Ryan Havers (Ears with Eyes): Electro-Punk, Satire & Creative Freedom
Download MP3You know, but what you do is an art form too. I mean, this it's and and it is a lot of that's the thing about art is it's a community. It's not just the art, the people making the art, quote, quote, unquote, making the art. Right? You like like, what you do what you do, there's an art to what you do.
Ryan Havers:I think there's an art to everything. You know? But, it's it's like this sort of symbiotic relationship. It's a it's a community, and it's a sort of big you know, if you if you allow it to be, it becomes a sort of big sort of organism in and of itself, you know, which just grows and grows.
Rob Lee:Welcome to The Truth in This Art, your source of conversations at the intersection of arts, culture, and community. I am your host, Rob Lee. Thank you for joining me. Today, I am excited to be in conversation with my next guest. He is an electric punk performance artist who critiques corporate culture and workaholism, addressing their impact on mental health while blending music and performance art to challenge societal norms.
Rob Lee:Please welcome Ryan Havers, also known as Ears with Eyes. Welcome to the podcast.
Ryan Havers:Hey, Rob. How's it going? Thanks for having me, man.
Rob Lee:Thank you for coming on, man. It's, it's it's a treat. You know, I've like, there's there's a quirkiness. There's a an interest there. There is, as far as your your works, I'm ready to to dive in.
Rob Lee:And we've been able to talk a little bit before we actually get to the podcast in earnest. So I wanna for the for the benefit of the listeners, I wanna go backwards. Okay. You know? And, could you introduce yourself and tell us a bit about your work?
Ryan Havers:Sure. So, yeah, I'm Ryan Havers. I have I I have a, I I have a moniker that I go by called ears with eyes. It's a solo project that I started, in about 2019. Yeah.
Ryan Havers:Yeah. I think around the pandemic. And it and it was basically I I've been playing music for 30 years. I started when I was 14 playing guitar. I was bitten by the bug pretty early on.
Ryan Havers:Like, I remember the very first chord. I mean, it was just like, I wanna feel that all the time. Like, I wanna that's what I'm doing. That's it. Yeah.
Ryan Havers:But, so I've been playing in bands and and, recording and a little bit of touring and stuff like that for for quite some time now. But, I don't feel as though I had a real sort of artistic vision until until I started Ears With Eyes.
Rob Lee:Yeah.
Ryan Havers:And it was really just unfiltered me just for fun. Yeah. You know? To to really it was like it's like therapy, you know? It's just like, these are the things that, like, that just aggravate me, that are frustrating, And to really sum it up, it it's it's a commentary on on corporate America, corporate culture, workaholism, and, and, really, sort of that parlays into mental illness, and how how all that, you know, just constantly working can can affect your mental well-being.
Rob Lee:Thank you. That that's that's good. I I definitely connect to it when I watch, like, you know, let's say sci fi or read, it's like sci fi books, there'll be stuff from like the fifties. And they're like, oh, you got a time to put those credits in, make sure you're working these extra hours. And I'm like, oh, it is just a scam.
Rob Lee:You know, I started looking at it, and as a person who is a workaholic, I like to be busy. I like to, you know I it got to a point where, you know, and this is peeling back the curtain. In real life at I'm I'm almost 40. I'm 39. And, you know, when I was 24, I was burnt out because of that, you know, 2 years out of college, workaholic.
Rob Lee:Now this is where it's really interesting. That's where I found podcasting. Yeah. I was like, I can do this myself and put that effort and that energy in something I actually love and I care about, and it just feels like I'm just having fun versus I'm working. You know what I mean?
Rob Lee:And and I'll probably touch on that a little bit more later, but that's one of those things where I I think I was fortunate to be aware of this notion of just the burnout, the whole overworking, and the corporate culture. Not a corporate job, like corporate marketing job at a big Fortune 50 company. Yeah. This is not the jam for me. So before I'd be remiss if I didn't ask.
Rob Lee:So the name, ears with eyes, what's the significance? Where does that come from?
Ryan Havers:You know, I wish I had a better story, but so what many people have told me over the years that, you know, the music that I write evokes some imagery. It's or I've been told it's cinematic. Yeah. You know, not traditional cinematic like orchestral, but just it just people have said, oh, I could see this in a show. I could see this in a movie.
Ryan Havers:So I was really, ears with eyes, just to back up a little bit. Sure. It was it became my solo moniker, but I started it as a side hustle to for music for media. Yeah. To write music for film, TV, movies, whatever, corporate logos, stuff like that.
Ryan Havers:And never I've I think I've had one client since then, so it never really you know? But I just thought, okay. I have ears that have eyes. I have ears with eyes. Got it.
Ryan Havers:So it's like the music I write is visual or visually invoking.
Rob Lee:I like it. My my partner, she makes fun of how small my ears are. You can't see them with these cans. And I had glasses, so it's, like, 2 ears, 4 eyes. It's no.
Rob Lee:I don't know. It's fine. It's fine. We'll we'll workshop it. It's fine.
Ryan Havers:I'll tell you what, though. Like, it's kinda like the worst name because nobody can remember it. Everyone's like, oh, hey. How's eyes and ears? Or ears and eyes or ears, and I'm just like, that actually I I but at this point, rebranding it and all that stuff is like, ah, it is what it is.
Rob Lee:I like it. It's it it in those, 15 attempts to get my intro right, I definitely flipped it. I was like, I gotta get this right. That's what I so I I think we have our starts. Right?
Rob Lee:Those sort of initial moments that we're interested in. Like, I can look back when I was interested in sort of my first creative thing. You know, I was I wanted to be an illustrator. That's that's what I wanted to do. And, obviously, it was like seeing comics and cartoons.
Rob Lee:I was like, man, I wanna do that one day. Yeah. And, and then when I got to sort of this stage of podcasting, I you know, probably before podcasting, maybe 10 years before it became a became something I would do in this sort of way, I had the little recorder, you know, like one of those jerks from these eighties movies, click, you know, leave note to self. So that's the proto experience of me going into this. How did you know, what was that that moment, like super early that you were even looking at an instrument?
Rob Lee:And maybe it wasn't always guitar, but, you know, you said 30 years, right? So is there something like probably maybe 31 years ago that I was just like, okay, this is a creative thing. I know that a creative life or an artistic life is gonna be something that's in your future.
Ryan Havers:Yeah. So just to date myself, I'm 46. So I was, like, early teens, like, 13, 14 in in the early nineties. Right?
Rob Lee:Yeah.
Ryan Havers:And, I just I I I remember, I had a Walkman, which is also dating myself. Right? Yep. For people who are younger, a Walkman is a cassette player that you had in your hand that that you could put a cassette tape in. I just loved music I was listening to it all the time.
Ryan Havers:Also, at that time, you're starting to change, you're hitting puberty, You're trying to find yourself. I had played sports. I was a very I was okay at it, but it it wasn't I was kinda aimless. You know? And I was a quiet kid, and I just I just music just really kinda was like a magnet for me.
Ryan Havers:I just I just was so I was constantly listening to my cassette tapes, and I just remember in my parents' kitchen just pacing the floor, like, whatever, at night, just listening back and forth, listening to the same songs. I would get obsessed with certain songs, and I'd and I'd be, like, air guitaring with it. And then one day, I just woke up, and I was like, maybe I should try guitar. Yeah. You know?
Ryan Havers:Like, I was just like, this sounds so cool. I don't understand how they do it. Like, it was like a problem I wanted to solve. You know? Like, how do they do that?
Ryan Havers:How do they how does it sound so cool? And so a friend of mine I remember, my friend, my best friend, Dave, he was away for the summer. He was visiting his family some you know? And and I was like, hey, man. Do you do you have that guitar?
Ryan Havers:Can I can I borrow your guitar? He's like, yeah. Yeah. Just, you know, just ask my mom. Okay.
Ryan Havers:So I went to his house, borrowed the guitar. I didn't know any I didn't know how what I was doing. Yeah. And, like, I I was, like, just turning the tuning pegs, and I broke a string. And I thought I broke the guitar.
Ryan Havers:I I, like that's how little I knew about guitar. I didn't know you could just replace a string. I was, like, oh my god. I just broke Dave's guitar. I don't know.
Rob Lee:Oh, no.
Ryan Havers:My dad my dad was like, no. No. No. We it's he he wasn't a musician, but he knew enough to be like, yeah. We can just replace the string.
Ryan Havers:I was like, oh, jeez. And then it you know, I a a good friend of mine, Jeff, his dad played guitar, and so and he played guitar, and and they taught me my first chords, and and they let me borrow their acoustic they had an acoustic guitar, and and and and and, yeah, just it turned out I had pretty good ear, and and I just I just was, like I just couldn't put it down. Once I started, I couldn't I was just obsessed with it. And it it was just sort of like the the clouds apart, and I was, like, yeah. This is what I'm gonna do.
Rob Lee:Yeah. So I I can't help but notice in the the background multiple guitars. Right? Yeah. Yeah.
Rob Lee:So what is your, sort of, like we all have our our different, like, favorites. Like, for instance, I generally use Zoom recording devices. That's my preference. I have a few, like, Rode mics, but generally it's Zoom. That is my preference.
Rob Lee:I've used Behringer and all of that different stuff. We start talking ear. You know, what is your, like, favorite, like, guitar? Like, you know, sometimes and maybe if you remember the one that you thought you broke, you know, what type that was. But what is your your go to guitar?
Ryan Havers:Well, the one that I broke was a Harmony, which is like a bottom of the line. It's like you could get it for, like, back in the day, like, $50 or something like that. You know? It was like a very, you know, but it would but it was like now and it was white with a black pickguard. It was just so basic looking.
Ryan Havers:Yeah. But now I think about that, and I'm like, man, I wish I had that guitar. That it'd be cool to play it now. You know? Yep.
Ryan Havers:I like I have you know, different guitars have different sounds and have different feels. And but I I have so so there's there's a company Squire that that makes very I'm like a a value shopper because I have kids now. So, like, I don't I try not to spend a lot of money on gear. So it's like, Squire makes these instruments that are, like, they sound really good for, like, $400, and they play well. So I have 2 of those.
Ryan Havers:This this, where is it? This telecaster is a Squire classic vibe, and it sounds better than, like, some, like, 1,000, 1500, $2,000 tallies. It sounds better than those. So it's like I'm always looking for or, like, I'll go on Facebook Marketplace or, you know, I'll I'll buy used stuff a lot Yeah. Just just to keep it you know, keep the price down.
Rob Lee:Someone's at at vibe where like, I'm I'm really I've been studying, like, Japanese for, like, the last year. Right? And definitely a big part of the culture. And, it's it's Duolingo. It's not that impressive.
Rob Lee:But, you know, it is it's one of those things. And I always get curious about it was this documentary, film, Euro Dreams of Sushi.
Ryan Havers:Oh, yeah, yeah.
Rob Lee:And the whole thing about, sort of, understanding, like, you could have something that is sort of not the best piece of fish, but your technique and how you prepare it. That's what I'm thinking, though, when you describe it. It's, like, look, it's good sound that comes out of this guitar. It's not a $2,000, you know, guitar. It might be 400.
Rob Lee:It might be used. But so the technique, the skill, the attention that goes into playing it. You know, I have like a little $99 recorder. I was like, I'm gonna get good audio out of this.
Ryan Havers:Absolutely.
Rob Lee:You know, when I was teaching, I was sharing with you earlier, I used the really high end lav Rode mics, the professional joints. I think I just got them here like 700. And then, you know, I had the small recorder, and for show I had the clip ons, the lavs. Yeah. But for the actual recording, I used the one off the off the little Zoom $100 one, and my students were like, so you use those mics?
Rob Lee:I was like, no. Them same ones we're demonstrating in class. The one that you have. So you can get really quality out of it.
Ryan Havers:Yeah. I I I think that it's it's not look. I think in some cases, it it depends on what what it is. Right? Sure.
Ryan Havers:Sometimes you want some, I guess, high end stuff. But I for what I do, I feel like it's not the tool. It's the what do they say? It's not the tool. It's a carpenter.
Ryan Havers:Right? Yeah. And I and I think that, like, I think the good art needs constraints, needs boundaries. You know what I mean? It needs like like, some people make some of the best shit with very little.
Ryan Havers:Because that's all they have, and they learn it inside and out, and they get creative with it. Yeah. You know? So it's, like, I also don't have the capacity just Yeah. Mentally to have a a a lot of equipment and be, like, oh, well like, kudos to, like, anyone who has, like, a a mic locker with, like, every mic known to man and and, like, high end equipment.
Ryan Havers:I mean, I'm not an engineer. I think I I you know, this isn't, like, a knock on people that have good equipment and know how to use it artistically. I'm not saying that. I just know for me, like, I I I can squeeze something good out of something that's maybe thought of as not that good.
Rob Lee:I hear you. It's it's the the thing that I kept getting across in in my class, and I really believe in it. Yeah. The It's that notion. It's like having the right tool for the job.
Rob Lee:And before I move into this this next question, I'll just say this. I remember when that sort of wave of the podcast boom, I saw every jerk with a microphone had the same, RodeCaster, and I'm like, you don't even know how to use it. Why do you have that?
Ryan Havers:You know what's funny? And I just gotta say and and I have an SM 7 beta. Okay. But I'll tell you what. I had this MF back in early 2000.
Rob Lee:Yep.
Ryan Havers:Yep. Before anybody you know? And then all of a sudden, like, 5 years ago or whatever, everyone's got one of these. I was like, I had a first. Right.
Ryan Havers:Right. And the reason I got it is because I read that Michael Jackson recorded Thriller with it. Nice. I don't know if that's the case, but it's, you know, it's like a $400 mic. I was like, okay.
Ryan Havers:I can afford that. You know?
Rob Lee:Yeah. Like, the the mic that I'm recording through, it was a birthday present, you know, and it's a Shure mic. It's the Elvis mic. It's it just looks like one of those throwback joints. I was like, I like this a lot.
Rob Lee:It was $200. Most expensive mic I've ever used, and I've been podcasting 15 years, and I don't have a $400 mic. And, you know, when I see folks do, you know, sort of their lessons and give out their tips, you know how social media goes. Yeah. If you don't have a $1,000 mic, you ain't doing anything.
Rob Lee:And it's just like
Ryan Havers:No way. And you sound better than me.
Rob Lee:It's it's all smoke and mirrors. So I read that your work and we're definitely gonna dive into this a bit. Sure. You're working all from a lot of different influences. I saw anything from, like, Iggy Pop to Tim and Eric.
Rob Lee:How did how did these different influences, like, sort of show up in your work? And I have a second part to that question about I'll give you that space.
Ryan Havers:Okay. Yeah. I I like absurd. I like I like artists that use absurdity because I I really relate to absurdity. Yeah.
Ryan Havers:It's kinda like it's always been a coping mechanism for me, I think. Like, I remember when I was a kid and I saw Andy Kaufman on television. Yeah. I thought it was the funniest thing, and I was just like, this is so weird. Like and he's doing it on TV, and some people get it and some people don't.
Ryan Havers:And I I don't know what's going on, but I I like it. Yeah. Or like Emo Phillips. I'm dating myself again. And so, like, when Tim and Eric hit, I was like, oh my god.
Ryan Havers:These guys are crazy. Like, they're just there's like, I like absurdity because I feel like and and and, you know, you mentioned Iggy Pop. I think Iggy Pop is that, but in a musical sense. Sure. You know?
Ryan Havers:Like, he's got a song called I'm bored, and it's just, you know and the line is, like, I'm bored. I'm the chairman of the board. You know? And it's like I mean, come on. That's awesome.
Ryan Havers:That's amazing. Yeah. I think that the things that we do and the things that and I can only really really speak on our like, the American culture Sure. Which is a capitalist culture. You know?
Ryan Havers:I think the things that we really hold near and dear, I I think that is absurd. You know? Mhmm. I mean and that's why, like, I, you know, I kinda used ears with eyes as as this platform of, like you know, I have a song called reminders because I was my wife and I started a family, and I was getting home at, like, 9, 10, 11 at night, like, just working 12, 16 hour days. And she's like, can you put something you know, I was like, I'm sorry.
Ryan Havers:I'm not paying attention to the time. I keep missing it, and we have so much going. I keep missing the train. She's like, can you put something on your calendar that says, hey, start to pack up because my wife is gonna lose it because we have a baby, and I need help. Yeah.
Ryan Havers:So I set myself a reminder, and I thought to myself, that's fucking absurd. We work so we're so dedicated to work, and we just work, work, grind around the clock that we have to set reminders for ourselves to do basic human things. Yeah. Because we value work so much.
Rob Lee:Mhmm.
Ryan Havers:That's absurd.
Rob Lee:It's it's that thing where, you know, I have my my Apple Watch. It reminds me, get up every hour, move around. And I'm, like, oh, right. I'm so locked in to this computer and this setup, almost like I'm plugged in. I know I made the reference to the sci fi stuff earlier.
Rob Lee:Yeah. I was, like, I'm just sitting here engaged. So something normal, even, like, you know, this consideration of, do I have time to go to the bathroom? I have a meeting coming up. Yeah.
Rob Lee:Something as simple as that. Like, yo, you gotta go. You go. And I I I don't I don't know. It's you're you're so on point there with you know, there's a lot of things that we we value, and it's to kind of almost drain the batteries.
Rob Lee:Like, look, you got look, you might start working at 15. You retire, if you're lucky, at 65, 62, whatever. Essentially, you got 50 years of usability, then you can die. Right.
Ryan Havers:Right. And and yeah. And then yeah. And that's basically and then you have what? And it's not even 65.
Ryan Havers:Like, it's, like, seventies now. Yeah. You know what I mean? It's like but, yeah. You know?
Ryan Havers:And I and I was talking to some other friends of mine who, like, working in corporate America, and this one friend of mine was, like, yeah, I have to I have to put pee breaks into my calendar because if I don't, it'll get filled up with other meetings. So I have to schedule my pee breaks. I'm like, that is insane. Yeah. That that like, we're so, quote unquote, productive that we have to schedule basic human functioning.
Rob Lee:It's it's called, like, you know, corporate culture. It is sort of these these corporate norms, and I think you're and I'm I'm feeling a little itchy because it's reminding me of why I had to get out of that that set up. Like Yeah. You know, for the better part of the last, like, 13 years, I've worked around, like, higher ed because it's not corporate, it's secure, it has these different elements. But when it starts to shift into what feels corporate and I'm I can identify it pretty easily, I I have to, you know, I have to, like, try to do things to to shift away from it because I have that distaste.
Rob Lee:And, you know, like, I don't like cubicles, you know. I'm sure you have some thoughts on cubicles. I don't like conference calls or meetings. I'm sure you have some thoughts.
Ryan Havers:I love them now because my the stage show so it's me and it and it's it's, my friend Johnny, Taylor, who's the other half of Ears With Eyes. He does he does, like so I write the music, and I send him the tracks. And he's he's, like, engineer extraordinaire. He's, like, he just puts it all together, and he basically triggers everything. And then I can do my song and dance and, like, in in gyrate on stage.
Ryan Havers:But we set up, like, a cubicle. We have a cubicle wall, and and we set up, like, we're in an office. Yeah. And then by the end of the the show, like, you know, my shirt's off, and I'm, like, breaking the table. And and it it goes from, like, it goes from, like, this sort of, like, crippled corporate worker to, like, this feral sort of Iggy Pop type personality that's like, fuck this.
Ryan Havers:Yeah. Yeah.
Rob Lee:That's I get that's that's great. Now, I'm just visualizing as I'm talking to you, I'm just visualizing it in my head. That's great.
Ryan Havers:I'm like dad bod Iggy Pop, because there's no way I would ever be able to look like Iggy
Rob Lee:Pop. Yeah. I I keep my I keep my shirt on all the time. Someone was like, yeah, you should be like the birdcries. I was like, I won't.
Rob Lee:I won't at all, ever.
Ryan Havers:Oh, come on. I can see in your face. You work out. You have good bone structure. I have, like, a turkey neck, you
Rob Lee:know? Well, it's it's it's been an interesting year working out. So I but I think, you know, when it comes to something creative and I've I've definitely like, artistic. Right? You're you're on a stage.
Rob Lee:You have this performance art that goes along with the music that's that's sequenced, and, you know, it's a collaborative thing. It is a, it's booking, as we talked about a little bit earlier. It's all of these other elements that maybe fall outside of, okay, I get to be on stage and get it, you know what I mean? And I get to make the music. How does sort of the regimented nature of maybe, you know, I don't like the whole corporate America thing, it's not really your jam, But how does that structure, maybe some of those takeaways from being in that environment, kinda serve you as, alright, I can see where this is useful.
Rob Lee:I can see
Ryan Havers:Oh, yeah.
Rob Lee:Yeah. Talk about that.
Ryan Havers:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, look, I I what I'm commenting on is is how crazy corporate life can be
Rob Lee:Yeah.
Ryan Havers:And how it can burn people out, you know, which is what essentially happened to me, and so I write about it, you know? But I'm not against being organized and disciplined. I I mean, I think I think anything I think it's it's easier to be organized and disciplined when you love what you're doing.
Rob Lee:Yeah.
Ryan Havers:You know? I I think that or or you have a vision or a goal. I mean, you know, we don't I I, you know, I I do I do love it, I most days. I I can't remember the last time I was just like, I don't wanna do this. But so so when you're, like, working toward a goal Yeah.
Ryan Havers:You know, it's just like, you have a, you know, it's like you have a daily okay. I gotta reach out to these venues today, or I gotta put up a social media post. I gotta, like, work on the copy for that. You know? Oh, I gotta cut this video together from this live performance, and then I'll put that up.
Ryan Havers:You know? So it's just I think it's just, you know, I think being regimented. I think you have to. Anything worth doing, you know? I mean, I love the art the you know?
Ryan Havers:And there's also this sort of idea of, like, there's there's there's there's discipline stuff, and then there's undisciplined sort of like like like the creativity. Yeah. I just shoot from the hip. You know? I get something in my head.
Ryan Havers:Luckily, I feel lucky, and this is why I kind of I feel like I've I've always known that music is for me because I just get it in my head. Yeah. It just comes from where wherever. You know? I'm just like, oh, that's a cool beat or, like, or that's a cool sound.
Ryan Havers:I'm gonna try to make that sound, you know, or I get a cool line or or a title Yeah. Or just a phrase, and then I just start kinda riffing off that. And then there's, like, experimental time when it comes to creative. Like, I I think of it as, like, free play. Right?
Ryan Havers:Yeah. Like, just like a child who's playing with toys. You know? Like, I don't try to I don't overthink it any I used to overthink it. Like, oh, well, what about you know?
Ryan Havers:But I just usually, my instinct is what feels the best, and nets the best results from people who listen to it or see it, like, come to a performance. Usually, my instincts are pretty good for what I'm doing.
Rob Lee:Yeah. What is your relationship or your take on uncertainty? Like, do you see it as something that sort of helps drive your creativity? Is it, you know, there's a challenge in there to try to navigate it? And how is it, like, show up, like, for in doing this?
Rob Lee:There's structure. There's questions, but when it feels like the questions are a little too canned, it's improv time. It is time to just riff and change the order because I think things might fit differently better. And, you know, for 10 years of my 15 years as a podcaster, I did an improv podcast where it's just like we have some news stories. We're gonna talk about it, but literally, we haven't written any of this stuff down.
Rob Lee:And we're kinda playing Russian roulette with what stories we're gonna talk about. And that's what it was. It's like this story could be bad, but we don't know. So, you know, there's being comfortable with uncertainty. So for you, what's what's your take on it?
Ryan Havers:I love it. I kinda feel like I thrive off it. Yeah. Like, I I remember I found out early on, probably like, I don't know, like 5 or 6 years into playing music. The band I was in, we hadn't gotten together for months, and we had a show coming up.
Ryan Havers:And we were, like, just so unprepared for the show. And we just we just winged it. We played the songs that we know how to play, but but we kinda purposely played them. We took it as an opportunity to, like, embrace the mistakes. Yeah.
Ryan Havers:We brought brought props, and we made this whole, like, this whole thing out of it. I called it I called it the Hindenburg show because I'm like, we're gonna go down, we're gonna go down in flames. And it's gonna be glorious. And ever since then, I was just like, I love that. Yeah.
Ryan Havers:You know? Like, you can only be so prepared. And I think I think being prepared is great, and I think there's a time to take it seriously, and there's a time to ask important questions about what you're doing. Yeah. But I don't wanna be too prepared because I don't and and and it it's the same with writing.
Ryan Havers:Quick decisions, instinct. I pivot quickly when I'm writing something and recording it. And I I do it all at once. I don't I very rarely sit there and and with my guitar or whatever. Like like, I ears to the eyes, there's hardly any guitar on it.
Ryan Havers:Like, it's all it's like synths and beats and and sound design and random stuff. You know? So so a lot of it is just kinda like finding my way through. And I've I've learned, for me, that the more I try to revise something and edit it, it sucks the human out of it. It becomes this sort of homogenized thing that just doesn't kind of flat lines for me.
Ryan Havers:You know?
Rob Lee:I I hear you. It's you know, I I I I've I was describing, like, when I was writing the questions. Right? I was on the train coming back, well, going to New York and partially going coming back. And what I found because I felt like I was I lost something in in terms of, like, writing my questions.
Rob Lee:I was feeling like, to your your point, this feels, like, not real. It feels inauthentic. It feels, like, just kinda, ugh. And it's like it's I'm losing something in it that I'm not even interested and curious about, so I started just scrapping my questions. And early on, I I I would take so much from steal like an artist.
Rob Lee:I used to just get rid of my questions. I would delete the file after every 6 months, and I would just stack questions, like this is an interesting insight. How can I craft that towards this guest? What would they think about this? How does this fit for them?
Rob Lee:And maybe, you know, questions I'll return back to, but I would have this thing where I would get rid of them, and I found that more and more questions were showing up or this really isn't that strong of an insight. Sometimes it's just like you gotta be able to just lock in. I would put on, like, still like an artist, and literally I have the notepad in my hand right now. I came up with 40 questions on the train, And Yeah. Yeah.
Rob Lee:It's like I got hit with it. I'm like, oh shit, here, you know, here's the flush, you know, all of these questions. Yeah. And I've been able and fortunate enough to tie some of them in, and even work in things like this next question I'm gonna ask you, but work in things that are definitely me. You know, you you you listen to interviews or you listen to people, and you don't see any of them in it.
Rob Lee:It's almost like anyone can do that interview. Anyone can ask those questions.
Ryan Havers:Yeah. And you're, like, 800 episodes in. Right? So it's, like or over 800 episodes. So it's, like, it's and that's just with this show.
Ryan Havers:You said you were doing podcasting before that too. Right? So it's like, you have years of kinda honing your craft to find your voice. Right? Because it's, you know, it's there, but you have to just do it and do it and do it for it to to kinda, I I don't know, like, hone it, I guess.
Ryan Havers:Hone's a word, maybe. Yeah. I think that and this kind of, for me, kinda comes in like how I said, like, I didn't really have a vision that I was like, oh, yeah. This is me until later in life. Sure.
Ryan Havers:And I think it's because I started trusting my instinct. And I think in order to even have an instinct, at least for me, it's like I have to have a life that's been lived. Yeah. To to so that the instinct is even there. You know what I mean?
Ryan Havers:Yeah. Like, I'm always amazed at, like, a band like the Beatles or whatever. Any any young artist. You know? And it's like, they were doing that when they were, like, mid teens and teenagers?
Ryan Havers:Like, there's no way I had a vision like that. Right. Or or if I did, I didn't think it was good enough, and I didn't trust it. Yeah. You know?
Ryan Havers:So I don't know. That was I was kind of kind of all over the place with that. But
Rob Lee:That's a that's a that's a good point. Like, what have you you banked? We have this this thing here, and it goes back to and and I and I definitely know we can get into the weeds in this one, but sort of this pressure to always be making something that goes back to the corporate thing, the productivity, and something that's lost when it comes to artistry there. I hear it all the time when it comes to, hey man, you haven't had an album out in a while, whatever artist that's a bit of a recluse, or man, it's like 7 years between records. Can this person have some experience that shows up in their work versus just churning it out?
Rob Lee:It's a product, and it's less of an art versus just as a commodity. You know what I mean?
Ryan Havers:Yeah. And that's where the sort of you know, look. I comment, and and I say I use words like capitalist and capitalism, but I don't know anything else. I'm American, so I grew up in this. I don't know.
Ryan Havers:I I can't I can't say I mean, there are, really horrible things about capitalism.
Rob Lee:Sure.
Ryan Havers:You know? And and then I don't know. I wanna say there are some good things, and I think there are some good things. I mean I mean, you can make a living, but that gets into a whole thing. Right?
Ryan Havers:Because there's sociopolitic there's there's social issues there. There's there's all sorts of stuff. Yeah. Right? So, where was I going?
Ryan Havers:What is this? I think that this whole like you said, oh, art is a commodity. Yeah. I I think making art is is a beautiful thing. I think it's essential to humanity.
Ryan Havers:I think it's essential for life, and I think everybody should do it. Yeah. But we say we value it, but as a culture, we don't. Mhmm. Because what we value is money.
Ryan Havers:Yep. You know what I mean?
Rob Lee:Yep.
Ryan Havers:So I think that's why you have, you know I mean, you have that's why we have the starving artist. Right? Quote, unquote, starving artist. And that's why you have big name artists that have become sort of like, they become a brand. You know?
Ryan Havers:So it's like they have to sell other things, and and they have to do other things. They become this sort of entrepreneur. Right? I don't think there's anything wrong with that. But wouldn't it be great if, like, I I as an artist, I don't care.
Ryan Havers:I don't need to make 1,000,000 and 1,000,000,000 and 1,000,000,000 of dollars. I just like to be able to pay my bills Yeah. You know, and and and keep the lights on and and and make sure the family can eat. You know? That's I don't need we don't need a lot.
Rob Lee:That's that's the thing. Like and and that's a really good insight where, you know, when I I do this and, you know, I find, like, when I talk to artists, 90% of the time they're like, man, you get it. You're you enjoy it. You enjoy what you're doing, and you're very serious about it. And you're not taking yourself too serious, but you're very serious about what you do.
Rob Lee:And when I talk to folks that are more on that sort of cultural or creative economy, that that sort of side of things, it's how you monetizing it. It's not are you enjoying it. How are you making money from it? And I'm, like, well, I own my equipment. I own my home studio, so I think I'm all set, and it's this sort of cookie cutter, this is how you do it.
Rob Lee:And, you know, I see it all the time, as I was touching earlier with data, and, you know, we play the Spotify games, play all these different things, and you can just see that some of the stuff is is rigged, that anyone can pop up in a podcast. Anyone can sort of hack the algorithms to have that music seem like it's doing much better than it actually is, so I try to exclude a lot of that stuff and just ask the person, are you enjoying it? Do you like what you're doing? And I heard from you, you enjoy. You get to pop off and have dad bod Iggy Pop up up on stage.
Ryan Havers:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's that's it. And and it's weird. It's just playing and writing and performing has been a big sort of guiding light in my life for 30 years.
Ryan Havers:Yeah. So I've been doing it more longer than I've not been doing it. I started when I was 14. You know? So I just I I I've, you know, I've tried to quit because of how I, you know, I I viewed success and and how, like, I'm not I I haven't made it.
Ryan Havers:I was supposed to make it by this age or this time or whatever, and what's wrong with me? I'm just gonna quit. And, man, you don't wanna be around me if I can't do this. Like, what? You know, Lori, she's she's like, she can tell, like, if I'm in a bad mood.
Ryan Havers:You know? And she's like, when was the last time you, like, picked up your guitar? I was like, oh, yeah. It's been a few months. She's like, maybe you should do that.
Ryan Havers:Like, it's just I I it's who it's who I am at this point. You know what I mean? And it's just something that it's really a a part of my life.
Rob Lee:That's that's great. I I feel you, and I I find when I have those moments where, you know, at a point, you know, my high watermark in a in a week was 18 interviews, you know, and I did 6 in one day was sort of the high mark in a day and high mark week. Right? And they weren't the same week. So it wasn't like that 6th episode in a day was a part of that 18 episode week.
Rob Lee:They were different things. Yeah. And then I find, like, you know, I I did this talk, for creative mornings a couple years back, and, I got a lot of questions, and folks were like, so talk about this pace. Like, you're putting out a lot of stuff. Like, when are you taking a break?
Rob Lee:And that workaholic thing was there, and I was like, oh, right. I should take a break. What's a break? And realizing that, okay, you do gotta give yourself a little time to breathe and come back with some fresh perspective, but when you're in it and you love it and you identify with it, you know, I'm a podcast nerd. This is what I do.
Rob Lee:Yeah. And, this is my longest, most stable relationship. And when when I go into it, you know, that's what it is. But now I've made space to do other things that are connected, made space to do other things that are connected, whether it be dotted line, whether it be very intimately connected. The teaching thing I mentioned earlier, sort of these paid gigs, this travel that all connects to it because we do so many different things.
Rob Lee:You can't do everything. Like, there are times in the past, Doctor. Manhattan style, I would try to split myself to do multiple podcasts at the same time. It's like, you can't do that. You're bugging
Ryan Havers:because of
Rob Lee:it, because you're chasing it. But you know, at a point you have to realize, like, all right, maybe tone that down a skosh, but don't just take what feels like a hiatus because you identify with it so much. And, you know, that other podcast that I was referring to that I do, that's a different set of muscles. Yeah. My partner, she's like, you need to find an outlet to be able to do that because that's where your comedic chops come in, your pop culture stuff.
Rob Lee:Like, this is very much interview, and it's satisfying curiosity. And some of the comedic stuff comes in, and this next question definitely hits this pop culture thing. And so I have this thing, right? You know, I love the movie Verbal Cop. I love movies from the late eighties.
Rob Lee:Yeah. And, Robocop, Predator, all of this is always something. Right? And and there's a story about the, the writer, like, was it Ed Newmayer? It's just like this whole theme in the movie is baked in in the writing and then throughout the movie of, like, corporations aren't great.
Rob Lee:And his sort of hatred of his own day job. Yeah. As it relates to your creative work, and I think we touched on it, like, you know, what is the sort of outside of maybe money, but what insecurity, I guess, and insurance, but what is sort of the value of of a day job? Is it the socializing? Is it, you know, sort of those those different pieces?
Rob Lee:And I think over the last few years, some of that has has changed, more remote work and things of that nature. But what would you say are some of the values of being in the corporate sort of setting?
Ryan Havers:Man, that's a tough question. Good movie, by the way.
Rob Lee:It's a stellar movie.
Ryan Havers:When they, I mean, when when they when he gets shot up, I mean, with the, like, thousands of bullets or something. Like, he's just this. It's like they just he's, like, gone. It's crazy, which is why he becomes a RoboCop. This is true.
Rob Lee:The baptism by bullets is is wild.
Ryan Havers:Yeah. Oh my god. I don't I don't know. I mean, other than, like, learning new skills. Yeah.
Ryan Havers:Maybe having some sort of social socializing people. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think money, security, insurance.
Ryan Havers:But I I think I don't look. There's there's absolutely nothing wrong with working or having a job. I think, I just wish there was more like, think of it this way. Yeah. You are very passionate about podcasting.
Ryan Havers:Right? And, yeah, some people and and and and some people get paid and they get sponsored and this and that or or they get picked up by a company. Right? It's just wouldn't it be good if there was some sort of mechanism in place where artists could be artists and actually make money at it? And it and it wasn't like I have to have a day job.
Ryan Havers:You know what I mean? And maybe I'm I'm and I'm probably just being it's very idealistic. I know that's not the way the world works. But, you know, for me, like, when you know what you've wanted to do since you were a kid Yeah. And you're still grinding trying to do it Yeah.
Ryan Havers:Yeah. Well, first of all, you have to love it. Otherwise, why would you do it? You know?
Rob Lee:But
Ryan Havers:wouldn't it be great to just just ask the question, to not have to have a day job and just do that and and and be able to make a living at it. That's that's so for me, I guess, this is a question. A day job I haven't found a day job that is so fulfilling that it could replace music.
Rob Lee:Yeah. You
Ryan Havers:know what I mean?
Rob Lee:Yeah. I I do. It's I I've again, you know, as you you touched on sort of when you you find yourself, and I I I will share this. I think I've said this maybe once or twice in the 800 plus. It's been instances where I've tried to bring sort of this background, which, you know, is almost 2 decades really of experience in this particular area, and try to bring it into the corporate setting because of the whole funding thing, the the gap of of funding ultimately.
Ryan Havers:Mhmm.
Rob Lee:And I get burned each time. It's either suppress who you are, change who you are. We know how to do it better, and there's money involved, so what do you know and so on. And it it doesn't it doesn't work for me. It doesn't align.
Rob Lee:So I think at a point when I started understanding how funding works and having these these conversations and these interviews, just getting other folks' insights and perspective on the art cycle, the funding cycle, and all of that, I was like, the day job is my funder, and I was like, how can I make sure that I am considerate of this thing? This is my I don't have any kids. This is my baby. You know? Yeah.
Rob Lee:Yeah. So how can I be considerate and have that towards the front and nurture it, make sure I'm getting better at it, and all of that good stuff, while I'm able to make sure I have insurance, make sure I have those things that that you mentioned, and I think what you mentioned is absolutely right? It's to kind of keep you full enough that you can pursue that dream, because if you Like you said, if it's something that you have interest in and you've been chasing for a very long time, it's it's a dream. Not in a dream that's unobtainable, but it's a dream. It's a desire.
Ryan Havers:Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's what it is. I think, in a nutshell, a job is a means to an end for for, I think, a lot of people.
Rob Lee:Yeah. You
Ryan Havers:know? Even people who who don't necessarily aren't grinding with something on on the side. Yeah. You know? I I don't, you know, I don't wanna say I don't know I don't know if this is true or not, but, like, I don't I don't think many people want to work as hard as they are working.
Rob Lee:Preach?
Ryan Havers:Just just just to just to pay the bills.
Rob Lee:Yeah.
Ryan Havers:You know? Because because in in many cases, people are just working there. They're just working all the time Yeah. Just to keep the lights on. You know?
Ryan Havers:And, I don't know. The older I get, like, I just want a balanced life. Yeah. You know?
Rob Lee:So I I want to move into sort of this last real question, and, you know, I'm curious about this. Can you tell us about is it weird?
Ryan Havers:Oh, yeah. Yeah. So speaking of monetizing.
Rob Lee:But I think it's community. It's community is what you're building.
Ryan Havers:Well, yeah. And that's really kinda where it came from is, well, I make weird what I think is bizarre music and the and the and the stage show is is bizarre. It's it's let me say nontraditional. Unconventional. Unconventional.
Ryan Havers:Yes. And so, you know, I've met a few other bands. There's a band called Top Button. There's another band called Zed Star 7 in my area. Another guy, Preston Spurlock.
Ryan Havers:So I'm finding people who are make unconventional music. Another, artist, Midnight Dental. This is all up in in New York State, New York City, Hudson Valley, area. And so we've kinda found each other, and we've been booking shows together. But I'm like, I know I know there's bizarre people out there that make bizarre music.
Ryan Havers:You know? And I personally I finally you know, I don't know. I it takes me a while to it's like, come to, like, an awareness of something sometimes. I'm just like, oh, I really like outsider music. Like, I love Wesley Willis.
Ryan Havers:I love Jan Deck. I love, you know, I don't know. There's the list goes on and on. I don't know. I'm drawing a blank right now.
Ryan Havers:But, I love conceptual music, like John Cage. I love Sonic Youth. I love, you know, there's there's some people around the Baltimore area, like Dan Deacon, kinda makes weird weird stuff. And Future Islands and JPEG Mafia. Nice.
Ryan Havers:You know? There's there's these sort of underground people that that make noise music, experimental music, sound collage, anything you could call unconventional. You know? And and and that also just slips into mainstream stuff. Right?
Ryan Havers:Like, production techniques and found sound and and stuff like that. So, for me, it's like, well, maybe I could build a platform where, you know, I can teach people you know, that's the other thing. The the barrier to entry to do some of this stuff, it's all pure creativity. Yeah. You don't have to, like, learn an instrument for years.
Ryan Havers:You know? And and there are very affordable, cost effective if you have a computer, there are free DAWs, free digital audio workstations. You know, there's plenty of free plug ins and free sample libraries and, like, you know and it doesn't have to be pristine, like, it came from a studio. In fact, like, if it sounds even, like, crappy or, like, quote crappy, I love the way that sounds. I like it when things sound lofi or distorted or or just not polished.
Ryan Havers:Yeah. So I'm like, let me do a video series teaching people about certain genres and outsider artists, and then I'll have writing prompts that'll help them along to to kinda stretch the boundaries of their creativity. Because that that's the other thing. Over the years, I've I've I've listened to a lot of these bands and and artists, and I'm just like and that's influenced me. You know?
Ryan Havers:Yeah. It's it's helped me to kinda go past just by listening to certain artists, you're it it it changes you. You know what I mean? It changes you to you're like, oh, I can do that? Yeah.
Ryan Havers:I can't do that. But no way. Yeah. That guy's doing that. Like, you know, like Wesley Willis.
Ryan Havers:You know? Now, you know, he was mentally ill. He was he was schizophrenic. But his music is so honest and raw, and and you can tell that he was just so in that moment when he was making it. Yeah.
Ryan Havers:And to me, that's that's what art should be. You know? So, yeah, I'm I'm building this platform. I call it WEIRD, and it's spelled it's like lowercase w, capital e a r Yeah. Friday.
Ryan Havers:Yes. And then lowercase d because it's about I can't get away from this ears thing. It's so lame. But, yeah, and it's, it's basically an online course, that's about unconventional music and sound.
Rob Lee:I love it. It's, no gatekeeping here. I I love that. And, you know, being able to, quote unquote, share the dark arts, and, you know, that's you know, we may we may have to talk about that. I may have to do my own version of that for for podcasting because there's a lot of goofy courses out there that aren't particularly good, and I'd rather give out the real stuff, to help folks along.
Rob Lee:So so thank you for for sharing that, and that's kinda it, right, for the real questions. Yeah. But I got 3 rapid fire questions for you.
Ryan Havers:Sweet.
Rob Lee:I feel like you're old, you know, let's let's not overthink it. Let's just go into them. So here's the first one. Yeah. What was the first show or concert that you went to?
Rob Lee:Like, one that, like, that sticks out from your youth? If if you don't remember the first one, which one that sticks out from your youth?
Ryan Havers:Van Halen. It was, like, 1995. It was the balance tour. I it's one of the reasons I became a guitar player, was Eddie Van Halen.
Rob Lee:Shit.
Ryan Havers:I I I just he's he he's he was an amazing guitar player.
Rob Lee:That's a great answer.
Ryan Havers:Yeah.
Rob Lee:Do you have any superstitions or routines related to your work? I know some people, they go into their space. I've done it before. I put on, I put on a candle, like, just to, you know, kind of bless the space. Part of it is because I eat a little bit too much protein, and, you know, sometimes it's it's a little dicey in here.
Rob Lee:So I can't invite anybody in now. I gotta put this candle on. But for
Ryan Havers:you, what
Rob Lee:is do you have any routines or superstitions as it relates to your work?
Ryan Havers:Jeez. I don't I don't think so. No. I don't.
Rob Lee:Okay. Okay.
Ryan Havers:I can't think of any.
Rob Lee:Because I'm I'm curious about creative habits. Let me when I when I I read this book, and it was talking about, like, you know, this is what Dali would do in the morning. This is what Andy Warhol would do in the morning. I need to have literally 3 eggs and 4 pieces of toast or Dolly. I need to sleep with a spoon in my left hand.
Rob Lee:And I don't know. Maybe it helps them with their process or something along those lines. But I'm very curious about the, the quirks and the idiosyncrasies of, like, artists.
Ryan Havers:Well, I could I guess maybe more of a behavioral thing, but, like, I don't like to spend a lot of time on on what I'm doing. Yeah. I like to get it done, like, when it's hitting, And I don't like to think or edit stuff. I like the raw. This is you know, to to in in my experience for me, for what I'm doing, that's the best version of it.
Ryan Havers:Yeah. I don't do multiple versions of things. I like to just just go, get it done. Also, I just I start to feel itchy when it's taking too long. Just like, this is ah.
Rob Lee:So so what you're you're what you're saying is we won't be fortunate to get the, ears with eyes like dirty versions or maxi 16 minute cut or certain tracks.
Ryan Havers:They're dirty as they are. They come dirty. They they they what you see is what you get. The re release version? Warts and all, man.
Ryan Havers:In fact, I wanna do I wanna do something that's like and I might do this as a module to the course, but the 1 hour recording
Rob Lee:Yeah.
Ryan Havers:Like, just you have 1 hour. Mhmm. Just go, and then it's done. And then put it up on SoundCloud or whatever.
Rob Lee:That's it. That's a good prompt. My final that I taught with my, students of podcasting, I was, like, well, you know, we kind of worked up to it, but I was, like, you guys are recording a podcast today. You gotta do a 20 minute podcast. Yeah.
Rob Lee:You have these elements in it, but the rest of the stuff, how you get there, that's on you, and we're not really in studios. We're recording in unfamiliar spaces, but the acoustics are good enough to get audio. Have at it.
Ryan Havers:That's awesome.
Rob Lee:And it was just, oh my god.
Ryan Havers:I don't
Rob Lee:know what it is. Like, I'll be around. So here's the last one. Here's the last one. And this falls into that vein of, routines.
Rob Lee:Right? This is slightly different, because I know I know you have something for this. What is your go to meal?
Ryan Havers:My go to meal? I have to remember to eat, honestly. Especially what if I'm if I'm in a creative zone in writing, hours will go by. And then, you know, I'll sit back and be like, oh, man. I've been I've been going here for, like, 4 hours, and I I haven't eaten lunch or or whatever.
Ryan Havers:Just so GoToMeals as a creator or just in general?
Rob Lee:Just in general.
Ryan Havers:Lately, it's peanut butter and banana sandwich.
Rob Lee:You know what? That that actually slaps. There's good macros on that one.
Ryan Havers:Just because just because it's quick Yeah. And and it's and it holds me for a little while.
Rob Lee:Peanut butter will do that for you. Definitely, I I make a smoothie, which is is
Ryan Havers:Oh, yeah.
Rob Lee:I make a smoothie, and it has each of those it has peanut butter, jelly, and bananas in it, and it literally just tastes like a a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. Just delicious. Oh, yeah. All for a while.
Ryan Havers:Oh, you know what else is good? Just slicing some apple, and I I don't use, peanut butter. I usually get, like, the what my, kids call the nature kind. It's no sugar. It's just peanuts and salt and oil.
Ryan Havers:Yeah. And, just cut up an apple and and dip it in there, and it's like it's almost like eating peanut butter and jelly with the fruit. You know?
Rob Lee:Yeah. Yeah. That's good. I like that. I like that.
Rob Lee:And as you can tell, I'm getting hungry. It's almost dinner
Ryan Havers:time for me. Yeah. Me too. I gotta I gotta get on the stick and and,
Rob Lee:cook. I hear you. So let's close out there because we're 2 busy men and used to get on get your own things. So, you know, as we we close out here, 1, I wanna thank you for coming on and spending some time with me. This has been a joy.
Rob Lee:And and 2, I wanna invite and encourage you to share with the listeners where they can check you out, social media, website, all of that good stuff. The floor is yours.
Ryan Havers:Oh, awesome. Dude, thank you so much. I love this podcast. I I would you know, if you if you come up to this, I'm sure you'll be up to New York City again. Hit me up.
Ryan Havers:You know? We'll we'll grab a bite or something. You know?
Rob Lee:Sounds good. Alright.
Ryan Havers:But, yeah, it's just ears with eyes dot com, and it's got all my social stuff on there. Instagram, I'm pretty I'm on there quite a bit. That's, ears with eyes dot music is my handle. And, yeah, you can stream my music right on my website. And if you wanna there there's a thing for weird on there if you're interested in updates about the class.
Ryan Havers:It's in development right now, but, I'm doing some free downloads, like, infographics or, like, presentations on certain artists and checklists on on writing and and setting up your studio and stuff like that.
Rob Lee:And there you have it, folks. I wanna again thank Ryan Havers, ears with eyes, for coming on to the podcast. And I'm Rob Lee saying that there's art, culture, and community in and around your neck of the woods. You just gotta look for it.
