Rob Lee: Welcome to The Truth In Its Art, your source for conversations, joining arts, culture, and community. These are stories that matter, and I am your host, Rob Lee. Today I am excited to be speaking with my next guest, a social sculptor, educator, speaker, and a writer who draws from the arts and humanities to design spaces for honest conversations across political, social, and cultural differences.
Certainly something that we can all learn a bit from. We'll explore her work and her approach to fostering meaningful conversations. Please welcome to the program, Philippa Pham Hughes. Welcome to the podcast.
Philippa Pham Hughes: Thank you. Happy to be here.
Rob Lee: Thank you for coming on. This is one of those things where I was joking a little bit. It's a little bit of a long time coming. I got a different beard.
I have less hair, less weight, since we initially chatted. I'm really looking forward to this. To start off, first of all, I must say, having you on and following your work, I'm really, really excited. Almost like a little bit in awe. How did I get this interview?
Oh, stop it. For starters, could you introduce yourself in your own words? One of the things in this podcast is really letting folks share who they are authentically. We get these really breathy artist statements and all of these really, it's like, no, who are you? Basically, please.
Philippa Pham Hughes: I like that. But you know what? The thing that's top of mind right now is because I am feeling like in the tide of recent events, normally I wouldn't be like, this is what I'm, I don't know, these are my titles, but I kind of have to start there today. Because last fall, I started a residency at the Kennedy Center in their social impact program. I was one of two social practice artist residents.
It was a three-year residency. It was so exciting because it just felt like the acknowledgement of so many years of work and being recognized for it. And then also like getting to so much support from staff and doing cool things at the Kennedy Center.
Like, oh my God. And then as you probably know, or if your audience doesn't know, but last week, the entire social impact staff was fired. And then this week, literally today, and I knew this was coming, but I got the call that our residency was being cut as well. And, you know, I was like, I just feel so depressed. Like I've known it's coming, but you know, to kind of finally get the final word on it, it's just frustrating because it's not like we were making, it wasn't that much of a, it wasn't like about the money because the money really was not that much, frankly.
But you know, it was about being given this opportunity to create, create something for society, to like really dream about how our society can be better and more connected, how we can create communities together where everyone flourishes in the communities. And that's being taken away. And I just am really shell shocked by, you know, this isn't just about, wha wha, poor me as a little artist and poor, poor all the artists.
It's really worrying me about what this says about our society and the direction that we're going into when we take away the very things that are aimed at bringing us more, making us more connected, at least attempting to. So I've just been feeling pretty down today, frankly.
Rob Lee: Well, one, you know, as one says, it's like, as I'll say, I'm sorry, that that's what happened and that's where you're, how you're feeling. And also, I, I relate to it as I was sharing a bit earlier, as far as my thing, you know, and sort of doing this and, you know, I will say, sort of the precursor to, I guess, that that sort of changed there, the Kennedy Center Arts Funding and a lot of stuff is happening in various sectors that we all touch.
I just remember back in November, right, 2024, I was thinking through what did I want to say about what I'm going to do next with this podcast and the podcast started as a response to the now regime, the return to that regime. And I was like, we need to share stories. We need to share our own stories. We need to be able to connect and maybe we can change the perception of Baltimore initially, you know, sort of how people perceive it as just being dangerous and all of these different things.
And because, you know, that president said that Baltimore is just a city filled with rats. And I was just like, I refuse, you know, and, you know, seeing sort of that shift and those opportunities and all of that stuff and that we're kind of back to that. And it's just deflating the shell-shocking feeling that, okay, I thought this mattered. I thought this was cool. I thought this was smart. And it's being labeled as DEI or whatever du jour. And as you remember, back in November, I was on the fence of thinking like, what do I want to do next with this pod?
And I was thinking if Kamala won, I would probably sunset the pod. I still enjoy it. I still think it's important. But I was like, I feel like my work is done.
And that is a response to try to at least foster these conversations. And I almost did a coin flip before I went to sleep that night. I was like, if we're a good country, this will happen.
If we're not, this will happen. It didn't work out. I was like, I don't know if we're a good country. And not as the people in it, but sort of what is valued. And I think that these funding conversations and the dialogue around stuff that you do and the ground stuff that I do, it feels like almost like a kick in the leg or kick somewhere else.
Philippa Pham Hughes: Yeah, like what our society funds. Unfortunately, in a capitalist society that is very transactional, we show what we value by what we fund. And so that's the deflating part. It's like, oh, you don't value me. And but again, it's not about me. I mean, it's just about something bigger than that.
It's like a little cog in the machine at this point. But kind of tangentially to what you're saying earlier though, it's like, I mean, I do feel a little deflated, you know? But also, I feel energized in the sense that you will not put me down. I mean, now I feel even more like I will show you what I can do.
And you know, I was thinking that was so hard. Like, you know, I started out, I did not start off like in the art world. I start off my professional life as a lawyer. And so I kind of had to claw my way into the art world in a way. I mean, I always loved art. I love going to art shows and performances and concerts, all the things that I really had to do. I was almost like on the job training to become an art person.
I did a little air quotes for those who can't see it. And it took a long time. And a lot of it was very DIY. You know, I kind of cut my teeth on finding raw retail spaces around DC and just filling them with art and inviting people into those experiences and giving them a really, like, literally awesome experience of what art can be. And just as an aside, you know, I've done since then, I've done, I've read research that says that when you, when people feel a sense of awe, they feel more connected to each other.
They feel more open to talking and like having, you know, sharing, sharing feelings. And so I kind of inadvertently kind of stepped into this world like, oh, right, I want to create a sense of awe for people so that we can feel more connected. And so that's sort of what I was doing subconsciously. And it turns out not the thing.
And so I was like, oh, maybe I just have to go back to where I started basically and create like these, I don't know, these experiences for people, but that are very DIY, very sort of raw and very, you know, I don't know, reaching into something deeply human. Yeah. Yeah.
Rob Lee: No, that's really, that's really good. And it's a conversation I was having earlier around this, because I've talked to folks recently in this season about third spaces, third places will have you and just getting folks together. And I very much believe in some of these things that are quote unquote, not the economic driver, not the, you know, if something comes from it, money is made from it, fine.
But that is not a priority. I'm thinking like what was the idea pitched earlier and it was literally, I remember back in the day, going to a friend's house and a group of friends would be there, we're going to watch the fight or we're going to watch a comedy special and it's just sort of like you thought that was funny. I thought that was funny too. And, oh, wow, man, that's a crazy punch that just happened or whatever the thing is. And that's all it is. And that you can't replicate that you can't make that, but it needs to be all these other things now because folks are struggling specifically in this sort of like art spot. And, well, it has to make financial sense.
It has to be an activation. And I try to counter that, you know, so much because we're losing, I think, a level of purity like I'll go to events, but I'm very selective where where I go now, because it needs to fit. It needs to fit a certain vibe, but it can't be as, as I say, as a term I use, it can't be artificial vibes.
Philippa Pham Hughes: Yeah, I totally agree. And, you know, it is there is, it is kind of interesting because I was doing all these kind of raw events and, you know, and raw spaces. It definitely felt very authentic when you're like standing at a warehouse.
Whatever. But, you know, and that kind of translated into or evolved, you know, more air quotes into, you know, organizing those kinds of museum after hours kinds of events. And I was like, you know, it was very hard to like bring that sort of that feeling of authenticity into a very structured kind of colder environment, so to speak. I mean, it was fun to try to do it in museums and now museums do it all the time.
Not that I invented that, but I have to say, like, I do feel like I was like one of the early people of doing that sort of thing. But, you know, I don't know, I went to one recently and I was like, oh my God, like this just feels so basic. Like, we can do better people. We can do better.
Rob Lee: Yeah, it's, it's, you're, you're so right. And, you know, I think it's, it's a thing that's over complicated sometimes. It's like this event, you know, as we're recording this, it's the beginning of April and I was, I went to Mardi Gras for the first time last month and I was just like, man, you know, these, all of these cool events. And I was like, people are just oriented on having fun.
I was like, I don't care if it rains. I don't care if it's like all of these different things that make for maybe a sort of annoying thing, you know, like outside of just enjoying the event. But being there and just seeing like people are sharing an experience and.
Philippa Pham Hughes: But may I just interrupt because earlier you said, you know, people over complicated, like I'm not going to even name the museum. I went to. But I was like, it didn't even feel like they put any effort. They're like, you can't, you know what I mean? Like you can't just hire a DJ, some random DJ, but keep all the lights like full high, you know, high and then put some crafts on a table. And call it a party. You know what I mean? Like a little effort into it.
Rob Lee: Some structure, some structure there, something like a vision, you
Philippa Pham Hughes: know, vision and you can't just like give it a name and expect people to like just imagine the vision. Like you got to give them the vision.
Rob Lee: Before I move to this question, I think it kind of does a reset here. There's an idea I've been trying to get over for a while because I like puns, right?
And I like music from like the 90s. And I was like, look, I want to do a Halloween party called New Jack-O-Lantern Swing. And I was like, oh my gosh, and maybe it'll happen.
Maybe it won't. But I think like, you know, it's just like just make these things happen. And I think people who will get that, you know, from that bit and from that sort of pun there will understand like, oh, it's going to be New Jack swing music. Oh, it's a Halloween theme. It's all of these different things. And now it's sort of this promise to deliver on it and everything else.
Philippa Pham Hughes: Well, yeah, but then you got to deliver. Like then you got to like bring that, you know, people like that's a really cute name. But if they get there and it's just like some lame DJ or whatever them. I don't know. You know what I mean, though.
Rob Lee: I know exactly what you don't want it to fall flat. And I think, you know, again, it's the vision thing. And yeah, so going back a little bit, you know, I want to go into this question about the curiosity around people bringing people together, connecting folks. So can you take us back to like, you know, when you just realized that that was of interest just having folks together and sharing those maybe odd moments or those those moments where people are in maybe a same space, maybe sharing. And I think that's a really interesting idea. And ultimately, how did that, you know, lead to where you're at now, what you're doing now?
Philippa Pham Hughes: The thing is, I just did things that I liked myself, you know, so I did not have like a plan. I just started doing things that I like. And it turns out other people like them too, you know, and so I, you know, I just spoke to a class recently of younger folk and kind of tell them like, you do not need a five year plan. You know, like, I feel like when you're, especially like these were all undergrads, college undergrad, and I feel like that's one of the instructions people like elders will give them. Like, what's your five year plan? What's your 10 year plan?
I don't know. I don't want to totally say that's a terrible idea, but I also think that that can be limiting. And also you don't even know what you're going to, who you're going to be in five years. So I've just tried to always make, you know, the best decisions for myself at each moment. And what do I like to do? And not what do other people like to do?
Anyway, so that's basically what I did, you know, I mean, you know, when I was a lawyer, I did that because it was somebody else's expectation on me, not my own expectation. So, you know, I was like, I really like art. And I really like being around artists. So, you know, while I was still practicing law, I started inviting just people, artists over to my house for dinner. So I was like having, you know, basically like little salons and just, I just wanted to talk to artists and hang out with them.
And those little salons, you know, led to fighting this raw space on 14th Street and doing this big event. And I was like, oh my God, that was fun. And then doing it again and again and having people notice and having museums notice and asking me to help them organize. I did a bunch of big projects with DC Office of Planning and these creative place making projects, you know, so like it just, people just kept noticing and kept saying yes to things.
I am maybe to my detriment sometimes, I do say yes to a lot of things, but it's led to so many great things. So, you know, lots of things like that happened, but the trajectory, the current trajectory kind of began with 2016, with the election of 2016, when I was like very upset about the result. And my initial reaction though was to invite people over to my house for dinner. So you see this continuing theme, like I'm just always inviting people over for dinner because I just want to talk. And food is such a, you know, that we have a saying called, you know, breaking bread for a reason, it works. So I invited some people who voted opposite from me to my house for dinner. And I didn't have a plan, I just was curious and I kept doing that over and over. And eventually after a couple years of doing that over and over, it led to a big dinner.
I did it in a couple of museums here in DC, the Phillips Collection and a small one called Hyric House. And then that led to funding for this national project called Looking for America. I traveled all over the country, like literally to Alaska and El Paso, Texas, and organized these conversations. And then that led to the University of Michigan Museum of Art, where I've been working since 2021 into the midterm elections, where again, just organizing conversations, trying to find ways to bring people together in, to have, you know, not just empathetic conversations, but conversations that make us more human to each other and make us feel more compassion for one another. And art is such, you know, art is not the end all, it's just a way to kind of get people into the conversations.
Rob Lee: And it's really, it's really good work. I mean, the idea, the concept of bringing people together and sort of getting those, those sort of details of, I do what I like, you know, and folks who get it, get it. And I, you know, I'm listening, but almost I feel like I'm in the listening to a podcast because despite being in it, because I relate to it in so many ways in that, you know, when I'm doing this, I'm asked, like, how do you curate? How do you select your guests? I was like, I don't know.
People that interest me, you know, my radar or, you know, you should curate this, you should do this in this way. And the notion of the five year plan, right? This podcast is in year five. And I didn't plan to do 830 plus episodes.
I didn't have a plan. And as a planner, it's just a thing that feels authentic and just going to the next thing. I'm a data analyst. That's what I do day to day. So being able to do this and have conversations and I nicked it, I nicked it, take my own stuff and think like, man, am I talking too much? Am I connecting or, but the goal is a conversation. It's not just a, I ask you stuff and you give me the details I want, you know. Yeah.
Philippa Pham Hughes: I mean, I would actually taught a class at Michigan University of Michigan as part of my residency there. And it was called, We Should Talk Column, How to Use Art and Culture as a Tool to Repair Our Social Fabric. But one of the sections of class is talking about, like, what makes a good conversation. And oftentimes people immediately go to good listening.
And that is absolutely true. You've got to be a good listener. But you also have to be a good sharing of yourself. You know, you have to, you have to, it takes two to have a conversation. And so, you know, so it is interesting how we focus a lot on the listening part, which is very important. But we don't talk enough in terms of what a good conversation means. We don't, we don't focus enough on like sharing deeply and authentically. You know, we keep going back to that word too. That makes, that's what makes a good conversation.
Rob Lee: I agree. And, you know, I had one, I had several, but I have one that comes to mind where, you know, having a deep conversation, I had a conversation with an artist and actor, Tonya Everett. And we were talking through, like, we're both inquiries, we had that going.
And, you know, and we're talking through just, you know, coming up on 40, like just turn 40 in January and sort of these, these different things. And she does a, a Ted talk about processing grief. You know, she's had like a lot of loss in her family in a short period of time. And as we're talking, she has an emotional response to just kind of thinking through the weight of some of the things she's experienced and in her real life. And I'm like, she's tearing up a little bit. I'm like, oh, no, this has gotten too real for me. Let me process my emotions.
And, and I was just like, I could cut the mics here. And I'm just thinking what's the next right thing to do. Sounds like let's continue the conversation.
Let's be normal. And I try to relate because some of the same things that she's mentioning, I'm experiencing as well. And then this is where it got really interesting to me after we did the pod. And I thought it felt really good. It was a long like two hour podcast.
And I think I trimmed it down, but it's about two hours in recording. And I was teaching a class this past summer. And one of my students referenced the interview. And it's just like, wow, you got real deep in that one, Rob.
I was like, are you listening? And, you know, they connected and were able to share their own sort of, so it's like that conversation, which was done months before, led to another deep and authentic conversation that I wasn't expecting to have in a classroom setting.
Philippa Pham Hughes: Yeah, it's interesting because these the students that I was teaching, it was a combination of undergrad and graduate students. And I do, I feel like I'm, this is very anecdotal, but like the older students were more likely to share deeply.
And I can't quite figure out why, except I feel like maybe it's because they've been kind of, you know, like they've been through the ringer more, like they've been hurt more, you know, like, and kind of come to the other side. I mean, anyway, so it was really interesting to kind of the way people process differently at different ages in your life, the kinds of experiences you have helped you process that kind of indicates how you're going to process. I think a lot about like the actual processing and I am and I'm an out loud, I'm doing it right now.
I'm a very much out loud processor. So, like, I've got to like talk it through. So I sound like a maniac sometimes and then like, Oh, don't worry, I will get to a point at some, you know, I will make a point at some point. But yeah, anyway, so I use conversation a lot as a way for me to like figure stuff out, essentially. So I don't necessarily know what I'm going to say. I just say stuff.
Rob Lee: I like it. I think, you know, as we're going through this conversation, I'm able to have like to call it free jazz a little bit. So in it as simple as it may be, let's say, a project that you're working on that may come to mind, what does that process look like for you? I understand it's going to be like an out loud sort of process.
But what does that look like to you? Do you have in mind like a beginning or a concept or theme and sort of an end? And I think that's always sort of rooted in like having a conversation of sorts.
Philippa Pham Hughes: Yeah, I mean, it really ties back to the conversation angle, because because I'm such an outward processor, you know, I'll come up with an idea, but then I'll like go and ask like a bunch of different people, then I will assemble a group and then like, let's talk about this. And you know, it's funny when you came up with that pun for your party, the Jack-O-Lantern party, like I was thinking, I've actually organized two different groups to name things because I'm like, I can't do it myself.
So I would, you know, got together people like you are really good at puns and actually name these really big events and I'm like, these events really need a good name and I'm not able to think of it. Anyway, so, you know, I just work, I have to be in conversation with people in order to like make things happen. And then the more I talk to people like they're coming with ideas, I'm coming with ideas like I just start getting really excited.
So my process is very, very much about being in dialogue with other earths. And ultimately, you know, I'm also, I mean, I'm not a data analyst. In fact, spreadsheets make me extremely anxious, but I am like kind of an organizer. So I feel like I do have the different sides of my brain working, you know, like there's this sort of creative process where I've got to like talk everything through and it's all messy. But then at some point I'm like, all right, I'm in tactical mode. We're getting this done and here are the steps, you know, my brain will easily shift up. So once I feel like, okay, I know what we're going to do, I shift over to tactics.
Rob Lee: Is there a, in doing that, is there a process that you have in mind or tool that you use? And I ask this because I just recently got an order of these notepads I really like, ugly books. And I always have a pen and one of those notepads with me, not even a sponsor plug. It's just literally, I got to write down the stuff and then I find as I'm, you know, I'll have the notepad in my hand and I feel like I've gotten through several pages and I'm like, all right, now you need to put this into an actual spreadsheet. You need to have this written down somewhere. Let's polish this and so on. Okay.
Philippa Pham Hughes: Let me show you all of my notebooks. Okay. Here's the one that I just scribble things in. Yeah. This is the previous scribble things in. This is the one where I write all my notes for, you know, talk like when I'm, I write a lot of essays, so I got to write, I write notes. Here's my journal. My journal is very cute. There are Moleskine journals. Moleskine is my, like all of my actual journals that I keep neatly in a row are Moleskine. It's so funny. I'm more, I'm in a way, I'm almost more about the, too much about the process sometimes because it's a way for me to procrastinate.
Rob Lee: I hear the fan all the time that the process is for us and in the results for everyone else.
Philippa Pham Hughes: Right. That's good. Yeah.
Rob Lee: So going back to, I want to ask this because it's been on my mind a lot and I've talked about it, you know, to several folks because I'm having a conversation with as many people as I can. I revisited this interview recently. It was a January interview with Fresh Air with Tonya Mosley and it's titled This Anti-Social American Life where guests in Atlantic writer, Derek Thompson shares insights, you know, on sort of me time and has a profound impact on our relationships and to an extent our politics. And the conversation gave me context on this feeling that, you know, we're disconnected and, you know, more and more today, especially talking with you now.
I think this is definitely an at wheelhouse, if you will. So what are your thoughts on which driving sort of these disconnections and how can we improve our connections from your vantage point and the work that you do?
Philippa Pham Hughes: Yeah. I mean, I think that, you know, again, when I first started kind of my transition into the art world and I was doing these big DIY events and even just small ones, the salons and things, I just felt like I was hitting, I mean, and that was like a while ago, you know, early odds, you know, whatever. It was like this hunger for just being around people.
So I don't know. I mean, I've read that book that the Surgeon, the former Surgeon General wrote about loneliness and I've thought a lot about, you know, this idea of disconnection, loneliness. I mean, there, you know, there's this supposed pandemic of loneliness.
And I think it's true, but I don't know that it's a pandemic. I mean, like, I think we've been experiencing this in modern society for a really long time. And I think that's why the things that I was doing just again, naturally, maybe because I was feeling lonely and I was, I want to be around people. It just got really popular fast because I think people wanted this.
They were hungry to be around each other in a different way. Now, it's interesting though, because like, I love social media, you know, in the sense that not just because I'm addicted, which I am, but also because I mean, I like, I do find it a wonderful way to connect with people. And I find out about stuff that I would not normally find out about, especially like events and things like that. Like it is awesome.
It just has to be used for good and not evil. And I think, I don't know, like, I can't quite figure out what to do about that because I also find myself addicted and spending too much time on it. And I have, I get a lot of value out of it too. So I don't know the amount of value I'm getting out of it is counterbalancing enough, you know, the addictive part of it. But I know that, like, I have to be so conscious of putting my phone down.
I know others people do, but I do it. And so I'm wondering, you know, I guess I'm just resistant to like blaming everything on social media. Like, I don't think that's, I don't think that's enough of an answer for, you know, why we feel disconnected from each other.
Rob Lee: Yeah, I think you're right there and you know in the the interview on there and on fresh air and he talks about sort of the two big Derek Thompson talks about the two big technological events over the last 60 years like TV and and cars. Like people are thinking you're gonna mention AI or you're gonna miss the social media it's like literally those are extensions of it and I started to think about it where you know cars I know here I talk with my family all the time I'm very much a city guy I got to be in the city that's where the action is happening I'm going to museums and so on and their inclination is you ever got to be in the county essentially away from people so like there that's sort of baked in you make enough money to move out into a place where no one is at sort of the TV thing and we're very cognizant of our messaging like it's an assumption that everyone has the internet not everyone does but a lot of people have TVs and TVs have been around for a long time so the messaging in there is kind of some people's entry points to other cultures whether it be a tourism or a travel show whether it be a sitcom or what have you this is how we sort of connect and we can be I think what is it being you know alone or what have you and being separate in that way is a little bit different from isolation I think we're conflating the two I think we're isolated more than you know separate
Philippa Pham Hughes: yeah I think that's right because I was thinking about like back in the olden days you know people live far apart from each other and they had to like make an effort to they go to church every week that was in church was like a social occasion there were community centers that you would gather at you know and so I don't know like and then like I don't you're right like TV made everybody like sit inside instead of like playing outside or the car like you drive into your garage and so they're you know these these technological advances have already started have always been around there's always been something that has kept us apart and then we naturally want to be together so we find the ways to be together so okay I have no evidence for this it just this is just anecdotal but I just just anecdotally I just know that we're all trying to find ways to be together and then that's why a lot of social media like a lot of Facebook is popular because like you know like they have those Facebook groups so that anybody can find some you know niche little interesting that you know you said you're going to awesome con that there's even more nichey things within awesome con that people would only find each other on through social media and they would find each other like you live in Alaska and this guy lives in Virginia but you can actually find each other you don't have to bump into each other in person and so that's what I mean by like there is value in it it just it could just can be turned toward evil you know as much as it can be turned toward good
Rob Lee: absolutely you use it as a tool like when when I sort of like AI for the bed it's just like no it's how you use it it's not going to make everything easy for you you just need to know how to use it like maybe as an assistant maybe as a copywriter but it shouldn't be doing your job for you because then the you of it your voice is gone you're writing those prompts those very clever things that that social media personality sure it can take in maybe a strong sample of your your writing and your identity but the you of it is missing and yeah I think I think the other thing that that pops up in that area is because we have to make it sort of a priority to to try to connect so this past week you know I was like you know that was touching on before we got started I was a little like I'm not gonna go I'm not going to do anything it's easier to stay in and you know I remember on Friday I had a couple friends just reach out it's like hey man go to this I'm release party do you want to come and I was gonna be like I'm gonna put that on do not disturb airplane mode I didn't get it bro and I just chose differently I was like let me go out let's connect maybe something cool will happen from it maybe something won't but at least I'm doing something towards that that goal of connecting and being around folks because I think it's just very crucial and very important and it turned out to be a good night
Philippa Pham Hughes: yeah I know there's there's so many times I'm like I'd rather stay in with my cat and then I don't and then I'm like oh my god I'm so glad I went out and then everyone's like oh god I wish I just stayed home with my cat you know like that rarely happens but you know maybe maybe you know that's just that could be just our extrovert personalities I don't know you know
Rob Lee: and there's there's one other thing I'm gonna touch on before I move into this next question because it was on the tip of my tongue I was trying to kind of grab it you know and you know I go back to the social media point and I you know follow different influencers unfortunately but I follow influencers and they're trying to take me off site more often than not whether it is hey join my community so it's again sort of this notion if I'm trying to add a commercial capitalistic component to here's this go here to this other place to be a part of a community I don't know if that's how that works but I think it's leveraging something that be all desire
Philippa Pham Hughes: I know I feel really torn about that too because I'm like then you know the I don't blame anybody for needing and wanting to make money I need to make money you know I want to make money but the monetization of community and connection that's like that's a real hard one for me to get my head around because I feel like I do have this skill of like bringing people together but I don't I feel out sorry I can't just scratch but like you know I don't I worry about the monetization of that because you know again we keep going back to this idea of authenticity and I don't know how to be authentic and monetizing at the same time
Rob Lee: I run into the sort of same thing again it's like a version of talking to myself here's I'm trying not like I said but it's the thing where you know what I'm looking for these opportunities and I'm trying to take what I'm doing sort of to a way where folks are together whether it be hey I'm gonna host a movie night because I've done a lot of movie you know like dialogue and discourse or hey I want to do like a live podcast or some sort of event where folks are together in a space with the intent to enjoy connect whatever it is again goes back to what I was saying earlier so what's the expected ROI I was like this is gonna be a free event because I've been good for the community and it's something that's very needed right now hell I'll pay you to put it on I find myself doing that more often than not but we're also competing what this notion of getting that attention you know having sort of folks be able to just pull up they maybe put their phone down maybe they take some video or some some candidates there but to be able to engage in something I think that's a sort of uphill battle that there's so many things good looking for that I would call it attention economy
Philippa Pham Hughes: attention economy can I bring up one more thing because I also I was thinking about something about a minute of five minutes ago that I wanted to also mention to you there's this really interesting book from many years ago called the Warhol economy it just you just reminded me have you heard of this book no I'm typing it in now it's like maybe it's from the 90s even but essentially you know it kind of it focuses on like like basically 1970s New York like Chelsea so hope when all these artists were living around there like when that was truly the art center of the world and all the artists were like bumping into each other they'd all there was like a bar where they'd always bump into each other or just walking on the street and that's why you know this is this person's explanation for why that part of the world was so creative like so much creativity was coming out of there because going back to this idea of like having they're just having these conversations but they were they were authentic ones they weren't organized and that was and I find that to like you know I've lived on in this neighborhood in DC for over 20 years now or coming up on Twitter I guess anyway for a long time two days at least and like I can't walk out of the house without bumping anybody somebody I know and that's PC you know that's a city that everybody thinks is so transient I'm like I really have to wear sunglasses and a hat sometimes because if I want to like to do my grocery shopping but that's also what I love about it you know I have to tell you how many times I've just bumped into somebody you know like hey what are you working on and next thing I know I'm like oh kick that thanks for like that you know that idea that recommendation so just thinking about you can't monetize that yeah it just happens
Rob Lee: yeah I put on a fake mustache when I'm out because yeah I'm really tall right so I'm easy to say yeah that's true to this art I was like my name is Rob but cool appreciate it and like I'm six four so it's hard to really like hide it so it's like that feel the bald head I'm like I have this fake mustache on that comes with glasses it's all together not these glasses different glasses and I try to find a way to just be in a cut but I just remember this this one time my partner she'd mentioned to me I was just feeling down about just some grant thing you know that just didn't really work out and she was just like you had a dude stop almost you know crash his car because he saw you walking and I was like that did happen she was like people here love you don't get it caught up you know don't get it confused you're connecting you're making some changes people are risking their insurance to shout out you so you know just kind of enjoy that and being in the community is really cool
Philippa Pham Hughes: yeah it really makes a difference I don't know I could never I at this point I can never leave because like it takes a long time and a lot of hard work to like build a community and you cannot take that for granted
Rob Lee: so I got I got sort of two more real questions because as we've gone through this and having this conversation you know having the guest cook if you will you know I've knocked out several of these questions I'm like oh this is all this is all this is awesome this is great thank you for a better conversationalist than I might be so one of the items that really caught my attention is very intriguing on your website has the headline of repairing the social pet fabric one conversation at a time and I find folks are you know less inclined and we were touching on that a bit what are maybe some of those those tips or those like maybe suggestions on someone who for someone who might be a little inclined or shy or disinclined or shy to actually spark up a conversation like hey man that's a really cool shirt you have on you know I don't know like I run into it myself sometimes like I said I'm really tall and it's like alright who's this why is not for ROTU behind us like what are we doing you know so how would you suggest someone maybe chat up or spark a conversation to maybe pets lead to a connection or dialogue
Philippa Pham Hughes: yeah yeah you know one thing that's kind of helped me under you know start conversations more is because you know there is science there is research that says that like people are much more willing to talk than to strangers than we believe and because we're because we're all human social beings who want to connect with each other I mean not everybody wants to talk to you I know that but you know most people do so I don't know that helps me like get over that that the first initial shyness of knowing science says people want to talk to each other even to strangers but you know the way to really connect you know I mean I do think like just a simple compliment on your shoes here you know whatever but the way you know this like the way to really connect is to ask people to tell a story and then you know I mean it can feel so kind of artificial at times but like if you really want to get right to it that's the way to do it you know and so I I mean I don't I don't have like any stock questions but you know I try to like assess the environment and you know stuff out this person like is there any indication of some story that they that you think they can tell you and you know there's always at least one story that you can think you know that they can tell you but if you're a person really wants like a list of questions I do have this friend Ken Woodward he might be a good guy for you to I would love to see you two talking to each other his so he started first of all he started a website called curated questions and he basically he's one of these very exhaustive researchers so he basically just amassed every question he could find that was good like he curated it and these are good questions like and categorized in different ways they're really good I really recommend it but you did a couple other things that I think are so interesting he did one of this project and I can't remember the exact numbers on it but basically he wanted to meet and have a conversation with somebody new every single day for like you know a hundred days but I think it was more than a hundred days I think it was like a thousand year or a year I don't know whatever like really and there's another guy who did that he's he's he's still working on 10,000 conversations you could you should look him up to that I mean there's just like I think there's just there's like the sort of energy around like just having conversations but then the other thing Ken did you got to talk to this guy anyway he just loves conversations and he's he's so interesting because he is like this middle-aged white guy former military grew up in a fundamentalist Christian church very conservative who basically for lack of a better word has become the most woke person I know and I'm like how did that happen so I just find him so fascinating and so I don't know I was thinking about like if I hadn't been open to having a conversation with a guy who on the surface I was like I don't know it's not the kind of person I normally you know want to hang out with I kind of met him when he was beginning to sort of transformation into you know to this other way of looking at the world but I think a lot of people did you know I know a lot of people in my circles dismissed him because he was this kind of person and I'm just really glad I stuck with him and kept having conversations with him I feel like I had some role in helping him find kind of his true self yeah anyway yeah that's just a yeah an example of how like just you've got to like dig and like be open to people and be curious about them
Rob Lee: yeah and I like the the part there which I find that's been really effective for me is like it's a story get your folks to tell a story and I was just thinking of it like you know when I'm doing this kind of the prep before we actually turned on the mics I was just like yeah just just talking it's like we already on the podcast no we're not we're just talking and you know I find that I'm not a good networker because I get a business business degree right not a good networker but I remember before I moved to my last question I remember I attended a cartoon crossroads Columbus where I was speaking I'm moderating a panel back in September and I was just like did I even belong here did I get the wrong person and I'm going through and doing my research and prepping for the the folks in this panel that I'm going to interview and there is one dude named Ben Passmore who's really talented like artist and you know I talked with him I was just like I don't know if I like that guy I don't know why and it was just they always have sort of that read that early read and we sit down and I'm doing my intro and I'm super nervous right for this conversation it's a big room and people I don't really know in an environment I haven't really been in and I flubbed his intro and he catches me and he makes fun of me he's like come on man give me all my credit and I'll let you know dude and someone took a picture and you know by the time we arrived it was really cool but someone took a picture of the full panel and I sent it to my partner and I was like which one of these guys do I not like and she was like the guy that looks just like you and I was like he does look like me similar temperament we in her own style we it was just like sort of it started off we had no whatever and maybe I just didn't notice it and I realized during that weekend I was there for this convention he's kept sparking up conversation with me just asking me random things and now I go to visit him in Philly and I'm like hey you know you're we're friends now and I wasn't expecting it wasn't looking for it but now thinking about it it's just like oh this is an invitation to to have a conversation that initially I may have been blocked on because I'm focused in a different area and now it's there and it's like I used to spend money to go see my man and he's one of my friends yeah that's very cool thank you so this is sort of the last question and it goes back to mission a little bit you know to you know as I'm reading create a to create a society in which humans flourish all humans flourish and that's a big and and very meaningful mission like and you know as we kind of started off with it's always these little things that get in the way you have to find a way around to stick with the mission stick with the goal whether it be you know just the funding conversation whether it be sort of the sensibilities people have or just social media get in the way you know for for lack of a better term what does progress towards that end look like whether it be really big or whether it be like incrementally what does that look like in your opinion
Philippa Pham Hughes: yeah I mean I kind of came at that you know because of the last nine years of organizing these cross political conversations I started to realize that you know I could not invite people to have a political conversation a debate um debate isn't going to work um because we're we don't even know how to talk to each other anymore and so I started kind of thinking about like what you know what what can we talk about you know and in a way that doesn't pit us against each other and so I I think a lot about the future you know I'm not I don't I don't think of myself as a futurist but when people imagine the future together they start thinking in different ways you know they start more positive more social science research but they start thinking about the world in more positive ways so I guess that's a long way of saying that you know when I think about repairing the social fabric I think about like not we're not we're not going to be talking about issues and things like we're just going to be talking about like envisioning um a better you know what is the world that we want and then that we and then how are we going to create that world um and what is my responsibility for that world we're not I don't need that I just don't like those conversations that often happen especially when you're talking about politics where people say oh well you think this or whatever I'm like you don't know what I think you know like all I want to know is you need to just talk about what you know what your vision is and what you think don't tell me what I think and I I think that's a lot you know we we do a lot of like assuming of other people's intentions and beliefs so anyway so kind of I guess all that is safe to kind of taking it back to the individual but also the individual's role in society as part of the whole and I often quote and think about my the great activist Grace Lee Boggs who said in order to transform society you have to transform yourself first and so that's so those are the kinds of conversations I want to be having in terms of having this sort of flourishing world is like I want to create space for people to pause and transform themselves first to reflect inward first before they start going out and trying to you know make a difference in the world for me too you know I'm doing it too
Rob Lee: that's so so big and I find like you know we need to think about things more often and we unfortunately we don't because it's like if we're using social media as the guide right that it inspires sort of that discourse that may lean into that sort of negative sort of lens and but I think in having sort of what do you think that leads to the opportunity for discourse and perhaps understanding and we don't get caught with the sort of well I'm in this group so because I'm in this group it means this and you're in that group it's just like we might be more like if we're able to get past that stuff and have a dialogue yeah
Philippa Pham Hughes: yeah and like I'm in a lot of groups like you know I don't have a single identity and the other person I quote a lot lately is Walt Whitman who said that the United States are the greatest poem and what he meant was that you know just like poetry the United States are made of disparate parts that don't not always they're not you know they're not always like aligned but somehow it all unites together it that's our goal anyway um and that poetry is a lot like that like sometimes I don't always make sense individual lines or words but when you put it all together it's like oh my god that is so beautiful and moving so disparate parts unified whole
Rob Lee: and that's that's a good that's a poetic way to kind of rap on the main part of the song so there's a couple rapid fire questions I want to ask you before we close out here and as I tell folks all the time you don't want to overthink these these are just fun goofy questions little quirky so the first one first one I've been forgetting my keys a lot recently it's not good what is something that you always forget so
Philippa Pham Hughes: many things like so many things you know what okay the thing that just pops into my head I have a friend named Holly who I've known for 20 years and she's a peanut allergy and I always forget that she has a peanut allergy and so you know if I have her over dinner she's like dude peanuts like how do I forget I'm I anyway yeah
Rob Lee: that's an important one not to forget what are we doing here
Philippa Pham Hughes: what are we doing here
Rob Lee: um here's the next one um I think the small incremental things matter so what is something that has brought you joy recently that I mean someone else might consider small or relatively insignificant but it brought you a lot of joy was it like hey I found a penny this time and it was a really cool penny or whatever the thing was but what's something small that's brought you joy
Philippa Pham Hughes: you know I know these are so so rapid fire but I just love this question in part because you know people especially if they don't have a new you very long they're like wow like you just burst onto the scene or like your success feels one success feels very sudden and like they want to know what there's like this very this moment that everything changed and helped you succeed but no it's like I spent 10 years you know incrementally building something and then I got the Kennedy Center residency like they didn't just hand it to me for nothing I got worked my ass off for a really long time incremental little incremental successes and many setbacks so anyway so I'm very into like thinking about the world very incrementally and just taking little steps you
Rob Lee: know it's it's true I mean you know overnight success I've been doing it for a decade
Philippa Pham Hughes: yeah there is no overnight success there just isn't and I get really upset when people like think about it in those terms like you've got to be kidding me
Rob Lee: look hey you're talking to a person's been a podcast for 16 years and they're like no you haven't I was like yes
Philippa Pham Hughes: so but to actually answer your question you know I well okay I don't this isn't recent but I have been thinking about how during the pandemic I I've always been an exerciser but I don't lift a lot of weights and then as you know during the pandemic I mean you know I was able to we could take walks outside but I wasn't really exercising that much and so I just got some hand weights and a couple friends and I just started working out together on zoom and we'd each have our own weights and then we'd find these workouts and and we just kept doing it like every day through the pandemic and then for a couple years after we've kind of started we haven't been doing it together as much but to look at the weights that I have now which is the ones I started with it's so cool I mean it's so obvious like that's how you build muscle mass you need to start small but it really works
Rob Lee: that's that's great that's definitely incremental that's
Philippa Pham Hughes: that's truly incremental I mean oh those are small weights at the
Rob Lee: beginning I just got my partner some weights today and so yeah definitely she had like the one pounder maybe two pounders and actually it's like look I'm gonna need to five I was like you'll have the eighth thing like what are you like what are we doing so here's the the last one and you know you kind of touched on you know cooking for folks and meals and so on so I must ask what is like your go-to meal that you like to make for someone you're inviting them over you know what is the meal
Philippa Pham Hughes: well when I first started doing the the cross political dinner you know right here at my dining table right behind me I for a couple meals I tried to make red and blue foods just to be like ha ha maybe red and blue food was too difficult but one thing that I landed on was I always made a blueberry and cherry crisp for dessert I like it and then it would turn into a purple goo at the end you know when it was done baking and so that was that's been my go-to dessert for a long time I
Rob Lee: love that I love that you know and I'll share this with you afterwards who I have you but I think that's I think that's also a telling component to like it turns into that the sort of purple goo it's just like yeah it's all together it's a melting sort of thing and purple is the color of unity is the color of royalty is so many different things that's kind of like a message kind of baked in there I
Philippa Pham Hughes: love cooking but also my partner always complains that he's like you like to you only cook when people come over like if it's just me and him I'm like let's order pizza
Rob Lee: that's great that's great so that's kind of it for the conversation for the podcast so there are two things I would love to do as we close out one I would love to thank you for coming on and spending some time with me this has been truly a treat I feel like I've learned something I've had a little homework that I've typed up so I'm gonna be looking up Ken Woodward and you know you know Warhol economy and and two I would like to invite and encourage you to share with the media website any of that stuff so folks can just take a deeper dive into your work into your background and follow along
Philippa Pham Hughes: yeah thank you for letting me do that I mean I do have a comprehensive website phillipahuse.com one L two P and yeah you know and you know as I said earlier I am a prolific Instagrammer and Facebook user and I can you know I can't I can't add any more social media at this point in my life so so I would love to hear from I love I answer my messages like I love hearing from people so if people want to message me and ask a question you will hear from me
Rob Lee: and there you have it folks I want to again thank phillipahuse for coming on to The Truth in Us Art and share a bit of her story with us and for phillipahuse I am Rob Lee saying that there's art, culture and community and around your neck of the woods you just have to look forward
