And welcome back to the Truth in Us Art, your source for conversations at the intersection of arts, culture, and community. I am your host, Rob Lee, and thank you so much for joining me today. And what you're joining me for is an exciting conversation with my next guest, an Asian American photographer, filmmaker, and designer whose work has been featured at prestigious festivals like Cannes, Sundance, and DOC NYC. Please welcome Jefferson Liu. Welcome to the podcast.
Jefferson Liu:Thank you, Rob. Hello, everyone listening.
Rob Lee:Thank you for coming on. And I must say before I go into, you know, the the the first sort of introductory thing, I like to get this out of the way. I'm jealous of your hair. As a man that's going bald, I I have, like, a my my buddy calls it the Jason Statham stubble. That's what I got going on.
Rob Lee:You have a great head of hair. I'm jealous. I am so jealous right now.
Jefferson Liu:Well, you definitely don't wanna see me bald. Like, I I keep this sort of fluffy thing just because I'm pretty sure there are bumps and weird things in there that nobody will ever wanna see, including myself.
Rob Lee:That's that's great. Me and my, my partner, we we have a term that we call a fluff off. And if you remember Batman 1989, this is a checking thing. Right? It was, Robert Wall and, Michael Keaton.
Rob Lee:They were having an argument, and both of their hairs was just teased up and levitating. So whenever I see floofy hair, I think Andrew Garfield. Right? I'm just like, yep. This is a lot.
Jefferson Liu:That that was the best Batman. So
Rob Lee:You get it. So thank you for for making the time to come on. And before we get into sort of the the main topics, I would love for you to introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about your work, kind of like a little bit of that tease, if you will.
Jefferson Liu:Alright. Well, my name is Jefferson. I'm fairly new to Baltimore. So, and and Baltimore was important to me because it sort of started my, sort of mission or or whatever you wanna call it into creating things for myself. I I still am fairly uncomfortable with the term artists, and labeling myself that.
Jefferson Liu:But, most of my life, I I've been in the creative world, but very much in advertising. So, think about TV spots, mainly, like, you know, car brands and a lot of video games, working on things like PlayStation and whatnot. And when I got to Baltimore, I would say that the current state of, like, how I was feeling was very, I'm a great manager. You know, like, I've gotten to this point in my career and, you know, I can I can make good work happen, with a huge team and whatnot? And then, something about Baltimore challenged me or inspired me to to really start making things on my own again.
Jefferson Liu:And, I was traditionally taught as a graphic designer, and I I didn't wanna do that anymore. I felt like, you know, my work, my advert the advertising background, whatnot had taken something that I had passion for and then turned it into a job. And so I wasn't really interested in another job. I didn't, you know, I wanna do something for myself, by myself pretty much. So I got into photography and, you know, a couple of things had happened in my life that really sort of, gave me purpose or a concept to to work around.
Jefferson Liu:Before that, I messed around cameras and and, you know, filmed some documentaries in there. But I really, you know, was like, okay. Well, this is just something that's for pure art, less, sort of blatant communication and whatnot. And, yeah, that's where everything started. That was about, you know, 2 years ago.
Jefferson Liu:So it wasn't that long.
Rob Lee:No. Thank thank you. And, definitely, we're gonna we're gonna tease through a few things in there because it's, it's interesting, like I I hate the word journey, but I'll use it for simplicity here. It's an interesting journey when, you know, you have sort of this, I guess, awakening when you're doing something that feels like it's business, but it has a creative bent to it, but then it shifts into, this is fine. What is the other version of it?
Rob Lee:What is a version where I can kinda stretch those creative muscles? For for a long time, I have tried to, you know, do something creative. Like, my background before before podcast almost concurrently was in marketing with marketing analytics. And, you know, I started that sort of career in 2,007 and started podcasting in 2009. So it's almost right there.
Rob Lee:And but always in the day job trying to find a way I was keeping them separate, but trying to find a way to do something that satisfied this creative urge. And, you know, after kind of leaving that marketing job going into higher ed, and there was an opportunity, ironically, with my current day job employer, but, you know, it was a sort of different time, where there was a a podcasting opportunity that was sitting there. And at that point, I'd had almost 6 years of experience as a podcaster, self taught thing. Right? And I was just, like, really, like, honestly, like, this is an attempt to bring both of those together.
Rob Lee:I do this. They're looking for this, and they just rejected it. They rejected the idea. They rejected the concept for it for a job that was was sitting there, basically podcasting, marketing experience, higher ed. I was like, I have all 3 of these.
Rob Lee:And, you know, that was a period where I learned something where it's like it's best to keep them separate. You know, it's best to kind of do your own thing. This is for me. The the date of, if you will, is the funder. I like to look at it.
Rob Lee:And, you know, I've kind of rode off of that over the last, what, 11 years since that sort of situation presented itself.
Jefferson Liu:Well, yeah. Journey is a good word for it. You know, whether you're on it or not, you know, it just sort of happens to you.
Rob Lee:Mhmm. So you you've touched on, photography, and I became aware of you because I got I always ask folks, send me a headshot. I always ask for that. And, you know, I interview Christina, and this is the second time I've interviewed Christina. And she was like, make sure you credit Jefferson.
Rob Lee:I was like, got you. So the the the visual, it's it's a dope visual. I might be reaching out to you for later conversation about a later topic, you know, hint hint wink wink point at the nose. But it it struck me. It was like it was it was visually striking.
Rob Lee:There was some depth in there. It's just it was a really just cool image. I'm not a photography guy, but it was a really cool image. Talk about sort of your your view in developing sort of a a striking image or what would hit in that way. Like, I generally ask this question, what separates a good image from a bad image or a great image from a not so great image?
Rob Lee:But what are your, like, thoughts on photography?
Jefferson Liu:Yeah. There there's, it's an interesting art form. Right? It's it's one where everybody does it now. You know, we all have these amazing phones that take amazing images, and it's, it's very accessible.
Jefferson Liu:It's not like back in the the the sort of early days where cameras are extremely rare and hard to use, and, you know, there was a barrier to entry. Now anybody is capable of taking a great shot. You know, like, you give somebody a 1,000,000 shots, 1 or 2 of those are gonna be phenomenal. But, you know, I think what that does, like, with music, with filmmaking and whatnot, the accessibility, the proliferation of, you know, that that medium, starts to challenge artists to do things in their own special way. For me, photography is very technical in a lot of ways.
Jefferson Liu:You know, it's, one of those things where you can easily get right and wrong with the cameras that we use. And that's just the the the sort of ground rules. And there's an artistry even in how you deal with the the machine itself, the type of gear you work with, and whatnot. But then, you know, what are you trying to say? And it's interesting, like, with Christine and and, you know, working with other artists.
Jefferson Liu:I feel like there's a different goal in mind with some of these other artists. Whether I am trying to reveal, especially with her, you know, a truth, you know, behind what she does. I know that I have one image to tell her story. So I think that's what I try to do. With some other, you know, I've worked with a lot of musicians and bands and whatnot, and, a lot of it is just sometimes I'm not telling the truth.
Jefferson Liu:Sometimes I'm sort of hiding a lie. But, ultimately, I think what binds everything together is the the element of storytelling. I love photography in the sense that, like, you know, video and writing and everything you have, you know, you were able to build this story over a long period of time. With photography, it's very different. You know, it is you have milliseconds to tell a story.
Jefferson Liu:And, I think that's what, you know, kinda pulls me into the art form. It's just like, how am I gonna use that time in a way wisely? You know, like, when somebody sees it, what am I communicating to them in that amount of time?
Rob Lee:Yeah. No. Thank you. That is that's great. I, you know, it's it's a few few gyms in there.
Rob Lee:I like that. I like that. And and I don't even say that you said it so long since an interview, but I even say with doing this this podcast, as I was saying before we got got started, you know, and I and I even expand upon it, I don't look at this as a sort of end all profile on you or anyone that I interview. This is a moment in time. This is an archive and sort of that consideration of, you know, it's it's like a couple of questions that I try to ask when I start off.
Rob Lee:What do I find interesting about this person? What am I curious about with this person? And that kind of informs sort of the questions I'm gonna write and sort of the direction I'm trying to take the conversation. And but given it's sort of that that openness that, you know, looking the truth in his art. Right?
Rob Lee:I'm looking for for something in there to, like, the real conversation. But, again, it's letting the guests really cook. You know, it's about them. It's not about how I form a question. You know?
Rob Lee:It's more so, like, what is the answer that they have? What's the insight that they have? And framing it in the best way and trying to keep it as as real as possible. Like, you know, the conversation we'll have, you'll even get my spiel in the the rapid fire portion. I always say, what I said is what I said.
Rob Lee:You know what I mean? So let's not overthink these things when it comes to rapid fire as an example and a distillation of sort of the authenticity is key. So talk a little bit about techniques and tools. Like, you know, I'll say when I'm recording this, I've used so many different stuff. Like, some people are like, oh, I only record in Garage Band.
Rob Lee:I was like, I still use I'm using Zoom right now, or if I'm, you know, in studio with someone, I'm using Audacity, which is a freeware. I have a microphone and, I have a Zoom ProdTrak 8 to give away all of the secrets that I use, and but that's what my preference is, but I am capable of using sort of the road mics and all of these these other things. And, you know, as a person as I I did some teaching last year, and I was going through different ways to record audio and record conversations, and it's like pick the right tool for the job. So, you know, a PodTrack 8, I have 6 inputs. I can have 6 different guests on there, and it could be a really interesting conversation.
Rob Lee:I don't need that if I'm just me and, let's say, you, you know, like, in in on-site. So, you know, it's kinda picking the right tools and picking the right mics and things of that nature. So for you, specifically from photography, you know, what what do you like to shoot with? What do you what is your preference? Talk about about that.
Jefferson Liu:Yeah. Wow. That's I don't even know if that's a complicated question. So I love gear. Like, it's doesn't matter if it's like bikes or, computers or especially now cameras.
Jefferson Liu:I tend to go a little bit overboard when they come to this stuff. Yeah. It's it's, it's not a cheap hobby. But it's it's a combination of, you know, I'd say the latest and greatest, you know, when it comes to camera gear. And then I also have, you know, a pretty extensive collection of old, like, film cameras as well.
Jefferson Liu:So, generally, I I I like nineties film cameras because it was right at the customer. I feel like film cameras were at their pinnacle. Like, they were starting to do really cool stuff with them. They were starting to become more automated in certain, you know, aspects. So I have a good amount of cameras there that I really like.
Jefferson Liu:And then more recently, I sort of, devoted myself to, medium format digital when it comes to, you know, most of my my portraits now. And then there's just something with that camera. You know, a, it's impressive in all specs, but, the color range that it has, its ability to, you know, somebody who shoots people, its ability to capture skin tone is amazing. So like, you know, it's what is it? Trillions of colors that it can capture when it comes to people.
Jefferson Liu:So, for me, that there's something really wonderful about having that latitude and the ability to adjust and whatnot. When it comes to lenses, which, you know, arguably are just as important, I go with a very non typical portrait lens. A lot of people like to shoot, you know, with a fairly, long lens and whatnot. I like to shoot with a wide lens just because it creates just the amount of the right amount of distortion. And you can see this when you like take your iPhone and you go to that 0.5 sort of a lens.
Jefferson Liu:I like that distortion to a certain degree just because there's there's element of weird that you kind of feel, but you don't really see. And I kind of want to hover around that area. I want there to be just a slight bit of a fantastical element without being completely, overdone.
Rob Lee:It's good. It's good. And it's bringing sort of your your own style to it, but also being a a gear person. You said gear. My inner my inner geek was just like, he gets it.
Jefferson Liu:It. It's dangerous. It's dangerous.
Rob Lee:I this I I can't show you the visual right now, but I'll take a picture of it and send it to you afterwards. I have a, I have this metal cabinet that I got from maybe the container store that at one point I was gonna use for something else. I put it together. Now all of my recording gear, all of my field gear is in there on each shelf, and on top of it is all of my Ninja Turtle, like, action figures.
Jefferson Liu:Wow. It is
Rob Lee:a visual, And I'm kinda building out the studio, and I was like, it's nerdy. I'm I'm looking at it now. It's like cables and all types of different interfaces sitting in there, and I go through a la Batman. What do I need at my utility belt this week?
Jefferson Liu:I finally got to the point where it was too much. So, like, now I'm literally, like, in the process of downsizing. You know, I have this, like, one camera I'm gonna, like, focus on. So is that, you know, I'll have, like, a very, sort of selective, group of lenses. I'm trying to, like because it's kinda daunting at times too, you know, like, I'm about to go on a shoot, and I almost have too many options.
Jefferson Liu:Again, a good problem to have, I guess. But, like, now I'm sort of changing my methodology a little bit. But, yeah, like, that closet is it's a mess in there. There's so much stuff in there. Yeah.
Rob Lee:Yeah. I almost wanna I almost want this to go out there into the ether. I just want one of these companies to sponsor me, you cowards. Zoom, hit your boy up and say, look, here, here's all the gear you need because It's literally when a new piece of gear comes out, it's just like, one, I'll make sure I'm knowledgeable on it, and then I was like, oh, I gotta get that now. So it was this, like, little cube that was like, I think it's a f 3.
Rob Lee:It has, like, a 32 float, so it has a really, really decent range on it, and I was like, yeah, I'm gonna get that. It's like a when I got it, it was like $400. It's a little cube, and I was like, I don't even know what this is for. I was like, we'll figure it out. So when I travel, that is the smallest thing.
Rob Lee:Generally, I pride myself on maybe it's a photographer's approach, I suppose, but when I have my little bag, I put all my gear in a fanny pack. I'm able to have, like, the little AirPods, and I can connect that to the Bluetooth on the device, listen to the sound check, and I have lav mics. So I was like, if I need to get around, as as my partner says, she's like, you're doing this utilitarian thing, and I love it. And you think it fit into a fanny pack? And I'm like, yeah.
Rob Lee:I'm like a photographer.
Jefferson Liu:I have I tried it out one case for all of my gear. And, you know, there's multiple cameras in there. But for the most part, if I can't fit in this case, it's that means it's too much. So, yeah, I like that approach.
Rob Lee:Yeah. Mhmm. I I gotta be agile. I go to these cons on occasion as well, and, you know, again, it's it's sort of the authenticity thing where you come in there, like, I don't really like influencers or deem myself as an influencer in that way. So if I go to, like, a con or anything, it's about being able to not get a sound bite, but be able to get something that doesn't feel daunting.
Rob Lee:So if I'm trying to talk to someone really quickly and I can pull out a quick live mic or something like that and it's not a whole production, you're able to get a good conversation without the person feeling like, what media outlet is this? You know? So it doesn't it doesn't feel weird. It doesn't feel like Yeah.
Jefferson Liu:Which, which mic is your go to?
Rob Lee:I have really liked using, the RODE. I think it's like their go live mics, the the pro ones. Yeah. Like wear things? Yeah.
Rob Lee:Yeah. Yeah. I did the, you know, I did my Artscape interviews with those. That's when I first tested it out. And what I use right now, I'm using the Shure, I think, 55 s, the the Elvis mic.
Rob Lee:And this was a birthday present couple years ago when I was bougie ing it out and staying at the Pendry. My partner was like, and here's a microphone for you. I was like, girl, you guys
Jefferson Liu:She's a keeper.
Rob Lee:100%. She's like, yeah, talking to the mic. I was like, yeah. Sure. You got it.
Rob Lee:Does that anything?
Jefferson Liu:Oh, yeah. Definitely. That's that's rad. Yeah. I have it's funny because, like, you know, I, for a while, thought that I would really wanna do video, and I can still, you know, do it.
Jefferson Liu:Audio is the reason why it's a big reason why I don't enjoy shooting video. It's because, like, I always mess that up.
Rob Lee:Yeah.
Jefferson Liu:And, I mean, there's other reasons too, but, like, audio, I'm I'm, like, I'm not good at it. Like, it's just one more thing that, like, I have to test, and it's just for me, it sort of just breaks breaks, I guess, the camel's back.
Rob Lee:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I I think that yeah. We're on sort of opposite sides of it.
Rob Lee:Like, I I'm curious about visual, and my sort of midpoint of having the visual, having video is having snippets of this. Right? But it's not the full production one. It's it's budget 2. Like, I can is really a skinny entrepreneur, if you will.
Rob Lee:I'm able to control and do audio. I can edit the audio. I can run all of the aspects of it without necessarily having another person because people aren't available at times. And I suppose if I was more aware of of audio in that way I mean, of a video in that way, maybe I would do that. But I kinda like doing both of them something something's off with the wiring in my head.
Rob Lee:I was like, I can't do both at the same time. Something's off.
Jefferson Liu:Yeah. Like my ADHD only has, like, certain it has, like, a limit, I think. You know, like, I usually I was you know, I told my girlfriend all the time, like, I'm best when I do 2 things at once. But there's something about adding, like, in my whole process, like, I could shoot stills and I could shoot a video, but if I add audio to it, that's it. It breaks me.
Rob Lee:So move moving into so I wanna hear a bit about sort of the I wanna go backwards, I guess. So creative industry, I am reading that you've been in the creative industry for over 20 years. Right? And, you know, as I touched on earlier, I'm coming up on 16 years as a podcaster, and I think about those early interviews. I was like, I was bad at this and marginally better now.
Rob Lee:So you started off graphic designer. Right? And then creative director. That's you know, I'm curious about you, Tai. It's the way you guys think.
Rob Lee:And, you know, there's brands. I see you talked about, certain car brands. You talked about, like video games, PlayStation and such. How has your, like, journey, you know, shaped your creative approach, like, now, like, with the the different, like, plates that are out there, photography and even some of the other projects that you're working on. How's that experience over those those 2 decades really help shape how you go about work now?
Jefferson Liu:Yeah. I mean, you know, obviously, being a graphic designer, that that certainly helps what I do now. I remember when I was in college, I went to the Corcoran, which is now, I think, GW in DC. And it got to a point where I had to pick my major and and, you know, it was either gonna be photography or graphic design, and I decided I went to go graphic design. I don't really remember why.
Jefferson Liu:It was a long time ago. But, yeah, it it launched a great career. Started out as a very sort of, like, you know, design composition, you know, all color, all that sort of, you know, very sort of tactile, you know, sort of mindset. And then back then, it was you know, I'm gonna date myself. The Internet wasn't big yet.
Jefferson Liu:So, you know, I was doing a lot of, like, print and and and, you know, like, dealing with papers and all this sort of stuff, which was really awesome. I sure missed that a lot. But, you know, you you sort of start to climb the ranks a little bit and you get sort of separated from your craft. Yeah. So you go from, you know, a designer, somebody who's who's very has a lot of attention, who has a a purpose to, like, a manager who sort of, you know, helps guide the purpose of other people.
Jefferson Liu:And then, yeah, then you become a director and, you know, essentially, you're even further removed. And it's been wonderful because, you know, or for ad agencies, working for these clients that we have, you know, it's really taught me what premium really is. You know, like, what a team of 20 to 50 people can really do, which is fascinating because, like, my bar for quality is super high. Because normally, you know, we have 50 people to do a single shoot. And then it's odd now being on my own and shooting just by myself.
Jefferson Liu:If I'm lucky, I'll have one assistant. But for the most part, you know, I like the fact that it's me. But what doesn't change is my eye for, you know, the the the small details, the quality, the bar, and everything. It's still the same. But how do I achieve that now that I'm by myself?
Jefferson Liu:I think that's, kind of one of those thing. And do I want even that level of quality? Like, is it okay that things are a little bit, messier than I'm used to? You know, is it okay that things are less polished? Knowing that, you know, it just came from me and not an army of people.
Jefferson Liu:So I I deal with that a lot, like the the dichotomy involved. You know, I still go to my job and, you know, work with a very talented, great team of people. But then, you know, on the weekends and at night is it's just me by myself again, you know? So I I love the the duality there, but it is a struggle at times.
Rob Lee:Yeah. Yeah. Totally. And I wanna comment on that one piece before I move into this next question. There there is a thing.
Rob Lee:Like, I I'm a I'm an Aquarius, so perfectionist over here. And I I run into this thing where I had to come to this realization. I used to edit all of my podcasts in in this 16 years, right, or soon to be 16 years. I I had a network. It was one distinct podcast coming out per day.
Rob Lee:So I have 5 different podcasts on a on a given week, and I was the editor for all of them. And having all of the other stuff that I was doing, right, and being very fine tooth comb with it, looking for those umms and all of that stuff. And, you know, once I handed it off to my, you know, great editor, my great producer, Daniel Alexis, I, you know, got I I I kept this realization. I was just like and I would give him notes and whatever, the manager thing. Right?
Rob Lee:Sort of give notes and so on, but mostly he gets what I do, so it keeps the conversation filled like a conversation. And with that, I noticed in my approach at the time when I was at my most, like, meticulous and really sort of looking for that perfection, I'm removing the elements, the spaces, and the sort of imperfections that make a conversation feel like a conversation. And I was like, that effort has now moved it away from what it is. So now it's not even what it is. And once I came to that realization, I was just like, oh, you know, unless there's something goofy that's said because, yeah, I like to make myself look good.
Rob Lee:I don't care about the guest. Y'all go look bad, but if I make myself look good in the interview, make me sound good, Daniel. Make everyone else sound good. I'm like, you know, that's that's that's sort of the extent of the editing, but whatever that, you know, cleans up the audio and it feels like this is a cogent conversation and there's some meaning and some intention in it, all the other stuff, I don't care if I say I don't care if I flub a word. I flub lots of words.
Rob Lee:This is why I do my introduction and and post now because I flub it a lot. So, yeah, I I think sort of having a standard and having sort of what you're reaching for and knowing what you're reaching for, that's in my head at least. I call it this sort of approach of pre editing. You know, like, sort of to help with the guest for sake of argument instead of just you come in blindly with no context of what we're even gonna talk about, send the questions over beforehand. It makes for an easier conversation or, you know, chat a little bit beforehand because there's nerves on this side all the time.
Rob Lee:So I can only empathize that there's nerves on the other side. So to quell some of that versus you go into it and you're not even comfortable yet. As soon as you get comfortable, you're 20 minutes into the conversation, and it's been a lot of, you know, flubs and a lot of sort of those those ticks that are in conversation when people are nervous. So, yeah, it's sort of like that's been the approach, and it's all driven by having this this goal of what do I wanna listen to, what do I find interesting, and what conversations do I think are cool.
Jefferson Liu:Yeah. I I agree. There's such a thing as too polished, you know. And I I think I'm learning that and I'm dealing with that a lot. Like, sometimes I'm shooting and I'm just like, what am I'm not making an ad.
Jefferson Liu:You know, it doesn't need like, you know, am I trying to, you know, take a picture or am I making an ad? So, it's it's it's really interesting. You know? Because, like, what is art? I think that's what I'm trying to deal with.
Jefferson Liu:Again, very uncomfortable with calling myself an artist right now. So, like, I think that's the inner dialogue I always have. Like, am I just that guy with a camera, or is there something more to me, you know, as I'm taking these pictures? So, like, you know, what what what is the definition of what I am right now? I think it's, it's something I always deal with.
Jefferson Liu:It's a conflict that I always have.
Rob Lee:Same. Same. Yep. I'm just like a guy with a mic just a jerk with a microphone. Deal of celebrity here.
Rob Lee:That's what I call it. So let's talk a little bit about AQ I mean, AKQA. Right? Yeah. Yeah.
Rob Lee:So I read that the mission is to create a future for our clients. You know? How do you balance sort of this in your role, how do you balance sort of this forward thinking mission, which is a mission that I dig, with your own, like, professional creative work? Like, what excites you most about, like, those projects and those opportunities to work with clients?
Jefferson Liu:Yeah. AKQA is, you know, they were, part of a almost a revolution in advertising where, you know, back in the day, you had your Don Draper, you know, these these very traditional advertising. And they, essentially all they did were print and TV ads, and and that's pretty much all they did. And AKQA and companies like AKQA came along and, redefined advertising. They were born through the Internet.
Jefferson Liu:So, things like CD ROMs and, you know, which I know sounds archaic, but that was, you know, a new sort of avenue of advertising. But websites, banner ads, and then, you know, websites got cooler and more amazing flash technology happened. And AKQA sort of rode that way. So, it was always in our DNA, to be innovative, you know, to kind of be the weirdos in the room because, you know, we weren't traditional advertisers. And I think that helped because, you know, it was always looking we were always looking for a different way of doing things.
Jefferson Liu:We're always trying to be first at something, which was pretty pretty awesome. Like, I think, we were the 1st that, you know, to put a car in an app. And now, you know, cars are in apps all the time. But, like, I remember we did that for Volkswagen. It was, like, unheard of, like, wow.
Jefferson Liu:There's a car in a racing game. And, like, you know, nobody thought to do that first. But I think what was always great about AQQA wasn't the the kind of the hype or the, novelty of being first was enough. It was an agency that really devoted itself and still devotes itself to a level of quality and refinement, and beauty that, you know, sort of is intrinsic. We have offices all around the world.
Jefferson Liu:And the one thing I think that binds us together is this like sort of, you know, camaraderie when it comes to like, we're going to do this and we're going to do it very well. So I think those are the things that, you know, have sort of been, planted into me is this idea of like, you know, if you're gonna do it, you should you should really do it. You know, like, don't bother unless you're gonna do it well. And then also like try to be innovative, you know, like, take a look at the landscape, look what's out there, you know, draw inspiration from it, but try to do your own thing, you know? So, I think that's, that's, you know, I've been there 15 years.
Jefferson Liu:Those are the sort of the spirit that I wanted to sort of carry on from my, I guess, my day job, I just wanna call that, or my career into my my work outside of that.
Rob Lee:Yeah. And and thank you for that because, because I'm definitely be picking your brain after this because, you know, I've recently tried to explore this idea, the that Maya concept, most advanced yet acceptable and all of that that stuff will have you. It's like, oh, this is just this play on this thing that we already know. And, you know, even getting into the spot of building out sort of, like, decks and design and how I'm presenting and pitching what I do because we we don't really like things we like things that feel innovative, and we wanna do these things that are innovative. But a lot of times, folks with money, they just want something that's a little bit to the left, a little bit to the right.
Rob Lee:So in thinking through it, I always do sort of these really high level pitches of what I do, and it's like, alright. How do you bring this down that is digestible for someone who gets it on this level, but may not get it as the way that you're seeing it? So just trying to to understand that because and as I, you know, touched on, which is a little bit of a segue into this next question, but as I touched on before we got started, collaboration. You know, like, collaboration is a is a big part of this. And, you know, you got the intake form.
Rob Lee:It has a few questions in there, and I try to use that for vetting again to see who's interested. Because there there are times where some of these PR people who are trying to get their client over, they'll reach out, yeah, I love to be on your platform. Say, have you listened to it? No at all. It's like, why are you so interested in it?
Rob Lee:And, you know, sort of all of these these these different elements that are in there. So I have these these questions that are sort of required. And because I want to have something that's good for the people listening, good for myself, firstly, like, am I interested in the conversation and, you know, good for the guest and then ultimately good for the person, you know, that's gonna listen to it. So, you know, I want this to be a win win for you and I in this scenario. And then whoever's listening, maybe they're getting something out of it from, you know, hearing pieces of your story or maybe the way that the conversation goes.
Rob Lee:And that's the way that I sort of look at this and, you know, that's one of those things that is baked in, you know, when I think of sort of these these collab this collaborative effort. But it varies. It varies at times. And I think that collaboration, and even now sort of in this spot that I'm in where I've been doing it for a while and teaching as well, there's now mentorship. That's another thing that's that's sitting there.
Rob Lee:And, you know, so to talk a bit about, like, sort of mentorship and collaboration and sort of your your work, macroly speaking.
Jefferson Liu:Yeah. Mentoring is is it's interesting because, like, a lot of us are and they're they're amazing pockets on this area, so I won't, try to, replicate them. But, you know, a lot of us are are really especially when you're a designer or a photographer, an artist of some sort, You're an individual contributor, and we are sort of born from doing things on our own. And then you get thrown into this environment where you have to work with other people that do the same thing as you sometimes, and then oftentimes, they don't. Or you have clients that do other things.
Jefferson Liu:And you're asked to function, you know, in this environment. It's tough. You know? And then what role do you wanna play in that? So, you know, just because you're a great individual contributor and oftentimes people equate that with seniority or, you know, experience or something, and then that's supposed to make them a better manager.
Jefferson Liu:The 2 actually don't relate. You know? So if they're completely different skill sets. Just because you're a great graphic designer or photographer doesn't mean that actually you can lead graphic design or photography. So I think, I learned very much the hard way of being really bad at in the beginning of what it was to be a mentor.
Jefferson Liu:You know, like, you know, selfishly always want to do it yourself, you know, because you feel like you're gonna do it better. You feel like, you know, there's too much on the line to trust another person.
Rob Lee:Sure.
Jefferson Liu:And then when you kind of come to realization is you don't trust yourself as a leader yet. You know? So, that just takes time. It takes practice. Some people are ornately really good at it.
Jefferson Liu:But, you know, now I I consider that I can I can lead? I can I can mentor? I can kind of, you know, pass on information, and I can trust myself to do that in a responsible way, in a way that actually guides another person's career project or whatever. But, yeah, it's it's a tough process, you know. Again, I'm super jealous.
Jefferson Liu:Some people are just naturally great leaders. I, you know, had to to really fumble a lot to to try to become a decent one.
Rob Lee:And when when you were when you were describing it, I immediately thought of for whatever reason, I thought of Jordan, but Michael Jordan, just like you're the coach. You know? Like, you're great as an individual contributor, and you can't just take your talent and insert it into someone else. And we saw that instance. Right?
Rob Lee:You know, since you're you're a DC guy, we saw that instance when he's like, I'll come out of retirement. I'm gonna play for the Wizards. It's like, are you sure about this, bro? Alright. Quote Kwame Brown.
Rob Lee:Alright. You got it. And, you know, it's it's sort of that, and I've tried to get better at that in in doing this. Like this is, for the most part, you know, it's very much driven by me, and I have sort of contributors that are coming in, as I mentioned, with my producer. If I you know, I have an assistant here and there, and I've had several different assistants for smaller pockets of time.
Rob Lee:And I catch myself at times initially when I was like, okay, you're really good at that. Maybe you're not as good as this in this area. It's like, how can I give you more so this fits? Because the only reason that the person may be there working is just like, I can't do all of it. This is why I don't do film.
Rob Lee:You know, I don't do videos. Like, I can't be in front of the camera and behind it. So it's like kinda taking it away, and it's you you really hit the nail on the head is sort of the you don't trust yourself yet. And, you know, I have a lot of confidence in yourself, and that's where it was coming from. And, you know, I have one person I'm working with now who's helping with this newsletter, and we have really good conversations, and I'm able to just flex sort of what my vision is and, you know, my marketing background and the communication side.
Rob Lee:And she's like, yep. Yep. Yep. Because she's a communications person with a marketing background, so it aligns and she gets it, and it works out really well. And that's just the trust thing and having, you know, sort of, you know, like I said, 16 years overall, but the last 5 years doing it in this way with so many different people that I'm interviewing, it's just like, oh, wait a shot of time.
Rob Lee:So, you know, being able to think about things and maybe bring in some folks to kinda help me get this word out there better, it's just like, I can't do all of it. I can't clone myself. You know, I'm good at the things, but it's just like you're less efficient when you're trying to, you know, you're spreading yourself too thin.
Jefferson Liu:Yeah. And it certainly helps when you work with somebody who's super talented too. You know, like, I think that always, you know, makes being a leader a lot, a lot easier and also, you know, it makes you look good for sure.
Rob Lee:Yeah. So here's the last real question. I think this aligns really well. I looked at a, you know, an old interview or maybe q and a that was out there. I believe it was something in there.
Rob Lee:You're not a big fan of sort of that short form social media style advice. So with that in mind, I also don't like the short form. I call it brain rot. Maybe it's my age, showing. But I like that sort of meaningful advice, something that's actionable and things of that nature.
Rob Lee:But what advice, you know, most meaningful professional advice have you gained, you know, over your career that you'd probably wanna share with someone who is interested in photography, who is interested in sort of exploring, you know, other areas or, you know, interested in design. Just a piece of advice that you have either heard or you would just share to someone that's young in the, in the field.
Jefferson Liu:I mean, that's that's a tough question because, like, you know, as much as I say, like, the whole rapid fire short form advice, you know, I, I dislike that because I feel like it's it's easy to write a headline, you know, and it's harder to write, you know, an essay on something. You know, and, and I think it all wraps around being honest with yourself, you know, and, and it's, one of those things where you just got to really know what you want out of your work. And, you know, if it's just to make money, that's fine. You know? Like, that is great.
Jefferson Liu:You know? And then you design your life around doing that. You know? You design your work around doing that. So if you're here to make money, make money, and then just know that that's your purpose.
Jefferson Liu:And there's nothing there's no shame in that. If you're here to make art, then make art, you know, but just know that, like, it's hard to do multiple things at once. Keep it simple. So So if you're really, truly going to be honest with yourself, you have to, and nobody else needs to know about it. You know, like you have to tell yourself, you know, I'm out to do this and everything else is secondary to it.
Jefferson Liu:They're all nice to haves. But set a course for yourself and always, that is your North star. You can redirect at any given point, but make sure you have a North star because in today's day and age, there's so many avenues that you can go. There's so many things that you can do. And I think this is important because like you, when you say you're like, we know our limitations.
Jefferson Liu:We're not trying to be 15 things at once. You know, it's, it's important to dial down to one thing and be really good at that. And if you're somewhat okay at everything else, that's fine. But be really good at one thing.
Rob Lee:Well said. That's thank you. That's that's that's a good spot to close out on. You said you didn't have a short version of it. That was the sync.
Rob Lee:That was good. That was really good, actually. It sounded like something I said earlier today, which is why I'm so happy.
Jefferson Liu:Look, I ran this.
Rob Lee:No. No. You're great. You're great. Hey, guys.
Rob Lee:Rob Lee here, chiming in the middle of the podcast, and we'll be right back to that in a moment. But I wanted to remind you that if you're following me on Instagram, and I hope you are the Truth in His Heart, make sure that you explore the links, link in bio. I know that people always talk about follow me, link in bio, and all of that, but there's some valuable stuff in there such as a survey for my newsletter. You've probably received the newsletter, and if not, definitely sign up for it. There's some interesting stuff there.
Rob Lee:We have profiles of certain guests. We have sort of, you know, curated episodes because we're we're we're around 800 right now, And, it's a lot to go through, and all of them won't be available on every platform all the time. So being able to revisit and go back there, to check out those episodes is important. So definitely check out the survey. Let us know what you think of the newsletter and what you would like to have included in there, and, continue to make this podcast, yours as as well as mine's.
Rob Lee:And, yeah, back to the podcast, Rapid Fire. I now have a 5th Rapid Fire question, so I'm gonna knock these out with you real quick. Alright. I'm gonna go with the one that sounds the most professional because it may have been the the top part of the podcast, but one is, like, sort of a quicker answer. So wide ranging set of skills, what have you and experiences.
Rob Lee:How do you keep pushing yourself creatively? Was was that one thing that you're looking for, that North Star maybe, if you will?
Jefferson Liu:Wow. You know, I think, right now, oddly enough, you know, my career is doing well. I always wanna do great work there. But, like, since we're talking about, my my art, which you wanna call it that, it is essentially finding my style, my voice, like, my I don't wanna say shtick, but, yeah, my shtick, you know, like and it's starting to take shape. I'm starting to do like, you know, have a look and a feel to my work.
Jefferson Liu:But more importantly, I think I'm starting to develop a, ideology behind it. A way of approaching it, a way of thinking about the problem that is before me. And, I think I just I I really wanna develop that. I don't know if it's quite there yet, but, like, it's it's fascinating. It's like for I don't know.
Jefferson Liu:I've been doing design and I've been doing, you know, directing for so long. Like, when I picked up the camera, I felt like a a kid again. You know? It's just like, it was I can create. It's terrifying.
Jefferson Liu:And I can make actually really bad work on my own because I don't have a team to help. And there's something exhilarating about that. You know, this whole looking and searching for things.
Rob Lee:That's good. That's good. I think that's a it's a driver right there. I I feel I vibe. I tap back into it on occasion.
Rob Lee:Each one of these interviews is not like I'm interviewing all visual artists. I'm interviewing all chefs. It's, you know, a glut. It's a lot of different folks, what have you, and each thing takes its different sort of requirements and sort of, different time, you know, requirements and different constraints and sort of different forms of, like, pre editing and all of this different stuff, but it makes it fresh, keeps me curious, and keeps it interesting. And I almost can go in each time like a novice, and it goes back to the thing like an artist book or any of these things of, you know, the reason this works is I don't know what the hell I'm doing.
Rob Lee:So I can always do it new and fresh. Yep. This this one is the actually, I'm gonna save the trolley one for a lot. So creatively for PlayStation, what was one of your favorite games growing up?
Jefferson Liu:Oh, wow. There's so many. I love so, you know, I I grew up in the, Nintendo Sega Genesis era. So, I think about Metroid a lot because it was so weird. You know, like for back then it was such a weird, like, the character, the the hero was kind of weird and, like, all the different, like, enemies were weird.
Jefferson Liu:The quest was kind of odd. I always come back to, like, how creative we were as kids. Because if you think about Super Mario, that was, like, what, 20 pixels? And you had to imagine what those 20 pixels like, that's a guy with a sword and a shield and a hat and a both you know, it's like and now we have, like, you know, all this amazing amazing CG and everything like that, and we're like, oh, that looks great. You know?
Jefferson Liu:And, like, you know, we're we'll challenge our our our, creativity or our vision for it anymore. You know? So like, I think about me as a kid looking at like, you know, just a few pixels and it all made sense back then. But like, you know, now I, you know, if I see bad CG, it's like really offensive for some reason.
Rob Lee:Oh, how dare you? Why would you even dare you?
Jefferson Liu:I know. Yeah.
Rob Lee:I I remember this game. We we had the, we had the Super Nintendo back in the day and, like, standard Nintendo. And I remember on the standard Nintendo back in the projects in the early nineties, we we had like that I think we had like you you blow the, you know, the car, and there was one. I was a fat kid growing up. I was always tall, always big, but still a fat kid, and we had whatever this track and field game was with the floor pad, and my brother, my cousins, all much more athletic than me, they would smoke me on it, and I had thin disbelief.
Rob Lee:I was like, this is not even, you know, what I lost. I lost that race.
Jefferson Liu:Yeah. I remember, like, just the blisters I would get from because, you know, like, now, if you look at Xbox PlayStation controller, they're so ergonomic. They're, like, sleek. Like, the, old Nintendo controller was just a rectangle and, like, it was not comfortable, but, like, I don't know. We played the hell out of it.
Rob Lee:100%. What is your most recent Spotify liked song? This is gonna be pretentious. I'll give you a moment to think about it. This is gonna be pretentious and maybe a little goofy, but it will age me.
Rob Lee:I heard in a in a, in a video yesterday or some bodybuilding thing, and I went on Instagram, and it was the theme music from Conan to destroyer.
Jefferson Liu:I was
Rob Lee:like, man, this is orchestral. I was like, I'm putting this on it. That's the my most light. That's at the top of my light list. And then I went down a rabbit hole.
Rob Lee:The guy that did the score also did the RoboCop score and Starship Troopers score. I was like, oh, I love this dude. This guy is great.
Jefferson Liu:Wow. I have to look. I didn't realize it was the same guy.
Rob Lee:Oh, yes.
Jefferson Liu:But Conan was awesome. For me, I think it's it's interesting. There's, you know, obviously, a lot of new music out there. But, lately, and I think it's because my girlfriend had never heard of The Cure. And I, you know, would just come, I love The Cure and, you know, would come on, you know, pretty frequently.
Jefferson Liu:And she like it was consistent. She would always liked the cure and whatever came on. And, You know, I, it was really kind of exciting to introduce her to, you know, some of my favorite, you know, emo angsty, you know, gothi, music from back in the day. And, what's great is they're actually coming out with a new album now and it's so far they have 2 singles and they sound amazing. So I have to say I'm fairly excited.
Jefferson Liu:So yeah, the cure right now.
Rob Lee:I dig it. You know, gather your blouses. Let's let's do it. Let's just make it happen. Where's the eyeliner?
Rob Lee:Let's let's do it. Yeah.
Jefferson Liu:Yeah. I look forward to my makeup, but, you know, I'll do it.
Rob Lee:So so here's, the penultimate one, if you will. You know, busy week you've been touching on kind of battling the flu. Thank you for being a trooper, for coming on to this pod. What is a go to meal when you have one of those, like, busy weeks? Like, you need something it needs it needs to be good.
Rob Lee:Not necessarily healthy per se, but it just needs to be good. It's like, I need something to hit. I need a comfort meal. What's that meal for you?
Jefferson Liu:Oh, man. I'm easy. Like, it it this stems all the way back to my childhood. Popeyes. You get it?
Jefferson Liu:Yeah. Yeah. It's it's, you know, dark meat, spicy, mashed potatoes. Like, that is always gonna be a and I don't wanna say guilty pleasure. I I don't even have to feel that guilty about it, but, yeah, I love pot wise.
Rob Lee:Okay. You know, just make sure you you kinda, you know, get enough, you know, have a bev with you when you're having those biscuits, because I I hear that they're dangerous. I hear that they're dangerous.
Jefferson Liu:I actually don't like their biscuits. Really? Yeah. This is I I'm gonna get a lot of hate mail for this, but, like, I don't I I stay away from their biscuits.
Rob Lee:Okay. You know? You know, I was I was in New Orleans years ago, and I remember someone popped over to me, and they were like, are y'all Popeyes like ours? And I'd had their red beans and rice at their Popeyes. I was like, it is not.
Rob Lee:The ours is much better. Y'all actually cooked this. This was a thing that is there and it's good, but it's it's not in comparison to a Popeyes in New Orleans.
Jefferson Liu:Yeah. Oh, I bet. God would love it. Because they are they still in New Orleans? Like, I know they moved out, like, after the the big hurricane.
Jefferson Liu:Wonder where their home office is now. Anyways, sorry. I digress.
Rob Lee:Here here's the last one, and this might be the trolley one. What is your favorite carrot related dish?
Jefferson Liu:Oh, wow. So, Yeah. I I I very much dislike carrots. It's it's if you are a friend of mine or even any man of mine, you probably know that. I'm trying really hard.
Jefferson Liu:So, like, over the past 10 or so years, I've been really trying to face that that because there's no reason why actually anyone should hate carrots. But, you know, I I am okay with carrots when they have been just roasted, like, beyond, like, recognition. Like, I make a curry. I put it in there, but I have to let it cook for at least a few hours. Carrot cake is somewhat okay.
Jefferson Liu:Okay.
Rob Lee:So the
Jefferson Liu:chunks are too big. It's it's it's not gonna work. But for the most part, anybody who just sits there and eats raw carrots, oh, man. That's I can't I can't yeah. I can't even watch somebody do that.
Rob Lee:I feel the same way about celery. I was just like, why is this in the trinity? Why why is this here?
Jefferson Liu:Yeah. Celery, I can I can I can it's it's only carrots for some reason? And everyone's like, it doesn't taste like anything or it's sweet. I'm like, it's I don't like it.
Rob Lee:Actually, it's in the mirepoix, not in the trinity. I was wrong about that. Yeah. Yeah. I I I found that in the old interview, and I was like, I'm definitely gonna ask them about carrots.
Rob Lee:Yeah. Yeah.
Jefferson Liu:What is your is it celery? Is that's the that's the thing?
Rob Lee:It's beets. I I can't I can't fade beets. I had, it was I went to a birthday party last weekend and get a a gluten free chef. And, she made a birthday cake for the the person whose birthday it was, and it was very good, very moist. And she was like, oh, yeah.
Rob Lee:It's vegan. And it's, this and and so on, and it's gluten free. And I was like, what'd you use to get it some moist? She was like, oh, it's a lot of beets in there, and
Jefferson Liu:I was just like, betrayal. But
Rob Lee:It but it worked. Yeah. Tasty. Just I didn't know what was in there because I would have threw it into we were in Fells Point, so I would just threw it into the water. A fish can have it or whatever lives in there.
Rob Lee:I don't care. I don't care. So, yeah, that's that. And as also the sort of podcast, so you're off the hot seat, then we're done. We're wrapped.
Rob Lee:Sweet. So there's 2 things I wanna do as we wrap up here. 1, I wanna thank you for coming on and spending some time with me enduring the podcast. This was a lot of fun. It was a lot of, you know, great great chatter, great conversation, great gems.
Rob Lee:And, 2, I wanna invite and encourage you to share with the listeners where they can follow you on social media, website, anything that you wanna plug in these final moments. The floor is yours.
Jefferson Liu:Nice. Well, I'm easy to find. Instagram is probably the best way to keep up with, like, my work and whatnot. My handle is at yes, Jefferson. No space, anything like that.
Jefferson Liu:So, yeah. Come find me, DM me, talk to me. I am always up for a great conversation.
Rob Lee:And there you have it, folks. I wanna again thank Jefferson Liu for coming on to the podcast and sharing a bit of his journey, his background with us and or Jefferson Liu. I'm Rob Lee saying that there's art, culture and community in and around your neck of the woods. You've just got to look for it.
