The Truth In This Art with Multidisciplinary Artist & Designer Walter Cruz

Welcome back to the Truth in His Art. Thank you for joining me for my conversations bridging arts, culture, and community. I am your host, Rob Lee. And if you enjoy this content, leave us a 5 star review on Apple Podcast to show your support. Thank you.

Today, I have a special conversation with a special guest. My next guest is a Bronx based artist, designer, and creative collaborator who, through his multidisciplinary work, is dedicated to exploring black and brown people occupying space. Please welcome Walter Cruz. Thank you for for coming on to the podcast. And before we get into sort of the the deeper, more introspective questions, as as the Aquarius, as the air signs do, could you introduce yourself a bit about your work?

And, I got a sub question there, but I at least wanna start off with that part. Yeah.

I mean, I'm someone that likes to keep it really simple. As you know, my name is Walter Cruz. I live and work and choose to be in the Bronx. I love the Bronx. I'm very much interested in the built environment and art and design and how those things connect and more specifically how they connect amongst black and brown people.

I feel like the architecture and the environment is this thing that, like, we imagine or people imagine, and it becomes real. And part of that is a huge psychological aspect in terms of what people want to do in spaces. Mhmm. So I'm really interested in how that affects the people that look like us, whether you're the one designing it or the one interacting with it.

That makes a lot of sense. So in thinking through that, I'd like to get to sort of the maybe the root or maybe one of those really, really early experiences around, like, maybe design, maybe architecture. But what's what's one that really sticks out to you maybe growing up? Like, man, I saw this, and I was like, damn, this is something I definitely am into.

Easy. The first time I went to Times Square at New York, I think I was like, I was definitely in middle school. So probably like 11 or 12 years old.

Sure.

And it was myself. I have a twin, identical twin, and my mom. And we went downtown, and I was we as soon as we got out the subway, I was just like, what is going on? And who built this? And how do I get a part of this thing?

I just I need to figure out, like, I think up until that point, I was just used to seeing regular neighborhood apartment buildings and houses. So seeing, like, skyscrapers and things up front and billboards, I was just like, this is this is it. This is like I've never seen nothing like this. I was just like, this is what I wanna do. And immediately, I was like, I I have to lock in on this thing, whatever this is.

I didn't even know at the time, I didn't even know what architecture was. I was just like, what is this thing? I wanna be a part of it.

That's not a that's that's good. That's good. Like like, I'll I'll ask this because I've worked this into the podcast, but I think it's Yeah. It's it's a curious question. How how tall are you?

Now, I'm 6 feet tall.

Okay. So

then I was probably, like, 4 10.

So I I asked that because I'm I'm I'm 64. I've told you what have you and Good. As I've gotten older and, like, I've told this before that I wanted to be an illustrator when I was younger and never really any appreciation of architecture. But as I got older, I would definitely look at architecture and look at sort of with the backdrop and sort of cityscapes of place. Yeah.

And I like to almost feel smaller because I've been tall for so long.

That's interesting. Yeah. Yeah.

And that comes to mind when I'm in Baltimore, especially when I'm in New York.

And,

recently, I walk a lot. I walk everywhere I'm at, so I appreciate all of that. Yeah. So in navigating and exploring sort of multiple disciplines, different interests, Like, where do they they intersect? I see art.

I see design, architecture, music.

Yeah.

How do they intersect, and and why for like folks that look like me and you, why is that like a big like part of it? You know, we're who we are, what have you, and you touched on it a little bit. But I wanna see where they intersect and why is that sort of the, I guess, the connective tissue.

Yeah. I would say well, when you're asking that, what I let me think of was, like, I think it was my junior or senior year when I was studying architecture in undergrad. I took a class called, the psychology of architecture or no. Sociology of architecture. And that was really interesting because that was a prior to that, my whole training was, like, you design things and you build it and you build models and you get critiqued.

And then there was this class where it's the human aspect of it of, like, before you do any of that, how do you want people to feel? How do you you actually can, like, literally, to down to the team, manipulate how people feel. Like, I can make you feel bigger or smaller. The space could be 20 foot ceiling, and I could still make you feel small. Or it could be a 8 foot ceiling, and I could still make you feel big.

You know? It's like you can really play with all these different aspects of dimensions and scale and, like, literally create a feeling for the people that enter the spaces that you design. And I had never thought of it that way. I got so used to, like, we're we're known. It's one of those things we take for granted in some ways of, like, we're literally in the built environment.

We're like we live in houses, apartments. We go to libraries. We go to malls, restaurants, bars. We don't always get asked, like, how do you feel in that space? Or did you ever think about who made that space?

Why did they make that space? Why did they make it like that? Why did they choose wood instead of marble versus, like, concrete? You know what I'm saying? So, like, that class, it really shifted my idea around, like all of these things around us, somebody came up with this or a team of people who came up with this.

This didn't just, like, grow out of the ground like a tree that, like, someone intentionally made this thing. So that led me down the path of like, okay. So now I'm thinking about the spaces we inhabit that people design. Now what about the things that go in those spaces? Like, who's designing that?

Who's building whether we're outside, who's building the benches, or who's designing the landscape versus, like, who's creating the couches and the chairs and the things that are inside. And that amongst all of those things early on, I didn't see anybody or I I shouldn't say I didn't see anybody. I didn't have knowledge or was exposed to black people or people of color that were doing those things. You know? It was always, like, from this very Eurocentric perspective of centering white design, whether whatever country you're from, there was a white person.

Like, these are the rules and this is what happens. So when I got out of that environment, I was like, okay. But who else? Like, they had there's no way we've been living on this earth for this long, and there's no black people involved in this thing. So I just I took it upon myself to start researching and reading all these books by black architects and black designers that were like, yeah.

We've been here. These are the things that we've been doing. These are the things that we've been contributing to the canon of these things. And that really shifted. And then there was like, wow.

Now there's, like, a legacy of things that I can be a part of versus Finn. Like, I think sometimes there's and there's unintentional. It's like unintentional ignorance when people say, I'm making the things I didn't see. Right? It really should be, I didn't know those things existed, so I have to make it.

But if that's only because we're naive to believe we're the first ones to do the thing. But if we take the time to do our homework and research, there's people who've been doing this. So I'm more so keen to, like, how am I adding to these legacies of things that people already been doing? I don't have that bravado to think that, like, I'm making something new. It's more of like, how am I adding to this story?

What's another fold I can create versus, like, I don't think there's a need for me to create something new. I rather add to the thing of, like, what's next.

It is it's it's this idea and thank you. It's in the this is the idea that I feel like you're poking at a little bit that I've I'm new to, the the Maya concept in design. Mhmm. What's advanced yet acceptable? Yeah.

And I started thinking of that, and I've, like, for whatever reason, that's got me hooked so much because it's just, like, nothing's really new how we cyclically we keep going back to sort of the say, oh, well, it's this but maybe through this lens. It's, you know, for lack of a better term, it's it's eBay, but it's black, you know, for for lack of a better term. And, you know, because because folks have these, like, really, really original ideas, but often it's the references, and often it's it's like you kinda touched on the the thing that you should mention. It's like, you know, folks are, you know, on this thing of, well, making the things that didn't know exist. It's like you you didn't experience that.

Maybe that's a sort of lack of travel, lack of exposure. I I know some folks who won't travel from one part of Baltimore to the other, and they're like, man, I see this existing. Maybe get out

That's real. And that's real. That's and I think it's actually a really good thing. It's empowering. It's not a negative thing.

It's like like, to me, every time I find out someone from, like, the thirties or forties or anywhere other day that I was not alive was doing these things, Yeah. To me, that's empower it's not I don't feel bad. It's like, oh, shit. Like, that's amazing. Like, I was not I don't have to be I think some or for me, I should say for me, I've changed my idea around what pioneering means of, like, to me, it feels more of like, again, what are we building on top of?

Right? So that you made a step, I make the next step. And who's gonna make this step after me versus, like, I gotta build the whole staircase. You know? Like, that to me is more important.

That's like that's like like a legacy of team building versus like feeling like I gotta carry the whole thing by myself, you know, of like, I embrace that. I love learning about other people who've been doing the thing versus feeling like, damn. I wasn't the first to do this. I'm like, oh, fire. Alright.

And now I need to learn everything that they did so I can build off that.

Yep. And and I think it's almost and that's a good point. I think it's almost at times where and and be and before I go into this next question where Yeah. Almost a reward around having the opposite of that of Yeah. I'm the greatest thing since sliced bread, low carb.

I don't know. But the greatest thing since whatever this is, and it's like, yo, what you do is this, this, and this. You are your references. You are sort of your your sort of influences, your your inspiration, and you add your your context, your experience, sort of your values to it, but there's something that's coming from elsewhere. And your your thing around this I I did a, I did an interview a couple months back.

Yeah.

And I talked to this dude who ran, he's the creator of this I guess, best way I can put it is sort of this counterculture media series. They had, like, TV shows. It's like almost a pop culture news magazine

Uh-huh.

Called, Night Flight. It's New York based, all of that stuff. And he'd asked me. He was like, so this was popping from, like, 81 to 86, and you said you were 85.

Right.

He's like, so how would you have, like, known my stuff, you know, if you weren't around for the majority of it? Right. I was like, I look for the right references come from from the stuff that I like, and they all point back. Facts.

Now maybe that was before it. I love I'm big on history. That's, like, one of my favorite things. It's like, oh, anybody I consider a mentor, I just call them my OGs. Whether it's like you know what I'm saying?

Like, that to me is like that brings me a lot of joy, like, learning about what what else was happening or even just like, I'm big on contextualizing. Right? So even when I'm thinking about the stuff I'm making, I'm always like, alright. So while this person was thinking about this thing and designing this thing, this person on the other side was doing this thing. And, like, what are like, what like, try to create a world around it versus, like, no one's creating an isolation.

So when I'm learning about historical context, I'm always trying to figure out, like, what were the dates so I could figure out why everything was happening at the same time. Because then it's like, oh, shit. So this song came out when this was happening, while this thing was happening, while somebody hit 20 home runs on this like, I'm just always thinking about, like, what is that world versus, like, what is that one event? You know? Does that make sense?

No. It does. It does. It's like this was happening in the world. This happened during that summer.

And when I'm coming up with with questions, you know, I'm always sort of retooling. And I go through books about creativity, and it's not just books about podcasters, books about interviewers. It's Right. General. And I the further I go back, it's just like, oh, so here's this old, like, book on, you know, maybe interviewing techniques from, like, the sixties.

My, oh, let me apply those. Let me see what I can take from that because I think something that's lost as we go further and further, it gets watered down, maybe diluted, but sometimes going back kinda can help you get something as you move forward.

Facts. Facts. It it just all helps. I think it all helps you. Because you know what?

Part of it too, sometimes I think about and this is a book I read. It's called of water and the spirit. Mhmm. And they they talk a lot about, like, the role of ancestors and more specifically what ancestors are. And one of the things I love that they describe beautifully is that, like, ancestors are like this celestial pool, right, of, like, we don't own a set of ancestors.

They're kinda like all of all of them are around all of us. And when we come in contact with each other, if it's right, they're gonna help somebody else out. Like, if me and you meet one of your ancestors, I'm like, yo, I gotta go help Walla versus like, oh, I gotta one of my I'm like, yo, I gotta go help Rob out. You know? So it it, like, thinking about it historically, it creates a space of, like, we're constantly bouncing off of each other.

So I might learn about somebody else's ancestor, and all of a sudden, they're part of Mindfold for x amount of time as I'm trying to figure something out, you know, where it's like it's like a intangible teamwork that's happening the more we learn about what's happened before us.

Yeah. And, you know, to and on that, your your your point about no one's sort of creating, like, in this this solo situation. And I think when I do this and I have these conversations, I gas it up. I'm like, yo, I'm stealing from y'all. I'm getting, like, shit.

I think that reference. Oh, that was a book I immediately As

you said. As you said.

So so in that vein, I'm I'm gonna move into this next question about the sort of the who or the what that inspires you the most and, like, how do these influences, like, shape your artistic vision and your your work ultimately?

Mhmm. Definitely, again, I I should say I can speak to what's been happening presently is I've been trying to be or not trying. I've been very present to, like, what is around me immediately of, like in the sense of, like, can I be as present as possible when I'm out in the world and, like, really accept what's happening in these moments of, like, that's what's led me to make the work that I'm making now that's revolving around, like, concrete and, like, this whole language that we see on the sidewalks and things of whatnot of, like, what we were talking about off, Micah, where 2 people that walk a lot are very much enjoying of being pedestrians and, like, exploring the city through our feet? So one of those things was, like, I keep early on, my dad was like, yo, when you walk down the street, walk looking forward, walk looking as far ahead as possible in the sense of, like, you know, growing up in the Bronx in New York is like, you gotta know what's coming up. Right?

And now I've been doing the opposite of I've been walking looking down because now I'm so like, what this is like the whole map on the floor. And what does that mean? You know? So it's been, like, really interesting to be present to that. I was like, I've missed that because it's been there forever.

Because I got so used to looking ahead that when I finally decided to look it's the same as, like, when people don't always look up. Right? Where we're like, we don't take our time all the time to look up at the sky or, like you know what I'm saying? So, like, I've been doing the opposite of looking down. So that's very much been a motivating factor of, like, there's this whole puzzle, and I wanna figure it out and, like, not just figure it out.

How do I figure it out enough to then manipulate it to do the things I wanted to do so that because most of my work is is really rooted or inspired by, like, how do I create sparks for people that don't necessarily care about art or have time for art using things that are familiar markers of, like, concrete or t shirts or, like, anything that's, like, in the ethos or zeitgeist that, like, I can abstract enough to do what I want, but with you having no real context of what's happening, you can recognize the thing enough to be like, what is it? I don't get it. It's not, like, it's not I know what it is, but it's not the way I'm used to seeing it. So what is that thing? And then that that becomes like the hook for me of, like, alright.

Now you gotta come ask a couple of questions.

The the notion of in engaging folks in that way of, like, no. I wanna wanna open this up for a conversation. Yeah. And this is a running thing where I know here, you know, one of my former guests and, kind of pals, student named Bruce, William, he does this he did this, the series about ghost rivers.

And Oh, sure.

All of these, like, underground rivers in Baltimore, and they're it's painted on in the streets and on the sidewalk showing, like, where this river is at. So right there, you get I love that. The patience at history by looking down.

I love that.

And, you know, I'm one of these dudes and you'll get this because, you know, we're on a saying, we're brothers of this this ilk. I'm up a lot. I'm like, yo, so if the aliens ever come, right? I know when they, you know, I see the ship, I see Galactus or whatever it is. We out here, but then, yeah, definitely, you know, I it's it's not 360, but it's not in one specific area.

You know, like, I you know, we touched on it off my it's sort of the the pacing of places. Right. You know, I last time I was up there in NY, I was just like, yo, I'm moving at a quick pace. I was like, I got my legs right. None of this sort of country bumpkin looking around.

It's like, no, I gotta get to where I'm going. Yeah. You know, that's just what it is. But in other spots, especially if it's a place where people might know me, I'm like, I gotta slow this pace down. It's just Interesting.

Yeah. Or somebody like, yeah, I've been like, yo, they only call me Rob. It's like, yo, truth in this art is moving kinda fast. I'm like,

oh, wow.

So I'm like, no. No. No. No. So it's it's this thing of, you know, kinda keeping your pace and getting to where you're going, but I think there's something when I'm in a place that I'm unfamiliar with, I suppose Mhmm.

That I'm looking around a bit more to absorb. And I find that I get inspiration from goofy things like like, so or even graffiti at times, but just

That's fair.

From surroundings that are new to me.

Yeah.

So in terms of your, you know, more recent work, let's talk about the creative process a bit. I wanna I wanna hear about this. Like, give us a talk about the process as far as, that that initial concept and sort of, like, when you're getting towards a stage where you're you're finished and some of the techniques and and tools and things of that nature. Just give us the give us the the data.

Yeah. I mean, I'm very much somebody that and my friends will laugh, but they joke about it with me of, like, they can't necessarily pin me down in terms of my art practice because I'm someone that, like, I when I have an idea, I think more about what's the best vehicle to get the idea out versus, like, everything needs to be a painting or everything needs to be blah blah blah. It's like, I'm gonna like, you know what? Maybe it needs to be a poem or maybe it needs to be you know what I'm saying? Like, I'm not tied to I have to stick to one thing in order to, like, be a thing.

You know? Sure. So it's hard to pin me down in that way at times because it's like, alright. What is he gonna do next? Because last week it was this, and next week it's this thing.

So in this case, it was more of me, like, really sitting with myself in my studio and being like, what is, like, the most honest materials I can use to tell the stories I wanna tell? And going back to what we were talking about earlier is it it just immediately was, like, concrete of, like it's this thing that I'm interacting with constantly in New York, whether I'm walking on it, whether the buildings are made out of it, whether, like you know, it's just always around us. And then I had, like, a a a moment of, like, why didn't I ever try this before? I was like, I'm always trying to get these same ideas across, but I don't actually use the thing that I'm trying to talk about. Why not and it was also like a why not movement moment of, like, why not use concrete?

I never used concrete. I don't know anything about concrete, but why not? Why not use concrete? So then it became, like, this thing of, like, trust the YouTube University of learning, like, all the things possible. And then in in real time, like going to Home Depot and asking questions and just like, you know what I'm saying?

Just like any way I could learn of, like, what is this material and what do I have to learn about it? And then when I got like a rudimentary grasp of it, then going back to the studio and start experimenting with it. But then also, like, bringing in past experiences of, like I was like, oh, you know, there was there's this place in New York called, The Complete Sculptor. It's like a a art store for a sculpture. And I remember this was literally, like, 5 or 6, maybe even 7 years ago.

I randomly want I I like to just do random things. And I signed up, and I took a class on mold making, like, of your face. Yeah. And then when I was sitting there thinking about concrete, I was like, oh, I could probably make molds, and then I could maybe fill it with concrete. And then I was like, alright.

There's only one way to find out. I gotta buy all these materials, and I gotta try it. So it it really was like me just, like, finding my way through the dark of, like, alright. I have all these ideas. I have to start testing it out once it slowly starts assembling, I'm like, alright, I'm not too crazy.

This idea could work. Then it became like, alright, now we have to refine it. All the while I'm still doing research. I'm like, my big thing is always being intentional. So like, I don't wanna make things that look nice per se.

I more so wanna like, what is the thing? Why, why should it even exist? Right. So like, again, I was thinking about concrete, and I'm thinking about, like, my ancestry of being Dominican. Then I was thinking about these markings I was learning about on the sidewalks and, like, what that language was.

So it was more of like, how do I create items or materials or or pieces that culminate all of those things together between, like, again, architecture, design, and art together of, like, they don't all have to look the same, but how do the I create a language for them to be in harmony with one another. So that was where this body of where it came from was like, if I wanna talk about New York and the environment and all these different things that I interact with, how do I create moments using found objects and concrete and this language that I keep seeing in public on the sidewalks to have that conversation, with people. And that hopefully because honestly, some of the research I did, the the stuff on the ground, the language actually rooted in it was created in PG County. It wasn't even New York in the sixties.

Really?

Yeah. So that was really interesting to learn that. I was like, that goes back to, like, the show is gonna be in Baltimore and this thing was created in PG County. So I was like, there's no such thing as coincidences either. So it's like it was a real full circle moment.

So with that being, like like, one of the things that you discovered through the the the the constant research, which I really dig, like, always just, like, oh, that's an interesting thing. It feels on point for for us. Like, oh, that's something that I can learn, that I can add to this. Exactly. I when I do this at times, I have these questions and I find when people who really really get it, they'll notice on a really obscure reference that pops up.

Yes, man.

So in in your work, do you try to put those if you know you know sort of, like

All the time.

Tell us. Tell us. What's the one that comes to mind?

All the time. All the I mean, even right now, literally, the, like, the paintings, I guess, you would call them, the concrete paintings. Once I figured out how to read that language of the sidewalk color I I call it, like, glyphs, I would call them, was then I was like, alright. So if this color means this thing and this symbol means this thing and these letters mean that thing, how do I create hidden messages in the painting? So all the paintings have these hidden messages of, like, empowerment or questioning, or like, just like once you figure out how to read it, there's a whole different way to look at it, where if you're not yet privy on how to read it, it kinda just looks like graffiti or markings on a concrete surface.

But in reality, it's saying a whole statement, which I think to me is fun of, like, I want you to figure out how to read it because then that changes your whole experience. So, like, you might initially like, oh, this is interesting. Why is this? And it looks like a sidewalk on a wall. And then once you figure out that part, it's like, oh shit, there's like, there's like a whole thing being said on this surface that I didn't realize before.

So I like the idea of, like, making the viewer work for the thing versus just, like, giving you the answer right away.

And so so having that there, having that that that dialogue that's sort of they're inviting folks to experience and be able to either get the references or be curious about sort of those references that show up. Up. So, you know, I I I'm I'm I'm looking at it, like, we're in we're towards the tail end of sort of the the show that's in Baltimore. Right? The Ends this weekend.

Yeah. So Whenever those airs ends 1st week of August.

This this will be how about that? We'll we'll make sure. So, you know, Heather Gray Geller, why why back why back to to Baltimore? Why why back back down here, actually?

Yeah. It actually kinda worked out because, so Hooper House, the the physical location of the show, Matt and I, we we actually went to undergrad together. We studied architecture together, but he was on his way out when I was on my way in. So while I was living in Baltimore studying at MICA, they had a show there, for Bria Sterling, really amazing artist in Baltimore. So I went to our opening and he was there and I was just kinda like, I'm terrible with names.

I I always remember faces. And I was like, this guy looks so familiar. I know this guy. So I'm like, hey. I think I know you.

And then he you know, naturally, he's like, what are you talking about? So then we're talking. And then by the end of the conversation, I was like, oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah.

We went to school together. I just happened to graduate before you did. So then we, like, you know, we just stayed in contact. And then beginning of last year yeah. Beginning of last year, Matt had reached out and was like, hey.

You know, we're re we're renovating the the whole Hooper House, and we wanna have, like, an opening show. Would you be interested in it? And I was like, yeah. Why not have, like, these ideas I've been working on? I'd be honored to be a part of that.

And then part of that fold was bringing in Heather Gray, who was, like, serving as the collaborator to help create the art space within Hooper. So the 3 of us just kinda came together and tried to figure out, like, make this makes sense in terms of a show in this space as it was becoming a new art space within Baltimore.

That's good. And then, and thank you for that. Because, it it helps me sound like a professional as I segue into this next question. Yeah. So, you know, collaboration, creative collaborate.

I see that as one of the the things that the items that sticks out. Yeah. When considering collaborations, when considering partnerships, because I think I think there's a distinction between those. For sure. What's the criteria you you have?

Like, you know, what well, how do you get to yes or how do you get to that no? And what is that decision making process for you? Is it something that is is sort of case by case ever evolving, or are there just, I don't know if this hits. I think this is a green flag. This might be a red one.

I think it's all of the above. I think there's plenty of times where we get the, like, oh, I I could do this. And then you get into it, and you're like, oh, man. What am I doing? Like, why why are we doing this?

But I think in the purest form, I enjoy collaboration because it's like a real way to get inside of somebody else's mind and how they work. You know? I think those are the best collaborations where it's like, it's not necessarily I mean, there's gonna be compromise, but it's not necessarily built on that. It's more of like, where are you trying to get out? What am I trying to get out?

How are you trying to get it out? How am I trying to get it out? Mhmm. And then what makes the most sense out of all of that of, like, I might be like, wow. This we should do it this way.

And then you're like gung ho about why we should do it a different way. And then we have a conversation, and I could be like, nah. The way you're thinking about it, that's really amazing. We should really go with that. You know?

And then that's gonna it's it's like a a a back and forth that that'll keep happening of, like, we can't be too tied to how we want things to come out, you know, where it's more of like how are we actually sitting with each other and listening so that this thing comes out that feels good for everybody versus, like, these are the 4 things that I need, and these are the 4 things that you need. And if we can't agree on that, then this is not a collaboration anymore. Right? I like I feel like that's more a partnership where I feel like a collaboration is way more organic in the sense of, like, it's an ebb and a flow. We're, like, we're figuring it out, making sure we're not minimizing each other.

We're not nobody's building resentment, but we're figuring it out so that by the end of it, we all feel good about it versus a partner I feel like partnerships and collaborations is, like, in some ways, like art and design, right, where design is the solution to something, where art is like the emotion is like, I'm just making this thing, right, where it's like collaborative. People are like, they're moving more like, how are we feeling? How are we doing? Partnership is, like, we gotta get this thing done. So what are we gonna do to get it done?

You know? And that there's also crossovers between both. It's not black and white.

Yeah. They're they well, you know, artist types. And we have all of the colors at our disposal. Sure. Sure.

It's, mixed in. And that's when it gets messy too. It's like, mixed in together.

But that but that's the sort of the thing. And that and that's a great distinction and a great point there because I I think that those those terms are used interchangeably. And, what I look at this as and what I aspire in and even sort of the the precursor to the real conversation, I just how does this how is this a win for both of us? How is this do That's good. For both of us versus, you know, I got these questions and you gonna answer.

I'm just like, nah, bro. I you know, like and, you know, at times, it's I I think it it it does feel at times when you're in those sort of collaborative conversations that it feels more one-sided than it than it should. And you, you know, you think about those things where, you know, I get some weird emails, get some weird DMs back, and I'm like, I don't know. Sure. I would love for you to come on and talk about your work for an hour, and you're not gonna show up in on time or give me the items that I need to get the

That's real too.

And it's sort of, like, you know, you you think about those and, you know, that's sort of now as I've and that's why I said earlier sort of the ever changing thing as as I go through this and do this. You know, the more reps, if you will, you know, like, I don't know. And, you know, you try to give everyone a fair sort of shot and, you know, you try to get everyone sort of same opportunity in space. For sure. Times it's it's just not not there, and those things are alright as well.

Yeah. I think yeah. It's all of I I think you gotta free it of judgment of just, like, sometimes it's gonna work out, sometimes it's not gonna work out. And that above all of that, before the dust settles, communicate. Right?

So, like, if it doesn't work out, communicate, if it does work out, communicate, you know, of like, this is I would do this again and I won't do this again.

You're right.

Don't leave it up for, like alright. Because I think sometimes what happens is people will work on something together and then they don't ever talk again. Right? Whether it was good or bad. It was just so then the people are left with like, damn, was that good?

Was that bad? Or thank God that's over. Like, I'm never doing that again. You know what I'm saying?

Right, and like like early on in doing this, because I I realized, like, I have one thing, and I don't know if you run into this as well, but it's like, I'm a shy extrovert, I guess. I don't know. I don't know if this is true, but I'm a shy individual. So Yeah. And as I said earlier, I take a space and people notice me.

It's like, oh, that's Rob. Oh, that's truth in his heart. I'm like, oh. But I would go through sort of interviews. I'm like, yo, I I hope I'm funny.

I hope I'm interested. I'm insightful or what have you or inspiring an insightful conversation, I should say. Sure. And sometimes I'll get back those flat conversations unlike this. This is this is good.

Unlike this, but I'll get those flat ones. I'm like, yo, I'm gonna hang the mic up. I'm done. It's over. It it it crushes it and you end up reaching back out to your point.

You end up reaching back. You talk to the person and they're like, no, I thought that went really well. I'm like, oh,

I thought

I I thought I wrapped up and thought I'm done.

Correct. Yeah. No. I think check I'm big on checking in with people. I'm like, yo, where we at?

What's up? How are you feeling? How are we feeling? Like, again, whether it's good or bad, I just I think things shouldn't just be left unsaid. You know what I'm saying?

I I think and mainly that part of that is like, again, thinking about each other as human beings of, like, I'm not judging you. I'm just saying I wanna check-in so that we're all on the same page. Yeah. This is, like, absent of judgment. I just wanna make sure that when we walk away from this thing, we all know how everybody feels.

Yeah. Good, bad, or indifferent. I just wanna make sure we're on the same page.

That's And

I sometimes that's hard because naturally, a lot of us, including myself in the past, not so much anymore, are people pleasers. So we don't wanna have those conversations because if it comes back not positive, then it's like, what am I doing? You know, versus, like, just it's cool. That was one instance.

Yeah. And and I I find that before moving to this this last question, you get to the rapid fire ones because you get those as well. Even the great Walter Cruz gets the rapid fire questions. Yeah. I I noticed and I make this sort of distinction now.

Like, I've been saying no a lot more to folks that reach out because, you know, I was saying earlier about the billboards, suddenly folks that would ignore my emails and me reaching out suddenly. Oh, hey, man. I saw the billboard, man. Congratulations. Love to be in a pod now.

I'm like, now I'm being very selective and and and and then in fact, you know, the reality of it is this, you know, folks that, you know, are a little bit more in that sort of cultural space and certainly that creative artistic space, I have the conversations with the artists. I enjoy those conversations a bit more. There are

certain

creative folks that I like talking with, like, you know, macroly speaking. If I talk to someone who's multidisciplinary and they do multiple things, they're in Aquarius, no shots, no shots. It's like, hey, we're on the same page. Or if I'm talking to like a chef or I'm talking to someone who's a photographer and I find that generally they're big movie fans. I'm like, yo, we're we're connecting on this.

Sort of my taste leads it in in in drives it versus the sort of kinda referral, these one side For sure. Partnership sort of things.

Yeah. Yeah. It feels like more more organic. Mhmm.

Yeah. So I'm gonna move into this last question. And as I've I've read a bit about zeal and Black Alliance for just immigration. So let's talk about it because, you know, what was the inspiration and sort of the the goals? Because I see that in your background, and it kind of feels like it's it's alignment to who you are as an individual, but I wanna give you the space.

For sure. I mean, Zillow is incredible, amazing space that it really was the brainchild of my friend, Alan Kwabena Fimpong. He's one of the most remarkable remarkable people I've ever met in my life. And I I mean that, like, in all seriousness. He really is like a a humble person that does so much good in the world.

And when so when he came to me and was like, hey. We didn't know each other within an artistic context. Right? So we met because of community organizing in New York. So when he came to me and was like, hey, I have this idea around an artist and, like, how do we create space for black artists and, like, make it sustainable and make it a cooperative?

I was like, what, Alan? We know we've had so many conversations. We never talk about art. So when he said that, I was like, I already know your pedigree. Count me in.

Like, I don't even have any more questions. Where do I sign up? Let's do this thing. You know? And he's he's just a really beautiful leader, and it it led to this idea of, like, how do we create a space that's, a cooperative a a black worker owned space for black artists to own what they're doing.

Right? So and it and it's gone through many iterations. Right? So when we first started it, it was more of like a physical space, so we learned that artists really needed a physical space. So we had a physical space in Inglewood, California in LA where it was inside it was housed.

We were we had a, like, a live in studio apartment slash art studio that was owned by a black artist in LA. So we were creating that space for black artists out west where, like, you could live there, and then the pandemic hit. So it was like because we started in 2019 and then the pandemic hit. So we had, like, a few artists in there, and then artists had to stay a little bit longer because everybody was locked up or locked in or however you wanna describe it.

Well Right.

And then it's changed. Right? So now currently, it's iteration. It's more it's become more of like a creative agency where we come together as creative individuals, and take on different projects and campaigns and things of that nature. But always with the idea of, like, how are we uplifting black people, black artists, and owning the work that we're creating and like working within this structure of worker owned business versus like a nonprofit or versus, like, independent contractors that are working on their own.

But, like, this space where we're all contributing to this one thing and we're all winning collectively. Yeah. I have and it's and to say that it's also hard. Right? It's hard to create a cooperative.

I don't know if you ever tried it. It's, like, really hard to create a cooperative. It's not easy thing to create. But overall, it's brought together some really amazing people that I'm a huge fan of, whether it's Alan, whether it's Tia, Ty, Eileen, Keenan. I've so many amazing people that have been a part of Zeel.

A key that I'm forever grateful for. Yeah. It's an ongoing thing of, like, it's still continuing to develop, still continuing to grow, but the people who are currently a part of it are just remarkable. I have nothing but great things to say about those folks that that have a special place in my heart. And then Baji, the Black Alliance For Just Immigration, we got connected because, the former ED, Opal Tometi, she used to be on well, not was.

She well, she was the ED, but prior to that or no. Actually, kinda in the same arena. She's one of the people who created BLM, the network. So we were homies, and then she's like, hey. Like, I really need someone to, like, start doing, like, visual design for for this org that I'm running.

And I was like, I'm down. Let's do it. And in practicality speaking, like, I can always use some more money. So I was like, alright, let's do it. But it's really become a home.

It's really become a place where I've learned so much because they are really one of, if not the I would say the leading space that really advocates, for black migrants, not just in the US, but around the world. And it's influenced a lot of my art actually of, like, just being with them throughout the years, sitting in with meetings, going to their retreats. Like, I'm designing, like, a lot of their reports based on the research that they're doing. So I'm reading all of these things of, like, there's just a lot happening to black migrants in the US and globally that are often not spoken about on mainstream media or on larger scales where it's like it's heartbreaking and also not surprising, but it's really informed a lot of the work that I do of, like, just, wow. There's there's they do I feel like I help out with the visuals, but, like, they are, like, they're at Capitol Hill.

They're in the courtrooms. They're, like, on the streets advocating, meeting with migrants. They're, like, doing everything. Any touchpoint around, like, black migrants, they're there, and they're doing phenomenal work that doesn't always get recognized and is super powerful. Like, they are like I I can't imagine a world without them at this point.

Honestly, they're doing such good work, and I'm just honored and grateful that I got to, like, help with the visual side of that, like, helping to simplify or or visualize all of these complicated things that they're working on constantly so that other people can understand what's happening that aren't involved in it from

day to day. No. That's thank you. That's that's great. Yeah.

I think, like, you know, sort of wrapping on that, I think it definitely pins together sort of everything from the sort of creative to the collaborative and Yeah. Even sort of the the sentiment that goes in there of sort of folks that look like you and I and having your background attached to shedding light to it, I suppose.

Fact.

So now we got all the good stuff out of the way.

The rapid fire.

Yeah. Do the rapid fire. You do the rapid fire. As I tell people all the time, don't overthink these, you know, the questions the questions. So you touched on it.

I have to, you know, for this first question Yeah. My answer is I look at the ceiling.

Yeah.

What is the first thing that you notice when you enter a new space?

Oh, the light. Like, what is how is the light coming into play in the space?

Okay. Because, yeah. Yeah. I also look for the exit. You know?

I don't go in any room.

So I just I don't like having my back to exit. But I like to see because light is a a very subconscious thing. Yeah. But we can enter like, I would notice if a spot don't have no windows going to the exit thing, you know, versus, like, if I enter a place and it's flooded with light, it was like, oh, and it creates a different feeling. It's like, oh, wow.

Yeah. Definitely the the exit thing, the window thing, that's a thing that comes from old black man background. My dad just chiming in. Don't go on no rooms with no no exit.

Right. In

fact Is there a shooting here, though?

Just in case. You never know. You gotta stay ready.

One way in, one way out. It's like

Those are the worst places to be.

Those are usually liquor stores. So what is

They're a lot of fun. It's just like like, in case it ever pops off, there's about to be a serious bottleneck of it.

Right. And and I and I will say this. I've noticed, before I move to the next one, I've noticed a fair amount of places and your your the the thing that you're touching on super early Yeah. That the feeling I would have if I go to certain places, new architecture, new design. I'm like, what was the thinking here?

Like, I'll go to certain coffee shops and I that's a smug sniff I did there but I go to certain coffee shops, I'm like, this exit is so where you're paying that is very weird But people are gonna run into each other, and some have hot liquid.

Sleep that bathroom.

You gotta you gotta filter this differently. This layout is I don't know.

So if you're running out in the emergency and you still got your coffee in hand, you you're getting pushed. Yeah. You're getting pushed.

Favorite travel destination? It's like a world of individual.

I don't have one, honestly. I feel like I like to try different well, that's not true. I like to travel different places. But

Or what was the last place you traveled? I I can do that because

Most recently? Oh, yeah. It really was Baltimore. I was there a few weeks ago.

Okay. You know?

And I like Baltimore. Prior oh, no. Actually, that's not true. That's not true. That's not the last place I went to.

It was Puerto Rico. I had a art show there. I I like going I like I like just going to different I I don't have one fair place. Well, that's not I guess if I go eat, but, like like to travel to, I don't I don't have, like, a I can't think of one place. I'm like, I need to go there over and over again.

It's it's funny. I'm I'm gonna mark down as this this fictional checklist that I'm putting together. You said Baltimore, so I'm gonna put down Baltimore.

I like Baltimore, honestly.

But you you mentioned something a second ago, like, is a little bit of an aside that actually is the, the crux of this next question. For you, what is your quintessential New York food?

Oh, that's easy. This is that is so I think it's, from my understanding, it's unique to New York. It's called well, colloquially, it's called Chino Latino. So it's it's like there's this there's a series of restaurants around the 5 boroughs where Chinese immigrants from different Spanish speaking countries migrated to New York, and they all opened restaurants that is a mix of their Chinese culture and whatever country they came from. So, like, there's, like, Chinese Venezuelan, Chinese Peruvian, Chinese Dominican, chan like, you know what I'm saying?

They all have pretty much the same menu. But specifically, there's this one called, Ladinastia, which is like on the upper west side of Manhattan.

And I've

been going there for as long as I can remember, but that place is like is amazing. It's consistent, and it's like serious comfort food. And it's it's trippy because if you go there and you close your eyes and you just listen, and all the workers are speaking fluent Spanish, and then when you open your eyes, they're all older Chinese men. Right. So it, like, it throws you off, but the food is amazing.

The food is amazing.

Yeah. Just I just pulled it out. So, yeah, like, I like those those odd fusions, and that's Yeah.

Yeah. It's so good. There's I think there's even I don't know if it was Vice. Somebody did, like, a little video on it of, like, the history of it. Might have been Vice.

Nice. Alright. So here here's the last one. Because because we we we have some, I know the artists get real weird about this question. Yeah.

They they they like, well, depends. What shade? What is your favorite color?

It changes a lot. But actually, for a few years now, it's definitely been yellow, for sure.

Yeah. Yellow.

Okay. I love yellow.

Yeah. Yellow yellow yellow is kind of

It's like it's like bright. It puts you in a good mood. Yeah. I was like it's a it's a consistent color, I should say. It's a stable color.

There there are

songs about the color yellow. No.

It's a great

color. Mine's is gray. Interesting.

Like, light gray, darker, it doesn't matter.

Like, that that sort of heather, just neutrality. Something's gray. Yeah. Something's gray. And, you know, if I'm being, like, particularly, petty, it's probably oxblood or, you know, something like that.

Like that. It's

one of my enemies.

Like I said, you know, it's a failed artist. I don't know. So with that, know, I think we covered a lot, and I think this was a fun conversation. And Yeah.

For sure.

And, you know, I wanna give you the space and opportunity to, like, you know, in these final moments, 1, I wanna thank you for for coming on in these final moments. I wanna give you the space and opportunity to, plug, plug, plug away. Social media website, all that good stuff, Floorshares.

Well, thank you for having me, Rob. This was really fun. You know? I think I feel like there was definitely some great synergy here for us. Our first time really getting a chance to chop it up.

Yeah. I mean, only thing I could really I guess right now is I have some great prints for sale that are part of or they're a print version of one of my pieces in the current show at Hooper House Yeah. That I'm really proud of. It's something I've been working on. The image took, like, a year to create, and it took a team and then came together.

So it's been really awesome to figure out a way to make it accessible to folks. So creating the print made a lot of sense because the original version is, like, 5 feet by 6 feet. So it's cool to have something you could take home that's not that big and fits inside your house or your apartment. And if you want one of those, you can find me on Instagram at the number 2 oceans. DM me, and we'll figure it out together.

Because part of that I've been testing out is having a sliding scale for pricing versus, like, one price is, like, I wanted to create a range so that nobody felt left out from being able to buy the work, which isn't, I guess, that traditional or common, but I wanted to try it probably by the time this goes up because I'll be there tomorrow because I have a show or I will call it a presentation that's opening at, the last resort artist retreat in Waverly. Yeah. So if you're all around, come by. It's up for the whole quarter. So it's up till November.

So it'll be up to stop by the house. Yeah. I'm just grateful to be here. I'm just grateful to be here.

And there you have it, folks. I'm gonna again thank Walter Cruz for coming on to the podcast and spinning the yarn with me. And for Walter Cruz, I am Rob Lee saying there's art, culture, and community in and around your neck of the woods. You've just got to look for it.