The Truth In This Art with Multidisciplinary Artist Mary Graham

Welcome back to The Truth in THis Art. Thank you for joining me for my conversations bridging arts, culture, and community. I am your host, Rob Lee. And before we start, I'd like to remind you to visit our website, thetruthinhisart.com, for our full archive. That's nearly 800 interviews dating back to 2019.

They were 5 years in at this point. And, yeah, definitely worth your attention and time, and it's just a few clicks away. Today, I am privileged to be in conversation with a multidisciplinary artist whose work is influenced by community and human origins, integrating ancestral narratives through painting, portraiture, sculpture, film, and sonic healing. Her multidisciplinary approach creates a unique and immersive experience that fosters introspection and understanding among people. Please welcome, Mary Graham.

Welcome to the podcast.

Hello. Thank you so much for having me.

Thank you for for making the time, spending some time, and agreeing agreeing to talk with me. Like, you know, we have these east and west coast things. You're really east coast. I don't I don't wanna give you the east coast thing. You're west coast right now, but you're, you know, you're east coast.

We claimed you.

Temporarily West Coast, but as the days go by, it becomes not so temporary.

Okay. We're losing you then. We're losing you. So to start off and I'm and I'm glad because, you know, I've been following some of the stuff, and I'm glad that we were able to to make this happen. I'm following you on IG, and that's where I first became aware of you.

But for, you know, stepping back a little bit, I want to give you the space and the opportunity to introduce yourself in your own words. There is so much power in having folks introduce themselves. We can get into the artist statement. We can get into the haphazardly written bios. But hearing who the person is and what their work is about from them, I think it's a little bit more juice in that.

So if you will, could you introduce yourself and tell us a bit about your work?

Yes. My name is Mary Graham. I consider myself an interdisciplinary artist, But, you know, currently, I have a a focus on painting. I also have a background in singing. I've been classically trained.

I sing, jazz. I'm really focused on making work, exploring the idea of the ancestors. And this is coming from my artist statement. The ancestors as a tool for introspective, interpersonal, and historical insight. So I do that through performance, painting, film, and also sculpture installation.

Wow. So so all of the things.

Well, you know, I'm I'm a contemporary artist. I think, most of us are, you know, kind of dipping into many pots. We have many trades. Yeah.

Thank you.

And we're we're, also sorry. We're in service of the, the concept first and the ideas and then whatever we need to do to, you know, make those ideas happen. That's what we do.

That makes sense. And I and I and I appreciate that. I'm always, like, curious to talk with with folks, creative folks, with artists, folks that are working in multiple disciplines. And, you know, I was sharing with you a little bit, like, I was teaching today and always joke about having the right tool for the job. So last week was my, my first my class, and I came there with all of these different recording devices.

And I was like, yeah. It's like picking the right tool. They was like, why is why do you have so many things? I was like, well, maybe I wanna do video here. Maybe this is gonna be short form.

Maybe this is just 2 people. Maybe this is 6 people. Then, like, is it that diva? I was like, it is. Yeah.

It's the right tool for the right job.

Absolutely. Yeah. So and and thank you for, you know, giving us that that context. I think it's a bit more flourish in there, than just, you know, artists and, like, really being able to add a little bit more texture to that. So I think a lot of times some of those those early points kind of give us maybe an incline of the direction that we're going to go into.

I remember as a kid, this is not what I do now, but the storytelling part about it, I do do. You know, as far as I remember as a kid, I used to embellish what happens in certain movies, but I would always on and have a group of people in front of me, share with my friends. So, yeah, man, I bet you know anything about this. I do that kind of now with interviews and, like, trying to have folks share their stories in a in a unique way, and I'm kind of framing it. That's what that start kind of looks like for me.

I can make those those sort of like touch points back to that for you. What was it what's an early experience that maybe shaped your perspective on art or your perspective on creativity and the diverse forms in which you work in?

Well, I come from an artist family. My father is a professor of photography, and a social practice artist. And my mother works in textiles and fibers. So I had an upbringing where I was surrounded by artists and, makers and, you know, kind of people, curators, historians, people like that. So I my dad likes to tell a story about how he would carry me through the museums and, you know, when I was a baby and, like, you know, he would talk to me about the work, and I would kinda say a little, like, baby gibberish, and he would be like, it's a very interesting point.

So I I don't remember. I feel very lucky to have been, like, steeped in that environment ever since I was literally in utero. So kind of everything about my upbringing just, like, awakened all of my my creative selves to the arts.

That's that's great. So going going so far back, it's like, yeah. Yeah. Even then, you know, I was I had my statement, my my baby gibberish. It's like Right.

Quirk. It's it's not quite there Yeah. That translation looks like.

Yeah. My little drawings when I was 3, my my parents would look at them and be like, these are very good work, Mary. Maybe try using multiple colors in your shading to achieve a a deeper tone. And when I I would as a 4 year old, I'd be like, okay. I'll try.

It's always for progression. I am. The depth here. Oh, man.

Yes. Right. The composition, the form, the shapes.

It's great. It's great. I I joke about there's a certain aesthetic one wears when they're around artists. You know, like, I don't have them on, but I have tiny glasses and a big Oh, yes. Crosstalk that I wear.

Yeah. I I I'm I'm dressed like a caricature. It's I look like a cartoon character. So for for those who are undibbed, like I said, I, you know, started off. I, you know, I I found out about you and kinda started started diving in, and I was just really, you know, fortunate and happy that you replied back.

You know, and even wanting to to do this podcast is in part because I became aware of your work, and I was just like, oh, let's let's let's dive in. Let's see what's here. So for folks who are undeped and uninitiated, it's like like to say it like that. Seems a little bougie. Could you describe your work and walk us through your creative process and maybe taking on like a new piece of work, a new sort of body of work.

I mean, you you have sort of the we have value test. I know that we're going to touch on in a bit, but at least want to start off there. Maybe you'll talk about that, but at least want to start off there about sort of, you know, what your work is about and, you know, walk through through sort of the creative process, if you will.

Yeah. I'm I'm a young artist. I'm an emerging artist. I graduated, school pretty recently in 2022. So I'm still very much in that process of, like, figuring out what my own process is.

I'm kind of guided by what I'm moved by. With value test, it very much began as just kind of like a, you know, the strong urge to kind of work out some of these, thoughts and emotions I had been having about, racism and colorism and sexism and classism and, you know, trying to understand myself, and introspect about my, position as a black woman, as a light skinned black woman and as a biracial woman, and where I stood within the history of black femininity. Mhmm. So those works I I say this is the early stages of my career. You know, this early work comes from a personal place, but I'm oriented towards history.

And I'm very much oriented towards these, like, broader social and historical ideas. As I was doing as I was creating these, value test paintings, I talked to friends, loved ones, and mentors about their own experiences with colorism, and particularly with the paper bag test. And they were, you know, these are all, like, kind of scholarly artist types. And they were, you know, happy to recommend me reading material and, you know, historical reference points. So I began, like, a a research process.

And now I've come to understand myself as, like, a research oriented artist. I'm thinking towards the future, and, like, I've I feel like I've opened up this deep well of curiosity about, history, and, like, and who we would have been then and if we would have been then. Yeah. So in terms of my yeah. I think I think the the process is ongoing.

It's, like, it's it's constantly replenishing the well of creativity just by, like, keeping my eyes open in the world. Yeah. Artists are you know, we're always looking, and we're always absorbing, and we're always, you know, everything this might be cheesy, but everything is inspiration. That's the whole point, why we do what we do and how we do it. So, you know, the making and the research And the absorbing all kind of replenish the process

Thank you. So I I want to touch on now. I'm just freestyling since you know, just just it's one of those things where the observation, right? Like when I'm doing it, this is my artistic expression. I've been fighting hard to get it over as an artistic pursuit or what have you.

And I find that, you know, I have a notepad with now have something on hand that is like this is an idea or this is a series of questions or this is maybe a conversation, and sometimes it shows up, and it shows up in in conversations and interviews, but sort of, the references. I I remember one that that comes to mind where it felt it felt hokey, it felt cheesy. And I was just, like, walking, sweating my existence away in, in Texas, and I saw a bumper sticker, and it was something about art or creativity is the new magic. And I was like, I wonder about that. Is that legitimate?

Think about that. Let me think about that. And it just sparked up this idea of how does one really dive into their work, when do they get hit with it, and sort of even the idea of the of the question of, have you, you know, just been out doing something that you didn't expect to get some sort of influence from or some sort of spark or creativity from and then you can do that through line to, yeah, this absolutely showed up in this work. This absolutely was a reference point from here. And I and it started, like it gave me, like, several questions.

And I love those moments, those unexpected moments. Or even when I I mentioned this actually, yesterday to a friend that I went to a convention, and, you know, I was just there just to, you know, just kinda, like, reach out, network, and all of that stuff, and didn't think I was gonna get anything out of it. And I ended up doing 7 interviews that connected almost in this sort of, Kevin Bacon 6 degrees of separation away. Do you have, like, you know and you said you're you're a young artist, but I don't know. Young artist, that that added to me.

Do you have, like, this is definitely an experience that I had that showed up in this piece of work or the thinking in this piece of work?

I'm sure I have, but I can't point to any specifically. It's as miss Lauren Hill would say. It's all, as miss Lauren Hill would say. It's all it all kind of appears in one way or another. Everything I've learned and everything I've seen.

That make it makes sense, though. When we when we have those experiences, like, specifically when we're we're looking at the the idea of the the paper bag test or what have you, and, you know, I had this I had this conversation, a while ago, and I realized I was doing it. It was just ingrained. I was doing this thing of, like, I wonder if I would be treated differently if I was lighter or if I was darker or sort of, like, where that that fits. And I was thinking in that way.

I generally don't think in that way, but it just hit me one day. And even this sort of thing, I try to I do this, and I try to get this over as, hey, this is worthy of people's time, this is worthy of people's consideration, but I don't do this sort of I'm the de facto black person talking to black artists and so on. Mhmm. I just say I'm talking to interesting folks, and I've encountered people who maybe don't look like you and I, who will throw out the, I don't know if this is black enough. And it makes me start questioning, I don't know if this is a black perspective.

I was like, I'm I'm Black. I was like, what does that even mean? And I noticed that in doing this, and this has happened not not too not too recently, but long enough ago that I've been doing this, and this is I'm 5 years in of doing this particular podcast, and I would notice that my behavior would shift a little bit. I was just like, no, I'm definitely gonna be talking to more black folks. I'm definitely gonna be talking to more people that fit this and getting their perspectives because I encountered it.

I just do interviews. You know, it's not like baked in my work in that way, But definitely, it's much more prevalent and much more out there in my work and sort of how I approach this and who I even reach out to.

Mhmm.

So speaking on, like, the the the the themes that show up in your work. Right? Like, sort of your approach, like, how you approach the intersection of, like, race and identity. Like, what impact or sort of, like, what response do, you know, have you seen or are you looking for, like, what what are your thoughts in that area as far as when folks encounter, like, your your work, specifically, you know, value test, what what are you what are you seeing? What are you hoping to see?

Is it, hey. I want this to be a conversation that started. I want this to be a conversation that has sort of maybe this shade to it. Pardon the pun.

Yes. I I'm deeply inspired. I think there's a there is a movement occurring right now where artists are you pulling from history and kind of activating audiences to tell these stories that, you know, were previously unknown or hadn't yet been unearthed. And I'm I feel as though I'm part of that cohort of artists. So I was also, like, as a child surrounded by artists and, you know, social practice artists, I was, you know, brought up in an environment where art was always in service of the community.

You know, as artists, we have these tools that we can, you know, facilitate people's site and, you know, come up with these creative solutions to our problems. So this work yeah. The the hope was that it would spark a conversation, Which is exactly what it did. And I was very happy that it did that because I was you know concerned about the response and if people would think it was too, fraught, conversation to have. But I found that so many black people who came up to me after viewing the work had a story to tell me about their memories of their own families or about, you know, occurrences that had happened recently.

And they were these really beautiful stories

Yeah.

About these, like, instances of color and colorism. And that was almost everybody. So I was very moved by that response, and that is how I understood that, you know, I as an artist, my job was complete. I only do 10%, and the audience that I I only make the object. You know?

I can do the research. I can make the object. I can set up, like, a a series of conditions for this level of introspection to occur. And if it occurs, that's great.

Yeah. Yes. That's good. It's really good. So speak speak to me about this.

The when you when you mentioned the ancestors, you know, that's one thing that I saw that popped up a few times. Like, you know, it's it's a cyclical thing, like kinda looking in there with the the research component you touched on earlier, like, realizing, like, research is important and being able to really go back to maybe see what's here and what's here right in front of us because we we always return to these things. It's never like, oh, this is the first time we've seen this. It's like, no, this the same idea, the same approach of how we're discussing certain things, but let me put maybe this perspective on it. Well, maybe let me approach it from from my lens or, you know, or even incorporating sort of where we're at now in this conversation around sort of, like, maybe race, maybe classes, and maybe where where people fit in, you know, like, 2024.

Talk about, like, sort of, you know, in looking back and kind of looking back to look forward, I suppose, and how that relates to maybe speaking with ancestors. And, and I, and I say this with this, you know, added context. I've, I've done interviews with folks of, like, various ages. Right? And one that came up not too long ago, this was an artist, actually a filmmaker, and, he's, like, 76.

And I'm I'm 39. And he was, like, when I was doing my thing, you weren't around. So how would you and I was just like, I don't know, man. It's the references. I see it because we keep returning to these things, and it, like, blew his mind.

He was just like, you get it. You get it. So your perspective, you know, young artist, but you're doing you're you're touching on things, which we're here. So and I'm and I'm glad we would have this. So so talk a bit about that as far as, like, looking back to maybe look forward and look to right now.

I think that's the whole point is, you know, looking back in order to look forward. I I'm very concerned about, you know I mean, as human beings, we are only able to perceive time, like, moment to moment in the present, And we can imagine the future, and we can imagine the past, but it's kind of frightening the way those stories can so easily be lost. But, yeah. I I think there's a I would venture to say that in the United States and in the west, there is a there is a vested interest in people not remembering correctly. But there are ways that we can remember.

Yeah. And I think it's critical that we contextualize ourselves as a old species of people with if we want to have a harmonious relationship with each other and the planet moving forward.

That's a good point. I I No. I like it. I like it. You you had the look on your face.

You're you're you're you're a heady person. I like the way that you think. It's, it's good because, I finally we we were doing things that are, let's say, archival in in nature and you know, you're right. Like, I I do these I do these interviews, and I have these different folks that I'm capturing. It's like, hey, this is was my work 2 years ago.

This is my work maybe 2 years from now. And it's just like this is what I was thinking at this point. I'm like, I'm glad we were able to document it. And because I think if we we get rid of that or those stories aren't considered as important or those stories are somehow suppressed, you know, and here, we've had a I'll I'll use your terms because I like it. The sort of vested interest and folks that are from underrepresented communities, their stories being represented, their, their ideas, their insights being documented.

And I think when we have work that are share that's sharing those stories whether it be something like this or whether it be someone that's like capturing the stories and taking those stories and turning it into a visual, turning it into something that transcends and extends past sort of this moment in time. I think it's important. And, you know, I I I just find it interesting at times that we're we're not doing that and then wonder why certain things are are lost, and we have these moments where it's unearthed. We we finally found it. We we have this, oh, my god.

It was this behind the scenes. We didn't know this existed. It existed. It was just suppressed. So, you know, as we go back in, I want to tap back in onto, onto, value testing, more so about sort of, like, you know, sort of the scope component, like how many pieces and that that sort of stuff, some of the more technical things in there, because I realized I'm looking at the question.

I was like, I didn't even cover that.

Oh, yeah. Well, right now, there's 12 pieces in the series, but I'm expanding it to 24. I I'd like it ideally to be more of a limited series, but I'm I'm finding, as I do more, I'm kind of proceeding with a little bit more intention. Yeah. The first iteration was just kind of, it came from, like, an internal place, like a, kind of an automatic place.

Yep. And, you know, I I don't think there's much control you can have over your, what you've gotta do as an artist and what you've gotta make. But maybe in the second, iteration, I've, like, grabbed the reins just a little bit and trying to understand what I'm doing.

So it's it's constant learning at the in it. You you touched on earlier, you know, sort of the research component you touched on. So they're just kind of figuring out, like, you have, you know, like, that initial 12. This is scary. And then Right.

Right. Right.

You know, taking from that initial 12, how how do you feel, like, maybe that next 12, since this is the the 24, like, maybe what and it it feels gauche to say it, but what would you maybe do different, or what would you what would you be curious about applying to that next sort of grouping, whether it be something from a technical component, whether it be something from well, I wanna do this. I wanna play with colors here. And, by the way, before I before I forget, you capture the Browns very well. I always talk about what folks capture because sometimes. It's done.

Shout out to you.

That's that's the project. As as representational figurative black artists, we gotta capture the brown correctly. We gotta do it justice. Yeah. But, yes, moving forward well, I'm thinking about these ideas of the the binary.

Like, the paper bag test is a is a binary. You either pass or fail. And how it hearkens all the way back to the invention of race, and that, you know, and that hierarchical system, which is a set of binaries. So I'm I'm really thinking about those systems. And I'm also I'm trying to bring in some other elements.

I'm thinking about, like, class presentation. I'm there's so many unknowns with this work. I had created these, I designed these portraits. These are fictional characters. I, I created these digital collages, and I invented new people, essentially, to paint.

Yeah. So I I have a lot of control over how these women, look. So with that, why have I chosen to, why have I chosen these women? Why have I chosen to that they represent themselves in this way? And, like, what specific elements can I bring in that highlight certain aspects of history?

Like, with a new work that I'm doing or 2 new works, I, I used a, like, bolder approach with my colors. The previous ten had just been the paper bag against kind of like a abstracted, color field. The the next 2, there's one that's where the bag and the background have both been painted black. And the one after that, they've both been painted white. So I wanna think about, like, I wanna think about what all that means.

Like, someone on white, the obvious choice would have been to paint, you know, somebody who was white passing, quote, unquote, you know, like, oh, well, even though she chose to pass, she still will never be white enough. But that's like a story with an end. You know? That doesn't leave any room for interpretation. Right.

So instead, I'm I'm painting somebody else with kind of, like, a little bit more age, a little more experience. And she's wearing a, which is a a traditional Louisiana creole headdress, and it's, like, connected to these, like, old, sumptuary laws. I have to do a little more research about how, black Creole women had to cover their hair. So and then I'm thinking about, like, the color white, as it has, you know, cultural associations globally. In West Africa, the color white is like a it's a spirit color or a deaf color, I believe.

So I I just I am trying to create more opportunities for more interpretation. And, like, you know, always always posing questions and not attempting to answer my own question conceptually, if that makes sense.

It does. So I got I got, like, one one more real well, 2. I got 2 two two more questions, and one and they're both real questions. And then again, to those rapid fire questions that you were terrified of but forgot about. They're still coming.

So could you could you share with us sort of these these other instances where and and generally, I would ask, like, what is your first love creatively because you're in so many disciplines? And I I I see how they connect. So so speak about that, like, the the advantages again of of working in so many mediums, finding that sort of right tool for the right job. But sort of what that first love was and, like, how do they connect? Maybe does one you know, does being a does does being, a singer, a bit vocalist, what have you, help you with portraiture?

Are there any sort of, like, overlaps in that way maybe in the thinking? But speak on that a bit.

Yes. There is overlap. But at this point, I'm still I there's still a lot of unknowns with my own practice. All I can say is that it it kind of it all comes from the same creative location, and I envision a future where they, like, intersect. Yeah.

But, I think right now, I'm I'm kind of in a in a painting zone creatively. So I'm thinking about image making, and, I'm pretty focused on, like, 3 d or, yeah, 2 d media at the moment. But I have done performance work in the past, during COVID. I did a piece called serenade where I sang in different, areas around my neighborhood in San Francisco kind of improvised kind of improvised, classical vocal elements into some, video installation that I did, kind of bringing song into, like, and projecting it against a painting. But, yeah, I think, like I said before, the concept always drives the, execution.

So I you know, all the stuff in me is, like, you know, revving up to something, but I'm I'm waiting for those ideas to come through. I like it.

So so this is the the last question, and I I like this question, because as a person who yeah. A little bit little bit, you know, overachiever. I like it. You know? I'm I'm a little a little jealous.

I'm very impressed. I'm a little jealous. Just like, I barely do this. And, you know, you're doing all everything, and it's like, I'm curious. I'm just exploring.

And, you know, I'm researching as well. I'm sure it's, like, 4 or 5 things that you didn't even include this. Like, oh, I did this for a while as well. So when I when when I go out, I'm thinking through, like, goals. Like, I wanna talk to this many people.

I wanna feel like you we have these this sort of goal, this this metric thing. How many interviews have you done? How many podcasts have you put out? How many, you know, folks have you talked to? So how do you do 1, do you have sort of, like, creative goals?

And I and I know you were kinda touching on it a little bit as far as you wanna do 12 more of this sort of body of work. But do you have, you know, creative goals? How do you approach them? And do you get bummed if you kinda, like, fall short? Like like, for instance, you know alright.

Let's say you get 22 instead of 24 or what have you. Would you be like, damn it? Or is it like, yeah, I'll probably do 36. You know, who what does that look like for you when it comes to creative goals?

I don't. I I used to feel a little bummed out, but I mostly because, you know, in the past, when I was a child, I would kind of, like, get frustrated, put something down, and then I would, like, never return to it. But, like, I actually would come back to it. I would come back to it the next year or in a couple months. And I would try it again, you know, with that with new knowledge, I would find that I would get a little bit further.

So I always like those moments of frustration and, like, you know, not achieving a goal. I just see it as, like, a hiatus time. Like, I need to put this down and, you know, if I come back to it, I come back to it. I just I kinda listen to the what it's trying to tell me. You know, in terms of professional goals and career goals and, deadlines and things like that, those are a different story.

But I just I try not to put too much pressure on myself. Like, if I don't if I don't I I tend to be an overachiever anyway. So it's like, if I don't do everything I set out to do, it's still gonna be pretty good. You know? So

Can I just patch someone back a little bit? Gas yourself up a little bit?

Yeah. It'll it'll be fine. That's my big phrase. It'll be fine.

I I thank you. Because I like, I'm I'm I'm an overachiever. Low down. But it is it's one of those things where it's driven by something else. I I call it, like, sort of riding this wave, like, you know.

Mhmm. Yeah. I'm doing it because I'm notorious too. That's another thing that's sitting there too, you know. Just but but I when I talk with with folks, I'm, like, in this sort of spot of doing the education work is very new to me.

And it's like, oh, this is attention, this is credibility and this notion of always having to be on. And, you know, it's just like, oh, well, this is temporary, like, how does this fit, does this make sense, and it's not a goal per se that I thought I would have. It's like, you know, the sort of it feels a little opaque, but it's like, oh, I'm doing something else. This is growing in this way. Not an expected way, but it's growing in a different way.

And in and I could see it serving me being a maybe better podcaster or a a better interviewer or better at even articulating an idea, like, in speaking to an audience of people who have no idea from a technical standpoint how to do certain things and be able to say it in sort of jargon laden, but also be able to bring it down to a level that is relatable. I'm like, I can see that connecting in conversations like this, you know, and it's something about it. And sure, you know, in spending time and setting it setting apart, like, time to do those those classes, to prepare for those classes and so on, I could do a number of podcasts and it kinda takes me away from the cheap thing. But in the overall scope, the more macro side of things, it's moved me towards that goal. And maybe I don't do an extra 10 to 20 interviews in a year, and I like the way that she put it.

It's like, yeah, I'll just just get back to it. I think I've done a lot in, you know, there was 1 year in this where I put out 300 episodes. It was a it was a pandemic year. We were inside because, you know, executive computer, but it is still that thing, and I and I just like that you kinda giving yourself, like, an epiality check. Like, I I you get a lot done, you know.

It's like, oh Yeah. I'll come back to it and it's also, I think, knowing, like, this is something that's of interest for me, and I'll come back to it if I'm still interested in it later.

Yeah.

Alright. So I think I think we got the real stuff.

Yes.

That's how to get you to fake stuff.

Oh, okay.

Is that is that the stuff to fake stuff? Some people call these the b s questions, and I don't call them that because I actually write these questions. But I got some some rapid fire questions for you. You have to rule rapid fire thing. Okay.

All right. All

right. So here's here's the first. I'm gonna get I'm gonna get the one that you you might have had on your mind out of the way already. Do you have a favorite piece of Philadelphia slang?

John.

For sure. That was instantaneous.

Because a former classmate of mine from Philadelphia put in her Instagram bio, sheherjohn, because it it reflects the the versatility of the word. You know? It's like it refers to anyone and anything, you know? Sheherjohn. I love that.

This is good. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you.

That's that's good. Do you have a favorite movie?

Favorite movie? Oh, The Fifth Element.

Really? Okay. Yeah. That's a good one. We we we may have to talk about that a little bit further post pod because I might have done a 5th element podcast.

Woah.

Yes. Yes.

It's a very special movie. It just, like, it's so unique and so out there. And there's, like, there's so much to love about it. It's it's one of my favorites.

I did it at a radio station with a guy that does a, he's a he's a host, and he does a regular, anniversary, like, screening of the movie and he dresses up as Chris Tucker's character.

Oh.

Yes.

Yeah.

It it it works. Mhmm. So let me guess. What historical figure would you love to have a, like, a dye to dine with? There's a part b to this question, but I'd like to at least give give that part.

You're going through the whole index right now. It's like everyone in history.

Oh, man. Mansa Musa, I guess.

Okay. I I so so here's the part b to it. This is gonna be this will be a little trolling because of who you chose. Like, who's picking up the bill? No.

What do you what are you guys gonna eat? What what's the meal? Like yeah.

Well, if I remember correctly, I think he was a king. So they would be cooking up all kinds of, like, ancient roasted meats and things like that. I'm gonna be honest. I was kinda like I went through the entire rolodex of history, and I settled on, like, the the ancient civilizations of Africa.

And I

was like, okay. I think they they seem pretty cool. Good food, beautiful jewelry. Yeah.

I almost saw the the the processing of the Rolodex. Are you like Yeah. I saw it. So here's the last one. So, you know, I think we all have these these different hobbies, these different things that we're into that, you know, based on maybe conversations of sort of the, public persona.

You know, we like to delve deep. We have these hobbies that people may not think that, oh, I'm really into that. I'm really, you know, that's a real big interest of mine. I've said it on here before and people don't think it's true. I really enjoy wrestling in, like, eighties pop music.

Like, you know, if you would have saw me earlier, some of the dance movements or lack of dance movements I was doing, do this playlist that I had my AirPods on, you'd be surprised a man of my size, 64, 250, just getting it. So what is maybe a surprising hobby or interest of yours that, you know, you might wanna divulge. Gotta go into the great detail about it. It's like, look, I'm into this, moving on.

I really enjoy, D and D podcasts.

I did not expect that. So that was a super effective question and a super effective answer. So shout out to you on that.

Now it's out there for everyone to know, but it's not a secret.

Look. That algorithm. Okay. Getting getting invited on a on a number of those podcasts.

I sure hope not.

I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna tag. When I put this episode, I'm also gonna tag it. So that's kinda it for the hot seat. Well, the rapid fire, not the hot seat, rapid fire. So there's there's 2 things I would like to do as we, as we close out here.

Right? 1, I wanna wanna thank you for making the time. I'm glad we're able to to get on here and have a conversation, about your your insights around, like, your work and on your work. And, also, I'm gonna give you the space and opportunity to, you know, share, you know, sort of social media websites, so do the shameless plug portion of it. And I do call it shameless plug.

So if you will, the floor is yours.

Thank you so much, Rob. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. My Instagram is mary.gram.art, And there's a link to my website on there. I believe I have a show coming up in the fall at the Berkeley Art Center curated by Hannah Waiters and Charles Lee.

And I'll be posting about that as more details come out. And I hope that's it. I hope I haven't missed anything. But thank you again so much. This was really wonderful.

And there you have it, folks. I wanna again thank Mary Graham for coming on and spending some time and sharing a bit of her story with us. And I am Rob Lee saying that there's art, culture, and community in and around your neck of the woods. You've just gotta look for it.