The Truth In This Art with Illustrator Justine Swindell

Instagram will make you think Rome was built in a day, and it's it's not. And even the Rome that is built might not be that nice to be in. So so really defining, like, what like I said earlier, what is that success piece of an artist that are you really yearning for? Is it you you wanna feel seen? Is it there's nothing wrong with that.

You wanna feel like you look at you working

like it. You wanna

feel like someone walks past it and buys it off the wall. You wanna feel like it's it's telling a story that you never seen. Like, being really authentic about, what what you can, what really works for you there, what really makes you tick.

Welcome to The Truth in Us Art. I am your host, Rob Lee. Thank you for tuning into my conversations at the intersection of arts, culture and community. Today, I am super excited to welcome my next guest, a Washington, DC based multidisciplinary artist who captures the humanity of individuals through her vibrant illustrations, murals, and digital art. Please welcome Justine Swindell.

Welcome to the podcast.

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

It's, 1, it's a treat. Like, it's one of those things, right? Like, as many interviews that I've done and as many times as I've reached out to people, it always gets that spark in me when someone's like, yeah, I'll do your interview. It's like, hell, yeah. Like, I get a lot of noes, but when I Really?

Look. You'd be surprised.

Yeah. It's been

you know, I think I'm coming up on the march towards 800 interviews overall in in about 5 years. Right? And

Amazing.

And I

think I've probably sent out maybe 2,000 requests, so it's kinda like one of those things. I got about 40%.

Mhmm. That's still good. Those are good numbers. You know,

I'm watching, I watch baseball, so that's a pretty good batting average, actually.

A 100%. A 100%.

So, again, thank you for for coming on and making the time. And for starters, I wanna give you the the space to introduce yourself. And in that, you know, I I found in doing all of these interviews, I found that, like, you'll get the artist statement, you'll get the online bio, and there's something missing. There's all the missing map.

Always. Or,

you know, the person is like, yo, this is really important to me. I was like, oh, right. And the bio is there for simplicity's sake. So I wanna give you the space to introduce yourself, like, who are you? And, and tell us about your work.

Sure. You know, it it's actually a really interesting and timely question because it's I think a lot of people struggle with it. Anyone who has that multidisciplinary title somewhere in their in their name is, like means that they like or do a lot of things, and they're not fitting into the box very well. So, so yeah. Absolutely.

I I like to say that we can all be dynamic and not negatively say that we're all over the place. But so I think my dynamic life is something I've been building that includes and is, you know, definitely centered around, a love for art that I've had since a child. I come from an artistic family. It's one of the only things I think from a very young age I felt, like, very true about, like, I never had to question. But I'm also someone, I'm a kid of DC from the nineties, and I'm the youngest of 5 kids.

And I have all these things that have informed the way I like to interact with this world. And a lot of that has led me to a lot of kind of equity and public health work, in my in my lifetime. And so I really think of myself as someone who's toggled between, might think about work as a profession, being a and studying and being a student of and working in the arts, but also someone that has been a student, and a researcher, and someone that is also working in kind of health and and human experience in life and services. So so I've I've been very much 2 lanes, but my goal, and that's why I say it's timely, is always to intersect them as much as possible because I think that's kind of where you find your purpose of it. Yeah.

But that's, that's how I would describe it in the longer way. But in the short way, you know, I'm a multidisciplinary artist who also works in in public health.

I love it. Being able to to walk both worlds, almost, I joke about it because I I mentioned, you know, sort of, you know, what the day job is. I'm I'm a data analyst by by day, and I do this by day and by night. But I do this as well. And I remember, like, one

of the first times really sharing that, and people were

like, how do you do both? I was like, just just do it. And but I find that, you know, they they serve each other. Like, you know, having sort of the data stuff, you just have hard numbers, and there's no storytelling around it. And, you know, that's that's a shortcoming.

And and then on the other side of it, you can have all of this creative energy and but not know the analytics around it when you're looking at funding and and things of that nature or if it even, like, makes sense. So being able to have, like, what appears to be desperate, like, ideas in that sort of multidisciplinary side of things or multi hyphenate is I see thrown around as well. Mhmm.

So they

they intersect is important.

Yeah. And and I'll say too, you know, from someone who's had time to sit in the industry of the sciences and sit in the industry of business and sit in, you know, institutions and bureaucracy and all those things, you realize that so much of the success comes from being creative. Like, it's problem solving is creativity, artistry. It's all it's all the same thing. If you watch someone who is an entrepreneur or is, you know, a researcher, you're watching them kind of, you know, design a process, and and and trust it and get through it and create something in the end.

And to me, that's the same thing of when I'm making an art piece or doing a client piece. So I I find the what, budget what, budget line they fit into and all that good stuff. Then it then, you know, you have to market yourself in these other ways. But, you know, when you it's like when you go on someone's house, you're like, oh, everything is everything I see. So yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, I I was always, like, growing up, I wanted to be

in the creative space. I wanted

to be a creative space. I wanted to be a comic book artist, what have you. That that was the lane I wanted to be in. And I just remember being in high school, you make those decisions. You're like, what am I going to do?

And I remember I was doing the entrepreneurial thing. I was just undercutting our cafeteria. I was like, I'm gonna sell candy, and I'm going to sell stuff and, and still sketching, still drawing, still writing, things of that nature. And, you know, as you remember, you know, it gets to that sort of college stage, and you're you're thinking, like, I gotta choose 1 or the other

Mhmm.

Versus trying to make a business out of the sort of, like, art, like, the thing that gives me sort of life or what have you. The business thing was, like, this is just gonna feed me, but was the my soul was the creative side.

Yeah. Yep. Yeah. It's it's it's almost there's a crisis, I think, maybe a lot of us are just go through around 23 to 25, you know, area age. I'm I'm in my forties now.

And and I have very, very vivid memories of the shifts I was making at that time deciding between, you know, how I how I could incorporate art into my career or how maybe my career should be something else and maybe art shouldn't pay my bills, you know, and and having those those kind of conversations with myself. And then sometimes the world decides a little bit for you. You know, like, life happens and and you get pushed in one direction or another, but you can always circle back.

Yeah. And and I think this is a a version of of this as is is I'm so happy you mentioned that where, you know, I I wanted it's it's a purity. Right? Like

Mhmm.

I like, I'm I'm self deprecating about it, but I I take this serious. This is this is my art practice. This is my creative outlet, and I look at it very protective in that that way. And when those opportunities present themselves that feel like, hey, you know, let me put this business management sort of mindset on this real quick. I I always go back to, like, where's the purity in it?

You know, that's that's the thing that I start looking at because I've already to to your point, I think I've already been down that that road when you're making those decisions of like, alright, I'm about this age. Am I just gonna keep messing around and doing this? And I think where I'm at now, and I think being in sort of the the day walker, the the two sort of sides of things, it enables me to appreciate both and sustain both and, like, have kind of have equal footing in both of these ideas and sort of the business. I don't know where it ties, but sort of outside of things. And then I'm at the studio and, you know, and sometimes they they clash.

But, you know, it's it's always a thing that you're managing, I think.

Yeah. Well and, honestly, the work that I've done and, you know, I've told some of these stories before in other settings about how when I started when art became a business for me, which by the time I did that on my own was something I never thought I would do was because I was able to fill a gap because of the stuff I learned in my other side of the career. So it was it's kind of, you know, I don't I I didn't plan that per se. You know, if I was gonna make art and I still do it, but sometimes it's like I was always just trying to make something aesthetically pleasing, like patterns and and, you know, things that felt colorful and pretty. But then when you have all this other stuff to say and they start to come together, then next thing you know, you have a style.

And then you have to kinda honor that a little bit.

Yeah. So I wanna I wanna move into this this next question. It's a little bit of a 2 parter. Some might say it's a 3 parter as I'm reading it, because I I'd be cheating. But so what are your and and I'm gonna break it break it down because I realize I'll ask all of the ring.

You're like, hold on. Let me go back for a second. But what are the current mediums that you're working in and with within those mediums, like, do you have like a creative role model or, you know, something that something to that extent? Like, is there someone you're like, I saw this person's work, and I was like, wonder if I can do that, and that's why I now do this. So speak about that a bit.

You know, I sometimes I feel like sometimes it's cliche because all of my when I'm honest with myself and you talk about that purity, all of my true creative inspiration comes from my childhood inspirations, which back then weren't quite as trendy. So, like, to be, like, say, I was inspired by, like, Warhol. Like, everyone's, like, everybody likes Warhol. But, you know, when I was, like, 11, like, it wasn't that wasn't the thing other 11 year olds were talking about. And I've been really fortunate to grow up in this, you know, city with all these free museums and, again, come from a family who is practicing art in real time, you know, where my dining room had a easel in it, you know.

I might not be able to touch it, but it was, it was infused in my life. So I would say, you know, I, my first exhibit that ever moved me, and it moved me because it educated me with the art in a moment when in a way that I would never forget. And I realized the power of it was the Jacob Lawrence exhibit at the Phillips Collection. And I saw it as a kid. And it was probably you know, my parents didn't buy much things for us.

Again, there's 5 of us. But it was something my dad took me to that museum. And he bought me the gift shop book. So I have a really special connection to gift shops because they're, like, this beautiful access to things that are, you know, accessible, like, the little postcards and the magnets, like, and they're fine art. You know?

So I I had that book. And then now that book just is such a part of, like, my psyche, because it was, like, one of the only things I could flip through.

Yeah.

And I just the way it told the story of the Great Migration, and then also that's something my my grandparents moved from New Orleans to DC in the thirties. And so it was this kind of circular thing that I still comes in my, you know, my mind sometimes. I think about the that imagery and, what it did for me. And I see it in my work. You know, I see the simplicity and some of the storytelling and the sim symbolism, not exact same, but, like, this version of it that comes out.

Because, obviously, that's something that's, like, in there. Right? So I I say Jacob Lawrence. I I honestly, dig early on have a lot of influence from, like, the classics, like, the the Monets and the mayonnaise and all those things because that was always in front of me, and I did find something very soothing in that work even though I didn't relate to it. Yeah.

And so I think my whole practice and inspiration as a artist was always, like, merging this, these pieces I felt so much identity with, and then merging this kind of classical beauty I was also looking at, or super modern with that older feel. And and I just always kind of wanted to consume some combination of that. So my current contemporary artists usually are doing that. You know, they're they're doing that in the best of ways. And so that's why I aspire to.

But but that's my early inspiration from that and the type of art and artists that I was consuming at the time.

Thank you. Thank you. That's that's great. And, you know, sort of like I had this second bullet point in there, but you answered it. So see, you're doing well.

That's that's the that's the thing right there with people like like, let them cook, and you get your answers. That's one of the

things to think.

Yeah, try not to be long winded.

No, no, no, no, no. It makes my job easier. No one wanna hear me. So let's let's talk about a a bit, you know, and sort of in in recent work, sort of what does the process look like when you're you're working on something, whether it's your your personal work, whether it's, the client base, but sort of what does the process start? And then I got definitely got 3 bullet points after this, but where's the process start for you?

How deep you wanna go into that question because, you know, artistic processes, if you really think about it, there's a lot of places. I I I'm being honest with myself. So much of my artistic process is is revolved around pressure, you know, a pressure of time. Sometimes when I don't have time is when I wanna do it the most. It's like some tension inside of me.

And so that's why sometimes I get the most inspiration. So sometimes I'll be on a deadline for a client project, and then the idea that I wanna do comes in my head, and then I can't stop thinking about it. And it I might be procrastinating, but somehow it works. And then as soon as I finish that project, I can't wait to to get it out. Right?

So there's a there's a mental component there that I'm always am thinking about, like, why does that idea come now? And then when I'm freed up, I'm like it's like, you know, I guess the version of artist writer's block. I I can't think of anything to do. But from my physical process, it's evolved over the years. You know, before before the iPad, I did a lot of, you know, the a pencil and ink pens, like, favorite castle pens was, like, such a huge part of my, like, process, and really the meditative process of just, like, working small.

Like, I used to work really, really small and and use watercolors. And then I did a lot of sketching and shading and drawing. And and that was a early part for me. But, as time went on, I I wanted to shift my style a bit and get more into, getting myself I liked graphic style kind of work and illustration, but I was much very much a realist drawer and painter, which I think a lot of people are when they've been trained in that at some point, because that's, like, the fundamentals. And it's hard to unlearn it a little bit.

So a lot of my work is now just dealing with shapes, dealing with basic composition, spending a lot of time on that. And so I have sketchbooks and, you know, stuff full of just kind of basic shapes and interactions and things that I'm looking at and figuring out, you know, how they fit together, kind of like collaging. I feel like the there's a mental and physical collaging I'm doing a lot, in my process, whether even digitally. I'm I'm moving things around, and I'm moving references around, until something kinda clicks. I'm usually waiting for something to click.

Sometimes it takes longer than I want it to. And so I kinda describe it I've described to people as, you know, you have those globes with the snow in it

Yeah. That

that I usually, like, the snow is all my ideas and ingredients, and I'm, like, shaking it up and then looking to see where it lands. Like, I don't like it that shake it up again looking to see where it lands. And so that's, like, a big part of my process. And then and at some point, I'm like, I kinda like that, and I move on to to stage 2. So, and then so forth and so on.

So I mean, that's kind of a more, I guess, theoretical response to the question. On a very physical technical side of things. I I now really sketch with my iPad mainly. I do have a lot of, you know, kind of mood boarding and and sketching there. And then, I'm thinking about the story I wanna tell.

I often think about a very basic word of the story I'm trying to tell. You know, if it's something that feels, you know, what is, like, soft and and large and, like, what when you start thinking and looking up those words, what comes up? Because so much of art is getting that very basic reaction, that people don't even know understand why they're reacting to it. So I do a lot of kind of deconstructing in the early stage, and then and then I build against that until I get to a piece that I like.

Thank you. Now now to come with the the other pieces, actually, you you were talking about going deep. I'm gonna go deeper into it now. No.

It's not. Okay.

So is there, in in these sort of areas, like, is there music, is there color, is there any, like, activities that help stimulate sort of, like, creativity? For instance, I I know when I'm in the ideation phase, I'm sitting here, I'm obviously, I'm looking at other interviews, I'm looking at the bios of the guests. And sometimes, if I'm, like, stuck, I throw out classical music, something with no lyrics. It just kinda helps. It it helps my brain snow, if you will, fall into the right places.

Mhmm.

I it's a mix. So I do 2 types of music usually. Like, I have this, like, kind of, like, house r and b mix that that I play. And so it's, like, kind of, like, soul groovy music that that I play. And I often, I use that more so when I'm a little getting more in the groove.

But, but sometimes I put it on just to kind of, like, set the tone and get me a little out of my out of my head. So I like to you know, people who know me, I like to put on some throwback music from from the nineties or whatever. And that usually is just like a sure gateway to just sift energy, get back to basics, and try to get to, you know, the feelings that make you kinda create what you wanna create.

Yeah.

So those are those are definitely, my go to's. But I also do I do a lot in silence too, interestingly enough, not on on purpose. Often because, music, something might run out, and I'm not good at breaking and going back to turn something back on. And next thing, it was 2 hours later, and I'm still kind of sucked in.

Mhmm.

So but, yeah, to get started and a lot of it too is, like, I I need a clean set space. Like, I'm I'm someone that really has to feel like I set the stage to begin working even if it's a small space. It's not about being big. It's just about it feeling very intentional, and that I really do create some warm ups for myself. It's always frustrating.

I'm sure it's like this writing and everything you do too. It's like there's there's nothing more frustrating than having, like, a session of art making, and it just feels like, ugh, like, that didn't turn into anything. But then also accepting that that's, like, part of the deal. Like, you're not gonna have you're not gonna sit down every time and have that magical thing crank out. So you have to know that.

It's like you said, you know, you talked earlier about the number of of rejections. There's a lot of your own, you know, wrongs that have to happen before you get the right, and you have to give time for that. And and I definitely build that into my process when I have a client.

It's it's a good direction that we're we're heading in because it it's the sort of next part of this question that seem, like I said, is multiple parts to this one. Mhmm. Like, for me, I I hate starting. It's like, you know, again, in doing this, I've gotten better at it, but in the past, it would be these awkward sort of, like, alright, how do we engage in conversation? Hi.

I am Rob, and it feels so weird and stilted, and and it it it it sets up the the dynamic oddly, or even when I'm doing something, you know, let's say, potentially for a client, like hosting a thing or even doing any research, like, doing the preparation for it, you know, setting the stage and prepping. But once I'm, like, past it, and may and maybe it's the warm up thing for me that I should be looking into. But once I get past sort of those first few, it's like, you know, again, baseball, you know, it's like, alright. I took a few few swings and misses here, but I'm here, and now I got a hit. But I but, again, I I hate starting.

I find it really challenging. Yeah. Which part of your process do you find to be the most difficult?

I I I mean, I probably with you starting is is really hard. I actually did a print series of, like, these kind of mock pantones that was, like, just start, trust the process, and finish strong. Because it's like each of them I get tripped up on. And and that just starting piece is is sometimes it's not even enough because I have a lot of just starts that I should have probably kept going a little bit longer. Yeah.

And I'm I'm like, oh, I wanna bail. I start worried on enough time. I mean, this isn't working. Let me try again. And it's that's a constant decision making.

So I I like you, I think I really I really have a hard time with that with my own work, particularly. With client work, I just I there's something else that kicks in. I think it's because the, you know, limitations really help us make decisions. And usually I'm doing things that I'm already super comfortable with. But then when I'm doing personal work, I'm experimenting.

I'm I'm sometimes trying things I haven't done before. So I have to kind of wear 2 different hats, give myself grace in different ways, for each one. But, but, yeah, I would I'm probably the same as you. That one's it's it's I'm dealing with it right now. So Yeah.

I mean and even in doing this, like, I I had an interview maybe 2 weeks ago, and I I generally try and I fail often, but I try to keep the interviews to, you know, 30 to 40 minutes or what have you. And, you know, the goal is not for it to be the end all. This is to be a entry point into the the story of the the guest coming on. It's like, this is the the this isn't the exhaustive conversation. This isn't the full expose.

Right?

Mhmm.

And I find often if I'm left to my own devices, like, 2 weeks ago, I did the longest interview I've ever done. I was like, yo, this was 2 hours. And I sent an email, like, yeah, it'll be 45 minutes. We'll be done, but we just kept rolling, and Yeah. And the thing about it, you know, my guest was an Aquarius.

I'm an Aquarius. So we're just like, yeah, man. Let's weird off real quick. And just going down down that rabbit hole and, and and getting deep into it, it was a very it was a very good conversation, but it was longer than normal. So at times, having that, I would I would call it, for lack of a better term, the the governor around is can be really useful.

Like, somebody reaches out, like, yo, can you do a 20 minute podcast? Or these are the the the here's your lane. Here's your parameters.

Yeah.

They can make that happen. And I know how to sort of self edit. So rejection. I'm interested in that. My has rejection, whether it be, you know, sort of that that the doubt components, I think that's a version of rejection.

But has rejection ever affected your creative process? And if so, could you explain how you you cope?

I think I was definitely I've definitely pivoted at times. It I think the hardest thing is with rejection is to figure out what to what to what to shift, what to alter, or if you should alter at all and it was just the wrong situation. So I definitely can get into my own analysis paralysis of a of a of a situation when something doesn't work out or and it's not even just rejection. Sometimes it's, like, not being invited to the thing or not being asked to be a part of something, that that is happening in a in a art space. And, you know, you will wonder, oh, is is my work not a good fit for this reason or that reason?

And and you start to wonder. But, but for the most part, I find that it will bother me probably more just the feeling of it. But, once I'm past it, I'm past it. You know, I'm kind of a have a pity party, you move on kinda person, especially because usually ends up being a a a benefit anyway. This work takes a lot of time.

And if someone's not, like, fully in or if it's not a fully beneficial beneficial situation, there's things I I wish I had rejected and said no to at times because I it it ended up taking up more of my energy than it should have. And so I'm very much at a space where I'm able to, match myself with clients and kinda curate the experience to the way that I like to work. And it took me a it took me a long time to sort through that. It took me, yeah, it's years to kind of get to the place where I knew that kind of sweet spot of a good client project because nowadays, it's not we're interviewing each other, at at this point. That's also one important liberties I like to have about being artists right now is that, I I can make some decisions, and I can I've looked back at years and said, oh, I wish Chen made more time for these other kind of clients and that maybe those 2 or a few especially if I do commercial illustration work sometimes, they just drained me, you know, and I didn't get to really, you know, do some of the stuff I really wanted to do or even say yes to the project that was less money but would have been more fulfilling.

Yeah.

And so each time I try to annually assess my rejection exception experiences, and look at them against what I enjoy doing and the monetary factors and the time factors. That's that's important. And I think, you know, I think, you know, I think, you know, I think, you know, I think, you know, I think, you know, I think, you know, I think how to feel about it.

That's that's that's important. And I think when we're we're working, we have so many different things that come in our direction, Yeah, you have to do that assessment. I have like, you know, I'm not Yeah. You have to do that assessment. I have like, you know, a rubric that I utilize of does this fit?

You know, there are I've gotten, you know, teaching gigs, which is a different layer to to add in to sort of what the is ness of my sort of day to day and in working this in. And, you know, over the years, you know, I had to really step back from how often I was recording. Like

Yeah.

It was 1 year, I recorded almost an episode a day. And with the day job and with all the responsibility is for the day to day, and part of it is just just like, I'm very interested in it, and I enjoy it, and so on. But it's like, all right, maybe you should trim that down. So it's slowly like coming off of the gas, if you will, to, you know, explore, like, the things that I'm interested in, obviously, and doing these interviews and working with folks and really systematizing that process. Because, you know, at a point, it was very much, you're dealing with me directly.

Now it's like, you're dealing with the Calendly. You figure out a date. I'm not gonna handhold it because it was too much time going towards it. So if an opportunity comes up and presents itself, it's kinda like that that's a strategy. Does this fit?

Like, give me all of the details, and I'll let you know if I want it versus, yeah, we got this thing for you. You got to take it because it's good for you. And a lot of times, those things are presented because we're trying to get out there. We're trying to grow. We're trying to be invited to these these different events and these different opportunities.

And those things are put out there like Kurt's a lot too, especially when you're in sort of the, I think the creative mindset and the business mindset. One is taking over a little bit.

Yeah. I mean, and you have to decide what success looks like. I mean, I think the reason why we can all be successful is because it means something different to everybody. You know? Some people just want just have their work seen on a wall or on a billboard.

And some people don't want anyone to see them, but they wanna have, you know, a bunch of passive income that's hitting their account. And and you have to be honest with yourself just like anything you want in this world, a relationship or whatever it is that you're clear on the things that make you the most happy in your practice in life. And and it's very easy to to start steering because the ship is, you know, the current's pulling you in one direction. And so and that's okay too because then you you re you find your your new limit like, oh, nope. I don't wanna go that far anymore.

I don't wanna I don't want I don't wanna do that anymore. So or, you know, sparingly. So, so yeah. I mean, especially as a multidisciplinary artist, there's lots I've had to I say that, but I there was a time where I did, like, so many different types of things, And then I just realized I only had the capacity to do certain styles. And, again, evaluation of time and energy has always kind of served me, to make sure that I walk away from projects feeling, like, fulfilled and, like, proud of them and not, like, ugh, like, I that was not you know, I'm glad it happened, but I don't know if that was worth it.

I don't know if I would have said if, you know, I knew it would turn out like this. And and that's part of the deal, but, again, you get better at narrowing it down.

Yeah. And even in even in doing this, I a consideration I have in mind when I have someone come on, like, you're you're a busy person. You have, oh, yeah. If you have a creative project. All of these different things.

So if you're gonna come on and and spend an hour with me, I'm gonna do my best not to waste your time, make this feel like it's a fulfilling and interesting and enriching conversation. Or at at a minimum, just I make an ass out of myself, and you find it kinda fun. I don't know. But but it is it is it is a thing. And, you know, I try to look at all of this like, you know, there there are times when I'll have folks, when I have emerging artists, I have well established artists come on, and, you know, in these conversations, sometimes we go deep, sometimes we go really deep into sort of the thinking behind the work and behind, like, their creative life.

And, you know, one of the things I'm very mindful of is like, and I've had this happen, you know, not in a podcast, but in live and in person. You know, it was a situation I was trying to set up to help an artist get their work out there in a different way and really just try to figure it out there, like, help have them showcase a film. Mhmm. And sometimes people don't show up, and no one's up. And that artist, you know, sorta in that mindset was like, I think I'm gonna change my career trajectory, like, literally almost in real time.

Mhmm.

And I just felt really bad, and I was really disappointed. Not really at him per se, but more so, like, this didn't work out in this ideal way, and I felt, like, some ownership for it. Like, wow, this is a little bit my fault. I I feel bad about it, you know, and so when I when I do this, I have that sort of same care for it. Like, I don't want to ask a goofy question or make someone think, like, maybe I'm not that good.

You know, I would've been, like, you know, really, like, so tell me about your work. Tell me about it and tell me about the ideas in it and really have them you know, have you all, like, you know, really, really dive into what your work's about.

Mhmm. Yeah.

Oh, yeah. It's trial and error. Right?

Absolutely. So so in that in sort of where we're we're discussing, I want to hear a bit about, like, creative goals. Again, you know, the the, you know, like, I don't know about you, but we get to that part of the year where I get the performance review and it's like, it's Rob, you didn't hit this, this and this this year.

Alright.

And I have to do that in in my own creative thing where I'm the manager. I'm like, alright. How many episodes did I put out this year? How do I feel about this season? Yeah.

You know, when do you do you create, you know, sort of goals where it's like, I'm gonna work with this many clients, work on this many projects? How do you go about that? How do

you feel about sort of

the outcomes? Like, you know, is it you feel bummed if you did, like, half of what you set out for? Do you feel, like, really, really, like, satisfied when you're done? Like, okay. I was gonna do 10.

I did 15. I really crushed it. Talk a bit about those goals.

Yeah. For me, the it's, it's definitely become a quality over quantity. And I mean quality, I mean, like, having projects that meet that Venn diagram of, like, they pay well and that they're interesting and look fun to do. And, you know, I can I feel confident that I can accomplish them in a period of time? So, like, with client work, I I'd always aim for those kind of things.

And I had to kinda learn the ones that the types of projects that happens for me with. But I've about a year or so ago, I during the pandemic, particularly, and also because I had young kids, I really shifted hardcore to more illustration because of the ease of it. Sure. Being able to work digitally just opened me up to a whole lot more opportunities, and it was something that doesn't require cleanup. And I could just I could do it through the night, and it you know, I could just stay plugged in.

I'm good. Right? So so that was a huge factor in kind of my goal setting for a while. And I set those goals based from then just based on finding clients that I felt like, you know, were businesses that, you know, had certain types of budgets that were looking for, you know, certain kinds of, like, marketing campaigns, things that were temporary because that's usually where you can have the most fun. Like, I stopped doing logos.

I stopped doing, like, a lot of brand identity work because it just it's so deeply invested for a client that, that aware me. So I started setting these goals about, you know, around, like, marketing campaigns, like, one off illustrations that were, you know, again with interesting clients and had some, you know, decent pay against them. But then about a year ago, I I I just had this itch. And I was like, I'm at origin as I talked through the beginning of the podcast. Like, I'm a drawer and a painter, like, with my hands.

And I started to get a little burnt on the digital side of things, and I was kind of craving the making again. And the way I've done the past is, like, I'll throw a mural in here and there. And that usually that'll wear me out and and give me my fix. But I really I mean, I've talked about this actually in another podcast about understanding, you know, my service side of myself and my product side of myself, so to speak, in business terms. And when I'm offering something and how I wanna offer it out the world, and when I'm creating certain things, I get there's a different reward.

There's it's not a sure thing. You know? I like the illustration that it's a sure thing. It's, like, low overhead, and it's, like, I can time it out, and I can put and I got that down. And so after I got that down, I was like, I wanna go back, and I wanna start figuring out how I wanna create art again in, like, the as far as, like, the product space and hanging on the walls and in collaboration with other things.

And I wanna work with other makers, and I wanna be in that conversation of creating with people. I wanna make time to connect with people, like, right now. I want I want more of that because the the that kind of work I was doing, I was getting more and more isolated. And I was missing out on that part of art that I love so much, which is, like, being and engaging with people. So so I made a very intentional decision to, you know, get a physical space, which I have down on 8th Street near Howard and and, you know, buy a lot more materials and bring all my mural stuff there and just start creating intentional space for that.

But, you know, with tying the whole conversation together, it's it's also been really hard. It's, like, all of these ideas in my head that I haven't had time to do. And then I sit up to do them, and it's they're going left. They're going right. They're going up.

They're going down. And and I'm I'm going through that. You know? It's almost, like, starting over again a little bit, because I've been out of practice of doing a series or doing collections and things of that nature. So I think right now, I'm trying to give myself a lot of grace in that space.

But, but it's definitely a goal that I've set that I'm still looking at, sometimes feels even stronger than my illustration work, is wanting to get over this this little hump with how I wanna get in a rhythm with creating with my hands again and figuring out the tools that I like using the most. You know, I've I use a lot of ink and watercolor in the past. I've been getting back into acrylics and oils and things I just haven't touched in a long time. And I realized, like, you really do have to keep doing it, or you start to lose forget some of the techniques, so to speak. And so I'm kinda taking myself back to school a little bit, and and hoping that the discipline of that will eventually lead to, you know, some collections of work that I'll be excited to share.

Yeah. Being able to and thank you. Being able to, you know, kinda go back and forth into sort of, like, alright, let me use, okay, digital. We got that. Alright.

Hands. We got that. And really being able to have or or manual or have you, but have 1 or analog, have 1 kinda serve the other. I think it kinda helps in some ways re rewire and re, like, ignite those synapses in in our minds. Like, you know, generally, when I I do this, I do this in my home studio, and it's very easy.

It's very smooth. But sometimes when I go out and there's a inevitably, there's a certain degree of difficulty there. Either the studio isn't set up the way that it should be, or even on me, I think I do it intentionally just to, you know, make myself, like, think a little bit harder, but because you get on autopilot sometimes.

Mhmm.

But, you know, Al, forget me. It's like, damn, I don't have batteries. I'm sure there's a cable here I can connect and do this. And it just a MacGyver situation. And I find because the problem solver thing, because I'm in that mindset, I almost get rid of my questions and go full improv.

And the conversation is now on that different level because it's just like it's still that curiosity because you can't fake curiosity, you can't fake interest, all of that. But it's now I'm approaching it in a in a bit of a different way, and I'm not as relaxed. And I think going back to one of the things you touched on earlier, the pressure piece is there. Yeah. Just, like, I don't wanna screw this up, man.

I mean, I got this person here. They're literally looking at me in my face. I can smell their breath. They can smell moms. So, yeah, it's, it's something which bring brings me to my last two real questions, and you will not escape the rapid fire questions.

They are Okay. No.

I'm here.

Fast and furious.

I'm here.

So this next question, I'm a notes guy. I have so many notepads. I've got, like, you know, notes from a hotel I was in a couple weeks ago with questions on there, just musings and thoughts, and I jot down ideas for podcasts. I jot down ideas for questions. They are in many ways my bread crumbs, especially when I get stuck.

Like, if I'm coming up with questions, it's like, I like this person's work, I see the bio, but something's not quite clicking.

Mhmm.

And do you do you leave yourself, like, breadcrumbs when you're, like, you're you're kind of stuck, you're you're working through something, you're like, let me look at a reference. Let me, you know, is there something that you use in that way to find your way back?

Oh, yeah. I mean, and and path of it's because, you know, I live a kinda crazy life where I have you know, I got I got kids. I got got older parents. I got all kinds of things going on. And my mind sometimes is completely on my art, but I can't physically do it.

And I have to actually sometimes be like, just seem to be be present. Like, you're at the playground. But I I keep my you know, I have my phone. I actually have terrible handwriting, so leaving myself notes has never been good. And people are always like, how are you a creative person with bad handwriting?

I'm like, I don't I don't understand it. But I'm not I writing things down never worked for me. But I keep, I keep Google notes in my in my phone, and I have just all these categories in there. And I need to do that because when I do sit down to make something and I'm I'm feeling a little bit blank, like, I need to go back to those to those notes and be like, okay. What did you say about, you know, a theme you wanna look at?

Or even just, like, what, you know, reference images I wanna make sure I'm capturing. It's kind of like giving myself a to do list a bit, and making sure that when you have those little sparks that happen that you don't lose them. Because you do lose them. You're kinda like,

oh, what was that thing

I was thinking about earlier? And

Right.

It's so frustrating. So so, yeah, I that has been my central place of doing that. And, yeah, I I go back to it. I you know, if I'm sitting on the couch watching TV, I might leave stuff there, and I try to categorize them based on the types of things that I'm working on. Yeah.

I'm I'm a Pinterest person too. You know, I I I like a good mood board, or I like to drop images in and go back sometimes. I look at boards that I made, like, 10 years ago sometimes, but, like, oh, that's what

I was that's what I was into.

Like, I really liked that style, or I was really saved a lot of, like, plant pictures, didn't I? Like, a lot of plants sitting here, and then I'm like, oh, you know? So it's there's those things. And then, you know, pictures I take with my own phones. So those are those are my bread crumbs.

And this is this is the last one, and this is in the the vein of, like, advice What have you? You know, there's been some gems that people have been listening. You've been a few gems or what have you. And it's just like, you know, you don't have to listen to too hard. They're right there.

What advice would you give an emerging artist about navigating the business side of sort of the art world or have you like how you approach it with, as we've been discussing during the crux of this conversation, the dual nature of things?

So, you know, my work is as an entrepreneur right now. When I when I came into art, I actually worked on the production side, working more in actually, a lot of animation work. I was living out in Los Angeles, and I I'm one of those people that got a opportunity pretty young, like, pretty fresh out of college, to be in, like, the industry, so to speak. And I I left it, and I had a lot of feelings about that. And sometimes I still do.

I wonder, oh, if I have stayed in that space. Right? And so part of advice I give to younger people is also how to give to my younger self is just that, you know, figuring out the right way that you like to do art has to be a constant. Like, your personal practice has to be preserved. And then you have to identify that if art's gonna be something that is gonna bring monetary value or is gonna be something that you want to brand or, you know, participate in the commerce world with.

And it's 2 very different things that that you allow yourself to explore what that looks like. And for some people, it comes quickly and some people, it might not. But, you know, the Instagram will make you think Rome was built in a day, and it's it's not. And even the Rome that is built might not be that nice to be in. So so really defining, like, what like I said earlier, what is that success piece of an artist that are you really yearning for?

Is it you you wanna feel seen?

Is it

there's nothing wrong with that.

Sure.

You wanna feel like you look at your work and like it? You wanna feel like someone walks past it and buys it off the wall? You wanna feel like it's it's telling a story that you never seen. Like, being really authentic about, what what you can, what really works for you there, what really makes you tick. And I I've done I've done a couple talks at workshops with not just, like, regular arts, but, like, with acting actors and people at schools.

And the one thing I always preach to those younger emerging artists is that, use creativity as a surface. You know? Like, if you're if you're making art and you want someone else to feel something, then know that you have to do them a service. It's like, the reason we like watching movies is not because it's our exact experience. Like, I'm not watching a western because I've lived in the western times.

I'm watching because there's a piece of that story that's, like, pulling me in, and it's it's bringing something to me. And that's what a director is trying to do. They're trying to you know, it could be a alien. Like, you know, it could be something a dog talking, whatever it is. But it's, like, it's playing on a very intimate experience that someone has that they might feel, whether it's loss or love or, or being dismissed or whatever it might be.

And so I think as artists, you're always going to win when you figure out when you can figure out that way that someone else finds something in your work that serves them, that helps them either heal or helps them feel joy or helps them, you know, just helps them buy something at or whatever it is. You know, it's like, what is the what is the what is the purpose you want it to be? And the purpose can be just for you. Yeah.

You

know? That's okay too. But if you want art out in the world, like, what what what is it giving? And I think that's what I think that's the work. That's the that's the endless work.

But I think the the earlier you start having that conversation with yourself, the more you can be authentic about your process.

Thank you. That that is it's a great answer. That's a that's a that's a very full answer. I like that. And, you know, I think, I think those are considerations.

And upon relistening to this episode, I know that I'm gonna really think about that a bit more and to how I approach what I do. So so thank you for that.

Yeah, of course.

Alright. So now we got all the the real thoughtful, smart, intellectual ish, you know, it's me. You're you're the one doing all the work. I'm just dragging it down. I'm sat back.

And, but I got I got a couple questions for you, rapid fire questions. Don't overthink these. And and for the first two of these, the, I use well, for the first one, I use I use use in these words, the letter u's in these words. So you'll you'll get it in a second.

Okay.

What are your favorite three colors?

Blue, orange, and pink. Okay.

And those were where the use were at and colors and favorite because I'm bougie. So you mentioned like sort of music earlier, right? So definitely. What's the first like house music jam that comes to mind for you? I'm thinking Jungle Brothers, but, you know

Oh, okay. It's not gonna it's it's not gonna work because I I honestly, some of I don't even know the thing about house music, it's about DJs and some of the stuff that has been, like, scraped up over time. And so I if I tell you right now, my favorite mix is from a time of CDs. I used to live in Harlem, New York. And I there was a a CD guy that used to come in the hair salon that I was in all this time.

And he knew that he knew the hairstylist. And he also liked that music. And one day, he came, and he brought me these burned CDs. This is, you know, when a CD was a good thing to have, and we had handwriting on it, and it was it was a a Soul House CD.

Right.

And I still, to this day, look for some of those songs. And they were just these hybrid mixes of, like, Whitney Houston, Joe Scott songs, all these things with these, like, layers on it Yep. That I would clean my house something in my apartment at the time. Something is so so good putting that on every day. And so, so yeah.

So I I don't even know the names of those DJs, but from the that's, like, that's, like, the the magical, gold mine over there. But I I like a good, you know, Neil stole a mix otherwise. You know? That's that's always fun.

Yeah. You definitely set the stage. I felt like I was there, did Harisson on ball.

Listen. I can I'm back there in my mind. It was it was it was a time.

Here here's the next one. I'm I'm very curious about sort of well, the next 2 are in this vein. I'm curious about sort of the habits and sort of superstitions. So first off, habits. So how many hours of sleep do you generally get?

Most kids, I get I get about 6 to 7 hours of sleep.

Okay. Yeah.

Same. Same. Yeah. No kids, but same.

Yeah. I mean, not that's like some days, no. You know? Some days, I'm pushing it. And, you know, if I have a deadline no.

But I'm a night person for sure. Like, I'm I get so much done between 9 PM and midnight. Yeah. And then if I have a deadline, I'll push it still 2 or 3, and it's solid. Like, I get solid stuff done during that time.

So so, you know, sometimes I I I I try to actually balance my deadline so that if I do feel tired, I can be like, you don't have to do one of those late nights. But, but, yeah, I think on average ends up being, like, 6 or 7.

Yeah. I've been doing, like, 6 or 7 myself. And if I find I I do the the early move where I can get up at about 4:30.

Mhmm. No. I can't.

Do the gym first thing in the morning. That's I try to get that knocked out, and I find, like and and this is the thing as I was, you know, sharing with you before we got started, sort of what the early morning was like for me today, just me and several of my peers are like, why aren't there coffee shops open at 5? Why can't we, you know, just do that? And I would like that as well because I I got a lot of work done in coffee shops. I'll have that notepad with me sometimes, maybe my laptop, but generally, the notepad is something about I don't have great handwriting, but I can I can remember what I wrote?

And, but I think it's something about being there and having that sort of, like, the black coffee. I just feel like I'm accomplishing things. And Yeah. I usually take in preparation for these interviews. Like, I was literally writing questions for you last week.

I was on the train coming back from New York, and I was like, alright. So Justine. And that's usually how it goes, and I have to be in that sort of setting. But coffee is a part of it and sort of those early morning or hours where there's minimal interruption, I suppose.

Yeah. No. Makes sense.

Here's the last one. And this is in a similar vein.

Okay.

What's a superstition habit or routine that you swear by as an artist? And I always look for the really weird ones, the ones that was like, look, I gotta have, you know, this meal. You know, like, how baseball players have, like, superstitions. It's like, look, I wear the same socks for a month, and I got hits every day.

Yeah. Not like that. But,

Yeah. Of course not.

Like, I changed my socks. I, well, that's tough. I'm like, I would say so, you know, I mentioned earlier I like a a clean kind of fresh space. I mean, I think routine. I don't know if it's a superstition, but I I do the thing where I I light a candle.

I do the thing where, I I like, I'm a tape a counter wiper. Like, before I do anything, like, even if that's, like, a laptop on my laptop or whatever, like, I have a kind of ceremonious, like, wipe down and then, like, like I'd like to aesthetically, like, place with if it's, like, a water or coffee or the candle and all the things in this way. And sometimes I think it's procrastination because it it it'll start taking more time than it should. But but I, I love to, like, kind of create, like, a a pretty picture. It's almost like I'm making a drawing, pre drawing, or even if I'm writing emails, like, of the space.

It's how I like to, kind of, like, kick things off. And so, yeah. If I if I'm at a table at my desk, I do that. If I'm in the studio, I do it too. Even if I'm painting on campus, I'm like, I have to, like, wipe the counter down.

Yeah. And, like, it'd be like, okay. Now we can.

Now the main event can start. I can wipe down the counter.

Exactly. Otherwise, I'm looking over there like

I I use my microfiber cloths. We are good to go.

So many.

So that's pretty much it for the podcast. So there are 2 things that I would like to do in these final moments. 1, I would like to thank you for coming on to the podcast. This has been a pleasure.

Yeah.

And 2, I would like to invite and encourage you to share with the listeners where they can check you out, social media website, shameless plug away, if you will. The floor is yours.

Yeah. I think the best place to find me when I'm doing in real time is on my Instagram, and that's at justineswindellart. So my first name, last name, art. And I do have a website, ww. Justineswindell.com, which has a little bit more of my historic portfolio and a little background information.

But I try to you know, I'm not always super active, but I try to I try to get on Instagram and at least share the the latest and greatest and and communicate with people and, you know, put some stuff in my stories here and there.

Thank you. And there you have it, folks. I wanna again thank Justine Swindell for coming on to the podcast and sharing a bit of her journey. And for Justine Swindle, I am Rob Lee saying that there's art, culture and community in and around your neck of the woods. You just have to look for it.