Welcome to The Truth in His Art. I am your host, Rob Lee. Thank you for tuning in to my conversations at the intersection of arts, culture and community. Do remember to leave a review, subscribe, share. Help us get the word out there.
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Rob Lee:My next guest without much further ado, I want to get into the day's interview. My next guest is an editorial comic artist who holds degrees in studio art and comics, and is known for his work in Hyperallergic and the margins. Please welcome Greg c m Campbell. Welcome to the podcast.
Craig CM Campbell:Hello. Hello. Hi, Rob.
Rob Lee:How are
Craig CM Campbell:you living? Man, I'm
Rob Lee:living in mansions and credits.
Craig CM Campbell:Alright. That's what I wanna hear. Yeah. See,
Rob Lee:generally, when I when I do the interview, right, and I start off and someone's wearing glasses, I always acknowledge that, but I'm starting to get to that stage because I'm committing to the beard that shout out and thank you for having a beard, brother.
Craig CM Campbell:Yeah. You gotta rock it when you got it. You know you know how many kids in Somalia could use a beard right now?
Rob Lee:That's good. That's good. So, you know, starting off, one thing, and I'm and I'm glad we were able to chat a little bit before going into this and even before we get into sort of the the deeper questions. I wanna get, you know, sort of your introduction of yourself and your work in your own words. Like, who's Craig Centimeters Campbell?
Craig CM Campbell:As far as my work is concerned, I'm a cartoonist. I feel like I I stand 10 toes deep on that one. I am a cartoonist, a storyteller. I do write. I, do illustration.
Craig CM Campbell:I, do some organizing, some programming, for CXC. There are a bunch of things that I do. I do what I can, when I can. But I am a self identified cartoonist. I make comics and tell stories.
Craig CM Campbell:That is essentially the way I see myself on a professional level.
Rob Lee:Thank you. It's it's it's important to get it directly from the person. We have these glossy sort of, online bios and so on. I've I've seen what I do written as something that doesn't seem like I can identify with it. I'll say, oh, no.
Rob Lee:That's what I I used the term word wizard, but, you know, and everyone doesn't throw that out there.
Craig CM Campbell:I I learned how to write a artist statement, so I know how to, expound on what it is I do and how I think. And, it's like I could read it and you'd be like, man, that's deep. I'm like, I draw pictures, people.
Rob Lee:I mean, it's it's like, you know, when you have those resume parsers, it's almost like you gotta have the artistic one, and it's like, did you put spaces in there and these different terms? It was like, no. I didn't.
Craig CM Campbell:So, one of the biggest influences in terms of my understanding of art was Hennessy Youngman, those Hennessy Youngman videos. And because the thing about it, it was really something that broke down that a part of being an artist is to be, pretentious and kinda play a role. I do consider myself pretentious. I am a person who likes to project value onto things I know I know have no inherent value. And I think the the grounding thing in, engaging with pretension is being self aware enough to know there is no inherent value.
Rob Lee:Mhmm. Mhmm.
Craig CM Campbell:It's projected value. And so if I could convince you that something is worth something, then I I feel like I've given you something. You know?
Rob Lee:But before we got started, you said you weren't a salesman.
Craig CM Campbell:I ain't selling nothing. I'm just giving you something.
Rob Lee:Ain't nobody paying me for it.
Craig CM Campbell:That's the problem.
Rob Lee:Be paying time, brother.
Craig CM Campbell:Yes. You
Rob Lee:paying attention. So this this sort of like this is a sort of 2 part follow-up question to an introductory one. So earliest creative memory, like, you know, was it comics related? Was it storytelling related? Talk a bit about one of those really, like, early memories that stick out for you.
Craig CM Campbell:Yeah. I I I could actually pinpoint the single memory, that sticks sticks out. My sister, shout out, Opal. She had me and my brother, Greg. Shout out my parents for naming us Craig and Greg.
Craig CM Campbell:We were, she was babysitting us, and, what she would do to get us to just calm down is draw out of, comic strips in the newspaper. And so my first memory was, her doing this and having a drawing contest where me and my brother would draw, Odie from Garfield.
Rob Lee:Nice.
Craig CM Campbell:And so my first drawing that I remember is a drawing of Odie in competition with my brother as my sister was trying to babysit us. And so that was comic memory 1, art memory 1. It wasn't Dennis the Menace. It wasn't the Calvin and Hobbs. I don't think Calvin and Hobbs was a thing back then.
Craig CM Campbell:Might have been, but it was Garfield.
Rob Lee:So what and and that's and that's great to have have that because, you know, comic strips. Right? We we have those we have those as a sort of reference points as, like, when you get that newspaper, I remember back in the day, you know, not too too long ago as we were talking about, you know, that year before 40 as it were, you know, I I would go pick up, like, the newspaper for my mom, and I'm like, yeah, I wanna already pre extract this comic section because I'm a need that.
Craig CM Campbell:Yep. Yep. And it'd be one of those things on Sunday. It's all in color. I mean, I would say that, like, comic strips have been a huge part of what I do.
Craig CM Campbell:I remember, I'm drawing at this time. This is in high school. But one of the things that I would do is, when I was in high school is when boondocks came out.
Rob Lee:And
Craig CM Campbell:I didn't realize this until much later in in life that, like, I started reading on the 3rd strip. It was the star wars episode 1 strip. And so actively, I was like, how long has this been out? I don't know because, I'm not as well versed on the Internet because the Internet isn't as big of a thing right now. Right.
Craig CM Campbell:But I remember being religious about just reading boondocks every day in study hall, just boondocks. And so I remember that being huge, especially because I I I lived, north of Chicago
Rob Lee:Mhmm.
Craig CM Campbell:Like Evanston. And, and so living in Evanston and then moving to Skokie and having, like, when I was much younger, lived in Chicago. There was this relationship that I had with that story where you had, black kids who moved to the suburbs and had to engage. And, I think that I related to that because at that age because I don't actually, that's a fun question. How old was Huey?
Craig CM Campbell:You know? I don't know. I assumed like 8, you know? I relate to that, that, that character a lot. So, I don't know.
Craig CM Campbell:That comic strip brought me back to where I needed to be.
Rob Lee:That's that's that's great. You know, when we have we have those things, like, I, you know, I've mentioned on this podcast before that I wanted to be a comic artist when I was younger. That was that was the thing that I was into, and I thought that was gonna be the path. It was not, but I thought it was gonna be the path. And, and I would when when when folks might ask, like, so what what were you drawing?
Rob Lee:I was like, look, these are just rip offs. It was like Wildcats and X Men. These are unabashed rip offs. So, you know, but those were my those were my influences. Those were the things that were interesting to me.
Rob Lee:I wanted to be around a covert action team. And for you, what what sorts of, like, comic or or art, you know, maybe have a delineation between the 2, you know, as far as, like, there's that fine art side and then there's sort of that that comic side. Not to say that one is better than the other, but there are 2 different lanes. What what were your what were the things you were into growing up? Was there a certain artist that you really liked growing up?
Rob Lee:Was there a certain, you know, presentation? Was there a certain style of art that you were really into growing up?
Craig CM Campbell:That's a a really good question. You know, I feel like I I thought of the previous ones you mentioned, I had the stories down. As far as comics, by the time I was in high school, when I wasn't reading The Boondocks, I remember I was huge in the spawn, Image Comics had just come out, and I was really not like reading reading. Like, I read comic strips, but I wasn't reading comic books. It was just books full of drawings and I would copy things out of those drawings, out of those books and draw.
Craig CM Campbell:But I wasn't really reading them and following them, but I would just buy random comics Yeah. Off the shelf. I wouldn't follow in stories or anything like that early on. As far as art, fine art, I think I was just taking it. Oh, do you know what?
Craig CM Campbell:Honestly, I was huge into, like, like, graffiti, like tagging. Like, my favorite movie at that time was like style wars. My brother just got 2 turntables and, like, he was collecting records and I couldn't I was allowed to touch them,
Rob Lee:you know,
Craig CM Campbell:but I couldn't I couldn't play with them, you know. At that time, music was huge for me. So, like, a lot of I remember I was really into trying to, like, draw these logos. Like, I thought, like, like, the def squad had the dopest logo, because you remember the def squad had the 3 blocks?
Rob Lee:Yeah. Yeah.
Craig CM Campbell:I thought so so deaf had the worst logo on earth.
Rob Lee:It's like, what is these Afrem buffs?
Craig CM Campbell:Yeah. No no hate on Jermaine Dupri, but, like, actively, I would just look at these logos because there was a hip hop aesthetic, but there was a refinement as far as an illustrative approach that I found really engaging. And so I had comics. I had illustration that caught my eye that I kinda clung to. I remember often, kind of having a relationship between graffiti that I would see in books, like, you know, the you would see the Polaroids of, like, full like, buses stacked up and walls and things like that.
Craig CM Campbell:I can't even remember the name of the magazines, like, but I would relate those to, like, album covers I would see where, like, I would write out names and do, like, textual things Yeah. And, like, like, draw these things that I felt like were iconic. So that ended up being something I remember really clinging on to. Like, copying comics and making up logos. I and I don't even know how what I was gonna do with it.
Craig CM Campbell:I don't know what I was thinking. I just thought it was cool, I guess. But
Rob Lee:no. That's that's really dope. Like, you know, I had this this period where I used to try to draw the covers of Wizard Magazine. That was that's the lane I was in, and I'm in my home studio now, and we're all so fortunate. I'm in my home studio now, and I keep all of my sort of, like, creative stuff in here, whether it be when I did this painting thing for 6 months, 8 years ago, I just wanted to do a painting 1 per month or what have you, just as a challenge.
Rob Lee:And, you know, my comics in here as well, all my DVDs, and I'm looking at one right now, one painting right now that is clearly I'm inspired by, what is it, Lowen Theory, you know, so Okay. That sort of the color scheme and sort of what I was taking from it, and the kicker is I may have seen that cover one time, and I was like, these are the colors I'm gonna use. This is the aesthetic I'm going with, and put this this thing out there, and I was like, no, I saw this in my mind's eye and I put it out there and it's directly connected to hip hop. It's directly connected to that that sort of album. And even a note on sort of the hip hop branding component, like, if you saw, like, a Public Enemy jacket or something with that logo on the back or anything in that vein, like, the branding component of hip hop stuff, it definitely lended itself to, I need to make that.
Craig CM Campbell:Well, and I I would say as far as hip hop, hip hop gave, this narrative of one thing. I think when you're looking at something like Star Wars, the idea of making art for the sake of art. You know? You are tagging the side of a train because you want somebody from another borough to see your name going through their neighborhood. But the other thing is hip hop kinda created this thing where this idea of monetization because that's when fat farm was coming out.
Craig CM Campbell:That's when Sean John was coming out. That's when every, hip hop artist had a record label.
Rob Lee:Yeah.
Craig CM Campbell:And you began to kind of connect to an aesthetic. And I think, like, right now, now that we brought up logos, I think part of what I was thinking about was, like, I was thinking about the fashion and the aesthetics of hip hop and how that could be something that was monetized, and so logos and things like that became huge. And so, like, I was never illustrating full scenes. I was never like I'm thinking about a single image right now of, like, a, like a face that was kind of a loony tune. Like, yo, alright.
Craig CM Campbell:I'm jumping on a tangent. You might catch me doing this every once in a while. It sounds stuttering. But, you remember those t shirts with Bugs Bunny and Dom and and Daffy Duck? Yep.
Craig CM Campbell:Like full hip hop attire. You're like, cowboy boots. Things like that. Yeah. I remember, iceberg sweaters.
Craig CM Campbell:My dad brought bought me an iceberg sweater with Linus, and that was like people at school, like, well, Black people at school lost them.
Rob Lee:So, though, so, oh, that's that's funny. It's funny because, my brother's name is Rudy. So when that iceberg joy came out, he was like, yo. I need everyone.
Craig CM Campbell:Yeah. Yeah. So actively, I remember iceberg being a big deal, and you wanted cartoons on your clothes. You wanted that, intellectual property to be present on all your attire. Especially because it was refined.
Craig CM Campbell:Like, I remember that sweater, like, yesterday. And it was just like a tan sweater with, like, blue text and, like, Linus on profile with over his shoulders. And so, like, this like, cartoons were very engaged with hip hop at that time. Maybe it was Space Jam. I don't know.
Craig CM Campbell:Maybe it was Maybelline. Who knows? So
Rob Lee:Nice. Nice. There there was a little known show. This this is a thing. Right?
Rob Lee:This is, almost a scene checking thing. Because because because of that that sort of connection, you're really on point there. I remember I was really big into MTV when they did the animation blocks. Right? And Yep.
Rob Lee:They had this one joint that was the hip hop equivalent to Beavis and Butt Head, and I believe it was called Station 0. And it was, like, it didn't last long, but I used to watch that in the morning and, you know, I think these were guys that were, like, in New York or what have you, and it it worked. It worked for whatever reason, and it was sort of that this is this has that hip hop equivalent. And I remember at a point, they tried to do an animated version of Friday. I remember that as well.
Craig CM Campbell:I'm yo. You you're schooling me right now. The animated version of Friday?
Rob Lee:I believe that was the
Craig CM Campbell:main about that.
Rob Lee:It was on they they don't wanna hear about that. They and I'm ready for that conversation. But, yeah, I I I see when that that crossover is there, and and so the last thing that I'll I'll say in it as far as the commercialization and monetization of it, It's just like you have this hip hop thing, you have that aesthetic, and when it crosses over into, like, video games, like, when you have, what is it, Def Jam, Fight for New York, Vendetta, and all of that stuff, it's just, like, they almost have, like, their logos in there.
Craig CM Campbell:There there was, I think, hip hop present in even, like, ToeJam and Earl, like, had a hip hop energy to it. Like, there was a weird time when, when Fred and Barney were rapping for a Free Pebbles commercial dressed like Run DMC.
Rob Lee:Right.
Craig CM Campbell:Like, actively, they're like, hip hop was permeating in a way that it doesn't now. Because I think there was a sweet spot. I'm a call it the comic spot where people ain't taking you too seriously, and so you could be a little goofy.
Rob Lee:Yeah.
Craig CM Campbell:And at this point, like and also, like, there like, there's desire to make sure kids had access to it. And so there was a a place where you could have a little bit more fun. Like, right now, hip hop is maybe a little too sexy, maybe a little too sexy. I'm not even saying, like, it's violin or nothing. It's like it may be a little too sexy.
Rob Lee:I don't disagree with that and, you know, I've had this conversation recently. I was like, look, I just I just want the fun thing as as we're recording this, and then I'll move into this next question. As we're recording this on I believe this is Biggie's birthday, you know?
Craig CM Campbell:It's like goddamn.
Rob Lee:It's just like, you know, this is we're recording this May 21st, and we have to really set that stage. You know. You know, when people ask me, like, you know, so who are we choosing all of this different stuff and it's not really a conversation about that, and I would say my reasoning. I was like, because it was fun. It it had a funner sort of thing with it.
Craig CM Campbell:Yeah. I think my problem with most media this is not just hip hop. It's with music. It's with books. It's it's with art.
Craig CM Campbell:I think that this is highlighted in, this, the recent film American fiction. It's more about the narrowing of what can be what stories can be told and kind of really locketing locking in a marketing plan to commit to before actually examining the art that's being created. And so I like the art that's being created. I like the sexy stuff. My issue is that it's so narrow in the scope of what can be made that actively it doesn't allow for a plethora of stories.
Craig CM Campbell:Actively, even though I think that, like, I don't know, sex sexy red, cool. Like, dope. But, like, I don't wanna say there should be a kid in play. Let me think about somebody else.
Rob Lee:I'll give I'll give you this sort of thing. I I think this is when you were describing that, sort of the narrowing of it, I immediately thought of the video for socket to me. The Missy Elliott joint where it's like they're dressed like Media Man or what have you, and I was like, this is fire.
Craig CM Campbell:That's the thing. Okay. Yeah. Okay. That's a great like, there was a point in the in time where you had, the Busta Rhymes video, which was goofy, silly, and fun.
Craig CM Campbell:Mhmm. And it was right next to, you know, like, a Wu Tang video, which might have been, like, super like like, we are in an alley shooting a video.
Rob Lee:Yeah.
Craig CM Campbell:So, like, the seriousness, the tone, there was a diversity. And I wouldn't say that there wasn't there was still crossover. You could still see a collab with Busta Rhymes and ODB. Yeah. There wasn't this complete segregation of the fun.
Craig CM Campbell:You know? Like, even the fact that, like, Wu Tang is a great example because, like like, one cannot question the credibility of the Wu Tang Clan, but also you can't question the nerd cred of the Wu Tang Clan. Yeah. Like, actively, they are they exist in that way. And that's something that I think we need more of, personally.
Craig CM Campbell:That's my opinion. I think it exists. I just think that there needs to be more, like, shone, shined Yeah. Shunned on on that.
Rob Lee:I I I will say this. I have a Wu Tang Clan pendant on my joint back in the day. That's the necklace I had, me and my brother, because our actual last names begin with a w. So I was, like, yes, for that. And it's, like, that's the woo right there that you're wearing, brother.
Rob Lee:It's like, don't you worry about that. So I wanna move into sort of this question about, CMC Comics. What was the inspiration? In starting that, was it was it driven, and I think it's a good sort of spot based on what we were just touching on, was it driven by sort of a lack of outlets? What what was the driver behind it that were you know, that kinda inspired that that creation?
Craig CM Campbell:Yeah. I mean, I I think that's nailing ahead. I don't wanna overcomplicate it actively, despite the fact that I I felt my work was of quality. And there were times where I had different discussions about my work, where my work was pitched, and, I would get feedback about my work, from different publishers. And either it was like an aesthetic need to be changed when everything was very specifically pointed, or a narrative element was something that wasn't reflective of what was popularized.
Craig CM Campbell:I felt like no one was gonna make my work. And I I could be right. I could be wrong. Who knows? Maybe I'm delusional.
Craig CM Campbell:Maybe I was immature. Maybe my work wasn't up to par. But actively, I felt like as far as looking at the way a lot of market systems work, there's a, there's a saying that, I I've heard. I don't know if this is like a fun thing, but like, it's like, why is it so hot right now? Why is it super hot right now?
Craig CM Campbell:I think of like Zoolander right now. Like, you know, it's so hot right now. Like, the idea that there was a point in time where I was very willing to engage with criteria and that I would make work in the framework of that criteria.
Rob Lee:Sure.
Craig CM Campbell:But actively, it didn't reflect a perspective that somebody wanted.
Rob Lee:Right.
Craig CM Campbell:And I'm like, well, I don't fully understand. These are a list of things that you said to hit and it was like, well, that's off. And I've I've talked to people about black media and, the scope of black media and what can be said, what can be done. I don't think there's nearly as much explore exploration in media. Sure.
Craig CM Campbell:I think most people right now, it's difficult to market a lot of things. I mean, looking at publishing what? Last I checked, I think this was an article that came out in 2021. I believe it said that, 49% of book sales are not new books. Mhmm.
Craig CM Campbell:And that number had shifted. It, like, had gone up from, like, 10 years prior. And so it becomes harder and harder to penetrate an industry that everybody's backlogged on where they gotta catch up on the reading. Everybody's catching up on the reading. You know, everyone got books from 2018 they haven't touched yet.
Craig CM Campbell:And so that that that makes it harder to sell books. And when an industry is suffering a lot of changes, riskier bets become less viable. Mhmm. With that in mind, I'm not, like, mad. You know?
Craig CM Campbell:I'm not, like, bitter or anything about it, but I understand that there may not be a space currently available for me to tell the stories I wanna tell. And so actively creating CMC comics was kind of my avenue to do that. And, I I also currently have a friend that the only other person that is, you know, publishing under that moniker in some way is, my friend Adam Roberts, who is currently incarcerated and makes work that we correspond with. And so being able to table his work and share his work with people have been, a really big deal for me. So, there are just things that I wanna see in the world.
Craig CM Campbell:And, like, I don't it's yet been presented to me an avenue to do that in a way that I I could respect what I was doing or enjoy what I was doing. And so, you know, sometimes you gotta treat it like crochet. You just make. Just make.
Rob Lee:No. That that's that's great. I mean, we I think we're on the the the same page when it comes to that. And and thank you for for for for walking us through because, you know, I I've recently driven and dove back into, the death of the art the artist, book that I've I've read before, and I'm diving back in. And he's literally touching on that that thing that you're saying as far as the original sort of work, and we want these things that aren't as risky, that that are wins.
Rob Lee:And, you know, I have sort of this east coast perspective that's, you know, I I like how you were describing it. Mine is a little bit more rough around the edges, a little bit more wu tang, gritty alley, but it's literally like I have this thing, like, you know, dudes in suits don't have taste, and I I try not to be completely, but I'm I don't think I'm too far off in that I don't quite get it or it's this or it's that or even when specifically when it comes to I've gone to cons, I go to a lot of cons, right, and I see people with their work, and like I said, I'm interested in comics, I'll buy people stuff, and you see a dude and, like, your work kinda looks like you guys are using the same prompt, like, this is giving me real mid journey right now. But then when the pitch comes there because it's personal selling, like, I've bought a bunch of books that is just to support the person Yes. And then I might check it and read it, but I go to any of these cons with, like, 2 to $300 to try to, 1, network, but, 2, also, I'm just, like, I'm gonna buy a book.
Rob Lee:I'm gonna buy a couple of books. And, you know, I asked, I was like, tell me about the work. It's like, man, so you like Star Wars. Right? And I was like, dude, don't don't give me something, like, what make yours I don't want Afro Star Wars.
Rob Lee:You know, give me something that feels unique. That's the selling point. Like, I'm here. I'm talking to you. So there's a certain short shorthand nerd shorthand.
Rob Lee:You know what I mean?
Craig CM Campbell:Actually, it's it's interesting. So, I have, like, a 45 minute lecture on the concept of originality. Shout out to all my students who heard that lecture. I know how to summarize it. I'll say it real quick.
Craig CM Campbell:When it comes to the question of originality, I think of originality the same way I think about style. It's none of my concern. Like, it's it's like, I don't think an artist can, like a a a professor of mine, once told me, she said, you're only as original as your references are obscure. The fact is that, like, if you wanna be original, what that means, you need to go to a library, you need to go watch Public Access TV from 1980. I could recommend some wild deep cuts.
Craig CM Campbell:You need to catch Nick at night and go read some books that nobody ever read. And then whatever comes out of your face, people would be like, what are you talking about? That's so original. You're so special. But, like, actively, like, originality to me is not the point.
Craig CM Campbell:My my question for you, like, when people are like, it's my style. I wanna make something original. If originality is a goal, if developing a style is a goal, actively, you are trying to do something that is inevitable and gonna happen. Kurt Vonnegut once said, about writing nonfiction versus, science fiction. He said, don't worry about writing writing about yourself.
Craig CM Campbell:It's gonna happen anyways. Your voice is gonna penetrate who you are as an individual. You can't help the fact that you are the only person who is like you. You. And bridging the gap is not about originality.
Craig CM Campbell:Bridging the gap is finding a language that could connect you with other people. And usually you have to do that through unoriginal means. That's why we need genre tropes. That's why we need genre conventions. That's why we need, things to bridge gaps.
Craig CM Campbell:And so your your originality, how original you are is about, to me, honesty and vulnerability. If you are vulnerable and you are honest about who you are, people will both relate to you and bridge a gap between themselves and where you're at. And that is the sense of originality that they're getting, that you are original. You your existence is original. You are your style.
Craig CM Campbell:You are original. Everything else is just bridging a gap between what's in here and what's out there. I think that's it is pretty soft. That that 1:1:45 minutes.
Rob Lee:I mean, that I mean, it's so no tight. No tight. You know, it's it's it's like it's like that thing where it's like, you know, what's that that famous quote that Bruce Lee joined as my style is no style, that whole thing? No. It's it's a version of it and when I, you know, like, you know, I dove back into because, you know, the references.
Rob Lee:Right? You know, I have the, you know, the Austin Kleon stuff and all of that and it was like, oh, this is just gentleman thievery. That's just what it is. This is like, these are my references and I look at some obscure stuff, and it's just like and and and and and I'm I'd be remiss if I didn't mention this. You know, we were talking about the Wu Tang earlier.
Rob Lee:Right? And the Wu Tang, how old am I? But we were talking earlier, and, you know, you get the nerd thing because you know your people when you hear, like, yo, like, Big John Stubb, my middle name, Mud. It's like, you're wrestling you're referencing wrestling. It's like, you're a nerd.
Craig CM Campbell:Well and and I think that's what really connects with DaWoo is actively they are human beings. Like, they are so human Mhmm. In their engagement. And what makes them human is the fact they are not, like, 100% hardcore all the time.
Rob Lee:Right.
Craig CM Campbell:They are like, when you hear, like, a a lot of rappers would say some wild nerd shit, then it was just like it would bridge this gap because they were consuming the same EDU consumer. You know, one of my favorite stories, about, like, genres, I love subgenres. I'm I'm a big fan of genre and tropes and all these things. But, the relationship between, like, wushu films and blaxploitation And the fact that it was, the fact that Harlem Theaters would buy these Shaw Brothers movies and get bad, like, dubbings of them and play them at the same time as they were playing Shaft. And, eventually, somebody was like, yo.
Craig CM Campbell:What we need to do is put some, like, like, kung fu in ours and and, like, the the the the cross pollination. Like, that was original in the most unoriginal way. You know what I mean? Like like, their inability to, fully replicate something that they thought was cool Yeah. Turned into, like, coffee.
Rob Lee:That's dope. That's dope. It's and and and I love the as the professor hat comes on and we're like, knowledge is being dropped. I'm like, I hope y'all listening to that. Oh, man.
Rob Lee:It's got some some some By
Craig CM Campbell:the way, for anybody who doesn't know I'm talking about, the, coffee the movie, not like a drink. Just for those for the uninitiated.
Rob Lee:Yeah. I was there. I was there with you. I was like, man, we you know what I'm saying?
Craig CM Campbell:Hey, you know? Shout out to Pam Gregg.
Rob Lee:Shout out indeed. So let's talk about, current work right now, recent work. You know, let's talk about sort of what that workflow looks like from, you know, sort of that initial idea to sort of, you know, that that finish work or near finish work because I know some of you visual types. Yeah. I ain't quite done yet, brother.
Craig CM Campbell:I I I like to be fully transparent about what I do and how I do it because actively, I mean, it is a mess. And, I think that I I hope that, like, young artists are able to learn from it. I really hope that people could, develop both realistic expectations and understand that it is pretty fun and it is pretty cool, but it is, like, it's wild. Like, I I like, being an independent cartoonist is not, mainstream cartoonist. If you have a comics team where you have your writer, your, penciler separate from your anchor, separate from your colorist, and you have an editor who's operating as a project manager and is not your copy editor who's actually taking care of a lot of the writing and the continuity errors, you have a massive team of people putting out books monthly.
Craig CM Campbell:Alright? So curb your enthusiasm when your favorite cartoonist when when you're thinking Aaron McGruder, and you're like, man, why can't he keep making comics? And it's like, because it's exhausting. After doing it for, like, 12 years, if somebody wants to stop, you'll know why because it's their babies. But with that in mind, actively while I was in, New York, working with Hyperallergic, doing editorial work, check out my work at Hyperallergic, Centimeters Campbell, but I was also, doing a lot of pitches.
Craig CM Campbell:I was under the expect I I I like the idea of making graphic novels. I'm a huge novel fan. I actively, if if anybody was curious about the the the shoes I wanted to walk in, it was definitely like, Ralph Ellison and James Baldwin. Like, I'm talking about, like, you know, 19 fifties black. That's that was that was the, you know, and so actively, I wanted to create, black stories without black heroes and create narratives that were about the nuances of, race without ever really talking about race directly.
Craig CM Campbell:But, like, it being, so so I made 3 books. One y'all ain't never heard of, and hopefully one day you will. I don't mind saying the name. You could ask me questions about it if you like, but you know, time. But it was That Old English.
Craig CM Campbell:Y'all should check it out. Available online, either at my store at Radio Comics. And also Children in Heath, which was about my war experiences. And so both of those are science fiction stories, that deal a lot with, race, gender, politics, but also it doesn't necessarily have any like lectures and all this. There there's no like, like spoon feeding.
Rob Lee:Yeah.
Craig CM Campbell:And the morals are usually conclusions you have to come to on your own. That's how I wanted to tell stories. It was very inspired by the novels that I had read. And so I wrote those, pitched those, and I was working at hyperallergic, got a job in Columbus, Ohio teaching at Columbus College of Art and Design in the comics department. Shout out to CCAD.
Craig CM Campbell:And and I I continue to make those first two books. Yeah. Every issue, I try to do one issue of each a year, and I'm still behind. And it's it's one of those things where I I continue to engage with teaching, which I love. I love teaching so much.
Craig CM Campbell:I still engage with projects. I like collaborating with other artists. I like the times when I could write to write. I like to draw when I can draw. And so I enjoy making comics and I want to continue to enjoy making comics.
Craig CM Campbell:And if someone was to, put me in a situation where I had support, if I had editors, if I had a team behind me to get work out faster, I would put myself in that position. And if I wanted to take the like, outside of that, I want to enjoy the process, and enjoying the process means taking time doing. And, that's my workflow. My workflow is I continue to make comics. When I'm selling the comics, usually, I'm not making them at the same time.
Craig CM Campbell:So if I finish a book, I get it printed, I go through that rigmarole. I am not really making while I'm in the process of editing and printing. And when I am tabling, usually, there'll be a window of time where I'm not making work for those series or possibly any other series. And if I'm doing a project, it's probably a short term project where it's like I'm doing a 10 page comic, 12 page comic, maybe a part of an anthology or something like that. And so there's a chaotic nature to release dates that I'm sure folks are not happy with, but much love to y'all.
Craig CM Campbell:The people who, after I'm done with it, who have been born this year, will appreciate that. They'll be like, it's all in one bundle. All my future kids, all those future kids out there who got to read the whole thing at once. You're welcome.
Rob Lee:It is. It's like the the thing like, I I do this on occasion. You know, like, the whole way that we stream things now is like, oh, yeah. The first two episodes are available. I was like, no.
Rob Lee:I'm gonna wait till the season is done. I'm a get the whole thing.
Craig CM Campbell:Yeah. Like, inspiration for that, I think a lot of independent artists in the nineties, but the big one was Black Hole. Black Hole came out one issue of a year, over either 10 or 12 years. I used to know off the top of my head I gave a lecture about it, but Charles Burns black hole came out in, like, a large period of time, and it was a really beautiful, like, complex work. And to me, like, I never read it issue by issue.
Craig CM Campbell:I know people who have.
Rob Lee:Yeah.
Craig CM Campbell:I got to read it from beginning to end. Yeah. One day, someone will read my work from beginning to end. We are not there there yet, but, you know, they could read my hyperallergic work. So
Rob Lee:Yeah. Big shout out to Harag as well because he's been on
Craig CM Campbell:the Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Shout out to Harag.
Rob Lee:So tell me about your, like, the the the sort of realization, if you will, like, of who you are or who you were, like, that sort of discovery point of being an artist and and being a person that ascribes to that, like, I think we constantly sort of check into what our interests, like, as as I'm doing this. I always know I was a weirdo, and I'd ask weird questions. I'm like, yo, tell me about how you bop bop bop, and being able to really own that and dive into that and turn it into, sort of, these these types of conversations that, you know, people seem to like. And with with your work, like, when did you know you were who you were on a path of being who you will become?
Craig CM Campbell:I think, as far as being an artist, I think being an artist is like being an adult. When you stop romanticizing it, that's when you know you made it. You know, there's no better sign that someone isn't an adult when they say I'm an adult, I could do things. And it's like, are you an adult though? Are you?
Craig CM Campbell:Maybe. And, when I was like, oh, fuck. Oh, I'm an artist. Damn it. Like, that's that was when I knew I was an artist.
Craig CM Campbell:Oh man, this is my job. I was an artist before that, but that's when I really knew.
Rob Lee:It's it's it's me with the the the teaching thing. My my partner was like, you like your kids. I was like, ah. She was like, you're you're a teacher.
Craig CM Campbell:I was like, ah. Yeah. Yeah. It's here
Rob Lee:in the fields. You love it and you know you can't escape it. And you're like, I'm I'm
Craig CM Campbell:doing this forever, I guess. They're like, that's what I'm a do. And I I think, the way I got to that conclusion, I think as far as if this is advice to young artists looking for that, finishing work. More work you finish, the more you realize that your finished work will not fix your problems or define you. And actively, it was conversation.
Craig CM Campbell:You finish like, when we're talking right now. Right? And if I say something, you think what I said was dope. It's like, cool. It's not like I could be like, alright.
Craig CM Campbell:I said the dope thing. Peace out. Like, you got you got sound bite. Let's go. Actively, it's just the conversation keeps going, and you just keep you keep talking.
Craig CM Campbell:And when you make work as an artist, you keep making work and it's conversational. And it's not a point where you just stop. You you continue to engage with work. You see what other artists doing. I love going to comic conventions, seeing what cartoonists are making.
Craig CM Campbell:I love going to movies with friends and talking about the movie afterwards. I love engaging
Rob Lee:Yeah.
Craig CM Campbell:With the world around me. And as an artist, I feel like it's our job to take in the world and converse about it and reflect on it and communicate things both textually and nontextually and, reach, more abstract modes of thought because at the end of the day, language is abstract, thought is abstract. You know, there is no inherent value in words, but us as a species have created a way in which we can monetize and create values on thought. And so as artists, that's we're perpetuating that. The value is in our engagement.
Craig CM Campbell:And so continuing to engage, that doesn't stop. And finishing a piece is like finishing a sentence. Yeah. You know? Writing a page, writing a paragraph, writing a book, it's all just one step in a litany of things until you stop.
Rob Lee:Yeah. I mean, when I'm trying to get this across as an idea, as a concept, as a thing, right, you know, I'll say and I try not to sound hokey. But I'll say, you know, this is, you know, a page in the book that is this podcast journey, or this is a portion of the body of work, and I struggle with and and and I want to get your thoughts on on this. When like, I do a lot in a volume. Like, I'm coming up on it this as we're recording this 5 years, but nearly 800 episodes in that 5 years.
Craig CM Campbell:Congratulations.
Rob Lee:Thank you. Thank you. And I I kinda struggle at times with, you know, wanting to spend more time with, but there is a driver of, gotta get these conversations, I dig these conversations, these are great, and trying to balance the 2. And I don't feel this way, but it's sort of that one piece of criticism that I haven't heard it, but I think, like, is it disposable? You know what I mean?
Rob Lee:Like, what's what is that value? Because it's words and all of that stuff, and because you're able to because I'm able to get so much done and I see people who are able to get a lot of work out, You're, like, what's the quality component around it and sort of that those validation markers that come along with it?
Craig CM Campbell:So, I think it it goes back to this kind of idea of pretension. Me acknowledging the fact that there is no inherent value in the things that I do and say, but my job is to believe and make people believe that there is. I am a weird dude, you know, I don't know what it is. ADHD, autism, whatever that is. But it was later in life that, this is gonna sound crazy, that I realized people talk for fun.
Craig CM Campbell:Like I, like I thought that communication was purely functional and I realized most people just talk shit and this is it, just talk shit. It's not about the exchange of information all the time. Sometimes it's just talking shit. And so creating a hierarchy in talking shit versus like, like, it's something that as I've gotten older, I put less weight into. Like, who's being, like, who's telling a fart joke and who's enlightening me?
Craig CM Campbell:You know what I mean? And so, like, at the end of the day, sometimes people like, my question comes down to, are we hurting anybody?
Rob Lee:Right.
Craig CM Campbell:I think if you're just bullshitting, you're not hurting nobody. When I think about, like like, silly, like, well, I'm trying to think there's a movie that came out. Love it. It's amazing. It's called, 100 of Beavers.
Craig CM Campbell:Okay. It's about a dude who's hunting hundreds of beavers. It's a silent picture. It only had, like, one line of dialogue, and it it was a silly movie. It was just silly.
Craig CM Campbell:It was so dope. It was silly. And it was so valid, and I I found it extremely enlightening, and, it was romantic and fun. And I I didn't walk away with any moral lesson, and I I I'm not sure. I don't think I walked away a better person, but I was happier.
Craig CM Campbell:I I think there's some media that is dangerous and hurtful, and us as viewers and us as makers need to do our best to try not to let society and those conversations, permeate to the point of self destruction. I think we have a responsibility there. But generally, you know, like, I like 21 Savage. Like, I like Too Short. I was talking to I was talking to my homie once, and I was like, oh, I really love this, Bukowski book.
Craig CM Campbell:And he's like, man, Bukowski is a misogynist. I was like, dog, you are bumping too short right now. He's like, well, you know, like, I can't listen to Lil B and Charles Bukowski at the same time. I gotta pick my pick my lanes. And I was like, alright.
Craig CM Campbell:Cool. That works for you. But actively, there are artists that I won't listen to because I do think that the
Rob Lee:Yeah.
Craig CM Campbell:Damage outweighs any kind of pleasure or insight I can
Rob Lee:get out of it. And that's a journey and a question that we
Craig CM Campbell:have to make as artists and as consumers. And I try not to be judgmental of folks who I may not agree with who have made that decision. But, like, I I don't think I'm overly romantic about, the work that I make. And I will say this about the work that I make. I think it's smart.
Craig CM Campbell:I think it's cool. I think it's funny, but I could give you a book list in 30 seconds that would be more insightful than a book that I'm working on for 7 years. And that's just the way the world works. Yeah. No.
Craig CM Campbell:No.
Rob Lee:No. It it's it's one of those things where, you know, I might get a little, and I think some some folks run into this, and the thing is almost believing your your own bullshit. You know, almost believing in the bullshit that surrounds you, and, you know, any sort of acknowledgment, any sort of, like, you know, like, as we're talking, I got this giant billboard in the city, and it's, oh, and then people think that that's, wow. You're doing something. And I was just like, I just had some money, and I just got a billboard.
Rob Lee:And I'm kinda petty, and I put it in an arts district where people who act like I don't exist will see it, so they know I exist. It's it's Yeah. Funny. And, you know, it's this sort of thing where how can I put it? Like, when you're you're you're working on your your sort of thing, you're you're making it happen, and you have people tell you, oh, this is a good episode, this was this, this was that, that sort of engagement, that feedback.
Rob Lee:I play games with it. I'm, like, yo, I'm the truth in this art guy. I'm, you know, age list celebrity. I I do these different things because I don't wanna take this stuff serious, and I find, like, people, you know, in the in something that effectively, as you you've touched on, it's a disposable nature to it. It's a sort of non serious nature to it, and people get so serious.
Rob Lee:Like, be serious about what you're making. Be serious about why you're making it and all of that, but when it's just like as an artiste, just like less less of that, you know. Have fun with it.
Craig CM Campbell:Yeah. I I went on a a bit of a diatribe about something like this and someone you know when you say it's something for a long period of time and someone makes a sentence, just one sentence that sums it up so perfectly? I I went on a a a diatribe about this and they responded. They're like, so, you you're saying take your work seriously, but don't take yourself seriously. And I was like, boom.
Craig CM Campbell:That's it. Take your work seriously. Don't take yourself seriously.
Rob Lee:So let me move into these last two questions before I hit you with the rapid fire ones.
Craig CM Campbell:Right. Alright.
Rob Lee:This is this isn't that that these these next two actually in the sort of same vein in this direction we've gone into. I I've heard sort of roots of this term, so it might be a better term to use for, but for simplicity's sake, I'll use it. Have you experienced imposter syndrome, and how do you overcome it? Or how did you overcome it, and how do you address it if you encounter it? Yeah.
Craig CM Campbell:I'll say, experienced imposter syndrome. I mean, I think for me, I perpetually feel imposter syndrome. I'm just uncomfortable.
Rob Lee:God, guys.
Craig CM Campbell:So I think, when I make art, like, you know how people say that they they try to get to a style? I'm dramatically avoiding a style at any cost. A lot of my work looks different from them to each other. So you could look at my hyper word. It does look work.
Craig CM Campbell:It doesn't look like children in Heath, and it doesn't look like that old English that old English. I did a lot of research. I looked into, Floyd Godfrey's work with, Mickey Mouse, Carl Bart's work with Donald Duck. I looked in Paul Murray's, work with Mickey Mouse and a lot of his notes about how to, draw on a very specific aesthetic. I looked at a lot of different artists for this new book that I'm working on, the This is Columbus, not where the fuck you come from, which is focused in on kind of creating a zine where, like, I've been saying I I wanted it to look like I smashed my hand in a car door.
Craig CM Campbell:And so I wanted it to just look like look like all over the place and chaotic. And so I had to practice how to draw different. And so actively, every time I go into a project, after researching it and trying something new, I feel the intense fear of failure. And I think a lot of that comes from, coming from an arts background where, this is not necessarily how it works. This is gonna be very, like binary in something where it's like, but in my head with illustration, when I do an illustration job, it's me making a promise that I can do what I've done before again.
Rob Lee:Yeah.
Craig CM Campbell:And with, with fine art in my mind, it is perpetual exploration and a high risk of failure. And for when I approach making comics, I I don't know what it is. I need this high risk of failure. And so I'm making something, and I don't know what it's gonna look like at the end. I don't know what that aesthetic's gonna look like.
Craig CM Campbell:And I I also know that there's this point where I'm like, oh my god. Do I have to commit to this aesthetic? Because I've been drawn this way for 10 pages Yeah. And I found a new way to do this. And so I would say that the imposter syndrome is something that perpetually comes out of not existing in my comfort zone and perpetually wanting to surprise myself.
Craig CM Campbell:But that comes with a degree a degree of anxiety and concern. Like, I become less aware of what I what my deadlines are gonna look like when I'm experimenting. I was less likely to experiment when I was working with hyperallergic because I had them deadlines and I'm like, I'm making everybody a silhouette and the character looks like me. I was like, I gotta make this easy. Nothing but playing on easy mode.
Craig CM Campbell:But, like, with a lot of my personal projects, I'm like, am I supposed to be the person writing a story? Is this my story to tell? Is this my voice? What is what is going on? And so I I live in that place of, impostor syndrome.
Craig CM Campbell:I I I I bought real estate. I got a a coat rack over there.
Rob Lee:I'm I'm subletting, I think. You know, I I encounter in doing this like, you know, I mentioned earlier the the the number we're we're approaching, and I try not to have the same conversation. I try not to just keep sort of hand questions. I was like, well, you know, Craig's an artist and does comics, so let me just ask these same questions that I've asked someone else. There are gonna be some things that I'm interested in that might show back up because I'm referencing myself at this point.
Rob Lee:But they're, you know, each interview, right, generally, I don't know the people leading into it. So right there, that's why I was saying what I said before we got started of the energy level, we're we're we're there, you know what I mean? We're at the same spot. But, you know, there are times when I come in as, like, yo, you lightweight hate me, don't you? And it and it's and it's sort of that, and I'm, like, I'm not qualified to do this.
Rob Lee:Why would they even spend their time talking to me? These are all of the things that run by, and then you hear me sound all silky when I do my introduction and we get into it. Yeah. But yeah. So I'm I'm subletting there, and and part of it is also, just it is you you said it so well.
Rob Lee:It's just, this thing of, like, let me do the thing I know I can do. And, you know, when I'm invited to do this, this this speaking thing, which, you know, I I think that there's some artistry to it, but I don't know if it's art per se. I think the the documentation and the the archive component of it, sure, but just the actual act of something different. I when I'm asked to do something that I'm like, I can talk with someone 1 to 1, but in front of a group of people, that's a whole different thing, and I have to go back to what do I know. And I came to this conclusion a couple years ago when I had to do a talk.
Rob Lee:No guess. It's just me talking about myself and, like, yo, tell us your art story. I'm, like, I got I don't even know. And I framed it, and I think this comes up in Austin Kleon's book of, you know, he had these, like, sort of 10 points that he was using for steal like an artist and all. I just framed it like, I'm gonna interview myself in this.
Rob Lee:I was like, I know how to interview, and I was like, I'm gonna interview myself, and that's gonna be the basis of this talk that I'm gonna do.
Craig CM Campbell:Yeah. I find I find the space of discomfort allows for me to be better at what I do. The times when I'm at my worst are the times I'm at my most comfortable. Where I'm just like, I know what I'm doing. I'm fine.
Craig CM Campbell:I'm I ain't got nothing to worry about. And I walk out there and I'm like, alright. So I'm not prepared.
Rob Lee:I walked outside and got hit by a car.
Craig CM Campbell:Like, times when I'm freaking out, I'm like, wait. Do I have my slide? Wait. Hold on. Did I this is the old slide or the new slide?
Craig CM Campbell:Wait. Okay. So wait. Are they going to introduce me? Wait, did I ask somebody to give me a time, like, like, like a signal when I'm, when I'm off stage?
Craig CM Campbell:Because, oh, I'm about to interview this person. Is this a dumb question? Oh, man. I think this might be a touchy subject. Wait.
Craig CM Campbell:And it's like all of those concerns, all of that anxiety creates this, like, superpower situation where I will walk into a space and I'm just really good at just being like, just doing this while in my head, chaos, pure chaos. I'm like, all right. Yeah. We're doing it.
Rob Lee:It's just like, we're out here.
Craig CM Campbell:Yeah. Yeah.
Rob Lee:Alright. So so here's here's the last one, and I think it's a good, companion piece to that previous question, a nice little dovetailing here. So, you know, I I think I I realized at times when we we have folks that are artists, folks that are living that creative life, the life part is is capitalized. So I'm gonna frame it in this way. What's a life lesson that you've learned that really helps you cope with some of the challenges and and limitations of living this creative life?
Craig CM Campbell:An important thing for me was to learn that light, like, being an artist, no matter how good I am or how successful I am, was not gonna fix everything. And, like, there are these truisms where, like, we know. Right? It's like when you tell a kid, you know, like, hey. You know?
Craig CM Campbell:Don't I don't know. Brush your teeth every day or you're gonna get gingivitis. Like, they know that. That doesn't mean they're gonna brush their teeth every day. Horrible metaphor, but, like, point made.
Craig CM Campbell:I I would say that no matter it took me like living it, it took me finishing work. It took me like, like, I had to work on my relationship with my parents. I have to, pay my bills. I have to make sure I show up to work in on time. I have to make sure that the people in my life are taken care of.
Craig CM Campbell:I have to exist as a human being. And no matter how good I am or how how well I do, it will not fix those problems. Right. Missing, like, my niece's recital, I can't go to her in in 10 years and be like, yo. I wasn't there for your childhood, but I made this book and it was dope.
Craig CM Campbell:Right? I got you some autographs from your favorite cartoonists. Forgive me. It's like, you just you have to exist. You can't avoid your existence.
Craig CM Campbell:And I think that a lot of people think that there are these things you could do that will supplement having to exist. But, like, existence is, like, cool. It's pretty chill. I recommend it. Like, sometimes like, because sometimes it just gets hard and, like you might wanna make art to escape and you could do that for a little bit, but like you still have to live.
Craig CM Campbell:You might wanna, if you if you just like got got that residency, that art residency and that professorship, maybe your parents won't look at you crazy because you're a cartoonist. They still gonna look at you crazy. They ask so many reasons to look at you crazy, look at you all sorts of sideways. It it was never one thing. You're still gonna have to go on dates.
Craig CM Campbell:You're still gonna have to be a parent if you choose that, you know, path. You're still gonna have to exist. And being an artist is a caveat. It's a part it ain't the whole shebang, a bang. So that was, I think, a big thing for me.
Craig CM Campbell:Like, huge.
Rob Lee:Thank you. That's that's good. That's good. I I think that's one for people to check-in and on and and consider because it's it's those things that are that are connected and you have to be a person. I forget that at times.
Rob Lee:I forget those those different things and I'm, you know, a time thief. I'm juggling time. I'm as I was saying, the multiple identities that I'm operating within, and, you know, sometimes you gotta have those things, and, you know, as a person that's a pretty productive individual, very industrious, if you will, trying to have those breaks and those periods as I was describing before we got started, you know, like I'm going to take a week off, like intentionally I'm not recording anything, because I gotta think of things, of like what kind of question is this going to be, why do I care about this person, Should I actually do this interview? Things of that nature, and I think that sort of exercise and that consideration should be applied through a lot of folks because, you know, there's this notion of whatever the bag looks like, whether it's a literal bag of money, chase it, chase it, chase it, and it can't always be that way because burnout and the the the the the the the the the.
Craig CM Campbell:I remember when I was in New York, there were always events, and there was these little moments. And I was like, oh, I can't go because I got work. I can't go because of this. I can't I remember those events. I don't remember what I miss them for.
Craig CM Campbell:And that sticks with me. Like, I I have students and I'll be they'll be like, yo, I can't go to, you know, meet this author, this writer. I really wanna go to this event, the speaker. I can't go to this networking event. And, like, there are a lot of them.
Craig CM Campbell:And you don't necessarily know which one is gonna be the thing that you needed.
Rob Lee:Yeah.
Craig CM Campbell:But it might be the thing that you missed that you needed that day. And I I just always say just pause, really reflect, and think about what that value is. And because at some point, they're gonna be a thing. You can't make it to everything. You can't do everything.
Craig CM Campbell:You know? And it and I know for some people, like, they're like, this is why I gotta quit my job so that I can make it to every artist talk. You have to make some really serious decisions, but like actively, some people will miss everything so that they can make every job so that they don't walk away with, like, debt, which is a choice you make. But then you walk away from school and wonder why you win because you don't have those moments.
Rob Lee:I I took and and and I'll I'll close on this before going into these rapid fire questions. I I took one of those lessons because, you know, you do this circle of friends. And I remember a lot like a lot of people when we were watching me and my partner were watching the last dance and she was like, in your circle of friends, she was like, I'm going to say who you are. Take from what you will. And I was like, you're going to say I'm Jordan, aren't you?
Rob Lee:She was like, you are. And I was like, I'll take it. He's an Aquarius. I'm an Aquarius. Let's go, and I was like, I'm always Disney's white boys.
Rob Lee:Not really, but still, and and it's one of the things that, you know, I I I use it. You know, if you follow me on social, I use I use the I took a personal meme all the time because Yeah. Look, get out of your neighborhood, my guy, and show you what's what, but, it was one thing that really stuck out that that that he said in the the doc, and it was about sort of his personality around winning. You know, that whole thing, if you if you don't wanna if you wanna win that way, you you can, but, you know, basically, it seems it seems like there was a lot of remorse there. And I think that that's something that really to kind of look at.
Rob Lee:Like, I got to a point where I was like, I'm trying to do everything, trying to go to every event, trying to juggle multiple things. I was like, no, I got a number this and take what comes with it. Take the losses that come with it. So, you know, I might be able to do this event and that event. Sometimes those events happen at the same time.
Craig CM Campbell:Yes.
Rob Lee:And, you know, you just have to really think those things through and then accept what comes with it. Like, sometimes it's proximity, you know, but really when you you have that sort of real life day job, then art life, that sometimes they bump up against each other, You gotta really, you know, consider those.
Craig CM Campbell:Well, and I I would say that, like, actively, I had the luxury of going to college when I wanted us to hit that like 25. So a lot of my peers were younger than me and I'd gotten out of the Marine Corps. So I was in the military. And so as far as being able to identify my relationship with what I was looking for and what I needed, you know, when you first go to college for a lot of students, that's the first time away from home. And like life might feel super intense for me.
Craig CM Campbell:I was like, I struggled. I've been born. I was in the marine corps. And so I can make some of those choices because I know myself. I didn't have to go through that process at the same time.
Craig CM Campbell:So I keep that in mind. You know, sometimes being young is is is is rough. It's rough. So
Rob Lee:Yeah. Yeah. No. No. That's that's that's great.
Rob Lee:That's a great way to close that out, especially with your your education background as well, you know, kinda tying. Like, yeah, man. It's young. Being young is rough. It's a challenge.
Craig CM Campbell:You because you have a note. You don't know how rough it is. Because we ain't been old yet.
Rob Lee:So let me let me hit you with these rapid fire questions. I got 3 of them for you. And as I tell everyone, don't overthink these. These these are just regular questions. Cool.
Rob Lee:Alright. So here's the first one. What is your favorite color? And both of these words that I'm asking as far as favorite color, both of them have a u on there, so I'm pinky extended. Favorite with a u color with a u.
Craig CM Campbell:I'm gonna go with purple. Now, reason I'm going for purple is, I remember watching this movie. I can't remember the artist's name. Talking about specific colors and identified, purple was the, the, as the color without function. And it historically I was, I bought into that.
Craig CM Campbell:But then I realized something, after, seeing, Insecure, after seeing Moonlight, I was like, purple is black. Purple is black. And it reshaped the way I approached art, the way that I engaged with art, and the color purple changed my life.
Rob Lee:Okay. What was the other question? I forgot that one. No. I just didn't know.
Craig CM Campbell:That was it? Okay. Cool.
Rob Lee:Yeah. Favorite color, just both we use.
Craig CM Campbell:Favorite color. Cool. I thought there was a second part. I was
Rob Lee:just being boujee with it. Here's here's the next one. Here's the next one. I'm gonna save this one. I'm gonna save this.
Rob Lee:I'm gonna ask you a different one. I'm gonna save this one for a second because I think I think this is a good one to to end on. So I'm curious about sort of habits and routines of artists. What is, like, a regular or common meal that you have? It could be a snack, but but something that you're regularly eating.
Rob Lee:Alright.
Craig CM Campbell:Oh, so vulnerable. Wow. Wow. Alright. I would say I'm pretty inconsistent.
Craig CM Campbell:I like to observe my diet and actively get into the routine of diet. So 1 year, I ate so many lentils you wouldn't believe. Just like curry lentil all day, every day. That was my ketchup meal. Last year, it would have been straight up sushi.
Craig CM Campbell:This year, I live next to a barbecue spot. And though I'm anticipating cutting out the cutting back on meat, that has become like just straight up just ribs, just straight up ribs, 100% ribs. That is my safety meal right now. 100% ribs. I go get, get 3 bones.
Craig CM Campbell:It's like
Rob Lee:the one we're here eating like the brontosaurus burger. You know, Flintstone ribs.
Craig CM Campbell:Yeah. No. It's they hit. And if you go there regularly enough, they show you a little bit extra love. You know?
Craig CM Campbell:Little bit extra.
Rob Lee:What what is that, Chris Rock, dude?
Craig CM Campbell:One rib. One rib.
Rob Lee:So so I'm assuming this is this last question. I'm assuming that you watched X Men 97. Yes. So in that, you know, that's one of those properties I didn't finish it. I'm I'm not gonna spoil.
Rob Lee:I'm not one of those guys, but, you know, it's one of those things that, you know, this came back, you know, this is just a continuation. So for you, you know, you're you're a pop culture guy. You have the, you know, self described. You're you're a weird guy. You got some interest and you're a cartoon guy.
Rob Lee:You're you're a super talented artist. If someone approached you with, hey, we want you to revive this. It could be something that's regular relative, like live action media. It could be something that's animated. What would be that property that has existed,
Craig CM Campbell:question is that I've thought about it and you got me in like a karaoke moment where it's just like, yo, what's your song? I'm like, I got a song that I've been wanting to sing, but I can't remember. So I'm a just go with, like, this random song I always do. So I mean, my my song the oh. Alright.
Craig CM Campbell:The one I always do has always been the question, DC Comics.
Rob Lee:Nice.
Craig CM Campbell:I really enjoy the question. I think, like, the work that's been done with it has been amazing, and I I would love to be a part of that legacy. And I think that there'd be fun stuff to do with it. I think, if I were to go with X Men, I think I'd want to go with, Cypher. I think that having, just a character who can speak every language.
Craig CM Campbell:This probably has something to do with the fact that my butt, that old English, does the inverse. Yeah. Where it's the amount of languages people could speak. The idea of writing a story that's focused on, just a person who could learn every language and what to do with that would be interesting. I feel like there is something that has been on my head recently.
Craig CM Campbell:Oh, Bizarro from Superman.
Rob Lee:Yeah. Go on.
Craig CM Campbell:So this is never gonna be made, so I'm a just pitch this to you.
Rob Lee:Great.
Craig CM Campbell:I would love a story that was about the alt right using bizarro as a metaphor and the idea that there are a group of a population that are bizarro versions of themselves like, Invasion of Body Snatchers, Except it was Bizarro people invading earth, and they would just take everything and subvert it and undercut it. And then they had, like, a a bunch of control over different media outlets. And so you would have a a political problem with, bizarro people that existed throughout the population.
Rob Lee:That would work. That would so so you said this is not gonna be made?
Craig CM Campbell:No. I mean, I'm not gonna get no Superman. You know? If I make this if I make this in in 20, 30 years, when I'm Jack Herbie old, people will have to dig through all the podcasts to find this interview. And be like,
Rob Lee:he said once long, long ago, he wanted
Craig CM Campbell:to write a bizarro story. That's why this sounds like 2,000. And why does this story sound like 2016? Because that's when he thought of it. There's a podcast.
Rob Lee:He was on this h list celebrities podcast. And, I mean, I if if I were in it, because I always like to, like, throw these in, if I were in it, I I, you know, I I have taste. I don't know if I have talent, but I have taste, and I would say, Joe, just just give me love craft country. Just let me cracker. Let me do that better for y'all.
Rob Lee:I mean, let me
Craig CM Campbell:do that
Rob Lee:for y'all, And and and I'm saying it with stank on it. Let me fix that for y'all.
Craig CM Campbell:Oh, no. No. I agree. I think there's things you could do. Oh, man.
Craig CM Campbell:See, I'm a I'm a this this is a podcast in of itself.
Rob Lee:Mhmm.
Craig CM Campbell:But, like like, if we were talking about films, talking because I feel like, oh, there was a story. Like, okay. So this would have to be a parody. Mary Poppins, but, but Mary Poppins is black.
Rob Lee:Okay. Okay.
Craig CM Campbell:I feel like there's a way to really permeate a conversation about race in the early 19 twenties using, Mary Poppins, as this, allegorical character and Burke too. So you have these, like because there's clearly a class conversation in Mary Poppins about poor people taking care of rich people's kids. And so as far as undercutting the narrative of, the nanny in black narratives, especially period pieces, I think Mary Poppins would be a fun story to engage with that, and the music could be better. Okay. It's hard for me to say the music could be better because I love me some Mary Poppins.
Craig CM Campbell:But like, I was a kid in front of that TV playing let's go fly a kite on loop.
Rob Lee:I just want a trap beat. No. I don't want a trap beat, actually, just to pop up at Marie Poppins. I just don't want that.
Craig CM Campbell:I think there's something that the right artist, the right voice
Rob Lee:Yeah. Could
Craig CM Campbell:do something. Call Ryan Coogler. See if he got something.
Rob Lee:We need the big Cougs to get on. Yo. Cougs could do it. I don't think there's not much he can do, actually. So that's kind of it for the pod.
Rob Lee:I want to 1, I want to I want to do 2 things here in these final moments. 1, I want to thank you so much for coming on and spending some time with me. This has been just loads and loads of fun. And 2, I want to invite and encourage you to share with the listeners who are uninitiated, where they could check you out, social media, website, all that good stuff. The floor is yours.
Craig CM Campbell:Alright. So, on Instagram, at mrcplcraig, mister corporalcraigus, the the where that comes from, a little military reference. You could tell when I made that IG. Also, if you wanted to find me on my website, it's cmcampbellart.com. I have another website, which is a fine arts website that I think is just kinda funny.
Craig CM Campbell:You can find my artist statement there. It's, craighu.com. So you can see some of the work that I've done in art curation. Some of my, favorite works that I've done has been curating art shows. I wish y'all could have experienced it.
Craig CM Campbell:But if you were curious about what that was, you could find it on that website. Also, check out the homie, Adam Roberts, who is doing it big. He's done work for Vera, and he publishes work under my, website, under CMC Comics. I feel like those are big ones. Those are the heavy hitter.
Craig CM Campbell:Right?
Rob Lee:Yeah. There you have it, folks. I'm gonna again thank the great, the super talented, the funny Craig Campbell for coming on to the podcast. And I'm Rob Lee saying that there's art, culture and community in and around your neck of the woods. You've just got to look for it.
