasn't something there that was going to fit who you were. So you made your own. Right. That's that's really, really great. And it's I relate. What are some of the challenges and some of the triumphs of being able to essentially do that, like a lot of people will maybe look at it, you know, years removed, like, oh, yeah, you know, I did this at this age. But you're still, you know, relatively like close to that time frame. So you can remember it like you're not 20 years and you remember it. So talk a bit about some of those those challenges and some of those like early triumphs, like, you know, being a publisher, having your first book, having multiple books at this point. But talk about that a bit.

Naomi Winston: Yeah, you know, I think that As I've gotten older, I actually started working on my own memoir, which is crazy because I'm like so young. But one of the things that I really want to write about or talk about is for a long time, I've had this like precomposed, predisposed thought about what success was supposed to be. And I'd like nowhere where I thought I was going to be when I started college. And for a while, I think I started publishing books because that's what people expected from me. Like my parents always said I was going to be a writer. So I was like, OK, this I'm going to be a writer. I'm going to be a writer. And I think that breathing that type of life into a child does a lot of good. But I think it also made me think about everything in my life just as a checkpoint. And one of the things that I've really been saying to a lot of the youth that I've been mentoring or my peers that I talk to is we all have like guiding principles in life. And I think that starting that publishing company was one of my first guiding principles, which is as a Black person, we shouldn't have to pick if we're going to be Black or a woman or gay this day. I used to say that I'm Black first, a woman second, and gay last. Because I can change my perception of how I'm perceived in the world based off of how I dress, based off of how I act. I can hide. I can mask. And I'm just like… how that's feeding into like supremacy and homophobia to just try to mask who I am as a person. And so for me, I think a lot of those early triumphs were giving Black women the permission to tell their stories in a safe space. One of the books, I actually ended up publishing three books for other people. Two of them were for my classmates. One of them, I started the process of helping my mother publish her book. I helped one of my classmates illustrate a children's book. And one, it taught me a lot. about my own self-discipline. You can ask her. She's amazing. The book is selling well. She's a teacher. She uses her own book in her own classes. But it took us so long to finish that book because I was just like, I don't like this style. I don't like this. I don't like this. I'm not where I want to be in order to create this book for you. And we eventually did it, and it's amazing, and it's cool. But I think for me, it made me come face to face with my own limitations, and my own limitation was myself. It was my lack of ability to allocate time. It was my inability to stand by my word. And I think that those were really hard things for me to do. And I'm still obviously learning now because I'm so young in my career. I'm so young in my business. And I think that was the hardest part. But I think the best part for me was helping one of my peers in college publish her book. And I read it. And I think that's one of the things I really missed when I had my first publisher was because she didn't even read my book. She didn't even know what I was talking about in the book. She just, like, basically threw it into the system and left it where it was. Like, she forgot about my book for, like, three or four months. I was constantly emailing her, hitting her up, and I'm like, hey, is there any progress or anything like that? And I think it's one of those things where it's like, I got discounted because of my age. Like, oh, you're 16. Like, you really don't care about publishing this book. I'm like, no, I do care. And being able to tell her like, yeah, I read your book. Like, I think your story is so powerful. Thank you for sharing it. Like, that's so beautiful of you've been able to do that. And being able to, like, hand her her first copy of her book was a feeling that I think about a lot. And I hope that that's what my work continues to be in the future is the opportunity to give people to tell their stories without having to sacrifice themselves to do so. Wow.

Rob Lee: No, thank you. It's very important for folks to be able to, and I said it in the introduction, where people are able to share their authentic story, their authentic selves, their full selves. And your point earlier around the different masks that one can wear. And as I said earlier, and I've been talking about this a bit more, you know, the notion of, I've been a podcaster for 15 years. So I like, it's probably around your age where I started podcasting, which makes me feel so old saying that, geez, but. being told that I don't, I don't look like I fit or having to be, you know, short shrift or what have you. And when I talk to people who are in the industry, radio people, they're like, Oh, you're like from LA or New York, right? And I was like, I'm from Baltimore. And I'm, I wear that with like, you know, a stamp of approval. And it's just very interesting sort of being sold in a certain way. And I don't want to, I think it's always too easy, but I know it's sitting there and you know, I'll share this with you. Um, One of the things I was sharing with you earlier before we got started is sort of, you know, the changing of the presentation. And I remember I did something for HBCU Week back in September for MPT, Maryland Public Television. And I just felt like, oh, I'm back with my people. I didn't have this weird sort of hat in hand. Oh, there's the guy with his little podcast, creative thing that we like. But he's not quite the person. He doesn't have the Micah stamp on him or he's not this presentation. And, you know, I don't know. It was one of those moments where I realized it. And I was like, it's not about me. It's not like I try not to include myself in it for better or for worse. I try to get stories out there and try to facilitate stories being shared, stories that I think are important, stories like yours. And I've heard, you know, sort of, well, you have to put yourself more in it because we like the personalities. I was like, that's for somebody else. Yeah, it's a very like sort of interesting dance that's played. And this is going to be a loose segue into this question that you don't have. But it's a new question I have. I think it's important. We tell ourselves these stories. We tell ourselves these lies at times because it's not true. What is what is a lie or story that you tell yourself often that maybe impacts how you go about like creating how you go about being a business person?

Naomi Winston: You know, that's really interesting because one of the things that I believe in giving myself two focus points for a year. I don't set goals based off of what I want to accomplish. I set goals based off of who I want to be. And this year, a big goal for me is finding balance. And another goal is always authenticity, to always be my most authentic self. And part of that is I'm reading a book called Rest is Resistance. I'm sure you've heard of it from the Nat ministry. And I think one of the biggest lies that I've told myself is one that I've been indoctrined to believe, and I'm sure it has remnants of slavery. I literally grew up down the street from a plantation, several, in fact. And I remember when I was a kid, my dad always used to tell me, if a man doesn't work, a man doesn't eat. And so for a very long time, it gave me this stigma in my head that if I did not work hard enough, I did not deserve rest, or I did not deserve to eat. And I would just keep working and working until I felt like I had done enough to deserve that. And I think one of the biggest lies that I tell myself, that I'm obviously continuously working to correct, is that I need to work myself to exhaustion in order to deserve a break. And I think that I've come onto the cusp of burnout several times last year, barely pulling myself out of it. And I think that That's one of the things like I want to heal in our community. That's one of the things I really want to heal in myself is we We are ancestrally obligated to rest and I think that's been a big piece for me is like in order to continue building a company that works in order to If i'm going to be a role model if i'm going to be an example for the future black boys black girls like kids of color who want to publish or who want to tell their stories, do I want to set the precedent to them that you have to work yourself into exhaustion to succeed, when that's not true and it's been proven to not be true. So my biggest thing is breaking through grind culture or hustle culture and being like, I can succeed in abundance, but peacefully, easily. And that's a big thing for me this year. That's big Aquarius energy, though, you know, like, you know, it is big Aquarius energy.

Rob Lee: Because, you know, I remember and thank you for sharing. I relate. I you know, you're saying that I was feeling seen because it's yeah, it's a very similar vibe where, you know, I had to and I think I'm going to steal from you in that regard of like having these these two points that where do I want to be at? And I have these different goals like but they're they're loose. They're not as rigid like. You know, last year I wanted to have a coffee named after me. I got a coffee named after you, which was really cool. You know, brand partnership, gang, gang, gang. And, you know, but when it comes to the grind culture and even the sort of social media component, we always have to have out there being seen. So in it, you want to feel confident, you want to feel comfortable with what you're putting out there creatively. I don't do this chasing a dollar. I do this because it has something more important attached to it. But I have dude bros telling me I need to 10x my business. And I'm like, I don't know if I want to do that, bro. I kind of just like talking to interesting people and the community is important to me. But also I got to use my business degree, that Morgan State business degree.

Naomi Winston: And be like, you pay money for it. It's an investment. We need to get a return on investment. 100%.

Rob Lee: But it is this thing where, you know, the burnout thing, that's that's the thing that I'm hearing. And, you know, I did this creative mornings thing. And, you know, people are aware of me and what I do, even though they, you know, sometimes act like they don't don't know me, whatever. But I was there and I was sharing sort of my story, this idea I was speaking. I wasn't a podcast setting, but I was, you know, speaking to an audience of folks. And I was coming off of a year where I did 300 plus podcasts. And, you know, with all the other obligations that I had in real life, full time job, everything. And I had like two or three questions like, yeah, when are you gonna take a break, bro? He's like, you're doing a lot. And I was like, well, until I get bored. But really, it was something else. It was a lie. I was like, oh, no, no. You know, because, you know, I'm fueled by pettiness. I was like, now I'm going to show you. I'm going to show you all of it. And so in the subsequent years or seasons, because we're in this new season now, you know, last year I was like, I'm going to do half what I did the year before. And this year I'm going to do half of what I did there. And I was like, this is the number that feels normal. But I want to be able to do some of these other things that are of interest. And that's sort of where my thinking is shifted to and not feeling like I'm lazy or not feeling like I'm doing my practice. It's more so like this is what I want to do. And what do I fill that other time with that moves the needle in a direction that I want to do authentically?

Naomi Winston: Mm hmm. No, I completely agree. I did nine coloring books. In like a 10-month span, one of the coloring books was designed, published, and in hand within a week and a half. First of all, I told that partner, I was like, I will never do that again, but I'm glad we got it finished for the deadline. But it definitely, it teaches you like your limitations, but it also shows you like the immense amount of like strength and dedication that you have towards a mission. You know, when you're doing it healthily, because I was in my head calculating, I was like 300 plus podcasts a year. That's like on average one a day, but you have to edit them and then post them. I was like, wow, that was impressive. I know you was tired that year, but that was amazing.

Rob Lee: I mean, I did eight, I was at one point I was averaging 18 in a week cause I was just having like sort of busier periods. And uh, my partner, she was like, yeah, she talked to me recently. What do you got coming up this week? I was like three interviews. She was like, it used to be 18. I was like, don't remind me. So I'd be remiss if I didn't ask this. So let's say, give us a sort of a walkthrough of what that process looks like in building one out, you know, building a book out, you know, the sort of the, you know, the full process. What does that look like? Let's say you're going to, you know, cover the black and brown boy and girl podcasts. that are out there. Let's say you're going to do a new project. What's the start point, something in the middle and something towards the end when you're working on your books?

Naomi Winston: Yeah, so we do two types of books. We'll do partner books where we'll partner with organizations or I'll come up with a concept. So basically, number one, I'll just observe the community, hear what I'm saying, what am I feeling really passionate about, what do I feel like needs to come next, and then that usually informs what the book or the concept for the book And then much to some of the disdain of some of my friends, I have a rule, and it's if you take pictures of my phone, you're automatically obligated to be in a coloring book if I decide to use you in a coloring book. So some of my friends will wake up to messages and be like, hey, I just finished your page. Congratulations. You're going to be in the next book. Or like I told my group of friends, I was like, congratulations, you guys are the cover of the next book. Yay. And so I'll usually go through my phone and be like, okay, what of these photos do I already have? What pictures have people already submitted and consented to that kind of match the vibe of what I'm going for? And then I'll take a spreadsheet and I'll break out some different affirmations and then I'll match the pages to the affirmations that they go with. And then I'll kind of take that affirmation and use that as a way to inform what goes into the background. Let me see. actually I'm one of the coloring books that I was coloring for Black History Month but it kind of it kind of works in the way of let's see who's the one I like right now all right So like Kobe, so like this is the one that's Kobe. So it's like I kind of like took an image of him and then did something that's associated with his name. And then I did the research on it to input it in there. And then I will trace the images, I'll add the effects and the backgrounds, and then I'll put it together in Canva and then submit it for publishing. It's actually a very straightforward process, but what I think is really beautiful about the way that I do it, and particularly, like, I know that you can relate your desire for storytelling and helping people kind of, like, get their voices out there, is a big piece of some of the coloring books that we've done recently are giving communities the opportunities to tell their stories. So, for example, I partnered with Native American Lifelines, which is an indigenous organization that provides free health care for mid-Atlantic indigenous people. and I basically took a social media campaign that they did and the affirmations that the individuals put and I kind of like matched it. I studied their culture and like what symbols were important to them and inputted them into the images and compared it to like the different tribes and stuff like that. It's like the ability to not only help people tell their stories but to amplify it in ways that are going to resonate best with them. And I think that's what I'm really passionate about, is making education fun by making it something that's visually interesting, but also making storytelling engaging again by helping those communities tell their stories and helping other people learn about those communities.

Rob Lee: That's great. I'm trying not to feel like a proud dad, Ty, because I'm old now.

Naomi Winston: I was like dad, brother. I have a lot of big sisters and big brothers in this city that have adopted me recently.

Rob Lee: That was a look of pride on my face, though. That's all I can really say about that. And again, you know, I like the way that you described it. It's like the process when you're doing it, you're in it, you know, of like, I'm making this. This is how I make it. And it's not rarefied. It's something that is like it takes your approach. It takes sort of your sensibilities, your secret sauce to produce your books. But also it is not something that, you know, someone's like, I want to do the same thing that you want to do. I'm not going to plagiarize, but I want to do the same thing that you're going to do that you do. It's not something that, oh, only the special and the light can do this. It's like you have your own approach and your own secret sauce to it. But this is sort of the roadmap almost. Hey, take this and make it your own.

Naomi Winston: Right. Yeah, that's one of the things that I'm really hoping to do in Baltimore City, making Baltimore the headquarters and like the launching pad for what everything this could be. And a big piece of what I want to do is help young people in Baltimore tell their stories by doing a similar concept. and helping them become published authors. Because just the students that I've worked with through various programs, I have never met a city full of so many talented individuals outside of New Orleans. Like Baltimore feels so much like New Orleans to me. And I think that Baltimore is the perfect place to build an education company because there are so many bright, young individuals who want to be heard and want to be seen. And a big goal for me in this next year is to help them feel seen.

Rob Lee: That's wonderful. So I got two more real questions and I was, I didn't mention before we got started, but you get to rapid fire questions too. Everyone gets to rapid fire questions.

Naomi Winston: I was like, I'm ready. You know, I, I, I'm ready.

Rob Lee: So, um, speak, speak to me a bit about, you know, I, I, I don't like the word impact. I think it's the, the sort of like business school and kind of, I, uh, rebel against some of that talk because it always sounds weird. I'd be curious to know more about the blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. But tell me about like any any stories or interactions like, you know, you've had with folks who've encountered your work and who've like, wow, I'm glad something that's representative, something where I feel seen, something that I can connect with. Talk a bit about that, some of that feedback and those stories you have from your work.

Naomi Winston: Wow, that's my favorite question. And I'm really happy to say that over the past four or five years I've been doing this, there's been continuously more. I think one of the ones that comes to mind first is, I remember when I only had the two coloring books, Black Narrative Future and Black Women Narrative Future, a man had bought a coloring book for his son and he sent me a two-page email review because the review he wanted to leave didn't have enough space on the website so he just sent me an email and he basically talked about how his him and his son were growing up in a predominantly white area at the time or not black area and his son was starting to ask more questions about race and ethnicity and why he didn't look like people around him and he used my coloring book as a means of communicating that with him And so when I first started doing the coloring books, Black Man of Future and Black Man of Future, I used to hand write notes in every single book. I had an order of 60 books. I'm like, y'all don't have to wait because I'm handwriting in all of these. And I remember the little boy's name because his name was Sol. And I was like, oh, I know this in Spanish. This means sun. And I wrote his message about how he's going to illuminate the world around him. And one of the end part of the message in the boy's book is always, what is it? It was always, I may not understand how you feel as a black man, but I love you all the same. And he was just like, I'm a Latino man raising a Latino and black son, and you just encompassed everything that I have not been able to say to my son or like me to find the words to. And it was beautiful. I ended up having a Zoom call with a little boy, which was cool. He showed me his Nerf guns and his stop animation. It was just a great experience to see how my books impacted just one child. And I literally spent the next couple of months, I'm like, I don't have to sell another book in my life. One life, that's all I needed. And then recently, since moving to Baltimore, I did our first immersive art exhibit, which I'm really excited to do more of. But I basically took one page from each coloring book, hand drew it onto a canvas, and had people come in and live paint the exhibit. And it was great. And one of my mentors from my Venture for America program, he brought his daughter. And I was looking at some of the images after the show, and I realized that the way her hair was styled looked exactly like the picture she was painting. And it just gave me such a depth of warmth and love. And when she first walked in, she was just like, I want to be an artist when I grow up. And I was like, you're already an artist. What do you mean? And he quoted that as his favorite thing from the art show. And I think that there's no better feeling as an author. There's no better feeling as an artist. There's no better feeling as a young Black person than seeing the fact that making people feel seen in a visual component, making people feel heard, and then being a reflection of what they've always been told they couldn't have. And those two moments, I think, stick out, but there are so many countless others, but those two have definitely been my favorites.

Rob Lee: That was great. And thank you. Yeah, that's powerful, powerful stuff. I mean, there's not much more to say there. Um, so I got, I got one last real question and, and I'm thinking about sort of, you know, sort of the technical component or even the entrepreneurial component somewhere within the process, within the journey, but within the process, I think. Well, I know folks, creative folks, folks that not necessarily artists, but folks who do things that have a creative sensibility. We're problem solvers. Yeah. Could you, you know, maybe talk us through, like, what maybe at the time felt like, I'm never going to recover. This is the biggest problem ever. That now looks like like a cakewalk. Like, it's nothing. It's whatever. Like, talk to talk a bit about that. Like, For me, it was whenever I get a new piece of equipment, I'm like, I'm never going to learn how to do this. I got a podcast due today. And then I just look at it. I can just like set my system up. What I've been really looking at, whatever, click, click, doing good. So talk about sort of like that. And I, and I guess what I'm getting at is, you know, as time passes, things become easier, I suppose.

Naomi Winston: You know, I'll definitely, I'll definitely say it's one creating coloring books, obviously. When I started making coloring books, I had no graphic design experience. I taught myself graphic design, I taught myself publishing, I taught myself, like I'm completely self-taught the majority of everything that I do for the company. And I remember, because I actually found it when I was home for Christmas, I found my original sketchbook that had the original sketches of the first couple of pages of the coloring book. And it was just so cool. I'm like, wow, in the next couple of years, this is going to be history. This notebook is going to be worth thousands, millions of dollars in the next 10, 20 years. That's so cool to see. And it's cool to have a piece of your own history, your own museum in your hand. And so that was number one. I also published my first coloring book when I was online for my organization. And I'll never forget that I deleted the coloring book twice. I was so angry. I deleted it twice. Luckily, I still had the images, but I had to put it together. And I put it together very meticulously, like the images matched the affirmations. And that's why coloring books used to be 100 coloring pages long. So I had to redo it twice, which Don't get me started. But I think one of the ways that I really worked through that is I had this amazing mentor in New Orleans and he was just, before I left and before I moved to Baltimore, and I was like, what do I need to do to make this something real? What do I have to do to build this into a company? And he was like, you need more books. And I'm just like, they take so much time. Like I can do this and this and this. And he was just like, optimize your process. and make the books smaller and do books that are more educational, do a wider variety. And so I went from within a year, I went from three coloring books to 12. And all drawn, all community curated, three of those 12 books are with different partner organizations that receive like a percentage of our profits to donate back to their efforts. And it was like doing, you know, like they say, like practice makes perfect. And I think that it helped me to take even more of a sense of pride into my work, because it was just like, I'm not only just making this for me, like it got to a point maybe on the fourth or fifth book where I was just like, these are books that are going to be around forever, that are going to change the lives of children and communities across the world. I need to put more effort. There will be no spelling errors. There will be no wrong lines. There will be no anything. And it really got to the point where like, as an artist, like if I was not, if I was in a bad mood, I wouldn't draw. If I was in a bad mood, I wouldn't write affirmations. So literally, I always say that my first two books were poetry books, and they just came from a lot of anger and frustration. and not feeling like I could do anything to change the world around me. But my coloring books are the opposite. They became the manifestation of everything that I love, everything I care about. They became the dedication that I have for the world around me. It was like, I would say like, my first two coloring books felt like me not being able to do anything to change the world. My coloring books are the representation that I found my purpose, and I found the one thing I could do to make the world a better place. And I take a lot of pride in the work and the patience that it takes to be them now. But to answer your question, it's systemization. Yes.

Rob Lee: That's great, and I'm on the same page. I'm on the same page in doing this and pulling all of these episodes together. It's definitely a system. I had a question in the sort of day job, and I was talking with a guy who was a data analyst, and he was like, so how many hours are you putting in? What's the end result? How can you trim part of that down? And I was like, well, and now that's the process. I even when I bring on someone who's going to be an assistant or my editor who knows going to listen to this, you know, there is sort of this standardization as to how we go about things, because and I relate in the same way. I don't want to like kind of, you know, you know, half, you know it. I want to really put in the effort, because again, I recognize the sort of impact or even the notion of someone spending their time with me. You've spent this time, you've prepared, you've read over the questions and you know, I don't want to waste your time and I wouldn't want to waste someone who's listening to this time. So it's the thing to put in sort of that effort and have things sounding right and have things having some meaning and significance and so on. And it's taking pride in what you're doing. So definitely the system thinking component is right here, just right here. Yeah. All right. So that's that's a good spot for us to end on a real questions. So now I got some rapid fire questions for you.

Naomi Winston: OK.

Rob Lee: And as I say to people all the time, don't overthink these. You know what you said is what you said. You know, it could change in the future. But, you know, it's kind of what this is right now. All right. What was a piece of advice that helped guide you on your path? Like the quote that comes to mind?

Naomi Winston: Oh. This is what I lived by in high school. I'd rather choke on greatness than nibble on mediocrity.

Rob Lee: I like it. I like it.

Naomi Winston: I mean, I, I usually just nibble on like pistachios, but still, yeah, you know, it's just, you know, I like to nibble on cookies, but that's the reason you making me think I need to get back to the gym.

Rob Lee: What kind of cookie now? That's a, this is a bonus question now. What kind of cookie? I'm going to be, be a, be a good Aquart.

Naomi Winston: Pillsbury fresh baked cookies. I used to bake half a dozen cookies a day.

Rob Lee: Oh, okay, cool, cool, cool. I was, you know, I'm assuming it was the chocolate chips.

Naomi Winston: No, they were chocolate chips. I would just fresh bake cookies every day. It was a problem, honestly.

Rob Lee: I mean, look, I got cookies downstairs that I'm trying not to touch right now. And they were just in the refrigerator. They were store bought because I'm not a baker. You know, I just, you know, and we'll talk about crabs later too. That's a whole conversation. Anyway. What is the hashtag that best describes you as the person?

Naomi Winston: me as a person. I want to go Oh, my friends think this one is so funny because my Wi Fi password, but it's hashtag find your purpose. Because I feel like it's the thing that I just live by. And it's the thing that I always preach. And I think that every time I type in my Wi Fi password, it just reminds me that I'm that much closer to continuously fulfilling like what I'm meant to do on this earth.

Rob Lee: I love it. I have I'm in the home studio currently, and this is where I do a majority of my recordings and all of my creative stuff in here. So all of my coloring books, I got coloring books here. I enjoy them. And, you know, that little marquee thing that you can buy a little small joint. I have one. You can swap out what the words are in there. And the one I've had in there for the six years has been up is what is real. And it's something I used to read a lot of like speculative fiction and Asimov stuff. And it's this concept of reality because you had like robots and all of this different things. But I think it's also sort of a mental health component that's there, too. Like, man, this is the worst thing ever. Nah, there's stuff that could be worse. And just kind of having this concept of what's real, what is sort of your mom playing trick shooting and all of that stuff. So seeing that is this sort of reminder, even when things are going well, it's just like, yeah, it's going well right now. But what is real?

Naomi Winston: Right. No, that's real. Well, there you go.

Rob Lee: See, now we're having just a fake Deep Aquarius conversation now. These are the last two. What is your favorite movie?

Naomi Winston: Oh, okay. Ah, the Saw series, just the entire, I'm a, I'm a horror movie girl, the entire Saw series. And I know that, that sounds so contradictory. I make coloring books. I love horror movies for fun.

Rob Lee: I have Shudder. I watch all of the, I make, I bought Saw X online so my girl could watch it. Cause I was like, we need to talk about this. And she was like, love those. Now this, this is shows you how, washed I am. Back in the day, when Circuit City still existed. I had a DVD of the trailer of Saw, the first movie. Yeah.

Naomi Winston: Oh, no. I was like, I know what Circuit City is. No, that's crazy. Yeah.

Rob Lee: Yeah. 2004. And I was like, I remember the girl I was dating at the time. She was like, yo, is that dude getting his ankle cut off? I was like, yeah, mind your business. I'm over here enjoying myself.

Naomi Winston: I will not lie. I did the same thing to my partner. I made her go to the movies to see Saw 10 with me and she was like, no. She's like, what is all of this? And then we sat down for like two weeks and every day we would watch a different Saw movie. It was great.

Rob Lee: We hum the theme to each other.

Naomi Winston: No, me too. No, we must be reprimanded.

Rob Lee: All right, this is the last one. This is the last one.

Naomi Winston: All right, last question.

Rob Lee: What is your scarlet letter in 2024? Full circle. Boom.

Naomi Winston: Oh, okay! The Scarlet Letter as in my worst quality?

Rob Lee: But 2024, you mentioned the one throwing back, if it's still A, that could be, you know, but what does it know now of time removed and you being a successful business person and successful artist? And your locks have gotten longer and all of the stuff.

Naomi Winston: First of all, they may not get too much longer than this. These locks are heavy. Um, I would say my worst personality trigger, like the thing that I struggle with the most is definitely balance. Because I feel like, you know, being a black woman trying to rest, but also trying to succeed and the structure is, for me, it's always wanting to figure out what the balance is between perseverance, like self-discipline versus like my need for self-care. And I think like that's going to be my biggest thing for this year. So we'll call it B. Maybe I'll just go down the alphabet. A, B, C. I'll just pick a new one for the next 20 something years.

Rob Lee: I'm already at C because it's for carbohydrates. That's fair. So that's it, actually. That is it for all of the questions. And one, I want to thank you for coming on and taking the time to chat it out with me. And two, I want to invite and encourage you to share with the listeners where they can check you out, all things you, social media, website, all of that good stuff. The floor is yours.

Naomi Winston: Yeah, so if you guys want to check out our website, go ahead and go to the creative representation empire.com. You can also follow us on social media at revolutionary hearts. When s i n d.com and you know, since it is Black History Month, we just dropped these brand new hoodies are everything has a purpose and you are everything hoodies are going to be available and you will get a free copy of the we are black history color look to go along with it.

Rob Lee: And there you have it, folks. I want to again thank Naomi Winston from the Creative Representation Empire for coming on and sharing a bit of her story and background on her company. And I'm Rob Lee saying that there's art, culture, and community in and around your neck of the woods. You've just got to look for it.