Welcome to the Truth in the Tsar. I am your host, Rob Lee. Some call me radio Rob Lee. I don't know if we're gonna get that over, but, you know, give it a shot. So today, I am super excited to welcome my next guest, for my conversations at the intersection of arts, culture, and community.
Rob Lee:My next guest is a multimedia artist working in paint, sculpture, animation, film, digital video, sound art, puppetry, and performance. Please welcome Pierre Bennu. Welcome to the podcast.
Pierre Bennu:Thank you, man. I'm I'm I'm happy to be here. This is dope.
Rob Lee:Thank you. Much appreciated. And, this is the thing that I've been and maybe it's the quality of individual I've been interviewing, in recent days, but I feel like every day that I've done a recording, I've had someone who's been wearing glasses. So Oh, man. Out my bespectacled brother on the other end.
Rob Lee:I love it. Thank you for wearing your glasses. Listen,
Pierre Bennu:I gotta show up how I am. Yeah. Farsighted.
Rob Lee:Alright. Deep astigmatism, big astig, Rob, that's what it is. So as as we start off, I I like to give folks the space. I do my my intro and I have, you know, my pieces here and there and literally it comes from an amalgamation on what's online and so on. But I find that often something is left out, you know, it might be a big bread crumb about the person that they're like, yeah, this is really a big piece of my story.
Rob Lee:So I'm gonna lobby it over to you. If you will, could you start off by introducing yourself in your own word? This is how we, like, set the tone. Right? And, tell us about your work just as we start off here.
Pierre Bennu:Wow. I'm my name is Pierre Benoit. I I see, this is this is where it gets funky. I am a multidisciplinary artist
Rob Lee:Yeah.
Pierre Bennu:But I I I've been told by my boys just say artist. Right? Because my work just falls under so many umbrellas, and you could place it where you need to. I've been you know, my work spans decades, and a lot of it focuses on love, joy, revolution, process, and and transformation. And so, I mean, that's that's me in a nutshell.
Pierre Bennu:Right now, I've been focusing as far as what arts have been kind of in touch with of recent, a lot of animation, a lot of illustration, short film formats, experimental, and puppetry. A lot of puppetry have been getting back into that bag. So
Rob Lee:Yeah. So, yes, it's it's, you know, some people say multi hyphenate. It's multiple it's multiple thing, but artists, I like that. I like that just like artist capital a. It's to sync.
Rob Lee:Yeah. So going back and and having sort of this well, not even sort of this this this multifaceted, this very robust identity creatively. Right? Could you share an experience that left, like, one of those indelible marks, maybe one of those early experiences? I think a lot of times when we were looking at sort of going deep and and and kinda thinking through like, alright, when did I realize like I like, you know, poetry or when did I realize I like puppetry or or performance?
Rob Lee:So so thinking back, is there an experience that comes to mind, Alephra Marko, in you that shows up in your work?
Pierre Bennu:Well, early early on, I wasn't very, very verbal. Right? So a lot of my communication to the world was through art. Yeah. The affirmation that I found early on was growing up in New York and, being inspired by graffiti.
Pierre Bennu:Right? So being small and seeing these giant murals that we created that weren't there yesterday and that are created the next day and it might not last a week. And then the story of these people who have to steal materials or take them or borrow them, they create this plan that risks their life, their literal life to create this artwork against the odds, and and and then just how that art you know, like, how Spider Man is, like, red and blue. Right? Against a gray background, it pops.
Pierre Bennu:And so New York in the early eighties was that. It was it was destitute. It was left for dead. And then in the middle of that, you see this bright amazing piece. And what also hit me is about the people who did them.
Pierre Bennu:Right? These were teenagers for the most part. In art, oftentimes, it's the piece and then someone signs the bottom. Right? That's there.
Pierre Bennu:But in this art, the signature was the big thing. The signature, my name was the art. It was such a a bold kind of pronouncement of self. I'm here. I exist.
Pierre Bennu:And and I mean, that thing, that this is weird. That and if you go to New York, you'll see these grates.
Rob Lee:Yeah.
Pierre Bennu:Through those grates, sometimes you'll see plants coming through. That was also an inspiration to me. Like, those plants had seeds in the worst filth, but somehow through those grates and the heat, found a way to come through those grates and exist. And though those two things early on were huge Yeah. Landmark inspirations for me, like how things can be done.
Pierre Bennu:There's a way. You can find a way. So, you know, that that always affirmed me in in my creative process early on.
Rob Lee:That's that's dope. It's, you know, when I think of that, as you described, it very the gesticulation, it helps. You described some of the the the second part of it, like, growing through, it is, to me, it speaks to, like, perseverance or what have you. And this is, you know, I've I've had conversations with folks, and I was like, yo, you know, your your creative identity is like, yo, you can't separate the 2. Art life.
Rob Lee:They go together and. Right. One of those things is the perseverance component. Like what's that thing that people say, oh, well, to be an overnight success, you have to put this many years in already. Right.
Rob Lee:And that speaks to that perseverance thing or even when you're in the middle of working through something. I I think creatives, artists, you know, folks that pursue a creative endeavor are problem solvers, and the the the thing about it is being able to to persevere. You're troubleshooting. You're trying to figure out a way to make it work. It's like I have this in my head.
Rob Lee:I wanna make this in this way. How do I get it out there? So your your website reads, I turn love into art. And keep me on point because sometimes I botch. I turn love into art and art into medicine.
Rob Lee:Can you can you speak on the meaning of this?
Pierre Bennu:Okay. So that for me has to do with the healing power of creativity, of creation. Right? I had 2 1, like okay. So I had an art space.
Pierre Bennu:And when I got the art space, I kind of did not know what to do with myself. Right? I I I I I got overwhelmed with almost guilt. Like, I had jobs. Right?
Pierre Bennu:That's fine. But, like, as an artist, I couldn't it was like striking a wet match. I couldn't I couldn't get inspired. So I sat in that room and and just this this wave of depression kind of hit me. And I said, you know what?
Pierre Bennu:Do something. And so I started with 5 minutes a day, and I was like, alright, 5 minutes. And I said, I'm gonna I'm gonna use my non dominant hand and I'm gonna work in a medium that I'm not familiar with. So there's no ego involved. If I if I have a timer for 5 minutes, I hit that, something is done.
Pierre Bennu:I did something in this space that has value. It doesn't have value. I can give it value because of who I am. Right. So I started doing that.
Pierre Bennu:And 5 minutes became 10, became 25. And then I just started beasting out. And that really helped inform my work for clients and myself. Fast forward to the pandemic, I was able to kind of shorten, chop, codify a lot of those basic building block ideas into online class.
Rob Lee:Sure.
Pierre Bennu:And it really I got to I got to really see how both professional artists and people who have been kind of not in the art world, they don't consider themselves artists, tap back into that creative spirit. And, that's where the medicine part comes in for me, right? I was like, wow, okay, on top of telling stories or, you know, whatever it is that we tend to use art for, right, oftentimes a commodity, oftentimes to just cut and sell. This thing also has healing properties. Right?
Pierre Bennu:It has and it time travel. I've seen people tap back into who they were as children. I've seen people be able to plan ahead for the future in ways they they hadn't thought of prior because now their creative atrophy, they're they're hitting the bag now. Yeah. And so that healing part, turning the love, the art into medicine, that's what that's in reference to.
Rob Lee:That's beautiful. It's a and and I I see it in, you know, in in my sort of data. This is this is my craft. This is my practice. And, you know, when I'm not doing it or if I'm spending too much time away from it, I don't feel good.
Rob Lee:I get headaches. You know, my stomach hurts. It's it's it's like that thing that that day of someone, like, my man man, my ass started to itch. She's like, sorry. What do you mean?
Rob Lee:But it's one of those things where you're you're not you're not fully realizing your full personhood, you know, especially when you you're pursuing something creatively or even when, like, I'm an Aquarius, and I and I realized
Pierre Bennu:Me too. You get it. You get
Rob Lee:it, gang. I already get it. So this thing where it's the claustrophobia thing that pops up, and it's like, yo, you have to work in this style in this way.
Pierre Bennu:Right. Perpet.
Rob Lee:I I can't I can't do it. So you mentioned working and getting those reps in, but Mhmm. Being with the non dominant hand. I I used to do this thing, when I was doing a lot more sort of in person interviews.
Pierre Bennu:Mhmm.
Rob Lee:I would, I would I would forget a piece of my gear, so I can MacGyver that. I would forget something intentionally. It's like, oh, I don't have the questions on me, and then it turns into an improvised conversation. Still works because it makes me have to prepare. It makes me have to be on.
Rob Lee:Right? There are certain things at a minimum that I need. I need a recording interface. I need, you know, the other person there, but there's other things. This is like troubleshoot, problem solve.
Rob Lee:Let's make it happen. You're gonna get this interview. And Right. That's how it goes. So in in in thinking about, like, you know, having this super diverse and rich background, like, you know, multiple mediums, multiple disciplines, Can you share, like, what drives you to embrace such a wide variety?
Rob Lee:Like, is it sort of,
Pierre Bennu:I wanna make this. This is this is the part of the
Rob Lee:sort of, you know, tool belt, if you will, of disciplines and and mediums in which you work in, or is it what sometimes people will say for for our ilk,
Pierre Bennu:Man, y'all get bored. Y'all move
Rob Lee:to another thing. What what is it more more like?
Pierre Bennu:It's it's twofold. Right? It's it is boredom. I'm I'm a put that right there. That's real.
Pierre Bennu:I get bored. I'm like, you know, once once you kind of know the pattern
Rob Lee:Yeah.
Pierre Bennu:You're like, ah, okay. I can get past this board. So you you have to you've I find that if I switch it up, the thing that I'm doing that's new tends to inform the thing that I'm comfortable with. Mhmm. Right?
Pierre Bennu:So that for me is almost necessary from just how I create at this point. And also, I have these ideas, right? I feel as though sometimes you have to audition the idea in different mediums to figure out what medium best tells that story. Right? So I have a for instance, I'll give you the for instance.
Pierre Bennu:I'm looking around my room. There's a under one of these paintings is a painting of a a canary in a cage near a window and a, pigeon, and in the background, you could kinda see the city. All I know is that they're having a conversation about freedom.
Rob Lee:Yeah.
Pierre Bennu:This is still an unformed idea. This idea still hasn't figured I haven't figured out what it's gonna be yet, but I auditioned it as a story, a children's story. I auditioned it as a painting. Is this a poem? You know what I'm saying?
Pierre Bennu:So I audition it until it finds a medium that goes, oh, snap. That's a short film. Bet. Bet. Or that's a stage play.
Pierre Bennu:Bet. Or if it if it doesn't fit in any of those, you you you tuck it away, and it might be the highlight of something more grand.
Rob Lee:Yeah.
Pierre Bennu:Right? But I don't ignore anything, and I work in many mediums to basically serve the story. Right? And what what medium best serves this idea? So that's that's the other reason why I kind of work is this a collage?
Pierre Bennu:Is this you know what I mean?
Rob Lee:So yeah. No. I love it. It's it's it's going through, like, these different filters. It's like, this would work well in this way.
Rob Lee:Well, maybe let's look at this. How about that? And it's interesting when, like, those those moments hit you where it's because you're very equipped in working with multiple working within multiple disciplines that you can actually do that, where in in doing this, this is somewhere this is storytelling, this is archival work, this is my podcast. And I I see when folks have and especially because I educate in this area now, I see when folks have a very specific siloed idea of what it is. Mhmm.
Rob Lee:Oftentimes, it's not what it is. It's something else. It's something that's very far away from it. It's like, well, it needs to be a video. It's like it can be.
Rob Lee:What it needs to be is sort of the conversation you're recording and documenting or whatever at its minimum, and I I think that people speak very passionately about it. I think I think in your sort of way, in this specific area, I'm like, look, this could be a short form podcast, long form, this can be video, this can be excerpts, it could be all of these these sort of different things, but it's not too far away from this sort of creative expression. But people have this idea that it has to be specifically for this, and I think it speaks to to art generally, almost this, well, it has to be something that can be sold and packaged. That's the thing that as I look at it with this time removed, I started thinking about it like that, and it makes it makes me itch to get the hives. Mhmm.
Rob Lee:Mhmm. Yeah.
Pierre Bennu:Yeah. I I I you know, I'm I've been kind of I I mean, I think the pandemic kinda turned it to to 20, but, you know, it really there's this thing that I've kind of been going back and forth with all my life, about the dance between commerce and art. And what I've come to is that not everything has to be for sale. Some things can just be for me. You know what I mean?
Pierre Bennu:I don't have to take a photo of everything. I don't have to you know what I mean? Like, every amazing painting I put together or feel that I think is amazing doesn't have to be sold or shit. You know what I mean? Like, some things are just for your Yeah.
Pierre Bennu:Spiritual rep evolution. And and, you know, I've been trying to pass that on through the classes as well just like this this is for you. You could you know what I mean? So I think a lot of people see art and go, art is for sale because of just how we live. You know what I'm saying?
Pierre Bennu:But to your point about these conversations, I've been actively going out with people who are, you know, not quite best friends, but just like acquaintances and being like, yo. I'm a be at the the coffee shop doing work. You don't have to hang out with me, but that's where I'm a be. Yeah. We could talk.
Pierre Bennu:Let's learn to talk again. So this podcasting thing is dope, but I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm envious of your ability to structure a well rounded conversation. And so I'm I'm I'm again, I love this this being a new medium that I kind of keep to myself. I I I love not knowing and figuring out and failing, but, like, it's it's it's artists, let's say it like that, like you that just truly inspired me to be like, okay. 2 incredible people could sit down and have a conversation, and it could be expansive.
Pierre Bennu:You know what I'm saying? So anyway
Rob Lee:I appreciate that, and it it it's definitely one of those things where I look for the challenge, like I think one of the other c's that come in is is the content piece where I'm not here to sort of make content that's packageable in that way. It's just like I wanna have a dope conversation and and I'll and I'll say this in in as self deprecating as I can be, I like having conversations with people who are more talented and interested than I am. And then I like to share those things with other folks. That's what I do. I'm like, yeah, let's put it out there, and and I think, you know, people get something out of it without, you know, toot my own horn or patting myself in the back, but I think it's an interesting conversation.
Rob Lee:And even in the, you know, the curation is curatorial. And it's not like I'm reaching out to everyone that picked up a paintbrush and it's like, hey, let's have a conversation.
Pierre Bennu:And and
Rob Lee:like I said before we got started, I was like, I know you could be one of those guys as before we even got started. It's just like that's that's just it's just hate, you know. So, you know, your your your work, you know, featuring, you know, some of the things that you touched on. I I also see resilience, black joy as well. Could could you discuss a project that that that comes to mind that really embodies, like, if how put it I put it in wrestling terms.
Rob Lee:I I like wrestling. You're getting yourself over. Right? I'm like, yo, hey, check out this match. You know, for you, you're the match.
Rob Lee:It's like, yo, what's the that that that one piece as like, you know, you absolutely you absolutely gotta check this one out. Like, you know, we're not we're we're told that we shouldn't be gassing ourselves up, but sometimes you gotta gas yourself and say, yo, what's what's that piece?
Pierre Bennu:Wow. This is hard. This is hard. I think the piece that most people come back to, is a piece, that I a video altarpiece, I like to call it, that I did for the song sun moon child by Imani Azuri.
Rob Lee:Mhmm.
Pierre Bennu:The idea behind it was that, you know, photographs were new technology that were applied to altarpieces, kind of to connect you to a time gone. I was like, well, what would a future altarpiece look like? And that's what the idea of this mashup, I guess, you call that now, video was, but it it it's it's something that people come back to year after year, and I I you know, people discover year after year, and it just it just hits them. The the the the response I get from that is is is it it warms me because it hits like an altarpiece as opposed to just, oh, it's a really cool thing cut to the music. You know what I mean?
Pierre Bennu:And and and some of the work actually that I did at my residency as a residency artist for BLM, and, the Global Network's, Black Futures Month. The pieces I did for them, there were some amazing, like, just pieces that I feel like really speak to who I am. Right? They they talk about healing. They talk about revolution.
Pierre Bennu:They talk about growth. Yeah. So though those pieces in in those pieces are included. One of them is animation meditation loop, which is something that I've been doing for quite some time, but only have recently be begun to share with the public at large. So those 2 those 2 those 2.
Rob Lee:Thank you. Yeah. So is there, you know, with with having sort of those those personal themes, and I and I heard, you know, I heard 2020 mentioned a couple of times, and that was definitely one of those, obviously, one of those years. And even looking at this from a sort of creative standpoint, this is when this kind of blew up. Like, this existed sort of pre 2020, but for maybe 6 months, and then, you know, we went through into 2020, but then multiple interviews, multiple people listening, checking it out, and it became more of an unknown thing.
Rob Lee:And I I think just kind of being away from it, you know, being away from sort of constantly being out there, constantly being bombarded with all of these messages. We're inside and bombarded in a different way, but because majority and a lot of us were at home, I know I was, I'm able to explore sort of this process at that time. You know, I've been podcasting for 11 years. Right. You know what I mean?
Rob Lee:So I'm I know how to do this. Being able to maybe do it differently and think about it differently of, like, oh, I'm putting this out there and I'm booking people, and it's not just me and my friends, you know, talking about movies and stuff. I'm doing something a bit different. So talk a bit about sort of your process and how perhaps it has evolved over time. Now granted, you know, you're working in every media.
Rob Lee:I was like, what's the new one that you just came up with? You're working in all of them, but talk about in in sort of in in as general as you would like or as specific you would like, you know, sort of how your process has evolved over, you know, time.
Pierre Bennu:I've I've been able to separate what's for me, and what's for the public and what's for, you know, I guess I wanna say the corporate, but, you know, when you're hired to do a job. Yeah? Sure. I've been blessed to be able to, be able to say no, as I you know, I'm getting up in the age, you know, of a big of a big age as they say. So I can I can I can I can, more easily be able to look at a project and go, no?
Pierre Bennu:It's not worth the money for me to do that thing with my name on it. Yeah. But knowing knowing what's for me, creatively, and, being secure in that really frees me up when I work with other people because now I'm like, okay. I could just use whatever skill set I've sharpened to just be completely egoless and say, let's do what best serves this narrative. Let's go.
Pierre Bennu:You know what I mean? I could come in as a a pure artist if you will, in service to the story. So I think I've just kind of sharpened and evolved in in that way. I know it's mine. I know it's for sharing.
Rob Lee:No. That I think that's that's really good. And a piece of advice that I got just last week actually by, you know, every now and again, I'll look at people's credentials, and I know that their credentials. I'm confident in what I do and all of that stuff, but at the same time, sometimes I'm like, how the hell did I get this person? How did I get this person to say yes?
Rob Lee:And and, you know, dude gave me a really good piece of advice. His interview is not out yet. That's why I'm not not mentioning it, but he he was just, like, just, you know, stick with your authentic voice. Stick with anything that you do. He's, like, that's you.
Rob Lee:He's like, all of the other stuff? He's like, sure. He's like, and those people that are doing the thing that is kind of fake that's not really them, that's for them to do.
Pierre Bennu:Right?
Rob Lee:So it it's kind of being able to understand, like, what's for me, what should I be going in? It might, you know, come what is it? The the whole comparison still joy thing?
Pierre Bennu:Right.
Rob Lee:But I think there's some validity in it, and you you can't help but do it. And sometimes people reinforce it, especially, you know, in certain communities, we're very, you know, tight. It's very close proximity. Right? But when it's something that feels true and you're doing it, I think, quote unquote for the right reasons, you're able to easily make those lines delineate and figure out, like, why are you doing this again?
Rob Lee:And the thing that you said a second ago about sort of the the money piece and Mhmm. The thing that I've gotten really comfortable with recently is figuring out a way to say no and it's like does it fit is the way that I go about it. And, you know, like by the time by the time this interview drops, I'll be closer and closer to 800 episodes. Mhmm. So my mind my mindset is I don't need to audition anymore.
Rob Lee:Right. And it's just like here. Here's here's my whole portfolio, if you will. Now if we wanna talk about something in a different way, I'm happy to do that, but sort of the, you know, conversation that feels a little exploitative that leads into that audition, I don't know if I really want that or opportunities that on paper may look pretty interesting. It might pay a certain dollar amount, and then it has to pass this other thing.
Rob Lee:It's the, what's this book I dove back into yesterday, death of death of the otters? And if you have it, you should check it out. Definitely, I'm an audio book guy, but,
Pierre Bennu:I'm writing it down right now.
Rob Lee:And in in in in one of the chapters he's talking about, and this is, like, from 2020, so it's not that long ago. And he's talking about sort of is this, infographic that this I think her name is Jennifer Heche that she came up with of, should I do this job, basically? Should I work for free, or should I do this job, and so on? And that filtering that's done there, And that's been really helpful for me at determining, like, does this fulfill me? Sure.
Rob Lee:Like, the thing I was mentioning earlier about teaching, that's not a thing that I do, but it it was a rewarding opportunity and I got so much out of it. So I was like, oh, okay, on paper, maybe you should spend your time doing something else. How many podcasts could you do during that time? How does it affect sort of the flow of your creative pursuit? But as I think about it, it's like, well, this actually can fit into my creative pursuit in this way.
Rob Lee:If I'm talking to folks and I'm, in a sense, sharing and helping to share the stories with this sort of, like, mechanism, these questions and all, I'm informing, and I'm kinda teaching some somebody something that people are listening perhaps. And it's, you know, a podcast. So there's all of those things. So in teaching, it's kind of the same thing. I'm teaching how to podcast doing all of these things.
Rob Lee:I was like, oh, it fits. I'm riding this wave and it fits.
Pierre Bennu:Right. I I I I find that studying our heroes Mhmm. And reading between the lines really helps. Finding the humanity in them, understanding the l's they took, and the gaps in space, because they don't talk about the gaps. Right?
Pierre Bennu:You you you have someone like, Sidney Poitier, and we just see him as this actor who was excellent. Right? But, like, we don't talk about him, you know, living in a a broom closet and kind of trying to get rid of his accent and the decades of, like, the l's. Right? We talk about, you know, James Baldwin, Paul Roble.
Pierre Bennu:Like, we could go down the line. Nina Simone, like, we don't talk about her in the clubs just playing these tunes that she didn't necessarily want. Like, you know, we have to learn to humanize our heroes to find where we fit into that narrative Because we're living a narrative that people are gonna look back on and they're only gonna be like, Oh, look at all the wonderful things that this person did. But they're not gonna speak about these moments where you said, yo, that looked good on paper, but you know what I'm saying? I'm sure James Baldwin turned down mad stuff as, you know, you know, Toni Morrison.
Pierre Bennu:Like, I'm sure these people have turned down amazing things to be them. But at the end of the day, what was for them was for them. And and I, you know, I do believe in that level of destiny. Like, you you couldn't have turned their narrative any other way, but in the living of it, you couldn't there's no way to know. You know?
Rob Lee:And that's one of the reasons when I added, like, the first, like, maybe season, maybe 2 seasons of this pod, there was no questions around sort of the rapid fire. The rapid fire, these questions that I'm curious about, they don't necessarily fit into tell me your art story, if you will. Right? Right. It's just, like, who's the person that's behind it?
Rob Lee:What are those, like, little bread crumbs that are there? Like, when you talk to someone, like, what is it? The blood the sort of artist habits you hear these different things. It's like yo whenever I finish a painting. I make sure I get a croissant That's an interesting detail that Right.
Rob Lee:Sort of the minutiae of the person, but it's probably a big thing for them. Like, you know, so that's one of the reasons why I incorporate that in there to, in a way, respond to that sort of people are commodities. It's like, no. They're they're people. They they, you know, they they make this work, but they're people.
Rob Lee:That's you know? Right. Moving into, like, sort of this this next next question, let's talk a bit about Exit the Apple and and sort of your role, the the story around that. I I have, like, a sub question there, but at least wanna start up by opening up that that part of the conversation.
Pierre Bennu:Wow. Okay. So exit the apple has been well, first of all, it's it's just one way of saying, living and creating outside of the box. Like, people people always ask me, what does xz apple mean? There's a big long meaning, but that's basically it.
Pierre Bennu:Yeah. And it's been many things over the 30 plus years that I've been using that name. Currently, we're into, like, lifestyle branding. We're into kind of supporting the creative mind, getting more people to kind of tap into, again, that art, that that that creative self that kind of just atrophied over time. So a lot of the work that we've been producing on this side has kind of just been, how do you inspire from a a horror place?
Pierre Bennu:Mhmm.
Rob Lee:You know
Pierre Bennu:what I mean? How do you how do you and it gets harder because of how I feel divided conversation, at least online has been, but I kind of wanna tap into something basic, primal, and inspired. You know what I mean? I want it like like seeing like, I was talking about seeing those those plants come through the greats. How can I get people to just get there?
Pierre Bennu:You know what I mean? See something and go,
Rob Lee:Ah, I know
Pierre Bennu:how that fits into my life. And it might hit you different 3 years from now or 2 years from you know what I mean? But it's the same piece of art. How can it be sustainable, reusable, and inspirational? And so that's kind of what we've been focusing on of late.
Pierre Bennu:That's kind of what the moniker of Exit the Apple is kind of had under, its umbrella right now. That's the kind of thing that we're kind of Yeah. Aimed towards, if that makes any sense.
Rob Lee:It does. It does. And when you know, you you said you said 30. Right? So that's podcast only, you know.
Rob Lee:But, when you talk about sort of something that's very much sort of like, you know, using this this term for lack of better term, like one's baby, and it's, like, very much aligned with a personal vision. How do you what are those considerations when you're you're you're seeking maybe collaborations, when you're working within sort of a a team or or anything that's external from you, but that's driving sort of the vision forward. As I as I see that all the time, like, I do this, and when I'm trying to bring in someone, the fit has to be there. It's like you might be really good at what you do, but we may not have that sort of shared vision. Or even when I bring folks on for for an interview, like, I look at this as a collaborative thing.
Rob Lee:Like, if, you know, let's say I came in here with a wild energy, like, and you bring
Pierre Bennu:it down, like, by 5, my guy, or if it
Rob Lee:was just it was just a non match. So so speak on that a bit, sort of the considerations when it comes to, at times, the collaborative nature of things, especially when it's a very it's an individual's vision starting off.
Pierre Bennu:Well, I mean, Exit the Apple essentially, at least right now, is primarily me. So that's the fun part, but it's also the the huge stressor. As far as things fitting my the vision, and collaborative pieces, it's it's like you said, it's a conversation. You know what I mean? And to what we were talking about before, I had a friend of mine who used to say to me, and this was she was talking about relationships, but I've I've used this to apply to many things is that there are no secrets.
Pierre Bennu:People tell you who exactly who they are and you choose to either listen to them or ignore them to get to whatever it is you feel you wanna get to. And I find that with artistic collaborations, you know, you know, there's no that answer you know, and after a real solid, sincere conversation, you know whether this relationship because that's what it is for the for the time of the collaboration, whether it can move forward or not, because it moves forward with you. Right. You don't have to move it forward. You know what I'm saying?
Pierre Bennu:So, I've been blessed, over the past maybe really since the art space closed in 2018 that I've been really blessed with people that I've collaborated with, that have really kind of gotten the vision. And you've been around as long as I've been around, people are like, I know what you do. And so that energy kind of is, is my billboard. It speaks for me in respects. So by the time we have that conversation, there's usually a shorthand there.
Pierre Bennu:I've I do my research on everybody. I don't if we talking, trust. I've done all the, you know what I'm saying? What's the person like, I've done the whole thing already. So I've done my research and, you know, my works, however, they came in contact with me, which is wild because it you know, they could have met me, you know, performing.
Pierre Bennu:They could have met, you know, seen my work at a museum. Like, I don't know how they're coming to me, but however they met me, I'm like, okay. That's you? Boom. That's my billboard to you.
Pierre Bennu:That's how we communicate. We have a shorthand now. Let's talk about if this project works for us and how best we can serve that vision.
Rob Lee:That that's similar to I I I did this interview because I as I do so many. Right? And I did this interview with Sean Peters, and it took a while.
Pierre Bennu:Oh, oh, oh, that's a good man.
Rob Lee:Yeah. It took a while to to, like, figure it out, and we ended up making it happen. Right? And Mhmm. It's, like, yo,
Pierre Bennu:how did I become aware of you again? And he was, like, I don't know. Like, I
Rob Lee:was, like, I'm I'm happy. Like, the work is great. I'm looking forward to chatting, but it was what
Pierre Bennu:I was
Rob Lee:trying to remember, but it was a good thing. It's like, you're
Pierre Bennu:a New York guy.
Rob Lee:He's like, I am. I was like, Philly. Right? He's like, I'm in Baltimore, bro. I was like, ah.
Rob Lee:Would makes it even funnier? So Right. You know, if you probably about about 2 months ago, I actually saw him in person, and neither of us was supposed to be where we're at at the time. We were meeting with one of my, we're getting, sandwiches at this spot. My buddy was, making sandwiches there for this pop up, and I happened to see him and I was like, I know you.
Rob Lee:He said, I know you as well. You know, it was cool to meet in person. That means it's a continuation because Mhmm. When I do this, what my aim is, and and I aimed at his conclusion last week. I know I was telling you about the New York thing a little bit.
Rob Lee:Right. That started in encountering my people up there. Like, I don't see them regularly and encounter and I was just like, oh, right. We're friends. And that's the thing that I'm really trying to reason through because, you know, in theory, 1 each person I've interviewed, we should be, you know, friends, Leo, what have you, but that's not always the the case.
Rob Lee:You can think that this collaborative thing that we did went really well, and, you know, people are coming on here sometimes sharing really intimate details. I had an interview last week with a fellow Aquarius, and we were talking about some heavy stuff, and it's rare that there are emotions on this podcast, like teary emotions. It was some heavy stuff, and we were able to get get through the full thing, and she was, like, thank you for being vulnerable in this interview as well. Mhmm. And I that's not a thing I actually hear in real life.
Rob Lee:So I was, like, but when we wrapped it, she was like, yo, we're friends now. She was like, yo, I shed tears of your podcast. We're friends now. And I was like
Pierre Bennu:Wow.
Rob Lee:So that's my aim. You know what I mean? And it's it's building that. So it's collaborative if I'm I'm rooting for anyone that I've had on here. That's that's that's the way I look for it.
Rob Lee:You know what I mean? And, that's just what that is and that's what that driver is.
Pierre Bennu:Mhmm. Wow.
Rob Lee:So I got I got 2 more real questions. 1 of them I moved into rapid fire because I think it fits better there. Okay. I got 2 more.
Pierre Bennu:I'm trying so hard not to overshare, by the way. I'm
Rob Lee:No. No. No. No. No.
Rob Lee:No.
Pierre Bennu:I'm toning it way down.
Rob Lee:Look, man. When sometimes, when I'm talking
Pierre Bennu:to people
Rob Lee:I haven't talked to in a while, I'm like, alright. I need to bring this thing down. Right. Because I'm like, look. I you got 3 hours?
Rob Lee:You know
Pierre Bennu:what I mean? Right. Right. Right.
Rob Lee:So and I and I had this I think I had this this conversation came from in a sense, this this conversation I had with Jeffrey Kent a couple years ago, and we were talking about sort of the artist life. So, you you know, aside from, like, making work, describe the most satisfying aspect of your creative life.
Pierre Bennu:Wow. Okay. So this question is it's I think the most satisfying thing for me is the continuation of the conversation that I had with myself. Right? Hearing back from people how they perceive the work or how they met the work.
Pierre Bennu:Yeah? That for me in this big age, earlier on, I was just like, I was just putting stuff out. I was like, all of me out. Like, you know what I mean? And there's part of me that still does that.
Pierre Bennu:You know, I feel like I'm on the clock. I'm like, I ain't gonna get everything done before
Rob Lee:I die. Let me you know? So
Pierre Bennu:but, but, but, you know, hearing back from people who were like in college, who were like, Yo, when I was 15, I came in contact with your work here, and it did this to me. I'm like, what? Or, you know, I wrote about your piece in this like, it is it's seeing all of that come back to you and the conversations and the you know, because they're like children you let off into college. You've trained them. You've done everything you do.
Pierre Bennu:You put them out in the world, and then people have their relationship with your work. You know? And just the privilege of hearing some of those relationships has been, my latest joy as far as creating work because sometimes you just, let me say this. I I create work regardless of money. I I shouldn't even say that, but I'm I have to like, you were talking about earlier, I have to get it off.
Pierre Bennu:Yeah. Yeah. Oftentimes, big or small, I throw it out into the void. I hope someone hears it. I hope someone sees it or or comes in contact with it, but I have to get it off.
Pierre Bennu:The fact that I hear back something, anything from the void is just a super blessing. It's a super blessing. I like I know what that means now.
Rob Lee:Yep. You know? When when folks chime in and they they they they reach out and they say, oh, no. I'm aware of what you do. And it's like, oh, no, James.
Rob Lee:And it's people who are higher up. Again, like, sometimes, I was like, I I shoot the shot. Like, I I call it, creative ignorance sometimes of, like, you know, this I'm supposed to go through nah, I ain't doing that. I'm not going through this gatekeeper. I'm going directly to the source.
Rob Lee:It's, like, yo, I saw you in that coffee shop. So, bro, the cortados. Right? Let me treat you to 1. I do this podcast, you know, hit bing, bang, boom, then we're doing a pod.
Rob Lee:You know, that's that's that's how the thing thing goes or, you know, the thing that I run into on occasion is not knowing if I fit or where I fit, but still it's it's like the as you describing sort of growing through the the the greats. Right? It's like, I fit. I'm gonna figure out a way to fit. I'm gonna figure out a way to be here.
Rob Lee:So, you know, that that that trip I was describing to New York. Right. I'd went there last year. It was it was my crime alley. Right?
Rob Lee:I was like, yeah, I'm at this art show. I don't know what the hell I'm doing. I don't know who to talk to and so on. And last year was slightly better than the year before. This was the 3rd year I've gone.
Rob Lee:This time, I went there for tenches. My glasses were tiny. My scarf was big. Actually, I had I had a on. I had a a Shiba Inu ascot and some expensive cropped pants.
Rob Lee:I was like, yo, I feel wild, but I got the most networking I've ever done there done. Wow. I think I booked, like, 7 interviews when I was up there, and and that was sort of just, like, one, being comfortable with it, but, you know, sort of doing this and trying to carve a niche or a lane for myself, that's the thing that's been so so interesting, and this is the thing that I use before I move into this final question. This is the thing that I use as an Aquarius and then kinda describing this whole arc. I just call
Pierre Bennu:it a rotten wave.
Rob Lee:Yeah. Yeah. So Yeah. Lastly, lastly, this is, this is this is the one right here. This is the one I'm very, very interested about.
Pierre Bennu:Oh, man.
Rob Lee:And, you know, it speaks to sort of one of the themes that that's come up a couple of times in this this conversation. So lastly, you know, it's almost never enough funds, never enough opportunities, opportunities feel scarce. And I think that's sort of like we're working on something new, unique, but at times people might wanna put it in the box. It might be a bit challenging to get it out there. Right?
Rob Lee:How do you stay the course and trust your creative voice? Is it sort of time served? Is it that innate trust? What is it in in staying the course and in trusting your creative voice? It's
Pierre Bennu:well, part of it, like I said earlier, I have to just get it off. Yeah. So I find a way or if if I don't find a way, it gets heavy. You know what I'm saying? I'm learning that I can't at this big age, I cannot carry the weight.
Pierre Bennu:I'm like, yo, I can't. I'm sitting on books and stories from 15, 20 years ago, 5 years. I figure it out. Even if you do it in a a pad, just get it out of you so that you can let the new stuff in. Yeah?
Pierre Bennu:But the thing that sets the fire underneath me is that I have to create evidence. Right? The persons that need my work the most or that it's gonna make sense to the most might not be born yet. I may never meet that person or those persons. Right?
Pierre Bennu:Think about how many artists created work and were had people had in their time had no idea who they were, and then a 100 years later, immediately after they died, you know, 50 years that you know what I mean? Like, you have to create evidence. I joke with my partner all the time. I tell her I'm like, you know, because sometimes you get in those moods like, anybody see but I'm I'm doing all you know? I said, maybe I should just quit, and then I'll be like that woman who, you know, used to be in the church, and they didn't know she painted.
Pierre Bennu:Then and they didn't know she painted. Then she passed away, and then when they went in their attic, they found all these, like, masterpieces. Maybe that's that's the you know, what's gonna happen, but it's, like, part of the fire that keeps me going, that keeps me like, you have to figure this out is that it it it's it's in you for a reason. It chose you and you for the person that 100 years from now, it has to exist. It has to exist for someone to find it.
Pierre Bennu:And so that that's the fire for me, you know, at least one of the driving forces, it has to exist to be found and it could always be done better. It could always be shiny later. You know what I'm saying? But get it out of your body and into a realm where someone else can share it.
Rob Lee:No. That's that's that's good, and it makes me think of an idea that I will share with you after we don't let me forget it. I'll share with you after this. But it it it is his other thing, and I'll and I'll close on this before I go to these rapid fire questions. It like, my partner, she's she's from Brooklyn, and then as she talks about Good.
Rob Lee:Alright. Sorry. Probably know each other. And it's one of those things where, you know, we we were it was a couple years ago. It was Christmas holiday, and we were in Jersey with with, her family.
Rob Lee:And I'm the only non New Jersey, New York, person. I'm the only person that, like, I think there that does something creative or one of the few that does something creative. So I'm and I'm the youngest person there too. That's the other thing. Wow.
Rob Lee:So about all of these things, they're, like, yeah. So Baltimore, tell us about it. And I'm, like, why am I here being a representative of Baltimore? And and she chimes in, and she was like, Baltimore is Brooklyn before it became a Shake Shack. I'm like, yo.
Rob Lee:And and it's a thing there. It's something true where in in the idea where when we're protecting archiving culture Yep. That's what I want this to be a part of. It's not gonna be the best conversations, the most robust conversations, the comprehensive conversation that documents a moment in time. So to your point about what's discovered, they're capturing these or these years when this person was doing these interviews.
Rob Lee:If you wanna get a sense of it, you'll get the through lines. You'll you'll hear sentiments, but it's it's kind of an authentic thing that captures culture through these particular areas during this time frame. And I think that that goes away at times where, you know, you look at it and you're like, man, remember when this used to be like this? No. But, yeah, I think that that's the thing.
Rob Lee:And so when we, you know, it's almost the you'll you'll like this. It's like, when we eat the Dallas slices, it's like, well, those don't exist anymore. That's the key culture is what I'm getting at.
Pierre Bennu:Right. Wow. You know, there was this, these alright. So there were these films that were just released. They're almost a 100 years old, and they're these black these black, studios, black film studios from, like, way like, earliest.
Pierre Bennu:They're silent films. Yeah? And what's amazing about them, right, because some were produced by the church because the church had money. So there's, like, you know, people in devil costumes chasing people because they're listening to jazz music. And then and then there's and then there's, like, produced films.
Pierre Bennu:Right? Where, like, these, you know, they're like action films. It's like, I fly a plane. And they're chasing each other in these play you know, and it looks you know, they you could tell it's someone fanning smoke and
Rob Lee:they're what's
Pierre Bennu:wonderful about those films, though, is that every once in a while, the camera will kind of be, in a position where you just see regular everyday life. People just walking across the street. And it's those little bits that you go, oh, I know the ephemera. I know, like, that shoe is in a museum or or the way they buckle up their jacket, but that's how they walked in it. Yeah.
Pierre Bennu:That's what the swag looked like. That's how they you know what I'm saying? That's this is the living piece. Right? This is a piece of now that cannot be replaced or replicated.
Pierre Bennu:Right? They could make a documentary or a or a film about this. Right? I don't know who's playing you. I don't know who's playing you, but but they're not gonna get this moment down.
Pierre Bennu:Like, this is encapsulated. This is forever. This is this cannot be replicated. So this is this is this is I don't know. This is just magic.
Pierre Bennu:And I just, you know, I just wanted you to hold that because this is this is yeah. What you're doing matters is is is what I'm getting to.
Rob Lee:No. I I appreciate it, and, you know, I had this this bit on this podcast that I used to do. We were joking about, I think I think it was right after, Chadwick Boseman passed, and I was just like, yo, we just have to find the new black guy that's gonna play every other black guy in his biopics. Oh. Me and my buddy were joking.
Rob Lee:I was like, so who plays I was like, yo, we just get the same guy who plays both of
Pierre Bennu:us because we can't pick more. He and I look nothing alike.
Rob Lee:I was like, that'll be the bet. That'll be the bet. So so in these these final moments, I wanna move into sort of these rapid fire questions. And, you know, as I tell everyone, I always like to give the disclaimer, if you will. Don't open these, you know, it's kinda like, look, I said what I said.
Rob Lee:That's just what it is. Bong bong. Alright. He knows how to put the bong bong in there. So here's the first one.
Rob Lee:Here's the first one. I I think to be balancedand I've kind of gotten this off of you during the crux of this conversation and the research, self care is a thing. So is there a self care practice that you regularly engage in?
Pierre Bennu:Yeah. I I I the class that I teach, that I tend to teach on on on on weekends or whenever I have the chance now, it's not as regular as it used to be. I I do that practice pretty much every day. So it's it's very minimalist. It asks very little of me, but it's it's it's it's it's hitting the bag creatively.
Rob Lee:Yeah.
Pierre Bennu:And, I just recently, created a a deck for creatives, and that has become part of my, like, morning midday ritual as well. It's just pulling cards that are just affirmations and quotes to kind of tap into the things I need to kind of keep me going. And, the the the deck is called dear artist, and we just dropped it in February, and that that has been it's been it's it's just been a cheat code. It's it's a cheat code.
Rob Lee:Stop. Stop. So this one is sort of, interesting. This is a relatively new one I've added. Could you name a piece of media?
Rob Lee:TV, book, play, but something in that sort of that class of media where it doesn't get the respect it always should, like, people, like, movies aren't nothing. TV shows, it's, like, it's not the finalist. It's not theater. A piece of media that really captured your perspective on art or even your, you know, many, but even your creative discipline,
Pierre Bennu:like, when
Rob Lee:I first saw Mo Better Blues, I'd I'd saw, like, there's a lot of there's a lot of things that I've seen late, you know. But it's one of those things where I was like, oh, now I feel like I'm in the scene with these guys. I was like, I wish I still had hair so I can John Carlo my joint, but but is is there a piece of media that comes to mind for you?
Pierre Bennu:Wow. I man, I had so many ways I could have went with this question, but you brought up more better blues. Can I just
Rob Lee:Please? I'm a I'm
Pierre Bennu:a go with Mo Better Blues just because you said it. No. Real talk. I had something. I had a couple of other things in mind that I that that popped into my head just now, but Mo Better Blues was the first time that I saw black, particularly jazz musicians.
Pierre Bennu:Right? So it was this art. You saw these artists that weren't struggling with the art part. They weren't on particularly when they show jazz musicians, they're always on heroin or the money ain't right. These dudes used to wear suits in the street.
Pierre Bennu:The money wasn't the issue. It was this goofy inability to conquer their own kind of, sexism and ideals of what a woman should be and like, they're dealing with patriarchy and and and and goofy kind of inter like, it's it was it was just a wonderful study. I don't know if he intended it to be that, but it was a wonderful study on, ah, on how patriarchy kind of fails everybody. Yeah. You know what I'm saying?
Pierre Bennu:But I've never seen us artists not be in struggle and wear shiny, bright, colorful clothes, and it was just like, wait, no one's gonna die? No one's like, you know what I mean? We got out of it. There's no like hip hop soundtrack, there's no like for the nineties, like it was so many things that would just and and particularly, like, Spike could have made 5 other do the right things after do the right thing, and he chose to go completely that way. And, I just yeah.
Pierre Bennu:That's man, he's more better blues. He was just blue, whatever I was thinking about out the box. That that film does not get the love I think that it deserves. For sure.
Rob Lee:It's a good one. It's really, really good. I'm glad that, you know, upon seeing movies for the the first time, seeing it as an adult, seeing it as an adult in my thirties at the time, just it's it's it's a much different context. I'm like, oh, okay. Yeah.
Rob Lee:I see this with some experience that I can apply to it and the the movie that that comes to mind for me and this this is almost I used to use this for for for women that I dated. I'm like, yo, if you wanna know me, right, you know, some socks doing all of this. It's like, you should watch have plenty. They're like, have plenty.
Pierre Bennu:Oh, wow.
Rob Lee:Yeah. I'm pulling references out.
Pierre Bennu:Steady. Woo. Yeah. So you win. Uh-huh.
Pierre Bennu:That's the deep cut. That's the album cut. It it it never fails. When they come back after
Rob Lee:at the at the listening to at the watching it, they're like, that makes sense. Alright. So this is the last one. This is the last one I got for you.
Pierre Bennu:That have plenty. You just messed me all the way up. I gotta I gotta dig in my DVDs tonight for that one. That's cheese and bread. That's that's not even on streaming for real.
Pierre Bennu:Anyway
Rob Lee:Actual. So I I I I I referenced I referenced her earlier and that that's the person that I'm generally trying to impress when I do any of these these interviews. I'm trying to impress myself obviously, but when I'm doing these interviews, I'm like, alright. And she comes to me and say, yo, I listened to that episode. It's pretty good.
Rob Lee:Duggan. I'm like, alright. It's almost like you have that one friend, you're like, yo, so here's this hip hop song. I think it's really good.
Pierre Bennu:Side. It's like that
Rob Lee:one hip hop hit you can't impress. So if you're trying to impress anyone with your creative work, who would it be?
Pierre Bennu:Me. Like, I'm really even now, super hard on myself. I don't wanna say I hate everything that I do because I don't. Uh-huh. But to impress me Yeah.
Pierre Bennu:It take like, I'm super I'm trying I'm listen. I'm trying to figure out how to be less on myself. You know what I mean? Less hardcore. Letting go, like, doing those exercises of just kind of making things and timing yourself and be like, you have to stop at 3 minutes.
Pierre Bennu:But it's but it it's it's helped over the years, but, like, when I could nod at something and go, you know what? It hits spiritually and it works technically. Like, if I could do that, oh, that's heavy. That's that's strong. And let it out into the world.
Pierre Bennu:That's that's a huge deal for me. Like everyone else's opinion. I mean, of course, my partner, but me and her like, you know, she's admitted, like, no, I thought it was gonna be wack. You were right. I'm like, well, then I can't, you know.
Pierre Bennu:You know what I'm saying? Like, I take it it that matters, but it's not like I'm way harder on myself. She's been one who's pushed art that I've been sitting on out into the world. Like, you stop playing like this. Get it out.
Pierre Bennu:What are you doing? So, yeah, me me me. I'm Yeah.
Rob Lee:Very a choreo answer. So that's kinda it for the for the conversation, for the interview. So in these final moments, I wanna do 2 things. 1, thank you so much for being a part of this pod. This has been just a pleasure.
Rob Lee:And Thank you. Yeah. And 2, I wanna invite and encourage you to tell folks where to check you out, social media, website, any of that stuff. Shameless plugs, if you will. The floor is yours.
Pierre Bennu:Alright. You can follow me on, exit the apple at on Instagram. I'm I'm not on x Twitter. I mean, I have a I think I have something there, but I don't I don't deal with that. Exit the apple.com.
Pierre Bennu:You'll get all of the mythology, all of the, all of the new, self care, artistic inspiration tools are there, and we're constantly adding more as this thing evolves. And, that's about it for oh, no. Actually, I have a documentary coming out. So yes, it's a documentary that I did the animation for, and worked on creatively, called 1 person, 1 vote by Maximina Jusson, a documentary about the electoral college and the history of it as it pertains to black bodies. So that is an amazing documentary.
Pierre Bennu:Please support it. Please go see it. Please vote. I'm not saying I know what a vote doesn't. I know what a vote doesn't do.
Pierre Bennu:Do all the other things and vote and vote also. You know what I'm saying? Like and vote. That's it. I feel like I've occupied, too much time.
Pierre Bennu:If you search for me, you shall find and, I'm constantly creating and you'll see my name popping up in a myriad of places, in the next couple of years as projects that I've been doing start to find their way into the world. That's It's great.
Rob Lee:There you have it, folks. I wanna again thank the impressive Pierre Venue for coming on to the podcast. And I'm Rob Lee saying that there's art, culture, community in and around your neck of the woods. You just gotta look for it.
