00;00;11;08 - 00;00;34;07
Rob Lee
Welcome back to the Truth in this Art your source for conversations connecting arts, culture, and community. These are stories that matter. And I am your host, Rob Lee. Today I'm excited to be running it back with a friend, collaborator, fellow Aquarian, and a Baltimore City College alum. But most notably, she is a visual artist and arts and health specialist.
00;00;34;09 - 00;00;54;21
Rob Lee
Her artwork explores the human condition, focusing on themes of love, loss and resistance within urban and rural environments. We first interviewed back in 2021, and I'm excited to explore what's new in her world and discussing her recent work so please welcome back to the program. Zoe Lintzeris , welcome back to the podcast.
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Zoe Lintzeris
I'm good. I'm relaxed now that I'm home from work. How are you?
00;00;59;17 - 00;01;29;13
Rob Lee
I'm. I'm swell. I'm very swell. Not swell, but swell. So. So for starters, as is the theme with, this podcast to share stories and, you know, that often matter when the, the guest of the, the, the voice of the guest is always or often taken out of when they're sharing their own story. And I want to remedy that in a way of like allowing you, giving you the space to introduce yourself in your own words and to open us up to your story, however you would like to do that.
00;01;29;13 - 00;01;33;24
Rob Lee
So if you will, could you introduce yourself, reintroduce yourself? This is the second interview.
00;01;33;27 - 00;01;51;23
Zoe Lintzeris
Sure. I think the most important thing is I'm a Baltimore City native, born and raised. That might not be the most important thing, I don't know, but I think for you and me, it is, Secondly, I'm a visual artist. I've been a practicing artist now professionally for about ten years, focusing on painting and photography.
00;01;51;25 - 00;02;14;14
Zoe Lintzeris
And particularly within the themes of love, loss and resistance. I'm also an arts and health specialist, so I teach art through a trauma informed lens to children and adults, and, I've been teaching art on the whole for almost ten years, which is crazy to think about because I sort of just like, dove into it randomly. When I was in New York.
00;02;14;14 - 00;02;21;08
Zoe Lintzeris
And, I currently teach art at, psychiatric hospital, for adolescents.
00;02;21;10 - 00;02;36;23
Rob Lee
Wow. And notice those are sort of times like, you know, we did that initial interview about, what, four years ago, right? And you're like, yeah, I've been doing this for about ten years. So you were a few years and you, you know, you're a decade in now.
00;02;36;26 - 00;02;48;06
Zoe Lintzeris
Yeah. So it's kind of crazy to think about, but it's it's been a wild ride. I don't regret any of that. I'm so happy. I. I'm still on this journey, and I chose this path.
00;02;48;06 - 00;03;11;07
Rob Lee
Truly great. And it's I think it's really important to in doing this and checking and and tapping back in with folks to see where they're at and sort of, you know, what's happening in their world that has an impact in influencing their art and influencing sort of just how they live. Because I find that art and sort of the lifestyle, the art life, those two things are separated.
00;03;11;07 - 00;03;20;06
Rob Lee
So what's currently influencing your practice? And that's a big, you know, part of your life right now is through the lens of art, through the lens of your work.
00;03;20;09 - 00;03;46;15
Zoe Lintzeris
So I think it's what I said the last time we talked, current events. I think I said it twice in the interview. It's a big faux pas, but I'm not going to say it twice this time. So. Yeah. Would you say just again, I almost got me, it just kind of really taking in the daily news and just collective feel of the word we used earlier hellscape.
00;03;46;17 - 00;04;16;09
Zoe Lintzeris
And just, you know, processing what's happening in our, in our society in Baltimore, outside of Baltimore, etc., how we're feeling, as humans in reaction to this and that sort of being transposed onto the canvas. I always felt very strongly about that. And when I look at these sort of three key themes of love, loss, and resistance, resistance has come more into the fold now as well as loss, within my work.
00;04;16;09 - 00;04;53;17
Zoe Lintzeris
So I would say nothing super specific is influencing my work at the moment, with the exception of like current events. And I said it again. So, I mean, obviously the news about Palestine is disastrous, horrific. I started a series called Resist Stance, in relation to showing, cultural symbols throughout the ages as as an emblem of resistance and holding them, you know, during revolutionary times across the world.
00;04;53;17 - 00;05;13;25
Zoe Lintzeris
What that means, from roses to the watermelon to, you know, white handkerchiefs, all this stuff. And just really trying to explore that while also having it relate back to my work with hands, which is what I'm still doing. I don't know if you can see it in the background, but, I want to take that forward. Also, touch is very powerful.
00;05;13;25 - 00;05;26;24
Zoe Lintzeris
There's an intimacy to touch and holding objects and kind of showing how odd objects can mean so much, even though we, sort of ascribe them that that meaning.
00;05;26;26 - 00;05;56;18
Rob Lee
That that makes sense. I think, you know, hearing this sort of resistance being a, a more, a larger, a larger theme or having more of a focus because of the aforementioned hellscape. You know, I think of doing this, and even the nature of going back and having folks come back on. I was very curious about community and very curious about sort of this idea of what is considered disposable, you know, like, you know, sometimes, like I do something that's digital.
00;05;56;25 - 00;06;13;17
Rob Lee
As soon as I put it out there, the folks that are supposed to get it, they'll get it. But it's being absorbed by this sort of mass of hundreds of thousands of podcasts that are being put out there every day. And I don't want those conversations to feel like they're disposable, kind of get lost in it. The work is being put in, the conversations being had.
00;06;13;19 - 00;06;38;15
Rob Lee
So I was thinking like, community is important and sort of like the passage of time and how all of that stuff works and what that looks like. And that's something that it took time to, to sort of get there, right, like, you know, coming up on 900 episodes at this point, you know, over the course of now, six years, six full years of doing this, a lot has changed.
00;06;38;17 - 00;07;00;11
Rob Lee
And sort of, folks, this process, how they envision their work. I envision my work early on. I didn't know what the hell to ask people was like, yeah, so you use blue, right? White. You use blue. What's the significance of blue? I might ask that, but now but it might be more of a refined, more of a thoughtful or even a bit more even esoteric question.
00;07;00;14 - 00;07;23;16
Zoe Lintzeris
It makes me think about, art critiques and art criticism and funny enough, I'm a part of, a collective in Baltimore. Women run a collective called Gossip Girl Collective, and we just had a sort of internal workshop about like our critiques and asking questions and being a little more fluid and asking the questions and not as judgmental or blunt or whatever you want to call it.
00;07;23;19 - 00;07;44;10
Zoe Lintzeris
And it was actually really, fascinating because it was like, how do you approach like art critique and art criticism, especially when you're viewing somebody else's art and you have questions and sometimes folks have a more blunt nature, especially if they're unfamiliar with the process or like, I don't get it. Why do you do that? It's quite cetera.
00;07;44;10 - 00;08;08;28
Zoe Lintzeris
And you're just like, oh, God, do I want to really have this conversation? Is this a conversation? Because it sounds more like a declaration. And I think that's the issue. Right? It's like you want to open up to community and then like having these conversations, but it's also like, okay, let's make sure it's a conversation. And not just like declarative barbs being put at your work.
00;08;09;00 - 00;08;29;08
Rob Lee
And then almost having the the person being interviewed or speaking about their work not have a, a good dance partner. That's, that's I've been looking at this a lot is like it's a dance partner thing. Like my style is I don't have an arts background. I have an appreciation of arts. I think I'm a culture guy, as I've been described, and I think art is a big part of culture.
00;08;29;08 - 00;08;48;17
Rob Lee
But I'm looking for those connection and those connections and those strings that kind of make things a little bit more accessible because, I've talked to people who don't really appreciate art and don't get art, quote unquote. And I'm like, well, this is what I see here. What do you see? And trying to make it a little bit more accessible in that way.
00;08;48;19 - 00;09;06;05
Rob Lee
And I think a piece of that, if I will, comes from since you and I last talked, I've taught three different for two for the last two years I've taught, like podcasting, you know, one of the art school and the other one at a at a college, two years at the college and one year at the art school.
00;09;06;07 - 00;09;32;03
Rob Lee
And, you know, really having to retrace certain steps and kind of unlearn things that I thought I knew about, the thing that I do. And also not being so blunt of that episode was trash. Why did you make it like that? Don't you know how to use microphones? And really going back and kind of giving folks sort of like, foundationally speaking, why are you interested in talking about this?
00;09;32;05 - 00;09;51;27
Rob Lee
Why does it need to be you? What is adding to sort of the the canon of this sort of like conversation is discourse. It's like anybody can put on a microphone and talk about current events, but what makes you unique and really sharing that and really getting into the sort of minutia around something that for a while I was struggling with, that feels a little disposable.
00;09;51;29 - 00;10;11;21
Zoe Lintzeris
Yeah. And I think to your point, breathing room is essential for that. Again, to have a conversation, to sit with the art itself or to even sit with the conversation with the person, and also just pausing them and giving that person, perhaps the artist that is hearing the things. So now I'm like, just space to talk and divulge.
00;10;11;21 - 00;10;43;13
Zoe Lintzeris
And then it's like the the famous phrase seek first to understand that, you know, to be understood. And I think that really plays into this. It's like, just breathe, take it in. You know, not everything needs a rapid fire response. And but I think the conversation and to have a conversation is so important versus the like, I was saying, like, almost like shots fired, in, just reflecting on the the whole art process in itself.
00;10;43;15 - 00;11;08;08
Rob Lee
The back end, we'll have rapid fire, just so you know, but I have seen this before moving to this this next question. I have seen this, I haven't read the article yet, but I've seen and it really it really gets my grinds my gears a little bit, but, I, I see someone like, speaking on so many unqualified interviewers getting some of these really big name guests, like politicians and so on.
00;11;08;11 - 00;11;39;02
Rob Lee
And then they have nothing. They got like no merit in what they're talking about. They just have notoriety. So asking these really, really big and powerful, important people, these questions and kind of making them look weird and look bad, but it's just like you have notoriety. And that's the thing that I really am considerate of. Just like, I had an interview, before you and I got on, earlier, and he was like, I appreciate you actually reading over my bio on my information before asking me questions.
00;11;39;04 - 00;12;05;18
Zoe Lintzeris
As a true journalist, somebody of the journalistic mindset should and as a former journalist, I think, which we touched on in the last episode, together, that is a huge part of it. Again, it's to ensure you have a conversation and not just throw out questions. I know the rapid fires coming up. But like, you know, that you actually are looking to invest in what the person is about to say to you.
00;12;05;18 - 00;12;27;20
Zoe Lintzeris
So not just judging what's being said, but, tone reaction and like, you know, what is the facial? What are the facial features saying to you? Are they looking uncomfortable? Should we take a pause, etc.? And I think artists, especially because the work is so personal, there's so many arguments about this is all art political? Is all art personal?
00;12;27;20 - 00;12;48;15
Zoe Lintzeris
Is it just for art's sake? You know, I, I'm of the belief that all art is personal. I mean, it's coming from you. You are a person. We can have an AI discussion later. But again, that that in and of itself is like, okay, this should warrant just pause and an understanding of like, this is coming from a human being.
00;12;48;17 - 00;13;14;08
Zoe Lintzeris
So if we want to tear it to shreds and or loud it, you know, if it happens to be exceptional to you. I mean, I think that just is worthy and deserves like, just a breath. I keep going back to that. Like you just need to pause and reflect versus like going into it all the time. You know, I think some people really get off on that, like the kind of the, not the breaking down, but the sort of breaking apart the why did you do this?
00;13;14;08 - 00;13;28;10
Zoe Lintzeris
And, you know, blah, blah, blah. Because it's exciting that that the way like one asks questions, but in the end it can kind of come off, I think, to the, the recipient of the questions like the artist is like, okay, what are you trying to break into? My friend?
00;13;28;10 - 00;13;47;15
Rob Lee
Like there might be nuance even in that where what I aim for is conversation and what I find a lot of times folks will say, oh, this Q and A, it's like literally a Q&A. There is no connective tissue. It's like, look, you know, like some people are like ribs, right? It's like, look, this cartilage is not there's like, here's one rib, here's another rib.
00;13;47;17 - 00;14;11;00
Rob Lee
And then you might get some barbecue sauce, but really it's nothing more than that. And I think the other thing that comes to mind, I it's I'm still working through this, but I think there's some merit here. I think doing an interview is similar to when someone has a sitter for a portrait. You're trying to capture them in a certain way.
00;14;11;00 - 00;14;26;09
Rob Lee
And as you were touching on with sort of you're having a conversation, what is the face doing? What is the, you know, sort of how is the person receiving it? So if, you know, I took this, I did this a photoshoot a couple months ago and I don't, I don't do photo shoots, you know, I, I took one, I was like, I got to take direction.
00;14;26;09 - 00;14;53;01
Rob Lee
I was like, I cool if I get to just be here and be the talent. But it was a very transformative experience for me, and it was because I was taking direction. And I really immediately connected those dots. Especially because I've interviewed the person before is, Jefferson, Jefferson, Lou. And, you know, having sort of that experience in how you were describing sort of like when you're having those conversations and, you know, sort of maybe how a person looks or how they're receiving something.
00;14;53;01 - 00;15;13;22
Rob Lee
It just took me back to that. It made me think like sitting down and empathizing with the person that is the subject, you know, of a portrait or photography or whatever. It's just like, oh, right. If they're not enjoying the shoot or if they're having a hard time and you're capturing that, let's say you're painting it, that's going to be in there in the sort of degree of permanence.
00;15;13;24 - 00;15;51;15
Zoe Lintzeris
Yeah. And and you will and you will take it in as like the artist yourself, you know, you're like, oh, maybe I should just hold off a little bit, or we should pause and I, I don't know. Again, it's all about just like the give and take the sending and receiving of information, I think, and how you're able to do that and treat things I think with, with Grace, and just be courteous to the other person and don't just go off on like a big ego filled, I would say, rant like if, when having a conversation or, offering criticism.
00;15;51;17 - 00;16;10;14
Rob Lee
I mean, my next season, it's all going to be ego filled rant and just like, yeah, this is why your work is me, what you should do is, you know, deep for that very weighty, I used to call it the cauliflower tower position, instead of ivory tower. So, so I'll ask this, and maybe it's sweet.
00;16;10;15 - 00;16;30;22
Rob Lee
We've talked, you know, it hasn't been five years since we've talked with this pod, but over the last five years, how have you refined your your process or your vision as an artist? You know, I know that the, the professional, like, you know, arts and professional sort of life are like kind of running neck and neck, actually, with the sort of artist career.
00;16;30;24 - 00;16;35;20
Rob Lee
So talk a bit about refining your process and your vision.
00;16;35;22 - 00;16;56;25
Zoe Lintzeris
Sure. So for the longest time, like when I was in New York, I was working out of my bedroom, literally taping canvases to walls, working on the floor like one room shop. Okay. Because, I was living in an apartment where we didn't really have a living room where I could just get two things. So everything was done in my bedroom, for many years.
00;16;56;25 - 00;17;24;27
Zoe Lintzeris
And when I moved back to Baltimore, I was still working in my bedroom. I was still sharing an apartment. But a very serendipitous thing happened. In April 2023. I was walking in a park around where I live, and this woman called out to me. We were both still wearing masks. Like, again, this was that time, right? And she goes, Zoe, and all I see is this, you know, I'm just seeing, just eyes.
00;17;25;00 - 00;17;48;11
Zoe Lintzeris
And she's walking a dog, and I said yes, and she says hi, and I'm like, thick, thick. Who is this? Who is this? How do I know this person? Right. And, you know, it's like, I don't want to throw shade or I'm like, okay. But then I realized, I said, John Marie. And she said hi. And I said, oh my God, this is somebody Rob that I attended in New York in 2016.
00;17;48;11 - 00;18;06;28
Zoe Lintzeris
I think it was a design Your dream job workshop. No joke. She and I were at the same workshop trying to, like, change our lives and like work for ourselves, etc. because we were just very disgruntled with corporate life and we just. And I said, what are you doing in Baltimore since I live here now? She like moved in with her, her boyfriend at the time.
00;18;06;28 - 00;18;31;00
Zoe Lintzeris
And I said, I can't believe this. This is crazy. We have to catch up. Fast forward, fast forward. We then decided to share a studio together. She was our graffiti, Graffiti alley, you know, the warehouse, a graffiti warehouse. I said, let's do it. So we ended up sharing a studio together. This changed my practice completely, because finally, I had a designated space where I could just spread out and just tack things to walls.
00;18;31;03 - 00;18;50;04
Zoe Lintzeris
And we were there on separate days. We weren't working in the, same place at the same time. And I just felt like, not that I had made it, but like, I was close because I was like, oh, this is what I wanted in New York, but it's in Baltimore and it's affordable, and I can do this. And it's in the, you know, station with Arts District.
00;18;50;06 - 00;19;27;28
Zoe Lintzeris
And then that was for about a year, and then I moved out and eventually got my own place and set up a little like my own apartment and set up a little studio within the apartment, which I am proud of. I have to say, took a long time to get here. But the other thing that might be the most important thing that has changed, and what I've learned is that I work slow, I work slowly, and I'm finally okay with it, because as we were kind of talking about like with, you know, just content and things being put out there and, you know, all this stuff, like just creating stuff, just to create
00;19;27;28 - 00;19;47;13
Zoe Lintzeris
stuff, I realize I just do not it's not a part of me. It's not part of my essence of being. Not to sound really obnoxious, but, I work slow. The painting behind me, which is my first nude, actually, I've been working on for two years. There's a hand involved. Don't worry. So I'm still painting hands.
00;19;47;16 - 00;20;05;11
Zoe Lintzeris
But I've been working on this off and on for two years, and half of me is like, this should be done right now. This should have been in a show, blah, blah, blah. But I'm like, you know what? It's just not ready yet. I will know when it's ready. So I would say that's probably the the biggest thing is not just I work slow, it's okay.
00;20;05;13 - 00;20;20;08
Zoe Lintzeris
The good things will keep coming, but I don't feel like I have to force myself just to just put stuff out, like put, just put work out there to put out there anymore. And I it's very, liberating to do you feel that way.
00;20;20;10 - 00;20;50;16
Rob Lee
That's that's great. I, you know, I've been finding sort of connection with, I do like a weight training, strength training practice regularly and, you know, get these different quotes. And I hate the dude bro quotes. So I try to, like, retrofit them for me because I'm like, you sure. And, you know, one of the things, that I read, was this sort of this really short phrase around, what is it, motivation in discipline.
00;20;50;20 - 00;21;16;12
Rob Lee
It's like when I run out of motivation, I'll have discipline. You know, you can't just, you know, make motivation. So it's like fleeting, but discipline, you just show up, you do it. And that makes me think of doing something for the long haul. So in doing this, I don't know if I'm good or bad at it, but I know that I am disciplined to set up my questions, reach out to people, do the things that I need to do, and motivation comes and goes whenever it comes, I say, I'm really excited to talk to this person.
00;21;16;12 - 00;21;41;24
Rob Lee
I'm really excited to talk to that person. There are some people who, in doing this, are friends, and I've been able to identify that a bit more especially and thinking through the curation of this season. That's a piece of it, because you know what I went into this for? And I had this conversation with someone recently, I think, Nahum Misra and she was talking about any excuse to do my art.
00;21;41;24 - 00;22;01;05
Rob Lee
And it is connected with making friends. And that's one of the things that I really value in this. But now I'll say I've got a bit more discerning as to the proximity, you know, because there are some people like you just coming in, hey, man, let's be friends. It's like, but I and I realized that about it.
00;22;01;05 - 00;22;23;23
Rob Lee
I realized that, you know, as far as talking about, like, you know, that you work slower and being like, okay, with that? I think I realized that when there's a misaligned, you know, sort of connection, they are like, oh, no, no, no, that doesn't fit for me or something that feels exploitative. Maybe early on when I was doing this show, I would do it every opportunity because I'm so motivated.
00;22;23;26 - 00;22;39;19
Rob Lee
But now with the amount of discipline and the time and effort that goes into it, I know what this thing costs. So now I'm going to do it this way and this is the way that I want to do it. And if there's an opportunity that I miss out on or there's a connection, I miss out on being fine with that.
00;22;39;21 - 00;23;06;22
Zoe Lintzeris
Yeah. And speaking of motivation, I think it impacts everything, right? You can also start being motivated about something and then it's completely thrown away in the end. Like how many times you really I love this idea. I'm ready. And then it's like, oh God, I'm going to shelve that. Or just that's going in the trash. I will say though, given my day job, which is teaching at the psychiatric hospital, motivation at times, especially after I work, is very challenging to come by.
00;23;06;22 - 00;23;28;14
Zoe Lintzeris
I'm giving so much. So not to toot my own horn, it's just I'm giving a lot of physical and or mental energy and teaching, these kids, ages 12 to 18, about art, and I see what it does for them. But it's also taking, you know, it's like kind of me just taking my energy and giving it to them, which is part of the role as a teacher.
00;23;28;14 - 00;23;48;25
Zoe Lintzeris
I mean, any teacher can tell you that at least I would hope a good teacher would tell you that. But in the end, I'm like, okay, let me try. Let me recalibrate. I think maybe that's the word for it and see what is left over for me. During the workweek. So what I do is I have this wonderful stabby calendar that, this is corny July.
00;23;48;28 - 00;24;12;26
Zoe Lintzeris
Okay. And I cross off the days that I actually am, like, doing something professionally for my art practice, you know, and for my art, career. And that kind of keeps me in check, to be fair. This this thing stabby. But in the end, it comes down to, like, just having to recalibrate after the day and saying, okay, what can I do today?
00;24;12;26 - 00;24;26;05
Zoe Lintzeris
What is possible today, but also not pushed anymore? Ten years ago with the New York mentality, the vibe. Absolutely. But also ten years ago, I was I want to say age. I don't know, we're going to keep that quiet.
00;24;26;07 - 00;24;29;00
Rob Lee
Ten years differently or have you.
00;24;29;02 - 00;24;41;00
Zoe Lintzeris
Yeah, there was more energy. You know, there's just more energy. I mean, yeah, I'm just sitting with my my state of being now, and I'm like, this is fine. Like, I'm I'm good with it.
00;24;41;02 - 00;25;02;01
Rob Lee
I will say this last thing when it comes to the teaching thing, I appreciate and I value folks that are doing the, I like to call it the, creative daywalker like blade. I could be invoked worlds. I, I did the, you know, want to say last year was my first sort of like so I did DSA for the whole school year with seniors.
00;25;02;03 - 00;25;27;11
Rob Lee
And then I did like sort of a four week, but three hour classes at, the Umbc and podcast setting. And I had one podcast with a very prominent guest that was at a West Coast, and it was right after class. So I had my regular day job, then the teaching gig and then a recording, and I think I nodded off during a recording.
00;25;27;11 - 00;25;43;21
Rob Lee
I don't remember what I talked about, and I should have probably canceled it, but I, you know, postponed it. But I was thinking like, oh, Rob you, you're the guy I used to do. You know, 16 episodes in a week is like, you can also get tired too. You can also think about doing things in sort of a different way.
00;25;43;21 - 00;25;51;22
Rob Lee
So when I went into this season, normally I would do well over 100 episodes this season. I was like, I'm trying to cap it at about 75.
00;25;51;24 - 00;26;19;25
Zoe Lintzeris
Yeah. And I think, you know, you being an artist yourself, right? Like I think this is what happens with artists, which is like it's beautifully tragic or tragically beautiful, however you want to look at it where we are, that group of folks around the world who, at least in this country, have to work multiple jobs, have to really give our energy not just to our craft, but to others in order to sustain our livelihood, but also like in the end, it is a labor of love.
00;26;19;25 - 00;26;47;10
Zoe Lintzeris
I mean, how many countless hours do you do prepping? You know, edit like, I mean, yes, you get paid for it. Like in in a sense, we all do it in a sense. But also most of this is a labor of love. And the person who's accountable is you. Yeah, that can be very draining on the because, you know, as we just said, there comes pressure and like deadlines and trying to make people happy and boundaries.
00;26;47;10 - 00;27;03;15
Zoe Lintzeris
And again, that blur of the professional with the personal and being an artist again, those boundaries blur. And it's like, all right, well, I got to make time for so and so and and to your point, I can knock these three things out in a day. And it's like nowadays I'm like, oh, I come home, that couch looks so inviting.
00;27;03;21 - 00;27;10;05
Zoe Lintzeris
That remote looks even better. Let me pour my seltzer. Oh, look, it's 1030. I gotta a no time.
00;27;10;08 - 00;27;12;19
Rob Lee
So. Oh, you're me. Yeah.
00;27;12;21 - 00;27;13;22
Zoe Lintzeris
Sorry. Go in.
00;27;13;24 - 00;27;16;28
Rob Lee
There. So? So, person two. You get it? You saw me drinking my liquid death earlier.
00;27;17;00 - 00;27;34;25
Zoe Lintzeris
Yeah. That's that's that's. So that's where we're all headed to. To Seltzer City. But yeah, it's just it's it's a lot. But in the end, we're all making it work to the best of our ability in our own timeline, you know? And I think that's, that's the thing of beauty in and of itself.
00;27;34;28 - 00;27;55;25
Rob Lee
Yeah. And the last thing I'll say in it, it reminds me of one of the quotes from the first episode of the season, the doc, and said he was like, you run your own race. And that's, it's, it's it's this wisdom right there. It's just like so often we're doing a comparative thing. Oh, let's go ahead of this studio and you're doing this and it's like, sure.
00;27;55;25 - 00;28;23;11
Rob Lee
Well where's that coming from? An understanding of the root of it. And if that relates to you, maybe. But a lot of times it's it's not it's sort of the, the feed that we're getting from the algorithms and the AI or whatever it is. And and I think, you know, being in a really interesting spot, you know, doing, you know, teaching science and so on, you really are thinking through things a bit more critical as to why am I doing this as it relates to my own work.
00;28;23;13 - 00;28;43;21
Zoe Lintzeris
And I'm going to go further with what you said, and like, what Dee was, was talking about, which is, this is absolutely entrenched in American culture. Like running your own race and, you know, the, like comparing ourselves to others. It's what keeps us going. It's the hustle. It's just another coded term, and it's it can I mean, yeah.
00;28;43;21 - 00;29;00;25
Zoe Lintzeris
So a lot of people have credited that to like, why where they are, the way they are, like Jay-Z and all these folks who have like, really just like, you know, in their words, like, came from the trenches and are now like, you know, riding high. But the fact of the matter is that is not very common.
00;29;00;27 - 00;29;20;13
Zoe Lintzeris
And as I read in a book ages ago about, like, like the Science of luck or something, you need three things. You need talent that helps. You need persistence, but you also need opportunity. Those are the three things. And it's like, if you can get those things and that opportunity being like people helping you, this is how it works.
00;29;20;17 - 00;29;37;26
Zoe Lintzeris
That's I'm saying no one does this on their own. It's a lie, I don't care. Somebody had help somewhere. Somebody offered you something. And again, as an artist like that is so key. But I don't want to go down this road. But a lot of us get exploited due to that as well. I'll just leave it at that.
00;29;38;01 - 00;29;55;02
Rob Lee
But it's it's is really big. And the super important I, I talk about this when I talk with my, my, my students, it's like, hey, you know, how do I monetize this? I was like, do you find someone that's going to bank, that's going to, bankroll it, that's going to act like they don't exist, but then they're going to tell you to only talk to these guests.
00;29;55;05 - 00;30;14;08
Rob Lee
You know, it's like. And I say something as simple as, when you see these video clips noticed all of the studios look exactly the same as, like there's nothing new and unique about it. They're being bankrolled. There's the quote unquote opportunity that's there. I was like, their talent might be questionable. Their, persistence and their sort of, you know, gumption to do that.
00;30;14;08 - 00;30;35;29
Rob Lee
But it's a very old word, gumption. But I it it's somewhat there, but I think you me a lot of folks that I know that are in sort of this similar spot, the opportunity thing is sort of lacking at times, and folks are not being as forthright as you or you're touching. And I think as to, you know, give me all of those other details.
00;30;35;29 - 00;30;52;08
Rob Lee
So how suddenly just one day you hit it big and you made it? It's like we're all talented, we're all busy, we're all like, persevering. We're all being very productive and making these things happen. But the opportunity thing is like, you know, what is it? Solve for X? It's sort of that.
00;30;52;10 - 00;31;08;22
Zoe Lintzeris
Yeah. And I'll, I'll touch on that a bit further in the sense of like, this is kind of the essence of the Gossip Girl collective, which I'm a member of. But like, we all started like as an art crit group. I mean, that's what it was. It was like art crit on Friday night because, you know, we're nerds and we're lovely.
00;31;08;24 - 00;31;35;10
Zoe Lintzeris
Drinking wine, eating cheese, bringing work just to talk about, like we were sharing our, our, our hopes with the work or like, let's, let's, let's create this work or, here's what I'm frustrated in my practice. And then it grew into this bigger thing simply because we were like, strength in numbers. This is huge. Okay, well, if the opportunities are going to come for you or for me or whomever, let's get together and do something together.
00;31;35;10 - 00;31;49;25
Zoe Lintzeris
And this is where, like, the collective is kind of blown up in the sense I don't want to say we're like, we're part of the the Baltimore scene and getting all this coverage and stuff. Like, we've been covered a couple of times, which is nice. I'd like to see more, from, the powers that be out there.
00;31;49;25 - 00;32;10;08
Zoe Lintzeris
But, you know, I'm just me. Like, I just think that's that is beyond, That's what needs to be done. It's just strength in numbers, getting people together. Like, if the opportunities aren't there or they're we're being ignored or somebody is ignoring you and you're an artist, make your own opportunities. Reach out to galleries, be like, can I have a show here?
00;32;10;08 - 00;32;30;22
Zoe Lintzeris
Like, I know you have artwork up, whatever. Sometimes. Yeah. Again, there's that motivational thing we've been talking about. You have to be a little determined and throw out some feelers. Expect a ton of rejection, but you never know who may bite. But yeah, I would say the collective, like, just in terms of talking about opportunity is we've been carving that out for ourselves.
00;32;30;22 - 00;32;50;02
Zoe Lintzeris
I mean, we even opened our gallery last year. We ran out of, a space in Maryland, Art place, and we did that because we were like, hey, this is how we want to show, you know, other people's work in the community first and foremost. And also like kind of our thoughts on curation and even the art handling process.
00;32;50;02 - 00;32;55;14
Zoe Lintzeris
I mean, it's all part of the process, but also it's part of Baltimore to.
00;32;55;16 - 00;33;10;19
Rob Lee
Know, I think I think it's really important. And I had Caitlin on, earlier, Caitlin, go earlier to talk about, talk about that a bit. So technically, you know, this platform who doesn't do it, doesn't do anything has and help serve around the conversation around and.
00;33;10;21 - 00;33;12;02
Zoe Lintzeris
Yeah for sure.
00;33;12;10 - 00;33;31;02
Rob Lee
But but I think, you know, you're keen on a few things like one, you know, sort of some of the stuff around the, the criticism component, the handling component, the collaboration, like, hey, I might know more about this particular area. How can I help you maybe get your stuff in this area, how can we help each other grow?
00;33;31;04 - 00;33;57;12
Rob Lee
And I find you touched on the exploitative thing a bit. There was a few opportunities I had to decline, you know, earlier this year because it was sort of this low energy exploitation. It's just like you already have my interest, but then it's like you're kind of half assed in it, you know what I mean? As far as, like opportunities that presented themselves or, you know, I and I think like I'm already discerning and in somewhat like skeptical of things.
00;33;57;12 - 00;34;18;25
Rob Lee
But a lot of folks there sort of maybe opportunity starved and, and it looks really good. But I think having a collective having someone maybe to bounce an idea of what do you know about this? Can you, you know, read through this with me. Can you bounce? You know, have a few different perspectives. I think that that's really important, you know, and it's like even critiquing the opportunities, not even just the art.
00;34;18;25 - 00;34;21;10
Rob Lee
Like what the opportunity might look like.
00;34;21;12 - 00;34;38;12
Zoe Lintzeris
Yeah. And I think that's that is the power of the collective. On the whole, most of us are teachers, you know, like most of us are working multiple jobs just trying to keep it together. But also recognizing, like, hey, this opportunity might be good for you or what do you think about this? And I'll share something with you.
00;34;38;14 - 00;35;02;05
Zoe Lintzeris
I got one of those wonderful emails, from some God knows where, somewhere in Italy. And they were like, hey, we're having this arts festival, and we came across your website. No, you didn't, no one likes my website. So, go to my website, guys, please. But they came across my website. They actually use my contact form on my website and said, we'd love you to take part in this exhibition we're having in a month.
00;35;02;05 - 00;35;22;19
Zoe Lintzeris
And a half in Italy. Here's all the information, blah, blah, blah. It looks official. Snazzy reds, pinks, all the things. And I'm like, okay, so what are the fees here? Because you're not going to cover everything or anything, for that matter. And I emailed them back twice. I'm not going to name names or anything, but I never received any information when I was asking about fees.
00;35;22;19 - 00;35;43;02
Zoe Lintzeris
Like, like, what is the deal here? How are you handling my work, where's my work going to be stored, etc.? Nothing. So if you're talking about opportunities, I wouldn't say I'm opportunity starved at the moment, but like there is excitement when you have what looks like a legitimate entity reaching out to you again, as an artist, you don't see doctors and bankers busking on the street, my friend.
00;35;43;02 - 00;35;58;09
Zoe Lintzeris
Okay, like this is like you see artists, there's a reason for that. Like we are somewhat I mean, it's the starving artist trope and I hate it. And I want to make it like my life mission to break it for others because this is ridiculous. Like, we need artists. They help us live and breathe just as well as doctors.
00;35;58;15 - 00;36;23;20
Zoe Lintzeris
So, like, I just think about all this. I'm like, how much exploitation do we experience? How much do people or the powers that be want to kind of just throw out, like the bait in a way to see who's going to, like, latch onto it simply because maybe that's the first, person who's reached out to them in like 6 to 8 months being like, hey, I found your work, blah, blah, blah.
00;36;23;22 - 00;36;39;08
Zoe Lintzeris
And I'd love for you to be in this. And then they're like, not human. Like, it just it's a very bizarre world we live in where this can happen. But as I said, when I was in New York, you can there's so much opportunity up there in New York, there really is. But there's also so much competition.
00;36;39;10 - 00;37;03;04
Zoe Lintzeris
And now we're competing against the world, every industry. But as artists, it's now I think you now have so many opportunities for the whole world to hear your podcast or for the whole world to see my artwork, but there's so many of us in this world that it's like, all right, and with like, algorithmic things, as you were saying, like, who's paying who to get their stuff at the top, you know, like it can be very challenging and demoralizing.
00;37;03;04 - 00;37;13;29
Zoe Lintzeris
But as I say, strength in numbers. This is where local community, which I think I touched on the last episode we did, this is where that's that's the strength you start there.
00;37;14;02 - 00;37;30;14
Rob Lee
Yeah. And, you know, that's a that's a piece of it. And like, when I do these in the past, I was a little bit more, you know, they like it, they all share it and it's like, no, share the interview. Share the thing that you do put your whole ass into. It is not one of these sort of half assed projects, and I'm not treating it like a half assed thing.
00;37;30;14 - 00;37;47;00
Rob Lee
And, you know, I try to give folks the space and opportunity. And if I were to put a little stank on it, if you will, it's like, yes. And giving you a platform to come and talk about your work for an hour. And there are other podcasts that I know who charge people to come on to do the same thing.
00;37;47;03 - 00;38;12;20
Rob Lee
I don't do that. I know that other folks, have a paywall in front of your, you know, real story being put out there from some of the big publications we may know and love and, you know, so I really avod that I'm into and I take what comes with that. But I think it's really important to as you're touching on for that community part to be there for the collaboration part, to be there.
00;38;12;22 - 00;38;30;16
Rob Lee
You know, as I was sharing earlier with the, you know, the artists whose works behind me, I'm seeing you agree that was a referral. You know, that person was referred to me and, you know, the referring parties. The dude named David about it. He was like, I've been on your podcast. I had a great experience and I think she's a great artist and I think she'll have a great experience.
00;38;30;16 - 00;38;55;18
Rob Lee
So it's like sort of the matchmaking thing. It's like kind of curated that a little bit of my guy, you made you made a thing that fit. And and it turned out to be a really cool conversation. And so when I do this, it's just like, have if you're into the episode, you appreciate the episode. That's all you're doing is is sharing it, have your audience so the people that follow you be aware of something else that you've done in addition to your art or your brand or what have you.
00;38;55;20 - 00;39;19;14
Rob Lee
But I'm always sort of skeptical of these opportunities that seem a little too good to be true. I've had so many folks, so like, we both have a real life outside of sort of the this imaginary art. Rob, I am a data analyst, and I've had so many folks come to me with the on the surface, the great opportunity to help blow up my brand, right?
00;39;19;17 - 00;39;35;25
Rob Lee
My numbers aren't publicly available. So how do you know if my interviews are doing great, if they're doing bad or what have you? But folks come from a very knowing position how they have the exact magic bullet to help me blow up. But the me part is not in there. Like, how do you know what my goals are?
00;39;35;25 - 00;39;42;12
Rob Lee
You didn't ask. You're assuming that these are the things that I want to tell my brand, bruh. Yeah, these are quotes that are said to me.
00;39;42;14 - 00;40;03;17
Zoe Lintzeris
Yeah, well, they assume that like a you're you're not getting the traction you want if they're coming at you with that verbiage. Number one. And number two, how do they know like to your point that you want to blow up per se or like you want to be like the biggest thing in Baltimore or Maryland or the United States or the like, let's just say, you know, and it's there's so many assumptions in this world.
00;40;03;17 - 00;40;26;22
Zoe Lintzeris
But, I mean, to the credit of that artist connecting you to another artist. Right. The oldest thing in the book, word of mouth, word of mouth equaling than the first form of advertising. Like, you go off people you trust. This is how things are done. And I think, again, there's so much noise in this world, particularly with content creation, all the art.
00;40;26;22 - 00;40;45;19
Zoe Lintzeris
Now, again, we're going up against AI, art, AI voices. I'm sorry to throw that out there. Like AI everything. And you're like, is this real? Is this not where's the. But now we're just going to, I think implicitly, we have to trust each other through word of mouth being like, hey, let's let's not go down that dark road of of unknown, so to speak.
00;40;45;19 - 00;41;05;01
Zoe Lintzeris
Let me just bring in who I trust. And that's not to say you can't we can't open up to other people and other experiences, but I think I'm just going to say like protect the boundaries a little bit, like, you know, so personally I have a million followers, but like, how many like actual friends do you have? How many people can you trust on your ten fingers?
00;41;05;01 - 00;41;08;05
Zoe Lintzeris
I almost said ten hands. My brain is moving too fast.
00;41;08;07 - 00;41;09;23
Rob Lee
No, no, no, that is a good point.
00;41;09;26 - 00;41;29;29
Zoe Lintzeris
You know what I mean? Like and just kind of again, keep keep that community close to you because odds are so much can be done with that versus like, I don't know, reaching out to a million people. But I've also been proven wrong. Like I think of humans of New York. Like that guy. I think his name is Brandon, something I can't remember, a photographer who's literally raised so much money for so many people.
00;41;29;29 - 00;41;50;19
Zoe Lintzeris
He's randomly interviewed. Like just people who have cancer. People are homeless and like how he's amassed his community of followers to, like, raise a ton of money and break, you know, records and stuff. So, I mean, it's kind of this it goes both ways, in a way. But I'm going to be the more traditional person I want to say and just say.
00;41;50;19 - 00;42;11;20
Zoe Lintzeris
I think word of mouth is good and like, just kind of keeping things closed for now. There's just there's a lot of there's a lot of trash out there. There's a lot of noise. And you gotta, you gotta you gotta be a little, I think, discerning of what you're choosing to absorb these days.
00;42;11;22 - 00;42;19;06
Rob Lee
They call it eye slop. That that's a that's a piece of, I think of, you know, and doing.
00;42;19;06 - 00;42;24;05
Zoe Lintzeris
Just like us tags. Like, if we're ingesting eye slop. I'm so sorry.
00;42;24;07 - 00;42;47;25
Rob Lee
That's a that's really good, actually. No, but I think that's a really good, good point and good distinction. There is, you know, you know, often you just see folks just throwing stuff out there. And I've made those considerations with my own stuff and there's a thoughtfulness to it. So and consciously bringing down the volume of stuff that was putting out, you know, I have friends who are close to me to know, like really know how much work goes into these things.
00;42;47;25 - 00;43;05;03
Rob Lee
It's like you're like very hard working and the natural inclination is and that working hard enough, I could do more. And because of some of the stuff I shared before, we have a lot of free time and spare time, but it's not really a lot of spare time. And free time is just kind of like getting to that sort of next thing.
00;43;05;06 - 00;43;35;05
Rob Lee
And I find often my time is somewhat dependent on who's available and who's down the jump on. And I think about it like, if I were to shift to a full time thing and do this all the time, it's like I would I wouldn't like it. It would lose its specialness. They would lose sort of that. The daywalker thing I said before, it's just like I like being able to kind of split my time in that way and have these blocks and being able to have that separation, but within context.
00;43;35;09 - 00;43;52;15
Rob Lee
So, you know, if I do a full day of work or whatever other stuff I have to do, and I have like a 2 hour to 3 hour block that I can dedicate towards my podcast or anything in that area 2 or 3 times a week. That's the balance right now. And I've also learned that about myself over these years.
00;43;52;18 - 00;44;12;08
Zoe Lintzeris
You know, and I think that's beautiful because again, not everyone's going to be that way. Like some people are going to be like the it's not that you're not all in because you are, you know, you've created this thing and you've developed it. You've sustained it. That that speaks volumes. That's not easy. Again, to to continue a practice because some people can just drop in and be like, you know, I'm not into this anymore or whatever.
00;44;12;11 - 00;44;41;25
Zoe Lintzeris
And to be fair, even if you were to do that, like, okay, you know, it's like we're our own harshest critic, art critic, and it's really like pressures on all the time. Again, as artists we work usually by ourselves. And so if it's not going to get done by us, like in our vision of this idea, who else is going to do it and are they going to do it in a way that we see as like, oh, well, that's how it should be, or I could have done it better or I would have done it differently or whatever, you know?
00;44;41;27 - 00;45;01;20
Zoe Lintzeris
But in the end, like it's it's up to us and it's usually, again, a very isolating practice. And just kind of setting the boundaries, but also being like, okay, I have the blocks of time, as you call it, like Mondays and Tuesdays for me, Rob, are my studio night or like I'm doing something related to my art practice.
00;45;01;20 - 00;45;20;23
Zoe Lintzeris
So like this I count as this conversation is related to my art practice. This is part of studio time. I'm in my studio. I have to have that separation. I've realized, but this is not going to be every night, seven days a week. I think that's what I was thinking about, like, way back when originally. Like, I should be doing this every day.
00;45;20;25 - 00;45;40;11
Zoe Lintzeris
And I was like, no, I'm not going to do that. But if I can do it a few days a week, again, having that energy, right, finding that energy, taking that time because I don't want a half acid, you know, I'd like to put my best in. And just taking it a little bit, a little bit easy with that.
00;45;40;13 - 00;45;58;01
Rob Lee
So if there's one comment I'll make before I get into these last two questions, the real questions comment goes, you know, it just reminds me of this, this sort of notion of really, this is a book about how folks do their work, you know, go about their, their sort of process. You'll see, like Andy Warhol, you see all these different people.
00;45;58;03 - 00;46;14;02
Rob Lee
And I think I've gotten two different books. It's just like how they work. And I'm really into how they go about what they do. And I think that there is space if I had the time and energy, but there's space to really get those insights and interview people purely on that could be five minutes. Tell me how you do your work.
00;46;14;04 - 00;46;32;24
Rob Lee
You know, what's that cadence? What is all of that that look like? It is again taking on another thing and, and the stuff that goes along with it. But I think there's a lot of value that's there because, you know, folks will see as you you mentioned and even my buddy David, who I said, introduced me to, Zinnia, who's this, this artist, the Russian artist.
00;46;32;26 - 00;46;49;08
Rob Lee
He's like in the same sort of space. He's like, I work slow. And I was just like, yeah. I was like, oh. And he's like, I work slow, I work super slow. And I was like, yes, that's that's great. And that's so counter to just see this churning out mechanism and yeah, you know, that's, that's sort of the thing.
00;46;49;08 - 00;46;56;22
Rob Lee
There's the thought that I'm playing with, it's no, it's not developing. It's not bloom. Jet's not a sapling, but I feel like it could be something for sure.
00;46;56;22 - 00;47;25;04
Zoe Lintzeris
And I, I want to very quickly touch on what you said about artists like Warhol and like all these folks who came up at a certain time. And now we Revere or we're supposed to Revere, these people had help. They had help in their studio when they got big. They were able to have, you know, the help and again, that kind of community bond and backers and patrons and again, you had the New York art world, which is vastly, there's a lot of wealth backing that.
00;47;25;04 - 00;47;44;13
Zoe Lintzeris
Okay. As well as in Los Angeles and now Miami a bit, which is interesting. But New York for sure. So these folks, again, weren't doing it alone and I, we got our like, that kind of gives me some comfort in a way because I'm like, okay. They weren't just like it wasn't just them in their studio.
00;47;44;13 - 00;48;03;15
Zoe Lintzeris
Once they got to that point, they they had help and they had a lot of it. And or they could at least rest a little bit easy with maybe some bill paying or like, you know, because they had patrons, they had, backers, you know, financial backers. And that changes the game. It just does, you know.
00;48;03;18 - 00;48;25;02
Rob Lee
It it does. And with some of the the movements, especially for the first seven months or so of this year, the imagery in trigger warning, if you will. But the imagery that pops in my head is, is sort of this creative stranglehold. It's like how can we take the oxygen, whether it be the resources or what have you, and kind of shift things into, well, this is now art.
00;48;25;02 - 00;48;48;02
Rob Lee
We're shaping this due to the lack of funding, the lack of voices, the diet, all of these sort of different things. And I don't know, just I keep returning to that, that imagery in my head of the lifeblood for some folks, whether it be the funding, whether it be the as you, as you're touching on, you know, socially depleted bills, folks need to have sort of, you know, these, these patrons and so on.
00;48;48;02 - 00;49;14;18
Rob Lee
And, you know, I know for me, I was still going to make what I was going to make because I've I'm at a stage where I can do that, but it's not easy. And I had to put in almost the, the good, better best of it. I was like, I'm doing the good version of it, there's a better version of it and there's a best one, and both of those require a bit more travel and a bit more funds to really blow out in and stretch out what the intent is.
00;49;14;20 - 00;49;32;17
Rob Lee
And I find like there is a times a a hollowness with damn, I wish I could do this in that way. And that's one of those things that I really think about and I worry about, which is it is a segue into the sort of next question, like, I'd love to get your insights on a few things here.
00;49;32;17 - 00;49;50;21
Rob Lee
Like, I think about the Jerry Salt's, you know, like, quote, our critic around, you know, great artists like always like worry. And whether it's about their work, whether it's about the merit of their work. And I think about that, you know, a lot when I'm doing this. Does podcasts even matter? Does anybody care? No one's asking me to make this.
00;49;50;24 - 00;49;54;25
Rob Lee
What do you worry about? How do you cope?
00;49;54;28 - 00;50;22;10
Zoe Lintzeris
I can tell you what I used to worry about. And then I can tell you what I currently worry about. And honestly, I think it was due to the location shift. My work is in New York versus my worries here in Baltimore. So my art, practice started out in New York. I was in my first group show in 2015, summer 2015, actually July 2015, which is crazy to think about at a lovely place on Atlantic Avenue called Clover's Fine Art Gallery.
00;50;22;17 - 00;50;41;21
Zoe Lintzeris
I had no idea what I was doing. I was just it was a place where I walked in and just talked to the woman. She's like, yeah, you can be. I was like, what is going on? But I think the worries that came with that were, oh my God, do people like my work? What am I doing?
00;50;41;21 - 00;51;07;28
Zoe Lintzeris
Is this amateur hour? I just care about what they say. How does this look to others? We could definitely unpack that with a lot of personal stories, but we won't go there at this time. But that was that was a fixation for me. I was like, how are people responding to this? And actually at that, the opening night of that exhibition at that gallery, there were these two women standing in front of one of my pieces, and this woman had her arms crossed, and she was like, I could have done that.
00;51;07;28 - 00;51;31;12
Zoe Lintzeris
Like literally said this. And I was just kind of standing a couple of feet from her, and I was just crushed and then just kind of had a swig of the champagne and just walked off because I was like, oh, she's right. Right. Like I just kept questioning a lot. Yeah. Other worry, I had their money bills. I quit my corporate life and then just dove into freelance life.
00;51;31;15 - 00;52;09;23
Zoe Lintzeris
In 2016, started my website, started everything, started doing food photography. She bought my own camera, started teaching art randomly to children. I had no experience in any of this, but bills had to be paid. So I was literally working like three jobs, all the time, and then trying to make art and then just trying to work anywhere that would have me and sometimes get paid egregiously low wages for what I was doing in this in the, under the lens of like, exposure, you know, well, this for, you know, whatever.
00;52;09;26 - 00;52;26;01
Zoe Lintzeris
Anyways, so that all happen. And then I was like, New York ain't for me anymore. Moving back home. So came back here. The worries with Baltimore. Whereas it's kind of the small town where in fact, I'm really gonna call it as it is, where I was like, okay, I have like some friends here from high school, which is great.
00;52;26;01 - 00;52;48;05
Zoe Lintzeris
I'm happy to reconnect with them. I'd like to make some new friends, you know, that make art and or don't make art, you know, just cool people. That would be nice. But everyone knows everyone here, so I just need to be mindful of, like, just like, you know, everyone. Just everyone. I feel like I don't have to expand too much on that.
00;52;48;05 - 00;53;12;06
Zoe Lintzeris
And I was like, you know, gallery owners also are in this band who are also doing this and running this restaurant and then, you know, teaching this yoga class and you're like, okay, so it was like just trying to find community, but commune with like minds and be respectful. Not that I'm a disrespectful person, I don't think, but like just being aware of the very different environments I was in.
00;53;12;08 - 00;53;34;00
Zoe Lintzeris
I would say that was probably those were like the biggest worries I had. I mean, bills are always a worry who's not worrying about bills these days? But like, at least it's not like the New York height of financial, fear that I used to have, but and, and also probably currently just maybe having my work out there a little more.
00;53;34;00 - 00;53;56;07
Zoe Lintzeris
I'd like to have it out in some spaces a bit more, but in a good way. I don't have a ton of work because a lot of it has sold, so I'm really happy about that. I'll just. I'll leave it at that. Like all original stuff, I don't really do prints. I'm trying to look into that, but like a lot of my original paintings have sold, which is nice.
00;53;56;10 - 00;54;22;18
Rob Lee
That's that's a win. And that made that might come up as a, it might come up as a rapid fire question. So I have this last question I want to ask you, and, you know, obviously, you know, you're working in arts and health. So bridging that gap between artistic practice and well-being. So from your perspective, what are the most profound and often overlooked, overlooked ways that art can contribute to individual and community health?
00;54;22;20 - 00;54;47;05
Zoe Lintzeris
Well, let me start with the obvious. Is that art? I it's the thing I always say in like lectures or whatever, which is like art is what makes us human. And that we're the only species that can actually be creative, but also be empathetic and utilize those to like things of what we feel to like, come together through dance, through song, through painting, through theater, whatever.
00;54;47;07 - 00;55;18;05
Zoe Lintzeris
So it naturally brings us together. That's the obvious. I think that the thing that is has been historically overlooked, but is now really coming, to the forefront of research and just being talked about in the news a lot. Is that how art brings you together? If you're feeling discombobulated, if you're feeling like just kind of fragmented, lost, confused, and your life's journey and your path, if something traumatic suddenly happened to you and you don't know where to go, art can bring you back together.
00;55;18;05 - 00;55;39;05
Zoe Lintzeris
It will take time, but it is that wonderful outlet that can serve, and it's in the most archaic sense of making you feel human and whole again. And I think that is what's been again, historically overlooked, but is now really coming to light with a lot of studies and is being put out there in the news that which I, appreciate.
00;55;39;08 - 00;55;59;01
Zoe Lintzeris
And it also provides ritual and routine. Again, you know, the crossing off of the calendars, so to speak. That's like the professional thing. But like, even if you just want to make art for the sake of of art, you know, if you want to play guitar for 45 minutes when you get home from that, like, you know, commute, that slog of a commute like, that's you, my friend.
00;55;59;01 - 00;56;23;29
Zoe Lintzeris
Like, you can do that. Like enjoy it. That's your ritual. That's your routine. That's what's going to help you de-stress. Like ritual and routine is so important with art making too. It's it's it's a meditation for your soul. It's like it's meditation. But again, it's really connecting on so many things, the physicality of it, how your mentality is responding to the physicality of your art and then that spiritual component as well.
00;56;23;29 - 00;56;51;05
Zoe Lintzeris
So it's like this really holistic experience. And then I think it's also one of the other overlooked things from the community aspect is that it's a cyclical process of being like, hey, with this, we are establishing trust in making art together, which leads to sharing more, which leads to learning more, which leads to trusting more. And it just becomes a circle again.
00;56;51;05 - 00;57;01;05
Zoe Lintzeris
So it's like trust, share, learn. And then you just continue. And that's how you connect to people through art, I think. I hope that answers your question.
00;57;01;07 - 00;57;27;23
Rob Lee
No, no it does. That helps. And thank you. That's I think just more people need to be aware of then sort of the, the power of art. And I always joke about it is like, oh, how the seasoning, you know, I mean, it's just sounds delicious. And I think when you don't have, do you have something that feels like it's just like it feels like it's being moved and pivoted in a way of, I'm sure you see it because I know I do.
00;57;27;25 - 00;57;47;23
Rob Lee
Well, this is the art now, and everyone's starting to make sort of similar stuff. And I see it in podcasting. I see it and sort of talking with different artists or talking about arts of journalism or journalists rather. That is sort of this, this shift to making what sells, making what they believe is going to sell.
00;57;47;23 - 00;58;10;28
Rob Lee
But you start losing that individuality that's there, and then some of those other sort of benefits that comes from it. You like, I would imagine if you're making something that really speaks for you, it speaks to like what you care about, what you value. It has a message attached to it. You know, if it makes money, great, but you know, so to the satisfaction of you made something and it has that emotion, that person that's in it.
00;58;11;00 - 00;58;29;11
Rob Lee
But if you're like making something that's going to make a lot of money, but it's just like, oh, you kind of sold out a little bit here or you don't really care about this. The money, it eventually wears off. You don't care about it as much. And I think being able to think through those and think through the, the, the emotionality around it.
00;58;29;13 - 00;58;51;08
Zoe Lintzeris
Yeah. And to go off on that, it's like commodity versus necessity. Necessity. I mean, art has been commodified since civilization began across the world. Right? And but I mean, outside of the money aspect and artists being paid for, sometimes grossly and usually grossly underpaid, for what they create, the necessity is that it it has to come out.
00;58;51;08 - 00;59;12;17
Zoe Lintzeris
I touch on this every time. I mean, it has to come out of you just the most helpful way, probably, of expressing yourself, whether it's by yourself in the art you're making or with others, you know, so that in itself makes it a necessity. The commodity is like the second bit, you know, the first part is the necessity, like in essence, of having it come out of you.
00;59;12;19 - 00;59;29;18
Zoe Lintzeris
And then again, if it happens to make money, if you even want it to make money, like again, playing guitar after work, you're just strumming in your house, whatever. And and that's for nobody to hear. I mean, maybe the FBI is listening to you, but other than that, like through your phone, but not are we going to go there?
00;59;29;21 - 00;59;52;05
Zoe Lintzeris
We're going to go there. Okay. But but again, it's, it's that's just for you whether you want to modify that start your YouTube channel that that's on you, what have you. But I feel like there's also this push. It's part of the culture where it's like, well, in essence, you should be doing that. You should be wanting to get the work out there and potentially making that money in the million views and whatever.
00;59;52;05 - 01;00;11;02
Zoe Lintzeris
And it becomes that, like that tease, you know, the tease that may never be actually fulfilled. Even if you're like the top person in the world in the art you're making, it's just kind of the constant tease and draw, when in fact, maybe what has become your commodity should have just stayed your necessity.
01;00;11;04 - 01;00;13;06
Rob Lee
That's that's a micron right there.
01;00;13;08 - 01;00;24;06
Rob Lee
No no no no no no no no no no.
01;00;24;09 - 01;00;46;14
Rob Lee
So I think I can shift into the rapid fire portion I have four of these now. There was only two. So you earned two more. And as I was saying with everyone, you know how this goes with just as that reminder, you don't want to overthink these. You know, it's just sort of an extra glimpse, a little a little peek.
01;00;46;16 - 01;01;07;20
Rob Lee
So one is particularly truly I'll let you know that right now because it's really funny. But here's the first one. What's one book you'd recommend to someone curious about art, but has little to no knowledge in art history, or just the art world in general? Like something that you would say like this is your entry point, your gateway drug into art.
01;01;07;23 - 01;01;09;12
Zoe Lintzeris
01;01;09;14 - 01;01;16;29
Rob Lee
Gateway drug and art is a really good way to put that. Also, art is another thing that should be a thing, but I'm gonna leave that at where it's at.
01;01;17;01 - 01;01;24;23
Zoe Lintzeris
So doesn't relate to art per se. I or my brain powers like zero right now. I'm so sorry.
01;01;24;25 - 01;01;33;04
Rob Lee
It can relate, but if it's something that is a entry point to open up a conversation around art for someone who knows nothing about it.
01;01;33;06 - 01;01;55;13
Zoe Lintzeris
Okay. So I think this book is applicable to anything. Anybody who thinks anybody who works as the War of Art, by Steven Pressfield. Absolute classic. You can read it, like 30 minutes. That really changed the game for me because he was like a broke screenwriter for decades, living in his van or something like that type, you know, writing on his typewriter.
01;01;55;13 - 01;02;14;01
Zoe Lintzeris
And then I think The legend of Baker Vance, I've never seen that movie, by the way. Kind of like put him on the map. So, you know, he just talks about like, resistance. Now let's go back to that word, but like, as amateur hour, where it's like ego and resistance, like when you're an artist or when you're making anything.
01;02;14;01 - 01;02;31;20
Zoe Lintzeris
Once again, it doesn't have to necessarily relate to art, but like, art is part of the human experience, I think. So it's more of a book about being human, in essence, really, and how to overcome the resistance, which in essence is like kind of overcoming this question, not overthinking it.
01;02;31;22 - 01;02;35;22
Rob Lee
That's good, that's good. Actually, I actually have read that book too.
01;02;35;24 - 01;03;07;14
Zoe Lintzeris
Yes. And it's, it's it just it changes the game and like, just making you sit with, you know, be consistent, you know, ritual routine once again with whatever you do. It doesn't have to be writing a script or painting. But also the biggest thing he mentions at the end is like it is a disservice to your community and to yourself if you don't put it out there, like if you have these big ideas and you're sitting on them and you're so afraid, which is part of the resistance, you're doing yourself a disservice and that's unfair to you, but also your community.
01;03;07;14 - 01;03;26;23
Zoe Lintzeris
And that really stuck with me because it's like once you put it out there, it's it's liberated. You've been liberated. Like you feel you've let it go. You know, you've birth the the idea baby, so to speak. It's out there. You can't do anything about it anymore. And that was like such an incredible piece of information. Again, not necessarily related to art.
01;03;26;25 - 01;03;47;07
Zoe Lintzeris
Yeah. Like just birthing ideas and putting them out there whether you want it to open, like, I don't know, an organic corner store in West Baltimore. And that was your dream, but you're just sitting on it's like, just do it. Like just I mean, I know it's easier said than done, but like, rather you put it out there and try to try to go for it rather than just sit on it.
01;03;47;10 - 01;03;49;01
Zoe Lintzeris
And then the idea dies.
01;03;49;03 - 01;04;07;25
Rob Lee
You know, often I, I'm an idea guy and often I just throw out ideas. I may have mentioned 1 or 2 during this conversation, and it's always a win for me. Like, I don't have any kids, but I do this because, like, yeah, yeah, my son's because I just see my ideas popping up in other places and or from being, modest.
01;04;07;25 - 01;04;17;09
Rob Lee
I'm like, oh yeah, good ideas. Everyone has good ideas. You know, good ideas should go to anyone. That's also you should, you know, cite me on air, you know, just, you know, put that, you know, bibliography. Right. You know.
01;04;17;12 - 01;04;38;24
Zoe Lintzeris
And these and these paintings behind me are like slow births. So it's like, you know, they're just they're they're getting there, you know, they're not ready yet, but they're getting there. But at least it'll be off my chest, so to speak, like these ideas I've had for a while. But now when they're done and I'll know when they're done, like you putting this podcast up a podcast episode out is like, you know, there's just it's a release.
01;04;38;24 - 01;04;44;12
Zoe Lintzeris
It just needed to be done according to you. And I think that's the most important thing.
01;04;44;15 - 01;04;49;20
Rob Lee
Here's the next trolling point. What is the ideal temperature of one's apartment?
01;04;49;22 - 01;05;07;22
Zoe Lintzeris
78 degrees and cooler 67. In the winter? You're asking an Aquarius this and you're an Aquarius, too. And if I had been really smart in science class, I would have been a meteorologist. Scientist? This is all I got is temperature. But. So, yeah, 70 degrees summer, 67 winter.
01;05;07;24 - 01;05;11;04
Rob Lee
I thought you'd attack that one pretty quickly. So shout out to you.
01;05;11;07 - 01;05;13;18
Zoe Lintzeris
I came for that quick. Rob, I'm.
01;05;13;21 - 01;05;29;06
Rob Lee
That's that's that's great. You mentioned, earlier, towards towards the end of the main conversation, selling some work. To me, that's those are wins. How do you like to celebrate a win?
01;05;29;08 - 01;05;45;14
Zoe Lintzeris
Not overthinking. Usually it's around friends. Usually the work has been, in a show. And if that happens, I'm like, we should go out. We're like, once the show ends or the opening night concludes, if it happens to sell that night, great. Like, I want to, like, celebrate with my friends because they also made it happen.
01;05;45;14 - 01;06;04;20
Zoe Lintzeris
Like, we kind of did this together, you know, especially the collective, as I've been mentioning. Sometimes I've had it's rare, but people have contacted me through my website. I know I really said that like, that doesn't happen, but it's it's rare. Or friends of friends. Rather they'll reach out on Instagram, be like, I really like this piece.
01;06;04;22 - 01;06;28;14
Zoe Lintzeris
Actually, I'll share this story with you. Was that earlier last year? I would say a prolific Baltimore artist spouse, who I no connection with, like, reached out to me on my Instagram and was like, hey, my partner really likes, what, you paint or, like, this object that you paint. It's like her favorite thing. I'd like to buy the work for her.
01;06;28;16 - 01;06;49;14
Zoe Lintzeris
And I was like, whoa, cool. I had no idea you had access to my Instagram. I were just like, you know, I guess maybe the partner showed it to him. Whatever. But, any who, it transpired, and I was really flattered and grateful because I actually really loved that piece. And it took a while to make and it was, again, a labor of love.
01;06;49;14 - 01;07;12;00
Zoe Lintzeris
I didn't expect it to go anywhere. This is part of my What a Drag series, which was about me, quitting smoking. I guess that's something I could have mentioned. Like what's happened, I have I haven't smoked anything since April 2023. Right. Crazy. Given the times we're in, like, I like, chew on pens religiously. But yeah. So that was part of that series.
01;07;12;00 - 01;07;29;09
Zoe Lintzeris
And actually most of that work, well, a print from that work and then two originals sold. I have two originals left. So I was really proud of that series, which is crazy because it's like cigarets and Food and drink, and I did not think anybody would resonate with that. But but again, to our point, it had to come out.
01;07;29;16 - 01;07;41;26
Zoe Lintzeris
It didn't even make sense. I was like, this seems funny and kind of quirky, and we need some levity in this world. And I literally photographed a slice of burger cake. Have you ever had burger cake? Like a burger cake?
01;07;42;00 - 01;07;42;28
Rob Lee
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01;07;43;05 - 01;08;03;14
Zoe Lintzeris
Hey, buy it from Lexington Market. Schlepped it in my bag on my bike back home. Got the cigaret, put it in the cake, photographed it, used it as my reference. And that became the first painting of that series. So it was like Baltimore Connection meets Zoe's horrible habits. And someone, yeah, someone hopefully will resonate with it.
01;08;03;20 - 01;08;30;07
Rob Lee
Know that's that's great. Just the cigaret. It's just like. Yeah. So now that's good. That's good. So here's the last one I wanna hit you with. So we all have a certain fit or certain color that we like to wear when we're around in the sort of art space. So when I was in New York, in May, I had a few interviews and, did all of the sort of stuff I was making the rounds.
01;08;30;07 - 01;08;35;15
Rob Lee
Right. And I just felt compelled to wear black and linen for some reason.
01;08;35;18 - 01;08;37;05
Zoe Lintzeris
Linen. Well, okay.
01;08;37;05 - 01;08;49;02
Rob Lee
I went to the J.Crew store and got myself an Irish linen shirt, because the shirt I got got a ketchup stain on it, and I was like, this ain't going to work. I can't do an interview to catch up. Stain. That's not going to work. Also, why am I have a ketchup? I don't have a ketchup on a hot.
01;08;49;04 - 01;09;00;09
Rob Lee
Who am I so, you know, an opening at a, you're checking out work. What is the predominant color or the predominant fit that you're inclined to wear?
01;09;00;11 - 01;09;22;17
Zoe Lintzeris
Oh, black. Always. Probably what I'm wearing now, which is a jumpsuit, like some kind of onesie. Or like, I don't know, sounds really basic. Pants top. I like some. I've been in the patterns a bit more. Also, I wear a lot of black in the winter and leather. That's the old New York. But I've always. I mean, if you talk to any of my high school friends, I feel like I've always worn black.
01;09;22;19 - 01;09;36;09
Zoe Lintzeris
Just kind of as, like a facade. Like just. I feel like just like, like dark and stormy inside. And I'm just like, oh, I'm in a mood, you know? It's just kind of like, I like Daria, I don't know, I've been compared to Daria a lot. It's.
01;09;36;14 - 01;09;38;14
Rob Lee
Do you have very dark hair, though?
01;09;38;17 - 01;10;02;08
Zoe Lintzeris
To be it's getting lighter. I'm getting a streak, which is kind of cool. Gray streak. I'm trying to embrace that. But I would definitely say black. I guess it's just classic. It's easy. But somewhere I tend to embrace a little more color, to be fair. Especially in, in Baltimore. Like, I just I don't feel the need, just to be frank, to, like, wear a certain thing.
01;10;02;08 - 01;10;18;20
Zoe Lintzeris
I do feel when I was in New York, there was the need. I was also like, you know, ten years younger, like to CNBC. Not that I was anybody. It was just kind of a reaction to the environment you're in. And here it's like, hey, I'm going to be seeing friends. So like I want to look cute. You know, I'm going to try.
01;10;18;20 - 01;10;42;11
Zoe Lintzeris
But also I'm like, I'm good, you know? And I like a little pattern here and there. Got my whoops. Usually those are on I like the silver jewelry a lot. Maybe some, like, platform sandals. I do like heels. I still wear heels a lot. It's kind of crazy. I don't know why. But I've also been embracing sneakers a lot more because of my job.
01;10;42;11 - 01;10;56;07
Zoe Lintzeris
Like, I'm on my feet all day, like teaching, kids in a hospital. So, you know, it's like I'm. I'm on the go a lot. So sneakers I've been embracing. So, like, kind of like the casual fancy look, I don't know, I never feel like wearing.
01;10;56;09 - 01;11;14;18
Rob Lee
Our champion on two things, and then we'll close out. I remember throwing on every now and again, especially in the winter. And winter is my time, you know, for a couple of reasons. But weather is my time. And I remember I got this giant, like, UGG, like teddy bear coat and ended up, like, wearing that to a few different occasions.
01;11;14;18 - 01;11;28;25
Rob Lee
And I ran into people who I know were like curators. I was like, damn real good out here in these streets. I was like, this thing, this is nothing. This is nothing. Just being really overindulgent. But I was like, I hit, I hit, I hit on this fit. I was like, I was just trying to get this fit off.
01;11;28;27 - 01;11;33;04
Rob Lee
And, And I think I hit the genius with it. Yeah.
01;11;33;06 - 01;11;33;29
Zoe Lintzeris
Yeah.
01;11;34;01 - 01;11;48;27
Rob Lee
And, the other thing, like, which is a recent addition, I got, like my ears, one of my ears pierced for the first time in like, a number of years. And I have, like, a goofy hoop. So the running bit is going to be I'm going to try to have an fboy earring before the end of the summer.
01;11;48;29 - 01;12;05;06
Rob Lee
Or or because, you know, or I'm going to have like a friggin, like, feather hanging out of there, Mr. T style, and just see how long I can get away with it before it just becomes my gimmick because, you know, like for you to be a successful podcaster, you gotta have a gimmick for an artist. I've seen artists, we have gimmicks.
01;12;05;08 - 01;12;29;21
Zoe Lintzeris
Everyone has a bit, I think. I don't know, I've been wearing, like, the same silver bangles for the last nearly 20 years. I don't know, people hear me before they see me. Not my voice, but like just the jewelry I'm wearing, I don't know, but I like I think these statement pieces in a way, are really important. Like one of my favorite directors, Lina Vert mueller, R.I.P. great director had these statement white glasses like white.
01;12;29;25 - 01;12;45;24
Zoe Lintzeris
And I always like white frames. And I always wanted that. And I love quirky work. But when I moved to Baltimore and saw, yeah, the signature white glasses, I was like, oh man, now I know if I start wearing that, I'm going to be a total like, I'm going to be seen as a total copycat. But I really wanted to just be like Lina Vert mueller.
01;12;45;27 - 01;13;00;09
Zoe Lintzeris
Anyway. And so props to quirky. But yeah, I was, like, I was like, okay, I need I kind of need a statement piece, but I'm just going to go with the bangles and the hoops and the silver and the the black and just kind of call it a day.
01;13;00;11 - 01;13;23;06
Rob Lee
I'm going at night now. You're going to make me troll. I'm going to get it because I, I had clear frames briefly and I was wearing those and I just as, I forget they described, there's one point when an NFL is so goofy and related, but when Joe Flacco had like, the wild like Joe Handlebar mustache and I remember someone was like, he doesn't have enough hair on his ass to have that mustache.
01;13;23;09 - 01;13;46;08
Rob Lee
That's how I felt about wearing those clear frames. I was like, I don't know if I can do this. So I sent them back to Warby Parker, but I might dive into it partially to troll and confuse people, because even now and he says it, I am six for quirky. Is five 9 or 510 or something. And and he was just like, I don't know how people get this confused.
01;13;46;08 - 01;13;52;24
Rob Lee
So I might get those glasses again to see if it still happens just to troll my God.
01;13;52;24 - 01;13;56;23
Zoe Lintzeris
I mean, why not? Right? Small to let's see what happens.
01;13;56;25 - 01;14;14;07
Rob Lee
That's that's that's what it is. That's what it is. So that's kind of it for the conversation today. We've covered a lot. We've got into the weeds, which is good. It's good to get into the weeds, especially with the Aquarius that's coming together. So in these final moments, there are two things I want to do. One, I want to thank you for coming back on to the podcast.
01;14;14;07 - 01;14;30;26
Rob Lee
Truly a treat, truly a pleasure. You're always welcome to come on and to, want to give you the space and opportunity to share with the listeners where they can check you out. Social media, that website that you claim that no one visit is visited, but they do. So please, the floor is yours.
01;14;30;28 - 01;14;49;05
Zoe Lintzeris
Well, that website just happens to be my name, which is Zoe Lens. There is A.com. You can check out my, past photographic projects and just current happenings and the whole arts and health section, which I think is just as important as the artwork itself. I'm on LinkedIn. There's only one me in the world, as far as I know.
01;14;49;08 - 01;15;10;14
Zoe Lintzeris
There's a wonky headshot on there so you can find me there. And then Instagram, which is Z lint, Z. So like Z lint on the floor, Z it is a private account. Now, just out of respect for my current job, I have to keep all social media private. So, you can follow me. Probably follow you back.
01;15;10;16 - 01;15;11;27
Zoe Lintzeris
Yeah, that's really it.
01;15;11;29 - 01;15;27;05
Rob Lee
There you have it, folks. I want to, again, thank Zoe Lintzeris for coming back on to the podcast. And for Zoe. I am probably saying that there is art, culture and community in and around your neck of the woods. You just have to look for it.
01;15;27;07 - 01;15;27;12
Rob Lee
You.