The Truth In This Art: Stories That Matter

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): Welcome to The Truth In Us Art, your source of conversations connecting arts, culture, and community. These are stories that matter, and I am your host, Rob Lee. Today, I am thrilled to welcome a Taiwanese-American multidisciplinary artist who lives and works in Baltimore, Maryland. She creates large-scale paintings and installations that envision a post-apocalyptic society ruined by human negligence.

Her work, Big-Ass Snakes on a Plane, is currently on public view in the Station North Arts and Entertainment District in Baltimore, Maryland. Please welcome to the program, Phaan Howng We're recording, and I just thought of my first question if you'll indulge me. Go for it. So thank you for joining me today.

Phaan Howng: Oh, you're welcome. Great thanks for having me here.

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): So having me here, this is your story. Oh yeah, you're right. I mean, it's to your pod ether.

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): Yeah, pod ether, the podosphere.

Phaan Howng: Is that what it's called, the podosphere?

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): I know that some people are trying to make that a term. Oh my God. I make up words all the time, and I feel like that's just a thing in the podcast world. People make up words like everything is a pun, everything is a quamantie or something like that.

Phaan Howng: It's a wild, interesting, such a different world.

Phaan Howng: It should be imploded. The pod and these cats, and these cats who pod.

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): It could be like the end of Stranger Things. It's like, oh well, it's ending soon. So starting off with sort of this first question, more with a vein of like introduction. So if you could, introduce yourself, right? And then the why and the when and the why you started your art practice.

Phaan Howng: I see, okay. Hello. My name is Fawn. Hi, Fawn. Hi. I pronounce like a baby here. Not spelled that way, but Fawn Hong is my last name. But usually I go just like say hi, I'm Fawn just because my last name is even hard for me to say.

And then I had so many different variations on it that I don't even know what my last name is anymore. I didn't look some of those up. Right? And then I was like, you know what? Maybe I should be like Cher or Madonna and just go with Fawn. You know? And but anyway.

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): I mean, at least you're not.

Phaan Howng: I digress. Like at least you're not called your, your, your handle, right? Yeah, that truth in the dark right there. Oh my God. My name is Rob.

Phaan Howng: Well, like the problem is like with handles. Okay. Yeah.

Phaan Howng: I know I need to introduce myself and why I became an artist. But like I lately because of like Instagram handles and how people have different Instagram handles. I can't like sometimes I can't. I just can't like, like there's artists that I know that I've met hung out with, you know, I know them.

And for some reason, I don't know if it's cause I'm like in my 40s, I'm getting perimenopause or something like that. You know, like it's just like all I can think of is their Instagram name or I just completely fucked their names up wrong. Or I'm just like, I don't know. I don't know anymore.

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): And I think people put more of a grip on it that there's a degree of maybe permanence with those names now because at a point I've seen people like before Instagram had that sort of you, if you're changing this, you can't just change that. You get willy nilly. Yeah. Yeah. So there is a permanence with it. It's like, I'm going to remember you as this.

Yeah. And I might forget that name or I know some people who they go by a handle. That's just like sort of an art name. Like, like the guy I was talking about earlier, my buddy quirky. And it's like, I know your real name in funny story. We were confused to be the same person because his real name sounds like Rob Lee. And I was like, quirky. It's like, no, his real name is this. And I was like, Oh, it sounds just like my real name. So that doubles down on us being considered to be the same person for about two years. Wow. I'm 10 years younger than him and he's five nine. Wow. Or five 10. That's so crazy.

Phaan Howng: But yeah, like sometimes it's become our identity. I don't know. It's weird. Like what a world we live in. This world. Oh my God. But anyway, speaking of myself and how I decided to become an artist and you know, I mean, I went to undergrad for painting at this place called Bac University. And this was like one million years ago, 2004.

Oh, wow. When I graduated and then, you know, like took a break or with the intention of like going to grad school because all my teachers are like, Oh, you just go to grad school. Like, you know, and I'm like, okay, like no professional practices or anything, but also 2004. You know, like, what are you going to get?

Nothing. So I did what like, you know, typically every college student does is move back home and I moved back home back to South Florida where I am, I guess I could say mostly from and which I don't usually like telling people because I feel like I don't want to be like associated with like Florida man. And it's just, you know, like so many bad things there right now.

It's very unfortunate. And so I guess in a way, like I got stuck there and long story short, like, you know, had multiple jobs of like where, you know, like one, like being like managing a bar or like all this stuff. And then finally, you know, but all like these jobs were like with the intention of like, I'm going to make art, you know, like I'm going to have time to make art. This is going to like somehow give me time to make art without like, no, I was like in my 20s, young and dumb. And then, and then one day, magically have this office job, you know, fast forward. And then the whole setup was just exactly like your office space cubicle.

TPS reports and stuff. Yes, like mine as well be and like hanging out, water fountain, like getting mad at your your device or like your printing devices and and like the cubicles were real, like they're really real. And then like, and just even like the whole vibe of the office is just, you know, like as an artist, like you're just kind of like out, not like you stand out.

And this this was like for like a Taiwanese company called Foxconn and they make all our iPhones and shit. And so like, it's like, oh, my people, but like really, like I can't relate to any of them because they're just so like straight, I guess

Phaan Howng: we'll say like in a way where I'm just like, what are you lying about?

Phaan Howng: Like, what is this pink tag over here?

Phaan Howng: Yeah, exactly. Like what's art then go

Phaan Howng: like, you know, like shit like that. And then I'm just like, oh, my God, this sucks. And then and then, you know, it was interesting and fun. Like it's taken me places and then and has been helpful and of course becoming an artist because I guess when I think when whatever the Mayan apocalypse is supposed to happen 2012 and I was, you know, like because binge watching Asian aliens at that time and all that stuff. So they kept talking about the Mayan apocalypse and shit. And then like, and I'm like, well, what if the Mayan apocalypse does happen? You know, like, I don't want to be stuck in this fucking cubicle. Like I don't want my ghost to be trapped here forever haunting this and like forever. Like, no, like I couldn't.

I was just like, I got out. And then like really, I guess that was kind of this decision. This like maybe life and death. Like, I know I need to go live my life and not be trapped here and not be like, you know, just be okay with job insecurity and take a risk, you know, and I was like, I don't care how for I'm going to fucking be. I don't care whatever, but it can't I can't I can't die here or I can't live my life going to another cubicle job and thinking somehow that I was going to make artwork on my pay vacations. Like, you know, that never happens. You just go on vacation like somewhere.

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): It's one of the things like 2012. I was, if I'm being fully transparent, I was like a depressed podcast or my first studio apartment. And I just remember I was still I was faking it. I was still doing it. I just lost the job that I had, which was one of those cubicle jobs. And I realized probably four years, three to four years prior to being in that state that, you know, I started podcasting in 2009 and I knew that at 24, I think this is not going to be the long term fit. And I was getting all of these messages through moving up that ladder.

People who are senior leadership. Oh, sometimes you get only four hours to sleep. I was like, I like sleep or you can't do this. You can't do that.

And I was finding a way to perhaps in a Star Trek next generation sort of way, you know, do the board thing. It's like, I need to accept this. This needs to be more of this and sort of less of that. And find a way to make sort of the square Joe job work for the creative thing. Like, what do you do with your five to nine? Yeah, yeah. Nine and five. And, you know, finding ways to ultimately just kind of get back to it. As you were describing with, you know, the 2012 guy can't have my ghost here. And it was sort of that for me and figure it out.

What is the line to, you know, what I value? I'll be 41 in a couple of weeks. And big chunk of this time, the better part of 17 years has been doing this thing. Yeah. But it's always been rooted in something creative.

Something whether storytelling and lying about movies that I didn't watch and telling my friends I can get attention or writing poetry, writing raps or illustrating. But I knew it was something in that vein that was going to fit. And I would make, I would make that part of me, which was a pretty dominant part, smaller to fit into the corporate set. And I was like, so fake.

Phaan Howng: Yeah. Yeah. I don't even know if I can get a job anymore because I wouldn't

Phaan Howng: even know how to like be okay with being there.

Phaan Howng: You know, like we're like, you know, like if I had an interview in the somewhere, I'd be like, I just don't want to care. And I just need you to give me money and health insurance. Oh, no. Like, you know, hopefully I don't have to go get a job soon one day and I hear this podcast and

Phaan Howng: I'm just like, we thought we heard that you wouldn't care about working here.

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): No matter what. Like we were looking up, we were

Phaan Howng: looking up interviews that you were doing a background check and then we heard that you were an artist and so you're automatically out.

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): Like I will truly spell your name with weird A's so they won't find it, which will ruin all of my SEO.

Phaan Howng: No, don't do that.

Phaan Howng: I'm not, you know, it's like, yeah, but, but yeah, so that got me to do it. And then I like, you know, I owned a condo at that time and like an idiot, you know, and it was like underwater and like all that stuff.

It was like, I mean, watch it be like worth millions now. Anyways, but like whatever I couldn't afford, I just couldn't. I was like, I also just like, Florida sucks, you know, like it's not good for art. I mean, like besides like Miami or Basel and maybe it's better now, but that was like 20 years later, like, you know, like, oh, now it's like a cool place to be. But like even then you're like in Miami, which I know a lot of people like love Miami, but I'm just like, I can't.

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): I almost went to school there. Oh, you did? I nearly went to school. I wanted, here's the thing. This is corny and I'm going to let you go back by. I want to slide this in there real quick. Well, come out of high school. I desperately wanted to be the rock. That's awesome. You put me in the rock.

Phaan Howng: You're tall enough to be in the rock.

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): I desperately wanted to go there and I was really interested in robotics and engineering. So it's like, they're a good engineering program. I was trying to sell the idea to be able to get behind it.

Family and friends. And then I got my, I got in the letter back when I applied. It was like, we can't really offer you too much money. I guess I'm not going to Miami then.

Speaker 5: Yeah. Oh my God. I was like, I'm not going to be the rock.

Phaan Howng: It's not too late. I don't think it's too late. I'm close. No. No. It's never doing.

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): But continue dragging my dragon floor.

Phaan Howng: Oh, right. No, I was like, I gotta get the fuck out of Florida. Like, it's just like, it's just not a place. Well, I mean, I'm, I was in like Broward County, so it's like the county above state, which is above Miami. And it's just like, I'm going to say that like, there's no culture. I guess it's just like arts there is kind of sad, you know, sad or whatever. Anyways, and I don't know what it's like now, but so I was just like, I can't grow here and then being, and then, you know, just finally told my boyfriend at the time.

I was like, okay, I guess we can go move to North Carolina back to Asheville, your favorite place, like where he's originally from. And then because they have a quote unquote more like, we'll say arts scene. And then, but then I went and did the summer program at Tyler or like Tyler University, which is for Tyler School of Art, like an intensive summer program. That was kind of more modeled after a grad program in Philadelphia. And then, you know, I was like, okay, well, maybe I don't need to go to grad school. Like, this is fine. And then did whatever I can in Asheville, like, which included, working or waitressing at a Asian fusion restaurant because that was the only job I could get and living with my boyfriend's mom.

And just so I could like afford a studio and all the days like that, I'm not like, I guess, like hiking or whatever, like I just wanted to be in my studio making paintings and stuff like that. Actually, I was like, two, two, two years and like, or no one. And then I was too far. And now I guess no longer exist because of that flood. And then, which is kind of wild. And then now anyways, like, yeah. And then finally, I was like, I can get out of Asheville, like fuck this place.

Phaan Howng: Like, I'm sorry. Like, you know, like maybe I was more of a beer nerd then. But even then, like I was just like, this is the whitest place on earth. And like, I didn't even know like that term.

Phaan Howng: Then, you know, like you didn't just like kind of like like what is this like 2013 or no 12.

Phaan Howng: I don't know. Like one of those days, one of those years, like where you're just like before we had like so many like things to explain, like it's just like the vibe was off. You know, like I was just like, why are they like so liberal if they like all of like the black people are like kind of ghettoized and like, and there's like no agents anywhere really. And even then, we're still being mocked as like we're just like immigrants. And like it kind of feels wrong. And then also, why do some white people have dreads?

Phaan Howng: They're not allowed to have dreads. Like it's like, I'm like, why do you have dreads?

Phaan Howng: Like, you know, I'm just like, what the fuck? You know, like this is not okay. You know, like, I don't know. I was like maybe because there's like an isolated in their little mountain.

Phaan Howng: It wasn't a fit. It wasn't a match. Yeah.

Phaan Howng: But also I just like, I don't know, everyone just kept trying to sell me Asheville like a million years ago. And that's because there's like this great migration from like Florida to Asheville

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): after Hurricane and then everyone was like, oh, like we got all these houses for cheap. And like now we live in the mountains and we can like whatever. And like, like, okay, cool. And then they're like, it's about culture and like arts and like blah, blah, blah. I'm like, all right. And then, um, anyway, so

Phaan Howng: I was like, I gotta get the fuck out. But also like, I do not want to live with my boyfriend's mom. And, you know, so anyways, so I'm ranting too long about this. And then so I made the decision to go to grad school and was like, you know what, I'll take out those student loans, like whatever, don't care, like just see what happens. And then, um, and I felt like owning that would just like really force me to work my ass off is like knowing that I would have to do that. And then, um, actually, so like I applied to schools and then got an interview with Yale and I was like, holy shit, oh my God, I'm gonna be famous. And you know, like I was like ready to die then, like to be like, oh, and then, um, and then got waitlisted everywhere else or like rejected or waitlisted. And then finally got rejected from Yale because that was us.

Like is that it is just, you know, like it wasn't a good fit. And then, um, and then finally got accepted or off the waitlist to Mount Royal School of Art at my cup. And then I was like, all right, well, I guess I'm going there after, you know, went up, checked it out a little bit. And, you know, a friend of mine from BU referred me to the program and everything. And like it was kind of what I was looking for because I wanted to not have to look at paintings again after like my time at BU because we're very, it was a very traditional program. We had like four years, pretty much not really four years, like two solid years of like foundation classes and stuff like that, which I appreciate. Like, you know, now I can paint really well, I guess, I think, and then like draw like, um, and, and like, but I was just like, I need to be exposed to other types of art and, and I don't feel like painting is like the only means to an end, you know, and then so, so that was helpful. And then just, yeah, work my ass off during grad school, but also like I was like in my early 30s, so I was like no longer, I guess we'll say young and dumb, but like past a little bit of dumb and like, you know, like smarter with taking risks.

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): Somewhat aware and youngish.

Phaan Howng: Yeah. Yeah. The energy is still there, but I feel like a little smarter now.

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): I've seen this before.

Phaan Howng: Exactly. So it's just like, and it was fun. It was awesome. And then, yeah. And then from there, just like always love Baltimore. Never thought of going anywhere else. And because I just felt like it was, this is the best city on earth. It's like, really like, I can work part time, have a studio, be amongst other artists, take risks, because it's like pretty relatively economical for me to be here and not have to work a full time job. I guess, you know, I'm lucky that way. And then, so why move to New York when I can just hop on a bus and go or, you know, I don't know, but also just like New York, I just look at it and just make me tired, you know?

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): It's definitely a, and I like the sort of trajectory of moving up, like moving further and further north is like, I'm gonna stop right about here. Yeah.

Phaan Howng: The temp here is perfect. You know, I can have dogs, you know, I had a dog, you know, maple and like, trying to find a place for a New York, that would be impossible. Like, finding like, you know, I like my car. I like my, like all these suburban things that I've grown up with and just like kind of that freedom of mobility to just like get the fuck out, you know, like also important. And because, you know, me and the Apocalypses are just like, or I guess, like maybe even just like, being in Florida with the idea of hurricanes and stuff like that, like, and you're just like surrounded at the wave bottom part of like the penis of like America, you know, and how the fuck do you leave?

And then I also see Manhattan, you know, I do love New York. No, like, whatever, like, shade to New York, but I'm just like, if there was a situation, how the fuck do you get off that island? This is, this is, there's only few ways in and out. Really, the only way you can leave is if you have

Phaan Howng: a boat, I think a fast ass boat or a helicopter.

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): Isn't that the plot of like, the day after tomorrow or whatever?

Phaan Howng: Like the Dark Knight Rises was like, yeah, it's just like, like you're stranded.

Phaan Howng: I'm just like, how is that like, just bonkers to me. Like, I mean, these are things I think about. I don't know, I have problems, you know, like, anyways. So yeah, so that's how I'm here now as an artist.

Phaan Howng: Crazy long come.

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): No, no, no, no. It's one of the things where you're able to peek into who the person is and connect in a very small subset. It's sort of an invitation, the way I look at these interviews, it's an invitation to who the person is that's making the work that is making the impression and we're definitely going to be talking more about work.

But I'm going to move into the sort of next question. So I've read that you consider yourself a canvas painter who ended up with a very multidisciplinary practice, signing, painting on a stretch, canvas has its limitations with accessibility to different audiences. What made you kind of break away from the 2D canvas and what did experimenting like look like that kind of perhaps reshape that process for you or your creative process?

Phaan Howng: Well, I guess like a lot of it was in like my friend of mine who also went to BU. We talked about how we have canvas trauma. Like, you know, like where we just like, I've been trained to like make like perfect canvases from scratch. We wouldn't go mill, like loom the canvas, but like, you know, like mine as well.

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): Exactly, like mine as well. And then, and so after you spent all this time sculpting this perfect canvas, and then you're just like, fuck, like, I don't want to fuck this up, you know, like shit like that.

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): This is actually the art.

Phaan Howng: Like, what am I doing? Exactly. I was like, this is too nice. Like, I'm like better like, you know, anyways, and then just put also like other things. And it just kind of, and then I went before I went to grad school, like I found myself like working a lot on paper and just like being more comfortable with that. And that that allowed me to be more free with like, I like I hate to like experimenting, like in terms of painting, but just like I was able to paint more without kind of like some weird level of expectation, you know, and like, but also I kind of liked it. And this is like again, 2012 to when did I go back on canvas, like later later, started, yeah, painting on paper and just going bigger and bigger and and just like kind of defying wanting to defy canvas and like this kind of like, fuck you, but sort of like also it's just convenient for me, but also like at that time, like environmentally to me was better than, you know, cutting down trees and extractors and all this stuff. And then and not have to worry about spending that time to make canvases, because I hate that the pre-stretched ones from stores, they just they always suck. And then so it's just like me being particular and a big baby and and I don't know. And then so, but then experimenting, like I think I did more, so that was like quote unquote, experimenting, we'll say, and then and then getting bigger and with paper, which is now not no longer sustainable, because now there's like, you see, they're just shoved in a corner and just like not anyway, because originally I was

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): like, oh, I could just like cut it down and like, you know, make another painting like so easy, you know, no, no, I can't do that.

Phaan Howng: So where was I?

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): Oh, yeah.

Phaan Howng: And then but like, no, like it was good, like I started trying to do video, I tried, you know, experimenting with video, you know, learn that like I don't have the bandwidth or the like my ADHD does not handle video well to sit in front of the computer and make edits like for like days, I don't know how people do that. Like, I'm like, no, thank you. And then even though in my mind, I would like that. Now, our outsource that when I have money, if I ever want to go back to video for whatever specific reason, and then, you know, sculpture obviously was like a good way to kind of like try other things.

And it's like, okay, how would I make a sculpture that goes with like a painting or like whatever, what would that look like? And then it was like good to like do all this under or during grad school, because like, you were able to have like that feedback, like, and like learn from your mistakes, and have someone tell you not like if you made a mistake, but just like, okay, how do you counteract the mistake, or maybe how can you improve on this mistake? Or like that, I want to fix it. But like, you know, it's just like kind of nice to just like be able to make mistakes while someone's holding your hand.

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): Yeah, it's, I think at times it's iterative, I suppose, where you can, because I do find like it is funny to experiment. I think when we're experimenting, the way that it's used is like incremental small, I think when you're experimenting, you're making these swings, you have to make wild swings.

But it's like, I'm going to try this. Okay, I messed this up. Who do I have around? Why did I screw this up?

How did I screw this up? And I think it's kind of being in a space that you're able to perhaps explore. Yeah, sort of the directions and the styles, the mediums, the techniques that you may have some interest in and figuring out within this, how or what am I doing within this?

So I think I remember I did an interview years ago with, I believe it was Espy Frazier. And, you know, I think she was describing her work as like drawings, but she was using perhaps like fabric to draw it. I was like, Oh, that's unique.

Usually you think of there was a pen or writing instrument evolved. It was like, I'm using this. Or I remember doing this interview, this dude named Michael Booker. And he's like, I think he said at one point, it's like he's a quilt maker. And the style of drawing that he does is done like the threads of a quilt.

So it's just like, you're taking sort of this idea of making or craft or what have you and applying it to art and in a certain way that it's this and this, they almost over top of each other. And I think that just comes through having this opportunity to experiment and to play and to get those reps in a space where perhaps you don't feel cycled. Because sometimes it's like, I screwed that up. And you don't have someone around you to say, okay, screw it up again.

Phaan Howng: Yeah, screw it again. Or like, maybe there's something here, you know, like at least like, and then also it's just like, like, yeah, like it's just time.

Phaan Howng: Like, you know, like in grad school, you know, I don't know if grad students do this now, realize for any student like that in art school, realize like, it's like, this is your opportunity to just do a bunch of shit. Like you are you have so much access to toys and random stuff that, you know, why not?

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): But I think one of the things that I think are a group that's maybe towards that that in where that comes in, whereas folks that are perhaps, let's say, just entering grad school or towards that back end, or maybe let's say early to mid 20s, or in a spot where it's like, it's got a hit. Yeah, yeah, can't really explore with it. And you don't have like, I ended up having an opportunity to do a college class, just randomly and digital storytelling. And it's rare that I get sort of feedback on what I do. And I know that people have their feelings around feedback and discourse and criticism. But getting that is important, I think, to just like, am I completely off base? Yeah, it's like, even when I send the questions to folks, I was like, are these stupid?

Or do these not work? And I think doing that, there's a risk and there's a sort of fear that goes into, I don't know how this is going to turn out. And it can be exhilarating. Yeah. But also, like, nobody was working on this with me. So I don't know if this is good.

I don't like, you know, take a look at these real quick, are these questions good? And I did a thing that was slightly outside of what I normally do. I don't do video, I do do audio. And the class I'm in in this digital storytelling, the project was to do a video. I was like, let's reinterpret what video is. So I really leaned into what I do, I do audio and I had stills that work as a video almost quick carousel. And then I did it in a way, but I was like, I'm kind of finessing the video portion, makes the audio portion at least interesting. And I was running that by people who were in the same sort of project, and they're like, that's really good, that's a unique idea. But then also getting the feedback once it was out there, it gave me so much confidence and something that I had some nerves about. And the video was about imposter syndrome. So it's just like a really, if I find it, I'll send it to you, maybe have a look at it or listen. But it's something about that.

Phaan Howng: No, it's real. It's real. And I guess being young and dumb, or not having been young and dumb, and then also having these life experiences of your shitty job and the cubicle and all that stuff, like it really just made going to grad school like a party.

Even though you have no intention of job security or whatever, it was just more like, oh my God, I'm having so much fun because I'm no longer stuck in a cubicle or in Asheville, North Carolina.

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): It's a capacity thing too. I run into this all the time. It's sort of like, you like what you do, whatever it is. And you do a lot of it, and you do just working a lot and a lot of your time. And you're like, this is fun for me. And a lot of times I'll have people, why do you do so much? I like it.

Enjoy it. But when it gets to those points where it can't be for a full year or whatever the period is, just no breaks, all gas, it's crazy. And I think about it, I was like, going back to having that young and dumb period, I was in my late 30s and doing some of the volume I was doing, 300 episode seasons.

And when I go into those sort of later years where it's like, I know I'm going to run out of fuel eventually or run out of some sort of interest in this time, I'll get it back, but maybe having a break that's planned then, maybe being able to get out there and do something different. But I have the capacity of that experience and doing that much work and doing, well, I interviewed this person. So this person may be a little intimidating, but I can go back to there and I've done this, I'm going to do great and it's going to be great. And it's something about building out the capacity, but when you see something that this sucked, or as you were touching on this sort of cubicle scenario, I don't want to do that. I can always do that. I could be an employee, but do I want to be an employee?

Phaan Howng: Yeah, why do I need to be an employee? Or even like, I mean, I guess it's like the same thing as being an entrepreneur. Like, why do you want, you just have the freedom to work for yourself, you know, like you in a way, and then you don't have the towing pole, you don't have like dumb bureaucratic shit, you don't

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): have- It's like I like my time, you know, I like my freedom and sort of the, and I know that there's an entrepreneurial spirit with artists who are happy, but I think that's class different. I know it's a selling of it. What is it?

The death of the artist book, where they try to do that. Yeah, yeah, they're the same thing. They're all so inextricably connected in some way, sure. Yeah. But they're not the same thing.

Phaan Howng: Like, you still have to have another job sometimes to support her.

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): It's like, where are you going to get this from? Like, well, slow month this month.

Phaan Howng: Yeah, fuck. Like, I know that's going, there's been times where I'm just like, shit, shit, shit, shit, shit, shit.

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): I imagine it feels like you were talking about the grant writing process. I'm doing a bit of that myself, and I have a day job and all of that, like how do you keep all of the stuff going? It's just like, off of, it's gonna sound, this won't be a very old person word, gumption. I'm going off of gumption and sort of, you know, just kind of feeling like I'm young and dumb.

It's like, you're dumb enough to do all of this, make it happen. But it is the thing where I think when we're trying to equally spoke those things, the entrepreneurial side, and sort of the creative artist side, those are two separate things and you try desperately to marry them to the same thing. Yeah. Overlap. But it's like, a lot of times we have managers.

Phaan Howng: Yeah. Like, switching brains, I call it having to switch brains. Like, there's moments where like, you know, with inviting light stuff, it's just like, I couldn't do any art. Like, I just had to just become project manager, which I know I'm good at, like all this stuff. And like, because like, to go from, like, it's interesting. And it's like always been a thing, like, when I go between like, you know, different projects and stuff like that, like where I have to like, if I have to write a contract, or if I have to review a contract, if I have to put whatever, like, I need to find a way to get my brain to stop thinking about painting or something like that, and then be able to switch over. Like, I don't know, like, you know, like, you just kind of see those wheels, like, in movies, or like, you know, like doing something and restructuring itself, just so you can like, like lock in on whatever you have to do. And like, and I felt like, I don't know, and then as we enter our 40s, like, or, you know, I've already entered, I feel like enough, 40s, where like, I, and you were talking about how like 30s, like, we were able to just like, do so much shit. Like, I remember also the feeling the same, like, we were like, I could like, going hard, like having like unlimited amounts of energy.

Phaan Howng: Where's the caffeine? Let's go. Yeah, exactly.

Phaan Howng: And just like, oh, yeah, I can like, you know, like 24 hours in a day, so I could totally do all this

Phaan Howng: shit, you know, like be able to like, you know, any last minute, like, opportunities that fall in your lap, like, you're just like, all right, I'm going to fucking go for it.

I don't care. Like, it might look like shit, or I don't know, I'm just going to trust my gut, and then I'm just going to get it out there. And then you just go and like, and then the, I guess the, the downtime is, you know, like, you don't have to have that much downtime or anything like that. But now I'm like, Oh my God, I feel so weathered.

Phaan Howng: I used to call it rotting the wave. Right. Oh, right. I used to call it that. And I would go off of that and really, you know, really go on, like you're touching on like really hard and being able to do it. And I think my fear and what I try to avoid is making something that feels disposable. Yeah, yeah. Because it's just like, it's already a digital thing. Yeah. And it's just like, well, I don't want to just like put out a bunch of stuff. And then it's just like, Oh, I missed that one. I missed that one. I go, what's happening? But being able to do something, put that time, care and attention to it being a bit more refined.

Phaan Howng: And I find that I'm to make a book, have all the transcripts just printed out and like the idea

Phaan Howng: volumes and then, you know, just like so that way, or on like, don't have to have to have a tablet or whatever, you know, like chiseled into marble. So it really is just there to test, like the test time, you know, like,

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): let's send this episode to Sebastian Marterano's like, Yo, let's just, just chiseled it.

Phaan Howng: Oh my God. You did a great job. Actually, like, you know, I was probably expensive, but you know, it would look great. Like he would be really well done.

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): I would be such a snob as, Oh, yes, the baller that is.

Phaan Howng: It is so cool. Like, or just, or just commission him to do a bus of you. Like, you know, like, yeah, like so that way, if anyone discovers it after like, in like centuries, like, you know, like the fall of Rome or whatever, or fall of, you know, what we're going through is like, and like some archaeologists can like, uncover it and like, and be like, Oh my God, what was this?

Phaan Howng: And then you'll have that cool beeping theme card that you gave me. And then like, and then it'll just magically pick it up and then go to the website.

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): Because he's so talented, right? He'll get my like, unfortunate, like, like, thinning hair and there it'll be like, yeah, stop there for his hair. It's like, Oh my God, this bus isn't amazing. I'm made out of marble.

Phaan Howng: Yeah, it's awesome. So like, anyway, so that could be an idea.

Phaan Howng: But yeah, it's real. It's real. And, and I feel like, yeah, like getting older and then not being, I guess, feeling like, yes, like, when you need to go and have that adrenaline to really get some shit done, you know, for, I guess, glory will say. I want to say it's harder. It's just more like the recovery period requires way, way more time. And it's, yeah.

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): Well, this is sort of a follow up to it, in to that question, because I, again, I've been playing with this idea of doing something that's digital, and perhaps shifting that to something that's more tangible, having a more tangible component to it. You hear this phrase that people talk about, I'm touching grass.

But I understand what they think they mean or what they mean or what have you. And, you know, your work has a lot of green going on as I'm in here. So there's a natural element you mentioned hiking earlier, a little bit, sort of this notion of getting back to nature.

I know for folks, it's a reset for some folks. I make it a point to go to Patterson Park every morning. I walk through there. I'm like, oh, there we go.

Phaan Howng: It's park. Like I'm just getting like, yeah.

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): And it's something about it. I know some people talk about going to a space that has water in it and get like a sort of reset. So how does spending time with plants or spending time in nature at gardens, greenhouses, or wild spaces, like add to shape or just give you like juice? When you had those periods of like, oh, low energy, right?

Phaan Howng: Well, most of the time, if I really have low energy, I will just sit in my bed and play on the phone for like hours. While the dogs are there just like hanging out, like, and then, but I guess like, to, so like, so there'll be that rest period where it's like a hard week, week and a half, maybe two weeks, sometimes it involves like leaving and going to Maine or like some kind of vacation.

Like, but still like to like really get your brain to like, chill, I guess. And then, and like usually after projects, I call it like the post, like part of our show, you know, like, we kind of go through that a little bit like you just given birth, even though I've never physically have given birth before. So I don't really know what that's like.

But like, to me, this is like giving birth. And then, but to recharge, like, yeah, like, or mostly like, it wasn't really recharged like kind of like, how do you say it? Like, to get back into like, I really enjoy like my favorite, the favorite parts of my artwork is the research phase.

That's what gets me excited to like, go back and paint and like, you know, and just like, you know, like, go and, and just make work and want about what I've learned and wanting to find ways to connect that, what I've learned with like the artwork and stuff like that. In phases. So, like, sometimes, I mean, like ever since COVID, after COVID, when all of a sudden everyone now goes camping and shit, like now everyone's a camper. And then now all like my camp spot is always filled and there's people everywhere.

And I don't want there to be people. And but also schedule getting it more insane. And it's been harder to get out. And then so now I've just been, you know, like, really doing more literary research. Or now I have like my little grow house that does not grow weed, but like, you know, like, of like plants and just like kind of entering a different phase of work. Since everything's kind of like, chaptered out, like we're all have themes where, you know, I'm focused on just like the Victorian era and plants, where like, I'm focused on just like steak plants, or I'm focused on whatever. And now I'm in my like, plant collecting era, I guess we'll say, and then like, and really kind of looking into like different aspects of why we collect certain plants over other plants, you know, like all these weird questions I have around plants.

And, and so when I'm out there doing that and like learning and like, you know, and working and like pulling weeds or some shit like that, it just like brings me joy. Like I just don't know what it is. And it's not like, like, I guess we'll see touching grass. And sometimes it involves smoking grass, we'll say like, but like, really, like, it's just, I just go into this like zone and I'm just like, la, la, la, and then all of a sudden it's like, five hours later.

And I'm like, Oh, shit, I got to the dogs. Like, you know, like, and just really enjoying that. And just, but really, like a lot of it is just, yeah, like having discovery, research discoveries and uncovering it like as if it's like some divincy code book, you know, like Stan Brown novel, and then being like, Oh, what chemical project should I make with this? Like, you know, and like trying to figure that out.

And then, and then, yeah. And then but also like, I feel like lately, semi recharging through doing other like more side quest projects, like community projects that aren't just focused specifically around art. Because I feel like now like that I need a break from it, but just like, kind of like to be human, you know, like I felt like there was a period of time where I'm like, you know, I get 30s, like where you're just like, I can do everything.

And then everything starts becoming robotic. And like, and you're just like pumping shit out just to and then you're just like, to a point where you don't know if the quality is good anymore. You know, like you're like, and I can't live with that. Like I don't like that. Like, if when I feel like I'm stuck, if my work can't grow, if like, I can't like, you know, like, have, you know, just, yeah, like just be able to like, not only say like, what's next level is just more like, I can't paint this like one thing over and over again for the rest of my life, I think some people can.

But for me, I'm like, I'll fucking freak out. Like, you know, like, and it has been helpful to have like periods of like ties where it's like all painting. And then all of a sudden I have to switch into sculpture. Most of that kind of becomes a break from painting. And then I'm like, so excited to go back to painting and then like vice versa. But now I'm just like, I don't know, like, again, perimenopause or something.

I don't know. It's just like, like somehow, or just because of the events of like, all the things that were happening in 2025, just really prevented me from being able to make painting, you know, you know, or just really make work, have quality time to make work work.

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): So I'm just going to pause for a second. I have a couple more real

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): questions and then sort of the latter questions you need to take a break. You good. I want to be better at asking folks. So I don't feel like they're just okay.

Phaan Howng: Like, I'm good. I'm good. I'm going easy thing to that asking questions. So I'll go into the next question.

Phaan Howng: I just worry that I'm going off the tangent and then like, and then not, I don't know, like, anyway, okay, cool.

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): So moving to this next question, I want to talk a bit about inviting light. That's where we have sort of a connection there. And so if you will, could you, you know, quickly describe like sort of what that was for you? Because this is sort of a foray into the question. So what did you do for inviting light? What is inviting light in your opinion, all of that good stuff? And then I'll go to my actual question. Okay.

Phaan Howng: So inviting light is this Bloomberg philanthropy project, like where, you know, they like if you're a city, you apply for like this grand idea, let's say, and then they're like, you win or, you know, and then so I guess inviting light for Baltimore won. And then, and what they wanted to do was just like illuminate areas of like the neighborhood, think about like the relationship of light, let's say, for streets, gates, and oh my god, the dogs are sorry. And in the concept behind it, I really enjoyed because it is just kind of like, okay, like how do we, you know, because like, like a bit of like a landscape architecture, nerd, I guess we'll say. And also I feel like that AI lady, like on the on Instagram that complains about like white light, you know, and it's like from the HOA anyway. So like, I'm that person and then like, and just like kind of like, yeah, like how do we find more creative ways that could like help provide like, like illuminating your sidewalks so people feel comfortable and safe, and then also create like this public space that feels like fun, cool, and safe, and all these things, but also gives like a vibe to, you know, Baltimore, which adds more to the vibe. And so for when I was invited to inviting light,

Phaan Howng: sorry, so when I, hey, come on, it's okay.

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): So good. I get it out.

Phaan Howng: Okay, stop. Okay. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. See, I was a little worried about this.

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): What's happening, you guys?

Phaan Howng: They hear a thing and then of course now they're on alert, but in real life, they can't fucking do shit. It's like so dumb. It's all talk, right? All talk.

Okay. So what I did for inviting, oh, so when I was invited to do inviting light by Derek, I was like pretty excited and came up with doing these giant ass snake plants that look like they're coming out of like the Charles Street garage, which is like 17, 14 North Charles, I think in front of the Charles Theater, that like would change colors and like, you know, like was really able to play off this like sci-fi vibe like that I've always wanted. This is kind of like, I was just like, at first I was just like thinking of like, oh, maybe I should do something more community based, you know, like stuff like that. And then like, and then finally I was like, wait, this is like my opportunity to do something fucking frivolous.

And like, so like, you know, like, because like usually like when you're applying for like public art, sculpture stuff, or like, you know, or even grants and stuff, it feels like it has to have some like, like community tie-in and I was like wondering like how the fuck would I like ever in this situation say what I'm gonna do is put this like giant big plan coming out of garage you know like because that's cool like it's strictly just for cool like not for cool but just like entertainment you know and like and so finally I was like fuck it I'm gonna do this I'm gonna do this I don't care like I'm you know what I'm gonna put some big ass fucking stakes coming off the garage playing to like and just you know

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): and it's a wild visual

Phaan Howng: yeah It's a

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): wild visual like you know in talking with folks and Sharon I was like yo want to see a sci-fi movie on 12th Street yeah and it literally is that and it feels to me as big it's immersive it's cinematic it's a little weird which is what I like it reminds me of like movies from yeah and and then the other thing one might say since we're currently in the year of the snakes you have a snake plant one might say since it's been almost a whole year like this was like a conversation that was out there like sort of publicly and then out there visually and sort of it is out there publicly until when

Phaan Howng: I don't know and definitely they say five years yeah which is great if it can last longer awesome you know like I don't know what if I'm dead in five years like you know who's gonna take it down like not me like but also I will probably just pretend I died so I don't have to take it down because I feel like we're gonna put that like I mean but really it's just no it should stay on there like it's hilarious

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): so and that and making something that cool and I definitely want to you know here if there's any like sort of other considerations or thoughts around sort of messaging in there but I like that it was like this is just something cool that should be out there and I think in this notion and having sort of station or be the location and sort of tangentially for all of the inviting light sort of exhibits it's the first artist group it's like a focal point it's an area that in some ways has been blighted due to things outside of the arts and I think having this attention there like yo there's giant like snake plants coming out of this building what is happening I think that that's very interesting it's definitely what I like to call a sort of magnet for attention and having these things there that'll have folks like whether it's by things I mean sort of the other like works other public works that are out there the giant billboard and just different places where folks go cool restaurants and you know two theaters and I just think like having something that brings the tension and has that sort of weird and it's not a it's not this sort of it's gonna lose people it's just like what is this I think that's the thing that's the hook for me

Phaan Howng: yeah yeah no totally and I wanted that you know because I do love station north like I've been there forever I mean I don't physically live there but like my studio was there for forever and you know they always had like you know good opportunities and like it's just like a fun place and um and like yeah it was just no but I mean like I guess thinking about like the work besides it being I guess we'll call it like a frivolous or um how do you say I guess frivolous would be the only way I don't there's probably another word for it like you know just where it still has all the concepts behind but like I have like in my work let's draw the research I've done all like you know just so it's like it may not be out there out front but like to get to a point where let's put some snake plants coming out of this garage just was really like a culmination of everything I felt like I've done like in my art practice to make that decision being like you know what

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): and looking at it and doing some of the research there's a 2021 snake sort of plane that's sort of in a different style so how do they come together is there any sort of overlap is there an homage you mentioned there sort of this is uh so I'm gonna say not quite you didn't use the word combination but it is sort of a thread it's a connection to stuff that you've done previously and it's like this is a wild scale like oh oh snap she's overgrown it's too big

Phaan Howng: now yeah yeah yeah no I mean it's like you know like something I've always wanted to do something giant and like not like dumb but just like at that scale but like but bees like kind of ridiculous in a way and if I did it in a good way and um and I so like the original snakes on a plane series was just me kind of figuring out like you know the origins of house plants but also like why do some people choose specific house plants over others you know like but also you know just like looking at like you know Instagram and everyone's like all these like plant influencers are like this is my you know it's always a goddamn long Sarah or a pop those words like you know something you know just like something you know like you're like okay and then like I was like well like the snake plant is like the unsung hero of like you know and it's just like only known for practical shit like oh pure forest air or like you know hard to kill you know stuff like that it's like if you are a sad person you get a snake plant or something like that

Phaan Howng: like I don't

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): know friends make plans from the prep of saying

Phaan Howng: yeah like and but like I just you know like they're fun to paint you know they're also like kind of weird or not like for me I just I just like them and then um and then so but also like kind of wanting to be like okay how where did the snake plant originally come from you know like what are the origins like instead of just like kind of like really thinking about how like how it came over to the US etc and like and wanting to like break that whole like it's just there for you know your practical reasons and stuff like that and that this thing can take on way more life than you think it can and so I just did a bunch of series of plants and also even like oh the people you can't really see like um about orange one it's just like that one is called like um snake versus month month Sarah versus like kind of like wanted to make it look like predator in a way where it's just like predator like I guess would be the month Sarah and then like the snake plant would be Arnold or something like that okay I like it um and just like as like this like kind of competitive like who's going to be the coolest plant on Instagram kind of you know kind of thing like I don't know like but also it's just like you know like I mean a lot of formal reasons but also yeah like more conceptual reasons and then um and then hilarious leaving like well snakes are on a plane and there's that movie snakes on a plane and so that makes it even more funny and then that humor also helps feel the work to like kind of keep going and like and not more than they get bored with it but just like keep exploring and see what happens and then so when inviting light happened it was like oh what am I going to do blah blah blah and like and like I was like you know what like the only like a very recognizable plant and there's also practical like would be like the snake plant you know and then so it's like kind of like snakes on a plane like the next chapter or something like that and so and just being like all right well now snake plant has gotten off the plane oh to another plane got really huge and like this is happening you know snake plant yeah it's kind of like how do I say like thinking of it as a movie franchise you know what do you think of it like and like I feel like a lot of my work is produced in these like franchise ways like where snakes on a plane is one franchise you know and then take the break and then all of a sudden it comes back and with the new story you

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): know and yeah it reboot but now and then like my previous I guess quote unquote franchise was I'll be back which is you know after Terminator and where plants this is when I was going through my Victorian research and shit like that like um had an awakening which was like the only Victorian novel I remember reading I mean I that I I guess like the most in high school and then um and like I was like well what if the all these houseplants had an awakening and then they like realized that they've been totally objectified you know like like stolen from their native places and like stuck in a pot only to just like suffer in a house from some neglectful person and so they like rally and they like

Phaan Howng: try to kill all humans you know and then so in a way like and hence like I'll be back like hence like the Terminator movie franchise and then so like using that as again like a driver to like connect ways of like how people were thinking about plants in the Victorian era and relating it to the Terminator movie and like all this stuff like was also helpful in getting snakes on a plane where you know like it's like this main character like or the protagonist and even the graphic novel I'll be waiting that if I ever ever fucking finish it you will the main character is Nick Plisken who is a snake plant and he's like the leader and and so in a way it's just like for me it's just like all my my my universe is colliding my franchise universe is colliding together and then now on display on 1714 Lord Charles and it's kind of awesome and yeah

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): I like seeing the connections and I noticed one other connection that has the humor thing that's a thread that's sitting there it has the station north thing that's sitting there and so the last real question that I have for you is curation related uh-huh can we talk about um exceed expectations oh my god yes so it's an ambitious exhibition that challenges everything that you're supposed to think about Asian Pacific Island the Middle Eastern and desi american diaspora so and what the art should look like this could you say a bit more about it sort of what that process was like and what the thinking that was going into it because I think humor was the thing in it some some of the stuff of well this is not what you're supposed to see

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): from this group of folks who I have you and traditionally is this it's like we're trying that on its head yeah talk a bit about that

Phaan Howng: I guess like so when I was asked to share the show by Asian Articulture Center um like I was like oh sweet yeah that'd be cool but traditionally they just do an open call and then like they just take whatever comes from that open call but like I was able to ask and also I also want to preface like because of having to just only be able to work and project manage on snake on a plane like I was able to side quest project manage this you know like I was like I given up on like being able to create art like work on art like or other projects there's just no way and then um and so I asked them I was like well can I like invite some people like you know like can I like I have this vision then like on my mind for like forever you know especially with like the rise of like portraiture being like the most popular fucking thing in the world and like and just feeling I don't know maybe it's like a slight chip on my shoulder too where it's just like and again like just being like identity identity identity it's like I get it okay I get it and I was tired of being spoon fed like what that means and I was tired of like when I was teaching at Micah like seeing students also trying to figure out like you know like whatever their identity with individual wisdom would be to make them special

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): which you're touching on um is is a thing that in some ways it's almost like a shortcut for some people and it's just like that's fine and that should be I would give you this as an example um that I've been been told like so this is a black podcast right that's like I interview a lot of different people it's maybe an arts podcast you could maybe go in that direction or it's a conversations the storytelling podcast but we try to do I think at times a shorthand and I think sometimes there's a little bit too much focus in that area versus whether the work is interesting or the work is good and those identity elements in theory because of the people who are making it it should be based in like yeah I

Phaan Howng: can't make but I find that you know when someone does this and maybe with maybe some of the criticism that's around there or the discourse that's around there it floods into the work that folks are making because at times they're trying to appease perhaps a market or an

Phaan Howng: audience that's totally for the market and I guess like not that I it was a like being a beneficiary of that market or anything it was just more like kind of feeling the frustration of like being prescribed what identity is and also not wanting to have other people like feel like that prescription is like it's just like kind of again like another form of like I don't want to be like wait so permency or like you know just like kind of like kind of like you know I get it like you know like I support like my people my identity and all that stuff but it's just like we are all different like we all have our like I guess how to like go back like it's like being casted into a film as like a token person you know and like the fact that we've all got ourselves back to being tokenized again after we fought so hard to not be tokenized and but because like Donald and Magda and all those psychos like wanted to like get into like this identity thing where we just start hating each other again like I'm just like okay that's not cool.

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): Yeah, we can have that. Yeah, fuck that. Like you know like and then um and then just seeing how it's playing in the market and how like you know and it's just like I was like that's not how like you know it's just like no but also it's just kind of tired of it like and knowing that like we have

Phaan Howng: awesome awesome fucking Asian artists in Baltimore that I feel like don't get enough play that I felt like needs to play will say you know and then also like that just don't make work about specifically their identity. It could be it comes from that identity. It comes from like all their like their lived experiences etc but it may like doesn't have to be about like your grandma or some shit you know like even though like someone suggested like oh we should do a show about Asian grandmas like but like kind of funny like not like um anyway so like but I wanted to be fun you know just depressing like I wanted it to be a stellar show like I really wanted to like elevate it beyond like you know what but also like really breaks like you know what you would go and look at like something that takes place during like a api month to like and like for an exhibition everyone's immediate thought I feel like even for us Asians are dragons you know like feel like that and like I didn't ask like another artist I was like so like what do you feel like when you were like about an api exhibition like what is the first thing that comes to your mind and she was also like dragons you know and it's like okay so obviously there's a problem right like that's not cool like if everyone's like first thing's like oh I'm excited to go see this a api show oh like I'm gonna have dragons and it's just like so like just really wanting to break this like orientalist view of like Asian art quote unquote you know like and just was really like the motivating factor so I wanted nothing to do with anyone like doing anything like it could be adjacent whatever but it couldn't be like a prescribed obvious thing and it had to be cool and it had to be like not that you know like because like that but just like I just really wanted a lot of mature art and a lot of like or not like I don't like you raised the mature art like I just wanted to just show talent like and just show that we as apamida like diaspora and descendants like we come at art in different ways like we are not just like focused on our traumas or whatever you know we're just focused on like what we enjoy and what gives us passion and if that's like making weird as shit awesome if that's making like you know like what do you call it like fiber like art of like you know things that look like a bunch of intestines awesome like you know like cool like why not and yeah

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): I mean when I I play around because I have a couple age

Phaan Howng: attention but it's one of these things where I remember looking at like shunga art for instance looks like this is out of pocket and it's like forever it's like super old I was like this is always been out of pocket and I'm like the style is there but the subject matter is ridiculous like this is not me this is inappropriate but it you can tell in the styles of wood blocks or development to it all of that stuff and it's like oh okay yeah that makes sense and I don't see a dragon or anything in here I just see sort of the techniques that I know because I've seen works similar to this it's like oh that's what polka-ties where it look like and that's similar here and there and so on and having something that because I've seen um maybe it's documentary and in one of my buddies we were there um at watching the screen of this documentary about like black art right and it's like these are the new voices in black art and each one had like some sort of trauma thread that's in their work and he's in there as a black artist as a painter he got a uh an email that frankly said you work stop black enough

Phaan Howng: oh god

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): I'm seeing exactly this message that there's a trauma component or and even some of it's like reaching for trauma it's like I was arrested this one person I was arrested oh because of unpaid parking tickets I was like I'm gonna throw my phone at the screen

Phaan Howng: right like shit like that it's like everyone's like what you work

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): that was literally my thing I was like did you work is yours it was um one person who's who's worked within the thing she had a personality I didn't really care for she was saying but it's like you're young so I get it um this is like I'm just trying to get the bag mm-hmm I was like cool and I was like I can guarantee she didn't say it initially I was like she's patient because I recognize sort of the style and she's like yeah you know my grandmother's patient I was like but it wasn't I'm leading with this it was like this is secondary and as we talk about the way you can see sort of the element in there let's actually have a conversation versus the work speaks for itself and it's like well I don't like what to talk about because it's talking about something that I'm like this is a little

Phaan Howng: depressing mm-hmm yeah like why is it depressing it's like so like so like what it's always like it's like it can't be depressing and then also like not to say it like there's like it's that we can't have that type of work like that it's totally fine it's just more like when everyone is like doing it just because it's the trend is just like that's when it becomes a problem you know and like or because of capitalism like that's when it's like not okay and like and I just didn't feel like it's fair for I guess like a lot of like young artists of color to just like come out get paid like a shit ton of money and then all of a sudden these apples are just gonna take the rug from underneath them and then what do they have

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): you know they have nothing and now you're the person that well you're known for making these yeah you're just this person and you're stuck there was one artist I would send you a link to her episode I learned about her in Chicago I believe the name is her name is uh Katie Chung and I believe that her mom or family had like a dry cleaning place and some of the art that she did had some had like maybe like irons and hangers involved and I think she did this traditional like dress or garment that was made out of old receipts that she'd been collecting cool and I was like that's actually how like oh here's the lived experience it's like I made this so I doubled on it of sort of the you know sort of her the Asian American like just for her perspective experience here having this business and bringing elements of that in it but then also doing this traditional garb that's from back home and it's just like this this actually works and it's not like well you know the trauma of these people and right right it's just like what is this it's like is this a conversation that we're

Phaan Howng: having right I worry about like the long-term part you know like where you know like again like like for me like I can't if I'm doing the same thing over and over again I'm gonna freak the fuck out like you know like even though I am technically doing the same thing but like I go through my different franchise opportunities you know and my my franchises and not to say like everyone should like also start their own franchises but I guess like I just feel felt like oh like and then again this is nothing to do with exceed the sensations just kind of just like maybe some artful shit like where um you know like how do you like where how do you grow from that you know and like like I remember we were talking earlier about like someone being like oh I'm this person now like how do you change you know like and then kind of like how do you know how to change and if you've been just like doing this kind of like didactic thing all the time and no one is there to give you that feedback or like when you could really experiment like I don't know that seems like not great to me

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): one of the things when it comes to like the repetition and then I'm gonna move into the rapid fire question so we can get towards the back end one of the things that I tend to do because it's going into season 11 of the podcast and on a road to a thousand and it's like I don't want to just do the same interview I don't want to do the same style of interview I don't want to do the same sort of curation in it I try to keep it interesting you know for myself because ultimately I'm doing it for myself and it's like if I found this interesting sure and there are very few interviews that I'm like I don't know if it fits or this works because I go through that process and I try to shape the conversation in a way that it fits like this it feels like we're just just having a conversation versus it's just a you know Q &A and I think a lot of folks don't see that nuance but I try to keep it interesting even if it's a little trollish at times whether it be in the sort of ordering you know sort of the post-guration if you will but when I'm thinking about who I want to reach out to it's like who don't want to talk to again especially with going back and bringing guests who've been on before you know like and there are other instances where it's just like I think early on I think who am I interested in like what type of work am I interested in and how can I get access to talk to this person to learn more about their work and now it's like I've gotten enough I guess experience in doing it what would be a question that that person that I'm interested in talking to would find also interesting to talk about versus tell me about your work

Phaan Howng: I know I can't stand oh it's like sorry no it's real it's so real because then you're like oh well because you could just go read about it

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): on the internet like you know and this is the thing that's really interesting about it because I want to make sure I'm in right so when I find when I talk to the guests they're like thank you for that conversation yeah but when the folks that are providing the feedback oh man uh he didn't talk to them about their art enough I was like well they seem to have had a good conversation yeah you can't get one two three gyms from the perspective of the subject of the guest in that conversation did you miss it that's that's sort of on you maybe you need to go back to it and sort of adding this other piece to it the it's sort of immediate right where we don't sit with things anymore it's like it's got to hit immediately we need to bend you we need to yeah I mean I'm gonna eat it all immediately versus sitting there and being with it when I go to let's say a gallery go to an opening I make two or three passes I did and I make that first cursory one then I make that sort of second one and then I'm going back to see like what do I want to see more of what am I still curious about and I don't need to be in there forever because my focus is on that work

Phaan Howng: it's not on my brain like dies after I'm like

Phaan Howng: after like looking at too much I'm like I

Phaan Howng: can't like I need to go and like touch them grass

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): but but but but weird if I wanted to just get rid I remember back in the day it would be Malus and his album for three months like hell yeah yeah yeah now it's like all right it's up it's like it just came out three hours ago like yeah and I think that that plays a role into sort of creative output whether it be sort of traditional fine on whether they need a what have you and it's sort of like a lot of criticism but not a lot of appreciation and I think folks are trying to make things to serve it because that criticism could impact you make it a certain amount of money you sell and work

Phaan Howng: they all want to be influencers or they got to like kind of I feel like that's like kind of the thing like I'm not on TikTok so I really can't speak on this but just like kind of where you want to go viral I guess and then like and then wanting to do that immediately as like a form of security I guess you know like so you don't have to get a real job I don't know like you know like that you don't know what that is like I don't know like you know like and and versus like wanting to like really have thoughtful exploration and more deeper conversations within yourself or within the work that you are passionate about and what drives those interests and if you can't do that like how do you even sustain your art practice like you know like you can paint like okay cool I did this color like this color palette oh I made the canvas look like this this time and you're like ooh you know but it's still like if it feels shallow people are going to know like you know they can look at it for five seconds and then they move on just like kind of like some rando image on I guess Instagram or social media let's say but like if you got like I guess like some more hidden meanings even though it may not be completely obvious in front of you um you know I feel like there's always something that like a good painting for me or a good piece of artwork like it's just like something that makes you really want to sit in front of it for like hours to figure out how the fuck did they do it like not just like the cat like all those things but also like you know it's like so I guess we'll say like mysterious let's say where you can spin 20 different narratives you can do all this stuff and you're just kind of like that's awesome you know and like I guess that's what I love like that's but that requires time that requires like a lot of practice that requires like you know just like sports you know you just gotta like get it but like even though like let's say golf for instance like you need to change your swing because you're not it's not working anymore you know like you've got to like pivot and relearn and then like a different swing to get to like the next level

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): you know you got to do the ugly unsexy stuff yeah exactly the non-output stuff yeah to get to that like it's the it's it's it's it's a lot from from Drake I guess it's like you weren't the one we shoot in the gym it's literally that so when we do whatever it is that we're doing we're making it they're not sitting here with you when you're like painting something like I don't know if that's like a lot you use and just sitting there pondering and thinking through like is that the color is that how I want to have that there yeah let me go back let me have a think on this for them

Phaan Howng: oh my god like these paintings like all like 20 if you like could do the x-ray thing you would see like there's 20 000 different changes that I've done color everything like luckily they don't like it couldn't be like an inch thick you know where you can like see what's in between it or whatever but like really it's just like always like such thoughtful like this isn't working this is working and then like sometimes fucking things up on purpose just to kind of get things to work you know and then or it's like a lot of r &d like it's just like you know just literally throwing shit at a wall like

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): I think that's where I think that's in the real question it was throwing shit at a wall so when I moved to the rapid fire did I have like a phase like advice question I've added more of an observation that they didn't have a time to say it earlier but I thought it was funny okay I think you'll appreciate it based on your sense of humor um but here's the sort of rapid fire portion I'm just looking for one word answer one word phrases short phrases things of that nature okay you'll be fine so here's the first one would you like to have coffee or tea or your coffee or tea person

Phaan Howng: coffee all right yeah coffee

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): now if you were doing one of those typical things well you know in the aging community we love to have tea it's like all right back to that

Phaan Howng: oh oh my god no coffee coffee I'm an American like I born in America grew up in very white places like I can't like you know like I don't know like I feel bad I feel like like you know like I'm being like what do you call it like a disgrace to my my family you know but like my mom likes coffee too like get it you know yeah exactly

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): here's here's the next one um that is uh I don't know a window seat because you're not super tall

Phaan Howng: it depends okay really aisle because I do like stretching my legs out and I know that feels selfish as someone who's like five one but also I like to feel a lot so like in a way and I feel more freedom like I don't like being stuck by the window but then if I'm exhausted and I just want to sleep then I'll take the window seat

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): I kind of defaulted the aisle seat well you have no choice yeah uh I I just yeah I have to pass out in there and it's like luckily if I became like a pill guy I'm like I'm gonna finally sleep yeah yeah I can't do it on planes or something like I'm debating going to LA soon oh wow for some interviews I was like

Phaan Howng: it's not that bad of a flight if you go direct it's not that bad

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): yeah and it's fine I've gotten so used to taking the train everywhere

Phaan Howng: so yeah that is so nice yeah yeah going west coast is like yeah I better make it worth it yeah oh my god well even though I'm five one and stuff like I really love like you know in southwest when you can get that one seat next to the exit yeah or like the emergency and you're like yes I will risk my life to let everyone out of this plane if we have like some kind of crazy emergency landing but like oh my god even though my legs can't even touch the next seat it was like so I felt like I was in luxury and like it was so frivolous and like stupid because there's probably like so many more people who could really benefit

Phaan Howng: from that like something like me yeah

Phaan Howng: exactly but you know I won that lottery like I got my A boarding first like

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): I only and this is maybe says a lot about me I only travel to Los Angeles along the California specifically for sweaty Asian men why I each time I've gone it's been for Japanese pro wrestling

Phaan Howng: oh wow

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): wild so the Japan pro wrestler I've gone three times it's been pretty

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): and this is for one of these shirts I had so I was like yeah so why are you going to LA it's like Washington sweaty Asian men probably each other why not there my god um the Japanese homies um to see uh okay now this one is the one that this is a cred one okay

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): so hopefully you have some cred here I'm scared no this is you get this one wrong I don't

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): say okay but like

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): you're gonna get right image you're gonna get it right because you have to get it right okay so pick it up a movie all right what's the movie set in Philadelphia where plants strike back

Phaan Howng: oh is this that one with um marky mark in it

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): it is yes the happening

Phaan Howng: yes I never remember the I remember watching it but it is um it's an M night Shyamalan movie yeah so you got it that would have been really embarrassing I mean I haven't been watching movies lately so

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): I mean you have the movie reference you made a predator reference earlier you know this is like I found that away for later I was like I have a friend of a review that I will send to you but yes we were talking about meat on meat it was a lot like somebody do you just buffing elbows and buffing biceps okay here's the bit that I wanted to share earlier you talked about sort of you know once you're kind of done with all you had that sort of uh that break I want to call it post art clarity uh I think that should be

Phaan Howng: with post art clarity okay I like that not post part let's post show part of but like really like no but then it goes into post art clarity yeah okay

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): okay think that's yeah I'm a philosopher yeah yeah I make fake philosophy so here's here's sort of the last thing and this is the sage advice okay um so I think for listeners uh creating and shaping their own narratives I want to give you sort of that space um so I think failure is important right can you share like one failure that became like a teaching moment or one simple practice that you can like use like maybe for young artists I'm with a good advice but one simple practice one could use to get over though that fear of failure so

Phaan Howng: again for me I make a lot of you know like how do you say like moquettes or little like just r &d like you just try shit it doesn't have to be perfect and you just know it should look like poop yeah and it's totally fine and like it's not going to go the way it's just like the fact that you tried it and then you can improve on it that's great but I guess the most the biggest failure I guess we'll say quote unquote would be like my graduate show thesis it wasn't really like a failure you know like it was more like and I guess like maybe I saw it as I don't know how to describe it like I remember like getting my final review Chris and then then being like this sucks like not like that like they didn't really say it like that it was just kind of like I mean I was like all like look at this which is like blah blah blah and like you know like wow and then um and but like one of the um what do you call it visiting artists were like it's like okay like or like not like in those words just like yeah just like where it wasn't like maybe like the um the feedback not the feedback like the enthusiasm that I wanted I just expected like whoa fun you made this fucking immersive installation like that's fucking nuts like you know like wasn't like that and it was just like hey maybe more like you could do better this is where it's not working all that stuff it was like literally a critique and you're just like fuck like I just spent like this is my thesis this is like you know everyone's looking at it but a was very helpful to hear that it wasn't let's say perfect right because like then I was able to go back and like we don't like but just like okay where could I improve like you know what like what are the lessons learned from this experience you know and it's just like okay like trying to take over room last minute a week before the show open not a great idea you know and then or like all these like logistical things and like like control and like all this stuff that like now I when I enter any kind of like you know like let's say installation and or like public culture thing like I will go through all those like parameters and logistics and like all that stuff just so that way I'm like set up not like wouldn't say for failure but just kind of like um just so I guess for more control and then but like still like after every project I'll still go back and look and be like okay where where could I improve looking at the game for yeah pretty much and yeah so like and a lot of like I think like architects that they have the money or landscape architects actually do that if they have they have like a team of people like that will go and like learn from the mistakes of like some building that they did or something like that you know and so for me it's like kind of the same way where I'm just like okay so I had this experience blah blah blah like I mean obviously like yes it could have been perfect in all these ways but like there were still where's all these like other things that like I had to overcome like you know and then how do I make sure that I don't have to be stressed as fuck for the next time or like or how do I make sure that like you know like money is coming through like at the right time we're like you know just like kind of like over time it's not like a failure failure it's just like how do I improve to like streamline again like you know like your golf thing or batting practice like like okay

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): it's a tweak in refinement sort of sort of process and I think in that because I run into it all the time where you know I'm gonna do this I know how to do this right but when it's sort of in front of people or it's like or but I feel like because it's so infrequent that I do those that I have all of this is like no can you take a look at my stomach real quick like in my phone apart but I think if I once I get through that initial one then I could do it every day but because it's so infrequent I kind of have to re keep me visited it so maybe it's having if not sort of the game takes the thing we're describing or maybe gather some notes journal that shit you know like what's happening here so when you run back into it again or the opportunity presents itself you're a bit more equipped to have a bit more capacity exactly for it versus having all of these other things that have nothing to do with the actual work being put up being done and all of that because it's energy and as we've learned it's 40 something yeah

Phaan Howng: gotta really protect that energy really low now like I'm not like yeah no but no you're right protecting the energy is so real and then and then like I guess like going back and learning from like things that you know just like I wouldn't say like mistakes or failures like could have been but just like like okay well I'll make sure like you know note taken don't do that next time or like make sure to talk about this before like this or all that stuff and um and I feel like that is is important you know like I mean our being an artist is like sports like I actually see a like well when I could afford it like um a sports psychologist because it is a lot like sports psychology like you know like you're in a very competitive field even though you're not like physically active and running but like you know like because I did think about just like how did like you know like Olympians like you know they're just like pushing their bodies like or at least any sport professional sports player like pushing their bodies their minds etc to the point where they're you can't do it anymore

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): you know I use this term I am at a point where just you know I can make it really goofy and simple I just talk to people right but there is a performance component as a presentation opponent that is a sort of hosting

Phaan Howng: component yeah it is a performance it's so it's a performance and I remember I had this interview and I could not say the person's name and I'm not that I couldn't pronounce the person's name I could I couldn't say it and I was like won't you truth in the song I'm your host Rob Lee and that's how I usually do my intro I kept saying their name I'm your opposed in the yes name I couldn't say it in a proper order oh I would introduce them as me and my guest today is Rob Lee and I was like I did it three times in a row

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): and I was practicing before they got there and I was like I'm not I'm just going to go into the conversation versus doing the intro I'm not going to get it right at home but I'm not going to get it right here yeah and it's a term they use in baseball called the yes it's um I think Chuck Knoblock used to play for the Yankees back in the day he's a second baseman he couldn't throw the ball a second they had to change his position to the outfield because he just couldn't make a thing that he's done routinely for years that's so wild and it's it's so your small psychology thing sort of hits um so with that we got that all that all that cooked all right done uh so I'm gonna give you um sort of last few minutes and there's a few moments in this this uh conversation to one I just two things I want to do I want to thank you come on thanks for having me having your space this is great yeah and secondly I want to give you the space an opportunity to um share with the folks where they can find you your website social media anything you want to share any final moments how folks can stay up to date with what you have going on the floor is yours

Phaan Howng: oh my god oh my god pressure um well I'm on pawn.com my website phaan.com um although I do need to update it more often just like one of those days where I'm just like oh my god like you know it's just like chores you know and and also I'm just like digitally and illiterate so that's probably not helpful and my you know anyways and then um and I'm adverse to looking at screens and so there's that and then there's instagram which is pawnlove and even that I am not very good at you know updating but mostly it's just like now there's like all that pressure you know like to whatever content and shit and then like what you like I don't know I just like can't handle it like yeah like my brain hurts and then also like my ADHD it just like really captures it so well that like I lose hours of my time and I can't get those hours back you know so it's just like well I'm better off just like going dark and not letting anyone know what's going on in my studio which I'm okay with because I'd rather be working

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): because we turn into what is it if you're what is it if you're not paying for the product you are the product and I think the creative class is in that spot where show you're behind the scenes show all the stuff that you're doing

Phaan Howng: I can't handle that yeah I like I do appreciate but I'm like not that person I'm not going to go take my time to set up a tripod and be like look guys look at

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): me I'm like filming myself three to four to five times a week of that it's just like are you working

Phaan Howng: yeah what actually working it's a lot of work

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): because you're now it's like this notion of picking up another job like I was touching on earlier with the entrepreneurship thing it's just like yeah this is another job like I'm now editing video to make sure this looks decent because it's now reflective of my brand exactly so much work I don't want I just kind of want to just do the podcast yeah and or do the painting or whatever the things that's directly related to it and one can argue that all those things related but I think it's a think it's a trick

Phaan Howng: yeah it's just hard and also like now that we're in our 40s like I'm starting to feel like like an old lady where like the screen is so small and like and to like use your phone to type in like you know like what the fuck you're going to say and like all that shit is like such a little process now where I'm like oh go do it and like and then but then it's like all these steps you know I'm just like I can't

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): the minute they change something like what is this I don't even take photos anymore of events like there's like so many like cool things I was at and I took nothing like no photos it was just like plants you know and that's it like I took photos of plants so go to your website

Phaan Howng: yeah like I should just do like here's my uh what is it called like that that one tick thing that people used to upload all their photos to like back in the day like um

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): now we're we just both paused right there in the middle of it we just both timed out

Phaan Howng: you know what I'm talking about like it anyways um anyways like you know like but then I don't know it's just so dumb and like I know that oh yeah and then you just like yeah magically put your photo on and move on yeah no like hashtag no oh my gosh blah blah blah proper dimensions yeah thinking of something clever or like you know like it's just dumb

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): it's the lighting right yeah is my profile written do I have all of my uh short links in there within my bio

Phaan Howng: yeah and also I don't want AI to like do anything stop telling me if I want to use your AI like stop it like you know

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): that's the thing that's in the background um when you go when I go through some of my messages and some people are very wordy with me it'll just ask like the AI in Instagram it'll ask do you want me to just compress this and give you the gist of what they're saying oh god yeah so that's what we're at

Phaan Howng: it's like so it's just like why am I spending all this time like why for like you know the computers to take over the world like this is my way of battling that you know don't they learn don't they watch these movies like but yeah so there's our like the most two main ways and then and or finding me out in public somewhere and then like you know just being a stalker I guess like really because I don't know like I had a point where like I just can't internet

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): anymore it's 100% legit um I rally against being an internet person um I joke about all the time I'm a d minus list celebrity or have you and it's like if I can go down further on that rung it's like I'm a z-list celebrity

Phaan Howng: yeah I wouldn't go there like but still get paid to for our work that'd be great but like yeah so but no like you know but use Instagram or my website to find my email and then use that to contact me because like DMs like I'm just like what is this and then like also like I have those notifications turned off so I can focus on my work and see a human

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): I move myself to it's sort of like a criteria so petty and then we'll close out there it's so petty what I do sometimes like I don't like your messaging style I'm gonna move you to from from primary to general and then general goes to ah that's gonna ignore damn it's it's it's some it's so many weird messages that float in yeah yeah and I'm like to your point it's like you can hit me an email yeah you can you can email me and the reason I know that that works because there's so many people who are on tours and stuff they love to come on your pod I was like I don't care about your book

Phaan Howng: yeah you're gonna give me money or not that's what I care about this is a workaround I'm always like how much is it how much am I getting paid

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): how much money you got the people that I reach out to they're goodly enough to come on and all that stuff but I really want to talk to them some of the folks that reach out like I don't know there's an alignment here

Phaan Howng: what exactly

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): like it's about World War II not interested most

Phaan Howng: also like what's your publicist like obviously you

Phaan Howng: shouldn't be going on just any like that just seems like a lot of time wasted you know like

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): we've heard so much about your mistake I'm sure you have

Phaan Howng: we're thinking about preserving our energy or like our uh yeah like as that's that's so much work and then just even being like yeah be a daftly to see that just very just like how dare you not even like realize this was a good fit because now you wasted three minutes to look at that just

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): I do say no

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): mid mid now like

Phaan Howng: exactly but also like you know in the words of Willie Nelson if you got the money I got the time

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): that's good

Rob Lee (Truth In this Art): and they have it folks for fun home I'm Rob Lee saying that there's art culture and community in and around your neck the woods you just have to look for it