Welcome back to the Truth in His Heart. Thank you for joining me for my conversations bridging arts, culture, and community. I am your host, Rob Lee. Today, I am super excited to be in conversation with my next guest, an accomplished arts educator, artist, and advocate based in Los Angeles. She is the founder of Adding Voices, a conference focused on arts education for people of color and allies.
Rob Lee:Her work emphasizes social justice and anti racism in education. Please welcome Flavia Zuniga West. Welcome to the podcast.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Hey. Thanks for having me.
Rob Lee:You can tell I scripted that. I wrote that. I've I I tried definitely.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:No. That was definitely written down, but that's okay. I appreciate a good intro. If you don't have a good intro, like, what's happening? Because if someone's not trying to hype you up, you're like, wait.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Why'd you even ask me to be here and kick it? Right?
Rob Lee:100%. It's the it's the thing. You have people, like, fumble through their things. And I and I it was funny because I was like, yeah, I already did my intro and I was like, I'm just gonna redo my intro. I was like, I gotta I gotta pop out and show
Flavia Zuñiga-West:You gotta pop out and show?
Rob Lee:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh-huh. Yeah.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:You don't like us? Yeah? Alright. Alright. So,
Rob Lee:you know and again, thank you for for coming on the pod and to to get started, I I think it's just customary to give folks the space to to introduce themselves in their own words. As I said, this is scripted. This is written. It's it's an amalgamation, a cut and paste, if you will. But I think hearing who the person is and sort of how they choose to describe themselves and what their background is and introduce themselves is important.
Rob Lee:So I'm gonna give you the opportunity to do that.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Oh, alright.
Rob Lee:Improv.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Okay. Alright. I'm Flavia. I'm a proud daughter of an immigrant. I'm a black Sakim.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:I'm an artist. I'm a maker, a creator, I'm a mother. I have ADHD, which I think is my superpower because I can, like, hyperfocus and create amazing things and then, I don't know, chill out the next day. I'm a certified geek. Science fiction is where it's at.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Like, Octavia Butler, let's talk about it all day, every day. Sci fi nerd for sure. Yeah, I love what I do, and I'm grateful for every opportunity in each day to do what I do, and that's teaching young people and connecting with young people and sharing my love of art and letting them know that the practice of art is, I don't know, somewhere in between, I would say, finding one's voice, freedom, and an absolute sanctuary. So, yeah, that's me. What's up?
Rob Lee:Yeah. We're we're definitely gonna be tapping back on some of those those items. And and thank you for for sharing and doing that intro. And you're giving me, like, more rapid fire questions because that's the thing. When you don't have them, I start adding them as where you'll see me typing.
Rob Lee:I was like, Oh, you're a geek? So tell me about all of the Star Wars people or all of the this or all of the that. There's gonna be some geek questions that's gonna pop up.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Oh, I gave, like, that. Let's go.
Rob Lee:But before we get there, we have to get through, and we'll get to sort of the the main crux of the conversation today.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Probably.
Rob Lee:So I think it is we we look at the beginning. We look at sort of our personal journeys. They kinda direct why we engage in what we do and those sort of the introduction, the intersection of arts, culture, and community. I do this, and it's really interesting timing. I have been a podcaster for 15 years, but for the last 5, I've done this podcast, talking with folks that look like me and you, and really thinking that sort of arts is an entry point and then really growing it.
Rob Lee:But the root of it, the basis of it was someone who, might be on the news a lot was talking very spicy about Baltimore, someone who's a color. And I was like, I don't like that. I don't like when people kind of down a city, because it feels like you're downing a people there, you're downing a community there, and there's so many stories. And kind of diving into that a bit deeper, you find like there's so much creativity, there's so many unique personalities there, and being able to explore those narratives. So when you look at your background and you look at your personal journey, how has that influenced you to pursue, you know, art art, arts education, and specifically focusing on black and brown folk?
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Okay. That's a good question. I'm gonna kinda rift on it. I don't know if I have, like a succinct answer, but I think that, ancestors always have a role in what we do. Right?
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Like those who come before us. Something my brother and I always say is that we stand upon the shoulders of giants. Right? And that's being a daughter of an immigrant whose family came here for education. Right?
Flavia Zuñiga-West:So that's my mom's side of the family and I am a daughter of 2 educators. So I never planned to be in education, but, it's a calling, you know, it's a vocation almost I think to teach. But I think that happened because of the unique circumstances, we often find ourselves of being the only one, the only one in this space, the only one in the classroom, the only one in the job. And my parents were those only ones. They were in a sense, beginners in social justice work, particularly in private independent schools in Los Angeles.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:And I attend now and teach at my alma mater intentionally. And that was the place where it all started, but then I had to simmer some. You feel me? But, I was the only one in the independent school, like, as in, like, one of the only Black identifying students, let alone Latinx identifying students. And, you know, when you don't see yourself, it's a difficult thing.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:But I loved art, and art was always this place of freedom and exploration or escapism all wrapped into 1, right. It was my safe space. And I think somewhere between that and being at a school that had affinity groups. So like affinity groups, if nobody knows what those are, right, are spaces for different communities, right? So if you identify being black, then you and the black kid club.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Right? You identify being Latinx within that club. Asian American club, Pacific Asian club, like SWANA, like we can get real specific LGBTQIA plus like we can go on and on. So we had affinity groups at school. And so I was part of BLACC.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:And our school, with the help of my father at the time, we would attend something called the People of Color Conference. That's from the National Association of Independent Schools. And they had a portion of this conference that was just for students called SDLC, student leadership diversity conference. And I went I wanna say maybe 15, 16. And I think that was, the the game changer, you know, when I'd look back on it.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:It's not a clear set story, but, yeah. That entire conference for students, I'm gonna read a blip from it because, like, I couldn't remember. So it says, SDLC focuses on self reflecting, forming allies, and building community. Led by a diverse team of trained adult and peer facilitators, participating students develop cross cultural communication skills, design effective strategies for social justice praxis praxis and practice through dialogue and the arts, and learn the foundations of allyship and networking principles. So this is where I learned how to have difficult conversations and to learn how to talk about myself and explore and understand the facets of my identity.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:And I think interact with, I mean like being, an Afro Latina, I think I, I, what, I think without knowing, right, I've been living this life of, you know, intersectionality but not having the word and then eventually, you know, you go to school and things, you get the word to explain what you're experiencing. You're like, why is everyone treating me different? Why are these things colliding? You're like, oh, it makes sense now. It makes sense now.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:I got it. I got it. So, what I mean to say is that I think that, very early on in my teen years, I had this experience that was life changing, meeting all these kids who wanted to talk about what was up in the world and talk about who we are and how that affected us and have difficult, uncomfortable conversations. And then I didn't really touch that for, like, a minute. Yeah.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:And then, I don't know. Undergrad, I have a BFA in drawing and painting, from the School of the Art Institute of Chicago with a focus in fiber and material studies. Okay? And when I'm in this program, I start realizing how few people look like me, how few professors I have that look like me. So I consistently wonderful professors, but who are telling me they don't understand my work.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:And what I come to find is, they say they can't understand my work because it doesn't make sense. And my work is, is they say they can't understand my work because it doesn't make sense. And my work is about being a, you know, a a blaxican. Right? And where the code switching and the immersion and the melding occur in my everyday life.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Like, Blaxico in a sense, what I explore in my artwork is like a real place. Right? Like, I live it every day. It's with my family and my children and my parents. Like, it vibes all day every day.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:And so I was trying to find ways to explore this using, weaving, using, subversive, forms of creation that women have always used in a sense. So and people of color, particularly black women. Right? So I was quilting. I was embroidering.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:I was finding these ways of communicating what I was feeling through them. I got you. Don't worry. I'm gonna circle back. So all this this threading, this weaving leads me to be like, what the hell am I gonna do with my life?
Flavia Zuñiga-West:So then I go to NYU to get my master's in museum studies because I'm like, I need to get a job. Right? Like, I need to find a way to be around art all the time, but, you know, not lose my love of myself, of the world, etcetera. So I get, you know, I go into museums, and the same thing happens. I see nobody who looks like me, no one who can talk to me about what I'm doing.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:I consistently am feeling alienation, right, and seeking community and wondering what's going on. And this is continues today. For the majority of art programs, grad programs, it is very rare to find that many students of color, teachers of color because 80% of art educators are white and female, and, that's like a statistic you can literally grab from the National Association of Art Education. So the only one is what made me think I needed community, and that's kinda how all this happens, I guess, is the best way to answer that in some strange way.
Rob Lee:Yeah. No. See, 1, here's the thing. Here's the thing. Right?
Rob Lee:1, you've made my job a little easier because you kind of started answering part of that step follow-up question, that second one. I noticed you saw that. I was like, oh, you're answering my second question. This is my job. No, I'm kidding.
Rob Lee:I'm kidding. I was just like,
Flavia Zuñiga-West:oh, geez. All right. All right.
Rob Lee:No, no, no, no. Absolutely not. It makes my job easier. Makes me like dad. That was a really good question that I asked
Flavia Zuñiga-West:It was a good question. I was like shit to try and sum that all up. Excuse me. I can't probably I don't know if I could cuss on it. Okay, cool.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:I'll be good
Rob Lee:You can no. We we we keep it real here. We keep it
Flavia Zuñiga-West:real. Right. Right.
Rob Lee:And and thank you for that because I think it adds a lot more texture texture in it. And sort of like as in in my day job, I'm a, analyst. So when someone throws out factoids at data, I'm like, yeah, tell me more. Tell me more. Yes.
Rob Lee:And it gives it up context as to, you know, at times, for for for the visual, because people don't believe me, I'm a large black man. I'm 64. So
Flavia Zuñiga-West:You don't look 64 in the in the screen. I just wanna say it. But okay. So you would talk. You stand out.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Everyone be noticing you up in some spaces. I get you. Yep.
Rob Lee:There are times and this is just an example, and it it kinda you you mentioned sort of the, to paraphrase, not seeing yourself represented in the spaces that you're you're in. There I will say there are instances where I might do something that is going out, you know, going to see somebody's work, going to see a show or something like that, and if the room doesn't look like me, I'm like, I have those dynamics, you know? I've dropped some weight, but I'm 250 as well, so I'm like a large black guy, what have you. And I noticed sort of the energy is a shift of, like, are you the bouncer? Are you this?
Rob Lee:Are you that? And one that comes to mind is a couple years ago, but you but it sticks out because of what it was connected to. I was, one of the people being honored for doing this podcast, you know, from one of these sort of wins, right? And it was sullied because I'm getting in the line, and they were my partner. We're going in and One of those maybe maybe she was one of those curators.
Rob Lee:Who knows? Was like, oh, can you scan me in? I got a lanyard on saying winner, and she thinks I'm security, and then treats me as such. And the owner and my partner, the owner of the venue and my partner had to course correct that, but the precept was you're beneath me, was sort of how it was treated. So, I always kind of carry that as, yeah, you're invited, but also make sure you keep yourself.
Rob Lee:Don't fall for it, I suppose. So don't fall for, this could be weird. And be around your people to be able to be around the people that you're most comfortable with.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Yeah. I think that comes to a couple of points. I'm so sorry that happened to you, first of all. I've had many experiences of being assumed I'm the help, often at times in those situations, like I'm the caterer or, you know, like I like those, those kind of moments. I think that often the message is this space isn't for you, right?
Flavia Zuñiga-West:And I think this space isn't for you comes particularly from an issue of inclusive practices, particularly within the museum. So, I go through my museum studies program. It's a focus on curatorial studies. I land the diversity, you know, like, internship at, where was I, at MOMA, right? The Museum of Modern Art in New York.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:So I'm like, like, super excited and I meet this wonderful person named Ross. Ross and I are the only black people in this entire cohort. We just look at each other and look at each other and you're like, you don't know, like, not all kinfolk be skin folk. Right? Like, none of skin folk are finco.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Not all skin folk are kin folk is what I mean to say. And when you notice that, you got to be careful, right, when you're in these spaces. But, like, we eventually, like, you know, get along really well and, like, it's all unspoken, but continuously we are experiencing, I don't think there's a such thing as microaggressions. I feel like they're all my macro because it's my fucking body in a space that's feeling violence due to your language. So, like, the word microaggression, I'm not really a fan of, but aggressions, we'll call them that.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:And and it's like when it becomes, I don't know, when whiteness is so indoctrinated into culture, and we talk about culture, high culture, low culture, art culture, that people are unaware of what they're saying. Right? And so decentering whiteness becomes so much larger, particularly I think in the art space, because the art space also comes with money. Right? And we understand so much that the access, right, like like, the currency is the currency of the realm up in here.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:And the fact that, you know, these systems of oppression are very clear. So it's a you're not welcome, you're a guest, and we used to be on display. Right? That's what makes, you know, Beyonce's music video right inside the Louvre so, like, absolutely, like, apeshit. Like, the reason why it's apeshit is because, like, our bodies are in it taking over, like, on top of all these objects that you cannot touch.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Yet we were always touched. We were always weighed. Right? Like, we were viewed as chattel. Right?
Flavia Zuñiga-West:So, I think there's so much of the museum where that tension keeps coming because we used to be on display, and now we're making all the work and all the hotness that absolutely everybody wants. And so now we live in this performative DEI world with the arts world trying to sess it out and it's tricky. But I'm sorry that happened to me, but it happened to me a lot. That's why I left museums. I was like, this is too much.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Like, not to say other spaces don't have their problems. I was like, I don't know if I have the, the patience, I think is the right word, and the ability to bite my tongue. My mama says it's been problem with me my whole life, but like I'm I'm a talk backer, you know. Thank you, Bell Hooks. There's a whole book about it.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:But like talking, like raised that way, is that way. Like, I'm gonna say what I'm gonna say. Yeah, I get you.
Rob Lee:I I appreciate that and you know, I encounter encounter it, you know, those different things at times and I like the way that she called it. It's it's just aggressions. It's just aggressions. And,
Flavia Zuñiga-West:what's what's my bro about it? Like, you're like, so I was getting an award. It was a big deal. I was all hyped up. I told my family everybody knew.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:And then that one moment was so violent and aggressive to, like, the entire evening for you.
Rob Lee:Yeah. And the the the last one I'll share is is similar before I move into this next question. It's similar, and I think I was better equipped for it because I had some time. Right? And, you know, having that instance and then having maybe a year, year and a half before this follow-up instance, there were these sort of huge moments that, you know, commemorative moments, right, where, you know, I'm at this thing.
Rob Lee:I'm getting this, you know, award. I'm one of these, like, winners of this large amount of funding and all of this different stuff. And I had a had a dude, before I go up there, he'd asked to be on the show, but then all at the same time Told me what my did was not work or journalism. It was just mid and I was just like, what are you aiming for here? It's like, do you want to be what do you want to be?
Rob Lee:And I was thinking about it. I was like, I could wring this dude's neck right now. That was literally And the the the kicker was it's like someone says games this game gamesmanship where, let's say, someone's taking a free throw. I don't know if you watch basketball, but someone's taking, you know, free throws.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Yes. Absolutely. Yeah.
Rob Lee:And someone tells you, like, you know you're gonna miss those. Right? It was kind of that. So the dude says this to me, before I have to go up there and speak about getting this huge award to this big group of affluent white folks that are the funders for this thing. Mhmm.
Rob Lee:And I had to keep all of mine. I was like, I know how to do this. I'm I'm good at this. I still might wring this dude's neck. But it was one of those things where, you know, I wasn't comfortable in this this idea.
Rob Lee:I, you know, hit it well, but wasn't comfortable in this idea of speaking to a room filled white folk about money they gave me for my little project where I speak with black and brown folk. And and that was a it was a thing, and I was, like, very aware of all of that. And I was, like, I'm not gonna do the on display thing. I'm just gonna speak in a way that's, like, this is me. This is just what this is.
Rob Lee:And be brief in it, and move on to the next thing.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Yeah. Well, I think that's the difference between charity versus solidarity. Right? That's the problem when people keep approaching, interacting with communities that have literally been affected to systemic oppression as this act of charity when you're like, it should be solidarity. You should be right there with me.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Like, this is messed up. We got you. Here's this and let's celebrate it. But I get you. Yeah.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:You have to swallow it. You compartmentalize it, and you put it up over here. Yeah. And you know how to, you know, for lack of better, like, code switch. Right?
Flavia Zuñiga-West:And I think that's also generational. That code switching be generational, and it's learned behavior too. Right? Because and people act like, they're like, well, how can white people, you know, someone was like, how can white people don't do this? I'm like, you don't have to interact.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Like, you can come into any space that is ours almost, like, with with very few, you know, I mean, there's some spaces you can't come into, but, like, for the most part, y'all can show up wherever you go. But access to the majority of the things that we need, we have to intersect into your world, your neighborhood, your, you know, like, your business, etcetera. So it's very different of how we need to move through spaces. And a reality of violence, whether I think that's emotional, psychological, or physical, is a very real thing. Especially for you, if you're a 6 foot tall, like, large Black man, like, that's always in your mind.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Right? Like, that's a that's a real thing. But you started off saying someone was talking ish on Baltimore. The fact that y'all have Jen White Johnson as, like, a Baltimore resident, like, they just need to be quiet right there. The way that that woman is, like, the most epic mind and creator and, you know, mothering as a form of resistance, being neurodivergent and having a neurodivergent son, like that woman changed my life as a mother of a child with autism.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Like, she she's the goat. Like, that's called someone changing up the art world right there. Like, on juxtapose, the rest of it, like, the past, I wanna say, like, 4 years, she's been blowing up. If she hasn't been on your podcast, I will happily introduce, like, she's she's incredible.
Rob Lee:I would I would love that. Yeah.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Baltimore not being no.
Rob Lee:It's it's so it's so it's trumpetos. Those trumpisms thrown out.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:I know. I know, Sara. I know who
Rob Lee:you are. Uh-huh.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Whether it's dei persons, you know that right? I'm a dei person the types of persons who are dei is right here
Rob Lee:100%. So as I'm moving to this next question, and and I think kind of what we've we've talked about a bit gives sort of the flourishing context around this. But, you know, as an artist, as an educator, as an advocate, what aspects of, like, community building and social justice continue to inspire your work? I think it's fairly obvious that I at least wanted to ask the question.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:That's interesting that you say is fair. I think it's, meeting people. You know? I made a whole bunch of memes before I started the first well, after the so the first Addie Voices conference was in 2020, and it was online. Okay?
Flavia Zuñiga-West:And it was virtual. And I'll tell you I know you got questions about that later, so I won't mess with that. And then jump to that I get offered to offer it in person and Moore College of Art and Design, their director of art education, right, of the grad program is like, do you want to host it here? We got you. We'll fund it.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:I'm like, bet. Let's do it. Like art school, the rest of it, great. So, you know, I start making memes and, you know, trying to write advertising marketing, like it's a one person show here, right? Like I don't, like, I was like, who's doing that for you?
Flavia Zuñiga-West:I'm like, it's her, let me just change my clothes or a hat, like it's me. And I got the full time job and the babies. But, my point is, is so I started making memes where it's like, when you see another, you know, art educator of the global majority, right? When you're like, oh, it's you. And like the way we gravitate towards each other when you're in an all white space, right?
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Because you feel uncomfortable because you watch everyone schmoozing or making immediate connections or a way to hang out with Susan and whoever and they doing their thing and you're looking around being like, oh, damn. Right? And you are on the corner on the walls. And we're not wall like, wallflower people. We know this.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Because if you put us in a cookout, we're not on the wall. Most of us are not on the damn wall. So you're like, you've got the vibe. You're uncomfortable. You feel alienated, and then we find each other.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:This need need to find each other. And I think I started meeting people after having the conference and just in general being like, I know nobody like me. Like and not the need for, like, this, we think the same way kind of indoctrination. I just mean that moment of feeling community where someone welcomes you openly and lovingly and sees the world, and the impact they can make similarly. Right?
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Does that make sense? What it's like when you wanna lift each other up, there's no there's no bullshit for lack of a better word. So I think for me, it was meeting people, and they're like, yo, we're friends now because of your conference. We link up and kick it all the time, and I'm like, that makes my heart sing. Right?
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Or, like, people who tell me, like, you don't understand. Like, I'm the only one at my school. I'm the only black educator at my school, and then I'm in the arts. So the way that the arts is already disrespected, let alone them being a black person teaching it or someone who's a Latinx person teaching it, they're like, it's lonely, and the loneliness can eat at you.
Rob Lee:Yeah.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:And it's scary if you're actually trying to talk about the issues, in the world or trying to help students become critical thinkers and start assessing. Why do we only talk about old dead white guys? You ever thought about, like, like, why?
Rob Lee:And it's
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Why are these the names that you know? Why can you repeat the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles solid, right? Like Raph, Leo, Mikey, like the whole crew, right? You got them down like, you know, like solid. You can maybe name like Georgia O'Keeffe and then you just struggling.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:And then if you're lucky, someone's like, there's Boss Biat, and you're like, okay. Cool. Cool. Cool. Then, like, that's where you end.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Right? So, but, yeah, I think it's the need for community, the hunger, and, often the alienation that comes with it. You know, that's a real part of, I think, why.
Rob Lee:It makes it makes a lot of sense. And, you know, I was I was teasing that out and definitely we we're on the same page. That's good. That's good. That's what I was thinking.
Rob Lee:I was like, And, you know, I may have listened to another podcast that you were on, and I was like, I gotta ask this question when I was, like, doing my my research. Because I I do research as well, you know?
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Okay. Okay. Because I was like, I was listening to the podcast. I was like, okay. What's the vibe?
Flavia Zuñiga-West:What's happening? Alright. What do I need to know?
Rob Lee:I was like, alright. Thank you for doing that because you'd be surprised a lot of people will get on just like, I haven't listened to your thing yet. I'm ready to talk though. I'm like, alright. You got it.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Yeah. No. You got it because you got it. Mm-mm. Yeah.
Rob Lee:So speaking of students a bit, sort of like with the work that you're doing and the work that you're spending a lot of time, energy toward. How do you like see you helping like students hone their artistic voice, especially in the context of like social justice or what have you? Is it the community component? Is it the, I've seen it and I'm an educator, so I have this lived experience piece? Speak one out of it.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:I think that's complex as most things are. So I teach a lot of different students and I'm grateful for that. So I teach literally my students, which is like the middle school age, 7th, 8th, 9th grade, And then I also teach undergrad, and then I also teach grad students. I'm often brought into lecture or and I lead a lot of workshops on with with teachers who are right now in the field. So I'd say in my classroom, it's letting kids know the power of art.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Right? Bell hooks talks about how education is the practice of freedom. And I sit with that, like, every day. And she talks about the importance of art as a form of liberation. I'll find the quote in a minute.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:But she talks about the importance of art as this vehicle for voice and this vehicle for self worth. And I think that's what sits with me because I want my students at the end of the day to know that art is something that they can go to to care for themselves. We're in a mental health crisis. Right? Like, that's also very real, and so you need the safe space.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:And if art is that vehicle for you to communicate and to feel, I think that's beautiful. On the social justice piece, because all those things, liberation is interlinked. Right? We know that. That's communal care.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:I think showing them, like so perfect example. My la one of my last lessons of the school year, we were like, we're gonna do printmaking. Like, great. And then I'm like, why do we care about printing? Like, what what happens in the tool of printmaking?
Flavia Zuñiga-West:They're like, you can make multiples of something. Right? And, like, right. Well, what do you wanna make multiples of? You know, let's talk about so we talked about pop art before this.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Right? The idea of consumerism and mass production and what do those things mean and that comes into capitalism. It's very interesting. It's like, well, what do you wanna say out loud a lot? Like so I showed them a whole bunch of different posters about people who care about different issues.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:I said, what's an issue you care about? You know, that varied from every student, and that was everything from the environment right to I got a lot of people who were like, no, I'm a feminist, and I believe in the fact that I should have a right to my body. They're 12. I just want to put this like everyone wants little children and act like they don't know. They absolutely know.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Or they're like unfair wages or women not being carried equally, all of that. So I was like, okay, dope. Well, like, let's how are you gonna make that? What's it gonna say? How are you gonna get your message across?
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Usually, there's like a slogan, right, or like the hit word that's gonna come up when you see those things. And so all these kids did a little bit of research, and they came out with like the most fire stuff. It's on my Instagram, but like they came with some of the most amazing, creations, and all of it came back to empowering. Right? So often when we talk about power and we are taught about power, our own lived experiences, it's power over somebody else.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Right? It's hierarchical. Yeah. And we often don't talk about the power within ourselves or the power with others, right, and the power to and so, like, the power to change the world, the power to make someone think differently, the power within our collective, community to create change. Right?
Flavia Zuñiga-West:So they were teaching each other about each other's issues, and they were, you know, in a sense, learning a whole new way about their classmates who they weren't particularly close to, all of them, because it's be middle school. Let's be real. They get along. They're kind, you know, like, we got a good classroom community building. But I think that's what was beautiful was the critical thinking, and the empowerment that with their own creativity, with their own aesthetic, with what they care about in the world, they can say something.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:They can use this tool because that's my job. I give you tools in your toolbox Yeah. And then you create. Right? So I think that's in the classroom, and I have some other instances of that.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:We did an entire piece. What was for me was, them understanding how to work in mixed media, right, in sculpture. And they created, pieces that were about water, and I talked about water scarcity. Right? I talked about, like, water injustice, and I was explaining to them.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:I was like, hey. I want you to teach about human rights because you keep asking me all these questions in the classroom, which are making me between you, like, hella uncomfortable because, like, I like, right, like, like, not to say I can't speak my mind, but right, like I have this job, I need to do these things. Like I don't need to tell all my business out there on my thoughts, like where, you know, and, but education is also political. Right? So, like, you're sitting there.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:And so, like, my way of speaking to these kids, and they're like, yeah, people keep saying human rights violations. What are human rights? And I was like, that's my entry. So we looked at the bill of human rights
Rob Lee:Yeah. And
Flavia Zuñiga-West:the kids were, like, what is this? And they're, like, not everyone does that. What about that? Like, they were on top of it. And they're, like, so everybody has to do this because not everyone does this.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:What do you mean water didn't become a human right till 2010? And I'm like, uh-huh. Clean water and clean sanitation. Mhmm. So every kid made, like, an emergency water vessel shape, right, but altered it and found a different country or place to research and found a way to not only put the data, like, the information on it, but also, like, decorate it and make it like a teachable art vessel.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Right? And I had never made that before. I was just like, okay, cool. Like, let's do it. And that's the best part about teaching where you're like, I've never done this before.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Like, let's go. Let's see what happens. And when it becomes better than you actually imagine it, it's the most igniting beautiful thing. But it's watching your students teach each other in the moment, I think, when I do this social justice work. Does that make sense?
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Which I really think is just teaching art and critical thinking. I know that is the label that we give it, but I think it's just really teaching. Like, art has always been interdisciplinary, the arts in general, whether, you know, like the performing arts, all of the arts. And I think that when we link those things for students, remind them that even though they're in these classes, like, this is history, this is English, this is science. Like, when artists are creating, they're borrowing from all these different concepts, ideas, histories, information, data, and then creating something new.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Like, that's your job is to synergize, right, and to create something to your own interest. And so to watch them do this, and I'll just end with so I had this one kid, and, he was like, Missy W, give me something. Like, give me give me, like, a group of people. And I was like, cool. Pick Indigenous people in Canada.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:And he was like, okay. Okay. Like, bet. And I was like, alright, bet. Because it's amazing piece.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Like, he's like, okay. Game on. Like, challenge accepted. I'm like, cool. Dope.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Challenge accepted. His name is, Sam Wise, by the way. He's the GOAT. I love this kid. Yes, Sam Wise.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Yeah, facts. And so Sam Wise, who also loves all the geekery, so we vibe real well, is like, okay. He creates this vessel, and this vessel, you know, like, he's looking for the data. Everyone had to have a piece of data, right, that, like, literally connected it to unclean water and sanitation, right, to, like, give a fact, but to visually display
Rob Lee:it
Flavia Zuñiga-West:in some way on this, like, vessel. And he goes, it's he's like, I can't find anything. The only information I can find about unclean water for these tribes and these reservations is, like, so outdated. It's from the sixties. There's a few articles about it, but I can't find anything else.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:And then he says out loud to me, it's almost like they don't want us to find the data. Because if they they find the data, Missy W, then they have to do something. I took a sip of water, like, that was a grab a Snickers moment, and then other kids are like, I've had that same problem with the blah blah blah blah. How come and it was like, boom, and I did my job. And that's like, to me, I was like, I did my job.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:He's like, it's almost like it. I'm like, it's almost like
Rob Lee:that. It's a lot of times, and I want to insert this, a lot of times, like, as a newer educator, kind of educator, I'm resisting it, but I do it, I guess. And it's funny, and I'm like, Oh, and someone says, Hey, it's Mr. Robb. I'm like, Oh, that's Professor Robb.
Rob Lee:But I I use sort of what I do in my background, and I try to connect it to what they're doing and definitely the critical thinking part. Like, I'm a data analyst. I have that side as sort of the real data, and it's very much my personality. But then I also do this. So it's bringing the storytelling with the data behind it and all of that, and it definitely there's overlap, and it informs both things.
Rob Lee:And even improves some of the questions and how we're asked those questions so that that notion of how things are linked together and how things connect, I'll ask folks, like, I've talked to chefs. I'm like, I know you did something creative. I know you did something outside of the kitchen that, you know, as far as this lane of creativity. And you'll find out, oh, I'm also a musician. I was like, oh, tell me more.
Rob Lee:How do those things go together? And, you know, I'll make these connections. So that version of thinking that's serving these these questions and these unique insights, I've been applying that in the class to try to get over these ideas because, you know, I'm in it. I'm in the field. I'm in the sort of podcasting space, and I see how things are kept vague.
Rob Lee:They're kept rarified. They're kept that folks that look like you and I can't, quote, unquote, succeed unless we're doing a certain thing that might not align with our values. I don't I don't do the shucking and jiving. That's not really my vibe. And No
Flavia Zuñiga-West:minstrels here, sir. No minstrels here.
Rob Lee:And and I find that I see the stuff that's getting pushed. Obviously, it has this, oh, well, you know, it's getting people's attention. I'm like, sure. But it's disposable. What are you really saying?
Rob Lee:You know? I'm so like, this could be funny. This could be interesting. This could be something, but, really, it's disposable. And it's like, I don't feel like it's representative of the culture.
Rob Lee:So I'm coming from that perspective when I'm talking with my students when they're building out their new podcasts. I'm like, yeah. Okay. Sure. Club Shea Showing.
Rob Lee:Sure. We all saw the Kat Williams thing. And I I I I was joking with him yesterday. This is fresh. Mhmm.
Rob Lee:I was like, how many mid podcast talked about an entanglement a couple years ago? And everyone in there started laughing. I was like, don't make those. Have your own viewpoint. What's gonna make yours unique?
Rob Lee:And why are you doing this? Like, really aligning to what that why is. Does this need to be a podcast, or is this a conversation? And looking at a podcast outside of that, looking at that as a version of Anthropologie, it's a moment in time, this is an archive, all of these different things. And they're like, oh, you take this really seriously.
Rob Lee:I say, yes. I've done it for 15 years.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Yeah. Well, I think that's the other thing is consistently educating children that are and people in general. Yeah. That, like, the arts is a field. Like, respect the technique.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Like, let's put some respect on the name. Like like, it takes time to do these things. I've been teaching for this is I just finished, like, my 11th year teaching. You know? But in terms of art making and the rest of it, like, that's been a lifetime.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:You know? Like, okay. We coming up on 40. I'm proud of that. But, like, I'm just saying, like, it's, you know, like, you you take time to cultivate these skills and to understand their larger purpose and meaning in in historical context, right, to be able to do the micro and the macro when we look at something.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:But you touched upon something that I really appreciated where you talked about critical thinking. And it's like, it's proven. There is data from the National Endowments of Arts that students who are engaged in art and education, they demonstrate higher academic performance, like 63% difference than children who do not take the arts. Like, critical thinking is there. That's just academic achievement.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:But they're problem solving consistently. It's the problem is when people make the cookie cutter stuff that literally is an indoctrination into the child becoming, what do I wanna say? The factory worker. Right? When you approach art making in capitalistic formats, and you're like, and then we all do the stencil, then we all make the thing, then we all do, and every art piece looks the same.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:You know exactly what I'm talking about. And then when you go into the classrooms where all of them look different and you see some like, and it's like, it's beautiful and it's a little messy and it looks like a child did it. When it looks like a child made it and it's their ideas, and that's a whole new level. And when they have to problem solve, that's the beauty. Like, here are the materials.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:You gotta figure out how to make this. And they're like, well, how am I gonna do them? Like, figure it out. And that's what makes art classes like that. Those are who, are choice based teachers, for example.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:And that's a spectrum in itself of TAB teachers teaching for artistic behavior, where we get to enjoy watching that, like, that problem solving and creativity because it's not someone going, you have to write a paper. There's this many words. Go. Because all you still got is paper and words. You feel me where we're, like, here's all the different ways that you can use cardboard and adhere it to a surface.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Here's all the things you can use for texture. What are you communicating with the materials you're using? Do you want that to be a subtext of the sculpture itself? And that's when you're building artistic process and and thinkers and emotional intelligence as well. Like, so I vibe with that a 1000%.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:It's it's a beautiful thing to have that. And that's the kids in the classroom to answer your question.
Rob Lee:And then,
Flavia Zuñiga-West:like, the teachers in the classroom, like, the ones who are beginning teachers or those who have been teaching for a long time, I think it's seen it's seen art as a vehicle for change and, a real ability to have, deep conversations. I'm gonna try and find this quote that I wanted to read to you because it's, like, essential. I feel like I need to appreciate it.
Rob Lee:Absolutely.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:I'll stop trying to, like, barge into this.
Rob Lee:No. No. And and I'll I'll do the padding thing that day, so in podcasting. But I'll throw this out there where, you know, sort of, I noticed when going back to sort of the high school experience, I'm like, I'm pushing 40, you know, 39, and, you know, they told me I look like they're bad. I'm like, this is a lot.
Rob Lee:And I was like, I don't have any kids. This is a lot. And, I remember as I got to the sort of latter stages, I was like, you guys have been doing this. You guys have been doing podcasts. You got all the the structure and all of that.
Rob Lee:So I started just coming up with challenging prompts of, hey, we're going to have you guys who've now worked together. We're all gonna go into the studio. You all have done work in the studio. You're gonna do a 15 minute podcast. Here's your topic, and make sure you have these components in it.
Rob Lee:I don't really know how you get there, I'm not going to tell you who's the host and who's the guest and all of that, and you just see like, oh, you're giving us autonomy. It's like, yes, you're podcasters, Go forth and pod.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:I respect you. I believe that you have artistic agency. You are bright and you are capable. I am not from the top. Right?
Flavia Zuñiga-West:It's like, it's it's literally just the it's a pedagogical difference. Right? That I am not like the all knowing, like, dropping knowledge into your brain. Like, you're bringing stuff too. Like, let's collaborate.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:And that's when the classroom truly becomes community, and teacher gets to be a part of that community and your relationship changes with those kids, and it's fire. It's the most beautiful thing and synergy that happens that you cannot to somebody else with young people in my personal opinion.
Rob Lee:A 100%.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Alright. I found it. Okay. This pretty much changed my teaching when I read this. Art is now perceived differently than before.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:It is seen as a vehicle for change, as a force that can break down the boundaries and expose inequalities. So people of color and the poor are denied access to art for the fear if they get their hands on it, they'll write their own stories and understand the value of their lives. Let's expand on that, not just art, but education as a whole.
Rob Lee:Inspire.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Right?
Rob Lee:Yep.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:I read that anytime I feel lost. I'm like, what? I'm like, beep, beep. Belle's got you.
Rob Lee:And you and you just answered a bonus question right there. So you're overachievers.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:I can't help it.
Rob Lee:So So, I want to move into sort of these last few questions that I have, and definitely, we're going to go back. You touched on it like that you teased it. That's what I'm calling in in the industry a tease. Okay. You know, going back into, adding voices.
Rob Lee:So give us the the the rundown. What is adding voices and what inspired you to founded, creation of it, all all of that good stuff? Give us give us the skinny.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Alright. So adding voices was formed in 2020. So let me paint the picture. COVID, in terms of, like, the actual full fledged, like, pandemic had just hit probably, like, 2 months ago before that. So I wanna say adding voices, the first ones was June 4, 2020.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:So about, I don't know, April ish, something like that. But, I was thinking about it. And what I was doing I was dealing with the world, like, personally. Like, I was upset at the world, what was happening in the world. I was very pregnant, with my second child, my daughter Artanesia.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:And, I kept telling my friend. I was like, I should just make this, like, this conference. And she's like, you've talked about this for a while. And I was like, yeah. Like, I wanna do a conference or something where it's just art education.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Like, I've always had the beautiful honor of attending the people of color conference. Right? That is for teachers, and there's multiple different subject matters, but arts is very small, like, right, like, in terms of history or other aspects of, you know, thinking about teachers broadly. And it's like this giant national conference that started off just being like a list serve, and then it slowly grew. Right?
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Like, so that's cool. It's like it's like it's like it slowly grew out of a few people who are changemakers. Right? And they're the ancestors of the whole thing. Anyway, so I was like, okay, well, maybe I should do it, maybe I shouldn't.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:And then I was like, okay, I'm gonna do it. How do I do this? And my mom joked. She goes, you made your own professional development. And I was like, yeah.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:And she's like, you did, Miha. You were just tired. And I was like, yeah. I was kind of upset because I was like, I want to learn how to apply this to the arts. Like, where are the people who are having the conversations about social justice and equity, right?
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Like the JEDI's out there, right? Like where are those people, like the justice, you know, equity, diversity, inclusion folks, like the JEDI's, right, like where are those people doing the work but in art education? And I was like, I'm going to find them. So, when you have a lot of time on your hands, you are pregnant, it's a pandemic, so you don't want to go outside, you end up reading a lot. So, I was reading a lot and I was reading a lot of critical theory and geeking out.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:And I was like, okay, like I'm going to learn about art education this other way. My background is not in art education, it's museum studies. Right? So, I was museum education, but that's different. So I started reading, and then I decided, like, okay, I'm gonna do this.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:It's gonna be online. It's gonna be accessible. Everyone's gonna be free. Okay. I'm like, what if nobody comes?
Flavia Zuñiga-West:And my friend was like, yo, if just like 10 people come, 5 people come, I still call it a win. And they're like, and then you just say it's a symposium. And I was like, work. So I think I called it symposium and not a conference the first time, so it was like worked around. And then I figured out who to ask to be the keynote speaker, and it's someone who, was an editor, for, what is it, Multiculturalism in Art Museums?
Flavia Zuñiga-West:It's a book, edited by Doctor. Joanie Boyd Acuff. And doctor Acuff works, she I think she's now head of the program and, chair of the art education program at Ohio State University. So I wrote a chapter in that book and I was like, hi, I don't know if you remember me, but I was just wondering, like, I just like tried it and she was like, yeah, I bet I would be totally interested to do it. So I got excited.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:And so because she is one of the most profound voices in the field, that helped me say she's going to be the keynote speaker, and then I found other speakers. So I ran an asynchronous conference. It was June 4th, so a month after baby girl was born. So I have about a 4 year old son, and now baby girl has been there for, like, you know, a month. So she's, like, chilling.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:The time when I was still married, my partner, like, took my boy out so I could, like, run it. And I did, like, maybe an an hour of synchronous, like, right, like, you know, real time, like, connecting with people, and I made it. But it was really figuring out, like, how do we stop cultural appropriation because I keep seeing it happening inside of all these classrooms. Like, we need to stop making, like, headdresses and things like that. Like, stop it.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Like, it's not as happy a lot of classrooms don't. Right? Like, stop that, you know. And how can we move past the consistent trope of multiculturalism that it's this month, so we study these people versus understanding that we need to undo this master narrative, right, and really changed the way we talk about art and even the beginning history of art. Right?
Flavia Zuñiga-West:So that's how it started. And I'll tell you only, like, put it out on Instagram, did the thing, made the website, had good friends who had run conferences before, like, talking to me and helping me. The GOAT, my friend Jennifer, she's she's amazing. She was like, do it. You know, you need you need you need, like, some black women in your life and daughters of immigrants to be like, just do it.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Like, what's gonna happen? You fail. And I'm like, you're right. So I did it, and then it was successful. So 10 people were signed up.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Right? And it was free. Trayvon not Trayvon, but, like, you know, Trayvon happened. So it's like I've been thinking about this for a while, but George Floyd gets murdered. And all of a sudden, my little, like, you should join and come talk about social justice, little art thing, ends up with 400 people registered.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Yeah. And I was like, what is this? And so, like, 1 woman show, right, with people being the Zoom link, you know, like all the things. So I had, like, the website that had all the different videos from every single presenter loaded up on there, and then there was like the access, and then I did like an IG live. So that happened.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:And then people started asking me to be keynote speakers or lead workshops, and I was, like, what is this? And then Moore College Art and Design, Lauren Sticker, who runs their grad program was like, hi. I wanna talk to you. I wanna learn more about culturally responsive and sustainable teaching. Can you come lecture and lead a webinar?
Flavia Zuñiga-West:I was like, yeah. Sure. And so, like, I found my like, I really mean that. People like, oh, you had this master plan. Like, no.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:No. Like, I mean, I was manifesting. You feel me? Like, I was helping, but, like, it just happened, and it was beautiful. And I think it's because I did something that terrified me.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:When I was a child, I was very shy. No one ever believes that for the way I come off now, and I was like, I would barely talk to a soul. Like, it was just me in a sketchbook, Homie. Like, I don't wanna talk to anybody. I was terrified.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:And then it grew, and then the second and the third. So, it's always been the collaboration of, I wanna say, the global majority. So that's like the global majority is people of color. Right? So I like to use that terminology more like when people say BIPOC.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Right? So like black and brown peoples. I don't care where they're like, the diasporas where you hail from, but, like, it's for Black and Brown people. And so often in the majority of, I wanna say, educational spaces or organizational spaces, we are the afterthought. We're not the forethought.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Right? Like, it's not made for us. It's like, you can also come. You may attend.
Rob Lee:Mhmm.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Right? And I think I wanted to shift and create a place and an environment where we come first. You know, like, creating a table. So that's what started. It was, like, how can I find as many people of color, right, like, global majority people doing the work of art education?
Flavia Zuñiga-West:And that's where I come to the ancestors part. Like, black professors, black teachers, brown teachers have been doing this work for a very long time. People wanna be like, oh, EDI. Like, right, all this, like like, it's been going on for a whole bunch in the homeschool. Right?
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Homeschooling at home in different community centers. Right? Like, this work has been going on, and it has also been subversive. Right? Because they're trying to keep themselves safe in these environments and protect children in all white environments, right, when those things happen or in more predominantly white schools.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Right? So, I think remembering that was really important to me. It's like, who are these people doing it? Because it's a different experience when you are other, for example. Right?
Flavia Zuñiga-West:And then in an institution that is still predominantly white. Right? Like, because majority of our learning institutions are white, function on a premise that is based and indoctrinated into white elitism, right, like college, independent schools at times, right, private schools, like these hold schooling in itself. And so it's a different lived experience to be who we are, walk the life, be with our own community, and then also find each other and give back. So I just wanted to create a space where we're welcome.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:So often we wanna sit at the table. Right? And, like, the Shirley Chisholm and be like, like, you know, like, no, no, no. You know, like, I don't even wanna grab the chair. Like, I'm just gonna go find a
Rob Lee:whole
Flavia Zuñiga-West:new table and invite, like, the other people can come. Like, you know, to think that we don't need, allies or upstanders, I don't usually, I let co conspirators. Like, I want you to get in trouble. I don't want you to tell me after we've left the meeting that someone was out of pocket. I want you in that moment to be like, I was really, I'm really uncomfortable with the way you said this, this, or that.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Right? So I think for me, that's where it comes from. It's creating a community space. It's feeling welcomed, and being prioritized. And that happens in almost every aspect, though, we can always improve, like, within adding voices.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:So registration, for example. Registration first opens only to the global majority, and it's free for all students. Like, white ally coconspirators can't even, like, register until later.
Rob Lee:Yeah.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:We're like, why? And I'm like they're like, that's prejudice. Right? It can't be racist because that's so I'm like so I was like, I don't know. I think it's actually just being, you know, equitable.
Rob Lee:Yeah.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:I know. Why would you say that? I'm like, money and access. Right? Like, the ability to write the grant or have time for the grant or to afford to come to the conference itself.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Conferences are very expensive, like art education conferences or conferences in general. They're expensive. The registration fee, everything. Like the first time we did it the registration fee was $25 and that also includes 2 meals, Yeah. And this time it's 50 but includes 2 meals, like it's like lunch, 2 lunches, happy hour, and then a dance party, and then you're also taking in all the sessions.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:We pay every single presenter because it's not an extractive method, right? Conferences extract from you. They're like, let me make it super comfortable, uncomfortable and complicated, first of all, to even try and propose your idea, like, right, like let me create all this gatekeeping for you in academic language to not even be able to present. And then if you can do that, right, then we're not gonna pay you at all, and then you still have to find your own way to get here. You still have to show up.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:We're not gonna, like, make any kind of comfort comforts for you besides telling you what your AV needs are. That's it. And for us, it's like there's a room where the presenters get to chill because when you present, you're nervous and you need quiet and you need space. Everyone gets paid a little bit of a stipend to honor the fact that they're there. Like, thank you for sharing your knowledge.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:That's your lived experience. And I think so often that is not respected enough or appreciated, but that's also coming from a black feminist lens. Right? Like, the lived experience, that is a form of knowledge. Right?
Flavia Zuñiga-West:So I think, yeah, it's undoing extractive methods, and it's creating, like, a home for people. So that's that's what we do and a lot of communal space so you don't have to be exhausted during a conference. Have you ever been to a conference and you were like, I wanna see this, I wanna see this, I wanna see that, and you're like already exhausted by like 2 sessions and you were like I got to make all these other ones and you start falling into this workhorse very much so back into the system format that doesn't deal with rest or rejuvenation. And I think for me, the template was how can we restore one another and learn from each other? Like, how can we do both of those things?
Flavia Zuñiga-West:And so that's kinda where it started or it lives now.
Rob Lee:Well, thank you. No. That that's not you know, one sounds amazing, and I love sort of the shift of it's it's taking in that lived experience. It's taking in and then listening into, like, alright. Is this the way we should be doing these conferences?
Rob Lee:Is this who should be included, or this who shouldn't be included or prioritized? And just applying things in sort of a different way, and it's just like being able to to grow and then seeing those needs. And it comes from being in the field. It comes from sort of the way one lives and the way one has seen things, and comes from conversations and being in community with peers. And, you know, I've and before I move into this sort of final question, one of the things that I've encountered, and I go back to it, like, I was talking about it earlier as far as, you know, my ascension into sort of kind of being a teacher, being a half teacher, you know, when I mention it or when it's mentioned on my behalf, people light up.
Rob Lee:They're like, you know, I'm glad that you're doing that. That makes sense. That makes sense for someone like you. It's great, isn't it? It's this, it's that.
Rob Lee:And or even this notion, I know here there's a sort of like lack of black male teachers as well, so that's another thing that's kind of there. And, you know, the thing I was sharing, I think, before we got started, that initially my commitment was, I'm just going to do this first half, And my arm was twisted. It's like, We kind of need you. You want to, you should just stay. You should just stay.
Rob Lee:And seeing that and feeling like, one, I was valued and appreciated, and it wasn't this sort of extractive thing, it was just like, no, we want you to be a part of what we're doing here. And it's a mix of folks, and it's not just like, you know, and sort of being introduced to all these different people, it's like this, Rob's a new, glossy thing. It's like I'm being prioritized, and it's new for me because I'm shy. I'm a shy extrovert, and what have you.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:I understand that.
Rob Lee:So it was just one of those things, so seeing it and being around folks. And so the last thing I'll say, absolutely. When there's a conference or something, any type of conference, it can be a conference for fun. It's like it could be a con, you know, like, literally in that group. And I'm like, I'm exhausted.
Rob Lee:I'm all phoned out. I'm tapped out. Or especially if you're going somewhere and you're learning something, because I go to data conferences. Mhmm. I'm I I I can focus.
Rob Lee:I can do a lot. My brain is on overload, and it's just I need that moment to kinda be away from people. So that that notion of that consideration that's there, it's huge, and that sounds great.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Thank you. Yeah. I think it's that. And, also, like, if you're exhausted and you're, like, you don't have any more in the tank, it also makes it really hard to find community. Right?
Flavia Zuñiga-West:An authentic community. Not where you're like, hello. I'm so and so. Take my card. Like, no.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Like, you're just chilling. You're vibing. You're both in a session, and you're like, hey. I really love what you're making. Oh, yeah.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Well, actually, where you teach, like, you know, that that comfortable space. So, I mean, there's so much to it. I think that at least what I wanted it to be, and I feel like that comes into to dreaming. Right? Freedom dreaming as as, you know, it is termed.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:It's like, how can we create these spaces where, like, the community norms are understood? And most conferences don't have community norms. Like, they're not like, this is how you should be acting. Like, this is how you should interact with one another. So that, like, staggered registration, right, accessible and free registrations, especially students, like, at being tiered, paying presenters, having hospitality, like food and things for them, care, thinking about communal care, like, in terms of just feeding people, creating spaces for quiet rooms and downtime.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:And then what else do we do? We just and then accessibility needs. Right? Like, do we have a community for the deaf? We'll have a signer there and the rest of it, and that's also through more.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:But I think it it is taking our time to not only see each other, but I think to pour into one another. Right? So often we think about the labor part. Right? Like, I feel like we're indoctrinated into that.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Right? Like, well, how much should I get? Like, it's very basic. Like, if I'm gonna go to this conference, I need to come back with the stuff, and, like, what stuff? There's so much stuff to come back with, and some of that stuff is is, you know, joy and meeting other people and not feeling alone, and then meeting people who are doing, like, phenomenal work.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Like, that's my favorite part. So the entire conference is curated. Okay. So I find everybody. I have a relationship with every single presenter.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Whether I know them or not, I become and I get to know them, keynote everybody. So, like, the conversations, does that make sense that happen are beautiful because I'm like, oh, you should meet so and so, or, like, you should really take this or, like, I wanted to connect you to this educator. And then it's like this family, right, that starts to to form, and I think we need that. We need to know we're not alone during this time period. And, someone told me something really beautiful, especially about this upcoming conference because it's November 8th, 9th, 10th, and they were like, the way I'm gonna be excited to not be in Florida while I'm dealing with what's happening in the country and to be in this community is gonna be so restorative for me.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Thank you, Flavia. And I was like, I didn't even think about it. Like, it was a date that worked. Like, I'm just gonna be real with you. It was a date that worked.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Like, it's a longer weekend so people could travel because I make that travel, like, work for me. Right? Like, I'm a single mom. Like, I can't be gone that long. So, but little things like that, I think matter.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:And so often we're learning not from one another, right, and I think it's really important to keep the community if, like, 80% of art teachers are white and female, then that leaves us, you know, only so much where then that leaves the global majority as a whole. Okay. And then if you break that down into how everyone identifies, and then, like, usually the male population is one of the smallest also inside of that. Right? So it's like where is that time for people to meet each other and have those moments where you feel safe?
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Because we're in those larger environments. We're code switching. Like, you're not your true self. Yeah. Right?
Flavia Zuñiga-West:So I don't know. That's that I guess that's adding voices in in a nutshell, for for example. Yeah.
Rob Lee:Thank you. And, yeah, I I will say, you know, before this last question is definitely you you answered one of the other ones. That's great. Be before I took this thing, I always had a lot of trepidation and nerves because it's like, you know, you don't wanna give someone bad advice. You don't wanna like, in my head, it's like, I wanna screw these kids up now.
Rob Lee:And I talked to 3 educators that I knew that I knew through doing this podcast. Yeah. And, you know, just really getting their feedback and taking into just taking it on taking the concept of even doing this and asking them. So this notion of community and this the fact that I happen to know each one of these guys just through doing this podcast Yeah. It's like, oh, okay.
Rob Lee:Cool. This was helpful. And literally, they're going out of their way saying, no. This is you you should do this for these reasons, and it's gonna be fulfilling. And the other thing I'll say to that point about you were touching on when folks leave from conventions or I need to add the things.
Rob Lee:Right? We're thinking this sort of cookie cutter approach. That's what we're indoctrinated with, as you touched on. And, you know, when I do this and I'm like, I've enjoyed the conversation. I enjoy having the conversation with people.
Rob Lee:It's like, well, how much money did you make from it? How many downloads did you get? I was like, I don't care about that. And they look like, people will look at me like I'm bugging. And it's just like, that doesn't matter to me in that way.
Rob Lee:Sure, you get hooked on occasion, but when you reset and get to sort of your base, it's you know, with all of the challenges, with all of the different things that present themselves, I always go back to my my sort of why. And that's the advice that I share, especially in in being an educator and doing doing this piece as far as crafting a lane for, like, educating with this sort of podcast thing, not being an audio engineer but doing the whole macro thing as a podcaster and doing the education component to it. So with my attempt to segue into this sort of final question, So balancing, you know, multiple roles, you know, being a mom, artist, educator, advocate, all of the things that are required of us. I know I was exhausted yesterday. I was over there rambling last night.
Rob Lee:I was trying to do a podcast. I was like, yeah, blah blah blah. What advice would you share with others who are looking to integrate multiple aspects, who are interested in this sort of work and they're trying to balance all of the things? What would be that that biggest that that prime piece of advice you would share to someone?
Flavia Zuñiga-West:I think it's what my mentors tell me. Seek out mentors, first of all. Just period. Like, you should have mentors in your life. They're gonna come at different times.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:They're not gonna always be who you think they are, but reach out and ask the question. Find the person who you wanna ask the question to. What would I tell somebody? You can't do it all. That you absolutely can't do it all.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:I think, you know, when people talk about, you know, you can have a slice. You can have a really good slice. You know? You can't have the whole pie or the cake, but you can have a slice. You have to pace yourself.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:You have to rest, and you have to have authentic people in your corner. You know? Like, you gotta have people who are gonna, like, come, like, in a in a good way, come for you and be like, I don't know what you're doing, but you're doing too much and you need to stop. You need that. As much as you need, like, the hype crew to be like, go.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Go.
Rob Lee:Yeah. Yeah.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:You know? And you need both of those people, but I rest a lot. But people say the same thing. They're like, how much money are you making off the conference? I was like, that's not the point.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:And they're like, are you doing the conference forever? I'm like, I don't know. And they're like, how do you not know? I'm like, how am I supposed to know everything? Like, I'm out here living life just like you.
Rob Lee:I don't
Flavia Zuñiga-West:know what, will call me or what is needed, and I think that's where comfortability with self. Right? Like, I'm not in it for ego. I do believe our children deserve to learn art in another way that isn't just the elements and the principles of art that allow them to understand where the the heart and the soul work are in making, and that art has and remains the most powerful, vehicle for human connection. Right?
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Like, we've been painting on walls since the beginning of time, and now we'd be tagging on walls and making murals. And most of those have no written words at all. And that means it's the most accessible way for all of us to connect with one another because there's no hierarchy or issue of access in terms of, right, like reading or, things like that. But I think you gotta trust your gut, like intuition never lies, and seek out mentors and rest. Like, I go through, like, almost once I do a conference, I'm done for you.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:That's why they're biannual. I have a whole year of not even thinking about the conference. I just, like, read books and do my thing, like, it doesn't even pop in my head. You gotta rest, and you gotta be loved on. And that's by, like, your community and your friends or if you have partners.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:I don't have one of those. So yeah. But I mean, like, people who care about you, and keep you level headed and joy. My god. Do we need joy?
Flavia Zuñiga-West:In a world today, I think you need joy. And that doesn't mean you gotta be irresponsible about it, but, like, sing and dance and tell the people you love that you love them. Right? I think it's the authenticity of life and what you want. It's okay if you don't wanna do it anymore.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Like if one day I wake up and I said like, I don't wanna do it anymore and a whole bunch of people come for me, I'll be like, that's not fair. Like it's just it's not fair. Right? Like you can be upset, I suppose. But like, you know, I think we also create sustainable practices so other people can carry on our work, right?
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Like, it's a baton game. No one can do this Jedi work as a my former teacher, Ronaldo Macias, used to call it, you know, like, this justice equity, you know, diversity inclusion work forever. Like, it's draining. Like, we need each other, and you gotta take breaks. Right?
Flavia Zuñiga-West:And and you have to also make sure there's enough community, right, to do it. So yeah.
Rob Lee:It's a great way to sort of wrap up the real part of the podcast and just definitely very important things that we're touching on. This this has been a good one. This has been a good one.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Oh, thank you. I was working. I was like, I think I'm all over the place. It's the ADHD, but you just kind
Rob Lee:of pull
Flavia Zuñiga-West:up and you roll with it. It works.
Rob Lee:No. No. You're you're good with it. You're good with it. So I got 4 rapid fire questions.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Oh, okay.
Rob Lee:And because you you've probably mentioned multiple of these things, Dorn, and so it's a nice little callback, some of these these questions. Okay. But, you know, as I tell everyone, it's sort of like I said what I said is sort of like the briefest version of it because people are like, well, here's the context for a while, while. I like, you know, the color blue. It's like, you don't need to give any context.
Rob Lee:Yeah. All right. So here's the first one. What is your favorite travel destination?
Flavia Zuñiga-West:My family's home in Oregon.
Rob Lee:K. So a lot of times we talk about the cookout. That may have been mentioned earlier, we're only gonna play the wall at the cookout. Okay. You're not playing the wall.
Rob Lee:What's the first thing you're getting to eat at the cookout?
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Ribs.
Rob Lee:You see, see, we're we're friends. We're friends on that too. That's great.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Oh, they're ribs. I mean, but then I got questions about the ribs, but, like, it's the ribs. Okay. Who's pick out is it? Right?
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Well, I would just go.
Rob Lee:I wanna yell, but who made these, though?
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Lot of questions. So that's follow-up to the follow-up. Like, who made this? Whose house am I at?
Rob Lee:Usually I'm the guy on The Grill. I was in a different state. I went down to Texas for some, again, a wrestling show. And I was like walking, I'm just, you know, big dude looking astounding dude. He's like, man, like, you be like, you need to be behind a grill right now.
Rob Lee:And I was like,
Flavia Zuñiga-West:what does that even mean, bro?
Rob Lee:He was like, I feel like you can throw down. I was like, I can. Thank you for acknowledging me, new stately person. I've never met you, bro. What was the last book you read?
Rob Lee:Oh. Doesn't mean finished. You know, you're going like, hey, I just cracked this one open. I'm reading it. This is interesting.
Rob Lee:Because I'm an audiobook guy, which is kind of cheating, but
Flavia Zuñiga-West:I I do it all. I don't know. I read, like, 3 books at a time. That's not a flex. It's, like, because of the interest of different things.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:So I just reread, community as rebellion, a syllabus for surviving academia as a woman of color by doctor Gloria Garcinia Pena. And then I'm an art person, so I was reading a book called or looking at a photography book by Jamil Shvaj, called The Last Sunday in June.
Rob Lee:Nice.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Oh, yeah. Those are the last things I think I read, and then I read articles and things. But, yeah, sci fi is due again, though.
Rob Lee:So you then you will probably appreciate the attempt in this last question then. So Yeah. We we've we've talked about Jedi, right, as it relates to sort of the lane. And, you know, we're gonna kinda delve into sort of the nerdy, more geekier side to it. So we know who the Jedi are.
Rob Lee:And when it comes to the education lane and so the DEI work lane, who are the Sith?
Flavia Zuñiga-West:I feel like that answers itself.
Rob Lee:You you Drake you Drake is your response, which is a great answer to that.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Yes. Yes. Absolutely. I was like, you know who the Sith are.
Rob Lee:I thought you'd appreciate that question.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:I do. I did appreciate it. My daughter was born on, May 4th, so that's what's kinda. Yeah. So she's strong with the force.
Rob Lee:One thing that I do and this that was kinda it. One thing that I do Okay.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:I was like, that was wrong. Who are they, sir? I don't know. You tell me. The people call us DI persons.
Rob Lee:One one of the things that I did in my first job in higher ed, because that's that's the industry that I I I work in mostly. Mhmm. Mhmm. My first job, I would do this thing I call palplining. And I would just sit there in the background.
Rob Lee:I was like, hey, hey, hey. You should do that, man. Just egging someone on, just in being an agitator in the best and let the hate fuel you.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Oh, lord. No. I mean, like, you know, whatever, journey of the hero we wanna use, right, and its larger purpose, or the dichotomies, it's still binary oftentimes. Right? And so I think it's, like, always holding the fact that it's choices people make.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Right? Like, there's no, like, particularly, like, good, evil land or, you know, like, the Jedi. I think it's how you wield how you understand power and how you wield it, and I think that's what comes back into what I say. Like, there's not just power over people. There's power, like, with people, and there's power, you know, within.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:I know those different hierarchies or or concepts of power, really, to move beyond the hierarchy or the binary are so important, I think, in our community care. Right? Like, that's how you get community being rebellion. Right? Like, that's how community can uplift us and care for us.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:You know? What is in that? But, no, I dig that. That was a good question. Who are the Sith?
Flavia Zuñiga-West:You're funny. That was
Rob Lee:that was all
Flavia Zuñiga-West:that was solid. Like, that was, like, a round of applause.
Rob Lee:Well, thank you. I I I try. I try. Yeah. Yeah.
Rob Lee:So in these these final moments, there are 2 things that I would like to do. 1, I wanna thank you so much for coming on and spending some time with me.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Thank you for asking me.
Rob Lee:Absolutely. And and 2, you know, shameless plugs. Where can folks, you know, check out and, you know, kind of check into adding voices and sort of when that's coming up and, you know, the educators that are listening and all that good stuff. It's shameless plug time. So anything that you wanna, you know, talk about in these final moments, the floor is yours.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:Thank you. Shameless plugs. The adding voices conference is coming up November 8th through 10th. Right now, all global majority members can, register. So I would get on that right now.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:We're also looking for sponsors. Sponsors, like, vary anywhere from $50 to all the way up, so, like, come through and support us. It's free for all students. That includes high school students, so bring your students if you'd like. Again, it's at Moore College of Art and Design in Philly.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:I'm not of Philly, but I love me some Philly, so it's been a wonderful home for the conference. This is the 2nd year coming. So you can go to addingvoices.com, addingvoices conference on Instagram. If you're looking for me, if you look up Flavia z w, pretty much on Instagram, I will pop up. I got a website too.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:What else? I'm running some cohorts for social justice and art education right now so that art teachers and arts teachers, really, art educators and performing art educators can meet and talk about the work that they're doing and continue to grow. And I have a whole bunch of workshops coming out this August. Let's see. Decolonizing your painting curriculum, Black feminist theory in the arts classroom, and I think something on the effect of, like, equity and social justice in the arts classroom and communal care.
Flavia Zuñiga-West:So come through. Those are all in Eventbrite, but, yeah, it would be great to have anybody in here that's not just global majority. Like, anybody can come through. All are welcome as long as you're welcoming.
Rob Lee:And there you have it, folks. I wanna again thank Flavia Zuniga West for coming on to the podcast and sharing a bit of her story and telling us about adding voices. And I'm Rob Lee saying that there's art, culture, and community in and around your neck of the woods. You've just gotta look for it.
