Exploring 'The Culture' with Dr. Asma Naeem, Director at the Baltimore Museum of Art

Welcome to The Truth in Us Art. I am your host, Rob Lee. And today, I'm delighted to be in conversation with my next guest. They are the director at the Baltimore Museum of Art and the 1st person of color to lead the museum. Please welcome doctor Asma Naeem.

Welcome to the podcast.

Thank you, Rob. It's such a pleasure to be with you today.

It's a pleasure to have you on. It's it's it's always it's always great. I gotta I gotta say this because, you know, I've been wearing glasses, right, since I was 3. So when I'm talking to another person wearing glasses for the interview, it's like we both dress up like this. It's like that.

You know?

Oh my goodness. I have to tell you, I only became a glasses wearer recently. It's something about getting older, I guess, that I'm getting used to. So I can I can only imagine what your life has been like wearing glasses since you were little? Because they get you know, you constantly have to clean them, and then when you go outside and the weather is funky, they get cloudy.

So I'm new to this whole thing, but I'm digging it so far.

Yes. And one one of the things that that came up, as we get into this, like, hot glasses talk, I I remember, like, in the beginning of sort of the pandemic and everything, you're wearing a mask, and you have that other element of I can't see anything because of the fog. And, and I I was talking with a guy who was recently in New Orleans, and we're talking a little bit about, you you came on. I was talking with, just just somebody in a po boy shop, which still feels really gimmicky. Right?

And Mhmm. We were talking about having giant heads, and I was like, it's hard to buy glasses, bro. And he's like, I know. Right? So we're just bonding over that eating po boys.

So I don't know. Realize. So before we get into before we get into the the main chunk of, in the main of today's conversation, I I wanna, like, you know, open it up to, you know, give you the space to share a bit of your background and maybe some of those, like, early experiences with art and, you know, maybe a vivid memory that pops up as it relates to art and creativity. I know there's a lot there, and I'm definitely open to, like, cutting that down into segments, but I wanna at least start off there.

Sure. I'll start with the simple stuff, Rob. My my parents are from India, but they migrate to Pakistan. I was born in Karachi, Pakistan. I migrated here with my parents in 1971.

I was 2 years old. I came straight to Baltimore City. My mom, had a job in the city. Yep. And we lived here for a number of years and then eventually moved out to Towson, where I grew up in Campus Hills behind Goucher College.

And I went to public schools, graduated from Lockraven, high school. And I would say that it was in high school where I started to really, see the possibilities that being an artist could offer. I was one of those students who would have my artworks displayed in in my art classes and at other places. I loved photography. I loved drawing.

I had a sketchbook that I still have to this day where I would just draw hands over and over again. I also loved just looking. I loved looking at things, and I loved seeing patterns or thinking about color. I completely did my bedroom with, like, wallpaper and fabrics and lamps and rugs. So I love interior design.

I love thinking about the ways that textures and patterns and colors come together and what they say about you. And I also loved fashion when I was very young. I was a subscriber to Vogue. I was totally into all of the runway shows and, couldn't afford any anything, obviously, but just like to look. And for a while, for the clothes that we wore, in our Pakistani Indo Pakistani community, I was designing some of those, just going to Joanne Fabrics and buying some, you know, special, like, fake silks, or if or what have you, and and having my mom sew them up.

So, you know, there's been, I would say, this multi approach to creativity and art ever since I was little, and I love music. I've always loved music. I cannot sing, worth my weight. I don't play an instrument. I started playing the drums when I was little, but then I gave up on that because I had to carry the entire drum set.

Walking home, I didn't get a practice pad. The drum set was bigger than me, so I quit the drums. So yeah. Anyway, as you can tell, I like a lot of different kinds of arts and art making, and I was never really that great at any of them. And so as most art historians and curators will tell you, they're failed artists.

I am a total failed artist.

Thank you. That's that's a that's a great introduction. So I I I like that you definitely keyed in on all the sort of, like you know, they have, like, the what's the secret word when you're going into it? What's the passcode or what have you? You did the Baltimore thing.

You're like, I went to this high school. That is the thing. That's the thing, apparently. You know?

That is the thing. Hey. That is the thing. And it's totally. Totally.

That's, like, the first question. It it just situates you, and then people know where to put you. You know? It's

great. So I read that you you practice law for for a while, before switching careers and, finishing your PhD in American art. What was the sort of prompting or the the the what led up to that decision to to switch paths?

Well, I guess, you know, I should I should say that for people who are coming from the subcontinent, there's this general idea that you're supposed to be one of 3 professions. And it's stereotypical. It's not right, but it does kind of exist on some kind of cellular level in all of our minds, growing up as Indian or Pakistani, kids. And the 3 professions are being a doctor, an engineer, or a lawyer. And I would say that, you know, artistic, occupations weren't considered an option because you you you know, most of us were coming from families that were lower class or middle class, and were looking for a way up and out.

And, that that was a guaranteed successful path, one of those three professions. So, even though I loved art, even though I loved writing and reading and and these kinds of things, it became quickly apparent. And my mom said to me, by the way my mom is a physician. She said, well, we we knew you weren't gonna go into medicine because you told you hated the sight of blood. And I'm like, I don't remember that mom, but okay.

So so anyway, I went to Johns Hopkins University, which is known for its pre med med program. Right? But I didn't major in the sciences. I majored first in English and then switched to political science. I had been always super interested in justice and fairness and and the politics.

I would read over my uncle's shoulder who would come and visit us. He would always have a copy of the, what was it, the International Heritage Tribune, which was, like, the international version of the New York Times. And he and I would I just remember how he would circle certain things, and then he would tell me certain history. So, anyway, I ended up majoring in political science, which really wasn't my passion because I took an art history class as kind of an elective, I think, in my sophomore year and just completely fell head over heels in love. I just loved how there was somebody in front of me lecturing about looking at something and talking out the ways that certain colors and shapes and, you know, themes were being, discussed, and and more importantly, how that reflected a moment in time in a in a country's history or in that artist's personal life.

I thought that was fascinating. So I ended up double majoring Wow. In art history and political science, and I was like really interested in pursuing an art historical career, but none of my family had that in their trajectory. So I didn't know what to do with it. I had some professors at Hopkins who were really encouraging, Yvonne Labois, who was from France, and then, Charles Dempsey.

But I didn't know what to make of it. And I did have an aunt who was a lawyer in Singapore, but she was a lawyer for, in terms of intellectual property. And so she would help to prosecute the people who would be creating fake fake Louis Vuitton, fake Guccis, a lot of which was coming out of China. So being in Singapore was perfect. I went to work for her, for about a year before I went to law school, and it seemed like a good option in terms of just having a set career path.

But my 1st year summer, those of your listeners who know about law school know that your 1st year summer job is kind of important. My 1st year summer job was back in Baltimore City. I went to Temple Law School in Philadelphia, by the way. Go, Temple. And, when I was back here for my summer job at, in Baltimore, I worked as a public servant.

I worked in the Baltimore City State's Attorney's office in the homicide division.

Oh, god.

I wanted to help victims of crime. I wanted to, you know, help to achieve justice or to heal, if you will. Yeah. That was my naive thinking at the time. And I went on to finish law school.

And early on in my 3rd year, I had the good fortune of getting a job at the Manhattan District Attorney's Office. So I started working there in 95, worked there for about 4 years. The mayor at the time was Rudy Giuliani. The approach to crime at that time was the broken windows approach with which meant that you prosecuted kind of, violations that weren't even misdemeanors, but below misdemeanors. Because if you saw somebody vandalizing property, that would lead to a kind of disengagement with society that would permeate and rise up to such things as grand larceny, for example.

So, I started doing those kinds of, prosecutions and ended up focusing on, domestic violence, again, trying to heal and help victims. But it was exhausting, and in my spare time, I was going to museums and reading about art and really feeling like this wasn't the job for me because I started to see the complexities of the criminal justice system. I started to see that my I had really idealized what a lawyer does and what a criminal prosecutor does, and I didn't have it in me. And so I would be in the courtroom trying to fight back tears. And so I fell in love with with a guy who I met in New York City.

We, ended up getting married. And when we moved back down to Maryland, I started taking night classes in, art at American. And I eventually went full time, got my master's at American, got my PhD at Maryland, University of Maryland, while still working, as a lawyer because we started to have kids at that point, and he went back to school too. So it was really challenging, I think, to do that switch. And many people all all, you know, will say to me, I don't understand what led you to switch.

And I guess for me, I'm one of those people who I can't fake it. You know? I I can't be in a job and just, you know, pretend that I'm not pretend, but I can't be in a job and and, you know, do the work and then come home. I need to feel connected to it. I need to feel the passion for it.

I need to feel, more importantly, that, like, I'm making a difference. Yeah. And I I think that I found a way to make a difference by moving into art history and and in the museum world.

Wow. Thank you. Wow. I I I feel the same way in terms of, you know, taking what you're doing. Like, I had this conversation with the curator a little while ago, and we were talking about sort of the artist lifestyle.

And I like literally this morning, I woke up at 3 a. M. And I was like, I need to write down some questions for an interview. So it doesn't really turn off. It's always just something that's of interest.

So always having a notepad. So always having just, I got an idea. Who do I wanna talk to? It's there's no, like, 9 to 5 sort of thing, and it's, like, passion that that drives it. And almost similarly, you know, I was leaving out of, like, high school city, you know, and leaving out of high school and and trying to figure out, like, what I wanted to do.

I was, you know, know, I was one of those kids that would have the double bag with the sodas in them, like, undercutting the school cafeteria or whatever, and I'm like, okay. Do I wanna be an entrepreneur? Do I wanna go into business? And

when I

was a kid, I was super young. I was always drawing. I wanted to be a comic book artist. And Really? Yeah.

That was that was what I so the failed artist thing is definitely sitting there, and and it just was you know, the conversations at home was, like, there's there's no money in that. And so choosing something that felt safer doing business. So got the degree, finished that up, and took a lot of extra marketing classes to try to show off some of the creative acumen. And, ultimately, I I graduated and just did a job, for a couple of years. And after, like, 2 years, I was burnt out.

And that's when I started podcasting. I've been podcasting for 14 years. And so it's been almost like this sort of dual lifestyle where the day job is almost I'm looking at the day job as the funder for me.

My goodness, Rob. You must be like a like a just like this person whose mind never shuts off.

And I have a data job too, so that's the thing that's so

I got I'm exhausted just thinking about it.

It's always going. It's like that hamster wheel. The hamster is in really good shape. So in in that that vein of of jobs, what was your your first quote, unquote art job?

Oh, you know what my first quote, unquote art job was? So there's this deal that when you're getting, when you're at certain schools, when you're getting a master's and you're enrolled full time, they will they will pay for your degree, and they will give you, like, an opportunity to either work as a teaching assistant or work in the department. So my first art job was at American University sitting in their slide labs. And I don't know if your listeners know what I'm talking about, but back in the day, art history classes had a slide projector, and every work of art was on a slide, you know, a little piece of of negative, that, had a casing that you would pop into the slide projector, and you would click a button. It would make this very satisfying noise as it would click to the next slide.

But so I was in the slide library at American University's art history department, kind of, like, reviewing all of the slides to make sure they were in the right condition. And sometimes even, you know, being all technologically sophisticated and digitizing these slides so that as we moved into, you know, the computer era, which was it was just, like, 2,002, 2003. That's what I was doing. So it was really not glamorous at all.

See and that's the funny thing about it. I like to like to start off there. What was the sort of first leg entrance, and then now, like, where are we at now? So let's let's Yeah. Let's talk about the current role or have you.

And, you know, in there, if you could, answer this within sort of, like, your your your your piece about, like, the current role that you're in. What does it mean to be, you know, the museum's first person of color to, like, to, like, lead it, lead Baltimore's preeminent, like, art museum? And it's more than 100 year 109 year history. Right?

Oh my god, Rob. You even saying it, but I think it's it's your beautiful voice and the way that you emphasize certain things. It's very moving to hear, very powerful to hear. I feel a great sense of responsibility, to all of my, fellow brothers and sisters, everybody who's out there who has felt marginalized, who has felt invisible, who feels like this museum is not for them, I feel like it is my duty to make them feel welcome. Museums for too long, have been the product of those in power and, those who have had wealth, who are primarily white white men.

And the ways in which museums have been a way to kind of announce a kind of exceptionalism or a kind of supremacy, whether it's just, you know, we have the best collection in all of Maryland as the Baltimore Museum of Art, or we are, you know, as good as our counterparts in Europe in terms of the art that we have. That kind of desire to show excellence is a little bit, I think being I I shouldn't say a little bit, but it's being questioned greatly right now. And and what is the true goal of creating a museum, of having a museum exist? And so the way I see it as being somebody who comes from, a background that isn't normally represented in art history, and that who and, you know, I will also say this, who's worked in public service and in urban communities for all of my life. I feel a huge sense of debt to what I've learned along the way, and, I gotta pay it back.

You know? So there is a way, I think, that we can do the work that we've been doing. We can continue to show artistic excellence. We can continue to talk about the most gorgeous, works, that we have from the folks like the Cone sisters, meaning Henri Matisse and many others. At the same time, we have so many other stories we need to be telling.

There's so many artists who've been toiling away in you know, without any recognition that it's time.

That's that's great. That's that's wonderful and definitely echoes back to one of the things you touched on earlier and one of the things that came up many times in the research. Can you know, little Internet stalking or research? This the fairness Fairness. You know?

That's that's that's important. That's big, and it's you know, I'm I'm always, like, on my soapbox. It makes me a lot taller. I'm 6 4 of context. Right?

So I'm always on top of the soapbox, so I look even larger, and it's just like, where's the fairness? Why can't these people get an opportunity? Why can't these people? And it it's great to hear that that's just at the forefront for you, and the role that you're in is just great to hear.

Oh my goodness. That makes me feel so happy that you, that you get that. And I'm not saying that other people don't get fairness, but to me, it it activates me on every single level throughout my day. I'm just constantly looking at things and thinking, well, that person wasn't treated fairly. You know?

So I'm so glad that you bring that up because that notion may seem like it isn't germane to what we're talking about, but it's absolutely relevant.

So I I gotta ask. Let's talk about the culture a little bit.

Let's talk about the culture.

Hip

hop Let's talk about the culture. So what

what were some of the things that that surprised you? Well, one, let let me step back a little bit. For those who are undeped and uninitiated, could you describe the culture, hip hop and contemporary art in the 21st century, and maybe some of the things that surprised you in in co curating, the culture.

Sure thing. Sure thing. So we have, here at the Baltimore Museum of Art, an exhibition that's open, that's called the culture, hip hop, and contemporary art in the 21st century. And, basically, what it's looking at is not the history of hip hop, and not the history of contemporary art, but the intersection of hip hop and contemporary art, so where the 2 meet in the most unexpected and sometimes expected ways. And and since 21st century, so from 2000 to now, the the show is really grounded in the fact that this is the 50th anniversary of hip hop.

So 1973, you know, in the Bronx, DJ Kool Herc, and his sister Cindy, who are of Jamaican descent, decided to have a back to school party, and the the four pillars of hip hop were born. Boom. You know? You had an emcee. You had a DJ.

You had break dancing and graffiti, and it really became this jubilant and radical form of expression in the early seventies throughout New York City that started to just have these tentacles that have now become global and have become a multibillion dollar, multi multibillion dollar enterprise in so many aspects of our lives that we don't even recognize. I'm talking it's permeated fast food. It's permeated street streetwear, but it's permeated haute couture, high fashion. It's permeated the art world. It's permeated, you know, how how we think about music and how we think about representation and how we think about identity.

It's become a minor. It's, now a minor field of study at Howard University. The Peabody Conservatory of Music, you know, one of the best conservatories in the country, has appointed its 1st professor of hip hop, Wendell Patrick. This has become a phenomenon unlike any other musical genre, I would say. And so what we were trying to do in this exhibition is consider the ways in which whether you know hip hop or whether you don't know hip hop, you can see the permutations of the of the of the 4 pillars of the themes that hip hop stars have championed in contemporary visual art, and we extended it to beyond contemporary visual art to include fashion, to include such things like grills and wigs, and to include, record covers.

So there's there's this incredible complicated rich material culture of hip hop that you'll see in the exhibition along with the fine art, the paintings, the videos, the sculpture, and you'll also be grounded in that moment in 1973 where you'll understand how this came to be and see some of that imagery and feel that aesthetic. But then you'll quickly move into 2000 to now and see see the exhibition's, thesis. So the things that surprised me, and I should say I cocurated this with 3 other women. Gamiaan Guillot is our chief education here in Baltimore at the Museum of Art, and then we cocurated with 2 women at the Saint Louis Art Museum, which I've never been to Saint Louis. I don't know if you have, Rob.

Have you?

I have not.

I haven't either, but I I cannot believe I how many people have come up to me and said, St. Louis and Baltimore are truly, you know, connected. There are similar issues. There's similar demographics. There's similar cultural vibrancies.

And so the Saint Louis Art Museum, 2 curators, there were Hannah Klem and Andrea. And together, we created something that I'm super proud of. Surprising me was the ways in which we found not just the older artists who are, you know, in my age group, like, around 50, who grew up with hip hop and have, you know, like the Mark Bradfords, like the Julie Morettus, like, incredible visual artists who command, you know, 1,000,000 of dollars in the art market when their works go on sale. It's not just those folks who are influenced by hip hop, but it's really, really young artists. I'm talking, like, 23, 19.

And they they don't just, you know, talk about Meek Mill or Kendrick or, you know, Lil Kim. I'm I'm sorry. Or somebody like Cardi b. They talk about, you know, the the the legends, the OGs, and they understand that history. And so I guess what started to emerge very quickly is that we talk about the canon, you know, the canon of western art, what is considered, you know, the most excellent and most inspiring of of western art.

So you talk about and I'm not talking about the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles when I say these names, but I just like to say that. I'm not okay. We talk about Raphael, Michelangelo, Titian. Right, Leonardo? But that's the canon of western art that you think about and you imagine in your head when you think of art and the excellence of art history.

What was surprising to us as we began this research at you know, for many years is that there's a canon of hip hop that has shaped so many kinds of makers and creatives for decades that a lot of folks don't recognize. And so in my essay in in the catalog, I take the video, for example, Apeshit by the Carters, jay z and Beyonce's in the Louvre, how they're in front of the Mona Lisa, and even the clothes and the jewels that they're wearing, that's referencing 50 years of hip hop. That's referencing Dapper Dan. That's referencing Lisa Hilton and June Ambrose. That's referencing these stylists

Yeah.

Who have been, since back in the day, creating, outfits that no, you know, fashion house would support at the time. So they just made they just made do with what they had on hand. And now you have these powerful billionaires, the most famous people in the world, continuing to honor them and give you know, continue to giving, them credit for where they are in the world today. That's a canon

Yes. It is.

Of of making. And so that was surprising.

Wow. That is that's that's amazing. That is amazing. And yeah. I mean, that that video definitely, like, sticks out and showing sort of that that connectivity that's there.

And, like, it it's almost as if this imagery is not supposed to be there, but it's like, but it is, and it should be.

Oh my god, Rob. I'm so glad you said that. I had another podcast where this, the the journalist was asking a similar question. Like, it's so it's so beautiful to watch that video. It's just so lush and, moving, but at the same time, there's something jarring, you know, and that's purposeful on their part.

It's to say that, you know, no. We're not supposed to be here, but we're here, and we're we're we're gonna stay here.

100%. So when it comes to so let me let me let me get some of the numbers here right. So what was the sort of, like, from the infancy standpoint of, like, we're we're absolutely gonna have this. Obviously, we know that, you know, 50th anniversary. So, you know, was it like, alright.

We know a year out, we know 2 years out, or what have you, that this is at least a consideration for we're gonna do the culture, we're gonna do it may have been named something else beforehand, what have you. We're going to do this. And, even the the number of, what, 90 works is what what I see in here. So a little bit about that and maybe the curatorial process.

Sure. Sure thing. So, basically, what the curatorial process is a lot of research, a lot of just grabbing whatever you see that you think fits the theme that you've created in a very loose way in your head, and starting to organize it into one place, into into you know, I think it's you know, you talk about getting up at 3 AM or 4 AM, whatever you said about, you know, and then writing down your notes. We had to start putting it down somewhere. And for us, the putting down is images and artists and just kind of, essays, because there's so much beautiful writing on hip hop.

You know? And I have to give a call out, a shout out to Greg Tate, who was an incredible inspiration for us and whose writing shaped, a lot of what we were thinking and who he was part of our advisory committee, from the very beginning, and he passed away last year, too early, too early. And so the entire catalog is dedicated to Greg Tate and the incredible work he's done. But so I would say that the process is is starting to put everything down, organizing the images, and then starting to read so that you understand how scholars have assessed the the history of hip hop and what has been important to them as key themes that are emerging in hip hop. With that, you then kind of have this, you know, a ton of meetings where you're discussing each of these potential artworks, whether they are truly advancing your theme.

And the theme is the intersection of hip hop and contemporary art. And so, you know, we would have some folks in our advisory committee say, well, you know what? You need to have Eric b and Rakim in the exhibition. And I'm like, okay. I love them, but they have nothing to do with contemporary art.

So it was those kinds of, you know, tough calls about editing. You know, editing is one of the most underrated aspects of creativity, I think. Because you can have a whole bunch of ideas, but then you got to make the tough call of what stays in and what needs to go away. It's not furthering your message. So that editing process took a very long time.

We also started to create themes for the exhibition. There's 6 themes that, you'll see when you walk through the culture, at the BMA. So those themes are language, brand, pose Yeah. Ascension, because there's a lot of language in hip hop lyrics, in hip hop personalities, and in contemporary art that is looking at hip hop about mortality. And I could not I may not be here tomorrow.

Who's gonna remember me? Who's gonna sing my songs? Who's gonna, you know, who's gonna take care of my baby? So that idea of ascension was really important. Tribute is another theme and pose.

So 6 themes, organizing into those 6 themes, and then taking a really hard look at all of the art that we had, putting it into those 6 themes, and then further distilling, further refining. And then once you have the objects in the space, you usually have created, like, a premap, you know, in a computer program to see what will hang where. I gotta tell you a lot of that falls apart once you're in the space and you're actually looking at the object, and you're like, oh my god. This painting is only, you know, 3 feet by 2 feet. But when you're in front of it, it feels like it's 5 feet by 10 feet, and I I gotta give it space.

So you gotta take this off on this side and this so, anyway, those kinds of changes in the gallery, you know, 3 weeks before the show is opening, though the yes. Installation is a very intensive process, and you also have to work with artists in the most sensitive and, open way, which is they're the artists. They're the ones who have gifted us with this glorious thing that we now have the privilege to show. They know what is right for that artwork. So I may want to put it in the corner at kind of a 45 degree angle, but they will come in and say, no.

No. This has to actually be facing at a straight angle, and I'll tell you the reasons why. So it's a it's a multi collaborative process, multilevel process, and this took about, I would say, almost 4 years from beginning to end. I started the work over 10 years ago because I've always loved hip hop. I've grown up with hip hop.

It's part of my DNA. And once I started working and thinking as an art historian, I just immediately started to see these things that were like, okay. I need to write that down because that's that's a reference to Tupac. Yeah. That's a reference to Tupac.

You know? So that that's I would say, the real joy of this is seeing all of my my crazy musings over the years, I guess, finally being actualized.

That's that's great. It's it's it's great when we have, like, those things. It's like I wrote this down. It's like, maybe you have that question mark next to it, and then something that question mark turns into an underline, and then it's bold. It's like, I gotta do this.

This has gotta happen. You

totally get it. Absolutely.

So I I got this one last real question, and and I like I said earlier, you know, there is a mix. It's like real questions, and then it's like, we're gonna go off the rails a little bit. So, you know, throughout the course of this this conversation and and sharing, like, you know, history and and background, you know, you've been working to dissolve, like, old museum conventions that feel rarefied. Right? That's it's just like, I'm not supposed to be here.

You know, that's kind of what it is. But I'm always going. I was like, I'm gonna take up space. Whether it's demystifying the, National Portrait Gallery and creating space for the work of underrepresented artists and and so on, many many things that I've seen. I even saw Tupac reference in there somewhere.

What are

your your goals and and dreams for the future, and how do we get there? You know, just with with the BMA, but how do we get there?

One goal for me would be to make people not afraid of art. I want people to think that I want people to feel comfortable with looking at art with coming into a museum. I want people to know that you don't have to know a thing about art to appreciate art. I want to demystify art and art history, if you will. I want people to know that you belong here, and you are welcome here no matter what you look like, what you believe in, who you love, there is so much divisiveness in our world right now, and I'm not even on social media, Rob.

I don't I I if I start to look at it, my head starts to hurt because of the pain that I see that so many folks are going through, with the with the responses and the and the DMs, if you will. And so I wanna create a place of refuge, contemplation of reflection where you feel protected and safe, no matter no matter what your salary is and no matter what you what you think about art. I wanna have the folks who don't necessarily like like art, or I wanna have the folks who don't necessarily, like hip hop in the in the hip hop show. To me, there's beauty in having the the dissonances, the the difference of opinion existing respectfully, but existing with one another. I think that there is a great advantage and a great sense of growth that we could all have if we took some time to listen to folks with different opinions than us.

So I know this sounds like how does a museum become that space, but I believe the museum is the only space left, frankly, where we can have these kinds of conversations because it's certainly not happening in in, our legislative, buildings. And it's not happening, I think, in a respectful way in journalism as much as it could be. Yeah. I think we're all playing, you know, I think we're all following folks who are kind of playing our own tune that we wanna hear, and we're in an echo chamber. So I hope that I hope that one day we can get there.

And I know that there's so many incredible staff here that believe in this vision. So I'm confident we will get there.

Thank you. That's that's great. And you're you're you know, I'd rather hear the full thing, you know, someone that disagrees you know, I'd rather hear the full thing, you know, someone that disagrees with me or someone I have maybe a difference in opinion. And it's like, oh, okay, maybe I get can learn something and have a better understanding versus somehow they're cut off, canceled, whatever the terminology might be. And then now they feel like they're a martyr for whatever their cause is and and people that are behind it.

It's like, I wanna hear the full thing so I can understand it and then respond. In in many ways, that's one of the reasons behind this podcast. You know, someone said something that I thought was stupid, and I was like, I'm gonna disprove it through interviews with people who are doing good stuff to better this community and communities like it.

And I gotta say huge props to you, Rob. This is this is somewhat a a profession that is an unsung hero, for so many. But you're doing the hard work. It's it's it's it's opening minds even though you may not see it. And I can tell you that, your disposition and your approach is having a, I think, a real effect for all of us in this community.

Alright. Thank you. That's that's really great. That's really that's that actually made my day. It was a weird day today.

That made my day.

So thank you for that.

Of course. Of course.

So now, with all of the goodwill, right, that we've established, it had to get really, really odd and strange. I got 5 rapid fire questions for you. And Okay. You know, I think there's similar air sign vibes here. You might be an Aquarius.

I'm not quite sure. I always have to

I'm a Libra. I'm a Libra.

Still air sign. Okay. We're good. We're good. I I was I was wondering.

I'm an Aquarius. I was wondering. So here here's the first one. What was the first record you owned?

Oh my god. You know, I actually now ate this. I'm sorry. I shouldn't say that. It's no longer my favorite, but it was Billy Joel Glasshouses.

Wow. Wow. I was in can I was on Canal Street, New York City, and my parents gave me, like, $20, and I was all excited? And I didn't have time, and there you go.

I I because I I have a tie. It's so so corny. I bought the with my own money, Lynn, you can't stop the bum rush, which had that still my sunshine, and I bought them simultaneously, so they're both. This just really shows you my personality. Right?

It's that and Beanie Sigel's, like, maybe the reason or something. I was like

Oh, my God.

Hardcore Philly rapper, and then this, like, bubblegum pop from Canada. It's a very weird combo. Yeah. There you go.

Those are all fun, though. A lot funner than mine.

Because you you mentioned it early, early, early on as an interest. What is your favorite color or pattern, you know, with the fashion? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I love the color purple. And I also love the book, the color purple by Alice Walker. No. I love the color purple. I have always been a Prince fan, and, you know, legend.

But so, it now goes into the Ravens, but I've always had a purple bedroom in my life.

That's great. That's great. And you didn't do the the artist thing too, because I'll I'll ask them, what's your favorite? And I was like, here's my 3. It was like, I said 1.

Literally, I said 1. I said Calurg, not with s. That's that's great. And it's it's royalty. It's royalty.

You know? I yeah.

It is.

What was the last book you read?

Oh my god. I I have to tell you that right now, I have, like, 6 on my nightstand. I I used to be this, like, I can't read another book till I finish one book. It was just, like, this very rigid way of thinking. And now I'm, like, in this mode where I'm like, I'll do a little bit of this, and then I'll turn over to this.

I'm reading a lot about, the history of technology and the ways in which, race and technology intersect, believe it or not. And I cannot remember the book's title off the top of my head. That's that's one book. I'm reading a book on, giving feedback. Yeah.

Something that I'm really interested in, to to strengthen our work culture here. I'm reading, another book. I can't remember any author's name right now, which is really unlike me, but, Wolf Hall was the first book. Oh my god. Her name is on the tip of my tongue.

So I'm reading the second book for that. I think I've given you now, like, 3 different directions. Yeah. I'm, like, totally totally, non, systematic, but, I love to read.

Yeah. I'm a I'm definitely a audiobook guy. Definitely lots of that, and I just re up for the 3rd or 4th time in a row for that, like, 2 year audible thing where you get 24 books. I have a 130 books in my iPhone right now.

Oh my god.

It they they they're part of this the process in in coming up with questions. It's just like, alright. There's stuff that, you know, from, you know, art, you know, history and and our culture journalism. Like, I'm definitely into the that Rick Rubin book tying it to to, you know, hip hop. And, and definitely, I was reading, 48 Laws of Power again this this morning because it's like, I can get something out of this.

It's gonna just spark the thinking and, anything Austin Kleon. It's just like, here we go. Let's make it happen.

Wow. Well, you know, if you're gonna say anything blank for me, it would be anything Tony Tony Morrison, an all time favorite author. Nice. Yeah.

So I got 2 last ones. What are you currently watching? Because a lot of people have been throwing out succession recently, and,

I don't know how people watch that show, honestly. It makes me so sad and depressed. You know, I believe in humanity. I believe that we're all wonderful people, and that show just really rips that idea apart in every single way possible. So, no, I I I don't do Succession.

I watch Abbott Elementary religiously. That is one of my favorite shows right now. You know, I'm I'm I'm really a sophisticated TV viewer if you can't tell. I watch Curb Your Enthusiasm for for for jokes sometimes, Key and Peele, old Key and Peele. And, we just started watching I guess The Mandalorian is back on.

Yes.

So that's that's something we're watching right now. Very very timely. Nothing I'm waiting for Only Murders in the Building to come back on.

I have not heard about this. I'm checking to that then.

Oh, you gotta you gotta watch that. It's it's cute. It's cute.

So this this is the last one. This has been the the one that's, you know, really been on the been on my mind. Right. Over the last, like, few weeks. I'm very interested in, like, you know, kind of how people operate during the day.

So I want to get to, like, the evening portion, right, where, you know, it's a long day. You need something good. Does it have to be healthy? What what is your go to? Like, what do you have a weakness for in culinary speaking?

Is it you like ramen? You like fries? What what's the thing for you?

Well well, as I tell everybody, I never met a fry I didn't I didn't love. But when it comes to late night, when when I'm at home, everybody who knows me well will tell you this. I am such a chip girl. I love potato chips. Potato chips are of my happy place and specifically, sour cream and onion.

There's nothing better with ridges with ridges. Yeah. And then, followed by, you know, a nice, delectable dessert of of gummy bears. That that means heaven.

That's that's 10:10. I like that. That is that's that's the right answer, actually. So, that's pretty much it for for me and, in my questions. But I would like to, 1, thank you for making the time to be on this this podcast.

And and, 2, I wanna invite and encourage you to share anything in the final moment, social media, website, all of that good stuff and negative social. But, anything BMA related that you wanna share in the final moments here?

Absolutely, Rob. I wanna first thank you for the care with which you have approached this interview. The research, the integrity that you bring to to this, job is is wonderful. It's been a pleasure to be on. I am not on social, but I would say please, look us up on IG and artbma.org for our website for our current offerings.

We just opened some really fabulous exhibitions with some local artists. And, you know, let me know if you have any thoughts out there, all you podcast listeners, about what we can be doing better because this is this is a moment for us to grow and learn. So thank you.

And there you have it, folks. I wanna again thank doctor Asma Naeem for coming on to the podcast and telling us a bit about her story, career, and, plans for BMA. And I'm Rob Lee saying that there's art and culture in and around Baltimore, you've just gotta look for it.