The Truth In This Art: Stories That Matter

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Rob Lee: Welcome to The Truth in His Art, your source for conversations connecting arts, culture, and community. These are stories that matter, and I am your host, Rob Lee, except no substitutes. Today, I am thrilled to introduce my next guest, a Washington, D.C. D. Bred and Virginia-based visual artist who critically examines the lives of black women through her innovative visual art practice. With a strong foundation in interpretive, exhibit design, and architecture, she focuses on their representation in popular media, exploring themes of visibility and identity. Her work brings powerful narrative to life using familiar objects and texts. So please welcome to the program Veronica Jackson.

Welcome to The Truth in THis Art. Thank you. Good to be here. It's good to have you on.

Now, granted, this is an audio podcast, right? But I must admit, and I must point out, I want to show appreciation for you also wearing your glasses. You know, I like when people put on the spectacles.

Veronica_Jackson: Well, I have no choice. I can't see what that's like.

Rob Lee: I like that that's the response from people. Because some people will throw on the contacts these new jacks. They'll put on the contacts and act like, look, your eyes are weird. It's like, mine's are. Mine's are very weird. My partner, she always tells me that whenever I take my glasses off, my eyes disappear.

So I was just like, that's tough. So I've never gone to contacts. Maybe if this podcast blows up, maybe I'll just be a contact guy. I'll have big veneers. I'll just do the full, get the new hair, the full starter kit. Okay.

Veronica_Jackson: Okay. So bad he comes in.

Rob Lee: Oh, look, look, I already said I was 6'4 when we were talking earlier. I got to have the full package.

Veronica_Jackson: All right. So I'm putting on my better glasses so I can see even better.

Rob Lee: This is the first. We didn't have a wardrobe change. We had a spectacle change. I love it.

Veronica_Jackson: That's a good chance. Okay.

Rob Lee: So, you know, as I like to start off with, this is a storytelling oriented podcast and really do to the real thing. And I think where that starts off is inviting the subject, the guest in this instance, you to introduce yourself in your own words. So if you will please, the floor is yours. Sure.

Veronica_Jackson: So my name is Veronica Jackson and I'm a visual artist and I'm a visual artist whose foundation is based on an architecture background and a museum exhibit design career. So I say a lot in talks that I give that the exhibit design and architecture were the, are the foundation of my visual art practice. And I came to visual art late in life. So I'm also like emerging in a way, but at the same time as a mature person, I have stories to tell that I used to tell other people's stories as an exhibit designer. Sure. But now I have given myself the permission as a visual artist to tell my own story.

Rob Lee: I love that. I love arriving at whatever the interest is. There's no like that timeline. There's, you know, always really, you know, I've said this here before, like, you know, my earliest sort of art memory is probably like sketching. Like I want it to be an illustrator.

I don't do that. I'm doing this sort of media thing, this, you know, the art of conversation, if you will, which I don't even know of really in art and I struggle with it, but I pursue it artistically. But if it's there as an interest and you're pursuing it, it just makes sense. It just lines up. Yeah.

Veronica_Jackson: You follow your heart, right? Because for so many of us, especially people who have color, we weren't able to follow our hearts, right? We had to, we were limited in the amount of information or even the amount of opportunities that were afforded to us. So, yeah.

Rob Lee: And I think that's a good sort of transition point to go into this sort of next part of the question, the introductory question. Could you tell me about the first time you were exposed to art? What do you recall about that experience? Well, an early time because, you know, sometimes it's like, was that the first time? I don't know. Maybe it was. Maybe it wasn't. Right.

Veronica_Jackson: Actually, my first time that I remember was in elementary school and in an art class. And my mother had a lot of albums at home. And so I brought Isaac Hayes chocolate chips album cover. It's a class to basically replicate it in a drawing. And so I remember I did that and my teacher was like, oh, that's kind of boring. I'm like, what, you know, what? It's like, what was the assignment? You know, create a piece of art from something that exists. And so that's what I did. Now, granted, I was like, what, you know, elementary school, eight, nine years old, maybe younger.

What did you expect? You know, if you look up at some next Picasso or something, I don't know. But that's like the first memory of understanding what art is and how much can you really understand as an elementary school student, right?

Because I was replicating something that existed that had a visual kind of effect on me. But art is so much bigger than that. And I think that I wonder how they're teaching it in elementary schools now because art is culture, right? Art has a story behind it. So I'm hoping that they are putting that other dimension, showing that other dimension of visual art and culture in schools now. Not sure.

Rob Lee: That's great, though, kind of recalling those, that image. I looked up the album cover, of course, and I was like, all right, I was like, this is definitely one of those things I feel like it's in every, like, parents like crib of a certain era. It's like, oh, yeah, yeah, I remember that one.

Yeah, that's definitely one of those. It's like super black. Just his face is like right there and it's stark. It's just like photography for albums were a little different than and they hit and it's something that's lasting where, you know, frankly, you see this chocolate black man on his cover.

This is like, okay, okay, yeah, that sticks out. Right. Yeah. Memorable.

100%. So when I look at your background, you were touching on it a bit. Could you elaborate a bit more on how your experience as a visual artist, public historian and coach producer kind of shaped your perspective on social justice issues? I see that that is part of your background as well. Like I see sort of macroleague speaking, social justice as a sort of threat and a theme in the work and of interest. So if you will. Sure.

Veronica_Jackson: So social justice, you know, is such a nebulous term in a way. And in some ways I guess that's good because each artist can bring to it, you know, define it in the way that you do it. And for me, the social justice is the freedom to explain the visual art element in a way that is accessible to anyone who wants to embrace it. For so long art has been treated like this esoteric element, right.

Only the especially initiated can have access to it. You know, the first museums, that's why museums look like temples on the mount, right. Big long steps, right, up on a hill, right, this whole kind of monumentality.

And this is where all these precious valuable things that someone else has given value to, right, are kept and then still exist in some way. Look at the metropolitan in New York. I think the admission fee is like $30, right.

So it becomes prohibitive for people, but the Met and Moment, all these museums also have days where you can pay what you wish. So, okay, that's fine. But I'm looking at the history of looking at art, right. So then when you talk about, when I talk about the social justice, it really is making art accessible, available, understandable to anyone who wants to live with it, look at it, be a part of it, make it, right. The other thing, elaborating on my experience as a visual artist and a public historian, these positions are important to me because, and I explain them as an, I study historic and contemporary culture, right. So the stories that I tell usually are based in some kind of historic or autobiographical piece, my history, my grandmother's story is in one of my major pieces that I did. So this whole element of, you know, understanding what the story is, and it's always based in fact too, right. So that's the public historian piece. Sure. I am telling a story, sometimes a very little known story in a way for people to grab onto it, to understand it, to look at that story and say, oh, this is how I can relate to the story. Why this matters to me?

Rob Lee: That tracks, you know, I have this, I have these conversations. I use the term rarefied, you know, like it's inaccessible in that way. And, you know, there's maybe one description of this podcast where I was using the word democratize. I was like, oh, I don't know if that's quite me, but I think trying to make it. I don't come from an art background. You know, I, you know, talked a little bit earlier about some of my earlier interests and so on and being around it and how I approach things. But in some ways, I struggle with you, probably some of my face do a thing there, but being being in a spot that has some degree of authority around it. So I'm protective of that, of folks coming on and sharing their story authentically.

And I find often with that sort of rarefied nature, with that, that piece that you touched on with someone else kind of determining the value of the merit of one's work. I'm like, I don't know if that's quite it. I don't want to be a, I don't want to be a, I want to be a gatekeeper of a thing.

I perhaps want to be a really bad goalie. And like, I'm just going to let everything through, but have some discernment, of course. But, you know, I think like it, you're, I think it kind of, it doesn't allow everyone and to be to experience and have that exposure to it.

There are things as a six foot four, 250 pound black man. I'm like, you're going to the opera? It's like, yes, because I'm cultured and I was experienced to these things. I'm interested in it, but it was that early exposure. And I find a lot of times folks don't get that unless you're kind of putting it out there or making it accessible.

I, I like that you've mentioned MoMA. I recently got some tickets. I was like $30.

And I was like, fine, cool. I'm already going to take the L going up there, not the L train, but going up there on the train from, from Baltimore. And just like, I'm just going to do it because I don't want to miss it. And I find that there are weird conversations on who can see art, who can be around it.

And it's a bit of a FOMO that happens. Sure. Sure. Yeah. And, and I think like when I do this, right, like I have these conversations with folks and I think it's almost the director commentary to their story in some ways. And a lot of times I've gotten advice. You should put it behind a paywall.

Everybody shouldn't be able to get it. And I was like, that feels really weird. Share your authentic story. But I need to be, I was like, that sounds about right for certain people. But that's not really what I'm interested in. Right.

Veronica_Jackson: Well, that's a capitalistic mindset. Right.

Rob Lee: And maybe this is just a failing business. Who knows?

Veronica_Jackson: Right. Right. But, you know, the paywall is like everything is about money. Right. It's like you must earn something from this. And it's, you know, capitalism will be the death of humanity. So. Let's clip that.

Rob Lee: Let's keep rolling that in there. Yeah. So one of the other things I see, you know, in doing the research is your work critically examines the lives of black women who make, who mark and make space, if you will. What does that mean? And why is that theme like so important to you? I know you were touching on a little bit, but let's explore a little bit deeper.

Veronica_Jackson: Sure. Sure. So it's Mark, claim and take up space. Oh, please. That is what I am. Have I revised my art statement to include not just Mark, but also to claim and take up space, meaning that they make space for themselves. You know, they are seen, they are heard. And they take up room. They create space that is either physical, spiritual, metaphorical, but is that element of being visible. My work also speaks about invisibility of black women.

Right. So this is why I want, I say, Mark, claim and take up space because we're making the invisible visible. We've been here for so long and have been totally invisible. I make work that shows that black women exist, shows historically how we've existed. And at the same time, showing everyday things that we do that have been devalued and invisible eyes, but bringing it to the surface so people can understand they can look at their own prejudice. Like my grandmother's devalued labor, you know, saying that a housewife is not doing work. It's like, really? You know, that's work inside the home.

We need to start really calling to that. So it's looking at the mores of this society, unpacking them. And as I say, bringing it up to the light so they can burn clean, right? This whole element of like, let's relook at these elements that have devalued people for so long. So for instance, I have a piece called Blacksist where I focus on 13 understudied women from the 1850s. And one of them is Anna Julia Cooper. And she is the only black woman, she is only woman that has a quote in every U.S. passport. Right?

I saw your face like, who knows this? Right. And I think she died at 106.

Right. So this one was amazing, but very few people know her story. And so that's, I see that that's the public historian to me. That's the messenger in me. That is the interpretive designer in me, the storyteller.

And I think the more that we understand the value of black women historically, you know, maybe the more we can write some things that are just wrong in our society and especially for black people. Yeah.

Rob Lee: And see now, now you're going to have me going down a rabbit hole later. So thank you for giving me work to do later, more depth. And because I like to learn and not do what the social media says we should do. Discover, you know, I discovered this new thing and she's like, it's not new. You just learned it.

Veronica_Jackson: Dive a little deeper. Exactly.

Rob Lee: So in social media or more macroleaf speaking, more popular media, how are black women presented in 2026? I mean, that's a really elephant in the room sort of question, but I want to lobby it your way.

Veronica_Jackson: Well, it's so funny. Cause when I saw that question, I was like, I don't know how to answer this question, you know, because it's relative, right? So in 2026, and I saw it went online and I just typed in black women 2026. And a lot of images that came up were like of women of Hollywood, right? Women who were successful. It's not pulling up the everyday woman.

It's not pulling up the mom and her kids going to the grocery store, right? So we still have this kind of element on social media or popular media of who are the people we will present? Who are the people that show up when I Google black women in popular media in 2026? Cause popular media does not mean it's popular. It's just the media that's out there, right? It's newspapers, it's social media, it's on, it's television.

It's anything that is it's media, right? So yeah. So there's that piece. And then there's, then I look at like the 300,000 black women who lost their jobs over the last two years, right? So that's another element of how black women are presented in popular media. Media.

I'm looking at the Harvard University president who got fired, right? And all that crap. That's, that's another black woman in popular, popular media and how she's being portrayed. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah, go ahead.

Rob Lee: Yeah. I think like one piece of it when we think about sort of the social media being a mix of it, right? And that kind of maybe drives because that turns into that's the model. That's how we're going to do things.

And it's algorithmic driven, right? And you were touching on it as relative and you see things like my feet and I try to refresh that feed every so often when I start seeing a little bit too much of this, I don't, I know black women. I mean, I'm, you know, I'm in a relationship with a black woman. I was like, I don't, I don't, I don't think she's like, I was like, she's not like this or, you know, or the people, my mother's a black woman. It's like these, these people are not like, like this. And I like that you touched on like it's the Hollywood piece of it, right?

There's this sort of idealized version of it that I think your average person that's just going through and just seeing these images over and over again, they're going to look at that as some source of truth and not just like this is a randomly selected curated thing.

Veronica_Jackson: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, so I didn't watch the SAG Awards the other night, but I am curious. I need to go back and look at it and curious to see how many black women in that audience had natural hair. You know, right.

Rob Lee: And, you know, and I know that that is, is a thing. And I'm just always very curious. And I get, especially around this time of the year, because, you know, I watched the award shows and all and I'm just saying who's doing what and then what their messages and then sort of after they have their message, are they acting in accordance to that message?

And it's fine. Like a lot of times it sort of falls, falls short or for whatever reason, whether it's just something that can't happen. Like, you know, we come, what, a little bit like 11 years or so with the, in the last 11 years we've had Oscar, so why we had times that we have all of these different things and about what's happening that in that area. Sure. Right. And then it's just like, what's the actual changes that have happened? Exactly. Exactly. Exactly.

Veronica_Jackson: But, you know, I wanted to continue on that question because another way that I am looking at black women in popular media is who has portraying them. So if I'm looking in the art world, right, then I look at people like Amy Sherrill, who painted First Lady Michelle Obama.

Right. But at the same time with this retrospective that she has as traveling, she's also portraying realistically portraying because that's her media realistic paintings, realistically portraying black women in very beautiful natural positive lights. And then I'm looking at an artist like Simone Lee, who then takes that kind of abstracted form of the black female body, right? And really portraying that and the copiousness of the black female body. So when I look at artists like that, I get so happy and these are black women portraying black women.

And then so on some ways, like I only trust them to do that kind of that work that is so needed. So it would be great if now Amy Sherrill has been all over the place, right? Because of the portrait and other work. Simone Lee is well known in New York. She also represented America at the Venice Biennale in the last couple of years. But if you're not an art war, you may not know who she is.

But this is like this is where we need to have that kind of like social class in art, like as an instructor, you know, spreading the message of art as a transformative and a very human experience that should be a part of every curriculum.

Rob Lee: That's that's right on. And I'm again, as I said, you know, just have tabs open. So I have another tab open. So thank you. Thank you. Yet another tab. This is like Brick House going. Right. Yeah. And yeah, I mean, it is this.

It's like it's like almost like the the qualification. Like I rather have you speak on this. I think you're qualified to speak on this and dive a little bit deeper. There's a trust that's there because there's a familiarity that's there. And I think we have to be protective of that because art and media often are sort of exports of maybe communities that aren't being seen or as you touched on with, you know, one of the pieces of work that you were touching on the Black Davis piece where it's just like, well, people didn't maybe know about this as broadly. So doing work to do justice to it, to cover, do the proper research and have something with creative and artistic merit.

So having those things there, it's really important because often, you know, someone that's from, that's maybe curious about it. It's like the Google search as you were talking about earlier images from this era is like, well, show me Black artists. It's just like we have to be protective of what's out there and what images that are out there because it's a role in sort of public perception. I mean, people look at the visual, they look at the, well, listen to the audio.

And, you know, especially as a person that's in sort of an audio space, I got to do justice to have these sorts of conversations and feel like they're authentic and not something that's lacking merit. So tell me about this choice of color. Why did you choose that color? Tell me more about the Black experience.

We like to go a little bit deeper, you know? Sure. Sure.

So is there a question there? No, it's just more so. No, no, no, just definitely, just sort of the commentary in that area. I just think it's just really important.

And so I guess here's the question part to it. I think we were already in that area, but maybe kind of setting back on it. What role do you believe that like art and visual culture play in shaping those public perceptions of marginalized communities, whether it be Black people, whether it be Black women more specifically? What are your thoughts in that area?

Veronica_Jackson: Well, they play a huge role. I mean, and then you tapped on it. Like human beings are visual thinkers. That's just biological, right? That's, as a friend of mine says, that's why the eyes are at the top of the head, right? The top of the body. You know, we are visual thinkers.

You can look at any iPhone or smartphone and see all those icons. And there you go. That's that visual language, right? So it's incredibly important what we see, what we put on our visual landscape matters. And the advertising industry knows this, right?

From the beginning, right? So, yeah, there's a woman named Dr. Deborah Willis, so you can open up another tab if you don't know her. She's the foremost authority on African American photography in this country. And she talks about Blackness and beauty.

And she's written so many books about this. And because she understands the visuals, she understands how important visuals are, you know, to our thinking, our perception, right? So there's this whole element of like, if you're going to put something in your visual landscape, you need to understand what you're looking at. You need to understand why someone is putting in in front of you, because it's a manipulation most times, right?

So you have to be cognizant of this thing that's put in front of you. So the art that I make is really about propping up and pulling back the curtain on Black women and pulling back the curtain like the curtain that has been across our personas, right, that we didn't exist, right? So it's this whole element of revealing this beautiful truth that we are visible, we are talented, we are many things that we haven't been given credit for, you know, and this whole element of like the strong Black woman, that is not every Black woman, right? That, you know, we are also vulnerable, right?

We still need hug ups as well. So there's this perception that keeps getting put out in front that is, can be very damaging. And I know I'm kind of like all over the place. I, one of the tenets of my practice is to understand visual culture, to understand. Have people understand what they're looking at? And part of that is because I graduated from a visual and critical studies program at CCA in San Francisco. And that is what it was about. It was like unpacking this visual language that exists in our society, you know, as Americans and also as human beings.

Rob Lee: That tracks. And, you know, I think thinking more critically, I think. When, so I'm a data analyst outside of this, you know, and obviously, you know, AI has been a part of my day to day for the last three, almost four years. And I start looking at images and I'm like, that's not quite accurate. Or why is that that way? And it's in some ways, it's the computer doing blackface or the computer playing with different things. And I just go right back to what I was touching on earlier. We got to have control over these things.

We have to not accept these things. And, you know, because, you know, I was talking to my, I was talking to my dad earlier about this. We were having like a nice little joke about science fiction. And I was like, remember back in the day in 1982 when Blade Runner came out, we were going to have artificial humans. Now it's just a computer doing it because we're lazy.

And he was just like, go on talking more. And I find that we think about the online piece, we think about bots. And you find a lot of these bots that are playing this sort of discourse of this is how black women and black men are integrated, you know, and it's like, you do that little time code.

I think that was on X and it's like, this is from a different country. These are not really indicative. And they're using our terminology or terminology as a fix to us saying, unke or what have you. And I'm like, that's not accurate. It's like, I know what I'm reading ain't it. Or as, you know, it's like having someone such as yourself, that's just like, I want you to be able to know what you're seeing, know what you're reading, what's the merit that's there.

So just kind of give me your flowers in that regard of kind of pursuing and pushing forth that work because some of the people, if someone's not doing it, then it's just left to people who are unqualified to. Exactly.

Veronica_Jackson: And then they control the narrative also. Right. And that's the piece. I mean, I look at, you know, Frederick Douglass, right? It was the most photographed person of his era because he knew the power of photography.

He knew that it was important to portray the Negro properly at that time because you had magazines like Harper's Illustrated Magazine that were characterizing black people at that time, like we're looking like monkeys, right? And so people are just reading this stuff. This is what they think all black people look like. And so Frederick Douglass was like, oh, no, we've got the actual element with photography. And that's why he spread his image across. So during our truth. nd same thing had car to be made of her I felt the I can't remember the phrase to support all the message or sell them the face the big job to support the cause I'm going to look at up real quickly because I get very powerful but all those things are you know these are people right who knew the power of the visual they knew the power of their face their kindness their their bodies to the point where so Jonah truth had these postcards and had them distributed with at our top so anyway

Rob Lee: yeah and I think having that and having that brought up and pushing that that notion out there it shows when we dabble back into those old ideas yeah of black people looking a certain way yeah maybe coming from the highest seat in theory of this country okay you're diving back into that so actually I think that's a good space for us to kind of shift into this sort of next part I want to talk about DC a little bit your your your base in Virginia right

Veronica_Jackson: I'm based in Virginia but I'm a fourth generation Washingtonian I was born to raise in DC

Rob Lee: so storytelling I think is increasingly important today controlling our narrative kind of keeping the thing the sort of a grio the you know being able to pass those stories down and I think it feels more and more threatened whether it be books being removed whether it be redactions and some real redactions and some fake redactions in the context of changing narratives we hear de I thrown around and I want to say what is it the African-American Smithsonian I've went there for the first time back in October I finally got to it and I felt it was very very very important to go and it was right before I had the temporary shutdown and I was like really glad that I went but it was one of those things of sort of self-care right you know in Baltimore we have the blacks and blacks museum and every kid of a certain era was like oh you go down to that part where the slaveship so my partner and I went there and we went to the Smithsonian I was like I don't know if I could do downstairs quite yet I was like we'll have to come back and it was basically holding us to it and we're coming back so we completed the other half once they reopened which was like a couple weeks ago we completed the other half and I was like the lower part is the better part and you know it's a great museum but the lower part is the better part and I just remember my girl was just like you're mad at Portugal I was like I didn't notice about Portugal I'm so mad about this I was just so really upset she was like you keep taking shots at Portugal today so so just for the point of it all it's just like I felt like I learned something and then I did my own research after that so talk about a bit about sort of weaving history into your storytelling into your work and what techniques or particular objects or even text that you use to convey certain narratives okay I know the long-winded thing

Veronica_Jackson: and actually so so Jernah Truth's statement was I sell the shadow to support the substance that was the text on the bottom of her car to be that she sold gave out at her lectures right and we're talking about what 1800s maybe even 1700s I can't I should know but I don't right but I sell the shadow to support the substance right and that's like it's just beautiful right and it's actually a good thing to start my answer because it reminds me that I need to do some work with this piece some text-based work with this piece I need to take this piece and put it into a project but the storytelling element is very important to me because that's my background as an exhibit designer but my stories are always based on something true right so it's the true elements from established archives like the Library of Congress where I found many of the images for my blackness of portraits right and it's also poets like Lucille Clifton which I have used in one of my works like every day something has tried to kill me and has failed right so that that that statement is so powerful that I had to turn it into a visual piece of art right so it also includes Monticello Jefferson's farm book which is the book that he because he was a great record-keeper and from that book I learned the names of seven of his enslaved workers that were listed in a role right alongside the cattle right so that book is doing a couple of things right you're seeing it's documenting the people that he enslaved so we know who they are but he's also juxtaposed next to farm animals so that you know you got to unpack that and I created this these things called tree bands where I embroidered their names and their occupations and their birth and death dates on black huge arm bands and I wrapped them around trees along the Ravana River which is called Jefferson's River so it's like this memorial to those enslaved workers who worked along those banks or shipped goods down from the plantation to Charlottesville so it's like it's it goes back to the storytelling based on fact the storytelling based in the archives because there is so much information out here right there's so much history that has been documented that for people like me it's just like I'm a kid in the candy store right and then it looks like black reconstruction by Du Bois that I need to like get in there unpack a couple things and also 1619 by Hannah Nicole Jones which is really unpacking the history of enslavement and democracy in this country and since we are visual thinkers of human beings I think if we taught history that way a bit bit more and made the connections I think people would understand this American history more than they do now understand while we're in the mess that we're in now because slavery has really the essence and the Civil War and all those elements have not been resolved truly understand that reconstruction only lasted 12 years and but enslavement is like 400 years so it's like it's like connecting the dots and I want to do it through a method called visual art that's not threatening right right as an entree to allow people to come in take this little bit of information and then think about how it may connect to something else you know that I hope I answered your question

Rob Lee: that you did and it actually what you said there made me remember or it pop it made you make a spark an idea and observation I did an interview with Dr. Lawrence T Brown who famously coined the phrase into the book the black butterfly about sort of race and the racial apartheid and in Baltimore and other cities like it and I met him in person we did an interview not long ago and then I'm actually across three from my house which is really great actually and had an opportunity to do his urban cipher game which shows you how the justification works now and this was very interesting because my actual neighborhood was in the game and I was in the sort of privileged class and I was like to progress I guess I have to destroy my real neighborhood and it hit in a sort of different way so is that that sort of vibe someone can be hit over the head and I think it goes back to the rarefied accessible nature of something it's just like here's these heavy things here's these topics that are well researched and well thought out but maybe if the format is different it clicks and it sparks something start connecting those dots yep yep that's it I just know I left out of there and I was just like I was a good boyfriend because you know in my girl's neighborhood in the city I was like yeah we'll put the deal the new store there but my neighborhood bomb it I don't care I need agreed in this game not in real life only in the game I'm a good person in real life right right in the game I'm about winning

Veronica_Jackson: I'm kind of okay yeah

Rob Lee: but I think that's the thing that stood out and I just recall like after wrapping the game it's like four of us who are all Baltimoreians and who all have seen the stuff and kind of knew that why is the city shaped like this why are these different problems been around so long and then you see it and then you see sort of the history component of this is who was living here and this is who was able to live here you're like oh this is generationally constructed and you start just trying not to lose it

Veronica_Jackson: exactly exactly and it's like and then I look at another one of my pieces of the black land ownership please right that's another major element and especially like where I am here in central Virginia and I'm living on my great-grandparent air property and that's incredibly important yeah you froze up

Rob Lee: now I'm gonna unfreeze in a second okay so so I think like so tell me tell me a little bit more about that project because or is that I was curious about I know our froze right there but tell me more about that project with the black land owners yes please oh yeah it's just

Veronica_Jackson: well isn't a project I think it's a preservation project like it's so big and I have to figure out you know what what's the hook what's the element but the basis the basic the basic element is like black people if you got land keep it right do whatever you can to keep that land because the earth not getting any bigger right so this and land is currency property is currency right and we know in this capitalist society what currency means yeah and there's so much land I remember there was this one of the parades from like the 1905 or 19 early 1900s there were black farmers walk doing a parade and one of the sign said we owned five million acres of land and have no representation so it's just like looking at like the number of acres of land that black people owned in the south and that number is just incrementally smaller now right so if there's this it goes back to the wealth like you said the gentrification right I remember in DC when the gentrification happened in the 80s right and it's like DC was chocolate city no more right because people came in and went into these neighborhoods bought these houses either someone condemned or whatever but they changed it and now DC is so different I should say I could probably drop my grandmother who was a Washingtonian born and raised in the middle of someplace in DC she probably wouldn't know what she is it changed that much right right so it's just this whole element of like understanding the value of what we have especially in these rural communities where there's a lot of land and black hands but it becomes difficult sometimes to keep up with the taxes or you think you might not want it the people that have moved to the cities they don't want to be in the country anymore keep that land find a way to keep that land

Rob Lee: yeah it's it's extractive like when I you know I bought my house you know where my home studio is at in my own neighborhood you know I lived here when I was young and I was like oh all this is blighted and I was like I need to live near you know the job that I had and I was just like I'm gonna keep this place I'm gonna figure out a way to keep this because I have my hand on my stamp on something yeah the taxes yeah the demographics and all of that and I try to share the same idea with people who I'm close to who it's not necessarily the sort of role is more speaking to owning something of your own yeah you know I'm just like don't let these people tell you that the city is super dangerous I see white people running around with flip-flops on how can they be dodging bullets with flip-flops it can't be both and I see sort of venture capital and all of that stuff sort of building out more and more places for people to live so they sold you guys a lie and then you're going to the county and it's everything that was there perhaps 20 years ago is no longer there if someone is like hey I'm gonna move out of the city go somewhere rural you'll have more space and do that and have that investment but don't fall for the trick of the county there you go that's it yeah so they want that land

Veronica_Jackson: they want the land that you're gonna give up yeah and it's actually incredibly it's ruthless but it's actually clever because it makes up the so bad that you scare people you know out of that position and then you come in and you know buy it for a song and then now you then you sell it to a developer for three times four times ten times as much yeah

Rob Lee: this is the type of developer I was in the urban cipher game I was like how can we flip this you know about winning so I got I got one last real question I want to run by you and I think we're in that territory anyway and then have a few rapid-fire questions for you and you know it's a rapid-fire one people get scared of those I know that you're gonna crush it because you've been keeping me on point here so I know you're gonna crush it so your story right you know has evolved you have the designer background you know artists and just still with the public historian like root and foundation and the night and I hear it it's just like I feel like I'm learning stuff which you know it's been a long day so during this journey which experience perhaps a residency specific project or that's had the most impact on that that evolution because you're pulling out dates in history and I'm like come on I thought I was done with school

Veronica_Jackson: right never I appreciate it though so there are two things I want to talk about I graduated from grad school in 2016 I went late in life to grad school and then the next year I did an artist residency where when I graduated I didn't know I was an artist that was not that was not the goal I thought I was going to teach and I still want to teach but that's another story I was gonna teach and maybe write critically about visual culture and I got accepted to a residency in Santa Fe New Mexico to work on a project about black abstract expression as art but when I got there I was with all these other artists and there was this opportunity to create art for this exhibit that they were having there and so I had this piece of art in the back of my mind that I always wanted to make and that's what I did I made this piece of art and then the rest of history I just this art just started pouring out of me like the ways to tell these stories of my invisibility my hypervisibility which is an exaggerated visibility and my devaluation so to connect to the devaluation the one of the similar look at this the seminal piece or next to similar piece in my practice is called that's Pops's money and it was it's the homage to my grandmother it's a memorial to my grandmother and you as a data person you kind of appreciate it's also like a data portrait of my grandmother's devalued labor so I hand cranked 813 time cards to a band to cook printing press and each of these cards at the 804 cards has a time sheet on it of my grandmother's labor what she did every day in a month and then not their nine date cards so it chronicles the the marriage of my great grandparents in 1934 and ends with the death of my grandfather in 2006 and that breath is there and it's kind of related to my grandfather because my uncle disrespectfully said one day talking about my grandmother's the pension she was getting from my grandfather's death right and my mother said oh I have to do something with mama's money and my uncle said oh that's not mama's money that's Pops's money me means you know the money that she was getting was not hers and it's like are you serious right she bore him nine children she worked in that house every day clean the house cook the food tend to the garden went to church had nine children so I had wisely duties is one of you know the elements so it was this visualization of her labor with these time cards and it's blue ink on black paper so it's invisible but when you get up to the cards it's debauched into the paper so you can physically see that labor embedded into all of these time cards until that piece got me into some great shows got me into a couple of residency and it still lives with me because it's it's history right and it's a data portrait in a way because well and it's across 12 wall panels so like the second third fourth wall panel you can see like where the babies were born right so just you can just physically see like okay here the children and then the rest of it is pretty much blank with just the labor not the child labor but her labor in the house but it's a very interesting way of like just chronicling and seeing what significant things happen at that time so yeah so those that piece and then that residency yeah that's probably the kind of foundation of my growth and the start of my art practice in the growth as an artist

Rob Lee: well I mean I'm still stuck on the number I mean and yeah no thank you thank you for sharing that because I think and I'd be remiss if I didn't touch on this I think yeah you know when they're sort of that that labor component is sort of not appreciated not respected and not a part of like what's valued that's such a big issue even from just the sort of functional component of it of well someone's doing it exactly and that's the thing that always kind of throws throws me off and I know that that is especially you live online a part of how conversations and some of that discourse is and I think the position of I'm not doing this it's because it's been undervalued and mistreated and not appreciated for so long so there's a legitimate gripe and beef there but then also this this notion of here's a visual representation of the scope and the scale

Veronica_Jackson: exactly yeah

Rob Lee: and having to look in which I thought is a really really cool like choice of this is dark paper dark ink you have to really be like oh oh this is what was that so yeah good good on you good on you

Veronica_Jackson: thank you thank you yeah so a woman saw it recently she was like Veronica is not allowing you to just walk by this thing right she's like no she's drawing you in to make sure you look at this word and I and I do black on black a lot because it's like black women's invisibility so it's that it's plain with tone texture visibility right literally playing with the visibility and exhibiting the invisibility

Rob Lee: it's great it's great it just it pulls you in and if they say black is opulent black is duty and it's just the whole the whole thing the whole thing yeah yeah yeah all right so we got the we got the real stuff done there and I'm glad we were to get that last piece in because now I'm just like all right let's go back to the website um so I have to wrap the fire questions for you and as I say all the time the folks you don't want to overthink these you know you know we're going superficial we're going superficial all right um so here's it's three of them um so what would you say the biggest lesson that you've learned about creativity is wow

Veronica_Jackson: that it is inherently human it's what we all do as human beings I

Rob Lee: thought you weren't going to get deep on me now you're getting deep on me come on all right all right you know what you're right you're right

Veronica_Jackson: you said rapid fire you're right I didn't over thank you

Rob Lee: you're right um what are three objects that you generally have close by a pencil

Veronica_Jackson: a glass of water and my phone

Rob Lee: I know that you're being hydrated over that I was like she's not thirsty

Speaker 3: um

Rob Lee: and here's the last one uh and I think this is this might have a little bit more depth to it because of the nature of the question um but you know there's a malaise going on and I just lose my mind sometimes listening and observing people but what is one thing you'd suggest to folks to improve their critical thinking capacity oh wow not as much rapid fire that one was more like medium fire you know like I

Veronica_Jackson: to improve their critical thinking capacity yeah keep your mind open keep your mind open and research true research not social media go look at an archive go to a library right go to trusted sources and a lot of times that's first person sources if you can yeah but do your research so that you can gather your own data and then you can make decisions from that data all

Rob Lee: right so it's like a data person right there a little bit I like it

Veronica_Jackson: yeah I like data this is you know it's how I make decisions

Rob Lee: I mean look there's a lot of times I go through and I see a good an update and like chat gpt or whatever it is I'll put in something silly like what is LeBron James's jersey number and it'll just spit out some nonsense I'm like this is information that I can get on ESPN and then it defends its wrongness wow and I'm just like no no no no it's I'm I'm testing this part part of my job because you know this thing is being used in a lot of really big choices in this country and I'm like it's inherently wrong a lot and it's generated by people who have their biases and all of these different things in a conversation for another time but I think when people are using that as a source and I approach things almost journalistically let me look this up let me pull this from here let's double check and so on and then form an opinion we don't have the time on energy sometimes

Veronica_Jackson: right right but it's so important I mean remember back in the day when Wikipedia first started right I mean if you were in school they were like no you can't use Wikipedia now it's like no problem yeah I got on exactly AI is the scary thing now right so

Rob Lee: I'll say this it's a it's a book um by Cory Doctorow called in shitification I definitely recommend checking it out what's the name of it in shitification yeah uh-huh and basically it's about platform decay and he talks about um one of the things he talks about in there is how like the ranking for google got worse intentionally for more ads it's like they're not going to let you if you go in there like you probably use this before boolean search you can go out there it's like I want this specific quote here's a bunch of ads here's a bunch of stuff you didn't look for that you'll have to do it again and then you'll get another cadre of ads and it's just like it's done intentionally so you know it's just that so as you were saying like I remember it was well when Wikipedia was not a source

Speaker 3: right right

Rob Lee: so here's the sage advice question and sort of this is you know sort of the culmination here what thoughts you would want to share advice or questions you would like to leave for persons listening to this conversation as it relates to invisibility and visibility yeah oh I would say

Veronica_Jackson: think about what those terms mean especially invisibility and look at your life and look at the people around you that you've taken for granted right are you guilty of invisibilizing someone right that's one side the other side is to look at yourself and and and realize or think about have you been invisible life because a lot of times people don't understand that they have been made invisible and they don't know what to do with that that information that feeling right so it's all about understanding the possible victimhood in a way and then saying that you know you're not a victim or if you are you're going to get out of that like it's all about it's about this kind of self love self esteem self knowledge that I think once we all have that we could we could probably communicate better first of all right so yeah it's like are you guilty of invisibilizing someone or have you been invisible and what do you want to do about that that's great can I ask something real quickly please please so I can't remember how I found out about you but because I am always like as an artist scanning the like open calls and the opportunities and I found you through an opportunity I can't remember what source it was and it said to submit a question or submit something to like a story to be on Truth in this Art podcast and I was hesitant to do it but like I know I have a good story right and so it was the whole element of just like go for it so that's another kind of advice I would give anyone who is thinking about being an artist or who is an artist and they feel that their career is not moving forward or they don't feel really fine where they are right now go for it someday is today do not hesitate just submit your information the worst can happen is like you don't get accepted but somebody might see your work and you may not get accepted for one thing but you someone else may see it and say okay I have something else in mind for you right so don't sleep don't hesitate go for it because I sent you that email I was like I don't know what's going to happen and then you you know back this lovely email and it's like okay let's do this you know that was in November and when you said March I'm like oh that's ages away and then like here we are now

Rob Lee: I try to be a person I think it was Fractured Atlas I think that's what happened yes yeah and um yeah I wanted to try that out and bring it on just just different people new people always sort of stretching those boundaries and um and I think this was really um really good to stretch sort of my background and I'm really glad we were able to have this conversation um so with that being said I do want to um lobby it up to you to tell folks where they can follow you check your work out website social media I do shameless plugs at the end so plug away

Veronica_Jackson: okay so you can go to my website Veronica DC Jackson dot com that's my art website you can go to my instagram which is at Veronica DC Jackson

Rob Lee: and there you have folks I want to again thank Veronica Jackson for coming on to the truth in his art and sharing a bit of her story and insights and for Veronica Jackson I am Rob Lee saying that there's art culture and community in and around your neck of the woods you just have to look forward