Welcome to the truth in this art, your source of conversations at the intersection of arts, culture, and community. I am your host, Rob Lee. Thank you for joining me. Today, I'm excited to be in conversation with my next guest. He is a New York Times bestselling author, illustrator known for his books for both children and adults, and is the creator of the popular podcast Creative Pep Talk.
Rob Lee:His work titles include Invisible Things and A Pizza with Everything on It, and he inspires and encourages creativity. Please welcome, Andy j Pizza. Welcome to the podcast.
Andy J Pizza:Hey. Good to be here.
Rob Lee:Yeah. So, so I wanna go into to this question, you know, as we're going into this interview, what have you, and, when I think of your work, I think of color, I think of exploration, I think of whimsy, I think of fun. And even looking at the visual, like, even in the background, I love when people have, like, their space, and I just see like, I literally see over your shoulder, there's a smiling face on one side. There's a muppet right there. And Yeah.
Rob Lee:It's fun. So if you will, and I couldn't help but smile, right, in doing the research by the way. Nice. Could you describe your work and the style of your work, if you will?
Andy J Pizza:Yeah. I mean, the style of my work, I think it's funny. There's definitely a maximalist quality, and you'll see that also, and you're seeing in the background max pure maximalism. I think it just comes from being ADHD, feeling like, really understimulated by existence. It's kind of a it's one of those things, I think, any kinda condition that anybody has, any experience that people have, there's a lot of, you know, public opinion of what they think that means.
Andy J Pizza:Yeah. And ADHD is the same where, obviously, it's also down to the individual's experience. There's a lot of different ways of being ADHD or an an infinite ways of experiencing that. But, for me, and I know a huge part, in the research is just about being understimulated. And so I think there's a combo of maybe 2 things that make my work loud and maximalist and fun.
Andy J Pizza:And I think it's 1, the understimulated part of my brain just wanting to, like, cook something up that is just 100% jazzed. I'm all about that.
Rob Lee:Yeah.
Andy J Pizza:And then the other part of it is just maybe another little weird part of it is that I have color deficiency. So I'm guessing, like, also, I think even it's so weird. Like, even, like, color is probably dull to me, generally, because I have red green color blind. I'm not color blind, but I have, like, this deficiency. Sure.
Andy J Pizza:And so I think maybe, like, my whole life is, like, turning it up. Like, let's go to 11, and, you know, you can, commiserate with my wife and kids because, you know, I can't really when I go out of town, they're like, man, it was quiet. It was it was nice and quiet for a minute. So so, yeah, I think that that's kinda what it is, maybe. A lot of explosions of color, action, stuff like that.
Rob Lee:So and thank you for that. Yeah. As as I I like like when people are just, you know, they're they're themselves and they're turned up. And Yeah. You know, I I find, like, especially when you you have almost the the audience, especially if it's someone that's close to, you know, your your wife, your your kids, you know, with with my partner, literally on the weekends, once she gives me sort of that, you should just do your thing.
Rob Lee:She's like, come on, do your thing. And I'm always running this. I got not a dad, but it's a lot of dad jokes that flow out of me. Everything is a Yeah. Everything is a bit.
Rob Lee:Yeah. And, she's like, are you done? She's like, I know I know you have, like, 5 more. I was like, what do you mean? She's like, I see it in your head.
Rob Lee:You're you're you're Just let
Andy J Pizza:it out. Just just do what you have to do.
Rob Lee:Yeah. And, you know, I I have a I have a friend. We were talking about sort of reining in our stuff at times. I'm an Aquarius, and my my partner, she talks about it as well. She was like, you have these, like, grand ideas.
Rob Lee:How do you bring them in? How do you bring them them down? And especially in in doing, like, this podcast and, like, maybe articulating ideas, like, when I'm thinking of doing an interview, and and and and maybe it's just more of just the thought comes to mind right now. When I think of doing an interview, I'm like, I can sit down for 2 hours with someone, and it's just like, hey, man. Let's roll it.
Rob Lee:And, you know, it's like not everyone wants to do that. So it's maybe, alright, it's 30 minutes. Maybe it's 45. And it's just like I have these really these interesting questions I'm, like, just curious about, and it's just wanting it to be a conversation. So it's trying to, like, bring that down, but also still be authentic me and the curiosity and so on.
Andy J Pizza:Yeah. I mean, you know, this is a topic and a question that I I genuinely think about all the time, partially because, a lot of the you know, my own creative practice and then doing a podcast about creativity. I think a lot about, like, creative identity, who you are, how you get it into your work, kind of the individuation of that. That's a thing I I am just always thinking about. I'm also thinking about it through the lens of ADHD and this idea of masking, you know, trying to show up as a presentable version of yourself that's appropriate to these different areas.
Andy J Pizza:Like, the it's so it's a topic I think about a lot because, also, I'm, you know, some of my creativity is, like, free flowing, and then a not a lot of it is, like, oh, this is something I like, my drawing is something I learned to do to kinda meditate. It's not really as natural. It's more like medication. And I think that I'm interested in that tension because I don't actually think you should just go through life being the most full unadulterated version of yourself, you know, disregarding everybody else's sensitivities and preferences.
Rob Lee:Sure.
Andy J Pizza:Like, I so that's a complicated thing because I think, being able to I like the Dolly Parton quote that says, art is knowing who you are and doing it on purpose. I love that. And I also think that there's something to do with knowing how to contain it when you need to because that's being a healthy adult. Like, I I think there's something interesting about that. And then, ultimately, the reason why I think about it quite often is one of the main frameworks that I see life through philosophically is, like, storytelling.
Rob Lee:Sure.
Andy J Pizza:Part of that was informed by, like, the hero's journey. And I really think the hero's journey is this cycle that we go on forever. If the hero is at home, leaves home into an extraordinary world, and then returns home. And I think it's basically, what that is is your comfort zone and then your discomfort zone. And you're cycling through that forever learning who you are.
Andy J Pizza:Because in your comfort zone, you might feel comfortable, but you're probably not accessing your full self. You don't know until you've, like, gone to the edge of that. You know? I don't know if that's what you're talking about, but that's what I that's what I heard. Like, this is a delicate, like, tight rope of being yourself while also loving, respecting others, while also not being fixed in your mindset of what you already is and still being curious about what you could be.
Andy J Pizza:It's like, it's a really interesting, yeah, journey for me.
Rob Lee:No. No. I I think that that's that's absolutely what I'm here's the thing. It's good when you have a person on it, you let them cook because you end up getting these other pieces. I know, like, okay.
Rob Lee:That was that was some jones right now. I was, like, sitting here. I was like, you know, you run the pot.
Andy J Pizza:Sorry, man. You opened up a topic that I you know, it's just my jam. I couldn't help it.
Rob Lee:No. No. And and that's and that's one of the reasons why, like, I think how I became aware of you. I'm blanking on which audio book it was, and I was like, I'm gonna reach out. It may have been, like, death of the artist or something.
Andy J Pizza:Yeah. Yeah. With, well, I can't remember his name, actually. It's
Rob Lee:escaping me.
Andy J Pizza:Yeah. Yeah. Derezowitz. That's what it is. That's what it is.
Andy J Pizza:Yeah.
Rob Lee:And then I was just like, alright, let me let me dive in. Let me explore and, you know, really getting caught on exam. I do this, like, you know, I've I wanted to be an illustrator when I was younger. Mhmm. And, you know, you talked earlier about Ninja Turtles, what have you.
Rob Lee:And I'm definitely gonna ask you a question about that later. Okay. You know, that was sort of, like, what I wanted to go into and, you know, illustration and and so on. And say, oh, there's no future in that, and, you know, I believed it. And I just went into business, marketing, and all of that stuff.
Rob Lee:And now, in doing this for the better part of 15 years podcasting, macroly speaking, and doing this particular podcast for the last 5 years, I'm trying to find ways not to get bored to satisfy that curiosity, and sometimes it's stretching the boundaries. I'll give you an example. Yeah. Don't know how to swim. Right?
Rob Lee:Right. Yeah. And I was working on some podcast, at the waterfront here in Baltimore. And, the people who organized it was like, could you do this podcast on, like, a small yacht, like this this one of the sponsors? And we do a podcast in the middle of the inner harbor in Baltimore.
Rob Lee:Wow. There's water coming in in the boat, and it's giant boats around us. I didn't miss a beat, and the person driving the boat was like, you're really good at this. We got a little chop going on there. I was like, this is this is what I do, and Yeah.
Rob Lee:To to the point, after I wrapped it in, you know, I was like, we got that. We got a good interview there. And just feeling exhilarating and feeling that that dump of, I guess, the chemicals in one's body Yeah. Like, wow, that's exhilarating. Let's do it again.
Rob Lee:Whereas beforehand, I'm shaking, like, I don't think I'm gonna have it's not gonna I'm not gonna make it.
Andy J Pizza:Yeah. Yeah, man. I mean, I think that speaks to you know, I deal with my own, levels of anxiety that kinda come and go, and I think that, I really I don't think it's a panacea for it, but I think that, passion is such a such a powerful antianxiety tool. You know, when I go into a social scenario Yeah. Again, I hate to harp on the, ADHD thing, but it's such a huge thing in my life.
Andy J Pizza:And one of the things that makes it difficult to do is, like, small talk is really difficult for me. Not even like a judgmental way. Like, I I noticed, you know, some people I know that really cherish small talk, and I really respect it, actually. I think it's a I think it's a art, and it's, a beautiful, like, connective tissue between people, but I can't do it. I just don't I I can't do it.
Andy J Pizza:So when I go into social situations, I have a little bit of social anxiety around that. Yeah. And, just like you said, like, getting into that passion zone, getting into that, you know, groove like you're doing in the podcast, like, that's that's key.
Rob Lee:I'm on the same wave, and I have a business degree. Right? So it's Yeah. Like, hey, man. Network.
Rob Lee:Work a room. I was like, I don't do that. And I'm very, like, tall, and I've I've I've lost some weight, but I'm like a big dude. So it's just like a like, a giant grizzly bear saying, hey, man. Get a business card?
Rob Lee:It is a lot like that.
Andy J Pizza:Yeah. That's funny.
Rob Lee:So could you talk a bit about, like and I was curious about sort of, like, you're making picture books that you touched on. Right? Yeah. And so creating books for, like, kids and adults. So what what are sort of the the key differences there in in your approach maybe to putting together your books, your approach to maybe speaking to the audience and the storytelling that storytelling that goes on in there?
Andy J Pizza:Yeah. I mean, I think that, for me, the thing that is the most interesting piece of it is the similarities between them. And that's just for me, I'm thinking about story in the same way. And the the the the key difference, I really think, is when it comes to kids, I'm more thinking through the lens of fiction. And when it comes to adults, I'm thinking more through nonfiction.
Andy J Pizza:And the there's kinda I mean, there's a million different layers to a story, but the 2 layers that I think about most are, like, the symbolic layer or the metaphor layer, and then there's what it's about. So, like, this is the point of the story. This is the kinda universal idea that I'm trying to get at. And so you have, like, okay. Toy Story is about toys.
Andy J Pizza:That's the symbolic layer. But underneath, it's about friends. And it's about how, the weird ways that we go about trying to get friends and, and how that can blow up in our face and and and why it just matters to be a good friend instead. And so there's, like, there's always those 2 layers, and I think different storytellers do really creative things with both of those. But when I go when I'm talking to when I'm thinking about kids stuff, I'm usually thinking, what's the I start with the the meaning first.
Rob Lee:Yeah.
Andy J Pizza:And then I'm trying to find, the symbols that can really illustrate that. So one of my favorite story guys is a guy named Brian McDonald. He has a book called Invisible Ink. And, he talks about how, the Iron Giant, which was a a really classic great kids movie, is such a good illustration of this where the symbolism is emanating from the point of the story. So this story is about how you get to choose who you wanna be, and a great way to really put some extreme contrast on that is to tell the story through the symbolism of robots that are supposed to be programmed.
Andy J Pizza:Right? And so for me, I even wanna take it further than that. And what helps me is, like, getting common language between the symbol and the and the meaning. And so for me, I like to think of that story like it's about defying your programming. Right?
Andy J Pizza:And then when I go into the adult stuff, I'm thinking usually through the flip of that where I will collect the symbol stories. So I will collect the stories from my real life. Yeah. And then I'll try to figure out what do they mean or what could they mean. And then, you know, find like, yeah.
Andy J Pizza:And I think, you know, if you're if you're doing a nonfiction storytelling thing, like This American Life or, you know, like, kinda what Mike Birbiglia does or Hannah Gatsby, I think that's probably the way it's working is you're starting with these real things
Rob Lee:Yeah.
Andy J Pizza:And then you're kinda trying to see what they could symbolize universally.
Rob Lee:Yeah.
Andy J Pizza:And that so those are the 2 different ways I think about it, but, ultimately, they're the same thing just kinda flipped.
Rob Lee:That makes sense. That makes sense. And thank you for that. Like, again, I'm I'm sitting here and listening to you. You you break it down, and I'm gonna be stealing as I go back through and edit this podcast.
Andy J Pizza:Hey, man. Go, man. This is good. I mean, this is my stuff that I just keeps me chugging. Like, the I I was gonna say it's good stuff, but it's good stuff for me.
Andy J Pizza:Like, it makes me feel great. I don't know if it's good to anybody else, but it makes me it's kinda what keeps me ticking.
Rob Lee:No. I mean, as the person that would be someone else, it's it's great.
Andy J Pizza:Right. Thanks, man.
Rob Lee:So I wanna hear a little bit about collaboration. Right? And you you were touching on sort of, like, the, I guess, the collab the the collaborative nature, you know, earlier of, like, when you're having conversations with people, you're connecting with people and kinda maybe limiting, you know, maybe a part of instead of being the more blown out exaggerated version, sort of the, this is the you know, we're around polite company version.
Andy J Pizza:Yeah. So
Rob Lee:Yeah. Could you talk about that in the scope of, like, collaborations with, like, some of these major brands? I see Target, Warby Parker. I'm like, usually have Warby Parker glasses on. Yeah.
Rob Lee:It's a box and and the like. And sort of, like, you know, they you're working with them. They're reaching out to you. You know, there's, you know, sort of, we like your work. We like what's in it.
Rob Lee:But how do you meet, you know, there in the middle of doing what you do, but also meeting that that that need for the client?
Andy J Pizza:Yeah. I mean, the way that I think about it is, I I think that creativity is such a it's the ultimate mind game. Like, that's that's literally what you're doing is you're playing a game with your mind. And the game for me is, how do you access the room you need to access when you need to access it? So it's like so you need, at the start, you need to access the part of you that's really open, nonjudgmental.
Andy J Pizza:As you move through, you have to figure out literally how to change your brain state into being your own critic. Like and then there's a 1,000,000,000 other pieces to it. Right? There's all these different elements. And I think that to me, you know, some of the creative researchers talk about how there is, I can't remember what the phrase is off the top of my head, but it's something about how there's always an element of, unpredictability and creativity.
Andy J Pizza:It's like, you can't I wish I could remember what it what the phrase is, but creative researchers talk about this and it makes tons of sense. Like, if you've ever been creative, at all, you know that sometimes it works, and other times it doesn't work. And that and, you know, I think craft, Christophe Niemann, who's a great illustrator, talks about how if you're gonna be a professional, you've gotta be you've gotta always know how to be good, but great is a thing you can't plan for. So you can be good consistently, but great is a thing that happens when you show up consistently, but it doesn't happen on command. And so for me, most of my collaborations with brands, you know, if I'm getting paid to do illustration in that capacity, most of that stuff I'm pulling from my personal work.
Andy J Pizza:And so I think the answer to that is the key is having a creative practice, that it is a practice, that it is a habit. So I make episodes every week. I make, for a long time, I was making episode art every week for years years. I have all these different writing practices. So I'm always making stuff, and often, most of that stuff is just stuff I own.
Andy J Pizza:You know, literally, like the copyright. I own it. Nobody's licensing it. And so usually, when a client comes, I'm pulling on something that felt great that I made, out of the 100 things I made that were good or okay. And be and I think that's really key because I just think it's kind of impossible to, to be great every time.
Andy J Pizza:And I think you see this I kind of imagine this has to be a little bit what, like a writer's room is all about where you put 10 people in there. They're all making stuff. All of them know how to make good stuff, but, you know, every week, a different person accidentally got a great thing. You know? So you just you're just kinda like playing an odds game.
Andy J Pizza:So, yeah, that that's how I think of it. Usually, I am pulling from something that I've made recently for myself. Yeah. And then sometimes sometimes it just, like, kinda comes together, and I'm making something fresh. And, usually, you know, the best thing is when you really don't care.
Andy J Pizza:Like, it's true. Like, it's when, you know, it's not that you don't care, if it's good. It's just I think the again, the mind game thing is I really, really think that the pressure is not the creative energy you wanna be in at the start. It's not to say that you can't perform under pressure. I think there are ways in which it's useful or it can be.
Andy J Pizza:But I think most of the time, you need a part of the process where you are detached from the outcome and you're invested in the process of, like, let's have fun. Let's make something. Let's see how many of these things I can make in a in, you know, and just, like, it doesn't matter how bad they are. Like, that kind of mind game stuff.
Rob Lee:Yeah. I I that's that's a really good distinction, really good point. And, you know, when I see and go going back to just, you know, that example I was providing earlier about being on a boat, and I find, you know, in the last year, I've been able to teach, you know, podcasting to high school students and college students, which is
Andy J Pizza:That's cool.
Rob Lee:Something I wasn't expecting. It's very cool, very rich, rewarding. And, and I and I've been getting across this idea of the right tools for the right job, getting those reps in, you know, that you're comfortable and you're competent in what you're you're doing. And, you know, and I found that, you know, in talking about that and speaking on, I had to revisit it myself because I was crafting out and carving out time for all of the things that I need to do. And I found that I wasn't recording this regularly, and I was like, gotta get into at least putting a mic on, at least just doing something.
Rob Lee:And I approach what I do here, and I always run into a instances where someone in fine arts will tell me what I do is not important or creative or art or anything along those lines. And but I approach it in that way. I Yeah. I I had a conversation with a cinematographer and, no, actually, it was a he's a he's he's, like, a visual artist, and he was touching on, like, his practice. And I'd mentioned something about watching a movie, and it was, I think, Mo Better Blues and watching Denzel Washington's character practice and that whole thing.
Rob Lee:I was just like, that's how I view what I do. I have to put in this time, whether it's working on the questions, whether it's listening to podcasts and just kinda taking from it, taking notes. When I when I got on the train, a couple weeks ago to go to New York for a convention, I was writing these questions. I was researching you on the train and taking that time just to have my mind in the right space because I noticed when I'm not doing it in the right way and I haven't spent the right amount of time on it, kinda sucks when I get back to it. So it's just like you gotta be in it, you know, to what degree it is.
Rob Lee:And it's like as you're you're saying, sometimes it's like, okay. I can be good. I can, you know, freestyle. I can go off with these reps, but there are some instances where I could be great, and I'm almost hunting for those, searching for those instances.
Andy J Pizza:Oh, yeah. Yeah. Definitely. And I I love what you said about the way you treat and think about podcasting. First of all, screw anybody that doesn't think that podcasting's art.
Andy J Pizza:Like, I grew up in the Midwest, and I definitely, have spent times there have been moments where I met fancy organizations and, you know, important art schools and all that stuff. And I I didn't I wasn't introduced to the idea of high art until I was probably in my mid twenties. Like, I didn't even under I didn't even know there was a distinction between high art and low art. And I it's not I'm I'm not a super, like, I don't like thinking black and white, so I'm not saying that there isn't purpose for thinking in those terms. I think there probably is some there's probably some benefits.
Andy J Pizza:There's probably some good stuff of why society has developed that way. But I think that there's as many good reasons to completely throw that in the trash from time to time. And I I personally think, that, you know, my dad is an accountant. He's he just retired, and he he he was a business leader, and he was extremely creative in his storytelling and metaphors and ways that he moved throughout that job. Like, I and I don't know where this quote comes from, but, it's this idea that anything you treat as art will be.
Andy J Pizza:There's a quote I someone has to look that up because I can't remember who said it, but that is I really think that that is a, an extremely powerful thing. And I did the same thing with my podcast too. Early on in my, like I said, I I did it. I've been doing it for 10 years. In the first couple years, I was juggling that and trying to get into picture books.
Andy J Pizza:Prior to that, I was mostly just doing the client work that you're talking about prior to the podcast. And for a minute, the podcast took off, and the picture books were just brick wall. Could not get in. Could not figure it out. And I just had to I had to make a decision.
Andy J Pizza:Like, I only have so much extra time. I'm gonna have to spend the next couple years just thinking about the podcast, and maybe I'll come back to picture books. And the only way I could get my psyche to get on board with that was to be, like and the podcast will be art too. That'll just be different kind of art. It's just, you know, doesn't really matter.
Andy J Pizza:And, actually, you know, for me, all of it is it's been really useful to see that all of it storytelling one way or another. So my, I had an epiphany early on in my public speaking, podcasting thing where I was like, man, I'm so obsessed. I'm more obsessed with the metaphors and the stories that these people are talking about on stage. Like, am I not an illustrator? Like, I have an identity crisis.
Andy J Pizza:And, and then I heard a public speaker. It was probably a TED talk or something. And then being like, let me give you an illustration. I'm like, it's the same freaking bed, man. What in the world?
Andy J Pizza:And I just realized, like, oh, it is all storytelling. And so I I think that's it's good to have that, you know, to be really romantic about the core and then completely unromantic about how you apply it because it's really more about the time that you find yourself in, you know, and what the needs are and what you have available and whatever. It doesn't really matter if it's sculpting or podcasting or whatever.
Rob Lee:So, I wanna I wanna move into this because it is it's great that we kinda, like, backdoored into, you know, this question or a couple of questions I have around Creative Pep Talk. Yeah. So so what brought it about, like, as far as, like I know that there is a lot, you know, based on what you've discussed, like, this is this is for you. Like, this this helps, you know. But, you know, was it filling a void?
Rob Lee:Was it curiosity? Was it like, okay. I lost the bet, and I was like, alright. You gotta put the mics on.
Andy J Pizza:Uh-huh. I wasn't losing a bet. I don't think anybody was, inviting me to do this. And, actually, I think that, you know, kind of a core idea of mine is the biggest opportunity for creativity is the the hardest creative problem to solve, like, and the least inspiring. Right?
Andy J Pizza:Like, it's not hard to get creative if Nike invites you to do a 10 story mural. It's not like that's like, oh, that's play day. That's just having a good time. Like, you don't even have to dig that deep for that. That's just having fun.
Andy J Pizza:But what is really requires, a lot of creativity is when nobody's asking for this, nobody wants it, nobody knows that they that it should exist, the creativity that's required to inspire yourself to do it and imagine doing it in such a way where you'll be interested in it, let alone anybody else, like, that requires just a tremendous amount of creativity. And I think, you know, that's that was one of those circumstances where nobody was asking me to do a podcast. And the podcast I wanted to do was really this intersection between creativity and career and what I think of as creative practice. And at that time, if you can believe it or not, that wasn't a thing that people really were talking about. I'm not saying it didn't exist, but it wasn't popular to talk about.
Andy J Pizza:In fact, I thought this might get me ostracized from the creative community, even thinking about this. So it really came from I did a talk, just a local, like, storytelling thing that felt just it was just it just felt like the next right thing to do. It just felt like, there's something something happened. And, you know, it's great to have, like, a partner in crime where they can kinda validate or invalidate your experience, like, when it needs to be invalidated. And I and my wife was there, Sophie, and I was, like, hey.
Andy J Pizza:You know, I did this talk, and I told this story. And when I walked out, I thought, when I walked out, I thought, oh my gosh. Like, I feel like something happened there. Like, that was something different than anything I've experienced creatively. And sometimes I would go through that experience and ask Sophie, like, what do you think?
Andy J Pizza:Like, you know, I'd make a picture, and I'd be trying out a different style of noses and be like, what do you this is next level. Right? And she's like, okay. Now I don't even know what's different. You know, that that right?
Andy J Pizza:That happens. You need that. You need that. And so, but this time, I came out, and I was, like, hey. I think, like, that was something.
Andy J Pizza:And she was, like, yeah. That was something. That was I what happened? That was different. And, like, I could just feel that.
Andy J Pizza:And so, yeah. I think it was a at the time, I was like, maybe I'll just, like, pack up everything else I do and just do this full time. And, and I but I had kids, and I thought, I don't think I'm allowed to do that. I think that's a bad idea. And so I I instead of doing that, I tried to, you know, anytime I try to anytime I come to a crossroads, I try to remember that creativity is like a combinatorial thing.
Andy J Pizza:And so anytime you're like, it's either this or that, it's almost always both. It's like, how can you do both? And so I wanted to tell stories, but I was an illustrator, and I just thought, how can I do both of those? And create a pep talk was, like, a way of creating a portfolio of talks to kinda gather gain trust that this is something I could do. Yeah.
Andy J Pizza:Yeah.
Rob Lee:But I'm I'm, you know, I'm just it's really great hearing that because, you know, as I'm in this sort of phase, I'm being transparent here, which is not a thing that I do too often. I'm okay. But, just just sort of, like, I I'm thinking through that and and doing this this podcast, like, you know, just hit 5 years a couple months ago and, you know, 800 plus episodes and really just rocking and rolling with it. And, you know, thinking about sort of what this next season is and using sort of this curiosity, the anthropological thing, the journalist thing. And just I'm into I'm into weird things.
Rob Lee:I like putting people on to to other things and kinda stretch the idea and the boundaries of what it looks like and what creativity looks like, what art looks like, and those sort of intersections with community because Yeah. You know, this this pod came out of, you know, just kind of trying to prove someone wrong who may have said something about the city that I didn't like. And and it's afforded me opportunities to kinda revisit things that, as I said earlier, wanting to be an illustrator, comic book illustrator specifically. Yeah. And, you know, being able to revisit through doing this, being able to connect with folks like you and gleam off of you, being able to connect with all types of artists.
Rob Lee:And then, like, I could do this, like, that you were describing with, like, that TED talk. And Yeah. You know, I'm gonna be in your neck of the woods, and later in September, I'm going to, Columbus Crossroads.
Andy J Pizza:Oh, cool, man.
Rob Lee:And that came from connecting to somebody on a podcast.
Andy J Pizza:That's awesome.
Rob Lee:And they were like, will you come and speak on this panel because obviously you can moderate things, and I'm like, oh, right, I do have those skills.
Andy J Pizza:That's awesome.
Rob Lee:It's it's great and not something that I thought I could do. I thought it was just gonna be desk job until the end, and then, you know, it's just that and not really satisfying, but now it's like living multiple lifestyles and having, you know, seeing those instances where they serve each other, where sort of the IT and the the the data background serving sort of the administrative stuff was one must Yeah. And sort of this side of stuff helping with the storytelling and what that data looks like and helping to interpret and tell a sexy story.
Andy J Pizza:Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. And I think that both and mindset is the creative mindset. And for me, one of the things, I never shut up about on my show is we've all heard this idea of, like, you gotta have a niche.
Andy J Pizza:You gotta have a niche, however you wanna say it. I can say it both ways
Rob Lee:Niche, please.
Andy J Pizza:As you can hear. And and and so you gotta you yeah. You gotta specialize. You gotta have a unique selling point. Actually, I think that is true.
Andy J Pizza:However, I think that, I I think that it can mean a lot of different things. And usually or when I was starting out, I was thinking that meant, in my group of illustrators, I had to figure out, like, what's my competitive edge, man. Like, how do I, like, draw better or cooler? Like, what you know? And you start getting into these place where you're like like, what it really is the quantifiable difference between this one and that one?
Andy J Pizza:And it really becomes just kind of impossible to calculate or or, embody. And then what I realized later was it was much easier for my unique selling point to be the fact that I am an illustrator in the world of podcasting. And so these, like, these kinda hybrid scenarios, I I also think about things like Hamilton. I'm like, okay. Look.
Andy J Pizza:I don't I can't critique, Lin Manuel's raps. What I can't because I just don't know enough about it to be critically minded. I like rap. You know, I grew up on the stuff, but I don't know, like, what's the difference between a good rap and a bad rap, really. I don't know.
Rob Lee:So I
Andy J Pizza:don't know. I don't know. Maybe he's the best rapper. I don't know. But I'm guessing not.
Andy J Pizza:I'm guessing that it's something about this hybridization of musical theater history, rap, and, you know, he's not doesn't have to be the best rapper of all time. He could be the best rap theater guy of all time. And now you have this really interesting thing. So I feel like your story illustrates that well where all of a sudden, in this niche of, comics, you're the person that knows how to do the panel. You're the one with the history of that.
Andy J Pizza:And even more so, like, often I'll talk to an illustrator who, I'm trying to get an illustration. I'm like, okay. Tell me about that. It's like, well, you know, I made this huge mistake and got my master's as a psychologist and that I'm like, okay. Hold on there, pal.
Andy J Pizza:Hello. Can't you write articles about psychology and illustrate them? And now you're writing the articles and you're illustrating. Now you're doing doing both in the New York Times. Like, do you know how interesting that is?
Andy J Pizza:Do that. Or I'll meet politician. I'm in a politician. She's like, yeah. I want my, city council.
Andy J Pizza:I'm like, on the board, but but I really just wanna do illustration. I'm like, hello. Like, we need, like, political experts in the illustration space and vice versa. Do you know how many people in the political space need illustrators? Like, there's just really interesting things you can do if you can be creative about it.
Rob Lee:Yeah. That that is such such a good point. That's such a good point. So I got I got 2 2 more real questions I wanna hit you with, because I'm I'm very curious about this because also with what I was was touching on as far as, I guess, the the point I was getting at was, like, looking at this arc of interviews, the series as almost a portfolio of, like, I can do this and at this volume and at this these different people because, you know, that first 10 years of podcasting, I was just doing it in my insular group of friends. We were just shooting a breeze about movies and pop culture and having a good time doing it.
Rob Lee:Sure. Kinda like built out that background and got some, you know, success with it and a lot of enjoyment. But I was like, I wanna do something that's a bit more close to the heart, and I think that's serving folks. And, you know, it just happened to coincide with, you know, right before the pandemic. You know, that's when I started this, and folks were inside and, you know, this that selling point of, come on and share your story how you how you wanna share it.
Rob Lee:Be you. So that that initial question that I ask, you know, I can do the introduction, but giving the folks the opportunity to do their introductions, you know, I'll talk to folks that look like me, that come from different groups and different communities, and they're often told that you have to hit these markers of who you are, and it's about more identity and kinda checking a box versus something that feels real. Mhmm. And I think that's the point that I've been kinda selling off of, and that's the point that really kinda matters to me.
Andy J Pizza:Yeah. Yeah. That totally makes sense. And I think it kinda goes also into your thing of create your thing you were saying about creating the portfolio of this thing where I've found for me, you know, they're in a creative practice, I think there's really, like, 3 core components, and they are the, the people discovering what you do. Yeah.
Andy J Pizza:Then there's the building trust with those people, and then there's the sales. It's kinda just that's like the business side of it. And I think that middle bit, the trust, like you said, it can be a lot of people think of that means having the awards, having the standards, hitting these markers, whatever. But the people that are real about what really matters, you build trust with those people by doing a good job. By them listening to the show and thinking, oh, man.
Andy J Pizza:This guy, like, knows what he's doing. He knows how to get the right stuff. It doesn't it's not, you know no. I'm not knocking getting awards, like, getting a Webby or signal award or whatever. Like, those things can be really useful, and and I think there's a place for that.
Andy J Pizza:But, ultimately, knowing the people that you're trying to connect with and knowing how to having the taste to be able to deliver the goods on that front, that's how that's what it's really all about. And then when you're doing that in the process, you're happy too
Rob Lee:because
Andy J Pizza:you're like, this is why I'm doing it. I'm doing it to do the good stuff. Yeah.
Rob Lee:I mean and and I I here's the funny thing about it. Like I said, again, letting, you know, Andy j cook over here. You've answered my 2 questions, so thank you, sir. But, no. No.
Rob Lee:No. It but it is it is that thing where, you know, inevitably and I'm gonna move into my rapid fire questions because you you answered them. But, you know, the the thing that I encounter more often than not when those opportunities present themselves and trying to justify what I do and talk about why it's valuable, you know, it's never, yeah, I've done this, you know, and I'll put these different markers there, this many episodes, this many people, and so on. And I was like, that doesn't matter as much to me, but when I'm walking throughout the city and, like, yo, Rob, man. Good to see you, bro.
Rob Lee:Love the podcast. That is much more valuable than any grant, any sponsor, any funding. It's being able to do the thing like this, you know. And I always joke about this podcast is blind dating with creatives. Yeah.
Rob Lee:And it's, you know, don't really know anyone that you kinda go through as you touched on. Yeah. I like the work. Let's let's do it. I would love to be on.
Rob Lee:And that's that's the thing that, you know, is mostly enriching for for in doing this podcast and being able to keep doing it too.
Andy J Pizza:Yeah. And the other thing, you know, the other thing that came up is don't be ashamed to put your best foot forward. I think you know, I know. What matters is the work, the quality of it, whether it has the sauce or it doesn't, what you know, whatever that might mean to you. Yes.
Andy J Pizza:But I also I have to remind myself a lot because I'm so obsessed with the essence of the thing that, you know, I always think you shouldn't judge a book by its cover, but you should also know that people do. That's what they do. So, you know, have a good cover. So, you know, and in that email, like, yeah, drop the awards and whatever. It it doesn't have to mean anything to you.
Andy J Pizza:Doesn't have to. But just realize, like, you know, if that's what it takes to get in the door, whatever. Play the game because as long as you're coming with the good stuff, then it doesn't really matter. You shouldn't just shoot yourself in the foot just to prove a point.
Rob Lee:You know? Yeah. That's a that's a really good point. A really good point. And I'm again, like I said, when I relisten to this, when I I mean, like, alright.
Rob Lee:Let me listen to my own thing. It's just like use it's like getting half my own supply a little bit.
Andy J Pizza:Yeah, dude. I say that all the time. That's a dude, that's one of my things. It's getting high on your own supply. That's the whole thing.
Andy J Pizza:That's I'm telling you, like, take I have a whole rant about taste because
Rob Lee:Yeah.
Andy J Pizza:The whole idea of, I think, creativity, the The idea of, like, striking something that's timely and timeless, like, something that feels like, this is good. I think it requires a sensitivity. You can't really quantify it. You can only feel it. Yeah.
Andy J Pizza:So, like, when you're doing it, you're having to taste as you go. You're having to get high on your own supply. You're having to make the podcast that you wish existed. That's because you can't quantify it more than that. You just know, like, oh, that's I don't know.
Andy J Pizza:It's something like this thing, you know, like, and that's how that's a good stuff, like, that you're dude, I love it. I love that you said that.
Rob Lee:Love it. So let let me hit you with these rapid fire questions.
Andy J Pizza:Alright.
Rob Lee:The first one is super hokey, but I gotta ask it. You already know what it is probably.
Andy J Pizza:Oh, is it about my name?
Rob Lee:Yeah. It is about your name. What does Andy enjoy on his pizza?
Andy J Pizza:Oh, man, dude. I mean, I can never get look. You know what? Every time I eat pizza, every time, I'm like, man, I really like pizza. And I think, what is wrong with you?
Andy J Pizza:Of course, you do. You gave your safe selfless name. But, yeah. Pizza I mean, I love I love a a a great cheese pizza. I love a great pepperoni pizza.
Andy J Pizza:If I'm going, like, fancy, I wanna have, you know, the Neapolitan kind of wood fired, and I want I want the grape marinara, the tomato sauce. I want, mozzarella, And I want goat cheese, jalapenos, probably pepperoni and maybe even hot honey drizzle. Like, that's Yeah. That I mean, wow. I can't and I might even put some arugula on it just to go all the way.
Andy J Pizza:I'm getting hungry.
Rob Lee:So you're you're listening. The way you described your pizza is very similar to, like so, yeah, my my arch is out there. It's it's it's fully on display. That pizza
Andy J Pizza:maximal. That is, like, maximal flavor.
Rob Lee:Yeah. I mean, as a as a person, my go to used to be a a, it used to be kind of vegetable oriented, but, you know, it was thin crust with, gorgonzola, broccoli, and, spinach, extra cheese.
Andy J Pizza:I can I can get into that for sure? That's what I mean, my only thing is I like, a good blue cheese Yeah. I love. But every once in a while, you get one, you're like, oh, this is not okay. This is too far.
Andy J Pizza:So it's a risk, but sometimes I tempt fate with it. You know?
Rob Lee:It's a gamble.
Andy J Pizza:It is.
Rob Lee:But
Andy J Pizza:it can be so good. You know? 100%.
Rob Lee:Yeah. So I I I must ask this one because you touched on it earlier. Which which turtle? Who who's who's your turtle?
Andy J Pizza:Michelangelo. Has to be. I mean, I think that's just I'd love to say Raff. I'd love to have some other dimension to myself, but I don't, and it's just Michelangelo. What about you?
Rob Lee:It's it's funny. It was Leonardo. My brother's Michelangelo. It was Leonardo for a very long time. And one day he told me, he was like, you know, you're just Raphael.
Rob Lee:Right? I was like, what do you mean? And he was like, everything is a bit. And it was like and he would sing the song, the theme song, and I was like, alright. It just said
Andy J Pizza:That's hilarious. That's hilarious. My brother's wrath. So, you know, I get it. I get the dynamic.
Rob Lee:I'm the older brother. So
Andy J Pizza:Yeah. That's my older brother. So there you go.
Rob Lee:This I'm I'm curious about where art is in their habits. So, generally, for you, how does your day start? For me, it's screaming, but how does your day
Andy J Pizza:start? Screaming. Oh. Say screaming. Yeah.
Andy J Pizza:You know, they say don't start with a scream, but it's fine to start with a screen. That's fine. I yeah. That makes sense. I for me, every day every day, this is this is one of the weirdest I mean, I have plenty of weird qualities, but one of them is, I every day, I start with a bath.
Andy J Pizza:Okay. Every day, I write. Most of the stuff I write is in a bath. I you know, my mom used to take loads of baths too, and I think it's I've read that it actually increases your dopamine, so it's probably an ADHD thing like hot water. So I just kinda, like, charge up there like I'm a Dragon Ball z character in, like, a time chamber just kinda going wild.
Andy J Pizza:I'm just, like, trying to get all the dopamine that I can to get to the day. And so I do that every day, and I like it. It's kind of, it's like an introspective space, and it helps me kinda get my mind right before I'm dealing with people too. Yeah. And I read.
Andy J Pizza:I usually read every day too a little bit.
Rob Lee:Yeah. The the the real thing is on the screen when I wake up. The real thing is, I I over the last year, I tried to get up and do something active and try to build up those wins. You know? Like, you know, I'll do, like, a 2, 2 and a half, 3 mile run-in the morning.
Andy J Pizza:That's great.
Rob Lee:No one's outside. So I'm Yeah. At a time where I can really think, and it depends on what I'm listening to. Because part of the the process for me, I'll have on either, you know, some awesome Cleon or something along those lines. Yeah.
Rob Lee:My notepad on me, and I'm like, there's gonna be an insight that I'm gonna pick up because my mind is clear before I have to deal with people.
Andy J Pizza:Love it.
Rob Lee:So I I get it. Best well, actually, no. Worst worst piece of advice you were ever given?
Andy J Pizza:Man, that's a great question. I'd I'd never heard this one. Worst piece of advice I was ever given. Man, I'm having a I don't dude, I'm unpracticed for this. And I think but I think it's a great you know, it kinda reminds me of, and this is this is beat me both wasting time so I can figure out what my answer is.
Andy J Pizza:And it's legit. It's legit because I think it's one of my favorite things. There's a podcasting guide called Eric Newsom who wrote a book called I think it's called make some noise. It's something like that. He was I think he was a NPR guy.
Andy J Pizza:Mhmm. And a great book. It's a really great book. And he one of the things he talks about this is one of my favorite this is actually, like, how I if I'm stuck for a story
Rob Lee:Sure.
Andy J Pizza:This is how I will access an idea for a story is this question. And he says, ask people what do other blanks get wrong. So people like you, so me, like, what do other illustrators get wrong? What do they get wrong about illustration? And that opens up a story arc because it's about, like, a character going through a change.
Andy J Pizza:Yeah. You know, going from this wrong philosophical point of view to a to a a better one. So it kinda reminds me of that. You know, I think that, yeah. I I I don't know.
Andy J Pizza:I can't pinpoint who said this to me, but I do think I spent the first from years as an adult, 18 to 25, with the with the a a philosophical worldview that was handed to me that said, who you are, like, what you are, what people are, they're a thing to overcome. They're a thing to repress. They're a thing to escape. They're they're a thing to run from. And I actually genuinely, with all my heart, believe the opposite.
Andy J Pizza:And, actually, I think that even the the research is in my favor in terms of, like, psychology. Like, there is so much power in believing that you're not something to overcome, but something to cultivate. That the things that are not working for you, that's not something that's wrong with you per se. It's something about, oh, you haven't figured out the right way to channel that, or the environment you're in is making it challenging to be you. You know, for instance, like, we're not bad because we are obsessed with sugar.
Andy J Pizza:Yeah. The we're it we're in a bad scenario where we evolved to gorge on sugar because it was so rare. Yeah. You know what I mean? And so it's not anything wrong with us.
Andy J Pizza:It's that, oh, we haven't figured out how to cultivate who we are in this environment. So I think for me, especially as an artist, it's kind of the worst advice you could give them is, you need to, like, escape who you are. You need to be something else, because, you know, that's all you got as an artist is is your identity. And it's gonna have, and I say it this way, in one of my podcast series, in one of the in some of the talks I give, you know, art is self expression. You're never gonna make what you you're never gonna make art that you love if you hate the thing that it's an expression of, which is yourself.
Rob Lee:Yeah.
Andy J Pizza:Right? You can't make art. You love and hate yourself. And so, yeah. I think that that's probably and I think a lot of people go through life believing that and also advising people about this is how you, you know, pull yourself up and, you know, defeat self.
Andy J Pizza:Yeah. I don't I don't buy that.
Rob Lee:That's that's good. And I it's it's relatable and, you know, in this nearly 800 it's coming up on 800 interviews, you know, I've heard different pieces of people getting sort of yeah. You know, you just gotta do what everyone else is doing, and, you know, you know, you have to get rid of what makes you unique and all of that stuff. And it's just like, no. No.
Rob Lee:No. I just shake I just shake my bald head. No. But thank you. That is that's that's beautiful, and I think that's where we could we can close out on sort of the the podcast.
Rob Lee:So there's 2 things I wanna do in these final moments. 1 Okay. I wanna thank you for coming on and spending some time with me. This has been a true treat. Definitely
Andy J Pizza:for having me.
Rob Lee:Yeah. I really appreciate it. And and 2, I wanna invite and encourage you to tell the folks where to check you out, social media, website, podcast, all that good stuff, please.
Andy J Pizza:Yeah. Go check out the Creative Pep Talk podcast. Been doing that for 10 years and and still going, I think, strong. And, also, you can find me on Instagram, Andy J Pizza, and I'm also on Substack.
Rob Lee:So there you have it, folks. I want to again thank Andy J Pizza for coming on to the podcast and spending some time with me. And I'm Rob Lee saying that there's art, culture and community in and around your neck of the woods. You just got to look for it.
