Welcome to the Truth in His Art. I am your host, Rob Lee. Thank you for tuning in to my conversations at the intersection of arts, culture, and community. Today, I am super excited. I am thrilled to welcome my next guest.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:With a career spanning creativity and innovation, my guest has made significant contributions as a pioneering producer, writer, director, and Internet entrepreneur. My guest is the visionary behind iconic projects like Night Flight and the author of Identify Yourself. Please welcome my next guest, Stuart S. Shapiro. Welcome to the podcast.
Stuart S. Shapiro:Thanks, And Thanks. Really, really. It's special for me to be part of such a an eclectic artistic, group. Frankly, you know, I'm on I'm I'm honored and flattered.
Stuart S. Shapiro:Well, not your normal path of creativity here, you know, and I kind of it's appealing to me, you know, in a strange way.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:Yeah. It's, it's it's one of those things where, when I came across you, we were we were chatting a little bit just to kinda set the stage. When I came across your work, specifically, it was like Night Flight or what have you, and, and we're definitely going to go into, like, the actual questions, but I wanna have this as, like, a precursor, I suppose. I my my my partner became aware of it. Right?
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:She was like, I'm not watching this back in the day. And I was like, what is this? And she was like, you need to watch this. You need to get this playlist. You need to do all of this.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:And she was like, this is eclectic. This is so New York. It's all of these different things she was describing it as, and I was just like, I need to check this out. So I started checking it out, and I was like, this is amazing. This is, like, everything that, like, I aspire to do with this, with this podcast, and just, you know, I just shot that shot one day.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:I think I was on, I think I was on LinkedIn, and, you know, I was kinda like, you know, you ever watch those movies when he had, like, the detective and he has the detective and he has the strings everywhere. It's like, these things are connected here and there. And I was just like, who's the dude that runs this? Who's dude that came? Who's the the thought leader behind this?
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:And then I saw your name pop up, I was like, I'm gonna reach out. I'm gonna shoot the shot. And literally, since I first became aware that you were on Linkedin, I, you know, like, we got night flight, like, queued up. I've just kind of been diving in. You know, it's literally been that and super excited, a little nervous, but super excited to be able to to chat with you on this podcast.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:So that's it's as simple as that for me and trying to, like, reach out to you. And, again, thank you for accepting the invitation.
Stuart S. Shapiro:Yeah. For sure. For sure. That's a what are you drinking there? It looks like some kind of wild purple blue
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:It's it's a, it's a protein drink, actually. I gotta I just keep the protein in all day.
Stuart S. Shapiro:Riley, shoot Right. Shoot. So you want me to introduce myself to start off with. Right? It's like the the where do I start.
Stuart S. Shapiro:Right?
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:Yeah. Because it's it's one of those things, right, where I do these interviews with people all the time, and a lot of times it's like artists, a lot of times it's like they have someone that's wrote it for them, and then they haven't updated it in multiple years, So it's like, I have the online thing, which is great, but I like to hear it from the guests themselves. Like, you know, could you, like, give us, you know, a bit of an introduction and, you know, some of the insights behind your work, please?
Stuart S. Shapiro:Okay. So, I go by Stuart s Shapiro. My full name is Stuart Samuel Shapiro. So I'm a triple s, which is, you know, got its own course of magic in it as well. And there was a handful of the stewards and so what I I use the s.
Stuart S. Shapiro:It's sort of like my signature or, my creative signature, so to speak. I was born and raised in North Adams, Massachusetts, which is in the Berkshires in the far western part of Massachusetts. Kind of famous and well known now as from from Mass MOCA, which was the converted factories from Sprague Electric in the old days, which one I grew up in. I grew up in a orthodox old fashioned orthodox Jewish family in North Adams. I grew up kosher.
Stuart S. Shapiro:My father was in the scrap business, scrap metals, scrap papers, my father, you know, was, Crane Paper It's kind of famous in, down in Dalton, Mass. They're the ones that make the paper for dollar bills. So, the paper for dollar bills has to be pure rags, and my dad was one of the main suppliers of rags. So I grew up, this the kind of this is a precursor to creativity. Alright?
Stuart S. Shapiro:So I grew up knowing that what other people threw away had value, and that I could pretty much always make a living by peddling junk in the street, and I could collect junk that was worth nothing to other people and sell it to my dad to make, you know, which I did every summer all the way through high school and half of the way through college until I got completely fucked up with drugs. And that or travel and everything else. That fucked up with drugs or whatever. So, I grew up in that area and the, you know, do you wanna say where did the story start, which is one of your questions, and I thought about it. And the story really started at 2 places in the Berkshires.
Stuart S. Shapiro:1 called Tanglewood, which is the summer residence for the Boston Symphony Orchestra, And another place called the Berkshire Music Barn, which was just down the street. So those are down in Lenox, Mass in the south of southern part of Berkshires. So when I was young, really young, and I don't know how how often, but, you know, maybe 10, 11, I was a a, an usher in the afternoons at Tanglewood. And in those days, Arthur Fiedler and Leonard Bernstein were part of the conductors and you know and I had to wear a you know white little thing and my brother would drop me off and I would, you know, hang out there. So that was part 1, and part 2 was down the road was the Berkshire Music Barn, And the Berkshire Music Barn was originally the summer residence in the fifties started by MJQ, the modern jazz quartet.
Stuart S. Shapiro:But they had a tent, and I was also an usher there as a kid. And that was, you know, Dave Brubeck, Ornette Coleman, all of the greats of the jazz. So I was born in 1948. I'm 75. I'm gonna be 76 this month coming up.
Stuart S. Shapiro:And you gotta think of, like, alright. Maybe I was born in 48. In the late fifties, maybe 58, I was starting to go there, you know, 10 years old. So this kinda story started there in a way, influence of music from classical to jazz, way before rock and roll. I mean, or, you know, Chuck Berry didn't really come to, you know, around till the eighties, and, you know, and the Birches and Tango.
Stuart S. Shapiro:But I was always fascinated by the show. And in particular, you know, I I I have an early age. I I wanted to be, you know, well, I guess what you would call in the old days an entrepreneur, which is, you know, sort of changed today because it's a tech thing now. But in the old days, you know, an entrepreneur was maybe, you know, someone that put on concerts or venues or, that kind of a producer. And I I it would that was sort of formational bloodline.
Stuart S. Shapiro:You know? So people always ask me, you know, what my bloodline is. My bloodline really is music. Because if you look at all the media and everything I've ever done, I always feel like the baseline is always been music no matter what kind of media that I've played in. And I kind of think I always wanted to be the person I grew up.
Stuart S. Shapiro:You know, I've gone through, stages of growing up and still still trying to figure out if I can get rid of some of my excessive, aspects, you know. I I wanna I I don't know if you know the expression moon in public. I don't know if that's something that, it's probably beyond your mooning in public is when you would take your pants down and and stick your ass out the window of a car going by. Right? Like, you know, as rude as you could get in the, like, fifties, sixties.
Stuart S. Shapiro:They're called mooning. It's funny. Okay. Right? Like, okay.
Stuart S. Shapiro:Show my age. I you know, so I always felt like as a creative producer, I like the moon in public. I like that in sort of come up with content that was embarrassing or that was always just naturally cutting edge and it had nothing to do with, you know, I think I wasn't like Arthur Fiedler and Leonard Bernstein over here. Although if you watch Bernstein, Bernstein, Bernstein, Leonard Bernstein, if you watch that documentary or the movie, you know, he was pretty, pretty rude in his own lifestyle. Anyway, so the beginning of, you know, the beginning of the beginning.
Stuart S. Shapiro:And, you know, and then I went on to, the actual career beginning started in 1970. So I graduated from college in 1970, which, Vietnam War, I got a good number. I didn't get drafted. I was in Europe the year before. I took my junior year, and and France a year before.
Stuart S. Shapiro:I was actually in Prague when the Russians invaded Prague in 1968. I was in in, France during the 68 demonstrations. And and and what happened was the Berkshire Music Barn had gone dormant and closed and was out out of business for many, many years. So my first venture was going to the got 2 guys to that bought that land, and they had bought it originally. They were gonna turn it, which they eventually did do into condominiums.
Stuart S. Shapiro:It was a beautiful property. And I went to them and said let me lease it, I want to start the bertrand music barn again. So there was a year after Woodstock, and I built an outdoor stage in, at at at there. And on, I think, you know, June, July July 1st or whatever. 2nd opened up with Arlo Guthrie, Paul Butterfield, Delaney and Bonnie, Ike and Tina Turner, BD King, and ended with James Taylor for the summer.
Stuart S. Shapiro:And, you know, along the way, I mean, there's, like, more stories than you can fit into this podcast alone and just the virtual music barn, which one of them is in my book. But, you know, my favorite story was, I continue to turn her. Now listen, I'm a kid. I'm 70 I'm 21 years old. I'm a, like, a white boy from North Adams.
Stuart S. Shapiro:Dig it. You know? And, so I had always a rain karma in everything I ever did, every every festival, every concert, whatever I ever did, it was rain. And everything always rained. And it turned out the Berkshire Music Barnet song where there was a lot of rain, and it it actually, as successful as it was, it was financially a disaster.
Stuart S. Shapiro:Until James Taylor and then that was good. But for me, it was like like and I was also over my head. So it was raining and I, Quintina Turner, played a short set. It couldn't have been more than 25 minutes. Right?
Stuart S. Shapiro:And we're backstage. And in those days, you know, it's like a $5,000 performance fee, maybe 35100 for them. You paid half upfront, then you had a cashier's check for when they finished the concert at the end. And my brother Eddie who's passed away this past year, 7 years old and I'm he was just in law school or whatever. That was a big deal.
Stuart S. Shapiro:Everybody always like the kid in the room. So he's back. So we're back in the green room or backwards ever. Eddie's holding this check and, like, trying to be fucking lawyer or whatever. He goes, we're not gonna pay you the second amount of this thing.
Stuart S. Shapiro:And it's sort of like if it happened yesterday, I remember. In a flash, Ike pulled a check out of Eddie's hand, pulled out a switchblade, and said, you white motherfucker. You think you're gonna get away without paying me? Like, no way. And, like, at that moment, I realized I was in the wrong business.
Stuart S. Shapiro:You know? It's like, I gotta I gotta find a business where there's, you know, Jews. And if it rains, I make money. And this concert thing is not gonna fit for me too good because I'm way I'm not a tough guy and, like, I'm not, like, I can't, you know, I can't, like because if you think about the old guys in the concert business, they, you know, they were they had a different set of balls. But, anyways, that's the kind of the beginning of the of of the of the the arc.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:Thank you. That is that's really it's it's it's really it's really funny. Thank you for sharing that. It it reminds me of that of one of those moments I I wanna get into doing sort of production. Like, podcasting is my my the lane I've been in.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:I've been doing this for about 15 years. And I was trying to get into doing, like, producing and and things of that nature. And I had a a situation where I was, I guess funding and, helping to produce an event. I was the person funding now. And it was a jazz event, like, locally, and it was just bringing a group up here.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:And when you mentioned paying up front, I was like, note to self, you know, sort of that piece and then the other piece in the back end. And I just remember the person that ran the venue, he got real real snippy with me, and I was like, this is not just from a personality standpoint, this is not how I go about things. And I'm 6 foot 4 and, like, £280, so I can be very intimidated if I need to be. But I don't like this. I don't like this setup, this performance, and here's money.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:Not for me.
Stuart S. Shapiro:Right. So
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:realizing sort of which version of it was more for me. What do I enjoy about it? And and I was like, I I guess the stage is interesting, but I suppose, like, I'd like to see something happen. I'd like to see sort of things that are, I guess, associated with my taste and my interest, you know, bring together community, bring together people. My eclectic taste bring together people.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:Yeah.
Stuart S. Shapiro:Okay. So that goes right to the heart of what your, show and what your life is all about, which is creativity. And how does, how does creativity, express itself self express itself if you're, you know what's your your arc, your career personal arc in life. And, you know, you sort of touched upon it. The the obvious thing here is you you have to find the center of who you are and and enjoy it and and delve into that and also understand what the limitations of your personality is.
Stuart S. Shapiro:You know? And, you know, because being creative has, you know, so many parts. Like, I you know, for me, creativity was always equal to materialization. So I used to like to say that, a producer is an alchemist. You really have to start with an idea and you actually have to make that you have to materialize.
Stuart S. Shapiro:Actually, if you think about the French word of director, it's called a realizette a real a realizetteur. Someone that realizes something, not direct something, which is, you know, more appropriate of a director and where the where the French language expresses it because you have to make a realization of concept, not just tell someone go here, go there, the concept of realization. From my perspective, I always, my scale of accomplishment was making something. So, like, you're doing podcast, you do a podcast, you finish it. Man, you made a podcast, move on.
Stuart S. Shapiro:You're actually making something. You can, you know, print it, it's there. So, you know, but I I grew up in the analog world. But all along, no matter what it is, you make a record, you make a video, you make a concert, you know, you make something. You gotta make something.
Stuart S. Shapiro:And and also part of the creative pitfalls is when you're stuck with something that you can't finish. Or, you know, you got and also as a creative person, you gotta have your balls going. So there's always 10 projects out of you know, that don't get finished. But the worst thing is to actually be in a project, and it doesn't get finished. That's sort of like having, you know, dust in your bed.
Stuart S. Shapiro:You you gotta you gotta finish your projects. That doesn't necessarily mean you have to finish the ones that are in development. But once you commit to to making something, you gotta go all the way, and it may take forever to do it, and sometimes it you know, it's a very, very long road, it's a crazy road, but I find that it's sort of like holding a hot rock in your hand if you don't finish, you know, your projects. It's still somehow it burns a hole in you somehow.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:So I I wanna I wanna ask a little bit about sort of, like, you know, sense of humor. Because, like, I am looking over the background and, obviously, music is in there. I see comedy in there and I see sort of this overarching entertainment media. But I want to speak on like humor. Like one of the tactics that I use.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:So, you know, they talk about when someone is nervous, they tell the truth. When I'm nervous, I leave it a bit. I go with jokes. So how important for you as as a creative person, as an entrepreneur, how important for you in this sort of journey of yours, How important has, us having a good sense of humor been?
Stuart S. Shapiro:Okay. So I know you said good sense of humor. I I don't really see it as a good sense of humor. I said, like, you know, why comedy? And why is a producer that has a choice to do anything?
Stuart S. Shapiro:You know, I was part of, distributing faces of depth. Like, okay. You know, I mean, I got the arc of humor to fucking madness. But the thing that's wonderful about, humor, funny, and I was thinking about it. When I was a film distributor, we used to have and I used to use the expression all the time, funny is money.
Stuart S. Shapiro:Funny is money. And you work on when you work on projects, you have you know, the editing and the assembling and the manufacturing, there's a lot of minutia, everything. And you go over, there's a repetition of stuff over and over and over again. And when you're working on something that's funny, it instills funniness because you took the deal with stuff all the time, you know? And then I noticed one of the great parts of that I noticed was my first film that I I ever was part of and I sort of was the executive producer, but I don't have a specific credit on it, was tunnel vision.
Stuart S. Shapiro:That was my first film in 1976, and it was a Neil Israel film. It had Chevy Chase in it, Howard knew, Howard Hessman and Lorraine Newman. It was the the early cast of, the 1st year of Saturday Night Live, and Neil actually shot the segments downstairs in the, in the basement of CBS. And I remember once we finished the film and we were screening the film that the audience actually laughed on frame. You could actually see count the frame that emitted the audience response.
Stuart S. Shapiro:So the same thing can be true for, horror. You know, people scream. You know, you are in a movie, and you can you see, you know, frame by frame with the reactions are are very, very decimal driven. So if you can make people laugh, I think there's a karmic ingestion that happens, you know, entertainment karmic energy, you know, even we put in the word quantum, karmic energy has a loop to it. You're you're in a loop of everything that you do and breathe and you are, but it's as a purveyor of entertainment and content, you're in that loop separately.
Stuart S. Shapiro:What you make, you send out. What it sends out comes back, and even if you're not part of it, it's part of it. You know? So to be lucky enough to make people laugh, I think it's like a I think it's good karma. You know?
Stuart S. Shapiro:As much as, you know, I I've had my handful of of of horror films, but but I never made really any horror films, but I distributed a handful of them. Comedy, I could never do enough comedy. And, you know, like, you think about comedy's dirtiest dozen that I I shot in 19, I think, 89. I think it was 89. I I mean, I still watch some of the segments and they and they still make me laugh over and over again.
Stuart S. Shapiro:So, you know, there's like a a good joke that does still makes you laugh if you heard it 20 times. That's you know, I don't know if that works the same. I don't know if he gets scared the same time or you know, I mean, I guess you see Rosemary's baby and every time the head turns, it's pretty freaky. A good joke really has longevity to it.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:No. No. I I I agree with that that that that that note there where, you know, I listen to a lot of, stand up records. I watch a lot of comedy, watch a lot of horror as well. And I find, like, the the reaction, you know, the the laughter, what have you, or, wow, okay, that was really funny, or I go back and go through old jokes.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:And for for me, one of the love languages or one of the signs of you you really like someone is when you share, like, this is one of my favorite jokes. This is one of my favorite bits. You share that with someone. It's something there, and I find, like, I there are certain things that are unnerving for me, that are, horror or or or something to that degree, and they don't hit the same way as that first time. That first time, like, when I think of The Ring, for instance, when the girl comes out of the television, I remember being in the theater with a bunch of different people.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:I was like, oh, no. This is freaky. But when I see it subsequently, I had to have a lot of time removed
Stuart S. Shapiro:from it,
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:kinda get even close to that initial response. It's more of a a shock thing, whereas for for comedy, I still kinda laugh at the the same jokes. I still pull up, oh, got John Mulaney here. I wanna laugh at this. This is gonna be great or Yeah.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:What have you. Listen to that on loop almost.
Stuart S. Shapiro:Well, you know, the Chinese believe that laughter extends your life, that laughter is healthy. So, you know, and I I don't know what kind of scientific nature, but I would assume it's true. You know, if you can I mean, people that are depressed, it's easier to die early and be fucked up? But if you're laughing all the time, it's a better life no matter what.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:I agree. I you know, try not to take too many things serious. And, again, you know
Stuart S. Shapiro:Well, especially Is that is that I don't know. It's really hard today, man. I don't know. Politically, it's really, really, really complicated. I wish there could be some more newer.
Stuart S. Shapiro:I was happy to see Biden make some fun the other day. That was that was worth it. Go ahead. Next one.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:Yeah. And and just just the the thing about it, like, you know, when when I'm when I'm doing this, it's it's a skill, like, and trying to sort of find the spot where this kinda lives and trying to get it over, and have folks come on and having sort of the cycle of potentially rejection of, like, I'm not gonna do this pod or this is stupid or this is a waste of time. There's a sort of thing that's that's there, of, like, man, rejection. Or this creative thing that I do, it can lead to some form of rejection or even lack of acceptance in the way that one wants to be accepted. And the way that I kinda combat it is I just turn the whole thing into a bit, you know, like, I'm on billboards and stuff here in Baltimore where I'm based, and people see me in the street, they're like, oh, Rob, hey, how's it going, man?
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:And I'm like, h list celebrity here, Rob Lee, you know, just take myself down a different letter, getting closer to z, because I don't take it serious. That's the only way I can, you know, not take myself serious or take what I'm doing serious to just when those moments come, when that shot to the ego or that shot to what I do creatively and what I love creatively takes a hit, I don't feel as, like, hurt and harmed by it, I suppose.
Stuart S. Shapiro:Well, you know, I, I I wrote this book, Identify Yourself, which really, thematically, a lot of it was really about rejection, creative rejection, and what is the part of the workflow in your life that that represents. And, you know, as an independent, artist or an independent producer, you know, any kind of area where you're making something and it requires a commercial concept to it at the other side, you're basically living with rejection your whole life. And Mhmm. And I, you know, I I lived through rejection and disappointment, and I've had the you know, I talk about how you could make a movie, and it could be a big hit, financially, potentially, and everybody calls it. So it's a piece of shit.
Stuart S. Shapiro:So, you know, you're making money and this piece of shit you still feel, like, terrible or you have a creative movie, everybody got this is fantastic, nobody shows up. And at the end of the rainbow, there is always complication, rejection, disappointment for the most part. So what I learned along the way and what I was trying to do in the book is give this sort of sense of courage to anyone that wanted to have the courage to read my book or know about it. To understand that the process, the creative process, that's what's important. Nothing else is important.
Stuart S. Shapiro:It's what you do when you wake up in the morning. It's what you do for the day. It's it's it's, you know, how are you? What kind of person are you? What did you make that day?
Stuart S. Shapiro:What did you accomplish that day? And, you know, it's like, you know, my wife is, was a book master and, she's a create a a book publisher, and now she's doing printmaking on her own. And she does a great piece and, you know, goes to a gallery and nothing sells. You know, you're like, oh, you want your stuff to sell, but that's not why you made it. You know what I mean?
Stuart S. Shapiro:You know, you know, you make things because they are you're they're the manufacturing process of your creative energy. That's the focus of your light, and what happens to them afterwards, they're they they never really, you know, please you in a way in a lot of ways. I mean, I always just say, you know, to make a movie, you always see the edits that were wrong. You always see the out of focus pull. You always see something that you kinda kinda should have compromised on and whatever.
Stuart S. Shapiro:I, I made I know this goes all the way to the end of your question here, but I'll segue into it because, one of my more infamous films was called Mondo New York, which I just rereleased in Blu ray 4 k after 25 years, almost 30 years, and it was never on DVD. And, I mean, I'll segue back to it somewhat, but what was interesting in it, it was a very, I pushed the that's the film that I pushed the farthest of anything that I'd ever done. And even though New Wave Theater was really not my own production, and that was still, you know, really from a punk new wave, There's still, you know, dead Kennedys and, you know, all of the bands in there are still, like, as can possibly be here 40 years later. Modern New York is a capsule. I purposely went out to try to push the concept of what is art and try to push that limit to the extreme, right?
Stuart S. Shapiro:And one of the artists in it, Phoebe Legere, great sexy woman. I put the the DVD out and she hadn't talked to me in a long time. And I knew she was mad at me from day 1 because I we shot she was always had a kind of a very raw sexual performance. And the cameraman shot her breathing on the floor with crotch shots and stuff, which was very mondo. And I was always had the attitude, like, come on.
Stuart S. Shapiro:Get over it. That's your rack. Come on. Give me a break. You you were playing for the cameras.
Stuart S. Shapiro:So she got ahold of me, and she said, you know, the you licensed my song, but actually the license is over. And I, you know, I I I don't wanna be a problem, but I I never I I never thought you were honest and fair about what you shot on that segment. And it hurt my career because it was way too sexy as an artist. Well, you know, for most of my as an artist. Well, you know, for most of my life, I would have said, hey, man.
Stuart S. Shapiro:I love you, but dig it. You know? You did that in front of the camera. You knew who the cameras was. You know?
Stuart S. Shapiro:And I kind of had that attitude about everybody for the most part, artists, like, hey. This is it. But I realized that I was actually harming somebody. I'm 75. She's older.
Stuart S. Shapiro:And and I said to her, like, right on the phone, I said, Phoebe, okay. I'm gonna re edit the movie. I can't re edit the DVD. It's on a DVD, but I'm gonna re edit the digital version. And not only will I reedit it, I'll reedit and send it to you and you approve it.
Stuart S. Shapiro:I you're right. I was a punk. And, but I'm not gonna say I was wrong, but I'm gonna say I can correct a wrong because I harmed a person that's an artist, and I wasn't that person for most of my life. Now I think that's something to reflect on because I think your arc as a younger person in life, you tend to have a much more fuck you attitude to everybody. You know?
Stuart S. Shapiro:Like, I'm gonna do it my way, and if you sign up for tuktukus, you don't get final edit. Yeah. But I I think that there's looking back, I I, you know, would I have done it differently? Probably.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:Yeah.
Stuart S. Shapiro:I've been today the person that I was then. But then maybe I wouldn't have made that movie. I mean, I had a, you know, Joe Coleman bit the heads off of 2 little baby mice. And, he was arrested from that performance and I got rat parts in the mail for 2 years. So, you know, I've had my share of being on the wrong side of, ethical movements, by being a punk on that level.
Stuart S. Shapiro:But I don't know. I just digressed it into it. You know, I don't know where I went on it, but I'm not sure. Got an end to it.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:See, that's that's a good thing. I I like to like, sometimes you gotta just let people cook because you've answered 3 questions. So it's fantastic. And and and and, like, like I said, I just feel so fortunate in in doing doing this, having this conversation with you because gives me a little juice and well, a lot of juice actually and encouraged to kind of stay the course in what I'm doing and and pushing sort of those those boundaries. So in in in looking back at let's start a little bit further into you into your book.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:So, you know, I I see the, you know, sort of revisiting moments was a question that I added. You know, just why is it for for folks that are listening, why is it important to have those those moments of rejection and how to really, you know, sort of sort of handle them, so so to take those in. And and I'll add this sort of context there. Couple years ago, I got, like, best podcast at Baltimore, and I had, I had, you know, some folks, like, man, that's great, man. That's wonderful.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:And I was, like, this feels good. This is great. And then other folks, the kind of what you're describing with the with the film. And I had one buddy who I really look up to. He was like, you know, don't get too high on it.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:Don't get too low on it. He's like, you know, the reality is somewhere in the middle, and that's the one that's out more to me than anything else. So how important is it from from your viewpoint to have rejection within the process? Like, you know, folks have all of these wins, and when they come up against any degree of adversity, it's just I don't know. I don't have it.
Stuart S. Shapiro:So let me try to split rejection into 2 primary components. Sure. Self rejection and external rejection. As an artist, I think self rejection is absolutely essential to becoming anywhere good and for sure, great. My first wife, Stella, was, Jimi Hendrix's protege.
Stuart S. Shapiro:And, her husband at the time, Allen Douglas, went on to be Jimmy's, producer later on in the stages. But Stella always said to me, every time Jimmy walked off stage, it was always critical. Oh, I fucked up this thing. Oh, I couldn't believe that. You know?
Stuart S. Shapiro:And we always laughed about, you know, the the, you know, the greater the artist, the more self critical they are. And so you have to have self critical components to your artistry, because otherwise, you have no art to become great, other than you're just a mediocre person. As a matter of fact you know the most mediocre musicians we probably have ever known were never self critical. We always laugh about it. Oh he thinks everything is fucking great.
Stuart S. Shapiro:Like, no it's not, you're terrible. But so internal self criticism, internal self, constant sense of of forcing yourself to push. You said at the beginning of being nervous. You gotta be nervous. You gotta be nervous.
Stuart S. Shapiro:Otherwise, you're mediocre. And mediocracy is, like like, okay. Just die. Like, what the fuck? So that's that part, and that's the most important part.
Stuart S. Shapiro:The second part, of course, is the outside world. And the outside world is always critical. Everybody is critical. And the the the lamer they are, the more critical they are. And, you know, then there's, you know, on the 3rd party, then there's, you know, really genuine critical people who can delve into your work and be really finite and intellectually aspiring to criticize something in the right way, whether you agree or not agree.
Stuart S. Shapiro:And those are great moments. But then that's not rejection. Rejection is, I think, something that you process internally. I mean, somebody could say something to you that's rejection, but you don't necessarily have to internalize it as rejection. You could just say, I'm a bamboo, man.
Stuart S. Shapiro:It's like water off the bamboo. I'm sorry. It's like, okay. I'm moving on. And and but the other aspect is rejection, I think, is fuel.
Stuart S. Shapiro:I think it's creative fuel. I really do. I think it's I think it's logs on the fire. And I think that it in the end, rejection, pain, suffering, even in the face of beauty, does create, a more, I don't wanna say more fine art, but I I think it's really it's it's fuel for the creative process. So I think it's part it's yin and yang, man.
Stuart S. Shapiro:You know, it's like you you gotta have the yin and yang. And and if you're a creative person, you're just generally gonna be rejected. You got it. But, you know, it's hard, though. I mean, it depends on what degree of self confidence you may have or what you're surrounded with.
Stuart S. Shapiro:Do you have a good family? You know, do you does the family make up for you being, you know, punked outside? You know, there's a lot of different components to it, but as an artist, there's no way out.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:When when I when I go through thank you so much. When I when I go through and I do these interviews, I I I remember I was commiserating in an interview with, another podcaster, and he he was talking about how, you know, he wasn't getting any love, any acknowledgment in the hometown, but as soon as he got some some acknowledgment and then won several awards, in New York, suddenly everyone comes back, and he's like, oh, I'm on a revenge tour right now. He's like, I'll pull out the old emails. He's like, I'm fueled by pettiness, and I was like, me too. And thinking about those those the the sort of log in the fire, I I think about those things where it's like I came here with this sort of intent, and I wanted to do this thing with it, and, you know, it just didn't work for whatever reason.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:And it was sort of like the the lack of acknowledgment, the lack of sort of consideration, and and things of that nature boils up to a version of rejection for me. But, you know, the the internal piece about it, that that hits so so close because, you know, I think me and I I think a lot of creative folks, they're just like, I'm bad at this. I don't know what I'm doing. And then, eventually, you know, it's sort of like, oh, okay. Yeah.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:You're getting that feedback maybe from those external factors, or you start to see progress in your work, like, k. This is getting easier. This is looking cooler. I like this, but it has to come from yourself. That's the one that feels much more important, I think, than the external one.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:When when folks come to me and they'll they'll say, hey, you know, your podcast reminds me of this, or your questions are like this, or your style is like this, I'm like, yeah. Sure. All of it. And none of it. I don't know.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:But I try to drive home the point of what my intent is and what I'm trying to do, and I'm critiquing my own thing based off what my intent is.
Stuart S. Shapiro:Yeah. So the the one other aspect that you, you know, you you gotta counter rejection and disappointment, is, when you do get recognized or when, you know, like you sort of say. I mean, frankly, you know, you inviting me to a podcast like this, you know, gives me a sense of recognition to myself, you know, just the fact that, you know, you're interested in talking to me about, you know, what I'm made of who I am, or that I'm actually, you know, got this creative. I tell my wife every so often, you know, she actually, you know, some people think I'm a legend, you know, You know, like, there's always a famous saying, you know, behind, you know, behind every genius is a wife that is telling him he's a schmuck, you know. It's like, I, I really I've been very lucky lately because, Night Flight after You know, I started Night Flight in 1981 and it ran for 8 years on USA Network, all night long.
Stuart S. Shapiro:And I, I had my own arc through it. I actually left, Night Flight in late 86 after my son was born, and I I ran away from it. But I having started in DipeFlight Plus again, you know, several years ago and it being really revived and, you know, getting really discovered. And not only discovered, but discovered by people that were I I have a lot of people that come up to me and I get I get a very similar statement a lot, which is like, I grew up on Nightfly. I wouldn't be the person I am today if it wasn't for Nightfly.
Stuart S. Shapiro:I go, I I run a record company. I would have never been in a record. I wouldn't wouldn't be that. I'm an artist. Night Flight opened my world to me that it wasn't flat.
Stuart S. Shapiro:It was early around. And I've been really lucky lately to get those kind of comments from individuals, in a plurality to to a degree that, you know, okay. Hey, man. You know, that's really kinda cool. And and the funny aspect to that story is that, a lot of people that have come up to me and tell me they grew up on Night Flight were 8 years old when they watched Night Flight.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:And they
Stuart S. Shapiro:were telling me the same story. You know, I snuck out of the room after my parents went to sleep and turned on the TV and watched it at, you know, or my big brother was smoking potty. Let me come in and watch it. And, you know, I always laugh about it because, you know, we never and never ever ever thought that that, we had 8 year olds watching a night flight. You know, we thought it was a pot smoking 25, 35 year old group of people, which it was, of course, but there were a lot of young kids that you know, I had this one guy.
Stuart S. Shapiro:He's a really, really big fan. He's a son of a really famous, musician. And he tells me the story where he stuck out of the room. Well, I could when I tell the story. And the first video he saw in his life as an 8 year old was the residence video.
Stuart S. Shapiro:And, and the residence was, you know, crazy I know, almost like a psychedelic or people watch Liquid Sky for the first time or, you know, like, really psychedelic stuff, and they were young. And all of a sudden, their world was, like, completely different forever. And it's, like, taking acid as an 8 year old, but a video acid, you know, in a lot of ways. So that's kinda pretty cool that, I was able to actually accomplish that. Yeah.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:I mean, you know, discovering it and discovering it sort of secondhand as, you know, I was touching on earlier. My my partner is just 12 years older than than I am, and she's like, I remember watching this as a kid as a kid. I was like, when when did you watch this? I I don't know what this is. What is it?
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:She was like, just just watch just watch along. And now it's literally, you know, watching Night Flight Plus is on, you know, it's on the Apple feed for us, and we're watching it regularly. I have the Spotify thing. It's like, oh, okay. This is the song.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:This is great. This is what I'm into, and it's sort of there and, you know, that that sort of 8 like, I'm 39. Right? And that that sort of age the difference. It's one of those things where this is why we we always remind each other.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:This is why we're together. We both are having the same sort of simpatico moment and it's watching something like Night Flight. It's just like, oh, right. You're into that. Yeah.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:I am too. Like, I you know, I was around when this was popping. Like, I remember growing growing up during this time or what have you. My my partner would say, And I'm like, I have no context for this, but I'm completely in.
Stuart S. Shapiro:Yeah. So alright. So it brings up a good point here, which I've been trying to understand and and has constantly brought up. And this is the concept of nostalgia. Yeah.
Stuart S. Shapiro:And, you're 39, you said? Okay. So, you're 39, and you could have a sense of nostalgia for a time that you were not aware of. So, I had people call me, you know, they're 39. You're you know, there's like a that you're there's a 35 to 55 year old bulk main audience, but the the 39 year olds and the 4 to 40 some odd year olds are in the stalls about the time.
Stuart S. Shapiro:I and I'm I'm still not quite understanding of how that really works. But I do know that and I use the expression, nostalgia is the best weed in town. Because I think, you know, nostalgia somehow has a serotonin kind of hit to it, and it does make you feel good assuming, of course, that you're nostalgic about a good time. God forbid you're, like, nostalgic or when you're abused. That's different.
Stuart S. Shapiro:But most people when they tell me nostalgia, oh, this video reminds me or this song banging this chick or, like, you know, this. And so I'm asking turn around and ask you, how can you be a nostalgia for a time that you were not a part of?
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:I I think for me, when I watch, like, maybe the music videos, the sort of the culture that's that's being covered, it's kind of understanding the reference, understanding the sources that are in these references that I'm more familiar with that I'm like, oh, so this is where this comes from. Let me go in here and do sort of the, down the rabbit hole thing, and I'm like, I kinda wish I was here. I kinda wish I was during that time. I was one of those kids that, you know, we used to record, like, television on the VHS, and we'd have the commercials, all of that stuff trying to set the tone, and I I don't know. For some reason, it's just like, I guess maybe the commercials ran longer, maybe sort of, the movies were of that era were played more, but there are stuff in that sort of, like, eighties time period.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:I was born in the mid eighties. During that eighties time period that I'm much more, like, nostalgic for than maybe before. You know, like, stuff that's from the seventies, I I don't I don't really have that reference point, But stuff from the eighties, maybe because of I wasn't it's just like, oh, no. No. This is great.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:I see this DNA and this content that I am a much more familiar with because that's of my era. But seeing maybe the people who made that stuff, they were probably informed by stuff from, like, the earlier eighties that I don't understand or I wasn't around for, but now I see it and I connect those dots, and I see some truth there. That's what that nostalgia comes from for me, I suppose. Mhmm.
Stuart S. Shapiro:Does it make you feel good? Absolutely. Yeah. Hell,
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:yeah. It's it's it's a great feeling, and it's
Stuart S. Shapiro:it's awesome. Here it go. Good on that Night Flight Plus. Shake it up, and feel good. The Night Flight High.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:It's it's one of those things that I I, you know, like, you know, feeling like I I was missing something and then being able to kinda get it and just receive it. And it's, like, part of I feel upon watching an installment, I feel cultured. I feel a bit more cultured in the in the way that I look for it. And that's that's the thing that I get out of it. I I I love that about it.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:And, you know, I think sort of there's me doing this podcast before being aware of of Night Flight and me doing it, like, after, and I try to incorporate some of the some of this stuff and at least the the the spirit that I feel is there.
Stuart S. Shapiro:Well, I'd say, you know, that's really a you you know, culture, is really, I use discovery a lot, but, you know, culture and it's not I mean, it's not it's cultured, but it's almost counterculture to a lot of degree because as, you know, we we're we're we're there's a lot of culture around us, but cultured to be cultured. That's a question really. To be cultured, you should have a wider palette of what it is to be cultured. And our job and my job has always seemed to have been, you know, present the counterculture of culture, and and present it in in its glory as best as possible and kind of uncensored in a way. You know, when I made comedies dirtiest dozen, what made that film I don't know if you ever watched it, but it's really you should, you know, you should check out a couple of the performances on it.
Stuart S. Shapiro:It's actually on my flight plus. You could watch it. So I went to spent a whole year with, going around the country, and the concept was to choose the 12 dirtiest comedians that were local and not known nationally, which was not hard. Fly into New York in front of a live audience, shooting 35 millimeter, no retakes. No retakes.
Stuart S. Shapiro:One straight shot. So they had to perform, their they had to perform their their performance with no edits or anything. Yeah. And, the the the tension that was created in the performance because they knew it was one live take was really made the the the the performance have such a, a liveliness to it. You know?
Stuart S. Shapiro:It wasn't like, oh, hey. Start all over again. It was like, hey, man. It's you got 10 minutes? Own your set down and deliver it.
Stuart S. Shapiro:And, also, like, I went to, I'm not gonna say Chris, not Tim. Bill Bill Hicks. Sorry. Bill Hicks. Yeah.
Stuart S. Shapiro:Legendary. And I said to Bill, I said, I want you to do a set that you could get arrested for if you did it down south. That that you wouldn't do live in front of an audience and down south. So, you know, whatever it is and he did he did do a set that was really over the top. I loved him.
Stuart S. Shapiro:He was really special, really super special.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:That's that's that'll be great. And then,
Stuart S. Shapiro:of course, you know, Chris Rock. I was born a suspect, you know, opens up his side. I was born a suspect, You know? Think about that. Chris Rock, Pure.
Stuart S. Shapiro:I was born a suspect.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:Oh, yeah. That's that's everybody on the list.
Stuart S. Shapiro:Everyone up there, they dial 91 and waited for me to come by.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:That's good. It's good. It's it's it's on it's gonna be on the list. You know, once I get back in town, definitely, you know, I enjoy a good laugh and knowing that that's there. Hell, yeah.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:That's that's there. That's good. That's good. So I got I got 2 sort of, like, last real questions, and then I have a few, if you indulge me, rapid fire questions. They're fun questions.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:They're goofy questions. They're fun. But these these next 2 I just want to hit you with, I've I've been kind of playing with this idea of creative fasting. You know, like, I do this this podcast. It's a community thing and it's like, go to this art show, go to my performance and so on.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:And I had to take, like, a 6 months hiatus just not going to anything, just needed to or kinda going to other places to get maybe a different perspective, getting out of my creative bubble. Is that something that that you've done, like kinda getting away from sort of your creative bubble, which you would normally do maybe to jog something loose, and maybe have a different perspective and open it up. Because, you know, there's an eclectic nature to a lot of the work that you've done over your career, so it's varying different and the the notion you said about, you know, being cultured. So what do you think about that that concept of sort of creative fasting or kinda getting out of your creative bubble?
Stuart S. Shapiro:I would say the opposite.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:Sure.
Stuart S. Shapiro:I I would say that it's, you know, I'm older now, so I, you know, I don't get a chance to go, you know, till what I kinda beat myself up and we don't go out enough. We don't see enough music. We don't go downtown. We don't, you know, and when I was young and in my prime, going out was what made it all happen all the time. You know, you connect it, someone give you that, you see a performance of CBGBs.
Stuart S. Shapiro:You see a band or whatever. See an artist. I know video art. Oh, I gotta have it. So, you know, you travel in the in in there is you know, you don't you don't wanna be in a bubble.
Stuart S. Shapiro:And where you're in a creative bubble, hopefully, it's all in New York City. You know, I mean, New York is I was lucky, you know, to be in New York because New York's a good big creative bubble. It really is in a lot of ways. So I I I don't I don't think I could ever I mean, I I left night flight in 1986 to leave a cocaine bubble, but that wasn't a creative bubble. I had to escape the rock and roll drug world, that was just insidious at every corner and every person and everywhere.
Stuart S. Shapiro:And I had to run away from that. So that's a little bit different, you know, to try to to to change that that incestuousness that came with rock and roll and the world that we were in downtown on that level. But I'd say the opposite. I say, you know, you gotta you gotta every time you go out, there's always some influence that turned you on whatever. There's always influences.
Stuart S. Shapiro:Gotta be you know, it's can come from all kinds of ways. So I don't know if that's your answer to it. It's but I'd I'd say, you know, get over it and get out.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:Nugget. That that helps. That's good.
Stuart S. Shapiro:By the way, I'm just gonna say one other thing was that I thought you were gonna say what's my creative bubble? How do I get my creative bubble? And I was gonna ask you when I spoke pot, I'm very creative. You know, it's I'd say, you know, from a creative perspective, weed is definitely an an instigator of creativity. There's, like, no doubt about it for me anyway.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:That's, that's that's good. It's good. Yeah. That definitely was a a a big part. I remember I used to listen to a lot of Kevin Smith's podcast, small cast, and he was talking about being awake and bake person and we can Baker.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:And he was like, look, I know this is irresponsible. He's like, I love smoking weed. I'm smoking weed all day. He's like, but I have to give myself something creative and business like that I'm doing so I don't feel like a complete loser. He's like, so I'm editing a podcast.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:I'm editing a movie. I got a joint lit, and he was like, they come out better for some reason. It it made me laugh, and I applied that to what I was doing. I was like, if I'm gonna sit here and I'm gonna smoke this joint, I was like, you should work on something. Right.
Stuart S. Shapiro:Well, it's hard to be you know, it's interesting. I mean, I think weed has a creativity to it, but it also can, you know, be be problematic, you know, in terms of, like, focus and, you know, being detailed, but it sure does help creativity. I mean, my my wife always laughs at me when I come back and I start saying, did you smoke some pie? I said, yeah. Like, this idea, I think.
Stuart S. Shapiro:You know?
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:That's why I always have a notepad with me. I was like, look, I gotta write this down. I'm not gonna know later. So so here's here's sort of the last real question I have for you, and, I'm I'm always curious about sort of the different phases in in one's journey or what have you. Like, like, early on, like I said, I've been podcasting for 15 years.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:I've been doing this particular podcast. It'll be 5 years later in the summer, and I was before I set up for for this one, I was looking at questions from that first group, and I was like, yo, I have come all far, far away from some of my questions initially, and sort of being able to stretch the boundaries of who I'm talking to. Like, I'm talking to a legend right now, and that's, like, challenging and informational and kinda getting a gauge of where I'm at as a interviewer, as a podcaster. For you within your your journey, what's been the most rewarding, informational, or or challenging point for you?
Stuart S. Shapiro:2 2 aspects to that. One is, having to be able to rejoice in some of the films that I made, that were, you know, pretty much a documentarian for the most part. You know? But when, you know, you kinda try to think about, you know, what's, you know, what kind of immortality your content can have. Not yourself personally, but, you know, what it I've had a joy knowing some of the films that I have that are in in my library that I made them, and I had a chance to make them or produce them or distribute them.
Stuart S. Shapiro:And, I I feel, you know, that does reward me personally. But then I go back to night flight, and I I really, I'm, you know, I'm 75. I'm, I'm pretty much sort of a working retired person, you know, because I'm working, but I'm not, like, going crazy with a, you know, staff and managing people and trying to build something. But I am trying to build Nightfly. But Night Flight is constantly rewarding for me.
Stuart S. Shapiro:Every time Thomas and I have a great partner, Thomas Malarni. He's he's almost your age. He's my partner. He's been since we started at NYFA, I was really lucky I got, like, my he's like my son. He's like, you know, Stuart reincarnated in a way that's, you know, and he really has got all of the great sensibilities and he runs the network.
Stuart S. Shapiro:So you know, we we put out new content every single Friday, and, it gets refreshed and and then NFTV gets refreshed, the programming and the Horathon channel gets refreshed, and there's just, like, this this constant flow of really cool content that's flowing. And that that heartbeat and the fact that I'm so lucky to actually be at this stage of my life because I'm on the back 9. I'm way on the back 9 here no matter what, you know, and to be able to be rewarded by creativity and it's got a flow to it. It's not like I gotta work for a year to try to make a movie and then maybe it comes out, like, night flight's alive. It's, like, it's a living living organism, and that is food.
Stuart S. Shapiro:It's like eating all the time, and I'm eating it and I'm giving it. And that is I'm very, very lucky to be able to have somehow arrived at that point in my life where I I have a a channel that's our own. Yeah. I don't I mean, I don't have to, you know, Thomas and I, we, you know, we have to please each other, but there's 2 people and it's my show and it'll you know? And I don't have to I don't have a boss.
Stuart S. Shapiro:I don't have a network trying to tell me, oh, you can't use the word fuck on your channel or you just put this so on or you know? Dude, it's like, you know, I guess, where you would be at if you were to think that at 75 years old, you could still be doing some podcast, you know, you should wanna do that because it doesn't you should never stop doing your shit, man. And if you can do it and, you know, hopefully, make a living still with it and it's your legacy in a way and you're still making content until the day you die, I don't think it gets any better than that. Particularly, if you're you know, we're in the digital world now. So digitally really allows such a a a different sense of prolific prolificness, you know.
Stuart S. Shapiro:So I'm I'm I'm fortunate with full gratitude, I really am. And, you know, I'm I'm older and and nightlife keeps me young in a lot of ways. I mean, it does it it's it's almost like that laughter. You know what I mean? But there's something that's really nourishing when you get a chance as an artist to be able to make your stuff and it gets out.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:That's that's great. And, you know, to definitely, I'm just, you know, just hearing hearing so much from you that, you know, I aspire and I'm I'm looking at, you know, just, you know, being being independent here, having having like freedom and having sort of that content and being able to have something that you're proud of and that's assures that's, you know, why I've tried to stay independent in doing this in a world where
Stuart S. Shapiro:Stay the course, man. Stay the course, Rob. Stay the course. You're doing it.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:And I'll say I'll say this before I close and you go to these these last few rapid fire questions, you know, and and staying and being riding the wave as I call them. I'm notorious. So I'm riding the wave. That's what I call it. And, I've been able to to teach.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:I've been an educator for, like, the last probably, like, 7 months, teaching high school kids how to podcast, and I'm gonna be teaching college students this summer.
Stuart S. Shapiro:That's really cool. Good for you.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:It's it's like one of those things that I wasn't expecting to be a part of this whole arc, but it's it's rewarding and it's kinda counter to what the thing is. It's like, hey. You should be part of a big net big network, and they do all of the work for you. No. I don't really know if I wanna do that.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:I'd rather have a lot of what I find interesting in there. I want to speak to the people that I want to speak to and have the conversations that I want to have. And, you know, if people are down for the ride and we have a shared vision, that's where the hit is at. But some of these other things that are this is the path for you because you're a podcaster and this is the bucket we're putting you in, Not really with it. So it's definitely cool and rewarding to hear.
Rob Lee - Truth In This Art:And there you have it, folks. I'm going to again welcome And there you have it, folks. I want to again thank Stewart Shapiro for coming on to the podcast and sharing a bit of his journey with us and some some great insights. And I'm Rob Lee saying that there's art, culture and community in around your neck of the woods. You've just got to look for it.
