Welcome to The Truth of His Heart. I am your host, Rob Lee. Thank you for tuning in to my conversations bridging arts, culture, and community. Today, I got a special conversation with a special guest who, for the last 30 years, has been a Harlem based painter with works exhibited worldwide. Known for his, quote, unquote, lowbrow conceptual art, which reflects an ambivalence about American culture, He's covered subjects ranging from gangster rap to sports and to New York culture.
Rob Lee:Please welcome Tom Sanford. Welcome to the podcast.
Tom Sanford:Well, thank you, Rob. It's a real honor and pleasure to be here. You know? I've been listening to your podcast, and, you know, you're an interesting character, man. It the during the Knicks playoffs, they had this meme, like, on Instagram, right, where they were sort of comparing Jalen Brunson to that song from Hamilton, like, about how how, you know, writing the Federalist Papers, John Jay got sick.
Rob Lee:So, like,
Tom Sanford:that was like Julius Randle going down. And then, I don't know. Was it James Madison, I guess? Like, he wrote a bunch of essays, but then Hamilton wrote the other 51 or whatever it was. It's like like Jalen Brunson, you know, like, kicking ass in the playoffs.
Tom Sanford:And and that I was just thinking, like, as I've been listening to your podcast the last couple months, you've seen it come out with 1, like, every 20 hours. And I, you know, I I don't know how you do this because I have had a podcast or helped with the podcast in the past, and I know how much work it takes to get one of these things together. And I just I just don't know where you find the time, man. But, anyway, it's a real, pleasure. I feel like I know you if I listen to, you know, 50 hours of you talking at this point, but, it's cool to be on here with you now.
Tom Sanford:Thank you so much for taking the
Rob Lee:time. Absolutely. Thank you. You know, it's it's it's really dope, and and I I will say when you you mentioned the Knicks. Next, right, so looking at your work, and we're definitely going to dive into it, but I just want to at least say this while while we're on that that subject, you know, looking at some of your work and then following it and then following you and then having, you know, Sharon DuPada and having you come on and inviting you on, and in some ways, it really reignited my love for the Knicks, if I'm being honest.
Rob Lee:Like, you know, I'm here, I got the I got the wild VPN. You know? I'm I'm in, the Middle East or something. I was like, watch this Knicks game real quick. Doing a playoff run.
Tom Sanford:It was a it was a fun playoff run. You know? Of course, it's it's a shame that it's over, but, I can't complain about the c season we had, especially given, all the injuries and that sort of thing. I, yeah, I I I think the Knicks are suddenly, like, the most lovable team in, in the NBA. You know?
Tom Sanford:How can you how can you dislike this Jalen Brunson, this guy who, like, it it you know, having a son who loves to play basketball and, you know, he's a a 5 foot white kid. And I'm and I'm I'm seeing Jalen Brunson play. I'm like, this guy has no physical gifts that that you won't have. He's just the hardest working, most disciplined, smartest player in the game, and he's become arguably the best guard in the game. So and he's just also just such a great guy.
Tom Sanford:You know? He, like, never says the wrong thing, takes total accountability for his team. He's just like he's just, you know, like, the kind of nerdy dad basketball fan's perfect hero. You know? I just love the guy and the rest of the team as well.
Tom Sanford:But, you know, you Brunson's amazing.
Rob Lee:Absolutely. Absolutely. And it was definitely very fun to watch and, you know, not having a team here in Baltimore. We we have one close with with the Wizards, but, you know, that that, you know, for that time, it's like I wanna be following the Knicks a bit more and also making it a point to get back up there to New York a bit more. Like, you know, as I was saying before we got started, I definitely felt the love, and that's in how we got connected.
Rob Lee:So it's just great. So as we start off with the, you know, sort of beginning, you know, we're going to switch the gears from, you know, sort of like basketball a little bit to, to the art side of things. So before we get to the deeper, more introspective questions, could you share, if you will, your first art experience, whether it's in the appreciation, whether it's in the making, or just general awareness of, like, art creativity?
Tom Sanford:Well, I just wanna you haven't mentioned my glasses yet.
Rob Lee:Oh. Oh. I'm I'm going to. I'm going to.
Tom Sanford:Okay. Alright. Alright. Anyway, yeah. So the how did it all start?
Tom Sanford:I don't know. Like, I I have recollections of my childhood, but they aren't that strong. I'm all 50 years removed from being born now almost. But, but when my when my father's asked this question, what he says is that, like, most kids start drawing when they're, like, 3 or 4 years old, and they probably stop when they're 8 or 9. But Tommy, he calls me Tommy, Tommy just kept on drawing.
Tom Sanford:And probably the reason that that was it it it goes back to, like, having, like, a little bit of affirmation early on, I think. Like, I remember and this is one of my earlier memories. Like, I was in the equivalent of kindergarten. I actually I I I went to school in England when I was young. I'm not I'm not British, but my dad well, my parents, my family were moved to England when I was 3 years old.
Tom Sanford:My dad had a job that moved in there. And, so I was in the equivalent of, like, kindergarten, and there was it was kinda like it was some sort of like after school or extra week of school. So I remember it was around Easter time, and it was like it wasn't really school, but it was like, kinda like the equivalent of camp or something or day care. And they decided to have a drawing competition, and I made a drawing of a guy with a parachute on, if I remember correctly, and I won the competition. The drawing was probably not very good at all, but I got in my head that I was pretty good at drawing because I won this little art competition in my class.
Tom Sanford:And so I I just kinda went with that, and I kept on drawing. And you know, all through elementary school and, then when I came back to the States in middle school and high school, I was, you know, one of those. I was kinda like the the drawing guy in my class. There was another I had another friend, this guy Will Stevens, who was like my dearest friend from middle school, who was also really into art. And he was also he was, like, a comic book guy, and he introduced me to, you know, like, Marvel and DC and all sort of stuff.
Tom Sanford:I was never really into reading comic books, but I certainly love to copy the drawings, and that's how I, like, learned anatomy, you know, like, kind of the the Marvel style, you know, initially from copying things. And then eventually, you know, you you sort of, through osmosis, kind of pick it all up and you you can kind of fake it yourself. Like, I, you know, I when when when asked, I was and tell people, you know, learn to draw by copying stuff because, like, that's how everyone learns everything. You know? Like, the the way that one, learns to paint is by going to the museum and trying to work out how artists do things and, reworking them and redoing them.
Tom Sanford:Like, you know, most of the your audience are probably other artists, and they probably can identify with this. Like, when I go into the art show or museum, it's not really that it's not such a soulful experience. It's more like me, like, looking at stuff and trying to work out how they did it and Yeah. And steal their secrets and, you know, like, I'll maybe I'll use that in a painting. It's it's it's that's kinda how I, evaluate art now.
Tom Sanford:Or maybe not so much anymore. Maybe maybe probably certainly when I was, like, kind of a little younger and sort of trying to work out what I was doing. But, anyway, that's a long way of saying that, my, you know, I didn't my my family is certainly is in no way, antagonistic to the arts, but we weren't the kind of family who were going to museums on the weekend. We, it was just, like, not particularly my parents' interest, but, I I kind of just became, like, the drawing guy. And I was never, in my opinion, in retrospect, like, one of the better art kids in my school or my class, but I was, pretty committed to it.
Tom Sanford:And, you know, eventually, you do it for long enough, you kinda have to stick with it.
Rob Lee:No. Thank you. And one fellow, like, the drawing, the art kid, growing up, especially a bespectacled one, and I must thank you for wearing your glasses for this interview.
Tom Sanford:If I wasn't wearing them, Rob, I couldn't see you. I'm really blind.
Rob Lee:As a person who's worn glasses since 3, yes.
Tom Sanford:Yeah. I think I 7 or so in my case. But, yeah, I got a pretty, substantial, prescription. I think I'm 6 0.06.5 at this point in my respective eyes.
Rob Lee:Yeah. It's it's just all astigmatism because it's as my partner says, she was like, when you take your glasses off, your eyes disappear like a drawing. I was like, that's spicy. But, yeah, you know, it's it's really cool, and and thank you for for sharing sort of the the the early stages, sort of that first stage, because, you know, when I think of, you know, sort of creativity, for me, this was sort of the second, if not third, sort of attempt at something creative, and I've stuck to it, and I've loved it. You know, I've done podcasting for in earnest for about 15 years, but there are other moments early on where I it was just a jerk on a microphone, a little handy recorder, and capturing conversations, capturing things that I thought was funny, things that I would never play now as a 39 year old.
Rob Lee:It's like, no, can't do that, can't put that one out there. That is stupid. That's just not good from a production standpoint. But, even the the drawing piece, right, and I and I like that you you're touching on sort of like how you might look at something now, how does that get made, how do they do that. I was one of those kids that would try to draw, wizard, the covers from, like, wizard wizard magazine back in the day.
Rob Lee:That was what I was into. And, and even now, in some of the research that I do and kind of getting inspiration for questions, it's gentleman thievery. You're just stealing. We we're just stealing, you know, in one way or the other, but we're putting our own turn on it, our own spin on it too.
Tom Sanford:Yeah. It's like Jonathan Lethem said, it's it's it's culture is a book. It's like everyone makes their own page, and, like, we're all reacting to stuff in the past. It's not thievery. You know?
Tom Sanford:Like, the the the history behind you is all you is is your your property in a way as an artist or a creator. Our notions of intellectual property in our in our kind of legal culture are way out of whack. You know? Like this all these, rulings against Warhol for the prince photograph or whatever the case may be. You know, like, thing no one is creating in a vacuum, and everything is stolen.
Tom Sanford:And and that's the the beauty of, and the power of human intellect. You know? Like, we're we're a big kinda hive mind. You know? We're we're all working with each other's, past efforts, and that's the kind of beauty of culture.
Tom Sanford:You know?
Rob Lee:Yeah. And, you know, when I'm doing this and definitely I have something that's sparking some interest from me that I see in the background for you. But, you know, and folks reach out to me and ask me, how do you how do you do this? How do you do that? You know, what do you use to record?
Rob Lee:I don't gatekeep the information. Information is to be shared. Like, I've been doing this for a long time, and if someone is goodly enough to ask me a question around it, it's just like, hey. And having that approach has has opened up the opportunities to educate, to be it, to literally be a teacher. And, you know, during the the the summer, I'll have, like, Professor Rob Lee will be a title, you know, because I'm gonna be teaching at a college, and that feels, like, really cool.
Rob Lee:And and then speaking with folks about it and just, like, you know, sharing with them, this is not something, you know, that's new or groundbreaking that only I'm goodly enough to do. This is something that you all can do and really making it relatable in that way.
Tom Sanford:Mhmm. Yeah.
Rob Lee:So, you know, I see I see Don Mattingly behind you. I see Donnie Baseball behind you. So I got to ask, could you, if you will, describe your current work, you know, sort of like the process and sort of like ultimately, what is it about? Like, I see sort of, quote unquote, the lowbrow thing. I see, you know, the references to rap music.
Rob Lee:I see the references to sports, obviously, and New York culture overall. And like I said, I fell in love with that, like, all of that sort of stuff and then diving down. I was like, this is great. So describe your describe your work.
Tom Sanford:Well, you know, I don't really have an elevator pitch. It's I you know, whenever I'm asked this, it gives me some anxiety because I'm really trying to work it out myself. Over the years, I basically, I I guess, have followed my interests, and, my interests are common interests with with many people. You know? Like, at the at the moment, at least over the last couple of years, I've sort of become like a de facto semi pro Knicks fan, and it's just a strange turn that my my career has taken.
Tom Sanford:And one thing that I've always done is try to follow any rabbit hole that that pops up for me as far as I can. So, like, in most basic terms, I I bay I make pretty conventional paintings, you know, like wall paintings, easel paintings, sometimes murals. They're made with acrylic paint. I didn't always work with acrylic paint. I used to paint with oil, but I made, the decision maybe about a decade ago to switch over to acrylic for mainly practical reasons.
Tom Sanford:One of and they're they're idiosyncratic but practical. Like, one of the reasons was that I I in order to, like, not become, like, a big balloon of a human being, I I try to exercise every day, and I have a rowing machine. And for a while, I had my rowing machine in my wife and I's bedroom, and she was getting sick of that. And so she wanted me to move it somewhere else, and, like, the only, like, practical place to put it was my studio. And so I thought, well, it wouldn't be great for me to be, like, breathing heavily with lots of, you know, turpentine in the room.
Tom Sanford:So I should probably consider acrylic paint. And the other thing is my paintings, they've always looked pretty plasticky anyway, even when I painted with oil. You know, like 15, 20 years ago, I was making slightly different paintings. They were more of the hip hop paintings back then. They were they were kind of like look like lowbrow Renaissance paintings, you know, where I would maybe I would put in Tupac where Jesus might be in, like, a van der Weyden painting or something like that, or I might remake, like, a Caravaggio, about, like, you know, some sort of historical, you know, not historical in in a very short term sense, image of something that happened in popular culture.
Tom Sanford:But but more so more recently so I'm I'm painting in in acrylic. I and the other thing about acrylic paint, which, if you're if you're a painter, you would know, it kind of forces you to be a little bit more direct. Like, because things dry quickly, you can't really massage the paint on the canvas, which makes it a little bit more like a drawing process in that you're not adjusting things. You know, you you can you can you can use transparency to, make transitions and fades and things like that, but you really can't do it through, you know, laboring on the canvas, which makes it you have to kind of go with your mistakes, you know, in a way. And and it makes you move more quickly as a result.
Tom Sanford:And and I I, you know, I I I feel like certainly half of my life is gone, and I've got a lot more paintings I wanna make. So if I can get these things done a little quicker, that that's, wonderful, and acrylic can help help with that. But on subject matter, which I think is more of the the point of the question, about I know. I make I I I kinda make paintings about something I'm interested in my life, the popular culture, the people around me, the places around me. But about 3 or 4 years ago, this guy, miss Marcello Ricci, who's a wonderful guy, who's a gallery down, on the lorry side called My Pet Ram, He just opened his art gallery, and he's a big basketball fan too.
Tom Sanford:And he wanted to do an exhibition about the and or for the NBA playoffs. And he knew that I'd made a bunch of paintings over the year of of years about the Knicks, or of maybe not so much about the Knicks, but of Knicks players, heroes of mine, things like that. And so he asked me to to to, make a painting for the show, and I made a painting of, you know, like, kind of the most, popular Nick, the best Nick, Walt Frasier. It was, like, kind of like a painting of Clyde with his fedora on, and, you know, he was in front of a Rolls Royce. And, and, you know, like, he's got the Puma Clydes and, you know, it's like and I called it, you know, Clyde, the, like, the flyest man on earth or something like that or Clyde so fly.
Tom Sanford:I forget exactly what the name of that painting was. But the the point is that painting got, a little bit of play on, like, Nick's Twitter, which is a real, institution. And, it led to that the thing got sold from the show, but then another guy really liked the painting and was a big Knicks fan. And he he won it, but I wasn't available. And so he he commissioned me to make a painting.
Tom Sanford:And this guy, he has 3 children who he'd named after the sort of New York trinity. He named 1 after, Earl Monroe, 1 after Wall Frasier, 1 after Willis Reed. They're they're middle names. You know, they're they're they're they're middle names, not so, you know, there's, like, one that had the middle name Monroe, middle name Frasier, middle middle name Reed. And and so that painting that I made for him, which is a painting of these guys, like, they were kind of playing at Rucker Park or something like that, but they're in their Knicks uniforms, it it caught the attention of the Knicks, and they put him on a TV commercial during Knicks games with his kids, like, was super cute, and his wife, and he's, like, talking about how he, you know, grew up loving the Knicks, and eating and he named his kids after them.
Tom Sanford:And he and he got this painting made of of these players that he loved. And I guess during the interview, the whoever was, filming or directing was like, wait. Who made this painting? And so they ended up coming to me, and I and they made a commercial about me as well. And I and and from there, I sort of became, like, a recognizable Knicks fan, and there's this little ecosystem of sort of semi pro Knicks fans.
Tom Sanford:People who, you know, like, do fan engagement stuff, or are just, like, have incredible collections of Knicks memorabilia and things like that. And so I kind of, got involved with that, and, like, I just started getting a lot of engagement from Knicks fans. And, it it was really interesting, and and I I really appreciate it because, frankly, I much prefer to hang out with Knicks fans than, like, Art World people, and talk about the Knicks, you know, as opposed to, you know, bitch about real estate. That's what people do in the art world. And so, that was pretty dope.
Tom Sanford:And, you know, it just, like, led to a whole bunch of stuff. And eventually, I I hooked up with this guy, Steven Dalikian, who, has this really incredible Instagram profile called, bocker back pages where, like, after every Knicks game, he would make, like, a fake, like, kind of, back page of the tab like, the tabloids sort of headline about the the the Knicks game the night before with a kind of a jokey, rework of, like, a movie poster or, a hip hop album or something like that about what happened the previous night's game. So, like, Deuce McBride had a big game. He might do, like, a Deuce McBride, Deuce Bigelow male. I don't know.
Tom Sanford:Like, what he's like he does all these kind of funny headlines. Anyway, so, Steven asked me if if I might wanna do collaborate with him and make some T shirts and stuff. And so we started doing that, which, like, very quickly took started taking up a lot of my time, but was was super cool, though. It wasn't like a an incredibly good, money making scheme. However, we we have had some t shirts that really kinda blew up in the New York area.
Tom Sanford:This one particularly, my captain clutch t shirt here, is probably the most, this season, maybe the the biggest, like, unofficial, unlicensed piece of Knicks merchandise out there. I'm, you know, I'm hoping that I I don't out myself and have the Players Association come after me now, but but, it was just super fun, doing that sort of stuff. But so, you know, and in the process of this cup couple years process, I I've just ended up making more paintings about New York sports because for me, like, I think a lot of, you know, men of American men, men of my generation, just men generally, like, I can really only express my emotions through sports. Like, my wife always tells me, like or appeals to me. Like, the only time I ever see Tom cry is during sports movies or, you know, or, like, during the playoffs or or any Knicks game.
Tom Sanford:Like, I'm I'm, like, I'm sitting in my basement in front of my iPad yelling at the thing. You know? And the the the ecstasy that I feel after even, like, the smallest Knicks win is, you know, greater than any drug or any alcohol. You know? It's, you know, I like like, you know, it's it's not an uncommon condition to be, like to, kind of, put all your passions into sports, but I I definitely enjoy doing that.
Tom Sanford:And I I love the the kind of weird culture of American sports, very much. Like, it's a it can be a little bit, cringeworthy and and ultra macho, but, on the whole, there's a lot of love and passion and, excitement about sports and that that excites me.
Rob Lee:Yeah. I mean, my, you know, like, my my partner, thank you for that, because, definitely it adds, you know, a lot in there. It makes me know, you know, as far as revisiting, I'm going to be diving in because, you know, diving in a bit further because, you know, I got the link to your website and I was just going through. I was like, a lot of stuff in here. So and criticism in there to wink, wink, hint, hint.
Rob Lee:But, you know, as we kind of look at some of the like influences and, you know, are what influences come to mind like for you when you think like, okay, I really like this particular person's work or what have you, you know, you know, when I I do this and it's always funny when I talk to certain folks, depending on where their their background is, if they're a fine artist or curator, what have you, they come at me from one perspective. They're more on the sort of cultural end of things. They look at me from this perspective. I've heard anything from Nardwuar to, you know, not Larry King as much, but maybe James Lipton. I've I've gotten anywhere from that sort of spectrum as far as interview style.
Rob Lee:Right? And, or even Charlie Rose, one of my buddies, like, you got a Charlie Rose thing going on with you. Who who are your influences? What have you lifted, if you will, from from them? Was it style?
Rob Lee:Is it sort of the way that you depict?
Tom Sanford:Well, you know, I I guess, visually, you know, my stuff is relatively lowbrow. There's obviously, like, out of a comic book or cartoon sensibility. And I I got a lot of that stuff from comic books and, as I mentioned earlier, drawing from them. Sure. And also when when I was younger, you know, growing up in England, there was this you you wouldn't know what this is, but it's something called the Beano, which is a a kind of a comic book.
Tom Sanford:It was like a hardcover comic book, but they also had some some softcover ones as well that I guess you get weekly. It was it was just like a a, you know, a a a comic that I liked to read. You know, it it wasn't, you know, not a superhero comic book. It's about, you know, kinda kids and doing pranks and stuff like that. So those are kind of early influences.
Tom Sanford:And then, you know, as I, like, learned more about art and, you know, kind of picture making generally. I guess, like, you know, the the the most of my influence, I think, are relatively obvious. You know, like, I I when I was kind of college age, I was willing to Peter Saul, who's a, a an American painter who, you know, is pretty well known these days. He's become more popular in later in life than he was back then. You know, obviously, there's a lot of, like, art crumb in my work.
Tom Sanford:Like, there's a lot of, self deprecating anxiety, that's like that's really like many artists, that's part of my sort of driving force. Other you know, a lot of my influences kinda came from people that I interacted with or worked for. Like, when I got out of college, I, you know, I I had an I was an art major, and, you know, if you're an art major from any college that you you may have gone to, you either basically have to become an artist or get used to flipping burgers. So I didn't you know, I wasn't gonna yell to get a job. So, I ended up working for artists, and, one that was particularly influential on me was this guy Alexis Rockman, who is an incredible painter who makes art that's kind of about our culture's imagination, about the environment and, science fiction sort of put together.
Tom Sanford:Like, he he he he makes paintings that when he first started making them, like, in 19 eighties, seemed like, apocalyptic futures, and and now they're like they're like, what's actually happening? But, he he's an incredible technician. I worked for him several for several years after I got out of school and really learned a ton from him. Also, another artist that was important to me was it's like Deborah Kass, who I worked for for several years after school. Other artists that are really influential on me, like, on my style or the way I think about things.
Tom Sanford:Like, I I really like the work of of this guy named Ashley Bickerton, who recently died of of cancer, but he was, one of the East Village artists who kinda came out of the, the kind of neo geo scene of the late 19 eighties, like Hammond, Meyer, Weissman, Jeff Koons, Who else? You know, various others. I'm blanking on this. I'm nervous. But, I I guess I could keep on going.
Tom Sanford:You know, I really like German expressionism. You know, people like, Otto Dicks, George Gross, stuff like that. I, you know, I like artists that sort of show the, sort of underbelly and uncomfortable, aspects of humanity, like the kind of seething, wretched aspects of of existence. And I I I, you know, I'm I'm kind of incapable of making anything beautiful, and so you identify with the artists that kind of, are useful to you in a way. You know?
Tom Sanford:I try to think of other artists off the top of my head. I I'm I've recently I'm I'm gonna do a little show up in a group shop in in New London, Connecticut, and and they asked me to make a painting about New London. And so I, of course, made a painting of Berkeley Hendricks as he's like a you know, a great, favorite of mine and influence, I guess, in in my work. And he was a New Londoner. People don't know that, but, you know, he's an incredible artist.
Tom Sanford:There's too many to, you know, to to even name, but, you know, I could keep on going all night if you want, Rob.
Rob Lee:No. No. No. No. That's that's that's great.
Rob Lee:And, you know, I was I was I had to pat myself on the back. You didn't see me doing it, but when you said r crumb, I was like, okay. The brain still works, and my eyes still works. I'm seeing what I'm seeing, and so that's
Tom Sanford:That's true.
Rob Lee:That's wonderful. And and thank you, because it they, I've got multiple tabs open of different references or different influences that are there. And I was like, alright, looking that up, looking more of that up, and there we go. Because as I've said in this podcast that I have conversations with you guys, you think it's for me to interview you guys and have you guys share your story? No.
Rob Lee:No. No. It's to make me seem more interesting. That's really what this podcast is about. This is an ego stroke, if anything.
Rob Lee:But so so I wanna I wanna switch gears a little bit, and it's it's gonna be another question I wanna revisit on, but I at least wanna go to to this piece, especially where we were talking that as far as some of the folks that you've you've worked with and and and gotten those sort of, like, you know, that those relationships with, maybe that sort of modifying your your your or not modifying, but, adding to the the way they should think about your your work and and and going through sort of your work. What at what point and I think a lot of people listening to this will feel will feel this question. At what point did you fully commit to, like, I'm gonna be an artist? Like yeah, because, you know, it's it's those moments when we have to take the leap. And as I was sharing before you and I got started, I'm at one of those inflection points myself, so I'm I'm very curious.
Tom Sanford:Okay. Well, you know, there's there's there's different points that one could point to. But, when when you you tipped me off with some of these questions, so I gave this a little bit of thought. And I I'm gonna go with this. I so when I went to college, I thought that I would be, go into finance.
Tom Sanford:I would be an economics major. My my dad worked for a bank, and and my the school I went to, economics was, like, the most popular major, and so it just seemed like what one would do. You know, I grew up in a affluent suburb in Westchester after we lived in England, and all of the, parents were basically, you know, business people of one sort or another. They might have been a doctor, a lawyer, a business owner, you know, a guy working on Wall Street, that sort of thing. So if you grow up in that sort of environment, those leave the things that you think are the possibilities that that you know, things you could do when you grow up.
Tom Sanford:And so I it never even occurred to me that being an artist was a a possible profession. It was just sort of like a hobby. But then I went to college and, while I was taking economics classes, I wasn't really paying much attention in them or doing much work in them. But I was, I always took an art class because I enjoyed art, and I knew I could get a good grade in it because I knew I would work very hard in it. And during my my sophomore year there, I had this professor, this guy Archie Rand, who was, an interesting character and, you know, an excellent artist in his own right.
Tom Sanford:But sort of at least within art schools in New York, I I feel like a kind of like a a famous, art educator. Like, everyone has a story about Archie or an opinion on Archie. But, so I I took this class, and I think pretty early on, Archie realized that I was, like, putting in more work than I nest that I necessarily needed to in the class. And so I I came to him and I was like, Archie, I love this. And, like, what can I what what can I do more?
Tom Sanford:And he's like, okay. This week for homework, you're you're not gonna do what I tell everyone else to do. You're gonna make me 20 paintings. And so I I that week, I, you know, I went down to, Pearl Paint. This is back before Dick Blick had taken over the art supply industry, And I I got myself, you know, like, 20 of those canvas boards, and I made 20 paintings of this, that, and the other thing.
Tom Sanford:And, I came into class the next week, and I put him out in the all the hallway because he used to do little critiques in the hallway. And he looked at them for a few minutes, and I said, so what what do you think, Archie? And he's like, well, I think you need to do 20 more. And so I went back. I did 20 more the next week.
Tom Sanford:Bring him in, and I show him, okay, Archie. I made 20 more paintings. You know? What do what do you think of these? And he's like he's like, shit, kid.
Tom Sanford:I don't know, but I know you're an artist. And so at that point, like, I kinda started to take myself seriously. And, I I decided I'd be, like, an art, made double major, economics and art, but I really wasn't doing any work in my economics classes. In fact, I managed to get I think it was it was a c of some sort. I don't know if it was a c minus or c plus, but the school I went to, the grade inflation was such that anything in the c range was a is a tantamount to failure.
Tom Sanford:Like, that that that that was a good indication that I I should not be, doing economics if in econometrics I managed to get something in the c range. And it wasn't even till the final class before the before the final exam when the when the professor was reviewing the material that I even realized that everything we've been working off the entire semester have been one regression. And I was like, oh my god. I'm so fucking lost. And so I better go into art.
Tom Sanford:And then I became an art my major with a with an econ minor. And I've never, used that econ for anything, and, I've, you know, become an artist. So here we there we are. You know?
Rob Lee:Thank you. That's that's that's great. It's like that that econ piece is solely sliding. I was like, from double to minor to I don't use that. And Yeah.
Rob Lee:Like, I I had to come to a point, you know, where I I thought I'm gonna be a rapper at one point. That was a thing. And I thought it was gonna be a comic artist and, you know, that was a thing. And, you know, I I did the whole, I did business school and but did the science side, like, bachelor's of science and did the in analytics, but I was always looking for the sexy creative work and then having the analytics sort of, like, back end fill that. It's like that's what I will get in with because there's no money in art, you know, the thing that we're all told, and there's no career in it.
Rob Lee:How will you eat? You wear size 13 in shoes. You're getting bigger, so your shirts are more expensive. Things of that nature. And, making sort of that choice, but, you know, coming to it after kind of losing sort of what that identity was, as a professional white collar moving up the corporate ladder, that that wasn't going to be the the long term for me, and I kind of got that at a relatively young age, of like 24.
Rob Lee:You know, you shouldn't be burned out at 24, and that's when I discovered and and really dove into the idea of podcasts. I was always, like, an audio file or radio nerd, but wanting to dive into that a bit further and then finding those points where they kind of come together, right, where, you know, I just remember I had, like, and I think I've shared this story before, where I had maybe $500 left, went across the street from my job to Best Buy. You know, it was like between checks, and I was like, yo, what is the recording gear? I need a fast track pro and a couple microphones. That was the the story.
Rob Lee:That was the beginning of it. So realizing that relationship between having some funds and just the desire to do it. And 15 years later, we're we're still doing
Tom Sanford:it. Mhmm. Yeah. You were down to the felt. 100%.
Rob Lee:So I want to hear hear about this, and I may have saw this in in an interview ad because, like I said, I do a deep dive. I saw maybe some videos out there, a few different things. So let's talk a little bit about your your first exhibition. I wanna hear a bit about that.
Tom Sanford:Well, I think is, you know, you I I know what you're asking about, but it wasn't actually my first exhibition. So if you want me to talk about, my first exhibit the first exhibition I did was a show in Tokyo, which, hat was in 2001. But I think what you're asking about, because I see that twinkle in your eye, Rob, because you're probably talking about the, the Tom Pawk stuff. Is that correct?
Rob Lee:Please. Yes.
Tom Sanford:Okay. So that that was sort of my my second show, I guess. So around 2,001, I started making I keep my glasses keep on fogging up here. Sorry. I just keep on having to wipe them.
Tom Sanford:I started making, paintings of of, rappers. I've been kind of in interested in celebrity portraiture of different kinds for a little while before that, mainly because I you know, celebrity portraiture is kind of like the sort of basement of art. You know? Like, it's really like the chi like, the sort of, like, the most base and cheesy, area of art. And so to me, that's very it's very interesting, area to be in, mainly because I I think that, celebrities kind of lingua franca of American culture.
Tom Sanford:Like, people associate can all, identify with the celebrities because we all know who they are, and you need a common language to be able to communicate. So, you know, I may have a very different experience than someone who grew up in, like, Compton, California or whatever, but we both understand who Tupac Shakur is. You know what I mean? Like, and and so we can have a conversation based on that. And there's a lot of conversations that have to be have to be had in this country because there's a lot of terrible things, and we have a lot of history that's gone on in this country we were all very aware of.
Tom Sanford:Now so where where I'm going here? So, after around 2,001, I started making kind of like icon paintings, of, like, gangster rappers. And at the time, I was thinking about these things as being, like, sort of a white boy identity art. Like, like, I you know, I grew up in an affluent, essentially white suburb of Westchester County, and, there you know, in my high school, there were no black kids. Like, I I knew nothing about, the where I perceived, American culture was not being made in Bronx till New York.
Tom Sanford:It was being made in the Bronx. You know? K. And I I was aware of that. I I knew that that, that the stuff that I was interested in was coming from this part of the country that I I had nothing to do with, but I was learning about it all from music television.
Tom Sanford:And so I was thinking about this. And so the the most obvious read of these paintings, I, you know, I might take, you know, Biggie or Tupac or whatever, and I and sort of, fit them into, like, a a painting of Christ, like a like a like a Byzantine icon painting. And I would use, sort of hand hand gestures that were like gang signs or something like like they were, this this the hands, signals or whatever that that the saints and icon paintings would be making because these things would communicate different things to people who understood the the language of Byzantine icon painting. Or, you know, the different colors would mean different things, like different pigments were more valuable or less valuable, and so they were associated with with different, saints or biblical characters. Anyway, the point was I had this whole, rationale about about painting these guys who, to me, were, characters that I venerated.
Tom Sanford:But on the other but while I venerated and I loved hip hop music, I also knew I wasn't really meant to be painting them. Like, I I there was something a little bit taboo about me, you know, being sort of like a cultural carpetbagger and and and and, you know, like, kind of it was it was unconscientious, I'll say. But that that to me, that was the issue in the painting. Like, I've I've always been attracted to work that is a little bit transgressive. I think one of the one of the functions that art can have in the culture is to be transgressive and to to push boundaries and ask questions through doing things that people find uncomfortable.
Tom Sanford:And so this seemed like an interesting place for me to be, especially as, like, a young guy. You know, you wanna, like, kind of draw attention to yourself by doing things you shouldn't do. Anyway, so I I did this for a little while, and the the paintings got a little bit more, elaborate. After a while, I was making, like, these Renaissance paintings. I I I mentioned earlier, like a like a van der Weyden painting where I might it might be the, the scene where Tupac was killed in in Las Vegas back in, 1996.
Tom Sanford:And so, like, I had him over the, black BMW or whatever car it was that he was shot in. And, like, you know, Suge Knight is there and Afeni Shakur is in the painting, like, as if she's, the Virgin Mary. And I think I had, like, DJ Quik holding Tupac and, like, Snoop Dogg was there and Orlando Anderson, you know, the guy who got in a fight with the, MGM Grand before he got shot, etcetera, etcetera. And so, like, making this whole, or illustrating this whole mythology that was laid out in diff in all the different, theories and, you know, kind of pop culture, you know, interpretations of Tupac's death. And so, I was making paintings like that, and they, you know, they they started to get me a little bit of attention, but not not not much.
Tom Sanford:But then I decided, like, I should do something a little bit more transgressive or radical to kind of, really commit to the work. And so I decided I would do a project where I would try to transform myself into Tupac Shakur, Shakur, and it would kinda culminate in the 7 year anniversary of his death. You know, if you don't know anything about, like, all of the conspiracy and numerology around Tupac's death that's sort of out laid out in the Machiavelli album, then you you might, you you you know that 7 years was, like, an important time. He was meant to come back from the dead or whatever. And so I, did all these sort of superficial things to change myself into Tupac.
Tom Sanford:Like, at the time, I I probably weighed, you know, a 190 pounds, so I decided I would try to lose some weight to get down to the weight that he had had when he died according to his driver's license. If memory serves, it was about a £153. Now I was a a a side note. Growing up, I was a high school wrestler. And I when when I'm asked about, like, experiences that, like, taught me the most of being an artist, I always say high school wrestling because I I went into high school wrestling thinking that it would be like being in the WWF or whatever.
Tom Sanford:And, in fact, it was nothing like that. I was not jumping off the top rope and doing suplexes. I was, like, sweating in a gym, getting my ass kicked by, like, other kids, and I learned a lot about pain and humiliation and and hard work. And, like, that's a lot of what art's all about. You know, it's not so glamorous in the trenches, You know?
Tom Sanford:But anyway, side note, I so I learned how to lose weight quickly doing high school wrestling. And so over the course of, I guess, 2 or 3 months, I lost some weight. I got some, like, sort of superficial modifications done to myself, like I a nose ring, and I already had the earrings, if I remember correctly, from, like, high school. It was, like, back in the nineties, like, everyone got earrings, you know. I I would do little things every day like, you know, smoke some weed, drink some Hennessy to kind of commune with Tupac.
Tom Sanford:I had a blog where I would write about being being Tupac or, like, my reflections on his place in culture. And then I eventually got, you know, some I got to tap that.
Rob Lee:There we go. Wow. Yeah.
Tom Sanford:There's Tupac. I didn't get all the rest of the tattoos. So I got I I had them all in magic marker on me. I shaved my head. But, I so my my blog started to get a little bit of attention, and I and back then, the Internet was a much smaller place than it is now.
Tom Sanford:And so if you were to Google me back then, I came up pretty early in Tupac, search results. And so ended up being you know, getting a little bit of attention to the media and and and all sorts of cool stuff happened. But I was very uncomfortable because, like, I, you know, I knew that what I was doing was something like I shouldn't be doing. I you know, I I obviously wasn't in blackface, but it was about as close as I could get to being in blackface. And, you know, and that was kind of the point of the project.
Tom Sanford:Like like, through my, attempt to become more like this guy who I whose music I loved and I thought was such an important cultural figure, I was starting to look more and more like a Neo Nazi. And so that to me was poignant. And so at the end of the day, I I got some photographs taken by this wonderful photographer, this guy, Prescott McDonald, who found me over the Internet, And he had done some work, photographing other rappers. And so he, you know, volunteered to, take photographs of me. And when I sold the photographs, I gave him half the money.
Tom Sanford:But but I say, I I didn't wanna make sure Prescott got paid because he made the project. But, anyway, so I I did an exhibition that kinda was the culmination of the project where I exhibited some of my my paintings of rappers. And, I I actually appeared in person and sort of dressed up as Tom Pawk at this opening. That was the only time I was, like, ever really Tom Pock not on the Internet. Everything else was basically just me being him on the Internet.
Rob Lee:Yeah.
Tom Sanford:But, I I I I was at this this, opening of this gallery this at this gallery, 31 Grand in Williamsburg, Brooklyn. It's back in g 2003, I guess it was. And I remember the gallery, it the the the it got they got a lot of attention for this because, the the New York Post, I think it was, put an article in the in the newspaper the day or so before the the show, with, pictures of the paintings and and talking about the the project. And so they were getting phone calls from people who, like, were never been to an art gallery before, like, hey. Can we come and see the Tupac paintings?
Tom Sanford:Like, what does it cost? It's free. It's an art gallery. Just come on down. But also, they were getting, like, phone call, like, kind of death threats on me.
Tom Sanford:You know? Like, ones that were in jest, I I I believe. It was I I was very nervous about it, so I got, like, really drunkly opening and basically sat in the corner, you know, for the entire thing. But, yeah, that that was what you're asking about. And now you can, you can, you can give me your 2¢ about this.
Rob Lee:No. That is that is I'm looking at the picture right now. So I'm, like, looking at the picture and looking at you. What are what are the ones that's, like, online currently? And I was like, that's that's very close.
Tom Sanford:Yeah. I looked like a character from American History x. You know?
Rob Lee:No. I was thinking the same thing. I wasn't gonna say it, but it's exactly the same thing. No. It's no.
Rob Lee:That's I think sort of being provocative, being, transgressive, that's that's stuff that I've always been interested in and, you know, having sort of the explanation and the the discourse and the conversation around it. I think, you know, that's something that is almost gone. We we aren't able to do that as much these days. It's just kinda like, well, this is what this person's intent was. It's like, no, let let them share their peace, and then from there, you know, be able to kind of sort and parse through.
Rob Lee:Okay, what is the meaning? Is is this person kinda kinda goofy? Is this person bugged out? Or was this an attempt to say something artistically and have sort of their their 2¢ towards it. Because, you know, as you you touched on, like, earlier, it's sort of everyone's.
Rob Lee:You know, the the sort of, like, art, macroly, is sort of for everyone, you know, what what came before. So Yeah.
Tom Sanford:Well and, you know, the the what was key to this project was that and and why why I couldn't do it today for the reasons you're you're talking about, Like, I I I would be, you know, I would get dragged in in all sorts of ways over the Internet these days for it. But I tried to present it in a in a way that it didn't immediately make itself clear this is an art project. You know, the I think part of the point was that I was doing something that looked really, reprehensible. But but as as you looked into it more or if you emailed me or interacted with me, I would explain this was about my own ambivalence about the way that, you know, black masculinity was being sold to me as a white consumer of it and, like, how awful and problematic this was, and I'm aware of that. But on the other hand, I love the music, and I think the music is is incredibly important culturally.
Tom Sanford:Like you know, it it it's sort of the, successor to punk rock. It's about nihilism. It's about social issues. You know, these guys making the music aren't actually the gangsters that they, purport to be, but Tupac paid for his, the authenticity which he tried to achieve with his life, you know, which is obviously tragic and so sad because he was clearly an important, and incredible artist. And he sort of took it too far and he died, you know, in a in a horrific way.
Tom Sanford:So it it was important to me that I was the asshole in the project. You know, it was about my my sins or or the the kind of the sins of the that I represent as an American consumer, you know, and and I'm willing to take responsibility for. You know, you you can you can say the project is racist, and it may wear very well be. But racism is an important part of this country, and we have to reckon with it if we're gonna move forward. You know?
Tom Sanford:And I know I I, for 1, wanna, acknowledge my complicity, you know, if you know what I mean. Yeah.
Rob Lee:No. That's that's a that's a really good point. And, you know, we we have these things that are, you know, taboo. I I recently had a conversation, and we weren't talking race per se. We were talking about sort of death.
Rob Lee:Right? We, you know, had this idea of all of these things that are right in front of us. So we know what they look like. We know when we see them, but we don't talk about them. We talk about them in a very specific way, and then there's sort of a cut off point.
Rob Lee:And for me, I wanna understand the thing fully before I just say, oh, okay. No. No. Yeah. This person is racist POS or, you know, death.
Rob Lee:Moving on to something else about life. It's like I'd rather have a better understanding of it to really have a concentrated, really direct, and efficient version of why I don't mess with this or why, you know, this this is part of the conversation. It doesn't I I think a lot of times we want a specific response. We want agreement versus something that is is gonna make us think or even feel. I think that's something we become more and more sort of sort of numb to, these days.
Rob Lee:I know recently, there was this, this one artist, I think it was the designer, and he got into this spot where he was doing, I think, he did some work, and it had, like, a sort of racial tone to it. And, you know, before he could able was able to really speak on what his meaning and what his thinking was, and then the work that he was putting out, in these prints that look like watermelon, you know, that old trope. And it's just like, oh, this is racist, and I was like, no, let's let's hear the full thing. Let's let's better understand this. No.
Rob Lee:This is racist. This is trash. Get rid of it. And I think that's selling people short. I think people are smarter than that to actually be able to to have the conversation, to understand, like, is this is this satire?
Rob Lee:Because I think it was like a designer brand. It was like a big brand. Or is this one of those things where, you know, I I I like white people but also white people a little sneaky sometimes and they they kinda work in one of these sneak disses. Is it one of those as well? And that's that's sort of the thing.
Rob Lee:But I think if we don't allow for that conversation to really understand it, we can't delineate between what's what. It's like sort of Yeah.
Tom Sanford:That that I feel is the shame of, sort of a nature cancel culture is that you you really you can't talk about race without getting awkward. And something like my little art project here, the nice thing about it is it allows you and me and from the looks of things, you're probably an African American man. You know? It allows us to talk about race, in a relatively direct way, and it makes a little bit more comfortable because we can talk about this stupid project that I did. But we these are conversations we kinda need to have, and we understand we have to come to.
Tom Sanford:You know? And, yeah. Like, it's but it's it's it's tricky to talk about. You know? It's it's a conversation, you know, you and I, even if we were old friends who were having, you know, beers at a bar, it'd be hard for us to talk about, but it perhaps this gives us a way.
Tom Sanford:And and this is not the certainly the only function of art, but it's one thing that art can do. You know? Art can do lots of different things, but it can be an arena for us to talk about uncomfortable stuff. And, you know, and the re I I well, I I like the this is one of the projects that while I I'm I always sort of dread talking about it, but it's one of the things I've done that I'm more proud of because I think that there's a real ambiguity and ambivalence in the work. It's I don't think it's didactic in any way.
Tom Sanford:You know? It's not it it's it's not trying to be woke or anything like that. It's I'm trying to be express, like, a real true position. Like, you know what? I I truly believe that, the fact that, American culture is pretty much predominantly invented by African American people for the last, well, 400 years, but certainly the last 100 years, is is one of the ways that we can we can move forward and hopefully improve situations.
Tom Sanford:Because it's really hard to be, you know, racist when you realize you love Michael Jackson or Tupac or Barack Obama. You know? Like, you you you it's that's the beginning of understanding. You know? And, and I think that a lot of people like me from the place I came from, you know, learned initial our initial things through popular culture, you know.
Tom Sanford:I mean, it's important stuff.
Rob Lee:Absolutely. Absolutely. And, you know, being in that that sort of like, I think you and my my partner in the same sort of sort of age group or what have you and hearing, you know, how, like, part of, like, I must say the MTV or any of that different stuff, like the sort of the pop culture component, that's sort of one of those those exports. And, you know, my my partner's black, so she was like, I'm in it. But in in this sort of way of, like, how is this being exported?
Rob Lee:And it's like, well, this is what's being sent to me. This is what I'm seeing, this version of it. And it's just like, how are how are the real black people? How how are these real communities? And, and and and being once they're exposed to it, like, you you mentioned, like, WWE earlier, or WWF at the time, and and I thought of this this wrestler, who's currently wrestling, who was on, The Real World, and, you know, Mike Mizan and The Miz or what have you.
Rob Lee:And I remember him being on there and he was like, Yeah, you know, from this part of Ohio, never been around black people. Do I was like 24 And just sort of, like, he was having conflicts because he wasn't around anyone. And I was just, like, wonder what kind of kind of content you're in. But then seeing sort of that exposure and that sort of understanding and that sort of development over now the last 20 or so odd years, it's just like, oh, okay. You just weren't around to around it.
Rob Lee:You weren't exposed to it. The the stuff that you were getting in your your feed, if you will, probably wasn't indicative of culture or it was indicative of sort of the more negative, more hyper, more, maybe violent or some of the unsavory parts of it. You don't know what to go with from that. You know?
Tom Sanford:Mhmm. Yeah.
Rob Lee:Alright.
Tom Sanford:So Moving on.
Rob Lee:I mean, where's the beers? But so so I got I got 2 more real questions. And I I wanna hear a little bit about, like, imperfections. Is that is that is that see folks, you know, works now ready to show into us absolutely perfect. I remember back in the day, you know, you you remember in Goodfellas.
Rob Lee:Right? When they talk about shaving the freaking, like, garlic or what have you.
Tom Sanford:Oh, yeah. I got a great system. Or was it like, Paul had a great system? He would shake like a
Rob Lee:So that that used to be me editing these podcasts. It's like, alright. I gotta trim this pause out to the the nth degree. I gotta get it razor thin. So Mhmm.
Rob Lee:You know, and it kinda takes away from what the thing is. It's a conversation. It's not just words perfectly strung together. It's actually a conversation. So, ums and coughs and things of that nature, you try to dampen it to refine it, but ultimately, the imperfections are a part of it.
Rob Lee:How do you how do you view imperfections as it relates to to your work?
Tom Sanford:Well, my work is, very imperfect. You know, like, when you're making a painting, the the drawing is sort of the, the armature that that everything hangs off. And if you don't draw things correctly, you can't paint your way out of that. Like, if if you if you wanna, you know, the and there's there's different ways that people, can kind of, used to get around imperfections in their own drawing ability. Like, you know, these days there's a lot you know, it's very easy to project something or, you know, or use, you know, digital means to to, you know, make up for your, your lack of drawing skill.
Tom Sanford:But I've well, for a long time, I I've kind of realized that the the way that I draw things and and the where I mess up are they're kind of my style, you know. Like, I I like it when the the work is a little bit wonky and a little bit funky, you know, because I'm not trying to compete with a photograph. You know, you you if you're gonna make paintings of people, and they're meant to be specific people, you you need to communicate who they are, or the painting isn't particularly effective. Like, this painting behind me is and you, you've probably seen the painting before, and that's why you knew it was Don Mattingly. But it had to look enough like well, it has to look enough like Don Mattingly that it would be recognizable.
Tom Sanford:But if it was like a photo realistic reproduction of Don Mattingly, it wouldn't interest me particularly because, you know, I I just get the photograph. But, so I kind of embrace my sort of mediocre drawing and and and use it as as my style. I I sometimes I think I should take a class in caricaturing, because, like, I I'm always amazed by people who can in with with, very, you know, efficient amounts of line and drawing can get the essence of a person's character, you know, through overemphasizing a particular feature, like be it the jaw or the nose or whatever the case may be. I've never been able to do that, consistently. Sometimes I kinda get it, and sometimes I don't.
Tom Sanford:But I have to kind of, work things far enough so they they are, recognizable as the the person I'm trying to, make you know, communicate that who they are in the painting. For me, this painting doesn't work if it if it isn't Don Mattingly or if I if I make a painting of, I don't know, like ice spice or something. I got a painting over there of ice spice. It has to look like her, but it also has to look a little a a little, warped or distorted or wouldn't wouldn't it wouldn't interest me particularly. Like, this is why I, am interested in or identify with, particularly German Expressionists, you know, because I guess, that they felt that their, you know, it's gonna be technical insufficiencies, communicated something about the inner life or of themselves or their or their, their subject matter, and then they could, show angst through, kind of, wonky drawing or angular lines or something like that.
Tom Sanford:And I and I like that idea because it it works with what I'm doing. So, yeah, like, I I I feel like mistakes are style and, I also I I like to make a few big mistakes as opposed to, like, a lot of little ones, you know. It's my my life is a few big mistakes.
Rob Lee:That that's that's great. It's it's funny because, as I look at the Donnie Baseball joint, I'm like, is this Nick that long? That's I start thinking of the actual picture now. No.
Tom Sanford:I I tried to you know what I tried to do? I tried to get, like, the feeling of the action of his swing in his body, like, you know, which was that was what I was I was trying to do there. And so, I really wanted to get him, you know, like, sort of coming over the ball. He's about to really take a big cut on that ball. And, also, the fact that, you know, he's a he's a compelling New York sports star to me and that he didn't ever win a championship.
Tom Sanford:And so he's kinda like an Aeneas kinda character. You know? He's, like, sort of battling for Rome, but he's not particularly successful, you know. And I I I find that, that's why I love Patrick Ewing too. You know, the the the the the sports heroes who don't quite succeed, are the ones that I identify with, you know, because, most of us don't quite succeed in the end.
Rob Lee:I mean, you're you're you're preaching to the choir, brother. Alright. So so here's sort of the last real question, and I got a few rapid fire questions I've been feverishly updating as we've been talking. So this one I'm I'm I'm very curious about, especially, like like now where, you know, AI is a thing. You know, we have sort of social media and big business.
Rob Lee:I've recently dove back into the, death of the artist book, and, you know, as I think about books, anyone can write a book. Anyone can self publish or have you. Anyone can make art. You know, we've seen with AI, you can now sound like rappers. You can use their specific voices, and it makes it harder and harder to distinguish the good and interesting work from the mid and stuff that just feels like a commodity.
Rob Lee:Do do you think we value creativity, like, more or less, or what what are your thoughts on in in that climate?
Tom Sanford:Oh, gee. The yeah. This you say of your question, this is the one that that I I really wasn't sure how I was gonna answer this. I we we we certainly say that we value creativity. Like, every third person you meet, it would is a self described, creative.
Tom Sanford:And creative is not a term that I I particularly like. Like, I remember when I was in in college, I my I think my dad or some relative of mine, I guess, is he wanna be an artist? I was like, no. I don't wanna be an artist. I wanna be a painter.
Tom Sanford:Like, I wanna, like, I wanna do this thing. I got I I to me, like, being an artist was like a lifestyle, and being a painter was like actually doing the work, if you know what I mean. And to me and and if if you or anyone else self identifies as creative, like, this this is not about you. It's about my own hang ups. Sure.
Tom Sanford:But I don't like the term creative for the same reason. It sounds to me like it's like a lifestyle thing. And and, you know, being turned on to your your blog was I mean, your blog. Your your podcast was wonderful for me because, I I like what you're doing a lot because, like, you're you're making, like, this, this wonderful record of many different people who are doing important and interesting stuff. It may may not, be the stuff that's that's, valued in every case by our culture, but but it's all people who are kind of putting in the good fight.
Tom Sanford:And, like, I I think that in recording yourself is really important because it gives, like, a broad picture of what is going on at the granular level, the the culture. Like, you know, like, art is not Jeff Koons or, you know, or Jean Michel Basquiat necessarily. That that that's like big big, mega culture at this point. Like, art is what's being made, by people who, will not be appreciated and and are are doing it for the the love of what they're doing, and and I think it's it's important to have a record of this. And the wonderful thing about digital media is we have the ability to archive all this stuff.
Tom Sanford:So but my my point my my point is, I'm gonna I'm gonna keep on going around in, like, a the tangent, but, like, I I listen to a lot of these art podcasts and and many of them are actually marketing tools for, like, coaching programs for people who wanna get, like, a bunches of, benefactors to to, support their practice by giving them, you know, daily affirmations or something. And, you know, however you make your rent, you know, more power to you, but but that's not very interesting to me. Like, I I think that if you're gonna do this, you don't need, to have, like, a group of people cheering you on. Like, people like, I I think yourself and I are gonna do this with or without an audience. And, you know, you have an audience because you do a a good job of it, and so people come to you.
Tom Sanford:But I think that even if you didn't, you probably would still be doing this. And I I and the same same for me. Like, you know, I've been incredibly fortunate in that I've been able to, for the last 20 years or so, make this into my career and and, not have to do anything else but, fuck around in my studio all day. But, that's not what you know, but no one gets into this for that reason. You know?
Tom Sanford:Like, you're never gonna get rich. Well, I guess it's technically possible, but incredibly improbable doing this stuff. You you do it because you need to do it. And this may not be, I'm I'm sort of going off way away well away from your question right now. So do we valuable creativity?
Tom Sanford:I I think that business values creativity because it realizes it gets all its good ideas from create creativity. We don't really often put our money where our mouth is as as far as value and create creativity because, you know, we value what we pay for. But I I think that there is creativity in in all aspects of culture, business, fashion, things like that. I think it's a great time to be someone who's interested in doing this because things like, you know, social media and the arts give, us access to people that would have been very hard to get access to be before them. You know, be in in fine art, for instance, be before the, invention of Instagram, you know, if you wanted people to see your work, you basically had to have an art show at a prestigious art gallery and hope that someone wrote a writes a review about your work.
Tom Sanford:And there's, like, about 5 people in the world writing art reviews. And then, like, maybe you get into a magazine and a bunch of people see your work, but the the the probability of that happening is incredibly slim. Now, you know, there there's some there's other ways to to approach this. You know, you you can you can certainly still sell your art through art galleries, art fairs, art auctions, things like that, but there's other ways. There's there's there's many more people, I think, making a living off off selling work over the Internet, through commissions at lower price points, frankly, but to people around the world because a lot of people value art and, and will pay, you know, 100 or maybe a few $1,000 for a painting, but they they these these are not the kind of, transactions that make sense to happen in art galleries because of the overhead of an art business.
Tom Sanford:And so, you know, now I've kinda forgotten the question, but what I well, I I I I think that the the the, technology is is kinda is can be good for art. Yeah.
Rob Lee:No. I I think I think you you you you you're good. I think you're good in sort of, like, covering sort of your your thoughts in that. I think you've you've touched on a lot of pieces, a lot of pieces that I I I share. I I share your your sentiments on, and, yeah, I think, you know, it's definitely something that's that's covered in the sort of death of the artist like like both.
Rob Lee:I read
Tom Sanford:that book. Or actually, when I say re read, I mean, I I listened to a podcast because I and I I mean, on the audiobook because that's how I read everything by listening
Rob Lee:to it.
Tom Sanford:It's pretty good. I I, yeah, I actually found it sort of, it it was a it was a year or so ago, but I found it kind of encouraging. Although, I don't think that was the point of the book.
Rob Lee:Yeah. And and and sort of like you know, I think it's a a I think it's a 2020 release, and I just remember certain things that they were talking out talking about and then seeing them happen live and in color, like the notion of folks that are leaving, quote unquote, the centers where where your work is discovered, and then they're pulling up to places like Baltimore, and I'm like, I'm in Baltimore, and kind of some of the stuff that I'm seeing now in the cycle of like this, this sort of 4 years or, you know, the book was released in 2020, but I'm sure maybe written probably prior to that, And I'm like, oh, okay. Cool. This this makes sense. This this is this is kinda here.
Tom Sanford:You're you're seeing that on the ground in Baltimore. Like, there's a bigger art scene than there was 15 years ago when you started the podcast?
Rob Lee:So I I started podcasting 15, but this has only been 5 years. This podcast is only 5 years old. And, yeah, I think the the scene has shifted a little bit. I don't I I think it's always been a lot of artists, always been a lot of creative folks who may not use use the term, but I for lack of a better term, they're they they do an artistic thing. They they pursue art.
Rob Lee:And, you know, it's it's that thing where some of the sort of uglier, gatekeepery weird things that happen in these sort of larger scenes are starting to creep down here and have a bigger, place, and that's been been very weird. And this notion of folks leaving because of the the resources not being here, and you're already priced out of going to a New York, can't afford it. You're priced out of going to a Philadelphia, the quote unquote what these hubs used to be to get discovered and to to blow up, And it's like the resources aren't necessarily down here in a big bad way, but the sentiment is down here that you can't make it, that is flooded and is crowded. So that's what I've been seeing in the conversations that we hear.
Tom Sanford:Feels because, yeah, art doesn't feel super crowded here in a way that it used to. But the thing is, like, I'm old now. Yeah. Like, I used to know tons and tons of artists. Like, you know, when I first got out of school, I I well, not immediately, but after maybe a year, I moved to a a loft in Bushwick, Brooklyn.
Tom Sanford:And this is back when Bushwick was kind of a hairy place. Like, it was, like, it was all stray dogs and, like, you know, insurance fraud on my block. Like, there's another burned out car every every day outside of the building that I had a a loft in with a couple friends. Like but, then every one of my building was an artist of some sort or or another. But the thing is there's there's a lot and now I don't know too many artists, and I they don't really, like, hang out with artists.
Tom Sanford:I kinda hang out with the, the parents of my children's friends and stuff like that. But that may just because, like, may because just your life changes as you get older. You know? And, of course, there's a lot of attrition in art. And, yeah.
Tom Sanford:And just, so my major career goal is just to keep on doing this until I'm 80 if I if I last that long and then then, you know, drop the paintbrush and jump in my grave.
Rob Lee:That's that's that's sort of sort of one of the things I I started thinking of, like, what is, you know, sort of the phase because, you know, as I was touching on earlier about and I and I think it's something about the uniqueness, as you you were touching on, of, you know, I would still do this because I'm curious. You would still do what you're doing because it interests you, and following your interest has been this sort of sentiment that I've gotten in there, asking these questions and using your art as a way to present these questions. And, you know, in in teaching, in this last, like, year, I've had in in teaching, in this last, like, year, I've had to kinda re explore certain things and, you know, really address some of the things that have bothered me, specifically when it comes to, like like, podcasting, like, you know, I've talked to, quote, unquote, fine artists, like white dudes telling me that basically I ain't shit, you know, when I'm getting grand. So I was like, I could wring your neck right I'm 64. I'm a giant guy, by the way.
Rob Lee:And I was like, I'm offended by this, but having to see where I'm at and almost doing the performance thing for a group of, you know, well meaning folks that don't necessarily look like me, and it's funny, and it feels all weird.
Tom Sanford:You're being very diplomatic.
Rob Lee:Yeah. Yeah. And being very, you you know, in in in front for presentation or in these other instances, working, you know, at an art school, you know, teaching there and teaching sort of this as a medium or what have you, which, you know, you've you're aware of your worldly dude or what have you, like, you can do theater through this, you voice acting, so on. And for someone too short sighted and say podcasting is not any form of anything, it's just, you know, bullshit, for for lack of a better term. It's it's a weird thing to say because and it's very short sighted.
Rob Lee:So in speaking with my students and kinda, you know, preaching from that position, and I'm like, look, just get on Instagram and all of you got it, and just look at how similar all of these things are. Does anyone feel like they have a unique voice? Do they feel like they're really into the thing that they're so passionate about? It all looks the same, it's all presented the same. I don't think if this doesn't blow up, if they're not 10x in their business, bro, then they're not gonna continue doing it.
Rob Lee:Whereas someone like me, someone like you, we're gonna continue doing because there's something else that drives. There's something else in the engine. Yeah. And that's the thing that I brought to kick across.
Tom Sanford:I think is similar in many ways to painting in that it's a it's a way that you can produce culture at a really at a very affordable, price point. You know what I mean? Like, it's something that a single individual can do, and you can reach a lot of people. And so it's a very effective medium for, you know, like a a a a single operator in in the culture. And the wonderful thing about a vocal medium, and it's been said a lot before, but, like like, rate like, because podcasting is is kind of functions like radio, like National Public Radio or whatever, in that you can you can really get a relationship with with a voice in a way that you can't have a relationship with television.
Tom Sanford:It's much more intimate hearing someone talk to you, and it it's very personal. And that's why I think, you know, I don't know any artist who doesn't listen to a ton of podcasts because it it it's it's just it's it's a way to stop the voice in your head. You can you can have Rob's voice in there, which is it's it's a lot, more productive to listen to you than to listen to this asshole.
Rob Lee:As a as a great mic drop, I'll take the kudos, the passive kudos there. And, you know, because we're coming up on it, I wanna definitely dive into I got 4 rapid fire questions for you. I think we've beaten the dead horse. We rode the dead horse, and then we've beaten it. That's what we've done.
Rob Lee:We we we've done it well, though, to the glue factory. So here's the first one. Where are you more likely to find inspiration? Cafe? Bar?
Rob Lee:What what what is the location that you're most likely to get, like, an idea that just falls right there?
Tom Sanford:New York City, man. Like, the the reason I haven't left this place, and it's a pain in the neck living in New York. You know, it's expensive, and everything's more difficult here than it needs to be. But this place is teeming with life. Like, you cannot walk down the street without seeing some bizarre thing going like like a couple having a fight in public or, you know, or, you know, like some guy walks onto the subway and produces a piece of human feces out of a paper bag or something.
Tom Sanford:There are it's it's a cliche, but there are many more than 8,000,000 stories in this city. And it's I I find it exhausting sometimes, but when I'm not here, I crave the energy that this place is just pulsing with. And so that's why I'll live here my entire life even though I have a love hate relationship with it. You know? To New York.
Rob Lee:That's that's wonderful. I I will say, you know, what I was touching on before we got started, when I was up there last, like, I was in this this sort of, man, he'll love me, man, sort of vibe and came up here, and while I came up there and encountered a few of my friends that were up there who just were really genuinely happy to see me. 1 of my friends came work was in there for a show, was in the country for a show, came from Denmark. I was like, oh my god, Rob. How are you?
Rob Lee:I was like, hey. This is this is amazing. And
Tom Sanford:So it's like a small town here. Because you have to walk around Yep. You rub up against, like, a 100000 people every time you get on the subway. And so you it's like I can't take a, you know, take a trip downtown without running to one person I know at this point. You know?
Tom Sanford:Because I've lived here for 30 years. You know what I mean? And and it's not like I know that many people, but it just it's it's like a it's like a small town, but it's massive, you know?
Rob Lee:100%. Next question I got for you. What's your go to comfort food? Like, is there a food that you're like, this is this is amazing. Like
Tom Sanford:My it's beer. That's my go to comfort food.
Rob Lee:That's right.
Tom Sanford:I'll be going to it right after I get off the mic with you.
Rob Lee:What kind of beer do you like? And don't say IPA. If you say IPA, I think this whole interview is done.
Tom Sanford:Well, then I won't say it. I'm really not that discriminating. You know? Like, I have a a diff I can see, the value in in all types of of beer. Like, I I like macro brews, and I like micro brews.
Tom Sanford:Like, I you know, if you're gonna go to a baseball game and have 6 or 7 of them, you probably don't wanna be drinking IPAs. You wanna be drinking, Miller Lite's. You know what I mean?
Rob Lee:This is true. This is true. I, I'm a snob when it comes to beer. I like, like, the top two Japanese beers. That's literally my beers of choice.
Tom Sanford:Are those are those, Sapporo and Asahi? What are they?
Rob Lee:Yes. Absolutely. Yeah. And on occasion, I haven't had in a while. On occasion, I have the Kirin Ichiban, and it's like, that's where I'm at.
Rob Lee:But, you know, I'll look at someone's like, if you have a yingling, I'll have that, I suppose.
Tom Sanford:Yingling's one of the worst beers there is in my opinion. There's few beers that I I will try to avoid, and and Yingling's one of them. No shade on on, Pennsylvania. But
Rob Lee:And this is brought to you by our sponsor, Yenglings. You did want it. So, do you have a do you have a favorite movie?
Tom Sanford:You know, I tend to like movies that are about, like, sort of depressed, middle aged guys. You know? Like, I liked that movie. Any movie like Paul Giamatti, for instance, I'm gonna like that. Like, you know, I I I'm not sure favorite movie, but, like, I really love that movie that he put out recently about the guy, the boarding school teacher.
Tom Sanford:You know what I'm talking about? Yes. I forget what it's called. It it yeah. I don't know if I have a a favorite movie, but, like, there was a period a couple years ago I kept on watching Mississippi grind all over over and over again.
Tom Sanford:You know?
Rob Lee:You're talking about the holdovers, by the way?
Tom Sanford:Oh, the holdovers. Yeah. The holdovers. Yeah. Exactly.
Tom Sanford:But, yeah, that's, like, kinda my genre. Like, I I'm not, like, much of an action movie guy or, like, a Marvel movie guy. Like, I I kinda like movies about, you know, just, like, sad sex.
Rob Lee:I mean, I I mean, I'm a big fat liar head. You know, I love Gia Motti.
Tom Sanford:No. Ridiculous.
Rob Lee:Alright. So so here's the here's the last one I got for you. So excluding yourself, you know, from this, you know, who who name someone who's low key, like, an unappreciated New York icon. Mhmm. That that's how I threw you in there, by the way.
Tom Sanford:Undepreciated New there are so many. Like, that's the great thing about this place. Like, you you so to answer if you know, you're down in Baltimore. Sorry. Yeah.
Tom Sanford:You're down in Baltimore. So you don't you know, this this this he's not the answer, but, you know this have you heard this guy New York Nico?
Rob Lee:No.
Tom Sanford:So New York Nico is this fascinating and interesting guy. He's become, like, massive on Instagram and TikTok, etcetera. But he's a he's a filmmaker who goes around New York, and he, like, kinda gets, sort of idiosyncratic New Yorkers on the mic or on on the on film, and he he, like, does these little reels of them. And, there's and so I I don't have a specific answer who, like like like I've discovered so many interesting people, and then you end up running into them through him, you know, like, but then but now because they're on his Instagram feed, if I say one of these people, it'll seem like an obvious easy answer, because, like, everyone in New York knows who they are now. Like, you know, like, everyone knows who George the Messiah is, who plays basketball down at the cage.
Rob Lee:You know,
Tom Sanford:that that guy, I I got to meet him, last summer, down there, and he yeah. He's just a fascinating guy. Like, I'd heard, you know, I'd heard that he was, like, in his seventies, and he's a cab driver. But I I got to meet him, and I also met some other basketball players down there who play with him. Like, he's not fucking 70.
Tom Sanford:He's, like, 40. He just has a big beard. It's great. But, you know, and and here's oh, oh, oh, oh, the the this guy, the the snowman, is I I think is is a really fascinating New Yorker. He's not really a New Yorker in that he's only lived here for, like, 10 or 12 years, which really makes him a New Yorker.
Tom Sanford:But but he's a graffiti writer who lives in my neighborhood who I managed to sort of through, Instagram connect with him. Like, I I followed him for ages and was kinda fascinated with his work. And then one day, I I you know, occasionally, I'd send a message or, like, tag him on something. One day, I was at an art opening in the Bronx Museum. It was, the Henry Chalfont show of his photographs of, graffiti on trains from, like, the late 19 seventies, I guess.
Tom Sanford:Anyway, so I'm there with my wife, and I'm you know, it's a crowded opening. It's also to hit New Yorkers there. And some dude comes up to me, and he's like, starts talking to me. He's like, this says tell I don't know what we're talking about. But after 5 minutes, I'm like, like, hey.
Tom Sanford:I don't remember who you are. And he's like, I'm the snowman. That was, like, the coolest thing ever. But, if you if you guys if you haven't ever looked him up on Instagram, look up snowman, s n o e m a n. It's the snowman.
Tom Sanford:But he does the most incredible and sort of generous work, in my opinion. Like, he goes to bodegas or different people who have, like, food carts on the street. And, like, at his own expense, he he offers to, sort of decorate their their stores or their their carts. He does, like, these incredible colorful beautiful murals just, like, all over their stores. And, and I I happen to live not so far from him.
Tom Sanford:That's why I I was sort of obsessed with him, and I I it worked out that he messed up my neighborhood. And it's just like a joy to to be around this stuff. You know, you're walking down Amsterdam Avenue, and suddenly you see a liquor store that he's turned into, like, a big fiery inferno or something or a bodega that looks like a beach in the Dominican Republic. And it's it's just, like and that that that's the thing about New York. It's sort of it New York, it it, attracts people who, like, really couldn't fit in anywhere else because they do such weird shit.
Tom Sanford:But here, there's so many weirdos that that we can all sort of coexist. And so there's just so many people doing big, wonderful, weird things here and it that's what makes it such a pleasure to live here, you know, and, you know, just, people like that. And so if you like, you can find a million of these guys and girls on Nico's, Instagram feed. So those are, the, like, the the more recent generation of cool New Yorkers. Of course, there's many storied historic New Yorkers from, like, Lou Reed or, you know, I don't know, like, Jim Jarmusch or, like, you know, all who are, like, other cool people you might run into on the street?
Tom Sanford:Like, you know, I don't know. Has a 1000000 interesting New Yorkers, but, Nico's a good place to find him.
Rob Lee:Oh, yeah. That's that's it. That's it. That's it. That's off the hot seat.
Rob Lee:That's off the rapid fire portion. So, you know, we got it, I think. I wanna do 2 things in these final moments. 1, I wanna thank you for coming on and spending some time with me. This has been
Tom Sanford:Let me thank you. I really just so appreciate what you're doing and that you took the time to interview me. I'm humbled and honored.
Rob Lee:This is this has been wonderful. And then these these final moments also, I wanna give you the space and opportunity to tell folks where to find you. You shout out other folks on their socials and their Instagram. Tell folks where to find you on Instagram, website, all of that good stuff. The floor out.
Tom Sanford:The website's really easy. It's thomasandford.com. And my Instagram, which is probably the best place to keep up with me like every other artist, it's Uberkundst, which is it's a a sort of a strange Instagram handle, but there's a short story behind it. Or not really story, but, it was my, AOL screen name from, like, 1991. And I what it so Uber, like like, over, like, high, like like, Ubermensch and Kunst Art, so like kind of high art.
Tom Sanford:And I just kept on using it. And so now, you know, in in this day and age, a lot of artists go by, like, yeah, sort of an artist name. And so, about, like, kind of half the people who, you know, maybe follow me or or interact with me anyway, they think of me as Uber Kunst, and the other half think of me as Tom Sanford. I should probably go with 1 or the other. But, yeah.
Tom Sanford:Like so on Instagram, Uber Kunst.
Rob Lee:There you have it, folks. I want to again thank the great Tom Sanford for coming on to the podcast and spending some time with me. And I'm Rob Lee saying that there's art, culture and community in and around your neck of the woods. You've just got to look for it.
