Photographer Natalie Cheung discusses her cameraless approach to capturing light

00;00;10;13 - 00;00;24;16
Rob Lee
Welcome to the truth in this art. I am your host, Rob Lee, and my next guests. Their work captures experience through time and moving onto a surface of a photographic medium. Please welcome Natalie Chung. Welcome to the podcast.

00;00;25;03 - 00;00;29;03
Natalie Cheung
Oh, hello, Rob. Thanks for having me.

00;00;29;19 - 00;00;38;04
Rob Lee
Thank you for coming to the podcast. This is just. Just just to. Just to weirdos wearing glasses. Just. Just talking about it. I love it.

00;00;38;05 - 00;00;43;06
Natalie Cheung
I know, I know. My glasses are thicker than yours. So there's.

00;00;43;11 - 00;01;04;16
Rob Lee
My glasses have their own Instagram account. And here's the thing about that. Okay. So before we get into deep into it, right. Because, you know, we're here to talk about your work and talk about your process, but mostly your work and, you know, some of your creative interests. I want to have you, you know, kind of open it up and do what I think a lot of us are good at and talk about yourself.

00;01;04;16 - 00;01;07;00
Rob Lee
Share your story. Wish. What's the story and how did we get here?

00;01;07;18 - 00;01;33;01
Natalie Cheung
Oh, okay. Well, the Natalie Chung story, I was born and my parents decided I should be a piano prodigy, like many people's parents do. So at an early age, probably five or six. I was off to piano lessons, you know, for ten years I struggled to do well. You know, I did the recital. I froze up once or twice.

00;01;33;01 - 00;01;59;14
Natalie Cheung
I never practiced the piano, always in the coldest corner of the house where there were, like, bugs and stuff all around, just, like, not good vibes, right? So, like, that happened all right after I was born. So eventually, you know, after a long run of failure, I, I was given the option to stop said piano lessons, and I was like, Yeah, let's do it.

00;01;59;14 - 00;02;22;21
Natalie Cheung
I don't want to do this anymore. I and, you know, funny enough, that same year I took up darkroom photography in high school and I really loved it. And I think it was sort of like a matter of being artistic but being in the wrong medium altogether. Yeah. And I'll never hear the end of the piano lessons for my parents.

00;02;22;21 - 00;02;28;18
Natalie Cheung
They still try to ask me for lots of money, but I mean.

00;02;29;01 - 00;02;57;22
Rob Lee
I feel like and thank you. Thank you. I feel like I got to have a bunch of canvases where I thought I was going to start painting again years ago. And I have I had this go right back in 2006. So we're six years removed that 2006 sorry. So we're six years removed from that at this point where I wanted to do it wasn't huge, but I want to like I guess a 13 by 18 canvas, I want to paint one per month and I got through maybe about six months and I was like, you know, these are stuff.

00;02;57;22 - 00;03;16;04
Rob Lee
And I was just giving the paintings away. I was like, I want to just do this and try to get this creative urge out. So that Christmas, obviously all I got was painting supplies and my medium is mostly audio. And I was like, This is a lower entry for you guys. This is, you know, gear costs more, but canvases not as much.

00;03;16;16 - 00;03;19;11
Natalie Cheung
This one's a Michael's that they're 20% coupon.

00;03;19;19 - 00;03;28;09
Rob Lee
Oh, they got lit they want they're just like, yo, let me get the canvases and get some brushes. What else you need? I was like, I just I need a new microphone on. And I could.

00;03;28;25 - 00;03;33;07
Natalie Cheung
Now see how to paint. You'll use it, and then I'll get a present, and that will be cool.

00;03;34;14 - 00;03;52;28
Rob Lee
So when, when did you realize, like, you know, you mentioned piano and and I've heard like that sort of story, whereas, like, that wasn't a medium for me. When did you realize, like, photography were being around? Photography was like an interest for you? Was there like a work that you saw? Was it like how do they how.

00;03;52;28 - 00;03;54;28
Natalie Cheung
Do they do that? How did you get that shot? How do they.

00;03;55;07 - 00;04;01;02
Rob Lee
Like, you know, maybe do this sort of like development of this is photo when it become an interest for you.

00;04;01;12 - 00;04;25;27
Natalie Cheung
Okay geared it was the do little album from the Pixies like so my entry into photography was all about album art and the album just had like it was like crusty placing like a nail in the wall or like a, like a cracked spoon and like some stuff like baby arms and stuff like that. And it was, I was like, this is what I need to do.

00;04;26;03 - 00;04;49;08
Natalie Cheung
And, you know, I was in my high school photo class and I was lucky at the time because we had a really strong art department and like great funding. So that helped a lot. And, you know, I, I was like, I'm going to take these pictures. And we were so working in darkroom because I'm old and like I started, I had this old 35 millimeter camera that my uncle gave me.

00;04;49;08 - 00;05;09;27
Natalie Cheung
And when he gave it to me, I was like, Wow, we saved so much money. But then it was like broken, right? So like it was new in the box, but it was like completely broken on the inside. So like, before I even took one picture, it was already costing me a fortune. Oh, now. Yeah. Oh, no. Yeah.

00;05;09;28 - 00;05;33;02
Natalie Cheung
So that was you start the album art. And it's, it's interesting because like there is this like there was like this asphalt picture and one of the, like the album art that I liked and, and I and I had this baby sprite that I collected for myself. And it's weirdly enough that my best friend in high school gave me her wisdom teeth, the purple.

00;05;33;09 - 00;05;48;09
Natalie Cheung
So I took pictures of teeth everywhere, right? Just there, just in odd places. And I submitted this portfolio to college, and that is the portfolio that got me into college. Zero pictures of, geez.

00;05;48;19 - 00;06;12;24
Rob Lee
I'm not going to smile. I'm not going to smile for the rest of this part. So that that is inside out. I'm getting very great, actually. So I see the I go to I don't think I've heard this before actually maybe, maybe once. But this, this notion of having something that's like broken doesn't work, especially from a gear standpoint.

00;06;12;24 - 00;06;32;10
Rob Lee
I remember I was scrounging around in my community and it was an elementary school that got rid of this. This dubbing machine. So they had like cassette tapes in it because I am old as well and it had like one sided. You can record to that, you can do the dub on it. So and it had a microphone port.

00;06;32;22 - 00;06;49;28
Rob Lee
So my mom was really into karaoke. So we had a microphone around the house and I just brought this machine over and I was trying to impress a girl and I did a full like rap song on it in high school. That wasn't good, but I was like one of my early experiences dealing with audio. It didn't work after it.

00;06;50;14 - 00;06;56;16
Rob Lee
It worked long enough for me to get this one embarrassing. Very embarrassing of my dad recording out of it.

00;06;56;16 - 00;07;02;25
Natalie Cheung
Probably nowhere, right? Because this is before YouTube. So like everything you did is forgiven.

00;07;03;29 - 00;07;09;06
Rob Lee
I have reunions that come up and I'm sure that someone's like, You'll murder Mac because it was a mac best rap song.

00;07;09;24 - 00;07;18;11
Natalie Cheung
Yeah. What are they going to do, bring out a VHS or like a cassette tape and then plug it, like, look on the cassette tape player?

00;07;19;03 - 00;07;24;15
Rob Lee
Look, I'm sure. I'm sure. It's like, oh, that's Bernie Mac right there. Like that panel I was telling you about.

00;07;25;11 - 00;07;28;11
Natalie Cheung
That's not a bad nickname you could have ended up with worse.

00;07;28;20 - 00;07;55;27
Rob Lee
This is true. This is true. It was murder IMU RDA like ja rule and yeah yeah to make it really dated. So you mentioned that you mentioned the Pixies album which I did look up, shout out to you. Could you share some of your early like or even currently creative influences like what helped you get to this kind of like esthetic, this sensibility that you have when it comes to your work?

00;07;56;21 - 00;08;26;10
Natalie Cheung
Oh, I mean, artists like artists that we all know about or though we as the art people, I guess so like all of our lives and artworks like on, on our interaction with light, like his, his light installations are amazing and they make me think about, you know, like the perception of light and what's around us. There was this one artwork, I think it was in the MoMA when I saw it, but it was called like Room for one Color.

00;08;26;17 - 00;08;49;12
Natalie Cheung
And basically it was like a hallway, like you here in the MoMA, New York, and you go up the escalators. It was one of those hallways right next to the escalator where the room was like full of these kind of like yellow floor, Russian white things. And you would go under this yellow light and all of a sudden everybody in the yellow light would be blocking white grayscale.

00;08;49;12 - 00;09;14;03
Natalie Cheung
And I looked at my hand and I was like, Wow, this is amazing. Like, I think I need to meet my the one here. And it never happened, which is like really tragic. But I remember this is a time before cell phones had I really tell people this or and I took my cell phone or my, my camera or like the winding camera with the flash.

00;09;14;10 - 00;09;40;25
Natalie Cheung
And I was like, I want you to get your purse. So I took a picture. And then when I got them developed eventually, like because of the flash, it turned on like you couldn't. Everybody was back to color, right? No. It was like made me think about, like this ephemeral moment with lighting and like just the lighting. But, you know, a lot of other works are interesting, too, and I'm just gearing off of this contemporary artwork.

00;09;40;25 - 00;10;06;13
Natalie Cheung
I also found sight on these paintings, like, really influential. Like they're all sort of these, like, scribbling squiggly paintings. And there is only one thing he ever wrote about his art. And it was like it wasn't that long. He was basically saying that the lines that he painted were the actual experience, saying that they were not illustrating something.

00;10;06;13 - 00;10;34;02
Natalie Cheung
So like compare that to photography. We're like, you're using this piece of equipment to go take a picture, something that already exists in front of you, and you're kind of like documenting it versus like where my artwork is, is camera photography and you're kind of it's kind of this experience happening on this paper surface, right, of something that's happening for a moment.

00;10;34;02 - 00;10;49;13
Rob Lee
So I want to put a pin in that because I have something to ask you about that camera less piece there. Sure. But I want to put a pin in there and I want to ask you about this, and I'm going to change this up a little bit. Yeah, generally people do. And tell me about your process. What's your process?

00;10;49;17 - 00;11;04;24
Rob Lee
Oh, what, how? How I'll ask. It is what would be the word you would use to describe your process? And and there's a part, but I'll let you kind of like ruminate on that one a little bit. What is the word you use to describe your process?

00;11;05;12 - 00;11;11;05
Natalie Cheung
How were two words given to chance operations?

00;11;11;26 - 00;11;12;08
Rob Lee
I love it.

00;11;12;21 - 00;11;13;09
Natalie Cheung
Yeah, I love it.

00;11;13;26 - 00;11;15;29
Rob Lee
So your process is chance operations?

00;11;16;12 - 00;11;18;29
Natalie Cheung
Yes. In the photographic medium.

00;11;19;10 - 00;11;38;09
Rob Lee
Yeah, I like that. It's better than trying to just say yeah. What me through your process, give me the steps. Would be curious to know how you do this because I think sometimes like we, we like to share what we do. We like to talk about how we do what we do. But also, obviously, I want to give away why I'm keeping keeping some of my secrets is my special sauce.

00;11;38;09 - 00;11;39;18
Rob Lee
I got to keep to myself, you know?

00;11;40;16 - 00;11;59;12
Natalie Cheung
Yeah, you're doing it in secret and it's not secret, right? So there, you know, I think anyone who goes through like a actual photo program will have some idea what's going on. But I have been doing this for a while, so there's also that.

00;12;00;11 - 00;12;21;16
Rob Lee
So what would you say the best time for you in in this can be like during the day. It could be doing like a given part of a year. Like I remember listening in Austin Kleon steal like an artist and all of that and is describing like when he lived in Ohio, he's like, you know, this part of the year is very cold, so I'm always inside.

00;12;21;16 - 00;12;36;25
Rob Lee
I'm getting most of my work done. And now living in Texas is like the summer is very hot. So it's just me getting all of my work done because I'm not going outside. So whether it's my time of the year or time of the day when I'm do you do your best work? When are you like at your most productive?

00;12;37;05 - 00;13;00;14
Natalie Cheung
Okay, so you cheated and you already knew about that because literally that is my answer. I work seasonally because first of all, I need to like build up the momentum and like the urge to go and make something is like, I admire people who can stand all year and like pace themselves. And I, I just. I couldn't do it.

00;13;01;01 - 00;13;29;16
Natalie Cheung
I would feel overwhelmed. I think. So I so when it's like 100 degrees outside or if it's like 11 degrees outside, that is when I'm inside working. And I'm also definitely like a morning person. I, I, I requested that we move this, this podcast because I was like, well, I don't know, 7pmi think I might be sleeping that oh no.

00;13;29;16 - 00;13;33;06
Rob Lee
Like, I'm like, you already got your peloton in and everything. You're like, I, I.

00;13;33;29 - 00;13;39;22
Natalie Cheung
Actually, I did, I actually got my total Ativan today. How did you know? No, these things.

00;13;39;27 - 00;13;41;13
Rob Lee
I mean, like, I'm observant.

00;13;42;21 - 00;13;45;10
Natalie Cheung
Oh, my God. Yeah, my sweatshirt. So it's kind of.

00;13;46;00 - 00;14;08;16
Rob Lee
I might like I have this one ridiculous rule, and it has nothing to do with it, but it does kind of speak to, you know, because we're all doing, like, multiple things. We have a day job, we have like other obligations we're doing while creating right. And I have this one bit that's so ridiculous. I don't go out for coffee unless the temperature is higher than my age.

00;14;08;16 - 00;14;10;15
Natalie Cheung
Okay. Wow, that's really specific.

00;14;11;05 - 00;14;28;01
Rob Lee
So when it gets super cold, like I'm 37, so when it's like cold and it's like, look, we need a few more degrees before I leave our clothes. It's like we need a few more degrees before I shift and move my body outside to get anybody's coffee. That's the way I kind of approach it.

00;14;29;04 - 00;14;40;27
Natalie Cheung
I'm, I'm very lazy. I have like the bottles of cold brew concentrate in the summer and then in the winter. I like, I like do a pour over and I feel very, very fancy for it.

00;14;41;15 - 00;14;42;22
Rob Lee
Thank you. So thank you extended.

00;14;43;23 - 00;14;44;26
Natalie Cheung
Have for sure.

00;14;45;08 - 00;15;00;29
Rob Lee
But yeah. But here's here's the other thing. No when I do go to get that coffee after it's 30, at least 38 degrees I usually get an iced coffee though or cold brew and they're just like you're you're just trolling. You're trolling in some way. I was like, this is how I like my coffee is better flavor.

00;15;01;21 - 00;15;04;23
Natalie Cheung
Oh, sorry. I mean, I know.

00;15;04;25 - 00;15;05;13
Rob Lee
The flavor guy.

00;15;05;19 - 00;15;08;23
Natalie Cheung
I think you need to change of your system. Does it?

00;15;09;10 - 00;15;11;27
Rob Lee
Look, Natalie, this is my process, and how dare you?

00;15;12;08 - 00;15;19;05
Natalie Cheung
But you know what? I do eat ice cream when it's winter, because that's the best time to eat ice cream because it doesn't melt that.

00;15;19;05 - 00;15;20;15
Rob Lee
That's. That's legit. That's legit.

00;15;20;20 - 00;15;21;02
Natalie Cheung
Yeah.

00;15;21;14 - 00;15;40;02
Rob Lee
Um, so is there, is there an experience, right? And this just kind of brings back in, is there an experience that, you know, being like from a formerly trained photographer that that doesn't use like a camera? Tell me about what that experience is and like let's talk about that a little bit.

00;15;40;15 - 00;16;10;20
Natalie Cheung
Yeah. So, okay, I obviously used to own a camera. I am a gearhead, I used to be a huge camera gear had like Hasselblad like medium format, large format. That was all music. Woo! I got my cell phone of real camera, which is one of those things that takes like the four by five inch film. And I still love those things and I guess secretly I do have some vintage cameras that I still own, but I don't I don't really use them.

00;16;10;20 - 00;16;36;08
Natalie Cheung
I don't use them. I use the the camera on my phone. And that's about it. And I'm actually a little bitter and I don't know if I can say this without getting in trouble, but like Apple needs to update their software to their camera because my iPhone six so that my iPhone whatever this is like probably a 12.

00;16;36;08 - 00;16;38;12
Rob Lee
Yeah that's that's no that's legit.

00;16;38;12 - 00;16;51;20
Natalie Cheung
That's why it's a software issue. It's not a hardware issue. Like I know this because I am a photographer and I went to the Apple store and I was like, I demand satisfaction. And they're like, Why are you so? And I was like, No, make this camera work.

00;16;51;27 - 00;16;54;01
Rob Lee
I want to reference you when I go there for my new camera. By the.

00;16;54;01 - 00;17;21;20
Natalie Cheung
Way, you look at the sticker glasses on me, she's cool or Yeah, but you know what? This is why I stopped using your camera. Like I learned that you didn't actually have to use a camera. And I was like, Oh, really? But then before the age of Instagram happens and Instagram burnout, like, I already had burnout from seeing a camera everywhere I went, I couldn't enjoy myself.

00;17;21;20 - 00;17;38;12
Natalie Cheung
I had to like figure out an angle or figure out a subject to take a picture of. And it was like mentally exhausting because you can't be in the moment, especially like back then when like I had to have use a phone camera and it's like, you know, a couple of pounds, right? Yeah. So you're carrying it around.

00;17;38;12 - 00;17;51;28
Natalie Cheung
You're very conspicuous. People look at you weird and I don't care about any of that. I always act weird anyway, but I. I just wanted to be in the moment and, you know, I. And this is how I found the way I could be.

00;17;52;14 - 00;18;10;17
Rob Lee
I dig that. And I dig that. And I think I try to find a way and I like how you describe like the size was a thing because that really puts it in context. Like I always think of photographers like Peter Parker in it. It's fine, it's green, it's like this is a couple extra pounds and, and I hate carrying things myself.

00;18;11;07 - 00;18;34;08
Rob Lee
So however, like I found over the time, like when I first went down there to do more than fine art and did some interviews, I think I interviewed Jimmy Woo and Michael Booker. I was down there and I had my small gear. I had like a miniature mixer and lava layer mikes and I had like earbuds. I could fit my full gear into a fanny pack.

00;18;34;20 - 00;18;52;14
Rob Lee
And I was like, This is the version that I like, and it meets like, quality. And if I could find a way just in a reliable way to record to my iPhone, I would I don't trust like like you talked about the camera's not great in terms of software. I don't like that audio.

00;18;52;18 - 00;18;57;29
Natalie Cheung
Are you a fanny pack? I feel like all this stuff could be like your your gear. Fanny pack?

00;18;58;04 - 00;19;03;07
Rob Lee
Yeah, that's. I mean, if I can get sponsored by like Herschel, it's almost like, you know, give me a fanny pack. Come on, let's make it happen.

00;19;03;17 - 00;19;10;16
Natalie Cheung
Aim higher. We can aim higher than Herschel. Sorry, I wasn't supposed to say that either. Apple and Herschel. Sorry. So sorry.

00;19;11;01 - 00;19;35;28
Rob Lee
Okay. I mean, I love Carhartt. I mean, just don't. Don't besmirch Carhartt. I'm all. I'm wearing Carhartt College boy. You know, let's let's get me on. So, so so was there a sense that you maybe felt like the camera limiting how you approach the in what ways maybe and not having that sort of traditional I'm using the camera, I'm doing X, Y and Z sort of change your approach to your work.

00;19;36;13 - 00;19;58;19
Natalie Cheung
Yeah. So, you know, I, I learned in my second year of my art program that I didn't have to use a camera. And so I was like, okay, let's try this. Right? But I was still like, you know, when you're taking pictures, you're taking pictures of things that are preexisting. You didn't build them like unless you really wanted to build a subject and then take a picture of it right?

00;19;58;19 - 00;20;28;15
Natalie Cheung
So you always have to look for something that already exists. So I started similarly in camera is photography like there's a process called a photograph and it's basically if you think about what an x ray looks like, the final product kind of looks like that. And what happens is you have your photo paper that's light sensitive, and then you take an object like whatever, like a slice of an apple or like a vegetable or like some keys.

00;20;28;15 - 00;20;50;01
Natalie Cheung
And you put it on top of your photo paper and then you shine a light on it. And then once you process it through the chemicals, what you get is sort of that x ray looking effect. That's kind of where I started and I was like still grounded in the world of objects. So I, I would bring in an apple and slice it up and photograph and be like, Oh, look, it looks like an expert.

00;20;50;25 - 00;21;27;03
Natalie Cheung
But then I was like, you know, this feels very similar to taking pictures of things, too. How can I get out of objects? How can I, you know, get a more satisfying result? Like capture something that, like, can't be captured, like something that is truly fleeting. But I cut out the subject in my work and reduced photography, my photography down to like the basic elements of light chemicals and light sensitive paper.

00;21;28;15 - 00;21;30;24
Natalie Cheung
And that is what I make my images always.

00;21;31;16 - 00;21;52;22
Rob Lee
Show to you, like the way you describe that. And yeah, it's I mean, it's interesting and it kind of almost answers this next question, but I'm still going to ask it because why not? So your work explores red that you work explores that kind of push and pull between physical reality and capture reality. And I think you were kind of touching on that a little bit there.

00;21;53;17 - 00;21;58;20
Rob Lee
What is it about that that really interests you? That really kind of brings you in? Can you tell us more about that?

00;21;59;27 - 00;22;21;13
Natalie Cheung
Well, you know, it's sort of like cut it down to cheesy, but like it's like a feeling like you're seeing like you see something and you don't have to as a viewer of the artwork, you're seeing this artwork and you don't have to think, oh, it's like a street corner with the street sign and this and this and this happening.

00;22;21;23 - 00;22;47;18
Natalie Cheung
You see it and you immediately just feel, yeah, because there's nothing, there's like nothing to look at. Like there's subject matter to look out even though there's technically an image there. This is not what I'm interested in. It's like capturing that experience on the paper. I would compare it to like Ghost Hunters Show and spray. Like, you know, we're trying to capture something that's like unacceptable.

00;22;48;04 - 00;22;59;08
Natalie Cheung
But, you know, there's some cheesy movie magic happening and there's other times there aren't cheesy movie magic happening. And we just have to figure that one out for yourself. Kind of. Yeah.

00;23;00;09 - 00;23;22;05
Rob Lee
Thank you. Thank you. And I appreciate you sharing that some. That's really cool. And I'm getting even more. I think this having this conversation has added some extra color, depth and richness to the research that I've done, my online Internet stalking and looking for old interviews in search of your background to help me with my questions. I mean, it's just this is what I do.

00;23;22;05 - 00;23;33;21
Rob Lee
I got to research. So so I read that upcoming. There's an exhibition. Yes. So could you share more about that with us? This is a moment to plug in.

00;23;34;02 - 00;23;59;26
Natalie Cheung
Oh, yeah, a plug. I'm going to plug. Okay. So the exhibition is is a solo exhibition with Martin Fine Art. It's my second one there and it's called Made of Light because it took me a long time to come to that title. And I'm terrible at titles, so it's a good one, but it features several different bodies of artwork that I've made.

00;23;59;26 - 00;24;22;15
Natalie Cheung
I mean, I don't think like mixing bodies of work in a gallery show works for every artist, but it kind of makes sense for mine because the themes in my work are similar, even though they they look very different from each other. Like I always think that like artists are always like or me. Anyway, I mean, like the spiral.

00;24;23;19 - 00;24;31;17
Natalie Cheung
We're like, I think I'm making something super different, but it's kind of like the same idea just in a different rapper. So that's kind of what's going on.

00;24;33;13 - 00;24;33;25
Rob Lee
So.

00;24;34;20 - 00;24;57;05
Natalie Cheung
And I've made my largest artwork so that, that like I buy largest artwork in there. I think it's like 42 by 80 inches which I took this crazy photo at my framers where like I laid down on the floor in front of this piece and then I like put my arms above my head. And I was like, The artwork is still longer than that.

00;24;58;23 - 00;25;04;20
Natalie Cheung
I was very satisfied. So yeah, it was really cool, like working at a larger scale.

00;25;05;11 - 00;25;35;21
Rob Lee
That's, that's great. That's great. I always had this question for folks of when you look at a piece of work, whether it's your own, whether it's something that you're like appreciating being a viewer for, there's the size does the medium in which it's done kind of change how you feel about it? And you know, like, let's say if this was like a video podcast, would it have a different layer to it then if it was purely audio or if there was a transcript of this as an interview, would that have a different kind of perspective on it?

00;25;36;02 - 00;25;45;11
Rob Lee
Did you how did you feel about making that really large piece? I think that's my measurements, by the way. But how did you feel about making that really large piece out of to make you feel?

00;25;46;03 - 00;26;10;05
Natalie Cheung
Oh, it's just it's so much better. I don't think I could go back to my my regular size, like, you know, it's now like the normal size. Like once you've seen your artwork at that scale, it's so satisfying to the reader. It feels more satisfying than like them, like working on for smaller artwork. So you, I don't know, I think I'm going to continue.

00;26;10;05 - 00;26;24;14
Rob Lee
It's great. I got two more real questions for you and then I got those great rapid fire questions for you. So don't avoid them. Don't run away from those. So outside of your art, what are your what are your interests? What do you like to do? How you like to spend your time?

00;26;25;10 - 00;26;35;18
Natalie Cheung
Okay. Well, I am an exercise now as we've already covered, so I do lots of cycling. And for all the curious out there, yes, I do. Indoor cycling don't.

00;26;36;11 - 00;26;36;19
Rob Lee
Count.

00;26;36;28 - 00;26;59;05
Natalie Cheung
It's like I'm going everywhere but nowhere at the same time real fast. And I also hike. I like to hike, I cook, I travel, I collect plants like I I'm a very normal person. I also collect rocks. I have a rock collection and teeth. And, you know, it's harder to find those these days.

00;26;59;05 - 00;27;02;24
Rob Lee
There's I mean, there is a Netflix show that's going on right now.

00;27;03;22 - 00;27;15;01
Natalie Cheung
This you know what? I'm sure I could even do this, but I if I don't know where they're from, it's not special. But those creepy.

00;27;15;01 - 00;27;33;21
Rob Lee
Yes. So this this almost is in the same vein. So it's like a part B to that question. What are some things that you like after I would imagine like, you know, I talk to people about putting on a new exhibition or what have you, especially when it's like a solo show and there's a lot of stuff that goes into it and it's like.

00;27;34;00 - 00;27;35;05
Natalie Cheung
People like nuts.

00;27;35;11 - 00;27;54;03
Rob Lee
They're they're on edge the entire time and it's like, well, is this going to be good? Is it dog la la? What are your favorite things to do to refill your cup like? Or is there anything special outside of what you kind of do as a normal person and know? Normal people say that, but as a normal person that you like to do that kind of.

00;27;54;08 - 00;28;00;06
Rob Lee
So your cup that's regenerative for you after all of those, all of that energy is out there for an exhibition.

00;28;00;18 - 00;28;22;25
Natalie Cheung
Yeah. I mean, I, I take a mental break. I hope other people do, but I do that by, you know, kind of, like I say, turning my brain off a little bit. And I watch the worst television that there is. And existence like I, I'm talking about like the entire show, like all of the seasons of the Jersey Shore.

00;28;22;25 - 00;28;46;08
Natalie Cheung
She's like 90 days on day. If you haven't seen it. It's it's so juicy. I mean, it's like out there. But then what's really bad is, like, I get so injured 90 days on day that I go on YouTube and then I watch reactions and analysis of such show analysis. It's a little, much. It's a lot. But I think free breaks are important.

00;28;46;08 - 00;28;46;25
Natalie Cheung
You know.

00;28;47;08 - 00;29;05;00
Rob Lee
I take them I take them most of the time. I mean, literally with with doing doing like three, four interviews. Sometimes on a day I'm like, I'm just going to order some food and watch anime for the rest of the night. That's literally what happens. And because I'm ridiculous. But that is a.

00;29;05;14 - 00;29;17;02
Natalie Cheung
It's like if it's like a show you already watched before, you know what's going to happen because like, let's be real, we have to play it safe. Our brain is like in trauma right now.

00;29;17;11 - 00;29;35;28
Rob Lee
Yeah, yeah. Like when if I do, like, I think the closest thing for me in terms of presenting what I do but to an audience is not an exhibition, obviously, but doing a movie screening. I'm out of my mind most of the day. Am I don't want to look at movies. I don't want to see screens for the next week or so.

00;29;36;10 - 00;29;49;22
Rob Lee
And it's like I just need to listen to like a movie review or something. Something that I know is going to be solid is comfort food. That's that's what I need. I need whatever the version of comfort food there is. That's not necessarily food.

00;29;50;04 - 00;29;51;11
Natalie Cheung
Yeah, little sense.

00;29;51;26 - 00;30;03;00
Rob Lee
So so with that, I think that's a good spot for us to kind of wrap on the real questions. And as you've been talking, I've had several more rapid fire questions I hope you're ready.

00;30;03;07 - 00;30;04;17
Natalie Cheung
To do with hot wings.

00;30;05;27 - 00;30;06;14
Rob Lee
Yes.

00;30;07;02 - 00;30;07;18
Natalie Cheung
Oh.

00;30;08;02 - 00;30;12;26
Rob Lee
Yeah. I didn't send any wings and any sauce to your to your crib.

00;30;12;26 - 00;30;14;11
Natalie Cheung
So that's quite a show.

00;30;16;07 - 00;30;22;01
Rob Lee
So. All right. It's going to be a softball. What is your favorite color?

00;30;22;01 - 00;30;36;28
Natalie Cheung
Oh, I guess blue or I mean, I sound disappointed because I feel like people who know me expect it to be blue because like a lot of my artwork is blue and I'm like, it just happens to be blue. Okay, okay. Fair enough.

00;30;38;06 - 00;30;41;01
Rob Lee
What is your go to snack on?

00;30;42;14 - 00;30;43;13
Natalie Cheung
Oh, God.

00;30;43;17 - 00;30;45;13
Rob Lee
That's going to get progressively more challenging.

00;30;45;18 - 00;30;58;24
Natalie Cheung
Well, it's like really challenging the way I need tomatoes from the farmer's market. Okay. Yeah, the tiny tomatoes from the Giants. Does it have any flavor?

00;30;59;07 - 00;31;04;18
Rob Lee
I think, of those flavor bombs, the ones from, like, Wegmans, what have you, they're like stone, a little vine like moons.

00;31;04;18 - 00;31;05;21
Natalie Cheung
How fancy.

00;31;05;25 - 00;31;12;13
Rob Lee
Oh, pinkies I'll always think is extended. You mentioned earlier ice cream. Favorite ice cream flavor.

00;31;13;20 - 00;31;25;07
Natalie Cheung
Mint chocolate chip. Oh, yeah, it seems wrong, right? It's like, really wrong, but it's so great. Like, it just. It's like cooling chocolate.

00;31;25;17 - 00;31;45;26
Rob Lee
I have trauma related to that flavor. Oh, I mean, not real trauma, but like, I got, like, you know, like where I grew up in, we had a, a market like one of those kind of like open air markets across the street from my in my apartment, apartment building. And my cousin looks a lot like me, at least at the time he looked a lot like me.

00;31;46;07 - 00;32;05;23
Rob Lee
So he goes over there to get my dad's ice cream. I did have standing order. Every Friday I'm getting two pints of ice cream. It was like one ridiculous famous one was walnut ice cream and the other one was pineapple ice cream. So they always need to order. And my cousin goes over there and he picks up the order and they're thinking, That's me.

00;32;06;01 - 00;32;22;19
Rob Lee
And they give him a pint of his favorite flavor. They get it for me. And it happened to be there's the, the mint chocolate chip. So I was like, there was an ice cream that was earmarked for me that I didn't get. And I was just I was just so upset about it. I was like, you, you act it like me.

00;32;22;19 - 00;32;24;09
Rob Lee
You got my ice cream that was meant for me.

00;32;25;04 - 00;32;34;18
Natalie Cheung
I was thinking that would a traumatic story would involve the replacement of chocolate chips with raisins. Oh, well, because that would be traumatic.

00;32;35;11 - 00;32;39;03
Rob Lee
Well, there's only one ice cream that reasons aren't right. Like Rocky Road or something.

00;32;39;14 - 00;32;40;26
Natalie Cheung
No wrong reason.

00;32;41;04 - 00;32;44;26
Rob Lee
One reason I like vanilla ice cream. I got to tell you.

00;32;45;08 - 00;32;45;15
Natalie Cheung
What.

00;32;46;04 - 00;32;48;20
Rob Lee
It is. I mean, I'm a vanilla guy, plain.

00;32;48;25 - 00;32;54;08
Natalie Cheung
Yeah. You just can't. You can't criticize chocolate chip. There's nothing there for you.

00;32;54;18 - 00;33;02;26
Rob Lee
Fair enough. So with it, what is your last Google search? So now it's getting even weirder.

00;33;02;26 - 00;33;03;18
Natalie Cheung
Wow.

00;33;03;21 - 00;33;04;11
Rob Lee
Who's Rob Lee?

00;33;05;19 - 00;33;08;02
Natalie Cheung
Can I look, I don't know.

00;33;08;13 - 00;33;11;10
Rob Lee
That would be great if someone's last Google search. Who the hell am I talking to? You?

00;33;11;24 - 00;33;40;10
Natalie Cheung
Actually, with hot sauce. Look like that's true. There was it was like a hot. Okay so there's that you know, the Korean ramen that everyone talked about like a couple of years ago with the chicken on there was like a chicken icon, the chicken on fire. Okay. So I ate a packet of ramen today that I obviously and I, I don't know what I was thinking when I bought it was like two times, it was like times too spicy.

00;33;40;18 - 00;34;12;19
Natalie Cheung
So I eat this robin and I am Chinese, which means like, I have the highest threshold of spice ever. And bye. We're involuntary, really crying. And my lips were, like, pulsating red. And they were pulsating. And I could not function for, like, 20 minutes because I was going around my house, like, licking every type of flavor there was to, you're right, cells.

00;34;12;19 - 00;34;16;22
Natalie Cheung
It was like it's like, this is what happens when insanity happens.

00;34;18;00 - 00;34;38;16
Rob Lee
That's that's funny actually I am I recently had sushi for like just some like I think it was like McGarry and just some other regular random rolls or what have you. But I hadn't really had it over like the last three years. Like I eat a lot of sushi and for the last three years I've not really eating a lot of sushi just because I'm like, has the experience is different?

00;34;38;16 - 00;34;57;16
Rob Lee
I want to take home sushi. I need to go into the place. And if there's a place I like to go to, they always bring out extra sushi because they know that I eat a lot. They're like, Oh, the sushi master guy and they just bring in more. Sushi is great. And I didn't really properly measure how much wasabi I put on there because it's been so long.

00;34;57;16 - 00;35;09;08
Rob Lee
I've been out of practice and it's just like everything was just sweating and leaking from my face. I was like, Oh, this is how I got it, you know, just sushi open, like wasabi overdose. That's what's going to happen. Got it?

00;35;09;16 - 00;35;13;09
Natalie Cheung
Yeah. Just try to assassinate yourself with the wasabi.

00;35;13;27 - 00;35;26;12
Rob Lee
That's just what it is. This is the last question I got for you. I feel like there's a little whimsy there. I feel like there's a little whimsical nature to you. What cartoons do you like? I feel like you're a cartoon person.

00;35;26;15 - 00;35;52;08
Natalie Cheung
Oh, God, I love Bob's Burgers and Bob's Burgers. And like, season one through ten of The Simpsons, season one through ten was just more authentic. Like, the drawings are crappier, the colors are dollar now everything's like, shiny and like and has less like, family value and more kind of like, oh, it's, it's J.K. Rowling on the show, like.

00;35;52;08 - 00;36;07;11
Natalie Cheung
GROSS Can we get a cameo? Like, who cares and Bob's Burgers just because it's like, I don't know. It just I feel like that it's that show had a smell. It would smell like farts and like.

00;36;08;22 - 00;36;10;06
Rob Lee
Wow, wow.

00;36;10;06 - 00;36;18;26
Natalie Cheung
As this part is so gross and greasy.

00;36;20;03 - 00;36;26;14
Rob Lee
It's really funny that sells like soap that I would say outside of this podcast, it's like, man, it's just farts in here as.

00;36;27;12 - 00;36;27;19
Natalie Cheung
Far.

00;36;28;09 - 00;36;40;26
Rob Lee
As it feels like. That's a great assessment. I'm sure when they're in season 13, it's like, Here's this review for Natalie and Virginia. They says, Your show is like farts.

00;36;40;26 - 00;36;45;28
Natalie Cheung
Yeah, your show at the Smell, it would be farts and like cheeseburgers.

00;36;46;14 - 00;37;12;25
Rob Lee
So they have it. So I think that's where we're going to stuff. Stop that right there. One, I want to thank you for coming on to this podcast and chatting it out with me and to I want to invite and encourage you to share with the listeners the details about your upcoming exhibition and where to find you on social media for maybe those updates on the exhibition when all of that good stuff.

00;37;13;00 - 00;37;17;04
Rob Lee
So feel free and the floor is yours too.

00;37;17;05 - 00;37;55;17
Natalie Cheung
My solo exhibition is called Made Light and it runs October 15 to November 12 at Martin Fine Art 5203 North last through to Washington DC and there's an artist reception on October 22nd from 2 to 4 p.m. and follow me on Instagram at Natalie Chung Art Studies Natalie C EU M.G. Art on Instagram. I have to spell that because people don't know that Chinese people have an E and not just a U.

00;37;55;17 - 00;37;57;03
Natalie Cheung
You. There you go.

00;37;57;19 - 00;38;22;07
Rob Lee
Thank you. Well, so I'm one of those people, by the way, I'll admit. So I'm probably saying. Well, for Natalie Chung, I'm Rob Lee, saying there's art in and around your neck of the woods. Go see Made of light. Don't mess around that fine art. Check it out. Probably treat them as art. There's art in around the city.

00;38;22;07 - 00;38;30;23
Rob Lee
He's going to look for it.