The Truth In This Art with MC UllNevaNo

Welcome to the Truth in Us Art. Thank you for tuning in to my conversations at the intersection of arts, culture, and community. I am your host, Rob Lee, and, we're brought to you with the support of the fine folks at the Robert w Deutsch Foundation. Thank you for your generous support. Today, I am, super excited to welcome my next guest as part of this interview series around Black Music Month.

Today, I am interviewing a Baltimore based emcee renowned for his dynamic freestyling and influential collaborations in the hip hop community. Please welcome, UllNevaNo Welcome to the podcast.

Yo. Hey. Thank you, brother Rob. Thank you so much, man. I'm excited about this.

I mean, let's get into it, yo. Like, yeah. Yo.

And and I always say, because I've been doing it more of a a habit, right, of, you know, when I talk to people and I get the visual thing,

when I want

glasses, I gotta shout out, man. Shout out to the other bespectacled brother on the other end.

End. Hey. Hey. We in here, yo. You know, they were my brave ass on fire.

You know what I'm saying? Like, we in here.

Hell, yeah.

I embrace my glasses, yo. Like and then you can you can switch it up, you know, with I, man, I got a few frames, yo. So Man,

I got 3 pair. These are my art guy glasses, the Warby Parker jacket. Then I got, like, these boujee ass Yves Saint Laurents. I just switched out wild.

Gotta switch it out. Why?

So before we get too deep in the conversation,

I

wanna give you the space to to introduce yourself. And and and the reason I do this, like, I have my intro. It's a cut and paste. You probably read that somewhere. You probably wrote that somewhere.

But, often, I think introductions and and artist statements kinda fall short. It doesn't really get the essence of the person. So tell us a little bit more about you and your work. Give us the the rundown, please.

MC, you'll never know, man, for Baltimore. My story is it's kinda crazy, yo. Like, I'm I'm not your typical, you know, Sam, MC that I grew up in, like, one city, and I developed the, you know, saying the love for this hip hop. You know what I'm saying? I was born in Baltimore.

My father was in the military and moved, you know, saying myself, my brother out, Fort Raleigh, Kansas. And then, from there, man, just being around, like, so many different, like, walks of life. Like, you know, with military base, you got everybody from all over. You know what I'm saying? One melted by so many cultures.

So, eventually, I started falling in love with the hip hop. And my pop, he would come back from a deployment, and he would just have, like, these big luggages of just mixtapes, yo. Like, all these mixtapes, bro. But but mind you, before that, yo, like, he he started, giving me, like, tape cassettes. Like, just to just play around where he would just give me he wouldn't tell me what the music the artist was.

He would just give me stacks to tape cassettes. Allow me to figure it out. You feel what I mean? Like and from then, I remember it was, like, heavy d, too short, like, shit that I I I I wouldn't, like, listen to like that today. I appreciate it, but I understand that.

But then to the mix tape show, it was just Tony touch. It was, it was a mix tape, I think, 55, and it was straight for bootleg, but it was just like it had, like, 200 songs on the tape, yo. It had all these freestyles on there, man. And, that's when I heard Wu Tang's Triumph for the first time. Nice.

And, you know what I'm saying? When I heard that, I'm like, oh, wow. Like, I I know that, like, cast a rap like this. You know what I'm saying? Like, that just opened up a whole, like, different, you know, rabbit hole.

You know what I'm saying? Because I was so used to a pot raising me, like, funk and soul and stuff like that. But then when I I got it's you know what I'm saying? I opened up to that shit. That shit changed my whole it was just like, yo, how did these dudes rap like this?

It was just like one big science project. And all that makes sense as well was, beast from the east. They had cannabis, a plus, Redman, and I think, freaky tie on there. Or I do was it mister Cheeks? Yeah.

I think it was mister Cheeks from the Lost Boys on there. But, yo, when I heard cannabis' verse and red man's verse, I was like, yo, I want you rap like them. Like, it was it was it was it was over after I heard that. And and then it was, you know, that that sense of, wanting to wanting to get people to know about this shit. Because I felt like by me, the discovery now, I'm like, yo, this is some whole new shit.

Like, I'm around my friends. They're listening to the typical, you know, stuff that's on TV, you know, or, you know, rap city. And I'm like, yo, are y'all hearing this shit? And they they they looked at me like, yo, this dude's a nerd. Like, nobody listens to that shit.

And, but I was still, like, dabbling, like, between, you know, the underground and what's what's popping on, you know, television and all that. So I was still trying to figure it out, man. And then, from there on, man, it was just, I met all these different walks of life of people that came into my life that actually kinda molded me into loving hip hop, man. Like, all from, like, kinda like being a rebel because, you know, I was raised in a household where it wasn't no cussing. So I would go to school and cash out the stacks of, like, the double XL and Source magazines.

I'm like, yo. Let me hold that. Let me get that off

of you.

You know what I'm saying? Just to just to study, just to learn.

You know

what I mean? And then, when I, when I was a freshman in high school, just to mind you, all this was saying I was in Kansas. I stumbled upon a big L story. Like when I heard about big L, I just kept, you know, seeing, like, you know, this guy's story in magazines, man. And I was so intrigued of, like, how nice he was.

It was tragic how you know, what what happened to him, but just how how much praise he was getting from his skill level of his pen. That's what I was most impressed of. And I'm just like, yo, I need to I need to I I I wanna study this dude. I wanna you know what I'm saying? Like, really figure out how how his paint works, man.

And, I remember when I see the advertisement, excuse me, for the big picture.

Yeah.

Remind you, I couldn't listen to any words with, you know, any happens with customs. So I holler at my mom's. I was like, yo. We need to go to Walmart just to see. I didn't know they had it.

I was just like, yo. Let's see if Walmart has this album. Yeah. You know, the edit the the edited version. Which was it bad?

Like, the edited version of the big, big picture album wasn't that bad, yo. Because you know some Warbucks albums, yo. They'll fuck up some sirocci shit.

100%. 100%. Let me let me let me intersect real quick. Yeah. Interject rather.

1, I I will say, like, I had the same vibe earlier, like, with, you know, we would we would have, like, different CDs in the crib, and my parents were just, like we we had, like, a freaking, like, old coogee rap and nice and smooth for whatever reason in the crib. And I'm like, I got the CDs of these. How much were these when they came out? These, you know. And I remember I have an older cousin.

It was one of those times where he came came through, and this was maybe 93, 94. He bought over Ready to Die. And

Oh, wow.

He was just, like, he was telling me talk about me and my brother. He's like, yo, they can't listen to this. This is wild. And, and the last thing I'll say because you mentioned, you know, Triumph. Right?

The, Wu Tang Forever was a birthday present for me. It was like my 11th birthday.

Oh, wow.

And I got the double CD for circuit city the double the double tape, rather, from Circuit City as were my dad, because my dad's a jazz guy. He was like, yo, that's a lot of wine in our hair. I was like, yo, let me live.

Wow. Wow.

So I I got you. I got you.

That's dope, yo. And his story's like that, man. Stories like that. But, yeah. With with the whole big house situation, I remember my freshman year.

I listened to that album, the big picture, like constantly, like, that's all I would listen to. It was that album and, Talukwali and, high-tech reflection eternal. Like those 2 hours, my freshman year, like, it's all I listened to, like, constantly. And then, after that, yo, I ended up my father ended up getting some orders to, California. So I was already rhyming, but I was, like, I was freestyle.

I was doing a lot of cyphers.

You know

what I'm saying? Still kinda rusty, whatever. You know? It was the beginning stages, but I was out there. So then when I moved to California, man, it was a whole another beast.

And when I moved to Cali, it was like it was literally like gladiator school. Like, that's all they did when I went to Cali. The before the bell, first bell rung. Cass is battling, stifling. It was I never seen anything like it.

It was, Barstow, California. Shout out to people that was Barstow with Yermo and all that, man. And how I I learned from, like, this Asian dude that taught me how to, like, freestyle. Like, he told me how to, like, stay on point, all these different techniques, man. And it was just, wow.

Like, I never seen anything like it where I I've never been in a in a atmosphere. You know? I'm just wanna go to my locker, yo. And my cast is like like, 30 dudes in a circle just going in, just freestyle, like, off the top. And you and you will sit there and you will get clowned if he was coming with a written.

Like, you will get clowned on. You know what I mean? So, just from now on, man, I ended up moving to, I was only in Barstow for, like, maybe, like, 3 months. That was, like, 2,001. And then I ended up going to Calif, Urimore, California, Silver Valley, and that's when I really started.

Like, I was, like, the man. That's how I really started, like, cooking and just battling it just constantly, man. And then from there on, yo, I was always just battling, battling, battling even when I got to Kansas State. Like, I ain't go to class like that. I was just robbing.

Like like, it was just one of the things where I was taking it so serious to the point where it was kinda getting the way of, like, my studies too. You know what I'm saying? And I was playing ball on top of that, man. But, yeah, yo. And then from there on, yo, after my 1st year in college, I moved back to Fort Irwin, California.

Because I was I went to Kansas State for a year. So, after that, my pop was deployed in Iraq, and, he hit me up. He was like, yo, man. You gotta you gotta do something, man. You gotta you gotta figure something out.

And then and still then, I was, like, still, like, pen is still working on stuff. I met a good friend. I was in the military who gave me my name. You'll never know. Shout out to mischief.

Just just that perseverance, just keep just just to keep going, yo, and, like, just learning about, like, different types of MCs once I came back.

Yeah.

My my freshman year in college, my father was just like, yo. You gotta figure out something. So I was like, you know what? I'm a move back to Baltimore because it was close to New York. Yeah.

You know, I was trying I wanna get his music shit a shot a a shot. You know what I'm saying? Like, any means possible, because back then, I was trying to get a deal. You know what I'm saying? Like, I was trying to get, like, signed, yo.

So I was I figured y'all good at battling. Let me just, you know, take it up a notch, man. Came out to Baltimore, and, again, it was just one of the things Rob from the experience that, you know, from Fort Fort Riley to Cali, the layers of emcees, now it's on, like, steroids now because Casa Baltimore are like, I don't think people people rarely, really underestimate the talent that's out here. Yo. Like, it was a slaughterhouse when I came out here, and I really it was just one of the things where Cass just had to keep me on point, man.

It was, like, a constant thing. Like, went back then, like, 2007 Yeah. It was just always something to do. Open mics, ciphers, battles. It was every day of the week.

It was always something to do in Baltimore.

That's that's one of the things. That's one of the things, like and and I definitely have this this question that's coming up later because we we have a mutual connection. So I I want to not necessarily switch gears, but insert this in there. You know, so in talking about sort of like what that process, because I hear the pin, I've heard you know, the influences that are there, and definitely it's heavy on battle, and I can, you know, I can relate in that, you know, going to high school here, going to college here, you're around it, and I was just like, yo, and going to Citi, you know, everybody who would get access to any of the recording gear, any of the sort of, like, instruments that were there, they were trying to make beats. They were like, yo, I know this is a class for, like, band.

I'm trying to make beats, fam, and I'm trying to Wow. Keep. That's how wild it was. So if you will, talk a bit about sort of your process in in crafting a song and putting together a song from sort of like concept to, like, sort of the execution around it?

Man, usually, man, I won't start actually writing until I have the instrumental. Mhmm. You know what I'm saying? Like, I'll sit with a, instrumental. If I'm working on a project with 1 producer and he sent me a pack of beats, I'll sit with an instrumental for, like, for a week.

You know what I'm saying? Just listening to it, listen to it, just vibe into it. And then from there on, whatever I'm feeling, that's just, you know, saying the the start of just making something special, yo. Yeah. Yo.

Like and then usually sometimes it varies, yo. It depends, like, because I'm always writing, and I'll take bits and pieces from, like, wherever I'm feeling, like, that wrote on my phone. That might be the the start of it. It may be a line or 2. And then from, like, maybe later on that week, I have something.

You know what I'm saying? Like, it's one of them things. Just just kinda, like, depending on the instrumental, yo. You know? But if it's like a a banger, like, if I get something that's like crazy, I'm right on the spot immediately.

Oh, yeah.

Immediately. There there is a I feel like, you know, this is sort of the lane I'm in. I do the podcast thing. It it orders on journalism, the storytelling, whatever. But there were 3.

You know how you have, like, a fork in a row, so you could've won this way, you could've won that? Right. There's a couple different forks in a row. There was a you there is a variant out there, to be nerdy. Right?

There's a variant out there of me as a rapper, me as a comedian, and me as a painter. That that is literally the different variants out there that exist, and you know every now and again and I was my my partner. She's an English major, right and okay this nerdy ass line, and she was like, that is a multilayered rap line. Like, she she was born the same year that rap was a thing. She was like, yo, I'm at the same age as rap.

And I'm like, hell yeah. So I threw that line to her. You know, I happened to be at some Jamaican spot, You know, when I was thinking about it, I pulled out the phone, quickly typed it up. I was like, no, that is that's like a triple entendre. That's gotta be in there.

And I told her, she was just like, alright. That's real wise. That's real good good. She's like, that's you're not gonna have a full song. She's like, that rap stuff for you is done.

I was like, yeah, 39. It's over. And and have rap hoop dreams that nearly 40. That's dead.

The the piggyback over that, you know what I'm saying, off the the the ageism. You know what I'm saying? I think that's not talked about enough, yo, because, yo, I'll be 38 this August. You feel me? And I've been doing this for a long, long time, yo.

You know what I'm saying? And it's just like I'm at the point where, I don't wanna give up on it because it's it's fun to me. You know what I'm saying? And it's it's to the point now that Cas is like in a in a forties, yo, that's making a a good living off of this, yo. You know what I mean?

Like Oh, you think it's like 40?

Yeah. Yeah. You can't make a good you you can't make a living off of this, yo. And I think, like, in the beginning, I have my times where I was like, yo, 30, I'm stopping. At 35, I'm stopping.

Like, I'm gonna put like a time limit like, yo, and then it's gonna pop off.

Yeah.

I'm quitting. I'm about to get me a career. But but also I

was trying

to account

and shit for a while.

Yeah. But yo, also it's like, yo, and I tell everybody this. Yo. Don't let, like, social media, yo. Don't let that rappers fool y'all.

When a lot of times out of 10, these rappers that are successful, they have a 9 to 5 too. You feel me? And that was, like, the perspective that, of course, that would be lovely to to live comfortably off of this. You know what I mean? That would be lovely, but majority, Cas is living you know what I'm saying?

They they it's because times are, yo. Cass is is living, having 9 to 5. But, also, the dope thing is, you know, there's so much freedom in in a way you can sell music now. You know what I'm saying? You don't need a label.

You don't need a machine. And so it's it depends on you of how much work you are you willing to put, you know what I'm saying, the press of your own merchant, this, that, and the third to to accumulate that money to keep your you know what I'm saying? That type of lifestyle going. You know what I mean? So, I I do feel that we we're living in, in a great time.

They call it the hip hop renaissance. I think we're living in a in a great time, yo, of music right now.

I think I think you're right in, you know, many ways in that that regard. Like, you know, there are there are opportunities that you're you're touching on where folks can be creative with how they're doing it. But Yeah. I think with any slice of creativity, any creative pursuit, you gotta wanna do it. You know, as you as you're saying,

you

know, you've probably, if not longer, been, you know, doing the rap thing, pursuing rap, pursuing music, probably as long as I've been doing this podcast thing. It's 2009 for me to now. Oh. And, you know, you see it, and I see sort of the parallels, and not everyone's gonna see those parallels of, you know, this this was a a genre, you know, rap was a genre that was for folks that look like look like us, you know, like music or what have you, and then you start seeing who's making the money off of it. But now when that opportunity to maybe do things that are still rap and then maybe sort of hip hop culture adjacent, like having sort of a platform, having a podcast that has those sensibilities, having different types of media, having, like, like film or what have you, things of that nature that are coming from a hip hop sensibility.

I think it's even broader than that, and those are people who have the business savvy and who have the mindset around it versus just, I'm I'm just gonna do the rap thing, you know. And I think Right. I think that right there is just like, yo, you you did the the the you did the grind thing, and now you're able to perhaps see some of these other interests that you have. So for you, you know, music is obviously there. What are some of the other sort of associated interests that you have creatively?

Like, you know, I I like when people have the visuals. I like when people have sort of, like, the branding that's that's on point when it comes to delivering their thing. It's like the music is there, but people eat with their eyes a lot of times, and I'm Right. Struggling to learn that with the podcast. So tell me about some of those sort of, you know, additional creative things that you're into that influenced you as a rapper.

Man, I'm really, really big on to individuals, man. I I feel like and I and I learned this from, the army, logic wise analyst, man, producer, partner of, our brand, Magnetic. And we just focus on, visuals and just in art. You know what I mean? With a lot of our projects that I've released, they're all connected to nineties basketball, which I have a passion for.

Yeah. So whenever we, and this is actually fun, man. Like, whenever we pushing a project, like, whenever the project soon the joint is mix and mastered, like, me and Logic, we're, like, brainstorming. Like, okay. How can we put this project out?

How can this rollout be something that people will pay attention to? So we go as far as, like, you know, looking and researching for clips here and there and try to, you know, intertwine that with visuals on and drop it on, Instagram. We love the VHS effect, yo. We do we definitely try to find stuff that's catered to, you know, what we grew up on, in the nineties. Well, especially for me, the way I push out stuff.

So, that's always the the dope and fun aspect of it, man. I know I'll be getting a lot of all logic's nerves because, like, my brain is always going. So he's, like, a real layback when he gets it done, but well, I I I I'll hit him with, like, rapid fire ideas. Like, man, more than, like, 3 times out of the day, yo. You know what I'm saying?

Just for, the rollout of a project, how do the artwork should look, or what should we do as far as, like, the color of the tape cassette that we're gonna sell for our merch. Like, I I really care, yo, because if I'm presenting a project to somebody, especially a physical aspect of it, I want them to be like, yo, bro. That verse game, the packaging, the way it's presented, that that means a lot. Yo.

It's it's it's a thing that that I think, and this this is a really good point. It means a lot. Like, if, you know, I I get I try to be supportive where where I can or what have you, and definitely either getting stuff from artists, like buying, like, prints, buying different things, what have you. And sometimes I'm just, like, I'm just gonna hit your Cash App. Alright.

Don't give me anything, and it's more so, like, I'm very selective of what I have in in my home. It's just a certain intention. So when there is an intent, it's like, I wanna I'm drug juggling 2 things. It's like, 1, supporting the creator, because I think that's important, but then, 2, also like does this fit in what I have in the crib? I got a lot of stuff in here like that's kind of cool.

Some of it I just like, okay, I think one of my friends might like this print or I think this thing that I got from this person, they might like it, but when someone is putting an intention and it clicks on that sensibility, like, you know, what you're describing, I was like, I like VHS effects. I like, you know, like, I like good things. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, one of the things I wanted to do with this, because there's something there's something retro about it is having a very, very, very, very exclusive one of 1 or one of 10 sort of interview, but put it on the on the tape and, like, send that because That's right.

Some of

the digital stuff almost becomes, like, that's fine. We got it, but, you know, having something that's a little different, it it gives me that vibe of the, that Wu Tang album, the one that's Yeah. What have you. It gives me that sort of vibe, and I think it's something important about exclusivity in this sort of almost disposable. That's the way that we've been sold.

It it's it's almost disposable. Absolutely. You just put it on Spotify. Hopefully, somebody sinks it, and then here's your $3 or whatever, but it's like there's intent in it, and it's something that's in in in article and an almost an archival piece. That's that's the sweet spot.

That's where you wanna be.

Yeah. Yeah. That's like my favorite. That's that's one of my favorite things of, when, I, when I'm releasing a a project, yo, like, after it's done, I'm always I'm always thinking about, like, okay. How can we put this tape cassette out, like, different colorways, the vinyl, stuff like that, yo.

Because again, you know, that's a high commodity and people, you know, they pay good money and it's a collector's item, yo. So I feel like every project I drop, man, is is a collector's item. So I always try to figure out ways to, you know, con you know, create some type of merch, you know, to master project.

What it describe for us that that feeling when you've completed that that project and and it has sort of that full stamp on it. It's just like it's it's it's like the did not line, right, from Yeah. Of American gangsters. It's just like, look. I endorse this.

This is Blue Magic.

Yeah. Yeah, man. Yo. Oh, man. It's it's definitely a overwhelming feeling.

After you finish a project. You're like, Like, literally, after a project is done, like, once it's, like, mixed master and it's put out to the world, like, usually, I'm like, oh, I'm always working. Every project I drive, I take a week off. Like, I don't I don't work on no music, no nothing. I take a week off to just just chill.

You know what I'm saying? People what people are saying. You know what I mean? Like, I just but the main thing is I got I need a break. I need a mental break.

I just need to just chill out, yo. But, yeah, man. That's that's the main thing I take, very serious is just my time and and just taking a break, yo.

It's it's one of those things where and and I've applied this to the thing that I do because I think it's, you know, something that can be applied in many areas. Even, you know, it's it's a line. Like, I used to listen to a lot of currency. Right? And Oh.

I was very hit this line. He was like, I I write my winner raps in June. And I was like, yo. Because it's that natural, you know, sort of influence where you have and I see it in podcasting because I I teach podcasting now. Right?

And I see you see those goofy clips on Instagram and it's like everything looks the same. There's nothing unique. There's nothing, you know, bespoke and artisanal about it. So how do you win, you know, being a person that's a hip hop hit, you're you're a fan of that. Not just I make music, but it's all you're you're in it.

How is it like, what sort of, like, guardrails do you put in that you don't have sort of, like, what's trending and what's popping, what's going on right now, even from from a music standpoint, but even from sort of the the overall culturally standpoint, how do you prevent that from, you know, inserting itself into what you do? Like, that what what do those challenges look like?

Like I like I was speaking on earlier, Rob, we're living in and that's what it's called it's called the hip hop renaissance. Right?

Yeah.

And, you know, cats like Rob Marciano who who started this, you know, drumless rap. You know what I'm saying? Caz rhyming over drumless beats. You know what I'm saying? Layered samples, all that ish, man, which is dope.

Like, that's the stuff that I I I love, yo. That's why I fell in love with, man. But, it it it the the the content is is a bit overwhelming, yo. Like and I I seen, a few DJs, this is like last month, yo, arguing about, you know, cats. I'm they they call them Griselda rap.

See, you know what I mean? And, like, all these cats are sending the DJs, like, the same the same stuff. You're talking about the same content, and you're rhyming on that same type of beat. You know what I mean? Like, give us something different.

And, and I I I kinda had a feeling that that was going to happen, yo, because, you know, people are are are going to follow what's what's trendy. They you know, shout out to Griselda, shout out to Westside, Gunn and all of that, yo, because a little bit of my influence would stem from them. You know what I'm saying? The way they boo you know, way they market their stuff, I got some of my ideas from them as well. So but, that's just what it is.

When you you can't there's no way of of avoiding it. So it's just like one of the things where it's bittersweet. We we we can't tell you, hey. Stop. You can't you can't continue to be doing that, but we do acknowledge that this is happening.

The the like, we do acknowledge that. And now it's a good thing that certain DJs are saying, yo. Stop sending us this stuff. Let's hear something else. You know, we we we heard it all before.

It it almost feels that that should be another rapper's name. Heard it all before. It almost it almost feels like AI, but as a person in that, yo, write me a rap. Write me, like, 48 bars that is reminiscent of this Griselda song, and it's like, yo, you are walling. Right.

You know, and and and then looking at it, you know, I I like that stuff. It definitely sets a mood for me, but when I go through and listen to what I'm listening to, I'm listening to some of the wildest stuff and enjoying that and and getting from that. And I'm like, yo, I look for the people that have some of the oddest samples, some of the things you're like, oh. Oh, like, you know, I'm not ashamed to say it. In a point, I was, I had a guy I follow.

He's, he does, sports commentary, and he's really funny. And he was listening to the shitty boys from, like, Detroit. And I was like, I like them and they sample all of these old freestyle songs. They don't get the samples cleared which makes me laugh because they're just scammers, But I was like, that's actually something. They're not great rappers per se, but it's like, I like this.

This is disposable, but it slaps And it's something that feels different, that feels off off center, what have you. And then when you have sort of those, collaborations that come in, they have those that Detroit flow that comes in there. And I'm like, okay, this is absolutely what that is and this is this hodgepodge and this vision. It all works. They have all of the basketball references.

It's basketball reference wrestling references throughout. I was like, this is great. They're all, like, children. They're, like, 20.

And Oh, wow. You know,

it's, like, I I like this stuff or what have you, and when someone puts a track on that seems real familiar, I'm, like, I could just get it from the person that did it already, the real person, the person that does the mask with it. You know, that's the one. So I got I got 2 more real questions for you before I go into those rapid fire ones. So let's see. We got the challenges.

I I wanna I wanna talk a little bit more about, like, sort of collaboration, whether it be, you know, from the branding standpoint, from the producer standpoint, as we as I touched on earlier, we have a mutual contact. Got Nick DeWanda. I went to school with him.

It was. I have Nick.

And, he briefly had me rapping. I I'll tell you something about this. So Nick in high school at at city, he used to wear echo all the time. So me looking up to him, my rap name was Nam Mecca, so I used to always wear Mecca. Looked up to him so much.

And I I was rapping. I used to have the composition books with all my rhymes in there. There's a few times teachers found it and then rated my raps, and I'm like, yo, this is wild. This is all like indirectly. But talk about, like, finding sort of those collaborative partners and, like, what is it about those connections that that really work?

Like, there are a lot of good people who make really dope music, who have a really good vision, but they might be dicks. It's like, I can't work with this person or their music is good, but I'm gonna work with them to this degree. Tell tell me about, like, that for you. Like, what does collaboration look like? What do you look like?

What do you look for from it?

Well, when when I first started, like, recording records, my first collaboration album, ever, rest in peace to my my best friend, the god knowledge. I'd rest in peace to that dude. Good dude, man. But, he was, like, the first dude that we did a whole album together, just 1 producer, 1 MC. And, just from that on, I was like, I I like this.

You know what I'm saying? Like, it was the sound is cohesiveness. It's just solid. It's and and and I I enjoyed the collaboration as far as just bouncing off ideas. You know what I'm saying?

Like, whether it be right or or wrong, we're collaborating. You know what I'm saying? I may feel like something is ill. You may not feel that. I may feel like this be they ill.

You may feel, you know, otherwise. You know what I'm saying? So, just from there on, yo, and the chemistry, from there. And then through him, I ended up leading with Elijah Marsalis. We've been cool since they like since 2008, man, and we've always been working on records.

Same thing feeling, yo. Like, just the the one solid sound and the cohesiveness. You know what I mean? And then from there on, like, once I started working with him, I was just like, you know what? Every project that I do, I wanna work with 1 producer.

You know, that that's whenever I'm purchasing beats, I'm not purchasing, like, a one off or someone. Like, no. It's either, like, 6 or however the package is. Let let's let's work. You know what I mean?

And I just I I just feel like if you you're working with 1 producer, yo, that that the music just sounds better, yo.

Yeah. I mean, you know, as I said earlier, you know, big fan of currency, and I'll say when I got on currency, it was probably covert coup.

Okay. That's that's the whole

wild from the south. Right? Yeah. Yeah. And it's something about that format that I really dig because it is regular collaboration and and and and and and and and I'll say it almost has that energy, like, when you bring in and it's granted, you know, you have big budgets and all of this different stuff and you bring in all of these different producers.

It's almost like the Yankees. It's like I could just buy whoever is like the beats. I don't know about these bars, though. Right. Sort of like this rapper, this producer, this emcee, this producer, it it aligns.

It's just like there is some thoughtfulness there. It's not just, hey, here's some things, you know, do what you do. It's just like, no. No. We collaborate.

We actually work together. Right. We note out this, like, artistic expression. That's I think that's what that feels like a bit more. That's dope.

Absolutely.

So I got I got one more real question, and this this is a nice way to tie back to one of the things we were talking about earlier. So could you speak on exploring and experimenting with with new techniques? Like, you know, in that, when do you know what to sort of, like, accept, like, okay, this is now part of my process, whether it be writing, whether it be sort of how you do a release, how you do your social media, whatever it may be, or when do you know when to abandon it? Like, when do you know when to insert it, and when do you know when to, like, nah, I just I tried. It ain't gonna work, play

Oh, man. That's a great question. Now we talking about, like, as far as, like, with, like, with writing as well, like, the process too. Okay.

Cool. Yeah.

Man, I always with every project, y'all, I'm always trying to work on, different techniques as far as, like, writing. You know what I'm saying? Whether it be, like, you know, try different double entendres and punch lines or layers, whatever. But in so many, like, techniques, I try to, you know, focus on 1 each day. You know what I mean?

Like, or sometimes I may just just freestyle it and just whatever hits me, I'm just writing it down, yo. But I have to write things down. You know what I'm saying? Like, I kinda take took the, like, the MF Doom approach, yo. I heard that I end up doing what he used to do is he used to write his rhymes on sticky notes, and he, like, put them all around, like, his room, whatever.

And then whenever he was ready to write a song, he would just take the sticky notes and put it together. You know what I'm saying? So that's what I I I kinda do is is, you know, I just take I got, like, the hundreds of hundreds of 1 liners, crazy personalized, like, in my phone. Like, you know what I mean? Like, stuff that you just don't think about on a daily basis, man.

When it comes, yo, you know how you get that thought? Yeah. And if you don't write that shit down

Mhmm.

That should yeah. Yo. So, you know, shout out to smartphones, man. But, that's why I I definitely be trying to work on. It's just trying to enhance my pain, man, because I I feel like I I definitely know I'm nice, but I feel like I still got you know what I mean?

I still got a chip on my shoulder a little bit. Yo. I feel like my pen isn't appreciated, yo, just yet. For real.

I hear you. And, having having the the the note, that's that's good. Having, like I'm always I I get made fun of because I always have either a notepad or something on I like writing it. I I can't, you know, like, the phone pulls it out. It's like, I'm gonna be self editing, and I was like, why did I put that goofy line in there?

I think

it was

too clean when you're or even, you know, for me, the version of me writing a rhyme, and I still occasionally write rhymes here and there, but, you know, for me, it's still writing down questions, something off the top like like that question. I just asked you that was something that I was like, yo, no, I want to know that I want to know that for someone like we always talk about process and all of this. It's just like, yeah. What are you in certain? What do you take out?

Like, how do you, like, like

Right. All of that.

Yeah. Either and

to speak on that, yo, it's like, I always because usually, it depends on my my mood, yo. 90% of the time, I'm not writing to the beat. Right? I'm just writing it, and then when I get to the beat, like, I have alright. This is the rhyme that I'm writing for for this beat, but I'm not playing it.

You know what I'm saying? I already know in my mind, yo, this is for this beat. Yeah. So then when I work on the ride, you know what I'm saying, see if I could be in that pocket, sometimes, yo, I'll say some shit and I'll be like, fuck. It doesn't fit.

Like and I get so angry, yo. Like, yo, this line was so sick, but it's not fitting. Those be the hurtful moments. And I don't know if we're a writer to a writer, those are hurtful moments, show, like, when you wanna use a line, he'd be like, oh, it's man. He'd be like, alright.

I could just put this bit in my back pocket, save it for another time. It ain't fit for this one.

And and and I'll I'll close on this because this is a this is a good good good thing where it was at one point where we had, I like I like to troll a little bit, and Okay. I was doing another podcast, and I was gonna do an interview. I was gonna do a lot of overdubbing. I was gonna do an interview, me and my my co host at the time. We were gonna interview ourselves and our rap personas.

That's what we were gonna do. And we did like 3 joints. We did 3 songs. I wrote the rhymes for both of us, and I was trying to match his sensibilities and all of this all of this different stuff or what have you, like something is this something he would say? And, it turned out to be decent.

It turned out to be decent, and, we just never went forward. So we had, like, basically 3 songs, 3 full length songs for a podcast that we were gonna do interviewing ourselves, and we just never really did it. So Wow. That whole process of trying to I talk a certain way, he talks a certain way, so trying to fit that in and think about how would someone else say this? Yeah.

I'm like, how could this to sound like me in this persona that's getting meta level d? This is inception level shit.

That's why. Yeah. That's why.

Yeah. It's you know, you you try to have fun with it. And, but, yeah, that's that's sort of that's sort of my my thinking there. And it's you know, I just like when people just get weird and they just, you know, I enjoy, for lack of a better term, the black weirdo. I enjoy that and I try to embrace that myself.

So I wanna move into these last 4 rapid fire questions.

Okay.

As I tell everybody, don't overthink these, you know. Alright. So this is the first one.

K.

When you recorded your first song so so think about, like, whenever you deem it, this is the first legit, you will never know joint, what was the biggest rapper of that year?

Wow. Yeah. Wow. Wow. I recorded.

Like, this is ever, like Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Ever? Like, my first song ever?

Yo. That's wow. Steve. Yo. It was, wow,

bro. Swinging.

Damn. That shit threw me for a loop. The yo. You know what? It was 50¢.

That's that's legit. That's legit.

It was 50¢. It was 50¢. I was going to say prodigy because like the first saw that I recorded to was a keep a thorough beat.

Oh, everyone had it like a beat. Yeah.

Yeah. Yo. But nah. Yo. It it it definitely I was gonna say Jay z because Jay z always had a good year.

You know what I mean? But, yeah, but definitely 50¢, yo.

Queens get the money. I mean, here's the thing.

Right. Like Right.

During that time, I was walking around with a wild chin strap and a headband.

Oh, wow.

At Koro, those are wild. This is a wild existence. Alright. This is the next one. What is your favorite time?

And it can be time during season, it could be time during the day, but what is your favorite time to to create, to really lock in?

Bad. Definitely, like like, middle of the day. Like, mid like, midday. Yeah. Midday or, at night, especially if I roll up something.

Like, yeah. But also, like, seasons, we talk about weather. You're the best time. I feel like I'm at my best, like, as a emcee during the fall. I don't know.

For some reason, in the fall, I don't know if it was because of, like, the gloominess or whatever, but I'm always like, I'm all 1. I I notice that a lot.

I I I peep I peep that. Like, I used to really, like because, you know, I'm a January kid. You know? These are all things like sort of those months leading into that new year, that 4th quarter. Yeah.

Oh, for some reason, it's just like the creative energy, and it's been that way for since probably high school. That is like, nah, I got something I'm cooking up. I don't know what it is, but I'm cooking up something. And, you know, I don't know. It's just something about that.

I think it's I think that's legit. Alright. So I got to ask this, you know, I'm curious. So, you know, studio, you know, working, you know, writing the whole process, trying to fit those lines, you know, in there when they might not quite fit can be very important as you touched on. What is what is that comfort meal for you?

You know, I you know, I like to get a sense of what people like to eat. What is that comfort meal for you?

You said comfort meal?

Yeah.

Oh, wow. So you're asking me what I like to eat as far as that comfort meal?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Oh, sheesh, man.

You'd like to get into the psyche of the people, man.

Yo. The comfort meal. Yo. You know what? A good comfort meal, yo, is some, that I got 2.

I got 2. Some jerk beans.

Go on.

Jerk beans and some charbroiled oysters, yo. Straight up.

It's a good combo. I like it. Straight up. Yeah. I mean, as a person that's die diving into, like, doing beans in a lot of different ways, I'm gonna have to try those jerk beans.

Bro, yo, when we get off air, yo, I'm a I'm a hit you with the ingredients and all that. Don't worry. I got

That's a bet. This is the last one, and this just aligns with sort of theme. Right?

Okay. Okay. Okay.

You know, is rap, hip hop, those are used interchangeably in this scenario? Is it black music?

Man, you know what? I feel like just the the origins that we and we know where it started at. Right? Mhmm. But that is worldwide.

You feel me? Yeah. I it's it's worldwide. Even though that we started it, I can't say that, there's a black thing because, like I told you earlier, yo, a a a person that a Asian dude will help me. You know what I'm saying?

Like, freestyle, a culture that was created by us Yeah. Some of somebody from another descent taught me how to freestyle. You get what I'm saying? That's hip hop.

So it's grown it's grown to be inclusive in that way?

Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely, man. And, don't I I I I I was guilty in the beginning of of being caught up. Like, I thought when I first listened to hip hop, I thought it was just East Coast, West Coast.

Like, that's what I thought. East Coast, West Coast. I didn't know there was a South. I didn't know there was a Midwest. And now it's just like, yo.

Because I used to be at a time where I'd if you wasn't from the East Coast, I wasn't listening to you. You know what I'm saying? Alright. If you wasn't on the East Coast, I wasn't listening to you. But then as I I got older and, you know, my taste of music started changing Yeah.

It just went off from there, yo. And, Blue, blu from West Coast. He changed that. When I heard when I heard below the heavens, I was like, oh, yo. These West Coast niggas, they got some emcees.

Yeah. I was tapped in.

I'll I'll I'll I'll close on this, and that's a great answer. It's it's a refined answer. It's it's not one of those it's a world music. It's just like, no. These are the roots, and it's it's inclusive, you know.

And I'll say, I used to do, I used to do, I used to burn my own CDs back in the day, and I used to call the the reaction the mixtape. And I would just this is what I was it's basically what I recently listened to on Spotify, but this is pre Spotify and that begot a podcast called I'll Put You On To. And, Put You On To podcast was, like, 2010, 2011. So this is early Kendrick. This is Dom Kennedy.

This is big crit. I'm naming some people out, you know. Sure. This is like Mac Miller. These were all of these people and the kind of the thing that you touched on earlier.

It's like I want people to know about that. It was Yeah. And I just remember the first time I heard fat raps remix lost my goddamn mind. Slapped so hard, and that's a Cleveland dude. That's Chip the Ripper.

That's dope.

So that's that's pretty much I think that's a good spot for us to to close on, this this conversation, man. So there's 2 things I wanna do. 1, I wanna thank you for coming on and spending some time on this podcast.

Man, thank you for having me.

Absolutely, bro. And, and 2, I wanna invite and encourage you to telephine folks where they can check you out, all things you'll never know. The floor is yours.

Peace, man. I'm everywhere on social media as, you'll never know. It's, u l l n e v a n o, hip hop, all one word. I'm everywhere. Concourse is out right now.

Shout out to Elijah Gonzales. More music on the way. Playground legend coming soon. Shout out to Rob, man.

And there you have it, folks. I wanna again thank You'll Never Know for coming on and blessing us on the podcast. And I'm Rob Lee saying that there's art, culture, and community in and around your neck of the woods. You've just gotta look for it.